Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [See Post #1720 on Page 69]

While everyone is talking about the abuser :arctozolt: I feel like :ninetales-alola: can also rise to B- as it enables arctozolt in what it is doing it also enables other dangerous pokemon such as kyurem, dragapult, garchomp, and many more setup sweepers and wallbreakers in a similar vein. with it being capable of setting veil due to the fantastic speed tier it provides, the general great options and supportive tools in encore, hypnosis and even disable, and even moves like hail to deter the weather upon the switch of an enemy weather setter and freeze-dry and even moonblast as great coverage options, it is the best selling point to grant this playstyle -- hail -- and furthermore veil offense a great place in the metagame. alola-ninetales also has risen alot in its usage during olt, as hail / veil is trending a lot and with high ladder- and wcop replays and its capability to even threaten common pokemon directly with its stabs, it has a grants itself alot of opportunities to set up the aurora veil. icy rock can be chosen with arctozolt to extend its turns to break with slush rush, and it can still function as a veil setter which gives ninetales alola more than enough tools to support its teammates in a safe and dangerous way.

I feel like both ice-types should rise, arctozolt and ninetales-alola, the abuser and the enabler.
I have a slight problem with this. While yes, Atales (Just gonna abbreviate Alolan-Ninetales like that) may be able to setup screens, it runs into a problem. Kartana. It speed ties with Atales, but unlike Atales, It can afford to run scarf. It would also be a pretty obvious switch out, which could let you set up something else by switching. There's also Scizor, which is much more comfortable as an anti Atales because it will be able to predict a switch and U-Turn into something better suited for whatever you send in to counter it. It's impossible to stay in against even a Scizor with no attack investment unless you decided to go 252 HP, 252+ Def, but who would do that just to avoid Scizor? It doesn't even stop Kartana. I think Atales is fine where it is at C+ (I believe that's where it is?) because of it's crippling steel weakness, an opposing slower weather setup like TTar, Torkoal, and Hippowdon, and it already has a counter in its tier, Gengar.

Anyways, I came to talk about TTar, and that's what I'm going to do now.
TTar is weirdly underrated compared to the more prominent sand setter, Hippowdon. The only real difference is Hippowdon's ability to recover, it's slightly better defense and hp, and it's electric immunity.
Let's start with coverage. The only real attacking move Hippowdon uses is Earthquake, as it's status moves are much better than mediocre coverage. TTar has a lot. It's got a decent fighting move in Body Press, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Crunch, Outrage, Heavy Slam, Iron Head, the elemental punches for some surprise hits on something like Ferro and surprisingly, Kartana without band. But, there's nothing wrong with the classics, considering not much resists ground, dark, rock.
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 340-404 (84.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 224-264 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
But the biggest advantage TTar has over Hippowdon is special defense. Hippowdon sort of just folds to most of the special attackers above it, besides of course, Heatran. Some quick calcs to compare.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 522-614 (124.2 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 153-180 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 636-750 (151.4 - 178.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 218-258 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 82-97 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon in Psychic Terrain: 375-442 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

It's sort of even with Volcarona, Bulky QD can't 2HKO, but Hippowdon can, But offensive QD has a 3/4 chance of 2HKOing.
And I won't even bother with Tornadus-T
But Ttar can handle mostly everything above it.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 5 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 303-363 (75 - 89.8%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 120-143 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 153-180 (47 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 206-246 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 328-388 (116.7 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 380-448 (94 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 141-166 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 124-147 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 191-227 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- not a KO
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 282-332 (88.9 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 128-152 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only real problem with TTar is its 4x weakness to fighting, however, compared to all it's other advantages over Hippowdon, I'm nominating it for A- at the least. I think it's a better sand setter, plus it can be a better defensive pressure because of its special bulk, while also being able to put on offensive pressure with a ddance set. If more info is needed to nominate, I'd be happy to add more.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
I have a slight problem with this. While yes, Atales (Just gonna abbreviate Alolan-Ninetales like that) may be able to setup screens, it runs into a problem. Kartana.
This logic is very flawed as, when you go by speed ties, then no Pokemon would rise, guess what a Weavile also speed ties with an opposing Weavile, and so does Dragapult and many more Pokemon, even Specially defensive heatran might speed tie with another. Just because it speed ties with Kartana, doesnt make its very strong niche less viable or hinders it to a rise. In overall not only set Alola Ninetales a stage for tiself as THE hail and Veil supporter in OU but also is the enabler of that archetype. Furthermore, Ox the Fox proved, it can do much more things than 'just' enable other Pokemon is a very 'cool' way. It can also pose a threat itself with a Nasty Plot set, its great Speed tier, alongsode resistances to Weavile moves and Kyurem makes it a great Nasty Plot user, it can also setup on other relevant Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Hydreigon.
But the logic with speed ties alone is very flawed, that must seen be objected on all Pokemon, not only Alola Ninetales, If we go by that logic.

Opposing weather also isnt that prevelant anymore with sand being easily checked with the limited abusers its bound with, Dracozolt & Excadrill.
Rain has the problem that Freeze-Dry of Alola Ninetales + Arctozolt are one of the best Pokemon against this archetype and Sun also isnt that relevant anymore.

I find it also very weird that you oversells Tyranitar which has the same issue against Kartana, if not more, and also has issues against Pokemon like Scizor and even more against other relevant metagame staples such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Zeraora, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Tapu lele, and many more. Tyranitar faces even more issues currently than Alola Ninetales does and doesn't exactly do the better in countering special attackers, as most special attackers have U-turn in their arsenal to weaken Tyranitar in the long run.

I think you oversold Tyranitar here but undersold Alola Ninetales at the same time, despite Tyranitar having more issues doing its job constantly.
 
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I have a slight problem with this. While yes, Atales (Just gonna abbreviate Alolan-Ninetales like that) may be able to setup screens, it runs into a problem. Kartana. It speed ties with Atales, but unlike Atales, It can afford to run scarf. It would also be a pretty obvious switch out, which could let you set up something else by switching. There's also Scizor, which is much more comfortable as an anti Atales because it will be able to predict a switch and U-Turn into something better suited for whatever you send in to counter it. It's impossible to stay in against even a Scizor with no attack investment unless you decided to go 252 HP, 252+ Def, but who would do that just to avoid Scizor? It doesn't even stop Kartana. I think Atales is fine where it is at C+ (I believe that's where it is?) because of it's crippling steel weakness, an opposing slower weather setup like TTar, Torkoal, and Hippowdon, and it already has a counter in its tier, Gengar.

Anyways, I came to talk about TTar, and that's what I'm going to do now.
TTar is weirdly underrated compared to the more prominent sand setter, Hippowdon. The only real difference is Hippowdon's ability to recover, it's slightly better defense and hp, and it's electric immunity.
Let's start with coverage. The only real attacking move Hippowdon uses is Earthquake, as it's status moves are much better than mediocre coverage. TTar has a lot. It's got a decent fighting move in Body Press, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Crunch, Outrage, Heavy Slam, Iron Head, the elemental punches for some surprise hits on something like Ferro and surprisingly, Kartana without band. But, there's nothing wrong with the classics, considering not much resists ground, dark, rock.
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 340-404 (84.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 224-264 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
But the biggest advantage TTar has over Hippowdon is special defense. Hippowdon sort of just folds to most of the special attackers above it, besides of course, Heatran. Some quick calcs to compare.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 522-614 (124.2 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 153-180 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 636-750 (151.4 - 178.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 218-258 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 82-97 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon in Psychic Terrain: 375-442 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

It's sort of even with Volcarona, Bulky QD can't 2HKO, but Hippowdon can, But offensive QD has a 3/4 chance of 2HKOing.
And I won't even bother with Tornadus-T
But Ttar can handle mostly everything above it.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 5 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 303-363 (75 - 89.8%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 120-143 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 153-180 (47 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 206-246 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 328-388 (116.7 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 380-448 (94 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 141-166 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 124-147 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 191-227 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- not a KO
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 282-332 (88.9 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 128-152 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only real problem with TTar is its 4x weakness to fighting, however, compared to all it's other advantages over Hippowdon, I'm nominating it for A- at the least. I think it's a better sand setter, plus it can be a better defensive pressure because of its special bulk, while also being able to put on offensive pressure with a ddance set. If more info is needed to nominate, I'd be happy to add more.
Just wanna point out that Hippowdon never runs no special defense.
 

ausma

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I have a slight problem with this. While yes, Atales (Just gonna abbreviate Alolan-Ninetales like that) may be able to setup screens, it runs into a problem. Kartana. It speed ties with Atales, but unlike Atales, It can afford to run scarf. It would also be a pretty obvious switch out, which could let you set up something else by switching. There's also Scizor, which is much more comfortable as an anti Atales because it will be able to predict a switch and U-Turn into something better suited for whatever you send in to counter it. It's impossible to stay in against even a Scizor with no attack investment unless you decided to go 252 HP, 252+ Def, but who would do that just to avoid Scizor? It doesn't even stop Kartana. I think Atales is fine where it is at C+ (I believe that's where it is?) because of it's crippling steel weakness, an opposing slower weather setup like TTar, Torkoal, and Hippowdon, and it already has a counter in its tier, Gengar.

