Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Katy]

Why is Blissey only B+ rank ?

Blissey is atm only B+ as there other Pokemon which can check certain threats without being so passibe as Blissey is, as Blissey only relies on Toxic and Seismic Toss damage. Specially defensive walls such as Heatran, Landorus-T, Clefable, Scizor, Assault Vest Melmetal, Assault Vest Tornadus-T, and other Pokemon with a good stats to stomach hits such as Corviknight, Toxapex, ferrothorn, and Tapu Fini make Blissey less reasonable to use, as all of them can stomach hits from Volcarona even at +1, from Choice Specs Dragapult, Choice Specs Kyurem and different Tapu Lele versions. Galarian Slowking also does a wonderful job in this aspect. All of these Pokemon, which I named, are less passive and drain out less momentum. Blissey is also easy explotable as Taunt + Toxic + Magma Trap Heatran is very prevelant atm and can help in wearing down Blissey pretty well. Whirlpool versions of Tau Fini alongside Nature's Madness are also very relevant and can deal with Blissey.

There are also a lot of team structures with more than only 1 Steel-type and they're backed up with a Water-type in Tapu Fini or Toxapex and Gorund / Flying-type like Landorus-T or Tornadus-T, which is usually more than enough to deal with the relevant top threats at the moment. Therefore Blissey is less valuable at the moment, but it still can do its job decently well, but it is in my eyes not a A- or A Pokemon. B+ is a reasonable ranking for it at the moment.

Hopefully that helped :)

 

[Mushroom-Flower]

Ok, I understand, thanks you !
So... I was searching for a pokemon that can check the different set of Dragapult, first of all I've taked Blissey, but I think I should take a pokemon like Heatran to complete my defensive core, is that ok ? (with Toxapex and Tangrowth physicaly defensive)

 

[Katy]

Ok, I understand, thanks you !
So... I was searching for a pokemon that can check the different set of Dragapult, first of all I've taked Blissey, but I think I should take a pokemon like Heatran to complete my defensive core, is that ok ? (with Toxapex and Tangrowth physicaly defensive)

I think the best way to get answers to your questions is posting here in this thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3656259/ when you have more questions about the metagame, the pokemon, and sets :)

 

[Snowy]

Hello fellow ou connoisseurs, today I have come to deliver some fresh takes from the crustiest crustacean in the sea. To give some credit to my findings, I have been lurking high ladder (even stealing first occasionally from storm zone before he shoots up one million points!!!) and watching a decent amount of tournament games. With that said, here is what my withered brain has put together:

Rises

Corviknight A+ to S-

Metal bird is on just about everything and for good reason. It's the only defogger in the tier that can actually come in on both rocks lando and chomp, without getting toxiced. This alone to me is a huge factor for its potency, but it kinda just fogs on everything else in the tier too (outside of heatran). I think without a doubt it's the best defogger in the tier, coupled with its great defensive utility and its ongoing success in both tour and ladder, it should join the other big boys in -S.

Tornadus A+ to S-

Two picks for S-??? I know, how dare I, but not metal bird is top 3 most obnoxious Pokemon to face right now. With the sheer versatility and effectiveness of all it's sets and varieties on them, it is extremely painful to deal with. AV can literally sit in on Koko as well as kyurem and click knock, taunt nasty plot will rip every fat team apart not carrying a Koko or lucky enough to dodge, it's standard fog set makes it the second best defogger and taunt 3 attack shuts down fat while providing defensive utility. This isn't even mentioning some of the cool utility options like toxic, that put usual hard stops like Koko and zap on a timer. I could honestly crap on about the endless variations this thing has and how annoying it is to face, but id like to finish this post today. Raise big bird up to the big boy leagues!

Ferrothorn A to A+

Another member of my top 3 most obnoxious mons makes my list for a rise and I think it should be clear why. This mfer never fucking dies, spreads it seed like a Mormon father, throws some Legos up to stab your bros and does all this while walling a sizable chunk of the metagame, need I say more?

Kyurem A to A+

This rounds off my trio of the three most obnoxious mons to face in Ou right now and it should be clear to anyone whose watched a tournament game or jumped on ladder how insanely good and deserving of a raise this cunt is. This mfer has especially been carving up scl with its fat ass nevermelt 3 attack set among other variation. Literally just go open up a replay thread and watch a game with this thing in it, 9/10 times it fucking ripping and tearing.

Slowbro B+ to A-

Slowbro is the best and one of the only answers defensive measures to the combination of urshifu + future sight in the tier, this alone for me deserves a rise, given how common and good the glowking + urshifu core is. Slowbro is not just limited to this niche defensive role either, it's ability to take on huge threats like melmetal (contributing to a resurgence in protect toxic), landorus, garchomp, buzzwole and funnily enough weavile with its colbur berry set. Besides it's defensive prowess, we're all very familiar with the effectiveness of future-port, which greatly supports offensive Pokemon. All these factors to me, make it very deserving of a raise to A-.

Victini B+ to A- / A

I highly doubt this mon hasn't been extensively talked about for a raise already and this is more of a supporting comment than anything. This thing has been vastly better than everything else in B+ for a hot minute and deserves that raise, if not 2 raises.

Drops

Azumarill C+ to C-

I don't really see what niche Azumarill has in this meta, every set it has is either vastly outclassed or bad. Choice band is significantly inferior to hoth crawdaunt and urshifu, crawdaunt actually being able to break past just about anything in the tier and urshifu being much faster and having access to U-turn. If CB were to have a niche, it would be that players might feels more obligated to stay in and attack assuming it's belly drum. Speaking of which, belly drum is a set that has very few games were it's actually capable of doing anything, do to the abundance of faster resists / mons that can take its +6. On top of this, it really finds it hard to just get a belly drum off, with many of the top tier mons stopping it or being able to stay in and chip it to minimise damages to a minimum. The only other set this thing has is whirlpool and tapu fini exists lol.

Alakazam C- to UR

I cannot remember the last time I've seen this thing on high ladder or competitive play, the answer might honestly be never. Unfortunately without its mega giving it the crucial speed boost it needs to outspeed some of the tiers most prolific mons, it becomes easily revenged killed. The lack of additional bulk and ability to not be knocked off stops it from setting up on things like clefable, like it could previously do. While focus sash avoids some of the issues with being rid easily, it's pathetically weak and it's only hope of doing any meaningful damage is via counter, which mons like melmetal and weavile can circumvent with their multi hit moves. I think I've talked way too much about a mon not worth using, let alone mentioning, so I think I'll leave it there.

Ribombee C- to UR

Webs is already a very fringe pick play style and shuckle is the vastly superior setter and only one actually seen in competitive play. I don't think I should have to say more than this, so I'll leave it here.

Uxie C- to UR

I'm sorry Omari P, no amount of larping can make me believe this mon has any viable niche. Trickroom has basically been worked out to a science at this point and unfortunately uxie isn't apart of the formula. In the land where I Huff too much paint thinners at work, not even I can hallucinate using a set up set over mew.

Haxorus C- to UR

I have outright not seen this mon in months and when I did see it months ago on that one veil ho tricking used, It felt fairly underwhelming. To keep it brief, I think it's vastly outclassed by just about every other set up breaker and especially it's direct dragon competitor, chomp.

I'm going to leave this here for tonight, although I do have some more mons I think to raise (g zap, g molt, toad and zera) and some I think should drop (Mandi, slowking, pert and some more). I kinda want to wait to see if the meta evolves or changes any more to make those comments, plus it's late and getting into a war with Omari-p about his favorite bird does not sound ideal. This crustacean must now scuttle back to his hole to sleep.

 

[Ctann]

I always have a laugh when I see someone suggest garchomp should be anything lower than A+..



the current meta means it is literally the best offensive Pokémon you can have.

there is no other offensive Pokémon at the top of the viability that pull weight against every single matchup

Even garchomps hardest matchup: hail, can have some serious weight pulled. The threat of bolt beak immunity discourages electric spam, it can check the frequent u turn support ice teams need and finally a lot of the Pokémon ice teams like to use dislike it’s ground stab and its coverage options.

Here’s some replays to show why garchomp is simply great (all replays are 1900+, so these are experienced players, and you can see the weight garchomp pulls)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1415092842

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1424467286

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1424070460-4ku7jlj5bkvi41glvw334ohwwnlno2fpw

Just to prove my point, I almost beat storm zones sun fire team (he is currently rank 1, I am rank 2 as I write this) with my grass spam team . Mostly of the sheer pressure garchomp put. Wish I saved that replay ! Volcarona was the ultimate wincon and lost to a crit , but garchomp moved the needle and kept the pressure up.

bonus: replay supporting heracross to C+, I really think rankings should be based on how well Pokémon can pull weight… currently it seems like it’s mostly based on how user friendly the Pokémon is

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1416354086


—

honestly I think garchomp is S- it is the best user of STAB earthquake , and doesn’t need anything more than a rock type move for coverage. A lot of team structures let it sweep with one misplay or one side effect such as a crit, flinch etc.in games where the opponent has a good anti-chomp team, it has massive defensive utility, more than any other offensive Pokémon. I’ve brought it up before, whether it’s an anti-electric switch in, a corviknight into <80% chipper, an anti hyper offense, a Volcarona check, the best setup on wincon mew, or a tornadus therian knock off switch in. There’s so much utility. I can elaborate on any of those.

also… How many offensive Pokémon can single handedly threaten an entire weather!! Even Rillaboom hates the zapdos or tornadus on every rain team!

forget weather teams, garchomp can almost single handedly deal with every HO Pokémon, none of them can set up easily or deal with it at +2 except rarer ones like cloyster. The most common lead, mew, needs ice beam or usually garchomp will sweep out 2-3 threats before it goes down.

Novices run fire fang, and get dissapointed when people outplay it with simple pivot cores like fini/landorus. Fire fang is cool as a tech or to bait in steel birds, don’t expect it to sweep. The problem is all good players will scout for fire moves and have backup.

—

Probably controversial, but my hot take is garchomp is much more meta defining than Weavile right now. Weavile will be more of an S Pokémon once big bird gets more use. Tornadus-therian really isn’t being used enough…

—



another possibly controversial nom..

