Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

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So what ability have people been leaning towards for Marowak? Rock Head letting you spam Flare Blitz is powerful, but the utility you get from the electric immunity Lightning Rod brings could easily be better. I'm not sure since both have real advantages and figured I should ask.
I would like to disagree with the post from earlier and shed some light on why Rock Head is largely regarded as the better option. I can't deny that Lightning Rod has a lot of applicable defensive utility for Alolan Marowak teams, as they tend to be rather weak to Rotom-H, but Rock Head is definitely still preferable for various reasons.

The biggest reason to still use Rock Head is because you have to choose between taking a LOT of recoil damage from Flare Blitz or simply being too weak to effectively break down a bunch of teams with Fire Punch if you're running Lightning Rod. The former is something you really want to avoid because Alolan Marowak is already worn down really quickly between taking Stealth Rock damage and checking Pokemon like Magearna. On the flipside, running Fire Punch is simply undesirable because of its mediocre damage output, especially against Mandibuzz, which only needs to run very little investment in Defense to avoid being 2HKOed by an unboosted Fire Punch.
 
I would like to disagree with the post from earlier and shed some light on why Rock Head is largely regarded as the better option. I can't deny that Lightning Rod has a lot of applicable defensive utility for Alolan Marowak teams, as they tend to be rather weak to Rotom-H, but Rock Head is definitely still preferable for various reasons.

The biggest reason to still use Rock Head is because you have to choose between taking a LOT of recoil damage from Flare Blitz or simply being too weak to effectively break down a bunch of teams with Fire Punch if you're running Lightning Rod. The former is something you really want to avoid because Alolan Marowak is already worn down really quickly between taking Stealth Rock damage and checking Pokemon like Magearna. On the flipside, running Fire Punch is simply undesirable because of its mediocre damage output, especially against Mandibuzz, which only needs to run very little investment in Defense to avoid being 2HKOed by an unboosted Fire Punch.
So it mostly comes down to how important it is for you to be able to use Flare Blitz freely. I was figuring Poltergeist should be strong enough to spam, but it doesn't do enough on its own so you need the second high powered move in Flare Blitz to really pressure stuff and without Rock Head the longevity you sacrifice isn't worth the electric immunity. Pokemon that have multiple abilities with real application are always interesting so thanks for informing me about this stuff.
 

Martin

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Rock Head Wak >>>>>>>> that shitass Lightningrod set that stops checking anything the moment your opp clicks Stealth Rock.

Anyway, I've been thinking about Urshifu a lot recently and, while I do think it is probably broken given how limited its counterplay is, it's certainly not as totally unmanageable as people seem to imply that it is. I think Urshi is in a sorta similar spot to pre-DLC Cinderace in that the way you need to play around it highlights just how useless the Smog's definitions of check and counter are in the context of modern Pokemon. Of course, the big difference between pre-DLC Cinder and Urshifu is that Cinder at least had one good, non-specific hard answer that can shut it down completely (Hippowdon), but if you look at how non-Hippo teams dealt with Cinder back then you can get a lot of insight into the best way for balance teams to deal with Urshifu in this megagame without resorting to shit like Galarian Weezing and Comfey.

The first option is to try and pressure it passively with Rocky Helmet. There are lots of viable options which can do this well—Hippowdon, Tangrowth, Kommo-o, and Toxapex come to mind, but I've also seen people run Rocky Helmet Mandibuzz which can uniquely pressure Wicked Blow attempts (obviously at the cost of the more broadly useful Boots). Something that may be worth experimenting with if you have bigger balls than me+an effective defensive backbone to go with it is Rocky Helmet Druddigon, which can't "switch into" Urshifu in the sense that other Pokemon can but will deal around 58% to it/Cinderace/Conkeldurr/etc. with chip alone, leaving it as easy pickings for just about anything really (or letting you take it out on the spot if you get some prior damage onto it).

The second option is to run cores which can force it to make guesses. I've put a few examples in hide tags below, but if you have something that can shut down its options while punishing it for pressing the wrong button allow you to hold it off for long enough to maneuver into a winning position later on. The longer it takes for it to break down defensive cores, the more likely it is that they'll be forced into a position where they need to give it up to a revenge killer in order to maintain workable positioning late-game. Stuff like Brave Bird Mandibuzz in particular is very useful to directly threaten back when it clicks the wrong lock. Also Regen mons in these cores are godsends, as it means you can recover safely when you make the wrong guess.
:toxapex::mandibuzz:
:clefable::toxapex:
:clefable::scizor:
:amoonguss::mandibuzz:
:clefable::amoonguss:
etc.