Anyways, I came to talk about TTar, and that's what I'm going to do now.
TTar is weirdly underrated compared to the more prominent sand setter, Hippowdon. The only real difference is Hippowdon's ability to recover, it's slightly better defense and hp, and it's electric immunity.
Let's start with coverage. The only real attacking move Hippowdon uses is Earthquake, as it's status moves are much better than mediocre coverage. TTar has a lot. It's got a decent fighting move in Body Press, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Crunch, Outrage, Heavy Slam, Iron Head, the elemental punches for some surprise hits on something like Ferro and surprisingly, Kartana without band. But, there's nothing wrong with the classics, considering not much resists ground, dark, rock.
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 340-404 (84.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 224-264 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
But the biggest advantage TTar has over Hippowdon is special defense. Hippowdon sort of just folds to most of the special attackers above it, besides of course, Heatran. Some quick calcs to compare.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 522-614 (124.2 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 153-180 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 636-750 (151.4 - 178.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 218-258 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 82-97 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon in Psychic Terrain: 375-442 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

It's sort of even with Volcarona, Bulky QD can't 2HKO, but Hippowdon can, But offensive QD has a 3/4 chance of 2HKOing.
And I won't even bother with Tornadus-T
But Ttar can handle mostly everything above it.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 5 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 303-363 (75 - 89.8%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 120-143 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 153-180 (47 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 206-246 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 328-388 (116.7 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 380-448 (94 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 141-166 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 124-147 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 191-227 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- not a KO
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 282-332 (88.9 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 128-152 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only real problem with TTar is its 4x weakness to fighting, however, compared to all it's other advantages over Hippowdon, I'm nominating it for A- at the least. I think it's a better sand setter, plus it can be a better defensive pressure because of its special bulk, while also being able to put on offensive pressure with a ddance set. If more info is needed to nominate, I'd be happy to add more.
There are some things in this post that are generally uninformed, and I wanted to address them. Katy did a pretty good job breaking down the primary issues here as far as Ninetales-Alola goes, and I do want to emphasize how it speed tying Kartana means literally nothing given its primary role as a dual Screen and Hail setter. At most it means Ninetales-Alola has to win a 50/50 to pick it off, which isn't something you should really be doing unless you're offensive and can afford to risk the speed tie, and you can simply just get out once you set your Hail up which is what Ninetales-Alola is hugely meant to do on Hail cores. Furthermore, Scarf Kartana is a set that, while viable, is not that great imo since you lose out on a sizeable amount of power that makes Kartana threatening to begin with, and Hail's incredible team versatility makes it pretty easy to patch on answers. As for Scizor It's also really easy for Ninetales-Alola to simply just... use Aurora Veil on the projected Scizor switch-in, then get out once Veil and Hail are set, by which point Ninetales-Alola has done its job at that given time. These two specific matchups which are misinterpreted here in how they play out do not warrant keeping what's a fairly powerful archetype currently in the lower ranks. I would like to support raising both Pokemon either to B or B+.

As for the second part: the big flaw I see in this Tyranitar to Hippowdon comparison is that it completely disregards the fact that Hippowdon pretty always runs Special bulk right now. It's important to remember that Hippowdon may have very attractive Physical bulk, but investing in it gives Hippowdon pretty much no value in a metagame without Cinderace. The main Physical wallbreakers of the tier all stomp on it with super-effective STABs regardless to where investment makes 0 major difference aside from having an easier time landing Toxic against Garchomp, Dragonite, and Buzzwole. However, on the Special side, investing lets you almost always beat Tapu Koko, Dracozolt, non-Hydro Pump Dragapult, Volcarona, Heatran, and Slowking-Galar, all of which are really important to have long-term checks against. It doesn't really need any kind of investment to beat Zeraora, Excadrill, and Dragonite, either. However, the main thing that keeps Hippowdon superior in my eyes is its access to longevity as a bulky Ground-type, while not reinforcing key weaknesses that plague balances. I don't disagree that Tyranitar has its niche, but it's disingenuous to paint Hippowdon in the light of being a poor Special tank when you don't even give it a fair shake and recognize why exactly it has seen use in the first place.
 
I agree with a swampert drop, and if I had the guts I'd nom in to UR, it just misses out on all of the big ups that the other bulky water types on the vr (Fini, Quagsire, Gastro, and pex especially) get. It crucially lacks reliable recovery, which all the other bulky water types bar fini get, but fini can be a wincon with CM and check weavile better than the others. All this thing does is click stealth rock and flip turn, not even actually being able to chip the defoggers in this tier because all of them except rotom-wash have roost. Outside of pivoting and stealth rock, this thing offers almost 0 utility, the only things it can scrounge are 1: Yawn (outclassed by auto sleep because switching is a thing people) and 2: Blocking lando-T's attempts to go boom, but explosion landorus-therian is uncommon now and U-turn lando-t is quite common and U-turn cannot be blocked by ANYTHING. That does not resemble a B mon to me. I quite honestly think just having it nommed over quagsire is wrong because of 2 BIG reasons: Recovery and Abilities. when you take a look at the abilities of OU's bulky water types, swampert's is probably the worst: Toxapex gets regenerator (So it doesn't need to spam recover), Gastrodon gets storm drain AND sticky hold (So it can either block water type attacks OR not loose its leftovers through an entire game), Tapu fini gets misty surge (Which stops status from really irritating it), Quagsire gets UNAWARE (Big ability when scizor, garchomp, clefable, the aforementioned tapu fini, and dnite exist). Swampert gets damp. Damp. This can block boom as already mentioned, but does it come anywhere near the bucketloads of utility offered by regenerator, storm drain, sticky hold, misty surge, and unaware? That just seems so confusing about how that can ever be that good.
Edit: Alright I get it stop flooding this post with reactions its cluttering my mailbox thanks
 
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keldeo.gif

C --> B

Keldeo is in a really strange spot right now but I think with the right team team support it's capable of being an excellent cleaner. The main competition for it is Urshifu-Rapid-Strike which is a decent bit stronger while having the same stab alongside priority. Where I think Keldeo carves out a niche for itself is as a Scarfer when compared to Urshifu thanks to its 108 base speed. Urshifu's 97 base speed means that Jolly won't even be outspeeding base 100's. With just water, and fighting coverage alongside icy wind Keldeo is capable of threatening just about every fast pokemon in the tier and only after a bit of chip, taking them down outright. Flip turn is also excellent for pivoting when the opponent has a Pex that can handle Keldeo meaning you can keep up momentum on those kinds of walls.
 
Hello
Unfortunately there are some uh questionable elements in your claims
Pikachu_fan4820


All this thing does is click stealth rock and flip turn, not even actually being able to chip the defoggers in this tier because all of them except rotom-wash have roost.
It's a pivoting rocker, so it's *meant* to setup rocks and pivot. The term "chip" means low damage, and flip turn is low damage, so it's still chip. If you're forcing a fogger to roost by flip turn chip that's honestly your win lol. All foggers do not have roost, basically torn, so your sentence is oddly framed, I'm assuming you meant reliable recovery, which rotom still kinda has with pain split (not as reliable as roost or regen ofc but it's a thing).
Outside of pivoting and stealth rock, this thing offers almost 0 utility
My man, you have any clue how much utility it has just *with* rocks and flip? It's like saying sub kyurem has no recovery outside roost -_-
Also, the statement itself is false. Its special bulk with the typing gives it a formidable defensive profile

Yawn (outclassed by auto sleep because switching is a thing people)
Outclassed is used in the wrong sense here but w/e. The *entire* purpose of yawn *is* to force switches, thwart setup sweepers, make a fogger thing twice about fogging, etc. And because of flip turn, swamp loves forcing switches. Yawn isn't meant to put things to sleep, rather, it's meant to pose the threat of sleep.

