Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [See Post #1720 on Page 69]

Katy

Banned deucer.
:Tapu lele: To A+

This monstrosity of a Psychic-type is crazy right now and with Focus Blast it has the tools to break past steels and a Choice Specs boosted Psychic hits everything pretty hard anyway. Future Sight can also play a big role on Choice Scarf sets allowing the same what the Slowtriplets do, making process in the game. Tapu Lele has also access to Psyshock which means it isnt hard-walled by Galarian Slowking and Blissey, therefore it can break past them easily. Tapu Lele might look like a jaggernaut in first place but all what it needs to do it pulls off very well. I think even Calm Mind sets can allow easy breaking and tie'ing with Kyurem and other base 95s is very valuable to scare them out eventually.

Some might think with all the steels roaming around Tapu Lele has a hard time, but actually with enough support and its own tools it has access to it finds itself a very easy opportunity to take advantage of these, steels and ice Pokemon are easily covered with 1 slot which is Focus Blast anyway, which means those Pokemon have a hard time pivoting around Tapu Lele, and Focus Blast also heavily damages neutral targets, which are common in the current metagame and only gets stopped by Fairy- and Flying-types. Therefore Tapu Lele should rise a rank, as its arsenal of hard-hitting moves is really good in the current metagame.

:jirachi: To B

Let's be honest this Pokemon is very underrated, I've tried this on ladder with a Power Herb + Meteor Beam set and its a really good set. Meteor Beam, Stab and coverage (prolly Aura Sphere / Thunderbolt) is really good and hits most of the metagame for neutral damage. It also is a great tool against the aforementioned Psychic-type in Tapu Lele, as it can take it hits pretty well and Stealth Rock sets with SpDef investment achieves that. Being able to U-turn out of unfavorable MUs is also great and Wish gives it longevity, means it is a long-lasting Stealth Rocker. Here is the set, which I have used on ladder:

Jirachi @ Power Herb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Psychic / Flash Cannon
- Aura Sphere / Thunderbolt
- Substitute / Calm Mind

Its pretty customizable depending on the needs of your team and with teammates like Gengar, Gapdos, and Nihilego it can be a dangerous threat. You can also pair it up with a hazard stacking core like Landorus-T + Ferrothorn, and Knock Off users Like Ferrothorn and Weavile, in which Jirachi is able to shredd' through teams in the lategame. AND....speaking of the devil borb itself....

:zapdos galar: To A-

This Pokemon takes advantage of so many Pokemon in the moment, Pokemon like Landorus-T, Corviknight with Defog and its not easily counterable with 2 hard-hitting STAB moves in Brave Bird and Close Combat. U-turn is nice af tool to allow it to get out of unfavorable MUs. You can't deny that Gapdos is one of the best wallbreakers right now. Sure it might get worn down easily, but all it needs is clicking moves, especially on hazard stack teams it can perform its role to the best. Gapdos can also run fun stuff like Bulk Up sets with stuff like Drill Peck to allow it to be long-lasting Pokemon. Try it out, I've tried it on the ladder and its pretty fun and a legit set. But in overall this devil borb should rise a rank, as with finding itself on hazard stack teams it can take advantages well enough from hazard removal options like Defog Corviknight.

:Blacephalon: and :gengar: Rise 1 subrank

Spooky they are and great they are! Both should rise a subrank for various of reasons, good Speed tier, great dual STAB moves, ability to shut down Blissey with Trick and with Blacephalon having Speed Boost and Gengar having great coverage and Nasty Plot I see these two Pokemon in a good place at the moment, outpacing many Base 100s is pretty valuable right now, these Pokemon include Victini as well as Volcarona, which are valuable targets.

:tapu Fini: stay where its at.

Baloor Made a great post about Tapu Fini, but I think it should stay where it is at right now. It doesn't serve as a S- or S rank Pokemon. Its still great however and helping against Shifu, Weavile, and Heatran in one slot is pretty valuable but it can get wornd down too easily to be a long-lasting check to all of these Pokemon and oftentimes they find themselves on the same team, meaning Tapu Fini can get overwhelmed pretty easily as Weavile + Heatran can easily overwhelm this shared check. And outside of Draining Kiss it has no sustainable recovery option, unless you use Leftovers, but Weavile can remove it in the progress meaning Tapu Fini gets hindered in a constant switch-in scenario. Its still a great Pokemon but not S- material.


:kartana: and :melmetal: To A+

These two Steel-type dominate the SSOU metagame at the moment and with a variety of vaiable sets and great coverage options both these Steel-types can easily turn into dangerous threats in the current metagame. With Corviknight usage slowing down recently both these steels have one less wall to be afraid off and with Sacred Sword for the former and Superpower for the latter they can still go past Ferrothorn relatively easily. Kartanas Choice Band and Melmetals Assault Vest set are great in general and with Kartana a Swords Dance set can function pretty well as a lategame cleaner and melmetal can still make use of Protect + Leftover sets. I think both of these steels deserve a rise to A+ .