The third and final option is to just be creative. Obviously people have already mentioned Galarian Weezing, Comfey, and PhysDef Togekiss, but setting Pokemon like that aside you can also attempt to lure it with things like resist berries to cripple it. Something like Colbur Berry+Thunder Wave Slowbro, Chople Berry+Thunder Wave Ferrothorn, Colbur Berry+Will-O-Wisp Mew/Cofagrigus etc. are all potential options you can run on different types of builds that aim to neuter it rather than taking it head-on, and I think it'll be interesting to see what abstract counterplay people come up with in the long term to make this matchup more manageable. Of course you can also just scout its lock with Protect, which also works. Edit: I'm a retard u can't do this

Like I said above, I think Urshifu is broken and can open up teams a little too easily, especially given that every guess that it needs to make offensively is also a guess that counterplay needs to make defensively. It also can't be responded to like the nutty Nasty Plot breakers can be (hard switching into offensive counterplay on the setup turn), which makes offensively checking it much harder and more dependent on timely positioning. However, I also feel like people get too hung up on hard answers when building when the fact is that such a philosophy is a relic of 10–15 years ago. If you're having difficulty with Urshifu (I'm sure most people are, myself included), adjust the way you go about building and kick the Smog's ancient check/counter definitions out of your skulls in favor of something more modern and relevant to the game as it is now.
 
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Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
Of course you can also just scout its lock with Protect, which also works.
You can't scout its lock, unseen fist gonna slap you. I also think darkshifu is less manageable than ur trying to portray but i'm still forming my own opinion myself.

So that this isn't a useless one-liner, I'd like to note that hydreigon has really fallen on hard times with the onset of av gearna, chansey, and even mons like urshifu forcing timid over modest. Without a lot of support, it struggles to break through new checks and old. Fortunately, I've tried using it in a different way and it hasn't been totally useless.

Hydreigon @ Chople Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Defog
- U-turn / Taunt / Toxic / Thunder Wave / whatever
- Roost

The given speed outpaces jolly exca, max hp and dump into defense. At first glance, it just seems like a worse mandibuzz, but there's a few distinctions. First is resisting electric, this provides a pretty solid check to raichu-alola, rotom heat, and to a lesser extent zeraora and magnezone. Resisting water is also nice, but many water types like kingdra, crawdaunt, azu, and barraskewda have coverage to hurt hydra. Resisting fire is alright, but it only helps out with marowak-alola and chandelure, as cinderace/volcarona will push through you without a problem.
Being a hard-stop to non toxic marowak and defogging its rocks is the main benefit here. I haven't thought of much other good sets hydra can rely on besides scarf nowadays, so if anybody has better ideas pls do chime in.
 

Martin

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You can't scout its lock, unseen fist gonna slap you.
oh yeah ur right lol. i edited it in after the fact and it totally slipped my mind—mostly bc i've mainly been using the helmet/dual checking methods and as such just haven't got around to Tecting in its face to remind me lmao. Also for what it's worth I agree that it is very hard to deal wtih; it's more that I think a lot of people on PS/similar seem to act as if it's smth that can't really be played around well even tho it very much can be.
 
oh yeah ur right lol. i edited it in after the fact and it totally slipped my mind—mostly bc i've mainly been using the helmet/dual checking methods and as such just haven't got around to Tecting in its face to remind me lmao. Also for what it's worth I agree that it is very hard to deal wtih; it's more that I think a lot of people on PS/similar seem to act as if it's smth that can't really be played around well even tho it very much can be.
I agree with this, but this again reminds me of how Melmetal was checked while it was OU and how Zacian was checked in Ubers. "Pivot around it until Rocky Helmet kills it or a revenge killer can get it without hopefully taking too much damage in the process" can be used as a catch-all check to almost any physical attacker in the game with the right defensive core.

There are other forms of counterplay to nearly all attackers. For comparison, Terrakion can be punished for switching hard in on any of its many weaknesses by virtually any Pokemon in the game (even Toxapex's Scalds and Corviknight's Body Presses and Iron Heads sting too hard for it to be brought in on them) and Cinderace's Rocks weakness punishes it for being forced out unless it runs Boots and gives up a lot of firepower. So both of these two mandate a certain level of team support to reach their potential. Urshifu doesn't really suffer from those issues. Its three weaknesses (the typically type-restricted Flying and Fairy plus the mostly physical Fighting) are not that bad in combination with its passable physical bulk. It resists Rocks, allowing it to brought in and out of play repeatedly to break down a team, and its natural access to U-turn facilitates this. It can therefore wear down its checks over a game. Rocky Helmet punishes this like with any U-turn spammer, but you have to have the right Rocky Helmet user. Slowbro, for instance, gets absolutely feasted on by it. So you have to pick Urshifu's checks carefully to avoid them turning into food for it or another breaker it pivots in. (BTW, if you want a clear illustration of how stupid Garm was, think Urshifu but with ANOTHER Choice Band on top).