U-turn cannot be blocked by ANYTHING
If from your knowledge, u turn isn't blocked by anything, why even bring up the argument here? It's wrong anyway, shedinja exists
I quite honestly think just having it nommed over quagsire is wrong
If two Pokemon have the same typing, it does *not* mean they are necessarily directly comparable. Swampert and quag have wayyy diff roles and niches in the current metagame. Swampert is a pivoting rocker, fits on bo and balance, while quag is an unaware wall thats solely for stall or maybe semi stall. Last i checked, bo/balance != Stall/semi stall. Go build a successful quag bo or swampert stall first (the same arguments can be given for swamp vs gastro as well but to a lesser extent, so I'm not highlighting that)
The type of teams swamp fits on generally don't play a long enough game to where swamp would die before doing anything, take grass spam for example. Swamp is the literal defination of role compression, it's a rocker, a pivot, special wall, elec immune, etc. But because of its lack of longevity, meaning it can't do all of this for too long, it's not higher up on the vr.
I'm kinda on the fence about dropping swamp but I can defo see why people would feel that way, so w/e

Have a good day everyone :blobwizard:
 
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:Bisharp: A- -> A I'm getting some Deja Vu from this

Bisharp is insanely broken, it threatens a lot of mons that would otherwise have favorable matchups against it, because of the amazing combination of Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Defiant, Dark type STAB, Swords Dance and 125 attack; getting it on the field isn't the easiest thing of all time, but once it finally switches in (safely) and uses Swords Dance, it forces a huge mind-game on the opponent, should the opponent try to switch out to a safer mon and do something like Will-O-Wisp it but risk taking a Knock Off, or should the opponent try to make a mon take a Sucker Punch and hope that it lives? A wrong prediction means that a mon has a huge chance of dying, or at the very least, something is going to take a ton of damage. This mon destroys walls, hyper offense, Dragapult, and can take on Landorus, Heatran, and Toxapex (be aware of Haze and Scald though), however, it's really held back by fighting types (and fighting type moves), being reliant on no hazards on the field because of Focus Sash and poor bulk, and crappy prediction, but get past those problems, and Bisharp will destroy a lot of mons (and look like a Pokemon incarnation of a gun)
 
View attachment 364696
C --> B

Keldeo is in a really strange spot right now but I think with the right team team support it's capable of being an excellent cleaner. The main competition for it is Urshifu-Rapid-Strike which is a decent bit stronger while having the same stab alongside priority. Where I think Keldeo carves out a niche for itself is as a Scarfer when compared to Urshifu thanks to its 108 base speed. Urshifu's 97 base speed means that Jolly won't even be outspeeding base 100's. With just water, and fighting coverage alongside icy wind Keldeo is capable of threatening just about every fast pokemon in the tier and only after a bit of chip, taking them down outright. Flip turn is also excellent for pivoting when the opponent has a Pex that can handle Keldeo meaning you can keep up momentum on those kinds of walls.
I agree that Keldeo could deserve a higher VR coz Water + Fighting STAB + Pivoting is really good like Urshifu-R has shown, and Keldeo differentiates itself from Shifu due to higher speed and being a special attacker. It, however, needs more support than Shifu coz U-Turn on Shifu means that it can actually threaten supposed checks like Slowking and chip harder vs Slowbro
 
I agree that Keldeo could deserve a higher VR coz Water + Fighting STAB + Pivoting is really good like Urshifu-R has shown, and Keldeo differentiates itself from Shifu due to higher speed and being a special attacker. It, however, needs more support than Shifu coz U-Turn on Shifu means that it can actually threaten supposed checks like Slowking and chip harder vs Slowbro
Oh yeah I'm not denying Urshifu-Rapid-Strike is an overall better mon than Keldeo but I'm just pointing out Keldeo has its niche that Urshifu can't do
 
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I really believe these Pokémon are super relevant in the current meta, and only hesitate to nominate all 3 to A+ to first see some opinions.

:Rillaboom: :Kartana: :Volcarona:

Rillaboom @ miracle seed
252 atk / 252 Spd / 4 whatever
Adamant nature
- woodhammer
- grassy glide
- swords dance
- drain punch / knock off / super powers

Kartana @ leftovers
252 spDef / 252 spd / 4 HP
Jolly nature
- Leaf blade
- Swords dance
- knock off
- sacred sword

Volcarona @ heavy duty boots
Choose between 248hp / 248 def / 12 SpD and bold OR you can invest speed at the cost of bulk to beat 383 speed after a quiver dance (that is Weavile speed) or 372 if you just want to beat tornadus
bold nature
- quiver dance
- flamethrower
- roost
- your choice here... I like psychic the most, as it allows you to wincon. There’s other cool moves like will-o-wisp for Garchomp, safeguard for blissey, u turn for a truly bulky pivot, etc

Incase you think 0 speed is weird in a meta with :bisharp: popping up occasionally, just add 16 EVs at the cost of a little bulk to hit 240 speed. Personally I like the 12 SpD to perform better against :dragapult: with specs shadow ball. The given spread means you can often get +2 to your speed even with a SpD drop from shadow ball and 2 bad damage rolls
by giving these three characters bulkier sets designed to last a little longer in a game, they really do wreck things. For example:




instead of life orb on :Rillaboom:, you can run miracle seed , with wood hammer + grassy glide. At +2, wood hammer will nab the KO on max def bold toxapex! :toxapex: , yes Rillaboom can cleanly OHKO the crème de la crème of multi purpose nuisance pivot on its most defensively optimised set, without running life orb.

:Rillaboom: +2 Grassy glide is a guaranteed OHKO on specs :dragapult: after it pivots into stealth rock twice!!

you also get some other cool KOs with this type of rilla, such as a clean 2hko on max def bold unaware clefable :clefable: ! , you will probably not even miss the life orb. My favourite number is possibly the fact that Rillaboom can cleanly 2hko it’s best offensive check in the game, that is :tornadus-therian: ! Any big and fast bird running offensive sets cannot switch into wood hammer followed by grassy glide!

You’ll find a lot of games end with rilla under 20%, and it’s only around because instead of losing 4% per turn, it’s gaining 6%! For example, with a miracle seed, you can reliably get +4 verse most variants of Ferrothorn :ferrothorn:, making drain punch a viable alternative over super power (I would argue better, as super power is only good for corviknight, and the miracle seed set is one that doesn’t want the -atk drops, drain punch is also really cool vs :Kartana: as it cannot do much damage back).

Rillaboom is really really really appreciating the reduction in :zapdos: , :Mandibuzz: and even :skarmory: somewhat.

252HP variants of :tornadus-therian: is currently the only common offensive check that Rillaboom will regularly struggle with.

I sometimes win games after 4 Pokémon are down, and the opponent has 6, because all the Rillaboom checks are softened to their % thresholds where they fall to rilla.

it also helps that Rillaboom is almost single handedly reducing the high-level viability of sand, rain and even hail to a degree. (Note the rain battle shows the utility of wood hammer to open a team, and then Rillaboom essentially solos the rain team after trading skarmory)

an interesting perk of running Rillaboom, is that it’s best checks are all flying type! The only noteable one that isn’t is :buzzwole: . This means most of its checks cannot benefit from its terrain, whereas the ground, electric and fire types partners love coming in on these flying types and getting some healing.

In conclusion, Rillaboom is highly useful. the choice band variant lost value a long time ago, and new sets are better. And it seems like most people value Rillaboom based on its choice band set, and I’m assuming this is partially contributing to it not being in A+ yet.

I’ll go ahead and say something controversial,,, any set with Rillaboom running choice band glide / u turn / knock off / filler right now is B tier at best

—-


:Kartana:

now onto Kartana, in this meta of Tapu koko and Tapu fini being essentially the most useful semi-offensive pivots. Specially defensive Kartana shines.

by running 252 SpD ev’s and a regular jolly nature, you can do these:

pivot in on :Tapu fini: , literally any move... except maybe rare ones like specs ice beam. And then immediately soften the switch in with a knock off, or alternatively swords dance.