This was it from me and hope y'all have a wonderful day. :blobwizard:
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Wanna make a few noms of my own

I'll start with the rises

:tyranitar: :blacephalon: to A-

I think choice band Tyranitar is really strong. It is the one pokemon in the entire game that makes Landorus regret switching in with a neutral hit and it has a rather colorful movepool to choose from to deal with everything else. It's definitely better than everything else in B+ by a slight margin

Really, Blacephalon in B+ is an insult. What switches into this thing that doesn't get mauled? In my experience, the best way to stave it off is to have your spdef pokemon not get two shotted by its specs shadow ball and try to deny it opportunities to attack. That is not a reliable way to deal with this at all and unless it's a spdef Heatran, it even has a strong nuke in overheat to melt Landorus

:zapdos: :zapdos-galar: to A-

With Tornadus being very annoying, what is the one pokemon that makes it regret spamming u turn or knock off? That's right, Zapdos. A paralyzed Tornadus is near dead weight. Its galarian form is also rising and it is in the same boat as Tornadus against its regular form. It's not just the birds but threatening paralysis on contact moves can be really annoying and can make one vulnerable. Zapdos also shares Tornadus' ability to spam u turn and unlike Torn, Zap can't be paralyzed by itself. There are probably some other sets too but I think it's definitely better than the stuff in B+

The same goes for galarian Zapdos. Taking advantage of Landorus is always fun and this thing can easily prey upon the stuff in the tier while making one think twice about blowing away hazards. Everybody already knows what this thing does anyway

to A+

After a few weeks, I think I finally understood why Garchomp dropped. It's because fairies are desperate to block its scale shots. While Garchomp can very easily use roseli berry and dispose of those fairies, the point remains that it hasn't boosted its speed and is probably not sweeping, unless the other guy screws up and gives it the chance. I do think this is the most threatening pokemon and in nearly every single battle it participates in, it always does something meaningful but that meaningful is not sweeping, which I think is the reason why it dropped. Altho hard switching in a Tapu into Garchomp's teeth is not a good idea, if you don't risk blocking the scale shot, chances are your team probably can't deal with a boosted Garchomp and really, on the ladder, I run into a lot of teams that are so vulnerable to scale shot that they just risk dying to block it. Basically, it's when you do something else instead of what you're getting paid for and your boss is pissed at you

However, I'm nomming Garchomp up for an entirely different reason, support sets. While scale shot is still very strong, the desperation to block it just sometimes makes it pointless so I've been using this thing as a stealth rocker lately and it does very well. Offensive stealth rock just beats all forms of hazard removal while support stealth rock only loses to defog Fini, which is very rare and Garchomp obvously destroys the rare spinners. And since galarian Zapdos is rising, what better way to make it regret clicking brave bird than rocky helmet Chomp. Here are the sets I use and someone should try it out. It's really good


Garchomp @ Hard Stone
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 44 HP / 184 SpA / 252 SpD / 28 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Toxic
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Drops

:weavile: to A

I could be missing a few things here so take this with a grain of salt. I don't think it is doing too hot right now. All its issues finally caught up with it. Double steel cores grief it an every turn and Toxapex is an even bigger grief to it. You could go choice band but that is very heavy prediction reliant and if your prediction is off, stealth rock tears it apart. I've haven't even run into this thing in a week and I've played like four or five games a day

:zeraora: to A-

Zeraora's natural speed isn't too much of an asset afik. With scarfers like Lele and Kartana being better speed control, I don't think the ability to outspeed Dragapult is that high of a demand. This thing can't even pivot around for as long as the omnipresent Lando is alive and can only knock off its item or poison it. Giving Lando a free u turn isn't really the best of ideas. Zera also face very stiff competition from Koko who can spam u turn all day and not care about anything that isn't a rocky helmet Garchomp or Ferrothorn

:arctozolt: :hydreigon: to B+

No, I'm not saying Arctozolt is a bad pokemon. I'm simply nomming it to B+ because it is far too specific for an A tier imo. It requires hail and without hail, this thing loses to just about every single offensive mon in the tier. It's still a really good mon but it requires a specific support to use

I'm not even sure why Hydreigon is still in A-. It's just the worst out of all the ones inhabiting it and it even dropped to uu. While usage doesn't = viability afik, I don't see it being that good considering all the crazy fairies running around. It can't even reliable use flash cannon as two of the three common fairies are neutral to it. Really, gamefreak should give this sludge bomb or something

:slowking: to B

Would this really need an explanation? Everyone already nommed this to drop so I won't bother

:excadrill: to B-

Yeah, everyone also knows that this mon sucks. Metal birbs, Landorus, Slowbro, blah blah blah

Stuff I agree on

:melmetal: :kartana: :tapu lele: to
A+

:corviknight: to A

:jirachi: :blaziken: :mew: to B

:dracozolt: to C+
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Again when I made this Nom I 100% think that Exca should also go C+ alongside Zolt. I think it is actually worse than Zolt in the current meta and that both rely on each other so much that they shouldn't be separated by tier.
Meh, that's debatable. The thing with Excadrill is that it becomes a legit threat once metal birbs go down. Lando goes spdef these days so it can't as easily tank Drill's iron heads. Unlike Zolt, Excadrill doesn't necessarily need sand since it has rapid spin. It's not ideal but if really needed, it can simply spin and outspeed much and it has a handy steel typing. You're still not taking any hits but in a pinch, it can be useful. Urshifu is a bit of a pain but it's not really the hardest thing in the world to handle. Excadrill doesn't even necessarily need Dracozolt since any wall breaker that can get rid of metal birds will do and there are a lot of them

Dracozolt on the other hand, one hundred percent needs sand. Without sand, this thing is just another Arctozolt, loses to every offensive mon in the tier. Landorus would have to screw up pretty badly if it loses to Dracozolt. Zolt is also completely helpless against Hippowdon unless it's using some random choice band outrage or something
 