At the same time, its stats and Ability don't exactly scream "broken" (unlike certain other quickbanned mons). I hesitate to label such an inoffensive-looking mon as "broken" when Darm, Conk, Drill, Ttar and many more hit much harder on paper. Its speed tier is good for the current metagame, but not outstanding. It has setup with Bulk Up, but its Speed is too poor to attempt a sweep. Scarfed sets are very rare due to its inefficiency at cleaning with any one attack and being short on power. But just having two reliable 120 BP STABs is not a feat most Pokemon in OU can boast. In addition to the only 4 attacks anyone seems to run, it has access to the elemental punches and Rock coverage to lure select checks. Its underwhelming-looking "Doubles ability" actually pairs perfectly with Choiced items to prevent it being scouted (mons are being lost on ladder on a very regular basis to this mistake lol). You also have to ask, how many mons can hit the entire metagame in 3 reliable attacks with room for U-turn? This excellent coverage means you either have to just accept punishment from its STABs neutrality, which nothing can do more than once, or play the pivoting game, accepting the punishment and waiting for a chance to force it out.

I think the right decision was made overall, giving it a chance in the OU tier. If it does stick, I feel certain that it will be the defining threat for OU defensive cores to prepare for, as unprepared teams can simply be cracked wide open by one of its absurdly strong STABs. It's like a much more balanced Band Garm that has more longevity and better coverage, but doesn't just 2HKO the entire tier with one move. I think its 550 BST is very, very misleading, and judging it on raw stats alone is a mistake.
 
Rock Head Wak >>>>>>>> that shitass Lightningrod set that stops checking anything the moment your opp clicks Stealth Rock.

Anyway, I've been thinking about Urshifu a lot recently and, while I do think it is probably broken given how limited its counterplay is, it's certainly not as totally unmanageable as people seem to imply that it is. I think Urshi is in a sorta similar spot to pre-DLC Cinderace in that the way you need to play around it highlights just how useless the Smog's definitions of check and counter are in the context of modern Pokemon. Of course, the big difference between pre-DLC Cinder and Urshifu is that Cinder at least had one good, non-specific hard answer that can shut it down completely (Hippowdon), but if you look at how non-Hippo teams dealt with Cinder back then you can get a lot of insight into the best way for balance teams to deal with Urshifu in this megagame without resorting to shit like Galarian Weezing and Comfey.

The first option is to try and pressure it passively with Rocky Helmet. There are lots of viable options which can do this well—Hippowdon, Tangrowth, Kommo-o, and Toxapex come to mind, but I've also seen people run Rocky Helmet Mandibuzz which can uniquely pressure Wicked Blow attempts (obviously at the cost of the more broadly useful Boots). Something that may be worth experimenting with if you have bigger balls than me+an effective defensive backbone to go with it is Rocky Helmet Druddigon, which can't "switch into" Urshifu in the sense that other Pokemon can but will deal around 58% to it/Cinderace/Conkeldurr/etc. with chip alone, leaving it as easy pickings for just about anything really (or letting you take it out on the spot if you get some prior damage onto it).

The second option is to run cores which can force it to make guesses. I've put a few examples in hide tags below, but if you have something that can shut down its options while punishing it for pressing the wrong button allow you to hold it off for long enough to maneuver into a winning position later on. The longer it takes for it to break down defensive cores, the more likely it is that they'll be forced into a position where they need to give it up to a revenge killer in order to maintain workable positioning late-game. Stuff like Brave Bird Mandibuzz in particular is very useful to directly threaten back when it clicks the wrong lock. Also Regen mons in these cores are godsends, as it means you can recover safely when you make the wrong guess.
:toxapex::mandibuzz:
:clefable::toxapex:
:clefable::scizor:
:amoonguss::mandibuzz:
:clefable::amoonguss:
etc.

The third and final option is to just be creative. Obviously people have already mentioned Galarian Weezing, Comfey, and PhysDef Togekiss, but setting Pokemon like that aside you can also attempt to lure it with things like resist berries to cripple it. Something like Colbur Berry+Thunder Wave Slowbro, Chople Berry+Thunder Wave Ferrothorn, Colbur Berry+Will-O-Wisp Mew/Cofagrigus etc. are all potential options you can run on different types of builds that aim to neuter it rather than taking it head-on, and I think it'll be interesting to see what abstract counterplay people come up with in the long term to make this matchup more manageable. Of course you can also just scout its lock with Protect, which also works. Edit: I'm a retard u can't do this

Like I said above, I think Urshifu is broken and can open up teams a little too easily, especially given that every guess that it needs to make offensively is also a guess that counterplay needs to make defensively. It also can't be responded to like the nutty Nasty Plot breakers can be (hard switching into offensive counterplay on the setup turn), which makes offensively checking it much harder and more dependent on timely positioning. However, I also feel like people get too hung up on hard answers when building when the fact is that such a philosophy is a relic of 10–15 years ago. If you're having difficulty with Urshifu (I'm sure most people are, myself included), adjust the way you go about building and kick the Smog's ancient check/counter definitions out of your skulls in favor of something more modern and relevant to the game as it is now.
I think that another important thing to mention is that Wicked Blow only has 8 pp. It is quite manageable do force the bear to run out of pp, especially the banded versions

