Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[shadowpea]

why were there two extra pages in the last 12 hours i got so many posts to like aaaaaaaaa

why is zard still ranked lol

really curious why both latis are consistantly on the same rank? imo latios is definately the better one while latias mainly has the cm/support sets that a lot of other mons do better.

why did moltres rise? subroost dont much better than before.

volca is still at a-?

were there council discussion on rising terrakion and why it is still at c-?

thanks for all your hard work and time spent on this as always, have a nice day :)

 

[MrHands]

why is zard still ranked lol

Because it isn't really completely outclassed by anything. 100 base speed is pretty good and in Sun with Specs it 1-2HKOs literally everything not immune to fire. Darmanitan is better in a lot of ways but still has issues with recoil and is a little slower. It also has worse defensive typing giving it fewer switch-in opportunities. Charizard also has Hurricane which can OHKO unsuspecting Pelipper on turn 1 making it somewhat decent even if the weather gets rainy. Similarly Weather Ball works in Rain, Hail, and Sand against different targets. It's a lot more versatile than Darmanitan.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 375-442 (52.5 - 61.9%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 486-573 (68 - 80.2%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 179-211 (58.8 - 69.4%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 233-274 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 157-185 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Even Heatran has to be careful.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 396-466 (102.5 - 120.7%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 464-548 (120.2 - 141.9%)

These calcs are Timid, if you have giant balls run Modest to OHKO Toxapex with Overheat. The damage output from Charizard is ludicrous. Also for comparison purposes with Darmanitan:

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 486-573 (142.5 - 168%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 631-744 (185 - 218.1%)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sun: 526-620 (154.2 - 181.8%)

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sun: 604-712 (177.1 - 208.7%)

Is it something you can slap on any team? Absolutely not. But it's a Sun team Fire type nuclear bomb so I'd argue it fits next to Darmanitan in C-. Far from the best in the tier but it does have a niche.

 

[shadowpea]

Because it isn't really completely outclassed by anything. 100 base speed is pretty good and in Sun with Specs it 1-2HKOs literally everything not immune to fire. Darmanitan is better in a lot of ways but still has issues with recoil and is a little slower. It also has worse defensive typing giving it fewer switch-in opportunities.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 375-442 (52.5 - 61.9%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 179-211 (58.8 - 69.4%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 157-185 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Even Heatran has to be careful.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 396-466 (102.5 - 120.7%)

Also for comparison purposes:

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 486-573 (142.5 - 168%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 631-744 (185 - 218.1%)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sun: 526-620 (154.2 - 181.8%)

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sun: 604-712 (177.1 - 208.7%)

Is it something you can slap on any team? Absolutely not. But it's a Sun team Fire type nuclear bomb so I'd argue it fits next to Darmanitan in C-. Far from the best in the tier but it does have a niche.

ah ok thank you so much

 

[Verdas]

Why did Melmetal not rise?

 

[TailGlowVM]

Why did Hatterene drop but not Alolan Marowak or Porygon2? All of them are staples of Trick Room, and none have had any other use recently.

 

[Finchinator]

why were there two extra pages in the last 12 hours i got so many posts to like aaaaaaaaa

why is zard still ranked lol

See:

Finally, there have been no noteworthy uses of Alakazam on the higher part of the ladder, in tournaments, or really in general. We have at least seen a few stray Charizard on Sun teams, which is, more or less, enough to keep it barely ranked. I do not know what else you expect, but you can provide actual reasoning beyond empty comparisons when the thread opens up to nominations if you so please.

---

really curious why both latis are consistantly on the same rank? imo latios is definately the better one while latias mainly has the cm/support sets that a lot of other mons do better.

This is incorrect; if anything, Latias has been slightly better with the greater bulk to pull off Weakness Policy + Strored Power + Aura Sphere + Recover sets whereas Latios only did this with screens and Agility reliance. Latias also learns Healing Wish, which distinguishes things further. However, as of late, we have seen about the same amount of both, which happens to be very, very few. For more, see:

Latias had seen some usage with Weakness Policy + Stored Power sets, but no sightings of this recently. Latios had been similar with Agility or even as a breaker without Weakness Policy, but no sightings of it recently either. Overall, their niches continue to be diminished and usage continues to scrape the bottom of the barrel, so we drop them when we feel appropriate.

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why did moltres rise? subroost dont much better than before.

See:

Moltres regular form is a pretty pesky defensive presence with utility options like Defog, U-turn, Mystical Fire, etc. and it does well against a lot of common options like Meletal, Scizor, Volcarona, Rillaboom, etc.

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volca is still at a-?

See:

We voted on it and it was decisively A-.

Those arguments are fair, but they never really mentioned things like the rise in Blissey, which really is reactionary to Kyurem and hurts non-Safeguard Volcarona a ton, or Victini, which functions as a great trendy BO option that handles all non-Bug Buzz variants multiple times over.

