Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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Well, Hail is still a strong playstyle. I have got the reqs to save Kyurem by using Ninetales, Arctozolt and Sandslash as my offensive Mons. Had I encountered a Rotom-H, I would have been in big trouble, it stops all of them.
Apart from Hail match-up, Rotom-H does the following:
-Counters most Scizor variants without caring as much as Heatran for losing item, due to having Pain Split.
-Soft checks Kartana, Weavile and Bisharp among others.
-Can run Trick.
- Can scout all Clef sets except the ones that have Trick ( unless it has Trick too).
-Switches into Koko and non Rain Zapdos.
-Switches into Tornadus-T.
-Annoys bulky cores with Pain Split.
- Can switch into some Kyurem sets. If it's Sub Kyurem, can take a hit and Volt Switch to safely send a Dragapult.

Overall, this Mon should definitely stay ranked and B- sounds like right for it.
 

airfare

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as the vr council member who nommed rotom-h up, here's most of my reasoning as to why it's good:

rotom-heat’s offensive typing and access to nasty plot makes it a very very powerful breaker, as we’ve seen all generation. it’s capable of ripping through a lot of common lando-ferro-tran or lando-torn-water (ferroless) defensive cores super easily and has several different options to help deal with both fatter teams and overheat drops with substitute, pain split, volt switch

its defensive typing + levitate makes it the versatile threat that it is, though - being able to switch in comfortably to defensive stuff like lando, tran, clef, and zapdos gives it a lot of opportunities to set up and break. although it's not too hard to wear down, the several resistances and ground immunity give it solid defensive use and bless teams with a lot more room to play around kyurem and melmetal, specifically, as well.

the only matchups where i felt it faltered were against HO, where it doesn't get boosting chances and has less useful defensive use vs most common HO threats. it also struggles to make progress against really fat builds with a toxic bliss/gastro. the slight decrease in dragapult/urshifu usage helped with its general viability too.
SCL - Skypenguin vs Sagiri
 
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Katy

Banned deucer.
What exactly is the heattom rise for? Like somebody else said, it only really checks Zolt.
Rotom-Heat can also check Melmetal, Heatran and can threaten other Steel-types and Flying-types such as Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Tornadus-T. Rotom-Heat is not that bad actually and it can check the two most prominent Ice-types on hyper offensive teams like Alola Ninetales and Arctozolt. Due to them and moreover Corviknight, Heatran, and Landorus-T being on the same team, Heattom can be a great check with Pain Split in its arsenal.

I’m curious as to why Nidoking is still a B+ mon. It just seems like it gets outclassed by other offensive mons due to its mediocre speed and bulk.
Nidoking is still great, especially Substitute versions with 3 Attacks can threaten bulkier teams and Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Flamethrower including its Dual STABs in Earth Power and a strong Sludge Wave it makes Nidoking a formidable breaker. Its bulk might not seem great, but Nidoking is still a great threat to bulkier teams and offensive teams alike. Its Sheer Force + Life Orb boosted attacks are still strong enough to guarantee 2HKOes or even OHKOes which makes it a threatening Pokemon to account for still, especially on teams with little to no answers to Nidoking there should be a way to play around it.
 
Outrageous, disgraceful, absolute travesty. You will be hearing from my lawyers shortly. I’ll make the nom again after the 48 hours tho, my goal is the A ranks by the end of the gen.
As far as questions go:
1. Why did porygon 2 drop? Seems as essential as it’s ever been as a pult check for trick room.
2. Was there any discussion about dropping Slowking further?
 
I agree with most VR rises and drops, but would be great to know more about :

:Tapu Koko: - This drop was a real shocker
:Rillaboom: - I don't know how did it Glide down below B+
:Rotom-Heat: - What has made it hotter in OU?
:Tyranitar: - Why has this OU Rockstar fallen into a Dark canyon?
:Hippowdon: - Why is it losing ground in OU?