I think the right decision was made overall, giving it a chance in the OU tier. If it does stick, I feel certain that it will be the defining threat for OU defensive cores to prepare for, as unprepared teams can simply be cracked wide open by one of its absurdly strong STABs. It's like a much more balanced Band Garm that has more longevity and better coverage, but doesn't just 2HKO the entire tier with one move. I think its 550 BST is very, very misleading, and judging it on raw stats alone is a mistake.
Well, this is valid for almost every mon in the game. An unprepared team can fall to a Swords Rillaboom, for example (not to say that I didn't mention Alolawak)

When you ban every stallbreaker in the game, just because they break stall, then you are turning the meta into GSC with abilities
 
I think that another important thing to mention is that Wicked Blow only has 8 pp. It is quite manageable do force the bear to run out of pp, especially the banded versions
Again, this reminds me of "Double Iron Bash only has 8 PP". It's true, but it just feels like there should be better counterplay than just waiting until the wallbreaker can't smash your team any more.
Well, this is valid for almost every mon in the game. An unprepared team can fall to a Swords Rillaboom, for example (not to say that I didn't mention Alolawak)
Yes, but "unprepared" for Urshifu means something different. If you're unprepared for Swords Rillaboom, for example, that means you don't have a sturdy check for it like Corviknight and you're going to get deservedly blasted. If you are "unprepared" for Urshifu, that means you're not running one of the multiple-mon cores armed with Rocky Helmet Martin was talking about, and your solitary check is going to get hammered on a correct prediction.
When you ban every stallbreaker in the game, just because they break stall, then you are turning the meta into GSC with abilities
1. GSC is an offensive metagame due to the presence of Spikes, one of the few reliable ways to pressure Snorlax, and Snorlax's Double-Edge having basically no switch-ins.
2. "Every stallbreaker"? Have you seen the size of UUBL lately? Durant, Obstagoon, Primarina until recently, Haxorus, Weavile Crawduant, Diggersby, Dracozolt... And that's the list of mons that can't get any usage in OU because we're too busy spamming Conk, Aegislash and Cinderace! Don't fear my friend. Stall gets 6-0ed from preview by half of OU unless it tailors its team to stopping that explicit threat.
 
How much of a necessity is it to have a ground immunity these days? I feel like the ground immunity used to be a staple of any and all good OU teams, but Excadrill is the only offensive ground type in the tier anyone really uses - you rarely will see Krook or Mamo - and Kommo-o's EQ is the only other ground coverage in the tier I feel like

Especially in the case of grassy surge neutering EQ's damage, but in general do you all still feel a ground immunity is a necessary stable to an OU team?
 
How much of a necessity is it to have a ground immunity these days? I feel like the ground immunity used to be a staple of any and all good OU teams, but Excadrill is the only offensive ground type in the tier anyone really uses - you rarely will see Krook or Mamo - and Kommo-o's EQ is the only other ground coverage in the tier I feel like

Especially in the case of grassy surge neutering EQ's damage, but in general do you all still feel a ground immunity is a necessary stable to an OU team?
Personally, I think so. The prevalence of teams like this:

that are extremely consistent and common on mid to high ladder means Ground resists are still pretty appreciated. Another more minor thing is Rillaboom/other mons that run ground coverage in High Horsepower or EQ for potent threats like Magearna. Often, without a Ground immunity or strong resist, it is difficult to force mind games with things like CB Rilla. This is not to say that an immunity is needed, however. Resists like Tangrowth and (to a lesser extent) Rillaboom can deal with some common Ground-types. However, on teams lacking bulky grasses, I'd recommend keeping a Ground immunity. It also doesn't hurt that Mandibuzz, an extremely solid immunity, has shown itself to be one of the best defensive and utility options available in the current meta.
 
Personally, I think so. The prevalence of teams like this:

that are extremely consistent and common on mid to high ladder means Ground resists are still pretty appreciated. Another more minor thing is Rillaboom/other mons that run ground coverage in High Horsepower or EQ for potent threats like Magearna. Often, without a Ground immunity or strong resist, it is difficult to force mind games with things like CB Rilla. This is not to say that an immunity is needed, however. Resists like Tangrowth and (to a lesser extent) Rillaboom can deal with some common Ground-types. However, on teams lacking bulky grasses, I'd recommend keeping a Ground immunity. It also doesn't hurt that Mandibuzz, an extremely solid immunity, has shown itself to be one of the best defensive and utility options available in the current meta.
Forgot about Marowak's ground coverage, very good points. Interesting how Rilla has really become something we consider as an offensive threat
 