Meh, that's debatable. The thing with Excadrill is that it becomes a legit threat once metal birbs go down. Lando goes spdef these days so it can't as easily tank Drill's iron heads. Unlike Zolt, Excadrill doesn't necessarily need sand since it has rapid spin. It's not ideal but if really needed, it can simply spin and outspeed much and it has a handy steel typing. You're still not taking any hits but in a pinch, it can be useful. Urshifu is a bit of a pain but it's not really the hardest thing in the world to handle. Excadrill doesn't even necessarily need Dracozolt since any wall breaker that can get rid of metal birds will do and there are a lot of them

Dracozolt on the other hand, one hundred percent needs sand. Without sand, this thing is just another Arctozolt, loses to every offensive mon in the tier. Landorus would have to screw up pretty badly if it loses to Dracozolt. Zolt is also completely helpless against Hippowdon unless it's using some random choice band outrage or something
Let's face it if you're using sand you're using both of them as while Exca does have a very small niche as a rapid spinner, it's not enough to justify it outside of Sand 98% of the time.

Lando running SPD hurts Zolt definitely but it's still 3hko'd by Draco Meteor after SR anyways and it's not like Drill is really beating Lando either.

However let's go through the rankings above Both of them and see who matches up better against the meta.

Lando: Both lose to Lando though Drill is better against SPD while Zolt beats any non SPD Lando-T. I'll give the edge to Drill on this one slightly as SPD is the most common Lando.

Heatran: Both Shit on him.

Dragapult: See Above

Corv: Zolt no doubt.

Ferro: Zolt 100% due to Fire Blast and Exca losing to Body press even at +2

Kyurem: Neither can switch in on EP but Drill takes it due to being able to take on ice beam on the switch and outspeed/ko in sand.

Slowking-G: Both Ohko it.

Fini: Neither can switch in but Zolt KO's while Exca has to be +2.

Koko: Drill, though only because he can switch in. Otherwise E-terrain +Eq kill would put it in Zolts favor.

Tornadus: Zolt, though Exca can ko with +2 Rock Slide

Weavile: Drill

Clefable: Drill

Garchomp: Neither can switch in but Zolt can Ohko.

Kartana: Zolt Ko's with Fire Blast and can take any hit from it while Drill loses.

Zone: Both Beat it. Though I give the edge to Zolt as it doesn't lose to Iron Defense BP thanks to FB.

Melmetal: Both Lose to different sets and any Melmetal with EQ. Slight edge to Drill due to being able to ohko at 2.

Scizor: Both Beat it badly though edge to Zolt as it can beat it unboosted.

Lele: Drill, it can switch in while Zolt can not, Both Beat it though.

Urshifu: Zolt 100% aqua jet destroys Drill and Zolt can actually switch in on this thing.

Zeraora: Both Beat it in sand though Zolt does better out of Sand.

Arctozolt, Both lose to it in sand and beat it out of it.

Blissey: Both Beat it.

Buzzwole: Zolt beats it with Fire Blast while exca loses.

Ninetails alola: Drill easy win.

Victini: Zolt, it can switch in and ohko while Exca can ohko but not switch in.

Hydreigon: Both Beat in sand and lose otherwise. Though Zolt has to hope it's not scared while Exca has to be +2.

Volcarona: Drill due to outspeeding in sand ohkoing with Rock Slide while mot having to worry about Burn.

And that's the S through A-Ranks. Though the most important match-ups by far for sand is Urshifu and Rilla (Who's B+). As your setter will already be weak to them and Drill instantly loses to both while Zolt can beat both. Meaning you're not down 6-4 on team preview.

I personally think Zolt is slightly better however. My original point was that both use each other and that the difference in strengths between them is so slight that they should be in the same tier without a doubt.

Now I think both should be C+ but if not that then Both should be B- however they should definitely not be a tier apart.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Let's face it if you're using sand you're using both of them as while Exca does have a very small niche as a rapid spinner, it's not enough to justify it outside of Sand 98% of the time.

Lando running SPD hurts Zolt definitely but it's still 3hko'd by Draco Meteor after SR anyways and it's not like Drill is really beating Lando either.

However let's go through the rankings above Both of them and see who matches up better against the meta.

Lando: Both lose to Lando though Drill is better against SPD while Zolt beats any non SPD Lando-T. I'll give the edge to Drill on this one slightly as SPD is the most common Lando.

Heatran: Both Shit on him.

Dragapult: See Above

Corv: Zolt no doubt.

Ferro: Zolt 100% due to Fire Blast and Exca losing to Body press even at +2

Kyurem: Neither can switch in on EP but Drill takes it due to being able to take on ice beam on the switch and outspeed/ko in sand.

Slowking-G: Both Ohko it.

Fini: Neither can switch in but Zolt KO's while Exca has to be +2.

Koko: Drill, though only because he can switch in. Otherwise E-terrain +Eq kill would put it in Zolts favor.

Tornadus: Zolt, though Exca can ko with +2 Rock Slide

Weavile: Drill

Clefable: Drill

Garchomp: Neither can switch in but Zolt can Ohko.

Kartana: Zolt Ko's with Fire Blast and can take any hit from it while Drill loses.

Zone: Both Beat it. Though I give the edge to Zolt as it doesn't lose to Iron Defense BP thanks to FB.

Melmetal: Both Lose to different sets and any Melmetal with EQ. Slight edge to Drill due to being able to ohko at 2.

Scizor: Both Beat it badly though edge to Zolt as it can beat it unboosted.

Lele: Drill, it can switch in while Zolt can not, Both Beat it though.

Urshifu: Zolt 100% aqua jet destroys Drill and Zolt can actually switch in on this thing.