Obviously Volcarona is a strong, polarizing option in the metagame with a high ceiling as a win condition, but just because Heatran is easy to wear out and outlasting Dragapult and Tapu Fini is feasible does not mean it is going to happen all the time or that is is this black-and-white. We are at a point where there are more forms of Volcarona counterplay than ever before, which makes consistently outlasting and defeating them especially challenging.

---

were there council discussion on rising terrakion and why it is still at c-?

Terrak is C+, not C-.

thanks for all your hard work and time spent on this as always, have a nice day :)

No problem, but it would be really appreciated if you looked to see if your questions.

Why did Melmetal not rise?

Not enough support. It really is still pretty limited as a Steel with rough defensive match-up vs things like Kyurem, for instance. At least Heatran can cover Volcarona or Corviknight Grounds. Melmetal requires pretty specifically focused building and that has been a limiting factor all generation honestly. It has never really been a top 10 Pokemon in terms of usage or viability, even if it is strong, and we do not see much that has changed recently to make this the case.

Why did Hatterene drop but not Alolan Marowak or Porygon2? All of them are staples of Trick Room, and none have had any other use recently.

Actually I think Porygon2 should be dropped, too, but just me. Regardless, Hatterene is not a 100% staple on TR imo. Marowak-A is, but you can see things like Uxie in Hatterene's slot. It is really, really close and I would not mind dropping the whole archetype honestly, but for now this seems appropriate. Close call though -- very fair question.

 

[glava222]

is shuckle dropping related to the declining viabilty of webs as a whole, or just shuckle's competition in ribombee, which didn't drop, getting closer to it?

 

[Finchinator]

is shuckle dropping related to the declining viabilty of webs as a whole, or just shuckle's competition in ribombee, which didn't drop, getting closer to it?

Both, but mainly the former.

 

[A Welcome Guest]

Why did Conkeldurr rise? It seems too slow, not too bulky and reliant on Guts to have a place with other wallbreakers such as Urshifu-R and Melmetal.

 

[Finchinator]

Why did Conkeldurr rise? It seems too slow, not too bulky and reliant on Guts to have a place with other wallbreakers such as Urshifu-R and Melmetal.

See:

Conkeldurr has appeared on a few teams with Future Sight + Teleport and it also is a staple on Trick Room.

 

[Evil T-tar]

Did Skarmory get removed entirely? Post says moved down to B+, but it’s just gone.

 

[ausma]

Did Skarmory get removed entirely? Post says moved down to B+, but it’s just gone.

yeah that's my bad, fixed

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

What sets do y’all use on victini? Personally y’all know for years I have used AV Tini and j have a physical one and a special one. Special is really nice but it’s kinda weird not being able to kill blissey. If you run mixed, I only suggest having v create as your phys move bc percentage wise 236 is only 20% less than 299 so vcreate still gonna be hitting hard.

 

[Pietrym]

What sets do y’all use on victini? Personally y’all know for years I have used AV Tini and j have a physical one and a special one. Special is really nice but it’s kinda weird not being able to kill blissey. If you run mixed, I only suggest having v create as your phys move bc percentage wise 236 is only 20% less than 299 so vcreate still gonna be hitting hard.

I just use the standard set but with Choice Scarf instead of boots
Obviously keeping rocks away is crucial, so I pair it with Defog Rotom-W

 

[remetagross]

I'm really enjoying Omari P's AV set with Power-up Punch/Glaciate/V-Create/Bolt Strike.

 

[JeebusMcFunk]

Hey not really gonna ask for much reasoning here (especially since I saw you voted on Aegislash an Blace who I am firmly in the camp of rising but maybe soon!) but I would love to ask if there was any discussion about pulling Sun mon up a rank or so.

I truly believe they deserve the discussion at least. Yea, it is a bit of MU oriented, but my lord can that team be strong. With greater minds than I working on it too, I'm sure it can be even deadlier

-Your avid Slowpoke Enthusiast

 

[Deleted User 464209]

What sets do y’all use on victini? Personally y’all know for years I have used AV Tini and j have a physical one and a special one. Special is really nice but it’s kinda weird not being able to kill blissey. If you run mixed, I only suggest having v create as your phys move bc percentage wise 236 is only 20% less than 299 so vcreate still gonna be hitting hard.

Life orb mixed, trick room, fat boots, skill swap + toxic, ring target, and then a whole bunch of fat sets that use status or encore. Scarf final gambit + trick is also OP.

Lmk if you want sets

 

[shadowpea]

No problem, but it would be really appreciated if you looked to see if your questions.

sorry about that, didnt actually read all of the last two pages.

im still curious on the reasoning of terrak's placement though. c- was a typo sorry.