How much of a necessity is it to have a ground immunity these days? I feel like the ground immunity used to be a staple of any and all good OU teams, but Excadrill is the only offensive ground type in the tier anyone really uses - you rarely will see Krook or Mamo - and Kommo-o's EQ is the only other ground coverage in the tier I feel like

Especially in the case of grassy surge neutering EQ's damage, but in general do you all still feel a ground immunity is a necessary stable to an OU team?
To be honest, I dont think that I can be the best person to give response, but I think that is not obligatory, but every good team has one because Defog, Corvi or Mandibuzz are the only 2 users of Defog that can afford that in the tier and have much more uses than being a ground inmunity, also Rillaboom exists so grassy terrain can make things like AV Mag holy unkillable
 
Again, this reminds me of "Double Iron Bash only has 8 PP". It's true, but it just feels like there should be better counterplay than just waiting until the wallbreaker can't smash your team any more.
You are forgeting that Melmetal is stronger than Urshifu. Offensivily* and defensivily. And steel is a better defensive type than dark/fighting.
Steel is weak to fighting, fire and ground and resists to bug, flying, normal, rock and steel, while fight/dark is weak to fairy (2x), fightning and flying and resists to dark (2x) and ghost. Both have 1 immunity.

Offensevily, Melmetal hits harder than Urshifu:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal on a critical hit: 255-301 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 306-362 (74.4 - 88%) -- approx. 2HKO

I considered the same base stats. Melmetal is way slower, it's true, but it can tank more hits than urshifu, thanks to its 135 base hp and 143 base def
 
You are forgeting that Melmetal is stronger than Urshifu. Offensivily* and defensivily. And steel is a better defensive type than dark/fighting.
Steel is weak to fighting, fire and ground and resists to bug, flying, normal, rock and steel, while fight/dark is weak to fairy (2x), fightning and flying and resists to dark (2x) and ghost. Both have 1 immunity.

Offensevily, Melmetal hits harder than Urshifu:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal on a critical hit: 255-301 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 306-362 (74.4 - 88%) -- approx. 2HKO

I considered the same base stats. Melmetal is way slower, it's true, but it can tank more hits than urshifu, thanks to its 135 base hp and 143 base def
Well of course Melmetal is stronger, Melmetal got quickbanned. If there was any comparison between them at all, Urshifu would be quickbanned as well, but it hasn't been. I never said they were the same.
What I'm saying here, is that I'm hearing the exact same suggestions bought up for how to "check" them. And that is worrying to me, because of the only methods people can think of to deal with Urshifu are the same ones suggested to "check" the broken threat Melmetal, that suggests that Urshifu is not very healthy.
 
I agree, but that's pretty irrelevant since that's just speculation.
I would like other changes to certain Pokemon, but this thread is about the current state of OU and not about what you would like to see GameFreak change.

A lot of this simply isn’t true and some of this is pretty disingenuous as well.

Like when you limit the things that can’t take 3 hits to just dedicated walls, while also calculating for Specially Bulky Clefable, instead of Physically Bulky.
And while not traditionally used as a wall, Physically bulk Togekiss and Comfey (yes, Comfey is actually viable now mostly because of Urshifu though) can survive multiple Wicked Blows while healing off any damage.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss on a critical hit: 110-130 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey on a critical hit: 114-135 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Also Dracovish absolutely had no switch-ins. Seismitoad would be 2HKO’d by Outrage and Toxapex out of rain would be 2HKO’d cleanly by Psychic Fangs.
Urshifu doesn’t have switch-ins either with coverage, the closest being Weezing-G, which [Urshifu] must rely on Iron Head, Urshifu is harder to get in thanks to its worse Special Bulk and Defensive typing.

I would also like to note that there have been truly uncounterable mons in the past for OU’s history. Hoopa-U comes to mind first, and even in SWSH OU with Terrakion, which also has no switch-ins.
They had their reasons for staying OU for sure, but with Urshifu’s weaknesses, I think it will stay in OU as well in a respectable tier.
lmao! Did you forgot that Urshifu learns “Poison Jab”? Oh, I think you did. With predictions it can actually 6-0 a team. Poison Jab 2HKO Clef and Togekiss (Calc it). Urshifu makes players runvery bulky stuff which it makes the tier “Boring” because of “Bulky Standard teams and Stall” to counter a single mon. That’s my whole point. Wicked Blow isn’t the only attack that he learns. He has coverage to “blow back” Most mons. Thanks for replying and remember: “it will be banned very soon”. Peace!
 