Rillaboom is straight A+ material mostly due to the terrain support it provides.

banded sets are so February , right now the hottest set is the miracle seed + SD + wood hammer. It hits almost EVERY benchmark the life orb set hits, except metal birds!!! And really, if youre playing mixed teams regularly, metal birds shouldn’t be your main concern.

terrain changing should be your main concern , because this Pokémon provides excellent passive support to soo many Pokémon! My favourite is the synergy with physically defensive Slowking-G. Since it also loves switching in on Rillaboom checks and generally just disrupting teams.

to be on topic, and explain why miracle seed is so useful:

1. firstly, the lack of losing HP on every hit means you can switch in and out more easily, especially on things like zeraora. And we all know the higher up the ELO chain you go, the more you need the flexibility to switch.
2. Secondly, without any swords dance boost, wood hammer and grassy glide do cool things. For example all clefable variants are 2HKOd even leftovers+protect. The most common landorus sets are 2HKOd, this is awesome if your team structure encourages the opponent to lead with Lando, as you get to maim it to 50% on the first turn. Offensive variants of big bird are KOd by a wood hammer on the switch, followed by a grassy glide.
3. Thirdly.. I mentioned bench marks. Let’s look at the most important ones, annoying ones and faster ones, visualised:
   1. clean OHKO at +2
   2. most common sets are cleanly OHKOd at +1. 2HKO at -1
   3. clean OHKO at +2 if it has pivoted into stealth rock twice
   4. some less bulky variants are cleanly OHKO’d at +2 if they have had their boots knocked off and come in on stealth rock. At +0, if rocks are active and tornadus has no boots, wood hammer followed by grassy glide will always do enough to KO
   5. even the bulkiest variants struggle to take a +2 glide.
   6. at +2, drain punch will heal rillaboom up from any hit, not including a banded knock off that crits. If Rillaboom carries Knock off instead it will lose
   7. if you’re healing up with drain punch , and not using superpower or losing life orb recoil, then rocky helmets and iron barbs can’t get you into range for the ice shard revenge.
   8. it can’t revenge that’s for sure, it can’t OHKO at +1 and grassy is a clean 2HKO even when it’s +1 defence.
   9. most sets can only check Rillaboom if they switch into stealth rock once or packing boots, +2 grassy is a clean OHKO at 50%
   10. it can’t ko you if you’re healthy, but terrain resets suck
   11. this is an interesting one, it really hates a double swords dance followed by the hammer, unless it has good attack investment and/or it needs leech life.
   12. another candidate for a double swords dance! It needs sludge bomb to deal with it faster
   13. the third candidate for a double swords dance, they rarely pack moves that can 2HKO, and you heal back a massive chunk anyway with drain punch.
   14. the terrain reset sucks! Pack a decent check and don’t swords dance incase she switches in.
   15. you will need to wear this threat over a match, as super power is really not worth running for coverage
   16. you can’t beat her no matter what your coverage, it’s either faster than you, or can survive any hit if it’s slower.
   17. you need knock off to have a chance, if you want to lure it, use Rillaboom with Tyranitar
   18. you won’t beat most variants, requires Knick off support
   19. they’ll never lose to Rillaboom unless you run super power and they’re near 50%. But super power is shit vs Pokémon that don’t forfeit momentum. Just take advantage of the easy switch in , and come back in when they’re pressured down some more.

There is also some great synergy in the fact that nearly every good Rillaboom check doesn’t benefit from the terrain (the flying types), whilst almost all counter-checks you then switch in, tend to appreciate the terrain

Corviknight is NOT a hard counter, it is just a very good switch in! Very easy to wear down.

seriously , nearly every fast tempo team will switch in their landorus at some point to soften a potential knock off or u turn. Do you know that miracle seed wood hammer 2hkos the most common landorus sets at -1? How useful is that if you have a koko/Zeraora/volcarona/regileki on your team?!?!?

—

Posting a quick animation here, that visualizes two things:

1. miracle seed helps hit KO benchmarks, woodhammer clean OHKOs landorus and a slow king G
2. The lack of life orb recoil is significant, notice how rillaboom barely survives the recoil from two hammers.

 

[Scarfire]

Hello fellow ou connoisseurs, today I have come to deliver some fresh takes from the crustiest crustacean in the sea. To give some credit to my findings, I have been lurking high ladder (even stealing first occasionally from storm zone before he shoots up one million points!!!) and watching a decent amount of tournament games. With that said, here is what my withered brain has put together:

Rises

Corviknight A+ to S-

Metal bird is on just about everything and for good reason. It's the only defogger in the tier that can actually come in on both rocks lando and chomp, without getting toxiced. This alone to me is a huge factor for its potency, but it kinda just fogs on everything else in the tier too (outside of heatran). I think without a doubt it's the best defogger in the tier, coupled with its great defensive utility and its ongoing success in both tour and ladder, it should join the other big boys in -S.

Tornadus A+ to S-

Two picks for S-??? I know, how dare I, but not metal bird is top 3 most obnoxious Pokemon to face right now. With the sheer versatility and effectiveness of all it's sets and varieties on them, it is extremely painful to deal with. AV can literally sit in on Koko as well as kyurem and click knock, taunt nasty plot will rip every fat team apart not carrying a Koko or lucky enough to dodge, it's standard fog set makes it the second best defogger and taunt 3 attack shuts down fat while providing defensive utility. This isn't even mentioning some of the cool utility options like toxic, that put usual hard stops like Koko and zap on a timer. I could honestly crap on about the endless variations this thing has and how annoying it is to face, but id like to finish this post today. Raise big bird up to the big boy leagues!

Ferrothorn A to A+

Another member of my top 3 most obnoxious mons makes my list for a rise and I think it should be clear why. This mfer never fucking dies, spreads it seed like a Mormon father, throws some Legos up to stab your bros and does all this while walling a sizable chunk of the metagame, need I say more?

Kyurem A to A+

This rounds off my trio of the three most obnoxious mons to face in Ou right now and it should be clear to anyone whose watched a tournament game or jumped on ladder how insanely good and deserving of a raise this cunt is. This mfer has especially been carving up scl with its fat ass nevermelt 3 attack set among other variation. Literally just go open up a replay thread and watch a game with this thing in it, 9/10 times it fucking ripping and tearing.

Slowbro B+ to A-

Slowbro is the best and one of the only answers defensive measures to the combination of urshifu + future sight in the tier, this alone for me deserves a rise, given how common and good the glowking + urshifu core is. Slowbro is not just limited to this niche defensive role either, it's ability to take on huge threats like melmetal (contributing to a resurgence in protect toxic), landorus, garchomp, buzzwole and funnily enough weavile with its colbur berry set. Besides it's defensive prowess, were all very familiar with the effectiveness of future-port, we greatly supports offensive Pokemon. All these factors to me, make it very deserving of a raise to A-.

Victini B+ to A- / A

I highly doubt this mon hasn't been extensively talked about for a raise already and this is more of a supporting comment than anything. This thing has been vastly better than everything else in B+ for a hot minute and deserves that raise, if not 2 raises.

Drops

Azumarill C+ to C-

I don't really see what niche Azumarill has in this meta, every set it has is either vastly outclassed or bad. Choice band is significantly inferior to hoth crawdaunt and urshifu, crawdaunt actually being able to break past just about anything in the tier and urshifu being much faster and having access to U-turn. If CB were to have a niche, it would be that players might feels more obligated to stay in and attack assuming it's belly drum. Speaking of which, belly drum is a set that has very few games were it's actually capable of doing anything, do to the abundance of faster resists / mons that can take its +6. On top of this, it really finds it hard to just get a belly drum off, with many of the top tier mons stopping it or being able to stay in and chip it to minimise damages to a minimum. The only other set this thing has is whirlpool and tapu fini exists lol.

Alakazam C- to UR

I cannot remember the last time I've seen this thing on high ladder or competitive play, the answer might honestly be never. Unfortunately without its mega giving it the crucial speed boost it needs to outspeed some of the tiers most prolific mons, it becomes easily revenged killed. The lack of additional bulk and ability to jot be knocked off stops it from setting up on things like clef able, like it could previously do. While focus sash avoids some of the issues with being rid easily, it's pathetically weak and it's only hope of doing any meaningful damage is via counter, which mons like melmetal and weavile can circumvent with their multi hit moves. I think I've talked way too much about a mon not worth using, let alone mentioning, so I think I'll leave it there.

Ribombee C- to UR

Webs is already a very fringe pick play style and shuckle is the vastly superior setter and only one actually seen in competitive play. I don't think I should have to say more than this, so I'll leave it here.

Uxie C- to UR

I'm sorry Omari P, no amount of larping can make me believe this mon has any viable niche. Trickroom has basically been worked out to a science at this point and unfortunately uxie isn't about of the formula. In the land where I Huff too much paint thinners at work, not even I can hallucinate using a set up set over mew.

Haxorus C- to UR

I have outright not seen this mon in months and when I did see it months ago on that one veil ho tricking used, It felt fairly underwhelming. To keep it brief, I think it's vastly outclassed by just about every other set up breaker and especially it's direct dragon competitor, chomp.

I'm going to leave this here for tonight, although I do have some more mons I think to raise (g zap, g molt, toad and zera) and some I think should drop (Mandi, slowking, pert and some more). I kinda want to wait to see if the meta evolves or changes any more to make those comments, plus it's late and getting into a war with Omari-p about his favorite bird does not sound ideal. This crustacean must now scuttle back to his hole to sleep.


View attachment 374718

4 noms I want to disagree with. The first two being the S- rises. The S ranks have always been the meta-definers in their sheer ability to warp the metagame around them. Lando does this by being on like nearly every single team and just monopolizing the role it has by being the best at it in the tier, whereas Dragapult, Weavile, and Heatran do it by having very little checks and being super spammable on lots of playstyles. I really dont feel like Torn or Corv do this, both restricted to pretty much just balance or fatter playstyles, and almost always just play fog-turn roles, which Lando can do better on more teams. Yes these mons are amazing, but they don't really shape OU or feel like must-haves or must-be-answered like the current S's. Speaking of rises to S-, gonna nom up something myself in a post later today/tmr hopefully.

The 3rd disagreement I have, is the Zam unranked. Alakazam has won me its slew of games at high ladder literally this week, claiming above top 10 pretty cleanly. Its speed tier under Torn is often a turn off, but with how many people current min-max Torn's speed to just hit above 350 on ladder, its almost never an answer. Paired with Psychic Terrain this mon is a menace and can just plow through Leles few and far beyond checks. The mon is almost completely unwalled, its only defensive answer being missing focus blasts really. Naturally, it isn't perfect or going to be defining the OU meta, but its absolutely good enough to be C- at worst, and even as I look through the VR right now, I'd easily use this mon over anything C+ and below. If anything, I'd call for a rise on it.

Lastly, Haxorus. This mon was on a handful of HO builds throughout OLT ladder. While it may not be now what it was then, it still showed its viability and potency vs the OU metagame with the right build around it. Not a perfect mon, but it simply having a decent niche goes entirely against the point of unranking it.

 

[AM]

Zam is truthfully not very good cause stuff like Corv/Torn exist but its Life Orb variant is still strong, I've used it on a couple of non-terrain builds but unfortunately it being so reliant on Focus Blast hitting is a big detriment because it's the only way it's able to break Corv. It's also a bit of a momentum sap against anything faster than it and in this format the majority of those barring like standard Koko is either close to or in range of KO'ing it. The sash variant is too weak personally at that point you're walled by half the tier and I've always felt like the terrain type builds for Zam were a bit gimmicky, especially because the other Psychics in the format have more utility. Idk about unranking it, anything below B ranks is a meme anyways, but raising something that gets like no real use doesn't make much sense either.

 

[Scarfire]

Zam is truthfully not very good cause stuff like Corv/Torn exist but its Life Orb variant is still strong, I've used it on a couple of non-terrain builds but unfortunately it being so reliant on Focus Blast hitting is a big detriment because it's the only way it's able to break Corv. It's also a bit of a momentum sap against anything faster than it and in this format the majority of those barring like standard Koko is either close to or in range of KO'ing it. The sash variant is too weak personally at that point you're walled by half the tier and I've always felt like the terrain type builds for Zam were a bit gimmicky, especially because the other Psychics in the format have more utility. Idk about unranking it, anything below B ranks is a meme anyways, but raising something that gets like no real use doesn't make much sense either.