Also

:Kyurem: - Why is a mon considered broken by most of the community still frozen in A+? Wasn't there enough pressure to push it to S-Tier?
Finch explained these drops in more detail but to give a quick explaination
Koko is having trouble handling most ground types in ou besides chomp and is having competition as a pivot from Zapdos
Rilla prolly drooped to the recent popularity of dual steel cores
Rotom-H most likely rose due to the popularity of dual steel cores
Sand is just not good rn its two best abusers exca and zolt aren’t very good in Ou and it faces steep completion from other weathers like rain and hail
 

TailGlowVM

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I'm not a VR team member but I think I've answered most questions below. I haven't quoted everyone as some questions have been asked more than once.
About fucking time Hydreigon dropped. Jesus fucking horse. Anyway, why did Tyranitar and Hippowdon drop?
Tyranitar has very low usage - specially defensive sets are too passive to see much use, and Choice Band struggles to differentiate itself enough from other breakers. Hippowdon is restricted exclusively to balance and stall because of its passivity, and suffers from being extremely easy to pressure.
Why didn't Jirachi rose?
Jirachi checks very little beyond Kyurem and Tapu Lele and is completely passive into common Pokemon like Heatran. Being a Steel-type that's complete food for both Weavile and Dragapult makes most teams with it have pretty big holes defensively as well.
I'm just wondering about the heattom rise and the buzzwole drop. I haven't seen a single heattom on the ladder in weeks and I feel like it doesn't have a real niche right now. Buzzwole was overrated in the past but I feel like it's rising up again with the 3 attacks set as a blanket physical check.
airfare answered about Heattom, but Buzzwole is falling off due to Future Sight getting more prominent again, being very easy to pivot around for most defensive cores, and hating several recently trending Pokemon like Slowbro, Galarian Zapdos and Victini.
:Kyurem: - Why is a mon considered broken by most of the community still frozen in A+? Wasn't there enough pressure to push it to S-Tier?
Is Kyurem really as splashable as Heatran and Dragapult? Most sets need heavy hazard removal support to function, it's easy to revenge kill, and it has several hard counters no matter the set. I won't start an argument here about whether it should be banned or not, there's another thread for that.
serious question, i feel like C+ is too too low for this, is there any reason why it didnt rise higher to at least B?
Most teams are still better off with a different Electric-type like Tapu Koko, Zeraora or Zapdos - Regieleki is a more niche luxury for those teams that really do have sufficient means to pressure all the Grounds well enough to be worth it, like Galarian Zapdos teams.
Why did Excadrill not drop at all but Zolt did? I see no reason why Exca should be two tiers above Zolt especially when they both are primarily sand abusers and Hippo and T-Tar both just dropped as well.
Excadrill benefits from reduced Corviknight and Skarmory usage, and it provides workable defensive utility in checking Pokemon like Tapu Koko, as well as Rapid Spin, unlike Dracozolt.
1. Why did porygon 2 drop? Seems as essential as it’s ever been as a pult check for trick room.
2. Was there any discussion about dropping Slowking further?
1. I assume this is for consistency, since Hatterene dropped as well in a previous update, and both are pretty important for Trick Room. This playstyle has had pretty low usage after its spike around OLT.
2. Assault Vest is probably keeping Slowking in B rank for now - this makes it a better Heatran and Tapu Lele check, and unlike Galarian Slowking it has Dragon Tail to make it harder to pivot around.
 

Finchinator

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About fucking time Hydreigon dropped. Jesus fucking horse.
You ok there? :blobastonished:
Anyway, why did Tyranitar and Hippowdon drop?
Sand teams are not particularly common right now and the defensive niche of these Pokemon is not too great relative to prior metagame states. Tyranitar can handle the surging Blacephalon, but otherwise most things can pivot out of it or beat it outright while Hippowdon's passivity handcuffs teams with it many times.
Why didn't Jirachi rose?
This one was a closer vote I believe, but checking Tapu Lele and Kyurem can only go so far when Scizor fulfills the niche with a slightly more practical presence and Jirachi enables a ton of common Pokemon that pose major threats.
I'm just wondering about the heattom rise and the buzzwole drop. I haven't seen a single heattom on the ladder in weeks and I feel like it doesn't have a real niche right now. Buzzwole was overrated in the past but I feel like it's rising up again with the 3 attacks set as a blanket physical check.
Rotom-H rose a slight subrank in the lower ranks as people have been using it for Ice moves and the fact that it did really well on teams reliant on Landorus-T for Electrics, but ultimately it is still pretty mediocre and it's still lower overall. Hail is also a big plus match-up for Rotom-H, so we can use that and being an actual Melmetal check as further evidence for slightly increased viability, imo.