Zeraora: Both Beat it in sand though Zolt does better out of Sand.

Arctozolt, Both lose to it in sand and beat it out of it.

Blissey: Both Beat it.

Buzzwole: Zolt beats it with Fire Blast while exca loses.

Ninetails alola: Drill easy win.

Victini: Zolt, it can switch in and ohko while Exca can ohko but not switch in.

Hydreigon: Both Beat in sand and lose otherwise. Though Zolt has to hope it's not scared while Exca has to be +2.

Volcarona: Drill due to outspeeding in sand ohkoing with Rock Slide while mot having to worry about Burn.

And that's the S through A-Ranks. Though the most important match-ups by far for sand is Urshifu and Rilla (Who's B+). As your setter will already be weak to them and Drill instantly loses to both while Zolt can beat both. Meaning you're not down 6-4 on team preview.

I personally think Zolt is slightly better however. My original point was that both use each other and that the difference in strengths between them is so slight that they should be in the same tier without a doubt.

Now I think both should be C+ but if not that then Both should be B- however they should definitely not be a tier apart.
It's not just about matchups though. Dracozolt uses all out attacking sets with life orb or some sub fire spin with lefties. With life orb sets, you do beat a lot of the metagame but in practice, it is heavy prediction reliant. Combined with rocks, Zolt wears itself down incredibly fast to the point where it can't even take a grassy glide or aqua jet, or if it can, whatever attack it fires off next will probably kill it due to life orb. It's not even that reliable of a sand sweeper since it relies too much on sand to be a threat. Sub lefties may be a different story but I haven't run into that thing yet but I would assume Landorus still griefs it at every turn

Excadrill is different. It's not supposed to be a wall breaker. It's supposed to be the thing you save for last and cleanup and it doesn't necessarily need Dracozolt to support it. You can even use something like Tyranitar + Blacephalon + Excadrill and that would already be a good enough core and thanks to rapid spin, you don't necessarily need smooth rock on your setter. Drill is not as prediction reliant as Zolt and it doesn't need life orb. Excadrill is much like Garchomp in that regard, only ten times worse as Drill is restricted to sand while Chomp fits on literally any team that needs a sweeper. Both don't care who their wall breaking teammate is as long as it gets rid of their hated enemies
 
It's not just about matchups though. Dracozolt uses all out attacking sets with life orb or some sub fire spin with lefties. With life orb sets, you do beat a lot of the metagame but in practice, it is heavy prediction reliant. Combined with rocks, Zolt wears itself down incredibly fast to the point where it can't even take a grassy glide or aqua jet, or if it can, whatever attack it fires off next will probably kill it due to life orb. It's not even that reliable of a sand sweeper since it relies too much on sand to be a threat. Sub lefties may be a different story but I haven't run into that thing yet but I would assume Landorus still griefs it at every turn

Excadrill is different. It's not supposed to be a wall breaker. It's supposed to be the thing you save for last and cleanup and it doesn't necessarily need Dracozolt to support it. You can even use something like Tyranitar + Blacephalon + Excadrill and that would already be a good enough core and thanks to rapid spin, you don't necessarily need smooth rock on your setter. Drill is not as prediction reliant as Zolt and it doesn't need life orb. Excadrill is much like Garchomp in that regard, only ten times worse as Drill is restricted to sand while Chomp fits on literally any team that needs a sweeper. Both don't care who their wall breaking teammate is as long as it gets rid of their hated enemies
I still don't think there different enough to justify a whole tier difference. They both are sand abusers, one is the best breaker in sand and the other is the best sweeper on Sand. Both have viable and decent roles but neither can really do much in the meta atm and they both deserve to be in the same tier due to being crucial parts of the same archetype and having a similar place in the meta.
 

Finchinator

You're so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Use this week to get any last nominations in, by the way. I plan on doing a slate after the tiering survey, which I plan on working on over the next few nights and getting out later this week. That means the next slate will be in 7-10 days if all goes according to plan.
 
–
and
galar
to A-: The discovery of the 3 Attacks Roost and the occasional Choice Specs have really brought Zapdos new life, as it's powerful, spammable Hurricanes hit a great majority of the tier for considerable damage, and it's access to Heat Wave further differences itself from Tapu Koko, it's main competition as an Electric-type offensive pivot. It also has a pretty good matchup against Urshifu-RS thanks to it's excellent 100 base speed, which also gives it the jump over Tapu Lele and Kyurem. On the other hand, Galarian Zapdos has skyrocketed in popularity due to the rise of slow, bulky cores such as Ferrothorn + Lando + Tapu Fini, as well as Double Steel cores, all of which struggle to switch in safely against Gapdos' Choice Band-boosted STABs. It's ability Defiant also gives it a powerful tool for the popular Spikestacking teams, as it punishes Defog attempts; this also gives it a spot on Hyper Offense teams, most notably Screens, where it can utilize a Bulk Up set to great effect.

–
to B or B+: In the recent weeks, we have seen Eleki resurface again, this time as a rapid spinner and speed control. Despise its inability to muscle past Grounds, the current meta is very friendly to it, as most teams only rely on Landorus-T as their only Ground, which makes it easy to chip down and KO for Eleki. Galarian Zapdos is its main partner in crime, as it can severely punish Landorus-T switchin in with a Defiant boost, while Eleki removes away the Rocks that chip down Gapdos and its teammates, as well as blowing past Toxapex, Slowbro and Clefable with a powerful Electro Ball.