Prevent the 2hko from :Tapu koko: , this is very important, because a lot of teams will rely on a koko as a “faster than Kartana” revenger, and typically Kartana can be taken out with as little as 70-85%, but with a specially defensive set, koko struggles to break Kartana at 50%

Kartana with special defensive investments also has a pretty neat advantage of not caring about the trending :arctozolt: and :ninetales: teams. You can even run smart strike if you want a near-auto win against those teams.

you retain your ability to survive knock off from :weavile: and 2x earthquakes from defensive :landorus-therian: , using leftovers as an item is incredibly important because in many games you’ll find that you can even sometimes 1v1 a :corviknight: or even (if it’s sub 80%) a :skarmory: that is running body press! If you also run a Rillaboom, the grassy terrain means that even 100% skarmory needs to be very very weary and rocky helmet max def corviknight :corviknight: isn’t even a proper counter anymore (even at 100%!!!)

it’s probably another idea to run 252HP instead of SpD , however that would mostly be slightly useful against :skarmory: and :corviknight: , whilst giving you a good shot at getting past :zeraora: . I think the ability to reliably deal with the Tapu four, including the slightly trending :Tapu Bulu: and :Tapu lele: is more important

Kartana is currently an absolute behemoth of an offensive attacker and i would even value it higher than Weavile against the most common archetypes. It only truly suffers against teams packing uncommon Pokémon like :zapdos: and :Mandibuzz: as both of those are extremely unlikely to be beaten by any variant of Kartana unless it’s a lure set running sub-optimal moves (which isn’t worth it for uncommon counters). The only thing truly holding back Kartana is :tornadus-therian: as it is a very challenging Pokémon to wear out and teams that pack it will possibly limit your Kartana value.

In any case, Kartana is highly relevant in the current meta.


:Volcarona:

this moth is really more than a match up moth. It’s still the best wincon in my opinion. It easily can act as a defensive trade-for-trade against offensive teams in a pinch as well.

banded :Weavile: cannot OHKO the bulkiest sets with any of its moves.. SD Weavile cannot OHKO at +2 without a boosting item, and most run HDB

+2 Kartana with life orb cannot reliably OHKO, although it is really close.. if there isn’t a life orb, then Kartana will have to trade

Bulky Volcarona is literally (in my opinion), the best offensive switch in to :corviknight: there is! I think it has the edge over koko due to the chance of burns and the pressure of finding a non-passive Pokémon to switch into the inevitable flamethrower, that doesn’t mind getting chipped over a game (or a small 10% burn chance). It definitely outperforms :zeraora:

banded aqua jet from urshifu :urshifu-rapid-strike: cannot OHKO bulky Volcarona, even in the rain

Volcarona is also the best offensive check to :kyurem: due to it not caring about any move except draco meteor as well as :Melmetal: that don’t pack rock slide

:dragonite: isn’t really a true counter, but more of a check to the bulkiest variants, and needs to run dual wing beat , and hope for no burn, to have a chance.

Volcarona really loves the fact that :Tyranitar: (the second best Volcarona counter in the game) is on the downtrend.

in short, I think volc is truly the best win con and doubles as a strong defensive gap filler, and only suffers vs rain teams. Against literally every other team, even sand teams and definitely against all balanced/offensive teams, it can pull its weight due to the defensive utility and its ability to force out so many Pokémon whilst regularly threatening burns.
 
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Katy

Banned deucer.
rises:

:volcanion:

from c to b / b+

specs volcanion is a great wallbreaker in the ou tier, with being able to threaten the majority of the tier with its stabs and coverage choices. it can also deal with most pokemon due to its great coverage in the back with sludge wave and earth power. steam eruption is a hard hitting move, even causing sturdy water resists to take a huge chunk of damage with the threat of a burn. it can perform well on different teams, be it rain, bulky offense, or even hail like we saw all too often recently with the team by ox the fox. being able to also threaten rain back with its decent defenses, ability, and typing is also worthful, volcanion should definitely rise to b or even b+ as its winrate in olt swiss is just insane.

regarding :arctozolt: & :ninetales-alola:

to b+

i think b- (which i initially considered for them) is way too low considering the potential, the winratio in olt swiss and its great way of experimenting with it. its not restricted to certain teammates unlike other weather teams, dragon claws and ox the fox's versions went both pretty successfully, with dragon claws winning tiebreaks in wcop and ox the fox's winning in olt swiss 9 out of 10 games in overall. i think considering this fact, both these pokemon should rise up to b+ as theyre better than the far more niche stuff in b- and even b. i feel b+ is a great placement for both these pokemon the abuser and setter.

:tapu fini:

from a to a+

good wincon with its calm mind set, but also a great forme of speed control with its choice scarf set. tapu fini cemented itself as a metagame staple with checking a huge bunch of pokemon like heatran, urshifu-r, and weavile which are otherwise threatening metagame staples on their own. tapu fini is even able to beat toxapex with the trick scarf set and natures madness, whirlpool, and moonblast, which otherwise is a roadblock for it.

:tapu lele:

from a to a+

tapu lele is a dangerous wallbreaker with its choice specs set, and even choice scarf has its merits in enabling it to revengekill weavile, dragapult, and otehr faster threats such as tapu koko and tornadus-t. calm mind also has great potential in cleaning up weakened teams in the lategame. with choice specs being the most prevelant set, and a very dangerous one, it deserves a rise in the vr, as its able to break through blissey and glowking with a strong psyshock. psychic and moonblast are great dual stabs with psychic hitting even steel-types for a decent amount of damage tearing and weakening them down rather quickly unless they have decent forme of recovery such as roost in corviknights case, but in overall tapu lele should rise.

:melmetal: & :ferrothorn:

from a to a+

both steel-types perform and operate fantastic on numerous teams with melmetal being capable of running different sets to catch its checks off guard, with twave and toxic both having their great utility and with iron fist boosted punches (double iron bash, ice punch, thunder punch) being capable of threatening offensive teams to switch into it. earthquake and superpower also have their great merits with covering a great amount of pokemon in the metagame. it can even be ran on trick room teams and excels great on them.
ferrothorn with spikes stack and utility in knock off and leech seed is a fundamental pillar on teams which rely on a pokemon with semi-recovery to get some longevity to set up the spikes in the long run of the game. ferrothorn is also able to (semi)-check urshifu-r, rillaboom, tapu koko, zeraora, and tapu fini makes it also great as a defensive switch-in to these pokemon.

:kartana:

from a to a+

great pokemon with sd sets and choice band sets being very relevant as wallbreaking utility, with a great speed tier coupled and amazing coverage and stab options this pokemon offers alot for offensive oriented teams. it can even run scarf sets to prfit of its great speed tier to revengekill most problematic and afster pokemon such as dragapult, weavile, and tapu koko therefore fits well as a speed control on many teams also. kartanas pure power is just capable of forcing certain pokemon such as corviknight to be kept relatively healthy to check it decently well. i think kartana should rise a subrank here.

drops:


:tyranitar:

from b+ to b

tyranitar isnt great as a standalone breaker with getting checked relatively easy when it comes to its choice band set. sand being more and more uncommon and less successful and with competition from the long lasting hippowdon due to slack off it isnt the best tool on sand teams anymore. sands decline also means for tyranitar that its usage heavily dropped and tyranitar in itself isnt a worthy option anymore, when hippowdon is a also a great tool to check dangerous attackers such as dragapult with its specially defensive set.

:mandibuzz:

from b+ to b

its relevancy is gone, it was good during the spectrier metagame to check it defensively, but shortly and slowly fell more and more out of favor on any teams, with tapu lele, tapu koko, clefable, magnezone, tapu fini, and weavile so common it faces too many enemies to be considered in teams as a worthy option for defog support and utility option. it cant keep up momentum that easily with all of these pokemon being around so often and so commonly. mandibuzz also receives nearly zero tournament usage and its usage stats tell it isnt that considered altogether anymore.

thanks for reading and have a great day everyone <3
 
Why are people who think Mandibuzz should drop a subrank or two not pushing for it to be unranked (or at least C)? Like from the descriptions a lot of folks are giving, it seems like people think Mandibuzz is not only outclassed but also has nearly no niche.

FYI I don't think Mandibuzz should drop to C, and that it still has a solid enough niche, I just find that the wording people use often implies a greater drop in rank than the actual drop proposed.
 
Why are people who think Mandibuzz should drop a subrank or two not pushing for it to be unranked (or at least C)? Like from the descriptions a lot of folks are giving, it seems like people think Mandibuzz is not only outclassed but also has nearly no niche.

FYI I don't think Mandibuzz should drop to C, and that it still has a solid enough niche, I just find that the wording people use often implies a greater drop in rank than the actual drop proposed.
Mandibuzz has resistances to grass and ghost which means it retains defensive utility on the special side vs top tier threats like Dragapult and the increasingly popular Blacephalon, and on the physical side vs Rillaboom and Kartana.
Access to recovery in roost, pivoting in u-turn, hazard removal in defog and status in Toxic means that Mandibuzz will be able to... do stuff. As in, it won't just come in and resist attacks. It can remain healthy, keep up momentum, remove hazards or threaten the opponent back.
Ofc other mons have those moves, but Mandibuzz's defensive stats and typing mean that it can make use of the tools it has somewhat effectively.
As such, it would not be fair to say Mandibuzz has no niche whatsoever.