The raise was mostly just a talking point to say it is better than and has more of a use than majority of the C+ through C- mons, so to suggest it is unranked was ridiculous.

Anyways, to avoid a 1 liner. Nom time.

-> S-

This nom is a little hard to make based off this things horrendous SCL winrate currently, but we'll chop that up to it just being too early in the season or bad luck. Anyways, this mon is very devastating right now and I'm inclined to say it feels stronger than Weavile does. All its checks are shaky at best and beyond stall every play-style falls victim to its strength. I especially want to highlight banded with thunder punch. Its only "counters" including Pex and Fini get absolutely decimated by band tpunch, and while pex does live it pretty easily, you out-damage regenerator quite a bit. With rocks up, I believe one thunder punch into Pex now keeps it too low to switch into 2 strikes later, making it a pretty simple (not always easy) task to overwhelm it. Bulky Offences tend to often run helmet mons or just pivoting around ferro-lando to beat it, but then the issue of protective pads sets just dominating those builds comes into play. As for more HO/Breaker heavy offences, well, if Urshifu manages to come in on anything slower than it (or something like Weavile) then a mon is going to die. Only defensive checks I haven't brought up so far is Dragonite and Slowbro. Slowbro suffers the same as Pex does vs thunder punch sets and is also just U-turn prey early game. Dragonite has to pray Urshifu isn't ice punch, but even If it isn't, u-turning on the Dnite, breaking multi and forcing it out with something else just leaves it vulnerable for later. Now then, obvious breaking potential aside, lets also touch on the defensive utility it tends to bring to teams. Being a pivot on mons like Lando, Melmetal, and Weavile almost without care is such a strong role to play in this tie, and itt can also be ballsy vs Heatrans in a lot of matchups, just keeping momentum Ain its favour and forcing progress for itself. Only stall really doesn't let it do anything, namely ones w/protect shedinja.

TLDR: Hard to check defensively, has its way easily offensively, very difficult in the builder, very difficult in game.

 

[FreshJuice]

Hello fellow ou connoisseurs, today I have come to deliver some fresh takes from the crustiest crustacean in the sea. To give some credit to my findings, I have been lurking high ladder (even stealing first occasionally from storm zone before he shoots up one million points!!!) and watching a decent amount of tournament games. With that said, here is what my withered brain has put together:

Rises

Corviknight A+ to S-

Metal bird is on just about everything and for good reason. It's the only defogger in the tier that can actually come in on both rocks lando and chomp, without getting toxiced. This alone to me is a huge factor for its potency, but it kinda just fogs on everything else in the tier too (outside of heatran). I think without a doubt it's the best defogger in the tier, coupled with its great defensive utility and its ongoing success in both tour and ladder, it should join the other big boys in -S.

Tornadus A+ to S-

Two picks for S-??? I know, how dare I, but not metal bird is top 3 most obnoxious Pokemon to face right now. With the sheer versatility and effectiveness of all it's sets and varieties on them, it is extremely painful to deal with. AV can literally sit in on Koko as well as kyurem and click knock, taunt nasty plot will rip every fat team apart not carrying a Koko or lucky enough to dodge, it's standard fog set makes it the second best defogger and taunt 3 attack shuts down fat while providing defensive utility. This isn't even mentioning some of the cool utility options like toxic, that put usual hard stops like Koko and zap on a timer. I could honestly crap on about the endless variations this thing has and how annoying it is to face, but id like to finish this post today. Raise big bird up to the big boy leagues!

Ferrothorn A to A+

Another member of my top 3 most obnoxious mons makes my list for a rise and I think it should be clear why. This mfer never fucking dies, spreads it seed like a Mormon father, throws some Legos up to stab your bros and does all this while walling a sizable chunk of the metagame, need I say more?

Kyurem A to A+

This rounds off my trio of the three most obnoxious mons to face in Ou right now and it should be clear to anyone whose watched a tournament game or jumped on ladder how insanely good and deserving of a raise this cunt is. This mfer has especially been carving up scl with its fat ass nevermelt 3 attack set among other variation. Literally just go open up a replay thread and watch a game with this thing in it, 9/10 times it fucking ripping and tearing.

Slowbro B+ to A-

Slowbro is the best and one of the only answers defensive measures to the combination of urshifu + future sight in the tier, this alone for me deserves a rise, given how common and good the glowking + urshifu core is. Slowbro is not just limited to this niche defensive role either, it's ability to take on huge threats like melmetal (contributing to a resurgence in protect toxic), landorus, garchomp, buzzwole and funnily enough weavile with its colbur berry set. Besides it's defensive prowess, we're all very familiar with the effectiveness of future-port, which greatly supports offensive Pokemon. All these factors to me, make it very deserving of a raise to A-.

Victini B+ to A- / A

I highly doubt this mon hasn't been extensively talked about for a raise already and this is more of a supporting comment than anything. This thing has been vastly better than everything else in B+ for a hot minute and deserves that raise, if not 2 raises.

Drops

Azumarill C+ to C-

I don't really see what niche Azumarill has in this meta, every set it has is either vastly outclassed or bad. Choice band is significantly inferior to hoth crawdaunt and urshifu, crawdaunt actually being able to break past just about anything in the tier and urshifu being much faster and having access to U-turn. If CB were to have a niche, it would be that players might feels more obligated to stay in and attack assuming it's belly drum. Speaking of which, belly drum is a set that has very few games were it's actually capable of doing anything, do to the abundance of faster resists / mons that can take its +6. On top of this, it really finds it hard to just get a belly drum off, with many of the top tier mons stopping it or being able to stay in and chip it to minimise damages to a minimum. The only other set this thing has is whirlpool and tapu fini exists lol.

Alakazam C- to UR

I cannot remember the last time I've seen this thing on high ladder or competitive play, the answer might honestly be never. Unfortunately without its mega giving it the crucial speed boost it needs to outspeed some of the tiers most prolific mons, it becomes easily revenged killed. The lack of additional bulk and ability to not be knocked off stops it from setting up on things like clefable, like it could previously do. While focus sash avoids some of the issues with being rid easily, it's pathetically weak and it's only hope of doing any meaningful damage is via counter, which mons like melmetal and weavile can circumvent with their multi hit moves. I think I've talked way too much about a mon not worth using, let alone mentioning, so I think I'll leave it there.

Ribombee C- to UR

Webs is already a very fringe pick play style and shuckle is the vastly superior setter and only one actually seen in competitive play. I don't think I should have to say more than this, so I'll leave it here.

Uxie C- to UR

I'm sorry Omari P, no amount of larping can make me believe this mon has any viable niche. Trickroom has basically been worked out to a science at this point and unfortunately uxie isn't apart of the formula. In the land where I Huff too much paint thinners at work, not even I can hallucinate using a set up set over mew.

Haxorus C- to UR

I have outright not seen this mon in months and when I did see it months ago on that one veil ho tricking used, It felt fairly underwhelming. To keep it brief, I think it's vastly outclassed by just about every other set up breaker and especially it's direct dragon competitor, chomp.

I'm going to leave this here for tonight, although I do have some more mons I think to raise (g zap, g molt, toad and zera) and some I think should drop (Mandi, slowking, pert and some more). I kinda want to wait to see if the meta evolves or changes any more to make those comments, plus it's late and getting into a war with Omari-p about his favorite bird does not sound ideal. This crustacean must now scuttle back to his hole to sleep.


View attachment 374718

I disagree with all the drops except uxie. Ribombee is a better webs setter, if you are considering webs the "dead playstyle" none of the setters should be having a nich in ou this point of time. At least ribombee can spread paras ot even qd but shuckle does nothing. Alakazam is bad thats for sure if you are arguing that its worse than mons like zard?!?!. It hates that corv is rising but it can pull of a few w. Haxorous is like a mini chomp but with more power less bulk. And it resists rilla's glise instead. But its far worse.



+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 305-360 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 304-359 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 373-441 (104.4 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus in Grassy Terrain: 195-229 (66.5 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

 

[Kazt_5]

Here comes another post because why not! This one is more to just highlight a couple things. I won't be talking about any mons I've already discussed recently.

Rises:

from A+ to S- I think there's no denying Fini is one of the more versatile mons in the meta. Featuring sets like Calm Mind, Scarf, Whirlpool, Taunt and even Defog this mon perform every single one of those to great success making it fairly unpredictable. It is one of the most prominent checks to mons like Weavile and Urshifu which are very present, and can even go with the Spdef option to be a check to Dragapult and other special attackers. The support it brings to teams with misty terrain is also very important letting teammates like Urshifu and Weavile click their multi hits move on mons like Zapdos without being worried, being overall support for mons that hate toxic like Buzzwole and Garchomp and fast teammates not having to worry about Thunder Wave. It is highly effective and relatively easy to play, so for this reasons and more I think is easy to see why Fini is deserving of S-.

from A to A+ Lele is disgusting and that's about it. Hits everything incredibly hard and there are very few if any reliable switch in to this mon. Slowking-galar drops to psyschock with very little chip, Corviknight have to remain at full health all match to really check this mon as with some chip this mon can be 2HKO by psychic, Melmetal, Ferrothorn and Heatran doesn't have that good recovery and take too much from a well placed Focus Blast and even take a good chunk from psychic alone. This mon lowkey is what people say Kyurem is. No switch ins and every wrong guess makes you lose a lot. Can even drop one of its moves to fit Thunderbolt for Corviknight and Toxapex if you feel like it or fit Future Sight to gives the team an easier time breaking. A lot of Leles have started to run Choice Scarf to get the upperhand against Dragapult, Arctozolt and other faster mons. Plus the value of having psychic terrain on your side is fairly underrated giving you a way to deal with priority and sweep with your fast mons / weather abusers or even for itself when using Choice Scarf. So yeah Tapu Lele is very strong and should rise.

from A to A+ very good all around defensive mon. It can gives you checks from everything you need that isn't a fire type. One of the easiest mons to set up hazards and spread up Knock Up. Every time it's in it can annoy the opponent clicking leech seed making it harder for the rival to act as they please without Ferrothorn getting healthier or losing a fair amount of health until you switch giving it a deceptively high sustainability. It can contest the rocks staying up against a Corviknight which most mons can't do or throw a leech seed and make it easier for teammate to enter more safely on a defogging Corv. It's steel type and stats gives it a very good match up against most offensive mons as just its presence in the team makes the opponent have to guess what move to use or get chipped from iron barbs or the attack just get completely eaten by Ferro. This pokemon gives a good match up against both Rain and Hail which is very important in this meta and it have a good time being a role compressing mon thanks to its attributes. The overall value this mon gives I think is enough to warrant a rise.