–
to B: Jirachi has seen tournament success thanks to its Healing Wish + Stealth Rock set, giving powerful support for dangerous breakers like Galarian Zapdos. It also checks Tapu Lele pretty consistently, being able to force it out and grab momentum with U-Turn. However, the lack of reliable recovery, its vulnerability to Knock Off, and weakness to Ghost prevents it from rising further up.
–
to A: The current popularity of Garchomp, Urshifu and Melmetal, as well as being able to lure in Weavile with its Colbur Berry Body Press set, solidify Slowbro's place in the meta. Galarian Zapdos' rising in popularity is good news for Slowbro as well, as it can offer it excellent Future Sight support, as well as stomaching Close Combats from opposing Galarian Zapdos. Its rising usage, as well as its ability to adapt to the current meta gives Slowbro a solid place in A, in my opinion.
 

Finchinator

You're so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Regarding the relative viability of Steel types, I think the more common ones should be ranked as followed:
  • :Heatran: seems fine in S- as the most offensively threatening and defensively practical of the bunch
  • :Ferrothorn: should stick in A+ as a great option on bulky-offense and balance with Spikes, Leech Seed, and a unique defensive profile in a metagame filled with Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, and Arctozolt
  • :Corviknight: is probably best off dipping to A. It is still elite at what it does between Defog, Pressure, pivoting, and defensively minimizing Grounds, Grasses, etc., but it is possible to take advantage of and certain rockers and physical attackers can manhandle it, which makes it a far cry from the staple status of rival Defogger Landorus-T.
  • :Kartana: should remain A as it continues to be a disruptive force offensively. The main drawback is being a Steel type that provides minimal defensively and being a faster Pokemon that does not really constitute speed control in a metagame where you’re strapped for slots and covering many things as is. It’s hard to consistently build with and utilize Kartana because of this, but on the right team it shines.
  • :Magnezone: should also stay A in my eyes, but a dip to A- would not be out of the question. I like how consistent the Iron Defense sets are despite trapping being a more niche role overall and I like how strong the Specs set is standalone, too. It’s not going to work on every team of course, but Magnezone is more practical than it once was and I see this reflected in its viability
  • :Melmetal: is a clear A Pokemon as well in my eyes. It is very strong, can fulfill a couple of short term defensive roles depending on team construction, and there are few, if any, hard stops to it right now
  • :Scizor: should drop from A to A- or B+ probably. Offensive sets are nice on HO, but overall it feels like it accomplishes very little with the standard variants and mainly just sits around to check Kyurem, Tapu Lele, and CM non-Flame Clefable. This is a fine niche, but it’s entirely reactionary. It does not sweep with SD when using bulky sets, it is not a reliable Defog user, and it lacks the progress making prowess of other Steel types. I still like it in A- or B+ as offensive sets can be surprisingly strong and this is a unique defensive place, but no higher than that.
  • All of the B ranked and C ranked Steels are likely fine as is. You can argue for a slight rise for Jirachi or slight drop for Bisharp, but it’s really just slight differences in perception so I won’t expand on them much here.
 
clef to B+/B : the rise of double steel cores is bad news for clef and you don't like would not like if melm or heatran are freely switching in . The rise of glowking is probably the worst since it beats all clef sets except calm mind . Every offensive mon either two hit ko's or one hit ko whether it be urshifu,lele,kyurem,pault,kart,melm,arctozolt also it gives free setup opportunity mons like kart,fini,volc

ttar to A-: choice band is so hard to switch into it has a coverage moves for the ones that can take stone edge or crunch eg: fire punch for ferro. Lando is also not safely switch since most lando's are running spdef . Also spdef set is quite good since it is a good counter to the ghosts,heatran,volc,torn,glowking it can also switch into kyurem if it is not running focus miss also if you need to stay on the grounds it can destroy the grounds with ice beam since it lives all earthquakes from lando,chomp lando can only one hit ko ttar with 252 attack adamant it also lives all hits from lele unless specs modest focus miss
 
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Rises:
:slowbro: > A: Slowbro is one of the few mons that appreciate the rise of physical threats like Victini, Galarian Zapdos, and Melmetal. Considering it can also lure in Weavile with Colbur Berry and Body Press, and is somewhat of a soft check against Heatran, watch out for Toxic are useful things that teams want to cover, which Slowbro is able to cover. Futureport makes it a good choice for offensive teams as it enables dangerous wallbreakers to be deadlier and bring its teammates in safely. With the rising popularity of physical attackers and Slowbro being able to cover them and provide good support for the teams its in deserves a solid spot in A rank.

:zapdos: > A-: Offensive Zapdos is a cool set that has some defensive utility thanks to Static punishing U-Turn spam and is able to check Galarian Zapdos, Tornadus-T, and Kartana. Garchomp and Landorus-T are shaky answers to reliably check this Zapdos and its decent speed tier makes it quite threatening in pressuring teams that rely on them. Zapdos decent coverage, good offensive presence, and defensive utility make it stand out from the other stuff in B+ and should rise.

:regieleki: > wherever is more fitting: Who would've thought this was no longer trash. Its best friend Galarian Zapdos breaks past almost every "reliable" answer to Regieleki which just opens for Regieleki to spam Electric moves and be a pain to revenge kill with its insane speed tier. Rapid Spin makes it even harder to revenge kill and is a good asset in hazard stacks without removing its team's hazard compared to defog. Really annoying to deal with especially if your only way to handle it is just a Landorus-T.