Katy makes a very valid point however. The meta isn't kind to mandibuzz and it's not going to be checking all of the threats you'd want it to check. Other defoggers can do just as much, if not more than buzz can, while not being so vulnerable defensively.
And because of this, it would be appropriate to move Mandibuzz down. It does not belong in B+ with mons that are far more consistent and just better like Rotom-W and Victini.

Ofc not being very good =/= super trash. But while B+ -> B has been suggested, I think B+ -> B- would more accurately reflect Mandibuzz's viability in the current meta. And having looked back a few pages, I can see that other people have suggested the same thing.

I cba to find every nom I agree with but this one is fairly obvious

:rotom-wash: B+ -> A-
 
Well, might as well throw in my two cents about Mandibuzz.
:ss/Mandibuzz: -> B-/C+

Now, Mandi would probably be a solid OU mon if a) Corviknight didn't exist and b) it didn't lose to almost every relevant special attacker. Corviknight is the main factor driving Mandi down, with a superior typing, superior ability, superior offensive pressure, Toxic immunity, and the freedom to run an item besides Boots. Sure, Mandi doesn't need to worry about getting trapped by Magnezone, but any max Speed Zone outspeeds the current Mandi spread, meaning Mandi is forced to hard switch against it, and its support options don't do it much good since it can't afford to drop any of Foul Play, U-turn (or else loses momentum) and Roost, plus why run it at all if it's not your Defogger? Even mons you'd think it could handle better can beat it: Mandi loses to Blacephalon's Fire STAB and gets ruined by Trick, Pult can 2HKO with Draco if Mandi has taken any chip or just predict and U-turn out, Bisharp comfortably outspeeds and 2HKOs with +2 Iron Head, is set-up fodder for Volcarona and while it can take Magma Storm alright, Heatran can outspeed and abuse trapping to Toxic it. So, what can Mandi handle that Corv can't? Well, I actually managed to find two things Mandi can help with.
:ss/Hydreigon: :ss/Slowking-Galar:
While they may not be the most defining threats atm, Hydreigon and Glowking can both pose a rather nasty threat if one doesn't properly prepare. Hydreigon can only 2HKO with Draco, which it doesn't usually run because Dark Pulse and coverage are better for hitting the meta. NP Hydra has it worse, since it usually only runs DP/EP and +2 Dark Pulse requires at least one flinch to score the KO, quite possibly 2; it could 2HKO with +2 Flamethrower, but that would require losing coverage for Heatran or giving up longevity. Sure, Mandi can't 1v1 Hydra, but it can take a hit and pivot into a faster threat like Koko, forcing Hydra out.

Mandi's best MU in the current meta is easily Glowking. Corviknight doesn't want to stay in on Glow's Flamethrower, which can 2HKO it between Rocks and Brave Bird recoil and potential burn, so you have to go out into something else and risk Glowking predicting you. Mandi, meanwhile, has the ability to 1v1 Glowking with Foul Play if it doesn't switch, forcing Glowking out since it can't 2HKO even with Sludge Bomb poison and Mandi can just Roost off damage (and makes Ice Beam even weaker against it); it can also potentially switch in on a Future Sight in a pinch.
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Slowking-Galar: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
124 SpA Slowking-Galar Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Sure, Mandi isn't the only or even best answer to these threats; Heatran deals with Glow if it's not Scald, for example. However, it is the one Defogger in the tier that can fulfill the role, and pivoting with U-turn further aids this and gives it some additional depth, such as with offensive partners that don't want to switch into Hydra's coverage. It's not much, hence why I think Mandi really shouldn't be any higher than B-/C+ since it really only checks these two and Ghosts if they're locked into Shadow Ball, but with its inherently solid utility I don't think it's unusable or anything.
 
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:Arctozolt: & :Ninetales-alola:
C/C+ -> C+ or B-
I have seen many people discuss this duo because of OLT, and I have seen many people say they deserve High Bs and even A ranks, but that’s a bit too much to put them in the same tier as Garchomp, Clefable, Slowtriplets, and other staple Pokemon.
It is a major positive that Acrtozolt has a pretty good match-up against some top tiers, but only under the right conditions. That part is why Arctozolt shouldn’t be close to A ranks. A rankings should be reserved for Pokemon that can do their role with little support while such a role that can fit on many different teams.
In Acrtozolt’s case, after all the maintenance required for it as a slow Ice type which requires a specific weather, such weather only lasts for so long and doesn’t stop when Arctozolt is off the field. When there is no Hail, Arctozolt flounders in front of everything that isn’t a slow Water type or slow Flying type.
Obviously, being faster than Zeraora (in Hail and Positive Nature) is good and all, you’re also still slower than Base 104 Neutral Scarfers and Base 90 Positive Scarfers, so you might not even be able to beat something like Garchomp while in Hail. Yeah, for all the set up, precautions, and measures you need this slow Ice type to briefly be good won’t let you revenge kill something 4x weak to your STAB.
I may be making this OTL tread seem like it’s Unviable cow dung, but Arctozolt’s saving grace in Bolt Beak does mean it can be worth the difficulty and constraints you would need for Arctozolt to not instantly faint getting on the field or otherwise become death fodder.

Ninetales-A is a lot more independent, can be used on teams without Arctozolt, and can be put on more than just this specific archetype with as high of maintenance. Aurora Veil’s utility and ease of setting against non-tyranitar Pokemon is a pretty good trait. You can use 1 extra move that other screen setters can’t do as they need both for different scenarios. That bit is obvious.
What I all say next will probably get me thrown into the Pokemon Mental Institution, but unironically Dragapult, Latias, and Latios (yes Latios) are better screen setters.
One thing about Aurora Veil and screen setting is that it’s often more useful to one screen up at a time, which is because of timing and your opponent’s team composition. You don’t need Light Screen when your opponent’s sole special attacks are Scald and something the set up sweeper you are sending out already resists. Aurora Veil’s usefulness comes in letting Ninetales-A use 3 other moves on the same set instead of compromising one of those moves. And well, because of Tyranitar and Pelipper, it is forced to run Hail like screen setters are forced to run Light Screen with Reflect.
What makes Dragapult, Latias, and Latios better as screensetters is;
A. No one expects them as screensetters, and instead expect them to have more offensive sets. Everyone and their mother knows Ninetales will use Aurora Veil in its set no matter what since that’s its main niche. However, Dragapult, Latias, and Latios could be many things, most of the time hitting hard with Choice Specs Draco that otherwise calls for a more passive Pokemon to switch-in.
B. Pivot/Suicide moves in U-turn, Memento (the GOAT combo for Screen setters and extremely frail set up sweepers), and healing wish. These moves are especially good when Defog can remove screens and lets you 100% safely get what your set up sweeper is without any direct attacking moves.
C. Such pivot/suicide moves compliment Draco Meteors as well, which gives the Dragons some offensive pressure to general list of Pokemon besides Fairies, Steels, and Blissey. All the offensive pressure Ninetales-A has is only really against Pokemon like Pelipper and Pokemon that don’t want to sleep.
D. They are both faster and have more defensive utility, making it easier to set up against aggressive opponents.
Again, while I’m making it sound like Ninetales-A is Unranked worthy, it still has its niche of setting screens and being the best hail setter. I just don’t think this “pistachio” should be among the same rank as “chocolate” and “rocky road”.
 
:ss/mandibuzz:
B+ to B or B-

Mandibuzz has become a bit worse over the last few months. Mandibuzz has shown that it isn't too capable of checking what you would expect it to, such as Kartana and Dragapult. The following calculations show how Mandibuzz must be in absolute perfect condition in order to check them.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mandibuzz: 228-268 (53.9 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 269-317 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To be fair, Mandibuzz can check these mons decently if it is at full HP, a lot of pressure is put onto Mandibuzz over the course of a game, so its walling prowess is only short term. Mandibuzz staying at full isn't the easiest task ever and Knock Off is almost everywhere. Dragapult can also just click U-Turn and eliminate Mandi as an answer. This makes it so that Mandibuzz has to (most of the time) walk on eggshells. The direction SS OU is heading in is not kind to Mandibuzz at all. The rise of Weavile has been quite cruel as that adds even more pressure to Mandibuzz, as this calc would show.