Drops:

from A+ to A This one makes me sad because I love Garchomp but I can't ignore the fact that it have gotten worse over time. At this point in time and for a while now, Landorus-T have been monopolizing the ground type market, overshadowing Garchomp in almost every aspect but most importantly, the presence of Lando gives Garchomp a hard time existing by being a very reliable check with intimidate and immunity to Earthquake. Garchomp is a mon that for the time being have a somewhat hard time breaking and / or sweeping with the overpresence of Landorus, Corviknight, Weavile and Dragapult without mentioning the rise of hail and almost every team having an ice type move to deal with Landorus, Garchomp and Dragonite. At this time Garchomp is seen very often using a defensive set be it with rocky helmet or leftovers paired with toxic as the offensive route have a hard time doing what it wants to do most of the time. Garchomp is still a very good mon being a solid check to Heatran and Volcarona. And the defensive route is also very solid persuading Urshifu from Surging Striking and punishing contact moves with Rocky Helmet, and Spdef Chomp seeing decent results thanks to it's bulk and good defensive typing. Chomp is similar in viability to Clefable, still very solid if you decide to go with it but not meta defining or an option you would use that often. A still good tho.


Other mons that I have an opinion on but don't feel strongly enough to confidently ask about a change in ranking even though they probably deserve it:

from A+ to S- This mon is very strong. There aren't many good switch in to Urshifu outside of Toxapex, Dragonite and a few others. Being a water type with good bulk gives it a very good defensive utility for an offensive mon and most urshifu answers rely on chipping it with rocky helmet before it chips you enough to just click CC and kill you. Good speed tier, hard to reliably check, scary mon.

from B+ to A- Victini hits stupid hard and a lot of teams are running multiple steel types in their compositions making it easier for Victini to come in and click buttons. With choice band, choice scarf or boots Victini is a pain to deal with and it also can gives you an answer to Tapu Lele and Volcarona if you need to.

from B to B+ Gastrodon is the don and one of the better defensive water types in recent times, being able to absorb almost every hit and recover from it, spreading toxics around, eating a hit and throwing clear smog to stop setting up mons from sweeping. Good defensive typing, can go both physical or special and can give you an immunity from water. Very good mon.


Others that I don't care too much but I'll mention anyway:

from S- to S Dragapult is Dragapult

from A+ to S- Torn is good offensively and great as support and utility and is not too hard to fit in.

from B to B+ I put it in this section because everytime I say drill is good they think I'm crazy and disregard everything else I said. So I'll just say is good but still pay more attention to the other noms :^)



This one ended up being longer than I intended but here you go, some noms that I dont think are too crazy and that I think most people would agree with. Tell me where you think I f*cked up (probably drill) and hope you at least enjoyed the read

 

[FreshJuice]

Here comes another post because why not! This one is more to just highlight a couple things. I won't be talking about any mons I've already discussed recently.

Rises:

from A+ to S- I think there's no denying Fini is one of the more versatile mons in the meta. Featuring sets like Calm Mind, Scarf, Whirlpool, Taunt and even Defog this mon perform every single one of those to great success making it fairly unpredictable. It is one of the most prominent checks to mons like Weavile and Urshifu which are very present, and can even go with the Spdef option to be a check to Dragapult and other special attackers. The support it brings to teams with misty terrain is also very important letting teammates like Urshifu and Weavile click their multi hits move on mons like Zapdos without being worried, being overall support for mons that hate toxic like Buzzwole and Garchomp and fast teammates not having to worry about Thunder Wave. It is highly effective and relatively easy to play, so for this reasons and more I think is easy to see why Fini is deserving of S-.

from A to A+ Lele is disgusting and that's about it. Hits everything incredibly hard and there are very few if any reliable switch in to this mon. Slowking-galar drops to psyschock with very little chip, Corviknight have to remain at full health all match to really check this mon as with some chip this mon can be 2HKO by psychic, Melmetal, Ferrothorn and Heatran doesn't have that good recovery and take too much from a well placed Focus Blast and even take a good chunk from psychic alone. This mon lowkey is what people say Kyurem is. No switch ins and every wrong guess makes you lose a lot. Can even drop one of its moves to fit Thunderbolt for Corviknight and Toxapex if you feel like it or fit Future Sight to gives the team an easier time breaking. A lot of Leles have started to run Choice Scarf to get the upperhand against Dragapult, Arctozolt and other faster mons. Plus the value of having psychic terrain on your side is fairly underrated giving you a way to deal with priority and sweep with your fast mons / weather abusers or even for itself when using Choice Scarf. So yeah Tapu Lele is very strong and should rise.

from A to A+ very good all around defensive mon. It can gives you checks from everything you need that isn't a fire type. One of the easiest mons to set up hazards and spread up Knock Up. Every time it's in it can annoy the opponent clicking leech seed making it harder for the rival to act as they please without Ferrothorn getting healthier or losing a fair amount of health until you switch giving it a deceptively high sustainability. It can contest the rocks staying up against a Corviknight which most mons can't do or throw a leech seed and make it easier for teammate to enter more safely on a defogging Corv. It's steel type and stats gives it a very good match up against most offensive mons as just its presence in the team makes the opponent have to guess what move to use or get chipped from iron barbs or the attack just get completely eaten by Ferro. This pokemon gives a good match up against both Rain and Hail which is very important in this meta and it have a good time being a role compressing mon thanks to its attributes. The overall value this mon gives I think is enough to warrant a rise.


Drops:

from A+ to A This one makes me sad because I love Garchomp but I can't ignore the fact that it have gotten worse over time. At this point in time and for a while now, Landorus-T have been monopolizing the ground type market, overshadowing Garchomp in almost every aspect but most importantly, the presence of Lando gives Garchomp a hard time existing by being a very reliable check with intimidate and immunity to Earthquake. Garchomp is a mon that for the time being have a somewhat hard time breaking and / or sweeping with the overpresence of Landorus, Corviknight, Weavile and Dragapult without mentioning the rise of hail and almost every team having an ice type move to deal with Landorus, Garchomp and Dragonite. At this time Garchomp is seen very often using a defensive set be it with rocky helmet or leftovers paired with toxic as the offensive route have a hard time doing what it wants to do most of the time. Garchomp is still a very good mon being a solid check to Heatran and Volcarona. And the defensive route is also very solid persuading Urshifu from Surging Striking and punishing contact moves with Rocky Helmet, and Spdef Chomp seeing decent results thanks to it's bulk and good defensive typing. Chomp is similar in viability to Clefable, still very solid if you decide to go with it but not meta defining or an option you would use that often. A still good tho.


Other mons that I have an opinion on but don't feel strongly enough to confidently ask about a change in ranking even though they probably deserve it:

from A+ to S- This mon is very strong. There aren't many good switch in to Urshifu outside of Toxapex, Dragonite and a few others. Being a water type with good bulk gives it a very good defensive utility for an offensive mon and most urshifu answers rely on chipping it with rocky helmet before it chips you enough to just click CC and kill you. Good speed tier, hard to reliably check, scary mon.

from B+ to A- Victini hits stupid hard and a lot of teams are running multiple steel types in their compositions making it easier for Victini to come in and click buttons. With choice band, choice scarf or boots Victini is a pain to deal with and it also can gives you an answer to Tapu Lele and Volcarona if you need to.

from B to B+ Gastrodon is the don and one of the better defensive water types in recent times, being able to absorb almost every hit and recover from it, spreading toxics around, eating a hit and throwing clear smog to stop setting up mons from sweeping. Good defensive typing, can go both physical or special and can give you an immunity from water. Very good mon.


Others that I don't care too much but I'll mention anyway:

from S- to S Dragapult is Dragapult

from A+ to S- Torn is good offensively and great as support and utility and is not too hard to fit in.

from B to B+ I put it in this section because everytime I say drill is good they think I'm crazy and disregard everything else I said. So I'll just say is good but still pay more attention to the other noms :^)



This one ended up being longer than I intended but here you go, some noms that I dont think are too crazy and that I think most people would agree with. Tell me where you think I f*cked up (probably drill) and hope you at least enjoyed the read

really loved going through your post. Honestly not bad. I do have a few disagrees. Fini is almost not s-. It is easy to get chipped playing fini. As a long term support/blanket wall. It does everything temporarily. I 'll be honest and say that fini is defo top 5 mon. Vic can rise fs. But the chomper is fine where it is. Sure the abundance of weavile, corv and fini to block those scales is giving it a tough time. But with the right suppost it mauls through teams. Rilla going down helps because it is a priority user which replaces psy terrain set up by lele. Honestly, drill is in a rank where it should have no business. IF corv usage goes down, i can imagine the start of swsh again. Cuz rilla aint getting used again.



Here is a nom i would like to make.

UR---->C-/C

One day I looked at the vr. I was looking it. I scrolled down and seeing the lower ranked. The previous gen kings, the niche, the unexpected. Then I load up showdown to get cooked by scarf fire blast gyarados. I looked at the vr again and found that it was UR. So you are saying uxie, zard have a niche but gyara does not. Here we go.



Gyara has a variety of sets. Ranging from twave waterfall flincher to outright gyara stall(I encountered it).
I would like to just nom one set in particular. The dd on HO.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature /Adamant For the idc about zeras/ pults becuase I de value speed
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Substitute


I am a p big fan of HO. While urshifu darker brother was one shotting the metagame, I tried HO. The results did not go p well. After it got banned The moistshifu wrecked my team. I hated HO for while until a few days ago. I discovred that gyarados resists both stabs of shifu. It had good spedef to combat smth like Fini, (Pult another threat to ho) which could check it in a vaccum. After plus one, you are fater than zera pult etc. Assuming you are jolly. It can flinch, para with bounce etc. This mon just worked like a charm. Might you say pex is a good counter and yes it is. It hazes for days and u get walled. But on HO, find that many a time pex gets just whelmed. So you get that handled. It has it flaws too. It rocks weak quad weak to electric, Forced to run adamant. Scarf kart. etc. Also with moxie it can often time fly with the game out of the oppositions hands. Here are a few replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1426487830 (turn one was funny af)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1425242677-z70hxdy0wtzq6f9r2qxtokzhxy59bdjpw
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8ou-1426593254

Still i agree gyara is bad but still it desreves to be ranked in ou. These replays are a just a few. I peaked at 1726 at high ladder and tried to squeeze a replay in and tiited to 1650s. :( Have a nice day!!

 

[Abhi]

Hey,

Theres been a few one-liners recently, please dont post them!
Future offenses maybe subject to infractions.

 

[Ctann]

Just some thoughts on

it can’t be S or S- because it is too reliant on 50/50’s against offensive teams. Players that run toxapex and similar resists also tend to only need to switch in a few times and don’t risk momentum.

it doesn’t help that it has to compete against faster threats that all OHKO it.

it has defensive utility against EVERY common dark type in OU, and that’s pretty amazing, tho getting knocked off takes away a lot of its firepower.

I liken it to Kartana. Extremely dangerous, but can be manipulated with its most popular sets due to the 50/50s and the weakness to rocky helmet. The newer adaptation of specially defensive Kartana gives it a solid A+ niche due to matchups against the faster fairies and hail, so anything is possible!

maybe some elegant team designs might have urshifu find new roles outside of choice band bruiser.

—-



a big selling point for garchomp is that most of its sweeping moveset (EQ, scale shot, rock move) don’t make contact! Fire fang makes contact, but if you’re running fire fang, you’re not trying to sweep or shuffle around opponents, you’re trying to take out a Buzzswole, skarm or corviknight!