 

[Finchinator]

sorry about that, didnt actually read all of the last two pages.

im still curious on the reasoning of terrak's placement though. c- was a typo sorry.

Nobody felt it was worth rising to the B ranks yet; it does not see much usage and many of the arguments felt like they applied more on paper than in practice. We will likely keep it as a discussion point to vote on it once more and give people more chance to actually use it consistently.

 

[clean]

What sets do y’all use on victini? Personally y’all know for years I have used AV Tini and j have a physical one and a special one. Special is really nice but it’s kinda weird not being able to kill blissey. If you run mixed, I only suggest having v create as your phys move bc percentage wise 236 is only 20% less than 299 so vcreate still gonna be hitting hard.

People really like physical victini (I do too), but recently I have been spamming special victini to great success on the ladder (took me to #2). It does suck being walled by blissey, but you can basically guarantee one kill a game based off surprise factor alone, as no one will switch Blissey into Victini before knowing the set.

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435109739-3eja2a5sc0ejrftbgk1yu45bbt27kh3pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1436582617-aau0rhl7s6a6a9iakgmqejq9rqpiecopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1431226947-kcn6f5xqv43j387az2swnna98krwryypw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1430463147-lz7608th4cxtdqrf6czh33bdokv4oq6pw


Wish I had more to show, lots of replays didn't get saved. The last move is pretty interchangeable. Depends on what you need for your team. I have sniped plenty of quagsires/swamperts/gastrodons/seismitoads with energy ball, so I probably like that one the best. Thunder is better for pex/slowtwins/pelipper and Psychic is mostly a more reliable option for Pex if you struggle against it.

Victini @ Expert Belt
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glaciate
- Blue Flare
- Scorching Sands
- Energy Ball/Thunder/Psychic

 

[Zapperrix]

There's no real evidence of Hippo sand seeing a rise though. Also, Corvi did not drop and Rilla has been steadily declining for a while, so not sure that changes much. If you look deeper, other Grounds are stronger, Kyurem is all over, Waters are all over, etc. -- just hard to justify Hippo rn.

Not really, no. There was a post or two on it, but nobody has really seen it do much or be worth a team slot when it does so little defensively.

If you provide replays since it is now UR, yes!

Thanks for the reply. Just another question, if the council feels Gengar isn't worth a team slot, why is it still ranked? Apologies if this question goes out of bounds.

 

[Finchinator]

Thanks for the reply. Just another question, if the council feels Gengar isn't worth a team slot, why is it still ranked? Apologies if this question goes out of bounds.

Because it still sees sporadic usage and it has a niche that nothing else entirely outclasses, so it can be justified. Just because we do not believe that is a practical niche and it has not translated too well recently does not mean we can outright in rank it yet unless this is sustained.

 

[Firer4]

Can I get some insights on the volcanion rise? Was it a specific set or maybe the use in a specific weather that lead you to it or was it more of a combination of things? Is there a rise to A- possibly on the horizon or was it already a close call to push it to B+?

 

[Ruparajan]

Can I know why magnezone is placed A? I did some calcs to prove why it is not reliable in checking most mons except skarm/corv. I think magnezone is considered a ferro check so this proves it is not-
252 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 126-150 (35.7 - 42.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery
Kartana can 2 shot magnezone with any set it uses-
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 234-278 (82.9 - 98.5%)
-- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 272-320 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 180-214 (63.8 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Here are calcs to prove that magnezone can always take a hit (Not showing for all sets as have same basic bulk)-
252 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 128-152 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 144-171 (55.5 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Here are melmetal calc-
116 Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 308-364 (109.2 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO (AV)
252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 222-262 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (T-wave set)
252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 372-440 (131.9 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO (protect)

 

[Clementine]

Can I know why magnezone is placed A?

Basically, the Magnet Pull ability allows it to be an extremely good support mon for a lot of powerfull breakers. Pokemon such as Tapu Lele, Kartana or Weavile all benefit from Magnezone's ability to beat Steel types, or at least weaken them.
As you said, Magnezone is quite good at trapping Corviknight (and the less common Skarmory), but the Iron Defense set is a reliable way to beat (or at the very least, weaken) Ferrothorn.

252 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 126-150 (35.7 - 42.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

If this calc is unimpressive, remember that Magnezone can easily make use of Iron Defense, and even items such as Rocky Helmet and Expert Belt to beat Ferrothorn 1-on-1. Take a look at turns 4-7 of this replay from OLT finals to see how Zone can deal with Ferro.
Same can be said for Melmetal, as the Iron Defense set can beat a lot of different Melm sets. If it doesn't straight up beat Melmetal 1v1, Zone can at least put it in range of moves like Psychic from Lele, or Sacred Sword from Kartana. Once again, take a look at turns 10-14 of this replay form OLT finals.