252+ Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 342-402 (80.8 - 95%) -- approx. 2HKO

Due to OLT, Hail has seen a drastic rise in SS OU usage. Mandibuzz despises this, as these offensive teams can play around with it like a toy. In fact, Rain also hurts Mandibuzz as it is ill equipped to handle said onslaught from mons such as Urshifu and Barraskewda. The constant usage of Tapu Koko and Zeraora also harass it immensely. It also has a little less to feast on as Bulu is another grass that it cannot check.

While Mandibuzz isn't a bad mon per se, and it can be solid if used well, but its not the monster it used to be and the meta isn't nice to it, dropping it to UU would be a wonderful idea.
 
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ironwater

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Hello there! I checked the VR yesterday and saw that Slowking was still in A+. I know that it is yet to be updated and no one can deny that Slowking doesn’t belongs to A+ anymore, but I still wanted to make a post about why Slowking is not as good as before and why I think it should drop to B at least.

slowking.gif

A+ -> B

Slowking used to be one of the most interesting choice for a bulky Water type in OU (if not the most). Indeed, this Pokemon has amazing tools, being able to abuse Teleport thanks to Regenerator in order to safely switch into offensive teammates. Future Sight was also a deadly tool against most passive teams that couldn’t pressure Slowking and prevent him from firing a Future Sight before teleporting away.

Now, you may wonder why Slowking should drop while having such an incredible toolkit. I think the main reason is that, because of the metagame shift, Slowking has a hard time against most of the current breakers while other Bulky Water types like Toxapex or Tapu Fini brings way more utility to a team as they can deal with way more threats. To prove my point, I will go over most of the current offensive threat in OU and how they do against Slowking (the list is probably not exhaustive).


Pokemon that beat Slowking:


:weavile:: As most Weavile use a Swords Dance set, Slowking can’t check it at all, Knock Off has a good chance of OHKOing even without a Swords Dance boost. Moreover, Weavile makes Future Sight even harder to use (even if you don’t want to hard switch your Weavile on Scald and a potential burn).

:dragapult:: Dragapult is probably the most common special threat, as its Choice Specs set is really hard to keep in check. Slowking gets easily 2HKO by Shadow Ball and can’t even use Regenerator to scout what move Dragapult will use, because Shadow Ball does about two times what you can regen. I think the prominence of Dragapult is one the main reason that cause Slowking to drop, because you don’t want to use a Special wall unable to check the main special threat of the tier.

:Garchomp:: Garchomp don’t want to switch-in on a Scald from Slowking. However, Slowking can’t really switch-in into Garchomp because Earthquake is an almost guaranteed 2HKO on SpD variant.

:arctozolt:: I’m still including Arctozolt, even if it is not high in the VR yet, because I feel like this Pokemon became way more common recently. Slowking gets completely destroyed by Bolt Beak and it can only stall one turn of Hail on a predicted Blizzard, but it needs to take the risk of an OHKO to do so, and a lot of Arctozolt runs Substitute anyway to avoid relying too much on predictions.

:zeraora:: Unlike Toxapex which may come on a Knock Off/Close Combat and pivot around without risking too much on a Plasma Fist, Slowking can’t even consider come in on Zeraora because Plasma Fist can OHKO on a roll and Knock Off does way too much while removing its Boots.

:kartana:: You could maybe come on a obvious sacred sword from choice locked Kartana, but this Pokemon mainly clicks Knock Off and Leaf Blade, and both these moves annihilate Slowking.

:rillaboom:: I don’t think there’s a single Rillaboom move on which Slowking can come in, maybe Superpower, but it won’t click it often.

:tapu bulu:: Same thing as Rillaboom, and most of the time Bulu doesn’t even use a choice item.

:tapu koko:: Another big special threat that Slowking is unable to deal with because Thunderbolt is a 2HKO and even if you come on Dazzling, you don’t threaten Koko much and will take too much on Dazzling Gleam + Thunderbolt if you try to pivot around it.

:hydreigon:: Even defensive Hydreigon pressure you way too much with Dark Pulse, and Hydreigon doesn’t care about everything you can do. It can even prevent you from using Future Sight very efficiently as it doesn’t mind too much taking a Scald burn (unlike Weavile or Bisharp).

:magnezone:: You don’t even need offensive investment to 2HKO Slowking with Thunderbolt and can use Substitute on a predicted Teleport.

:blacephalon:: Yet another big special threat that Slowking can’t manage well. Specs Shadow Ball almost OHKO and even if you can take its Fire moves pretty well, you will basically lose your Slowking if you lose a single 50/50. Also, you don’t want to be tricked and give it your Boots. (It’s also worth noting that Choice Scarf Blacephalon has a guaranteed 2HKO with Shadow Ball).

:bisharp:: Pretty much the same as Weavile, even if Bisharp is a bit less common. It also hits harder because it can afford using an Attack boosting item and thus Knock Off is a guaranteed OHKO.

:kyurem:: You can somehow handle Kyurem Specs, but you still rely on 50/50 and you will need to use Regenerator two times to recover from a Specs Freeze Dry. SubRoost Kyurem, can easily Sub on Slowking and still pressure it with Freeze Dry without risking much from its attacks.

:melmetal:: Non-banded version often carry Thunder Punch and will kill you with Double Iron Bash + Thunder Punch while the banded one does 63% of your life on a min roll Double Iron Bash.

:hawlucha:: +2 Acrobatics is 70% OHKO and even if you can force it out with Future Sight if you get the roll or use a more Physically defensive spread, you will still lose Slowking in the process.

:victini:: Victini is not a super common Pokemon, but is still seen sometimes. Basically, the Banded set 2HKO Slowking with V-Create and thus doesn’t even need to predict, while non-banded version can easily overwhelm it with Bolt Strike or U-turn. You can try to switch-in Slowking on V-create and scout a locked set or double to an Electric immunity against the Boots one, but it’s still a very risky play and not a good Victini answer.


Pokemon manageable but still annoying:

:urshifu-rapid-strike:: Slowking can help against Urshifu-R, but it’s a pretty bad check and it gets overwhelmed super easily. This is because Close Combat has a chance of 2HKO if you don’t have some Def investment and even then, you need to stay at full health or you won’t check Urshifu anymore. But the main issue is that U-turn does way too much damage and is most of the time pretty safe to use. With Slowking as your Urshifu-R check, you are basically on U-turn away from losing your check to this Pokemon.

:heatran:: Heatran easily overwhelm you with Magma Storm, Toxic and Taunt, unless you manage to win a lot of mindgames. Most of the time, you will manage to weaken Heatran, but you will lose Slowking in the process.

:tapu fini:: You can use Slowking to pivot around Tapu Fini. However, you need to rely on predictions as Taunt prevent you from mindlessly clicking Teleport. You can afford being tricked by Scarf Tapu Fini most of the time, but you need a true check/revenge killer for the Calm Mind one and can easily get trapped and killed by the Whirlpool one.

:volcarona:: You can come and pivot around Volcarona lacking Bug Buzz (and most Volcarona don’t run it, because Tyranitar is not common nowadays). However, you won’t prevent it from freely setting up in front of you as Scald does no type of damage to a boosted Volcarona and you need a revenge killer or a more solid check anyway.

:dragonite:: You can take a +1 Dual Wingbeat and pivot around into a revenge killer or fish for a Scald Burn, but you need to have a revenge killer to +1 Dragonite or to rely on a 30% burn chance.

:tornadus-therian:: You can take a +2 Hurricane against offensive Tornadus-T and pivot out into a revenge killer, but you don’t like getting Knocked Off and you’ll still take a some chip even after regenerator healing. Moreover, non-Nasty Plot variant can easily pivot on Slowking switch-in with U-turn.


Pokemon that Slowking checks well:

:tapu lele:: Tapu Lele is really hard to check defensively, and Slowking is one of the best defensive answer. Indeed, it can take any hit, except the very uncommon Thunderbolt and heal back safely. Moonblast does more than 40% however, and can’t be stalled out unlike Psychic, so you rather have a Moonblast resist paired with Slowking.

:nidoking:: Nidoking is pretty uncommon, but I think that it’s a very good breaker in the current metagame, mainly because its best answer (like our friend Slowking) are becoming rarer. Slowking can take any hits from Nidoking besides Thunderbolt, which is not really used. Moreover, it can retaliate pretty hard, forcing him out which gives him a free Teleport.


We can sum this up by saying that yeah, Slowking does a pretty bad defensive job as it won’t help much your defensive core, and even if it can deal with some very threatening breakers like Tapu Lele, there are often better choice for both a bulky Water type and a specially defensive wall.