Buzzwole is still pretty good, but Future Sight is all over and teams are running a lot more Knock Off, Toxic, etc. to abuse it coming in on things it would handle, which make it harder to maintain Buzzwole while making progress in the long haul.
I agree with most VR rises and drops, but would be great to know more about :

:Tapu Koko: - This drop was a real shocker
:Rillaboom: - I don't know how did it Glide down below B+
Tapu Koko was already fringe A/A+. The screens sets have fallen off the face of the Earth, Choice Specs is remarkably inconsistent, and pivot sets are just not enough alone to carry it to A+. Koko is still great at setting terrain and opening the door for teammates, but it is usually doing just that until much later in the game when Grounds and/or Grasses are weakened and things like Slowking-Galar are removed altogether. As a pivot, Tapu Koko is great for sure, but this alone just does not carry it to A+ right now.

Rillaboom has been pretty bad for a while. Grass Glide is for sure great, but so many things soft check Rillaboom and it provides virtually nothing defensively, which makes it only a fit on specific offenses with support. Hawlucha pairs better with Tapu Koko and even Tapu Fini right now, so the scope of Rillaboom is already limited, but making it less effective standalone was another big hit and the time of Rillaboom being an OU staple are far behind us unfortunately.
:Rotom-Heat: - What has made it hotter in OU?
:Tyranitar: - Why has this OU Rockstar fallen into a Dark canyon?
:Hippowdon: - Why is it losing ground in OU?
Already asked in posts right above and, as I said, please no repeats.

Also

:Kyurem: - Why is a mon considered broken by most of the community still frozen in A+? Wasn't there enough pressure to push it to S-Tier?
Brokenness and viability are not the same thing and the correlation is minimal, if even existent. Kyurem still has a handful of barriers towards using it often and building with it in general. We spent a number of posts on this last update, so I am not going to beat a dead horse, but we have seen things in the low A or B ranks suspected before and we have seen Pokemon seeing sub-10% usage (or even in UU, if you go back a few generations) banned before, so the argument for any given suspect being S rank simply is not there.
 

Finchinator

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What's the morale for Rotom-Heat? I haven't really seen it be used outside of teams absolutely needing Arctozolt counterplay. Also, the Koko drop is weird, what was the agreement for that if you wouldn't mind going into detail?
Already asked @ both of them and, as I said, please no repeats. See my last post for the answers.
What exactly is the heattom rise for? Like somebody else said, it only really checks Zolt.
Again already asked and, as I said, please no repeats. See my last post for answers.
I’m curious as to why Nidoking is still a B+ mon. It just seems like it gets outclassed by other offensive mons due to its mediocre speed and bulk.
It is fringe B+, but it is cool that it abuses Fairy types and is a special attacker that can really damage Slowking-Galar, which is pretty unique right now. I think that the less we see slower balances, the worse off Nidoking is, but they still pop up sometimes. BO teams being more common absolutely lead me to believe it is going to see B in the near future, but cannot be sure.
Why did Excadrill not drop at all but Zolt did? I see no reason why Exca should be two tiers above Zolt especially when they both are primarily sand abusers and Hippo and T-Tar both just dropped as well.
Excadrill can Rapid Spin, be a lead on hyper offensive teams, and has the Steel typing + an Electric immunity to at least provide a disruptive defensive presence. Dracozolt lacks those tools to back it up as a fit on Sand teams. Neither is very good right now, but Excadrill is slightly more practical at the moment and we dropped it multiple times recently, so it was not needed to bottom out further yet.
Outrageous, disgraceful, absolute travesty. You will be hearing from my lawyers shortly. I’ll make the nom again after the 48 hours tho, my goal is the A ranks by the end of the gen.
As far as questions go:
1. Why did porygon 2 drop? Seems as essential as it’s ever been as a pult check for trick room.
2. Was there any discussion about dropping Slowking further?
Trick Room teams have been less consistent with more Protect/Baneful Bunker and other hyper offenses seeing more usage, but we made it clear to still have P2 ranked for the sake of that niche.

Yes, but it did not quite have the votes as there is still a clear and distinguishable niche for it.
serious question, i feel like C+ is too too low for this, is there any reason why it didnt rise higher to at least B?
It is still really only viable, let alone consistent, with large amounts of support such as Zapdos-Galar abusing Landorus-T. It is a very lackluster hazard remover due to how fragile it is and how it loses to many common hazard setters such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Heatran, etc. and there's not much else going for it either. It is true a couple of teams make use of this strategy, but until it has a larger niche, it is hard to see it all the way up in B.
What are the reasons for Tyranitar and Buzzwole dropping?
Both already answered and, as I said, no repeat questions. Read my last post for the explanations.
why did ttar dropped and why clef is still a it is the worst in A
Former is already answered and, as I said, no repeat questions.