Non contact is something that’s not being apprec enough. This means that things like switching around with regenerators or resists is less useful, as leftovers gradually heals, Garchomp also needs very mild paralysis or burn support to break through some of its fattest or fastest checks.

Importantly: corviknight isn’t a good check unless it’s running iron defense. This is because it literally can’t 1v1 it with any move set unless it boosts. Currently iron defense isn’t super common, so you probably don’t need fire fang for those 1/10 games.

now Lando is a VERY good check for Garchomp, however it can’t wear it out as much as chomp can wear it. Landorus usually comes a lot throughout a game, and it’s easy to get it into range. If you’re stacking chomp with other threats that are checked by Lando, you usually end up putting a lot of pressure on it.

there are a lot of games where a red hp garchomp is healed back up to green from double switching into things it threatens, and then getting 12.5% health (25% if you stack it with Rillaboom, a great partner)

it’s also pretty cool that despite misty terrain and grassy terrain weakening both its main stabs, garchomp actually benefits from both! Landorus and the less common switchins all are smacked without garchomp compromising damage!

anyway.. try rock slide and some mild team support. You’ll break most checks and late game attempts to switch between landorus + fairy much more consistently than stone edge can.

 

[Red Raven]

Just wanna make a couple quick noms


to A-. I know I nommed this before but that was only B+. It doesn't do it justice. This thing is straight up a massive threat especially if its stabs is supported by weathers in which case everything dies to it. On its own, it's not too threatening since it requires a bit more support than the other breakers, specifically something to get rid of Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Along with Blace and Godzilla, I think these three deserve higher on the vr


to A-. I think B+ is a bit low for it. This mon is actually one of the most perfect lures to get rid of Weavile with colbur berry as insurance. It also can be a temporary buffer against Garchomp which is always nice and unlike Pex, it can actually fight back against Heatran using body press. I'm not going to nom this higher but that niche is one very solid since Weavile is such a pain in the ass



Some random thoughts on the noms

to S-. No. Just no. It's not really that game breaking on its own. It doesn't warp the tier in the same vein as Dragapult where defensive mons adopted mixed evs or Heatran forcing shed shell on Pex. It's fairly easy to check in all honesty


to A+. Fully agree with this. This mon runs only either scarf or specs and somehow completely changes how it is played against. Specs allows it to brute force its way thru its answers while scarf revenge kills everything that isn't scarf Kartana or boosted Garchomp. Nothing much to say


to S-. I guess I can get behind this. This mon is really good at as a steel type, it doesn't even compete with Heatran at all for that slot since they have different checks. It's a recipe for double the trouble and it isn't a brainless trap with Magnezone because of u turn

to A. I still think people aren't giving it enough credit for its stealth rock resistance. Garchomp is the one common pokemon in the entire tier that has options against its own checks. Weavile? Use yache. Irritating fairies? Roseli berry. Really, people really need to explore more options on this thing. If you're using lefties in a metagame that's hostile to it, of course it's gonna have a miserable time, so why stick with lefties when it has options for its item? ^ the above post already gave a very good explanation about Garchomp so I'm just gonna point out that explore options since this thing has plenty of them. Hell if Weavile even drops thanks to scarf Lele then I wouldn't be surprsied to see soft sand or dragon fang on this thing

 

[infinitemugen99]

I wanted to know the community's thoughts on moving Ferrothorn from A to A+.



A few points on why I feel like it deserves a small raise in the VRs:

• Access to Iron Barbs means that big, bad OU threats Weavile ( ) and Urshifu-R ( ) are a bit scared of going for Triple Axel and Surging Strikes respectively (unless Protective Pads, but that does come with a significant power drop for Urshifu-R, and a Stealth Rock weakness for Weavile).
• As a defensive steel, it is not completely dependent on Leftovers for recovery, since it has access to Leech Seed. Furthermore, there are very few grass types ( ) and Magic Guard users in the tier, which means that it is quite likely that Leech Seed will almost always give you value. Also, Magic Guard user Clefable ( ) can also be pressured with Iron Head or Gyro Ball, if Ferrothorn has too much trouble with it.
• Access to excellent utility moves like Knock Off, Spikes and Thunder Wave (and many more) guarantee that you get something out of most matchups if paired with the right partners.
• Being something that can switch into Tapu Lele's STABs (), and somewhat force it out, is also always a nice thing.
• I know usage statistics don't always mean much when it comes to viability, but SCL has seen Ferrothorn being used as much as other A+ members of the tier, and has been used very effectively by skilled players during those games.

One point that holds it back immensely in my opinion:

• Ferrothorn suffers from some horrible 4MSS: Body Press, Gyro Ball/Iron Head, Knock Off, Leech Seed, Power Whip, Spikes, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and a few other more niche options.

Hoping this can spark a nice and insightful discussion!

 

[coral fan]

hey. im new to the forums so let me know if im doing something wrong here.
after playing a lot of ladder games recently i've built up enough experience with the metagane to feel like i can share and justify my thoughts on potential VR changes.

to A+: this mon is crazy good, as shown by its #13 usage and its history of being banned previously when the power level of the meta was significantly weaker. it takes hits from almost every mon in the metagame, notably avoiding a 2hko from standard arctozolts which have been rising in usage recently. it has great matchups vs a lot of the most popular mons in the meta right now including pult, gking, fini (which again, has been rising in usage recently). it can run a variety of viable sets - most notably choice banded which has very few viable switchins, assault vest to take hits and pivot around mons like lele more effectively, and protective pads twave which allows it to muscle past rocky helmet mons more effectively. it's super good vs bulkier teams and is very easy to fit onto almost any archetype, from trick room HO to semistall/balance.

to A: not sure why this mon dropped recently. sure, heatran is like the second best mon in OU but it's not on every team, and even teams with heatran can be pressured by volc's teammates. and aside from heatran volcarona answers are hard to come by and often force otherwise-suboptimal teambuilding decisions just to ensure your team doesn't lose to volc. it's by no means a top 10 mon but when taking into account its versatility and the fact that 5 other pokemon can be used on a volc team to pressure tran means that it's a huge threat both in the teambuilder and in battle.

to S-: as slowking drops out of OU this mon has taken up the role of being by far the best bulky water in the tier, with a great matchup vs all S ranked mons as well as the A ranked mons. with urshifu-r and weavile being such dominant offensive mons it's nice to have a single pokemon to deal with both. i've personally enjoyed using a whirlpool/moonblast/nature's madness/taunt set to shut down defensive mons whilst still taking hits, but scarf, calm mind and support finis are all viable sets in OU, too.

to A+: i've always been an advocate for this mon, freeze dry/earthpower is unresisted outside of 5 bad mons - rotom-h ,rotom-f,levitate bronzong, frosmoth and cryogonal - it's near impossible to switch into assuming correct predictions. blissey gets focus blasted, volc gets draco meteored, even melmetal my beloved doesn't take earth powers too well. admittedly this means kyurem requires skill from the player but that does not make a mon any less viable imo. it can also run sub/roost sets, either special or increasingly physical (DD spear) too, even on semistall teams due to pressure being a great ability.

to B: this mon isn't too good anymore. he isn't even OU by usage. sure, lele is dangerous but that's really the only reason to use slowking right now. the meta isn't passive enough for future/port to do as well as it used to. i'd rather use fini or even gastrodon over this guy as my spdef water. slowbro is better, and so is glowking, both of which should stay as they are imo.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
finally, i want to nominate the mon that carried me to high ladder:

, from UR to C-: i would say C but that would kind of be pushing it for an unranked mon to suddenly jump up so i'll start at the bottom. this guy is viable in OU. i peaked #43 on the ladder (1890 elo) with this mon, and will post replays at the end of my rant.
i think the only good set on stoise is shell smash, and that's for the sole reason that it's a great win condition due to the nature of the water resists in the tier. skewda and kart can't take hits. pelipper only sets the rain for it to put it within range of a roll at full (+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 297-349 (91.9 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO )pult and dnite are weak to both ice and misty terrain blast. ferro and kyurem are weak to aura sphere. sure, fini is a problem but it's passive enough that blastoise won't ever be OHKOed by it, or even 2hkoed by most sets ( 252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 120-142 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ). slowking as i've said has fallen off (but can be grassy/electric terrain or dark pulsed), pex can be psychic/electric terrain pulsed and again is kinda passive so you can outplay it with shell smash. urshifu-r can be terrain pulsed or just chipped and then knocked out with hydro. the final water resist, rillaboom, is blastoise's worst enemy but A) is falling off at the moment, and B) can be taken out with supporting mons (corvi, zap, buzz, etc) relatively easily with team support. mons that rely on team support to be good tend to be ranked lower but that doesn't stop them from being viable when on the right team. i also believe blastoise matches up relatively well against hail as it can outspeed arcto in hail if it sets up on one of the bulkier mons (as shown in one of my replays) and will OHKO even if it's not Naive zolt ( +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arctozolt: 346-408 (107.7 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO ). blastoise is significantly more viable than mons like slowbro-g, haxorus, zard, necrozma and conk and for that reason should be ranked C- at minimum. at #126 in usage it hasn't caught on yet, but i mean that's above weezing-g which is also ranked so usage alone shouldn't stop blastoise from reaching its well-deserved spot.

replays: (all in the 1800s)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1427474254-1ydy4to3zhg5btgy2itdwqija7xdwuzpw
^blastoise sweeps a team after taking out Ferrothorn with a couple of correct predictions - my opponent's only water resist.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1427218506-t6j5tftjep1sj6r5jxiyeia48bnyommpw
^blastoise gets close to 6-0ing hail, leaving my opponent with only one mon left as it died to hail chip. scarf kyurem as my opponent's sole water resist was not good enough.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1427577818-xcqg99epezlhsdzsxyn5q9fbn5uu3uxpw
^opponent sacks water resists and pays the price

sample set:
Blastoise @ White Herb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Terrain Pulse
- Hydro Pump
- Aura Sphere

Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Surf are all also viable options, and the suprise factor of not knowing which coverage moves he will be running means that the opponent will either have to preserve their water resists very carefully or will guess wrong and get swept.

advantages over similar mons:

very few mons in the VRs fill the role blastoise fills, though i would suggest it is most comparable to azumarill, which also forces careful preservation of water resists, but blastoise is not stopped by psychic terrain, is much more difficult to revenge kill, has comparable bulk and one fewer weakness. other shell smash users such as cloyster and polteageist have more obstacles in their way (steels, and darks respectively) in the current meta, and also find it harder to set up in the first place. barbaracle is a rock type with inferior bulk so struggles setting up and its coverage against the current meta is less impressive. edit: i think keldeo is another fair comparison thanks to its water/fighting coverage combined with potential ice moves though blastoise's speed after a shell smash is a vital factor that something like calm mind keldeo cannot reach. it also has access to terrain pulse which is needed to get through mons like pex, and can deal a lot more damage than the 55 base power that icy wind offers. i also think the surprise factor of blastoise acts as another niche, since players may expect the incorrect pairing of ice beam, dark pulse and terrain pulse in its final two slots, or may even expect a rapid spin/flip turn support stoise meaning the opponent is more likely to play suboptimally against blastoise than something like keldeo.

thanks for reading, hope you guys support my nomination (or at least get a laugh out of it) ^^
if this goes down okay i might nominate a few more rises and drops like lele to A+ and koko to A but im too lazy to write any more right now after putting all of my passion into my blastoise nomination haha.