Drops:

:slowking: > B: It is questionable to consider this compared to Galarian Slowking and while it does enjoy the usage of Urshifu-R going down and a desperate check to Tapu Lele and Heatran. Outside of that there's not much it can do when Galarian Slowking is able to cover a lot more handful of threats and its insane coverage makes it annoying to deal with against several. With an abundance of Physical attackers being used now with Slowbro benefits in the current state of the metagame also negatively affects it. Assault Vest Slowking with Dragon Tail is something that should definitely be explored more and something that saves it from dropping any lower.

:clefable: > A-: The state the meta is in right now does not favor Clefable at all. Double Steel cores are a pain for it and dislikes how Victini and Blacephalon take advantage of Clefable.When compared to a bulky Fairy-type it faces competition with Tapu Fini that is able to check things that Clefable cannot normally do at the expense of reliable recovery and amazing ability Magic Gaurd. While the utility of Clefable is something that cannot be contested its not something many consider for every team and seems more fitting to drop than staying on A rank.

Noms I agree with:
:blacephalon: > A-: Potent wallbreaker with little true answers, and for those that can switch in on it get melted by Overheat or crippled trick, needs decent amount of support to function properly the pay off is really good.

:zapdos-galar: > A-/A: Amazing wallbreaker that destroys the every so popular Double Steel cores and takes full advantage of Landorus-T, enable partners that enjoys the things it breaks past.

:scizor: > A-: This mon is not good and is useful in checking Kyurem and Tapu Lele in one spot, outside of HO its not going to be sweeping much, but do use the chad Metal Coat Scizor.

Noms I disagree with:
:tapu lele: >A+: Not much has really changed for Tapu Lele its an amazing Wallbreaker, speed control when using Choice Scarf, and a decent win condition with Calm Mind. All these good traits should push it to A+ well that's about it with the positive traits. Tapu Lele needs a lot of support to properly function accordingly and also be prediction reliant to make any progress especially with the ever so common Steel-types, as well as relying on Focus Blast in order to break past them. You offer little to little defensive utility outside of switching occasional Close Combats, while similar to Kyurem at least has some bulk and good in taking advantage of most Water-types. While Tapu Lele is seen as an incredible wallbreaker you gotta factor a lot more than just its wallbreaking in what defines something as A+. Now I'm not saying Tapu Lele is a bad mon with the proper support it is amazing, but calling it A+ material when you don't consider every other important trait in the current state of this metagame really shows that Tapu Lele has more flaws than positives which hold it back with no place it for it fitting in A+.

:kartana: > A+: Finchinator brought up all the good points in why Kartana should stay A rank, while I will admit it is an incredible threat, though a steel type that has very little defensive utility is not something a steel-type needs to be when steel-types are even more important in checking key threats than ever before.

:tapu fini: >S-: A good amount of people already discussed why this should not rise so I am not going to be adding more to it, though i would say it has gotten a tad bit worse for it lately. While Tapu Fini is still phenomenal, but the main niches of its upside is slightly going down with Slowbro and Toxapex being able to check a handful of things that Tapu Fini covers with reliable recovery, while Double-steel type cores are a good endurance in handling Weavile which you do not need to overly on Tapu Fini. If anything Tapu Fini in actuality is closer to dropping in all honesty, though its still a decent pick in offensive teams and an amazing wincon with Calm Mind and trapping set.
 
Now that SCL is over I'd like to give you guys my thoughts on some mons

Rises:
:Clefable: --> A+ I was a big clef hater in the past but I now think it's one of the best mons in the metagame again. Utility sets are great at staying alive and supporting your team/annoying your opponent, while its CM sets are probably the best setup sweepers in the tier right now.

:Zapdos-Galar: --> A- Pretty obvious rise right now, although I don't think it should rise to A because it can be pretty inconsistent in some matchups.

:Slowbro: --> A+ Best or 2nd best water in the tier right now. There's a lot of physical attackers in the tier that it checks and futureport is as scary as ever.

:Rotom-Wash: --> A- Rotom-w is one of my favorite mons to use atm as it completely destroys typical lando-t bulky offense type teams. It's also a nuisance when paired with heavy hitters like melmetal or gzappy as common volt switchins get throttled by them.

:Zapdos: --> A- Rising threat right now partly as a response to gzappy and also partly bc people are realizing how hard the offensive sets are to switch into while still providing defensive utility.

:Mew: --> B+ Demon mew is broken

:Nihilego: --> B- I'm not too high on this mon but it's been seeing a lot of usage lately and should definitely rise.

:Regieleki: --> B- Has a solid niche in the meta by forcing in lando-t and letting your heavy-hitters take advantage of it.

:Celesteela: --> C+ Meteor beam is a great set on HO that can get wins w/ flinches while giving HO a crucial defensive typing.
 
Rises:
:terrakion: > B/B+: This as a breaker is border line great which i think is needed to be reflected in the VR more as it clearly takes advantages of the meta trends as of now such as Bulky Water+Landorus. Its only consistant check is mrswole himself but I only believe it will make B+ max since it is rather inconsistent due to Stone Edge being a literal meme, actual SD opportunity is rather hard and a multitude of soft checks can beat Terrakion without boosts. Despite this, its potential should not be going unnoticed

Im going to be focusing on SD and the less known but effective Choice Band set.
Standard SD
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 265-313 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.7 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 441-519 (105 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 259-305 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Choice Band
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 219-258 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


:mew: > B: Think Ox summed it up pretty well in 4 words

:slowbro: > A: Physical attacking behemoths have returning in popularity seems like a trend now. Garchomp, Weavile, and Melmetal are rising again with only mrswole good enough to check them all. Colburpress sets are good in luring in weavile whilst slowbro's natural bulk makes future sight support against the aforementioned so much easier, pivoting out against them too giving excellent breakers that pair with slowbro such as Terrakion (coincidence i think not) or Kyurem.