Clefable is one of the few status soakers in the metagame and it provides a huge amount of utility between potentially removing items, setting rocks, clearing status, passing Wishes, etc. all while being a soft check to Kyurem, strong check to Dragapult, and making teams a lot less reliant on Defog/Rapid Spin. Clefable's usage is still pretty high and while some cores can take advantage of it, many teammates help dissuade this problem. Clefable is still a very good Pokemon in the tier and had minimal, if any, support to drop right now.
Although I disagree with a couple of these, whats the reasoning behind Glowking and Bulu drops in particular?
You're entitled to disagree; this is just the summation of the votes from the council of players who actively play the metagame and follow the trends. You, of course, can feel your own way and that is the beauty of posting in threads like these and having our own playstyles. I hope you share your stances when the thread opens to nominations!

Slowking-Galar is still really solid, but a lot of offenses are going physical heavy with Dragapult as the most common special attacker while balance builds have been using Slowbro with different specially defensive presences more and more. Slowking-Galar still does a great job and this was a fringe drop honestly, so I could see it bouncing back, but for now it is closer to A than A+.

Tapu Bulu just does not see much usage or have much niche. It is really strong and hard to switch into when it runs offensive sets, but it is slow, does not provide much defensively, and reliant on support. You have to go well out of your way to build with it, which is a big ask for a Pokemon that is already pretty average.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
You ok there? :blobastonished:
Just peachy :blobpex:

Was wondering if it would be alright to ask for more info on why Terrakion dropped? What other factors added to its drop? I mean, it's not really too different from other breakers in the part about being revenge killed by every offensive threat and it shreds defense with its sd + life orb set with just megahorn, stone miss and close combat
 

Finchinator

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Was wondering if it would be alright to ask for more info on why Terrakion dropped? What other factors added to its drop? I mean, it's not really too different from other breakers in the part about being revenge killed by every offensive threat and it shreds defense with its sd + life orb set with just megahorn, stone miss and close combat
Terrakion never really gets free turns. For example, every single one of the top 21 Pokemon (S, A+, and A ranks) can 2HKO it with standard sets and it only outruns and OHKOs 4-5 of them.

SD 3a is much, much better on paper than in practice because of this. When Terrakion kept getting posted about I was really confused because most of the arguments were focused on pretty impractical things, not highlighting Terrakion in practice so much as just discussing it on paper. There was minimal actual evidence and it clearly did not translate -- it's not close to OU via usage and there are no high ladder/tournament sightings of it in recent memory.

The vote for it to drop was pretty lopsided despite the initial nominations being for it to rise.
 
I'm just curious about :gengar:, :aegislash:, and :urshifu-rapid-strike:. Did the council discuss these three? I thought that as :blacephalon: has just risen a subrank, maybe the other Ghost-types would be discussed too. And :urshifu-rapid-strike: dropped in the last slate, so I'd like to know how is the meta for it right now. Thanks in advance.
 

Finchinator

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I'm just curious about :gengar:, :aegislash:, and :urshifu-rapid-strike:. Did the council discuss these three? I thought that as :blacephalon: has just risen a subrank, maybe the other Ghost-types would be discussed too. And :urshifu-rapid-strike: dropped in the last slate, so I'd like to know how is the meta for it right now. Thanks in advance.
Those other ghosts types did not see nearly as much usage or discussion , so not really. There is not much more to say on then right now.

Urshifu is still a strong option, it’s just a bit support reliant with Slowbro and Toxapex being common.
 

ausma

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I'm just curious about :gengar:, :aegislash:, and :urshifu-rapid-strike:. Did the council discuss these three? I thought that as :blacephalon: has just risen a subrank, maybe the other Ghost-types would be discussed too. And :urshifu-rapid-strike: dropped in the last slate, so I'd like to know how is the meta for it right now. Thanks in advance.
I did bring up Aegislash in the voting slate as I’ve seen it as a really underrated threat for a while, though it was voted unanimously barring my vote to be kept in B. It, alongside Gengar, hasn't had any high level breakout usage; in Aegislash’s case its speed tier and exploitability by Dragapult when not using King’s Shield can be a problem for more dedicated offensive sets and makes it harder to get value against offensive teams with.

Gengar also has a hard time setting up and you get a lot more value out of Blacephalon’s access to Beast Boost which curbstomps bulkier structures, and its secondary Fire STAB which forces out Steel-types often used to check Ghost-types, is a decent alternative to Shadow Ball in levels of spammability, and has no immunities barring Heatran which doesn’t comfortably soak a Shadow Ball at all.
 
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