Why would you use a spdef clefable to check a urshifu?
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
Not to mention a fat fighting resist+a fat dark resist(i.e. mandibuzz+toxapex) can very much handle urshifu with prediction
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 19.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mandibuzz on a critical hit: 105-123 (24.7 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
They even can tank a wicked blow or cc, in case you predict incorrectly, once while being able to recover later. If you want a more garunteed switchin, galarian-weezing fulfills that criteria nicely, and phydef lefties hippo can very nicely switch in as well
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 93-111 (27.8 - 33.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 46-55 (13.7 - 16.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 84-99 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's fine to think this mon is banworthy or has limited switchins, but to say it just straight up isn't able to be dealt with defensively is just wrong, especially since you can feasibly stall out its stabs due to how low PP they are, unlike vish.
Like I said before: “Wicked Blow isn’t He’s only attack!” It leans Poison Jab for Fairies and it can run a Bulk Up set with and easily destroys a team. Do some calcs man. Has to many coverage vs majority of the metta and that’s why “He will be banned”. It limits you to run bulky stally mons to try and stop it and even thought he can still break it. You can’t protect against it! It’s not “healthy” for the metta and teambuilds! Peace!
 
lmao! Did you forgot that Urshifu learns “Poison Jab”? Oh, I think you did. With predictions it can actually 6-0 a team. Poison Jab 2HKO Clef and Togekiss (Calc it). Urshifu makes players runvery bulky stuff which it makes the tier “Boring” because of “Bulky Standard teams and Stall” to counter a single mon. That’s my whole point. Wicked Blow isn’t the only attack that he learns. He has coverage to “blow back” Most mons. Thanks for replying and remember: “it will be banned very soon”. Peace!
Like I said before: “Wicked Blow isn’t He’s only attack!” It leans Poison Jab for Fairies and it can run a Bulk Up set with and easily destroys a team. Do some calcs man. Has to many coverage vs majority of the metta and that’s why “He will be banned”. It limits you to run bulky stally mons to try and stop it and even thought he can still break it. You can’t protect against it! It’s not “healthy” for the metta and teambuilds! Peace!
Wasn't going to reply to this, but as a theorymonner, here's some calcs for you:
Urshifu Poison Jab vs. Corviknight: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Urshifu Poison Jab vs. Magearna: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
"Prediction goes both ways". What this means is you cannot assume that one player always makes the correct prediction: for every prediction, there is a counter-prediction the other side can make. In general, when theorying out of a established gamestate, it is reasonable to assume that the Urshifu player will make safe plays, rather than risking a lot of momentum on Poison Jab unless he knows there is a specific payoff for doing so (ie: The Fairy is the only Urshifu check left) or he has reason to believe that he can make a correct prediction (such as the opponent being limited on options or having made a similar play several times earlier). So in general, theorymon for the most likely gamestate. Yes, we are aware it gets Poison Jab. But the risk involved in clicking it early in a game is too high for most players, and theorymonning about lategame scenarios is rather pointless, since it is more a question of psychology and the relative state of the two teams as wholes. Thanks for reading, and I hope this improves your theorymonning!
 

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lmao! Did you forgot that Urshifu learns “Poison Jab”? Oh, I think you did. With predictions it can actually 6-0 a team. Poison Jab 2HKO Clef and Togekiss (Calc it). Urshifu makes players runvery bulky stuff which it makes the tier “Boring” because of “Bulky Standard teams and Stall” to counter a single mon. That’s my whole point. Wicked Blow isn’t the only attack that he learns. He has coverage to “blow back” Most mons. Thanks for replying and remember: “it will be banned very soon”. Peace!
Thing is, that's really the case with any wallbreaker. If you "predict correctly", then you can 6-0 with really any mon. It's not really something that's reserved exclusively to Urshifu. By that logic, we should ban Lycanroc-Dusk for its amazing coverage since it can 6-0 teams if you predict correctly with it, or ban Excadrill since it can 6-0 teams if you get Iron Head predicts right. It's absurd to try and ban breakers just because they can win if you predict well with them, especially if their main forms of power come through a Choice item. You also imply that Clefable/Comfey will always be hard switched in, as if there is no possibility that the opponent will try to predict you catching their Wicked Blow/CC resist.theotherguytm described it much better than I could, so I would redirect your attention to that post if you want a better breakdown of why prediction is a very inconsistent way to gauge the brokenness of a wallbreaker.

Anyway, speaking of Urshifu, I would like to give my thoughts on it now that we've had some time with its wallbreaking potential.

No, not you Rapid Strike. Perish.


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I initially dismissed Urshifu as a good wallbreaker but not anything that would terrorize the tier, and after using it, I stand corrected. Single Strike singlehandedly is capable of deconstructing stall cores with its incredible STABs and access to Iron Head/Poison Jab, while also being able to pivot with U-Turn and forego its speed tier with a nasty STAB priority option in Sucker Punch. It's indisputable that Single Strike Urshifu has taken the tier by storm, and many people are discussing as to whether or not its wallbreaking potential is too much for the tier. After playing some with it, I'd like to dissect it point by point.