:tyranitar: > A- : The versatility of this pokemon is what gives it a great niche in OU right now due to the high amounts of Kyurem and the rises of Blacephalon, Choice Band sets are extremely difficult to wall outside of Landorus if lacking Ice Punch and its probably up there with Landorus for the best Stealth Rock Setter in the tier as Corv usage is slowly going down.

:nihilego: > B-: A fairly consistent sweeper that takes advantage of Zapdos trending. Requires a lot of support to get going by removing the likes of Ferrothorn but Meteor Beam/Scarf sets easily have sweeping potential.

Drops

:hydreigon: > B+: The meta has shifted more unfavourable to Hydreigon with Double Steel cores and Clefable becoming popular, having this as your set up slot when Blace or weavile exist seems almost unreasonable. I do think Choice Scarf sets are still good, keeping it a decent pick in B+

:bisharp: > B: HO has shifted away from Bisharp since close to all of the tiers Defoggers have ways to KO Bisharp after hitting the Defiant boost, Sucker Punch sweeps are still good as usual but it doesn't justify a spot in the B+ ranks

Nominations I Agree With

:rotom-wash: > A-
:regieleki: > B
:zapdos: :zapdos-galar: > A-

:corviknight: > A
:dracozolt: > C+
 
Just pointing out to refresh the convo.

:Torkoal:/:Venusaur: up to at least C+ but I'd be ok with B-. Sun is a much better gimmick than C. It does a lot more work than the other things around that tier. Yes, it's no Hail, but Venusaur under the sun and V Create Sun Banded Victini are both absolute terrors. The matchups that team can get decimate one way or another, not as consistently as Hail. But with double steel + Lando cores making up a good bulk of this meta this team can REALLY shine.

:Blacephalon:/:Aegislash: both up one subrank. Everyone has been saying at least one of these to death. I myself even listed reasons why earlier. I feel like it's almost a given at this point but wanna at least keep the convo going here.

:Nihilego: --> B. This mon is an extremely potent wallbreaker and fits at home in a HO team more than many having a similar role ever had. He has seen an increase of usage for a reason: he can absolutely shred.

:Blaziken: --> B. I think this was said somewhere but I'm going to make sure. With the rise of double steel core (which I will be talking about a lot) Blaziken is in an even better spot than it's already been. It has some great synergy with many mon such as Weavile and blazes (ha) past the steels that often check it. It's major downside in a team like that is that there is a failure to check counters like Fini and Slowbro.

Agree:

:Slowbro: --> A. I would say he might eventually be A+ (secretly S+ tier because slowpoke is god) but with the ebb and flow of Slowbro Slowking one of them will always rise while the other falls. He provides excellent checks to the meta right now.

:regieleki: --> B-. I would put him around this tier with his resurfacing lately. I'm not sure if B or B- is more accurate to be a little safer. But alongside Galarian Zapdos this mon can be bonkers, having a partner wallbreaker will open the door for ultra fast electric spam.

:Zapdos-Galar: --> A-. Speaking of Zapdos Galar. This potent wallbreaker can absolutely destroy double steels and lando, and open the door for electric spam with relative ease. Very fun mon that I've completely changed my tune on lately. He does have some absolutely awful MUs however so that keeps him from a full A in my eyes.

:Jirachi: -->B. what a pleasant surprise this has been. A great rocker who could be better without that ghost weakness. But access to Healing Wish makes up for at least a bit of that and u-turn to boot keeps that tempo going. Deserving of a raise, though not a big one

:Dhelmise: --> C-. qwertyman888 gave ample evidence in my mind for this being viable in the OU tier. We can't forget entirely about the lowest end of the list and after reading his post and viewing his replays I'm entirely on board (ha) for this nautical ghost to be usable on an OU Trick Room team in C-.

:Mew: to B
:Glastrier: to C+
:Tangrowth: to B-
:polteageist: to C
:buzzwole: to B+
:Hydreigon: to B+/B

Disagree

:Kartana: rising. He is perfectly fine where he is at.

:Tapu Fini: rising. Originally I was all for her rising to S-. But I feel A+ is better suited as the meta evolves. She is great, but I wouldn't say meta defining at this moment. Especially with how it's evolved via double steel cores or just mons better checked by someone like Slow

:Xatu: to UR, it still is run in stalls
:Swampert: rising
:Scizor: rising
:Pelipper: and friends falling
 

Finchinator

You're so golden
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OU & NU Leader
Locking this. New slate will go up tonight or tomorrow. It will take a few days for me to get through it as I am taking a few days away mid-week, but expect the update this weekend.

Note that this will reflect the metagame with Kyurem as it is currently a suspect Pokemon in the tier, not something banned.
 

Finchinator

You're so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
I apologize for the delay. I had a complicated couple of days and forgot about this. You guys deserve someone who gives this thread the attention and time it requires as an active resource and I will do better to be that presence moving forward.

As we have gotten in the habit of doing, I am going to post the shifts and then open up the thread to 48 hours worth of questions. I get to every individual question I can and hopefully that will answer any questions without going too far out of the way. If you do not wish to ask publicly, feel free to VM/PM me, too. Also, please no repeat questions -- do your due diligence, thanks.