Other bulky Water types that do a better job:

:toxapex:: Toxapex deals with way more breakers and completely walls Urshifu-R will being able to scout things like Dragapult way more efficiently with some SpD investments. It can also somehow handle Weavile. Sure, you can’t pivot with Teleport, but I feel that most of the time Slowking will be too much pressured to pivot efficiently and Toxapex also have useful utility moves like Toxic Spikes or Knock off.

:tapu fini:: Even if Tapu Fini can’t pivot out, it gives a decent answer to both Urshifu-R and Weavile and can beat Heatran in one vs one. Tapu Fini also has way more versatile, having several efficient sets, and thus being harder to predict. It can be a great wincon with Calm Mind or bring Speed Control with a Scarf set, things that Slowking can’t do.

Even Slowbro or Gastrodon seems to be better picks as they will be able to deal with a bit more threats and I don’t think that Slowking should be higher than these Pokemon on the VR.


So yeah, basically, even if Slowking has good tools, its defensive utility has felt down to a point where it can’t check most of the metagame big threats and it became really hard to justify Slowking over another Bulky Water type on balance teams. Sure, it’s still threatening against stall teams if you pair it with good breakers, but stall teams ain’t even common in this metagame.
 
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Haven't done VR noms in a while, so enjoy. Last post was only rises, so im going to be more pessimistic this time. Hope you enjoy anyways.

Rises

Blaziken (B-) to B: Blaziken is still an inconsistent option, but its currently decently better than it was before. It abuses metagame trends to carve a niche for itself as an offensive breaker, and put in can work, depending on what pokemon you need the slot it fits on to pressure. It has favorable matchups against many pokemon rising in usage, with Buzzwole, Scizor, Weavile, Ferrothorn, Melmetal, and Tapu Bulu coming to mind. It also does well against Ninetales-Alola+Arctozolt to some degree. It also appreciates Dragapult becoming worse, as Dragapult was one of the best offensive stopgaps against Blaziken, and Slowking falling off a cliff in favor of Slowking-Galar is also great, since Slowking was always annoying to break considering Blazikens 4 Move Slot Syndrome. All of this might make it seems like its worthy of B+ or higher, but it still is heavily inconsistent, due to having the aforementioned 4MSS as well as getting worn down in the blink of an eye. Tapu Finis excellence isn't appreciated either.

Scizor (A-) to A: On the other hand, Scizor is the opposite of inconsistent. Scizor provides its services as a great pivot with its Stab U-Turns, which allows its offensive teammates to come in and force progress. Plus, its one of the premiere defensive answers to some of the scariest offensive pokemon in this metagame, such as Tapu Lele, Kyurem, and Weavile, and Tapu Bulu. It not only comes in these pokemon, but it can force them out for the most part as well, due to to its solid offensive thanks to its naturally high attack stat, even if it doesn't have investment. This attack stat also allows it to potentially double as a late-game cleaner, depending on the matchup. It also has one more absolutely huge upside over other common defensive glues such as Lando-T and Tapu Fini: recovery. Roost means it doesn't have to rely on Leftovers or Wish support in order to more consistently come in on the pokemon it's supposed to check. It can even serve as a Swords Dance sweeper rather than a U-Turn pivot on hyper-offense teams, which it is also solid at.


+
Arctozolt+Ninetales-Alola (C/C+) to A-/B+: Lumping these 2 together since they should rise for the same reason: Hail as an archetype is ridiculously good. Many of the common defensive structures that have been ever so prevalent absolutely crumble to Hail, and a lot of tournament games have just been people bringing Hail and winning on team preview. Hails strength as a core comes from being able to absolutely maul balances and bulky offenses that cant keep up with its pace, granted that the Hail user makes a few smart predictions. Ive gone on enough about why Hail is so good, time to talk about the individual merits of each of these mons. Arcotozolt has Stab BoltBeam, end of discussion. Seriously though, its coverage is ridiculously potent, and it allows it to hit a ton of OU staples for super effective damage, and what it doesnt hit for SE usually takes a ridiculous amount from Bolt Beak or Blizzard anyways. Not to mention that it has Low Kick for fighting coverage, and can set up a Substitute to ensure that it gets the Bolt Beak damage multiplier, even if hail isn't up and its not going first with Slush Rush. Unlike Arctozolt, Ninetales-Alola can even be ran on non Hail teams. While it is probably best on hail, other team compositions appreciate the excellent utility that Aurora Veil provides, as it allows you to generate what is effectively free setup turns for your pokemon, and its other excellent utility in the form of Encore and Hypnosis makes it a valuable addition to whatever team it ends up on. It can even hit decently hard due to a solid special attack stat.


Melmetal (A) to A+: Words cannot express how much I absolute love spamming this pokemon. A rise for this mon is long overdue. Melmetal is simply an amazing pick in current SS OU. The main reason it's so good is versatility. Choice Band, Assault Vest, Leftovers Toxic Protect, and Protective Pads Thunder Wave are all very solid against what is popular in OU. Even Substitute Acid Armor has potential and probably deserves experimentation. Choice Band Double Iron Bash is vomit-inducingly strong, and can absolute destroy various offenses. Its not reliant on spamming Double Iron Bash either, its has solid coverage in the form of Earthquake, Superpower, Ice Punch, and Thunder Punch. Due to its sheer strength it can pick the coverage it wants without necessarily getting walled by the opponents defensive core, allowing it to avoid the curse that is 4 Move Slot Syndrome. The Protect Leftovers & Protective Pads Thunder Wave sets are both extremely annoying for bulkier teams, as they wear down the opposition over time, while being hard to wear down themselves, thanks to passive recovery/being immune to contact punishing. It also deserves a promotion due to Trick Room usage as a more consistent archetype, and Melmetal is a staple on Trick Room teams. However, unlike other common pokemon on Trick Room, such as Marowak-Alola, Crawdaunt, and Hatterene, it doesn't depend on Trick Room to be effective. This means that when put on these teams, it is less linear and not reliant on Trick Room being up.

Drops

Swampert (B) to B-: For the sake of continuity, let's start the drops section with a Hoenn starter as well. Swampert is such a mediocre pokemon in SS OU. It has solid utility in the form of Stealth Rock, Flip Turn, Toxic, and Yawn, but there are other pokemon who do its job much better, namely the best pokemon in OU, Landorus-T, as well as Garchomp, who is no slouch either. Defensive Landorus-Therian is able to blanket check half the tier, provide a ground immunity, Knock Off support, as well as a solid offensive presence, even without investment, all of which Swampert is unable to do. Garchomp can effectively run Stealth Rock on its offensive sets, and be a potent cleaner with scale shot, or break huge holes for other teammates to run rampant. Either that or it can run the infamous TankChomp set, and punish all the contact flying around in the tier, and effectively spread massive amounts of chip damage though Rough Skin, Rocky Helmet, Stealth Rock, and Toxic. In comparison, Swamperts upsides are relatively tame, and it gets worn down even quicker than these two. Its main niche over these two is Yawn+ slow pivoting, which while enough to make it somewhat viable, and something to consider adding on to certain teams, doesn't seem effective enough for Swampert to remain B tier.

Slowking (A+) to A-/B+: Slowking has come far from the days it was considered S tier. The metagame has adapted ridiculously well to it, and it gets worn down through toxic and hazards (once its Heavy Duty Boots are knocked off) way too hard in order to consistently come in the pokemon you need it to so on. The only prominent threat it really checks right now is Tapu Lele. As of right now, i dont see it as much better, if better at all, than Slowbro. The only reason i dont want it dropped further is how useful FuturePort can still be for a lot of teams. Slowking-Galar being excellent doesnt help either. Gomis Post, if you want a longer read about why this mon should drop.

Dragapult (S) to A+: Probably my hottest take. Don't misinterpret this as me thinking Dragapult is bad in any fashion, that's pretty much objectively wrong, this thing is amazing. However, so is every pokemon in A+ (besides Slowking lol). My problem with Dragapult being in S tier is that it isn't the slappable offensive presence it used to be. Specs Dragapult needs team support to not crumble to Swords Dance Weavile, who can easily come in and start killing things left and right on a Shadow Ball or after Dragapult has launched a Draco Meteor. Hex sets, which I personally think are the best sets as of right now, since they don't suffer the Weavile problem to the same degree, still can be annoying to use, as they often don't push the bill fast enough against common offenses, and can be a wet noodle if the target is not statused. Damage in general is a huge problem for Dragapult: it feels like it needs Choice Specs or Status Infliction to not do irrelevent damage that just gets shrugged off by all the Regenerator spam in the tier. Again, the main problem is Weavile, who singlehandedly makes Dragapults Shadow Balls infinitely less spammable than before, but it's not like Dragapult doesn't have other Problems. Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Specially Defensive Landorus-T, and hail teams all are rising in usage, and all significantly annoy it. Like I said before, still an excellent pokemon, but not S tier excellent.