 

[Hada Yaba]

The Slowking hate is way too overblown. I am mostly going to do a direct comparison with galar king since that seems to be the direct competitor for it in everyone's minds.
The first thing I want to mention is that slowking can run an assault vest set. I'm not saying it is the best sking set but let's see how different it is from the normal av galar king set.

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD (Evs can be optimized)
Sassy Nature
- Aqua Tail / Scald / Razor Shell
- Earthquake
- Future Sight
- Flamethrower / Other Coverage

Like galar king, slowking can pivot with av, run future sight for team support, scald for annoyance purposes and even stuff like d tail since it isn't as easily walled by steels so the only thing that actually matter will be the match ups. Thus, to be inferior to av gking, the thing that will mostly matter will be the matchups. Let's look at it's performance against the entire tier.

Ordering the matchups by viability
VS

: AV EQ king is the best heatran counter in the tier. It has the longevity to sponge off hits infinitely, can 2 shot it with eq regardless of the set and can even heal off chip from magma+tox without caring about taunt due to regen andthe attacks dealing like 10% damage. You can even take a knock off from pex or ditch eq for other moves and still be fine to an extent! It is that bulky.

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 38-45 (9.6 - 11.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and trapping damage

On the other hand, galar king needs eq to hope it can even attempt to check tran, not to mention being vulnerable to both magma storm and earth power, making it a shaky tran check at best.

VS

Both are weak to shadow ball and have their stabs resisted so there is no difference in this match up.

VS

: pretty equal match up, sking can neutralize the future sights with more ease but galar king cannot be poisoned. Sking does better against slack off less galar king due to bulk and water stab support but i don't know how relevant that set is.

VS

: Obviously galar king is better here but did you know that slowking can avoid the 2hko from tbolt after rocks and thus can check koko?
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking in Electric Terrain: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Galar king is bad against zeraora and cannot stop volt switch spam so you need a backup electric check regardless meaning in practise, slowking can serve as a backup koko check and galar king's advantage in this match up is not as bad as it sounds.

VS

: Both checks np+ knock off equally but against pivot variants, slowking is slightly more vulnerable due to being weak to u-turn. Not that noticeable though cuz the damage is low regardless.
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Slowking: 106-126 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 56.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

VS

: Lele actually has a chance to ohko galar king with psyshock after rocks, making it a bad check at best. On the other hand, slowking is only 3shotted by psyshock after rocks. Even when worn down, this allows it to pivot to a resist regardless of lele's move choice.

VS

: If you need help against it, then it's cm. If it's cm, galar king can't beat it with sludge bomb. Relatively equal match up.

VS

: Not a relevant special attacker imo but i will mention regardless. Galarking slightly better but look at this
+2 252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 152-182 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3hko
Without rocks (which is not difficult because hail doesn't like rocks on it's side so it will be focusing on defogging), slowking can easily check it with flamethrower and is actually better against blizzard variants.

VS

: Galar king noticeably better here. Still, slowking is only 2koed 16% of the time from full with specs modest freeze dry so it can pivot against it a couple times due to shrugging off all the other moves. Even with rocks, sking is only barely 2koed and perhaps the opponent will be forced to defog away the rocks to protect his own kyurem. Besides even galar king has a chance to get 2koed by specs modest earth power after rocks.

SubKyurem can only do about 3-5% more damage to slowking with freeze dry than it can do to galar king with earth power so not much difference there. If you run a move that breaks the sub (like psychic or power gem in case you're running scald), the matchup is fairly equal for both variants.

VS

: This thing is more of a steel trapper than a special attacker so i don't think it is very relevant. Besides without specs, even modest magnezone can only 3ko king with rocks, meaning with regen support it can check zone with ease using eq.

VS

: Roasts both but galar king can better fish poison.

VS

: Despite the bug weakness, king is better here. Galar king is easily set up on by roost volc and cannot beat 3 attacks volc 1v1 so it is not a volc check. On the other hand, B buzz volcarona is quite rare these days and ditched in favor of psychic, roost, giga drain or safeguard. Aqua tail sking usually 2koes all volc sets, stone walls all non bbuzz variants while still tanking 1 max spa +1 bug buzz.

VS

: Both are 2koed by shadow ball but kanto king can pivot in on fire moves and 2ko it back.

VS

: Slowking hard walls it, galar king loses.

VS

: Slowking much better cuz galar king gets 2shotted by steam eruption in rain.

VS

: Galar king is much better against it but offensive variants are rare.

VS

: Both fucked by specs shadow ball.

So in terms of special threats, king is better against heatran, lele, volcanion, nidoking and volc whereas galar king is better against koko, kyurem, zone and zapdos. Not quite noticeable wouldn't you say?

Maybe then the difference is against physical threats?
Physical attackers king checks: None, maybe urshifu with about 120 def evs but not going to mention.
Physical attackers king does better against:

Physical attackers galar king checks:

(Not exactly super relevant offensive threats, the more dangerous knock sciz blows away galar king and bulu is rare)
Physical attackers galar does better against:

I haven't even mentioned the telesight set yet. It is quite outdated and doesn't work well in the current meta, but still gives king something else it can do.

From the matchups, it can be argued galar king is slightly better but not exactly noticeable and sking can still do it's av special tanking future sight support job well. Why exactly is then galar king a+ while slowking is being nominated to be dropped all the way to the b/ b- rank? Now, I do realize that team compositions might favor galar king (for instance urshifu pairs better with galar king than slowking) but when looking at the actual matchups, slowking is more than capable of competing with galar king so i feel it can stay at it's current a- rank.

 

[TailGlowVM]

The Slowking hate is way too overblown. I am mostly going to do a direct comparison with galar king since that seems to be the direct competitor for it in everyone's minds.
The first thing I want to mention is that slowking can run an assault vest set. I'm not saying it is the best sking set but let's see how different it is from the normal av galar king set.

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD (Evs can be optimized)
Sassy Nature
- Aqua Tail / Scald / Razor Shell
- Earthquake
- Future Sight
- Flamethrower / Other Coverage

Like galar king, slowking can pivot with av, run future sight for team support, scald for annoyance purposes and even stuff like d tail since it isn't as easily walled by steels so the only thing that actually matter will be the match ups. Thus, to be inferior to av gking, the thing that will mostly matter will be the matchups. Let's look at it's performance against the entire tier.

Ordering the matchups by viability
VS

: AV EQ king is the best heatran counter in the tier. It has the longevity to sponge off hits infinitely, can 2 shot it with eq regardless of the set and can even heal off chip from magma+tox without caring about taunt due to regen andthe attacks dealing like 10% damage. You can even take a knock off from pex or ditch eq for other moves and still be fine to an extent! It is that bulky.

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 38-45 (9.6 - 11.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and trapping damage

On the other hand, galar king needs eq to hope it can even attempt to check tran, not to mention being vulnerable to both magma storm and earth power, making it a shaky tran check at best.

VS

Both are weak to shadow ball and have their stabs resisted so there is no difference in this match up.

VS

: pretty equal match up, sking can neutralize the future sights with more ease but galar king cannot be poisoned. Sking does better against slack off less galar king due to bulk and water stab support but i don't know how relevant that set is.

VS

: Obviously galar king is better here but did you know that slowking can avoid the 2hko from tbolt after rocks and thus can check koko?
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking in Electric Terrain: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Galar king is bad against zeraora and cannot stop volt switch spam so you need a backup electric check regardless meaning in practise, slowking can serve as a backup koko check and galar king's advantage in this match up is not as bad as it sounds.

VS

: Both checks np+ knock off equally but against pivot variants, slowking is slightly more vulnerable due to being weak to u-turn. Not that noticeable though cuz the damage is low regardless.
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Slowking: 106-126 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 56.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

VS

: Lele actually has a chance to ohko galar king with psyshock after rocks, making it a bad check at best. On the other hand, slowking is only 3shotted by psyshock after rocks. Even when worn down, this allows it to pivot to a resist regardless of lele's move choice.

VS

: If you need help against it, then it's cm. If it's cm, galar king can't beat it with sludge bomb. Relatively equal match up.

VS

: Not a relevant special attacker imo but i will mention regardless. Galarking slightly better but look at this
+2 252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 152-182 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3hko
Without rocks (which is not difficult because hail doesn't like rocks on it's side so it will be focusing on defogging), slowking can easily check it with flamethrower and is actually better against blizzard variants.

VS

: Galar king noticeably better here. Still, slowking is only 2koed 16% of the time from full with specs modest freeze dry so it can pivot against it a couple times due to shrugging off all the other moves. Even with rocks, sking is only barely 2koed and perhaps the opponent will be forced to defog away the rocks to protect his own kyurem. Besides even galar king has a chance to get 2koed by specs modest earth power after rocks.

SubKyurem can only do about 3-5% more damage to slowking with freeze dry than it can do to galar king with earth power so not much difference there. If you run a move that breaks the sub (like psychic or power gem in case you're running scald), the matchup is fairly equal for both variants.

VS

: This thing is more of a steel trapper than a special attacker so i don't think it is very relevant. Besides without specs, even modest magnezone can only 3ko king with rocks, meaning with regen support it can check zone with ease using eq.

VS

: Roasts both but galar king can better fish poison.

VS

: Despite the bug weakness, king is better here. Galar king is easily set up on by roost volc and cannot beat 3 attacks volc 1v1 so it is not a volc check. On the other hand, B buzz volcarona is quite rare these days and ditched in favor of psychic, roost, giga drain or safeguard. Aqua tail sking usually 2koes all volc sets, stone walls all non bbuzz variants while still tanking 1 max spa +1 bug buzz.

VS

: Both are 2koed by shadow ball but kanto king can pivot in on fire moves and 2ko it back.

VS

: Slowking hard walls it, galar king loses.

VS

: Slowking much better cuz galar king gets 2shotted by steam eruption in rain.

VS

: Galar king is much better against it but offensive variants are rare.

VS

: Both fucked by specs shadow ball.

So in terms of special threats, king is better against heatran, lele, volcanion, nidoking and volc whereas galar king is better against koko, kyurem, zone and zapdos. Not quite noticeable wouldn't you say?

Maybe then the difference is against physical threats?
Physical attackers king checks: None, maybe urshifu with about 120 def evs but not going to mention.
Physical attackers king does better against:

Physical attackers galar king checks:

(Not exactly super relevant offensive threats, the more dangerous knock sciz blows away galar king and bulu is rare)
Physical attackers galar does better against:

I haven't even mentioned the telesight set yet. It is quite outdated and doesn't work well in the current meta, but still gives king something else it can do.

From the matchups, it can be argued galar king is slightly better but not exactly noticeable and sking can still do it's av special tanking future sight support job well. Why exactly is then galar king a+ while slowking is being nominated to be dropped all the way to the b/ b- rank? Now, I do realize that team compositions might favor galar king (for instance urshifu pairs better with galar king than slowking) but when looking at the actual matchups, slowking is more than capable of competing with galar king so i feel it can stay at it's current a- rank.