1: Wicked Blow

Wicked Blow is arguably the most alarming part of Single Strike's kit. Being a base 80 BP dark move that is guaranteed to crit the target is just as incredible on paper as it is in execution, as it is able to completely tear apart Screens Offense and muscle past common defensive walls that don't resist it. Such things as Tangrowth, Chansey, Toxapex, despite being great walls in the tier, still have an extremely hard time switching into it, especially if the Urshifu user is running a Choice Band. On top of this, it being a Dark move is simply incredible as well, as it is able to obliterate common defensive pivot Slowbro without any trouble whatsoever, on top of lacking any good resists outside of Mandibuzz and Galarian Weezing. It also lacks any immunities, making it always deal some semblance of damage to its targets.

2: Set options

At a glance, despite its middling 550 BST for a legendary, its stat distribution is what's of note. 130 base attack was always incredible, and that has never changed over the generations despite power creep, and on top of this, it gets a horrifying STAB bonus to its Close Combat and Wicked Blow, making them absolute nukes if it gets in safely. It also has a base 97 speed tier; though, despite being middling, it still gets a very relevant jump on some important Pokemon like Kyurem and Hydreigon.

Even though it might lose out to base 100s, it has just enough speed to get away with putting an emphasis on augmenting its insane power. The most common set I've seen on the ladder (and that I've used) is a Choice Band variant, which is able to blow all non-resists away, and even still respectably dent said resists. I don't need to show you the calcs to show you that even physically defensive Pokemon struggle to contain its blows. Even with its nonoptimal speed tier, it still has STAB Sucker Punch to blow away faster, frailer targets.

I've also seen Bulk Up Urshifu be run, which is amazing against Stall/Semi-stall cores in particular which struggle to naturally outspeed/punish Urshifu. It can also stack Bulk Up boosts, enabling it to win at preview if the user doesn't have a healthy, physically defensive Fairy type on their team. This set isn't as good against more offensive teams, but it for sure has its place.

Choice Scarf, among these, is the most uncommon set I've seen. Though, that's not to downplay its utility. Urshifu's access to U-Turn allows for it to play the momentum game to a greater effectiveness with the speed boost, and Wicked Blow/CC are great cleaning options for reasons I don't need to explain. Though, it is considerably weaker, and most prominently, loses out on some important damage ranges (such as against Tangrowth).

3: Unseen Fist

This is something that is seldom talked about with Urshifu, though I think still has some relevancy regardless, given the newfound influx of Wishpassing to the tier in the past months. Urshifu's access to Poison Jab allows for it to cleave right through Clefable, and it can't play the Wish stalling game, as it is able to penetrate right through its Protect, forcing Clefable to take damage no matter what it does. The same goes with Wishpassing Vaporeon and Chansey, which need to hard switch or stomach a blow. Outside of this and some fringe Protect Kommo-O/Baneful Bunker Toxapex variants, Unseen Fist isn't the greatest ability in the tier. But, it's extremely noteworthy anyway for its ability to completely dismantle common Stall and Wishport Balance cores alike.

--

So, what's my conclusion?

I genuinely do not know if it is broken or not, but I'm leaning more toward it being a top tier breaker as opposed to broken.

On paper and in execution, this thing is fearsome beyond all definition. Wicked Blow, Unseen Fist, and the ability to exploit its options gives it immense wallbreaking capabilities that the tier definitely needs to try and adapt to; however, I would like to be a play the devil's advocate and say that, much unlike Dracovish, this thing is definitely more than an unga bunga machine. Its defensive typing, defensive stats, and ultimately mediocre speed tier are beyond desirable, meaning that getting it in requires more tactful play, and even when you get it in, you need to scale which of Urshifu's options would be the best in the moment. Do you want to predict the Fairy switch-in? Do you want to get off a meaty CC, but risk revenge killing? Do you want to call a move and Sucker Punch? Do you want momentum and get a U-Turn off? Or, do you want to get off a Wicked Blow as a strong midground play? All of these options have their merits and have opportunity costs due to Urshifu's innate cons as a Pokemon, and as such, it's never really dominated any game I've played unless the opponent didn't have a Fairy or Dark resist. This kind of goes back to what was mentioned earlier about prediction being an inherently inconsistent way of gauging something being broken, and it requiring actual skill and finesse.

I think the best thing I can compare this to is Gen 7 Landorus Therian. It is extremely good--even top tier--but it is not necessarily impossible to prepare for, since there are checks and relatively consistent answers in the tier to account for it due to its glaring downsides, such as Physically Defensive Mandibuzz, Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, Galarian Weezing, Comfey, and the plethora of splashable revenge killers that capitalize on it being locked into a move, lacking a sufficient speed tier, or needing to set up. If anything, I feel it's healthy for its ability to force Stall and defensive cores to think/play more thoughtfully. I acknowledge that we're super early into Isle of Armor and it might turn out being really broken, but I personally haven't had many issues handling it.
 