Rises
  • :Slowbro: from A- to A: Slowbro has been rising back up as the need for a more physically defensive Future Sight pivot continues to grow. Slowbro is oftentimes used as a response to Ground and Fighting types that can set-up teammates that appreciate a Future Sight looming over the head of the opposition.
  • :Blacephalon: from B+ to A-: The clown continues to blow the mind of players, coming back to relevance after being seemingly nonexistent for months. Choice Specs is devastating, oftentimes chewing through balance teams with Shadow Ball alone. People also periodically used Choice Scarf variants, which handle offense very well and can snowball against many unprepared opponents.
  • :Rotom-Wash: from B+ to A-: Rotom-Wash's presence as a pivot has continued to grow despite Kyurem remaining in the tier for right now and other Water types like Slowbro being common. Rotom-Wash's niche stems from being a great fit on bulky-offensive teams, oftentimes setting the table well with pivoting, inducing status, and threatening specific Pokemon out for teammates.
  • :Zapdos: from B+ to A-: Static is one of the most pesky abilities for a Pokemon frequently taking U-turn and Knock Off in battle. In addition, offensive Zapdos has a surprisingly good match-up against many balance and bulky-offensive teams while still maintaining a decent defensive presence.
  • :Zapdos-Galar: from B+ to A-: Everyone's favorite bird has continued to defy the odds and hold its own in OU largely due to how well it handles Landorus-Therian and how challenging it is to switch-into the dual STABs of.
  • :Hawlucha: from B to B+
  • :Mew: from B to B+
  • :Nihilego: from C+ to B-
  • :Rotom-Heat: from C+ to B-
  • :Regieleki: from C to C+
  • :Celesteela: from C- to C
  • :Polteageist: from UR to C-: Polteageist is a risky Pokemon to use, but it is ranked due to being a Shell Smash win-condition. It requires a good amount of support and has some match-ups it cannot handle, but with the right settings it can sweep.
Drops
  • :Corviknight: from A+ to A: Corviknight has remained a metagame staple in its debut generation, but the bird is flying down closer to Earth at the moment with the uptick in Defog Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, and even Scizor or Zapdos if they elect to run it. Corviknight is still a good option and maintains its defensive presence, but it simply fits onto fewer teams, especially with Bulk Up sets being a bit less common than prior metagames.
  • :Slowking-Galar: from A+ to A: Slowking-Galar has fallen out of favor with the uptick in other Kyurem pivots and regular Slowbro as pivot Psychic types, making other specially defensive pivots common on those structures. Of course, Sludge Bomb poisons and Future Sight threats still are quite appealing, but that is not enough to keep Slowking-Galar in A+ as a top 10 Pokemon in the tier.
  • :Tapu Koko: from A+ to A: Tapu Koko's pivoting prowess is great, but it is still not doing much progress wise against virtually any non-Garchomp Ground type right now. Setting the tempo and luring in Ground types or Grass types for teammates can go a long way, but not necessarily enough to keep Tapu Koko in A+ for the time being.
  • :Scizor: from A to A-: Scizor is still a great pivot to things like Kyurem and Tapu Lele, but it does not provide much offensively with the sets it uses to check these Pokemon, making it a limiting factor despite checking a few pressing options. It is hard to keep it in the A ranks when it accomplishes so little in many match-ups, especially when it struggles in many match-ups as a Defog supporter when people opt to go that route.
  • :Buzzwole: from A- to B+
  • :Hydreigon: from A- to B+
  • :Dragonite: from B+ to B
  • :Hippowdon: from B+ to B
  • :Skarmory: from B+ to B
  • :Slowking: from B+ to B
  • :Tyranitar: from B+ to B
  • :Rillaboom: from B+ to B
  • :Tapu Bulu: from B to B-
  • :Tangrowth: from B to C+
  • :Dracozolt: from B- to C+
  • :Swampert: from B- to C+
  • :Terrakion: from C+ to C: We are aware that many people requested a rise rather than a drop, but there was clear support for a Terrakion drop from the council. There are very few uses of it on the higher ladder or in tournaments, it provides nothing defensively (thus making building very challenging with it), and Terrakion still faces short-term checks like Landorus-Therian, Slowbro, and an abundance of revenge killers virtually every game.
  • :Amoonguss: from C to C-
  • :Porygon2: from C to C-
  • :Togekiss: from C to C-
  • :Slowbro-Galar: from C- to UR: Slowbro-Galar defensively lacks when compared to Slowking-Galar right now while the Quick Draw shenanigans simply do not see the usage to warrant viability right now.
Again: ask questions about raises/drops if you would like, but please no repeat questions. Will field and respond to them over the next 28 hours, thank you!
 
I'm just wondering about the heattom rise and the buzzwole drop. I haven't seen a single heattom on the ladder in weeks and I feel like it doesn't have a real niche right now. Buzzwole was overrated in the past but I feel like it's rising up again with the 3 attacks set as a blanket physical check.
 
I agree with most VR rises and drops, but would be great to know more about :

:Tapu Koko: - This drop was a real shocker
:Rillaboom: - I don't know how did it Glide down below B+
:Rotom-Heat: - What has made it hotter in OU?
:Tyranitar: - Why has this OU Rockstar fallen into a Dark canyon?
:Hippowdon: - Why is it losing ground in OU?

Also

:Kyurem: - Why is a mon considered broken by most of the community still frozen in A+? Wasn't there enough pressure to push it to S-Tier?
 
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BT89

i was in the war
is a Pre-Contributor
What's the morale for Rotom-Heat? I haven't really seen it be used outside of teams absolutely needing Arctozolt counterplay. Also, the Koko drop is weird, what was the agreement for that if you wouldn't mind going into detail?
 

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