Slowking is much more passive, since your set doesn't have any Special Attack investment, and Poison-type STAB is pretty important in terms of Galarian Slowking's offensive prowess as it hits Pokemon like Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Urshifu, and Tornadus-T that are taking no damage from your Slowking, and makes it much harder to switch into with the threat of Sludge Bomb poison combined with Flamethrower preventing any Steel-type other than Heatran switching in.

You could use a more Galarian Slowking-type spread with Special Attack investment, but then Slowking doesn't achieve all those calcs you talked about:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Slowking in Psychic Terrain: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking in Electric Terrain: 156-186 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(This is the standard Galarian Slowking spread, you might want something slightly different but the point is the same.)

 

[ausma]

The Slowking hate is way too overblown. I am mostly going to do a direct comparison with galar king since that seems to be the direct competitor for it in everyone's minds.
The first thing I want to mention is that slowking can run an assault vest set. I'm not saying it is the best sking set but let's see how different it is from the normal av galar king set.

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD (Evs can be optimized)
Sassy Nature
- Aqua Tail / Scald / Razor Shell
- Earthquake
- Future Sight
- Flamethrower / Other Coverage

Like galar king, slowking can pivot with av, run future sight for team support, scald for annoyance purposes and even stuff like d tail since it isn't as easily walled by steels so the only thing that actually matter will be the match ups. Thus, to be inferior to av gking, the thing that will mostly matter will be the matchups. Let's look at it's performance against the entire tier.

Ordering the matchups by viability
VS

: AV EQ king is the best heatran counter in the tier. It has the longevity to sponge off hits infinitely, can 2 shot it with eq regardless of the set and can even heal off chip from magma+tox without caring about taunt due to regen andthe attacks dealing like 10% damage. You can even take a knock off from pex or ditch eq for other moves and still be fine to an extent! It is that bulky.

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 38-45 (9.6 - 11.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and trapping damage

On the other hand, galar king needs eq to hope it can even attempt to check tran, not to mention being vulnerable to both magma storm and earth power, making it a shaky tran check at best.

VS

Both are weak to shadow ball and have their stabs resisted so there is no difference in this match up.

VS

: pretty equal match up, sking can neutralize the future sights with more ease but galar king cannot be poisoned. Sking does better against slack off less galar king due to bulk and water stab support but i don't know how relevant that set is.

VS

: Obviously galar king is better here but did you know that slowking can avoid the 2hko from tbolt after rocks and thus can check koko?
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking in Electric Terrain: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Galar king is bad against zeraora and cannot stop volt switch spam so you need a backup electric check regardless meaning in practise, slowking can serve as a backup koko check and galar king's advantage in this match up is not as bad as it sounds.

VS

: Both checks np+ knock off equally but against pivot variants, slowking is slightly more vulnerable due to being weak to u-turn. Not that noticeable though cuz the damage is low regardless.
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Slowking: 106-126 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 56.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

VS

: Lele actually has a chance to ohko galar king with psyshock after rocks, making it a bad check at best. On the other hand, slowking is only 3shotted by psyshock after rocks. Even when worn down, this allows it to pivot to a resist regardless of lele's move choice.

VS

: If you need help against it, then it's cm. If it's cm, galar king can't beat it with sludge bomb. Relatively equal match up.

VS

: Not a relevant special attacker imo but i will mention regardless. Galarking slightly better but look at this
+2 252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 152-182 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3hko
Without rocks (which is not difficult because hail doesn't like rocks on it's side so it will be focusing on defogging), slowking can easily check it with flamethrower and is actually better against blizzard variants.

VS

: Galar king noticeably better here. Still, slowking is only 2koed 16% of the time from full with specs modest freeze dry so it can pivot against it a couple times due to shrugging off all the other moves. Even with rocks, sking is only barely 2koed and perhaps the opponent will be forced to defog away the rocks to protect his own kyurem. Besides even galar king has a chance to get 2koed by specs modest earth power after rocks.

SubKyurem can only do about 3-5% more damage to slowking with freeze dry than it can do to galar king with earth power so not much difference there. If you run a move that breaks the sub (like psychic or power gem in case you're running scald), the matchup is fairly equal for both variants.

VS

: This thing is more of a steel trapper than a special attacker so i don't think it is very relevant. Besides without specs, even modest magnezone can only 3ko king with rocks, meaning with regen support it can check zone with ease using eq.

VS

: Roasts both but galar king can better fish poison.

VS

: Despite the bug weakness, king is better here. Galar king is easily set up on by roost volc and cannot beat 3 attacks volc 1v1 so it is not a volc check. On the other hand, B buzz volcarona is quite rare these days and ditched in favor of psychic, roost, giga drain or safeguard. Aqua tail sking usually 2koes all volc sets, stone walls all non bbuzz variants while still tanking 1 max spa +1 bug buzz.

VS

: Both are 2koed by shadow ball but kanto king can pivot in on fire moves and 2ko it back.

VS

: Slowking hard walls it, galar king loses.

VS

: Slowking much better cuz galar king gets 2shotted by steam eruption in rain.

VS

: Galar king is much better against it but offensive variants are rare.

VS

: Both fucked by specs shadow ball.

So in terms of special threats, king is better against heatran, lele, volcanion, nidoking and volc whereas galar king is better against koko, kyurem, zone and zapdos. Not quite noticeable wouldn't you say?

Maybe then the difference is against physical threats?
Physical attackers king checks: None, maybe urshifu with about 120 def evs but not going to mention.
Physical attackers king does better against:

Physical attackers galar king checks:

(Not exactly super relevant offensive threats, the more dangerous knock sciz blows away galar king and bulu is rare)
Physical attackers galar does better against:

I haven't even mentioned the telesight set yet. It is quite outdated and doesn't work well in the current meta, but still gives king something else it can do.

From the matchups, it can be argued galar king is slightly better but not exactly noticeable and sking can still do it's av special tanking future sight support job well. Why exactly is then galar king a+ while slowking is being nominated to be dropped all the way to the b/ b- rank? Now, I do realize that team compositions might favor galar king (for instance urshifu pairs better with galar king than slowking) but when looking at the actual matchups, slowking is more than capable of competing with galar king so i feel it can stay at it's current a- rank.

For the record, I do think there is merit in Assault Vest Slowking, especially considering its Water-type resistance and access to a very spammable STAB Scald that lets it beat Heatran 1v1. Though, I am surprised to see you omit Dragon Tail, which is a monumental attribute that gives the Kantonian variant a niche as an AV sponge over its Galarian counterpart. Dragon Tail is an option that has incredibly strong synergy with Future Sight, making it so you are able to artificially reduce passivity by shuffling away Future Sight switch-ins and force damage on a Pokemon that may be deliberately preserved. This is compounded further if you pair Slowking with hazards, but that likely goes without saying.

Galarian Slowking is an incredibly powerful option in the metagame with absurd bulk after an Assault Vest, however what makes it so consistent, I’d argue, is its typing. A neutrality to Ice-type moves allows it to pivot around Kyurem much more reliably, and it provides a very good answer to Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko that situationally switches into Tapu Lele. Tapu Koko in particular is unable to be checked by base Slowking and is naturally very hard to keep in check in the long term. Galarian Slowking is one of few Pokemon in the tier that can keep up with its longevity. Furthermore, a neutrality to U-turn lets it afford to pivot a little more consistently into midground-play pivots. Lastly, STAB Sludge Bomb to exploit Ground-type switch-ins and to apply pressure to the aforementioned Fairy-types is really important. Base Slowking tends to find itself exploited by them, even with an Assault Vest, but Galarian Slowking beats them fairly assuredly if managed well. That extra 10 points in special attack also gives that and its other coverage some extra oomph, as described by the poster above.

 

[Magcargo]

Galarian Slowking is an incredibly powerful option in the metagame with absurd bulk after an Assault Vest, however what makes it so consistent, I’d argue, is its typing. A neutrality to Ice-type moves allows it to pivot around Kyurem much more reliably, and it provides a very good answer to Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko that situationally switches into Tapu Lele. Tapu Koko in particular is unable to be checked by Slowking and is naturally very hard to keep in check in the long term. Galarian Slowking is one of few Pokemon in the tier that can keep up with its longevity. Furthermore, a neutrality to U-turn lets it afford to pivot a little more consistently into midground-play pivots. Lastly, STAB Sludge Bomb to exploit Ground-type switch-ins and to apply pressure to the aforementioned Fairy-types is really important. Base Slowking tends to find itself exploited by them, even with an Assault Vest, but Galarian Slowking beats them fairly assuredly if managed well. That extra 10 points in special attack also gives that and its other coverage some extra oomph, as described by the poster above.

I'd also like to add that Galarian Slowking's Poison typing is really nice. The immunity to Poison damage is huge, giving it a much better match-up against defensive mons like Chansey / Blissey. It also lets G-Slowking do some cool stuff like Trick + Black Sludge, which is really handy to wear down normal switch-ins like Heatran and Garchomp.

 

[Ctann]

I'd also like to add that Galarian Slowking's Poison typing is really nice. The immunity to Poison damage is huge, giving it a much better match-up against defensive mons like Chansey / Blissey. It also lets G-Slowking do some cool stuff like Trick + Black Sludge, which is really handy to wear down normal switch-ins like Heatran and Garchomp.

Physically defensive utility glowking suits offensive teams really well. It switches into status moves, disrupts shared checks, cripples OUs fast offensive juggernauts that can’t OHKO it, and is overall quite difficult to switch into. It’s easily an A+ Pokémon for its ability to disrupt a lot of OU structures.

Unsure if I have shared the set previously:

Slowking-galar @ black sludge
Bold nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Psychic
- trick
- thunderwave
- ice beam

psychic is immediate damage against toxapex and other poison types. It also allows Slowking to check all fighting types in OU, especially urshifu, zapdos-galar, hawlucha and buzzwole.

Trick is to disrupt teams, including ones that spam knock off. Sometimes you’ll dispose of 3-4 items because a lot of bulkier teams try to shuffle around Pokémon into glowking (think tornadus-t needs to heal up, so it switches into toxapex, tox can’t stay in on psychic, so it goes to clefable, clefable needs to scout for sludge bomb, so switches back out into skarmory, etc)

Tricking sludge onto a hippodown, heatran, Tyranitar, etc is very valuable because it disincentivises these threats from staying in, especially if you share checks with a partner (such as Volcarona).

Thunderwave and ice beam is for overall utility, especially in the lead position. You can trade hits with landorus and garchomp, or cripple a tornadus or dragapult. These 4 Pokémon are all extremely common leads, and all hate trading damage/status on the first turn.

regenerator means Slowking can absorb hits every now and again, stack it with a dark type to have the most fun against choice locked Tapu-lele, who can technically 2hko with specs psychic, but will be cautious spamming it.

you can also run sludge bomb for clefable and to hit Weavile on the switch in, the power isn’t as needed against nintails/koko/lele/fini because it’s extremely unlikely they’ll stay in to trade hits anyway, flame thrower is good for potential Kartana/Ferrothorn/bisharp switch ins.