Blissey (A-) to B+: Blissey suffers the Slowking problem: it's a special wall that can't check special attackers. Looking down the viability rankings, lets see all the special attackers that do/can beat it in some way: Dragapult U-Turns on it for free momentum, Heatran beats it 1v1 with Magma Storm+Toxic+Taunt, Kyurem does too much with Choice Specs Focus Blast, Tapu Fini Tricks it or beats it 1v1 with Whirlpool+Natures Madness+Taunt, Tapu Koko Volt Switches/U-Turns on it for free momentum, Tapu Lele Tricks/Psyshocks it, Volcorona Safeguards and sets up on it, Magnezone Volt Switches on it for free momentum, as do Zapdos and Rotom-Wash, and Blacephalon also Tricks it. That is way too many pokemon for it to be a competent blanket check to special attackers. It's problem delves from the fact that it's Trick bait, as well as losing to basically every physical attacker, since it can't run Eviolite like Chansey.

Nominations I agree with:
to A+
to A
to A-
to B-
to A-
to A-
to B
,
,
,
,
, to B-
to B
to UR
to UR
to UR
to UR
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Haven't made a post here in a while. Guess a lot of stuff has been happening. Wanna make a few noms of my own since somehow this gen hasn't gotten on my nerves after a week of playing


I wanna start off with a controversial one, the duo of :Arctozolt: and :Ninetales-Alola:. I tried using the duo and it is really strong. Arctozolt can sometimes just drop things left and right. I'm not sure if others have nominated it to be as high as the A ranks if I'm not mistaken but honestly, I don't think it should be ranked anywhere above B+, yet. At the moment, these two are still a trend that's dominant and people are still figuring out how to deal with it. In time, there will be some sort of answer to these guys which will be on a lot of teams. As such, I do not think that if mons are just taking off in a new trend should be ranked higher than B+. I think that there should be some time given before putting them that high. I'm not saying that hail is bad. That would be stupid but still, trends. It should go thru the test of time before being ranked highly

:Dragapult: to S-. It's still a great pokemon and it's still almost like having a built in choice scarf but it's nowhere near where it was months ago where a lot of people wanted to get rid of this thing. Pult's lack of firepower can sometimes be crippling without the spdef drops but I think it is still above the A+ mons just because of that natural speed

:Magnezone: to the B ranks. I've said this before and I'll say it again, something this incredibly one dimensional should not be in the A ranks. I made this nom before but I can't exactly remember if the vr has been updated since then but might as well be safe

:Zeraora: to A rank. This one is another controversial one but I personally don't think that Zeraora is on the same level of utility as Clef or Corvi. It's inability to do anything other than knocking off ground types is far too crippling if you ask me. Yes, that can be taken advantage of but that would require some tough predictions and it can carry toxic but being poisoned isn't exactly the end of the world. It's still a great pokemon but I just don't think it is on that level with such a crippling weakness

Finally, I wanna nom :Garchomp: to S or S- rank. This might seem weird considering Weavile is one of the strongest mons in the game but lately, I've been having success of messing with not just Weavile but other ice types or stuff with ice moves who think they have a free kill. Here are some replays where when they thought they had free kills, Garchomp just straight up messed with them



A few weeks ago, Garchomp was actually nominated to drop to A rank. There were discussions back and forth but at the time, I really couldn't blame them. Weavile and its precious boots just feasts on it. However, Fini gained a lot of attention some time after that and since I no longer needed Garchomp to switch into Heatran, I experimented with good ol blueberry. Garchomp isn't that difficult to check but then again, none of the ou mons truly are. However, unlike other pokemon, Chomp is capable of invalidating just about every single one of its own checks as seen in those replays with the help of yache berry. A lot of mons that are naturally faster thatn Chomp such as Dragapult and Koko loses to it if it boosts its speed. Weavile is an exception thanks to ice shard but with yache berry, you invalidate that as well. Weavile isn't the only victim. As seen in one of the replays, even Buzzwole loses its ability to check Garchomp with blueberry

Before, Chomp was a pokemon that was a wall breaker but had the ability to sweep. However, these days, I think Garchomp's wall breaking days are behind it and I've been using it as a dedicated setup sweeper similar to Volcarona. The reason I say this is with all the crazy wall breakers like Lele or Blacephalon running around with their specs set, setup wall breakers can sometimes end up just giving free switches. As a sweeper however, Garchomp does a very good job because it has good bulk

With all this said, the only pokemon that can truly counter Garchomp without dying to two hits would be unaware Clef and even that would have to click soft boiled otherwise the third earthquake kills it. Basically, Garchomp's ability to beat just about every single one of its checks on its own is a good reason for it to be higher than A+. Now, I am not saying that a mon needs to be able to do just that for it to be good, that would be stupid, but just having that option when push comes to shove is really valuable especially for an offensive pokemon. You only truly lose to Rillaboom and even that guy needs Chomp to use scale shot or Rillaboom itself loses

Some stuff I agree with

Rises

:Ferrothorn: :Tapu Fini: :Weavile: :Tornadus-Therian: :Blacephalon: :Tapu Lele:

Drops

:Tyranitar: :Mandibuzz: :Bisharp: :Blissey:

:Slowking: I'm gonna special mention this one because I never thought this was that good to begin with in the first place. I always thought it was overrated as hell and now, it's a very rare sight. Just one of the reasons why I think when new stuff are being used, they should be given time to settle before reranking them



PS

Is there a schedule for when the vr gets updated or is it just at random times after it is discussed?
 
:Magnezone: to the B ranks. I've said this before and I'll say it again, something this incredibly one dimensional should not be in the A ranks. I made this nom before but I can't exactly remember if the vr has been updated since then but might as well be safe

:Zeraora: to A rank. This one is another controversial one but I personally don't think that Zeraora is on the same level of utility as Clef or Corvi. It's inability to do anything other than knocking off ground types is far too crippling if you ask me. Yes, that can be taken advantage of but that would require some tough predictions and it can carry toxic but being poisoned isn't exactly the end of the world. It's still a great pokemon but I just don't think it is on that level with such a crippling weakness
Hard disagree. Magnezone is limited and one dimensional in it's role of trapping steel types, but it is effective enough at that role that it is extremely valuable on various offenses. Plus it doesnt only remove steels; it can abuse the fact that many of them cant touch to get a substitute iron defense off and potentially sweep. Also, it is a decent breaker thanks to how hard it hits. Magnezone feels fine where it is: too limited to move up, but too effective to move down.

Zeraora I've made an entire post about, so I'll keep this short. I frankly don't understand what you mean by inability to do anything. Zeraora is an excellent form of speed control that wears down its checks through knock off/toxic, and serves as an excellent late game cleaner through bulk up. Plus, toxic very well can be "the end of the world" against certain mons who are put a timer and become absolutely horrible at checking teammates like swords dance garchomp. Plus it has the speed that you yourself value enough that you think Dragapult should be above A+ tier because of it, but it doesn't just tie with dragapult, it outspeeds it.
 
+
Just another voice in the choir at this point, but these two deserve a significant rise. I believe Hail is the best weather in the current metagame, and probably just the best hyper offensive structure in general. Arctozolt takes advantage of STAB BoltBeam and decimates any team that hasn't specifically thought about this match up in the builder. When I start thinking of A rank Pokemon I think of either incredible glue mons or offensive mons you have to take a second to individually check and see if your team holds up against them in the builder, as opposed to just blanket checking them with some generic fat mons. Arctozolt has started to do this, it's only anecdotal but I've definitely been seeing more SpDef Swampert on the ladder (one of the better answers to Arctozolt if it is not running Freeze Dry) and I know it is because people fear Arctozolt.

Another thing worth mentioning is the current diversity these two, more specifically Ninetales, create in the builder. Rain and Sand which have been the superior weather archetypes for the last few generations always seemed to stick to a pretty standard shell. Every few months some innovation would occur but it would quickly become common place. However, Hail teams are so different from game to game it becomes a lot harder to game plan for them, since you wont be able to regularly preserve certain mons for specific match ups since you could play 3 games and each team will use a completely different method to wear down your answers to Arctozolt. This leading to an uptick in Arctozolt consistency.

These two are a potent pair and similarly to how Pelipper has been ranked in the past almost solely based on the viability of rain in general, I believe these two should get a rise based on the success of Hail teams overall.
 

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