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lmao! Did you forgot that Urshifu learns “Poison Jab”? Oh, I think you did.
Urshifu "Too much for OU"

The main reason I think that Urshifu is broken in the OU tier is because it can 2 hit KO every dedicated wall mon in the tier with choice banded wicked blow. It has zero switch ins aside from meme techs like anger point Krook or Phys Def Weezing-Galar.
Funny how as people point out this statement as being wrong (as in fact there are plenty of Pokemon not 2HKO’s by Banded Wicked Blow) you then move the goal post by saying “Well they’ll be hit by Poison Jab”.
While Urshifu finds itself less often the need to switch out against defensive cores, Terrakion had the same problem of not having any Switch-ins either to its Choice Band set, and saying “Well Terrakion can just use X move” didn’t really pan out and Terrakion eventually was comfortable at A rank before the DLC without being suspected once.
 
Well of course Melmetal is stronger, Melmetal got quickbanned. If there was any comparison between them at all, Urshifu would be quickbanned as well, but it hasn't been. I never said they were the same.
What I'm saying here, is that I'm hearing the exact same suggestions bought up for how to "check" them. And that is worrying to me, because of the only methods people can think of to deal with Urshifu are the same ones suggested to "check" the broken threat Melmetal, that suggests that Urshifu is not very healthy.
I agree with you, but let me use your words: don't fear, my friend. I'm pretty sure that Urshifu will be "only" a extremely good mon, like Landorus-T
 
Please guys. When you make a team do not fear urshifu dark. It is Good for sure but it is not like super broken. please explore the metagame before thinking it's broken (in my opinion it's good but not broken to be banned) There are lots of options to keep it in check (toxapex hippowdon, phys def t tangrowth, phys def clef, heracross, defensive azu,weezing galar, mandibuzz which can pivot to it as some switch ins and then some mons with a higher speed (hydreigon,terrakion, base or with scarfers such as togekiss magearna, dragapult(anyghostype) if it's choice locked in close combat so ye that is just my oppinion on it! Have a nice day! :)
 
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Rillaboom I feel is in a very good position in the meta. I don't know if Rillaboom will go to OU or not (UU would be a good home with good usage in OU), but there's no denying that it getting Grassy Surge combined with the buffs it got in the DLC with Grassy Glide, new mons it checks/counters, and some other mons that check/counter rillaboom are slowly falling out of favor is a HUGE deal for him.

He's basically Tapu Bulu, but has lots of Utility options. U-Turn for switch momentum, Knock Off to deal with Ghost types and get rid of items, Grassy Glide for powerful Priority stab, Wood Hammer for wall breaking/sweeping potential, Bulk Up and Swords Dance for sweeping setups, leech seed with Grassy Terrain for constant recovery, Fake Out for chip damage, and either Hammer Arm/High Horse Power or something else to cover certain mons like Toxapex, Urshifu, etc.

It does face competition with SSS Urshifu IMHO for the choice band role, as Urshifu doesn't get walled out easily whereas Rillaboom does get walled decently well. Deep down, I think Choice Band Urshifu outclasses Rillaboom for the role. As a revenge killer, choice scarf user and utility mon though, I think Rillaboom does a great job at these roles.

We will see what the release of the Tapu's do to the meta and Rillaboom in general in November, but as of right now, I think Rillaboom is good in the current meta and in a good spot
 
Porygon2 gets Trick Room + Teleport and can't die.

We have no Flash Fire in OU right now.

We have access to Specs Eruption Drought Torkoal and more importantly Marowak no drawback Flareblitz

e.g.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery


I still need to fine tune this fire spam tr team but man, trick room port is crazy good
 
Porygon2 gets Trick Room + Teleport and can't die.

We have no Flash Fire in OU right now.

We have access to Specs Eruption Drought Torkoal and more importantly Marowak no drawback Flareblitz

e.g.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery


I still need to fine tune this fire spam tr team but man, trick room port is crazy good
Yes while super strong you only really have 3 turns to do anything, and Porygon2 hates getting its Eviolite knocked off as otherwise it loses its bulk, which is why you'd even use it in the first place. Furthermore, Torkoal never runs Specs or Eruption, it'd much rather run other more supportive sets (and frankly it's garbo in OU). Marowak-Alola isn't even that good even with Poltergeist, it's slow as balls and it's actually really frail. In short, TR has been and will always be bad.
 
Marowak-Alola isn't even that good even with Poltergeist, it's slow as balls and it's actually really frail. In short, TR has been and will always be bad.
Gimmiks like Eruption Torkoal work only in vgc but TrickRoom is better as ever in this gen. Hatterene and Crawdant now has company in Alowak and Magearna. Also new setter in Porygon2 and Slowbro make set TrickRoom 10 times better
:porygon2: :slowbro: :hatterene: :crawdaunt: :marowak alola: :magearna:
https://pokepast.es/45356a308984695e
 
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