—



future sight and sludge bomb stabs are far too easily played around on the AV variant, so the AV variant works better on bulky offense, or balanced teams. Physically defensive utility Slowking is much better on offensive as it sponges hits and forces out a long list of Pokémon.

 

[Hada Yaba]

I see, i underestimated slowking-galar's offensive prowess. I do believe king is not that easy to take advantage of between future fsight set ups, scald burns, coverage support (psychic, flamethrower, ibeam, eq etc) and dragon tail like ausma mentioned but galar king is def much better equipped to handle the metagame than I thought.

Still, av kanto king does completely shut down heatran, which is like a top 3 pokemon, more important than anything galar king can check. The positive matchups against lele, volcarona, volcanion and nidoking are also very striking especially for the last two mons who are otherwise very difficult to reliably check (king only bliss and av torn, volc only d nite and bliss). It also still does it's pivot duties and help out against koko (eq 2 shots more than half of the time so it can 1v1 koko, making it much more likely to use tbolt and thus ease switch ins), specs kyurem, non specs zone, choice locked dragapult etc quite well due to obscene bulk. Thus, i still believe my original point of letting it stay in A-rank (or dropping it only a sub rank to B+) is perfectly valid, what do you think?

Edit: I am seeing eq getting quite underestimated but it's not only for tran. (Although shutting down tran is def sth extremely noticeable) It 2hkoes zone, can 2 shot koko as well as zeraora, 3hko volcanion and do up to 40% to galar king. It is definitely one of the best options av king can run for various purposes.

 

[TURBODERP]

Physically defensive utility glowking suits offensive teams really well. It switches into status moves, disrupts shared checks, cripples OUs fast offensive juggernauts that can’t OHKO it, and is overall quite difficult to switch into. It’s easily an A+ Pokémon for its ability to disrupt a lot of OU structures.

Unsure if I have shared the set previously:

Slowking-galar @ black sludge
Bold nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Psychic
- trick
- thunderwave
- ice beam

psychic is immediate damage against toxapex and other poison types. It also allows Slowking to check all fighting types in OU, especially urshifu, zapdos-galar, hawlucha and buzzwole.

Trick is to disrupt teams, including ones that spam knock off. Sometimes you’ll dispose of 3-4 items because a lot of bulkier teams try to shuffle around Pokémon into glowking (think tornadus-t needs to heal up, so it switches into toxapex, tox can’t stay in on psychic, so it goes to clefable, clefable needs to scout for sludge bomb, so switches back out into skarmory, etc)

Tricking sludge onto a hippodown, heatran, Tyranitar, etc is very valuable because it disincentivises these threats from staying in, especially if you share checks with a partner (such as Volcarona).

Thunderwave and ice beam is for overall utility, especially in the lead position. You can trade hits with landorus and garchomp, or cripple a tornadus or dragapult. These 4 Pokémon are all extremely common leads, and all hate trading damage/status on the first turn.

regenerator means Slowking can absorb hits every now and again, stack it with a dark type to have the most fun against choice locked Tapu-lele, who can technically 2hko with specs psychic, but will be cautious spamming it.

you can also run sludge bomb for clefable and to hit Weavile on the switch in, the power isn’t as needed against nintails/koko/lele/fini because it’s extremely unlikely they’ll stay in to trade hits anyway, flame thrower is good for potential Kartana/Ferrothorn/bisharp switch ins.

—



future sight and sludge bomb stabs are far too easily played around on the AV variant, so the AV variant works better on bulky offense, or balanced teams. Physically defensive utility Slowking is much better on offensive as it sponges hits and forces out a long list of Pokémon.

Good stuff! I think PhysDef Glowking should be explored more for sure, and even CM (potentially with Iron Defense and Stored Power) sets as well on certain teams. The straight-up immunity to being Poisoned or Toxic'd (barring Salazzle) is really quite nice.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Thunder Pwoell always a fan of the heat, but I don't think braviary is it. P sure this is a case of you being a good player, and not so much the pokemon. Can you see the OU lemmings using this effectively? I can't.

Braviary has roost, ghost immune, and hitting OG zapdos over Zapdos-g, otherwise it's straight worse. Why couldnt you also go adamant on Zapdos too? I don't get that point. The difference in close combat power is huge. Banded Zapdos kills melmetal and ferrothorn, whereas braviary does not. Also disagree on braviary being bulkier...you take a quarter from stealth rock unless boots, and then you do no damage.

Anyway, I've tried braviary a bunch and I agree it's not bad, but the stuff that differentiates from Zapdos G would put it more in C something for me. :Thumbs up:

(Granted, I think g zap is the truth)

Calcs for reference

Most Ferrothorn are 252/252+ at high ranks.

252 Atk Choice Band Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 338-402 (96 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 248-292 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Against the less common 252/80:
252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 308-364 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 304-358 (73.9 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Neither kills if based defensive melmetal

any other thoughts on this tho

 

[FreshJuice]

The Slowking hate is way too overblown. I am mostly going to do a direct comparison with galar king since that seems to be the direct competitor for it in everyone's minds.
The first thing I want to mention is that slowking can run an assault vest set. I'm not saying it is the best sking set but let's see how different it is from the normal av galar king set.

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD (Evs can be optimized)
Sassy Nature
- Aqua Tail / Scald / Razor Shell
- Earthquake
- Future Sight
- Flamethrower / Other Coverage

Like galar king, slowking can pivot with av, run future sight for team support, scald for annoyance purposes and even stuff like d tail since it isn't as easily walled by steels so the only thing that actually matter will be the match ups. Thus, to be inferior to av gking, the thing that will mostly matter will be the matchups. Let's look at it's performance against the entire tier.

Ordering the matchups by viability
VS

: AV EQ king is the best heatran counter in the tier. It has the longevity to sponge off hits infinitely, can 2 shot it with eq regardless of the set and can even heal off chip from magma+tox without caring about taunt due to regen andthe attacks dealing like 10% damage. You can even take a knock off from pex or ditch eq for other moves and still be fine to an extent! It is that bulky.

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 38-45 (9.6 - 11.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and trapping damage

On the other hand, galar king needs eq to hope it can even attempt to check tran, not to mention being vulnerable to both magma storm and earth power, making it a shaky tran check at best.

VS

Both are weak to shadow ball and have their stabs resisted so there is no difference in this match up.

VS

: pretty equal match up, sking can neutralize the future sights with more ease but galar king cannot be poisoned. Sking does better against slack off less galar king due to bulk and water stab support but i don't know how relevant that set is.

VS

: Obviously galar king is better here but did you know that slowking can avoid the 2hko from tbolt after rocks and thus can check koko?
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking in Electric Terrain: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Slowking Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Galar king is bad against zeraora and cannot stop volt switch spam so you need a backup electric check regardless meaning in practise, slowking can serve as a backup koko check and galar king's advantage in this match up is not as bad as it sounds.

VS

: Both checks np+ knock off equally but against pivot variants, slowking is slightly more vulnerable due to being weak to u-turn. Not that noticeable though cuz the damage is low regardless.
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Slowking: 106-126 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 56.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

VS

: Lele actually has a chance to ohko galar king with psyshock after rocks, making it a bad check at best. On the other hand, slowking is only 3shotted by psyshock after rocks. Even when worn down, this allows it to pivot to a resist regardless of lele's move choice.

VS

: If you need help against it, then it's cm. If it's cm, galar king can't beat it with sludge bomb. Relatively equal match up.

VS

: Not a relevant special attacker imo but i will mention regardless. Galarking slightly better but look at this
+2 252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 152-182 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3hko
Without rocks (which is not difficult because hail doesn't like rocks on it's side so it will be focusing on defogging), slowking can easily check it with flamethrower and is actually better against blizzard variants.

VS

: Galar king noticeably better here. Still, slowking is only 2koed 16% of the time from full with specs modest freeze dry so it can pivot against it a couple times due to shrugging off all the other moves. Even with rocks, sking is only barely 2koed and perhaps the opponent will be forced to defog away the rocks to protect his own kyurem. Besides even galar king has a chance to get 2koed by specs modest earth power after rocks.

SubKyurem can only do about 3-5% more damage to slowking with freeze dry than it can do to galar king with earth power so not much difference there. If you run a move that breaks the sub (like psychic or power gem in case you're running scald), the matchup is fairly equal for both variants.

VS

: This thing is more of a steel trapper than a special attacker so i don't think it is very relevant. Besides without specs, even modest magnezone can only 3ko king with rocks, meaning with regen support it can check zone with ease using eq.

VS

: Roasts both but galar king can better fish poison.

VS

: Despite the bug weakness, king is better here. Galar king is easily set up on by roost volc and cannot beat 3 attacks volc 1v1 so it is not a volc check. On the other hand, B buzz volcarona is quite rare these days and ditched in favor of psychic, roost, giga drain or safeguard. Aqua tail sking usually 2koes all volc sets, stone walls all non bbuzz variants while still tanking 1 max spa +1 bug buzz.

VS

: Both are 2koed by shadow ball but kanto king can pivot in on fire moves and 2ko it back.

VS

: Slowking hard walls it, galar king loses.

VS

: Slowking much better cuz galar king gets 2shotted by steam eruption in rain.

VS

: Galar king is much better against it but offensive variants are rare.

VS

: Both fucked by specs shadow ball.

So in terms of special threats, king is better against heatran, lele, volcanion, nidoking and volc whereas galar king is better against koko, kyurem, zone and zapdos. Not quite noticeable wouldn't you say?

Maybe then the difference is against physical threats?
Physical attackers king checks: None, maybe urshifu with about 120 def evs but not going to mention.
Physical attackers king does better against:

Physical attackers galar king checks:

(Not exactly super relevant offensive threats, the more dangerous knock sciz blows away galar king and bulu is rare)
Physical attackers galar does better against:

I haven't even mentioned the telesight set yet. It is quite outdated and doesn't work well in the current meta, but still gives king something else it can do.

From the matchups, it can be argued galar king is slightly better but not exactly noticeable and sking can still do it's av special tanking future sight support job well. Why exactly is then galar king a+ while slowking is being nominated to be dropped all the way to the b/ b- rank? Now, I do realize that team compositions might favor galar king (for instance urshifu pairs better with galar king than slowking) but when looking at the actual matchups, slowking is more than capable of competing with galar king so i feel it can stay at it's current a- rank.

Against most physical both don't do well. While most of the matchups were true, they are not alone enough. Glowking has the ability to fish for poison and has pretty neutral if not good matchup against many threats rn. Slowking vs tran is p difficult as even if you have eq, you have the potential toxic from tran which ruins the mon. And slowking was only used to come in eat, fs and tp. Meanwhile, glowking can flaunt its movepool while having the bulk to shrug hits with ease. Slowking does not "beat" the mons which it actually it switches in to. Lele does not care about scalds, you cant touch volcanion, bulky volc can eats scalds,(idk why you are using tail but it could possibly beat volc which is not maxhp max def). But even then lele has a minute chance to beat you with psyshock assuming timid, If its modest psyshock, glowking at least prevents a free switchin but slowking walls it fs but does not prevent most mons coming in for free because it soo passive. I would not go as far to b-. But b+ would be fine imo