Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

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So, I want to talk about a surprising, fringe anomaly I'm seeing running around on the ladder currently.

:ss/tangela:

Tangela. At first, I was extremely confused. I thought it was some weird low ladder tech, but then, when then I smacked an opposing Tangela with a Wicked Blow and was surprised to see that it didn't do as much as I expected.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela on a critical hit: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

After calcing that, I found the minimum defense required for Urshifu's best moves to be consistent 3HKOs without hazard damage.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Eviolite Tangela on a critical hit: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It was then that I realized that the calcs here are the sole reason that people are currently running Tangela over Tangrowth on the ladder. And, after a little experience, it's been a pretty ok way of combating Banded Urshifu on Stall/defensive cores, which otherwise dismantles them. You might wonder why exactly you might want to run Tangela over Weezing-Galar, which is a much more snug fit for its ability to counter Iron Head-less Urshifu. Though, it has some amenities that Weezing does not.

1: Sustainability

This is probably the point that is best in Tangela's favor. Not only does it have access to Morning Sun/Synthesis, but it has Leech Seed, and most significantly, Regenerator. Regenerator is a godlike defensive ability that has spawned cores of its own, and Tangela is an abuser of it. Not only is it able to switch in on Urshifu's blows, but it is able to also heal it off after sporting its relatively solid utility moves, letting it sponge hits but keep coming in and out of battle, much unlike Weezing. Being able to launch Leech Seeds on incoming targets as well as its choices of Toxic, Knock Off, Stun Spore, and Sleep Powder while still being able to heal reliably gives it a lot more longevity over the course of the match, and more utility outside of checking Urshifu.

2: Utility

I eluded somewhat to this, but it's definitely a great point in Tangela's favor. Access to the powders and Knock Off is fantastic, as it is able to incapacitate a Pokemon's item-based firepower (most prominently Urshifu's), paralyze a target, or put a target to sleep. This isn't really too necessary to talk about, because Tangrowth has made us familiar with these options, but they are unique to Tangela as an Urshifu check versus Weezing-Galar.

3: Typing

A pure Grass typing is pretty alright right now, especially on an Eviolite-boosted Tangela. The biggest reason its pure Grass typing is cool is that it provides Stall with a pretty great Excadrill check (unlike Weezing) that is able to paralyze the mole, on top of just being a pretty ok mixed wall as merit of Eviolite. It's also nice that it is a nice immediate switch-in to Rillaboom and Azumarill, too, but this doesn't last long whatsoever if they have Knock Off.

--

Though, there's a reason Tangela is considerably niche more than anything else. To illustrate my point, I'd like to compare Tangela to its older counterpart, Tangrowth.

:ss/tangrowth: VS :ss/tangela:

The comparison solely comes down to the item slot. Tangela's only niche over Tangrowth is having Eviolite-boosted defenses, which gives it more of a defensive edge over Tangrowth. Though, this very point is also Tangela's Achilles Heel. Tangela is greatly reliant on having its Eviolite to soak more damage, and as such, absolutely hates being hit with Knock Off, similarly to Chansey/P2. Tangrowth, contrarily, has an item slot, which it can fill with an Assault Vest or a Rocky Helmet, which provides it with additional utility that makes it a much better, more reliable pick overall. Though, more prominently, Tangrowth isn't crippled by Knock Off.

So, what is my conclusion?

Tangela is a fringe hard Stall pick, and should remain as such as long as Urshifu is in the tier. It is without question that Urshifu brings a ton of trouble to Stall, and Tangela is definitely a pretty ok answer that compresses Amoonguss/Tangrowth's utility into one package without Galar Weezing's glaring longevity issue. However, its reliance on Eviolite and lack of an item's utility is exactly why Tangrowth is just better in every other situation. If you're considering Tangela on a Balance/Semi-stall team, you should really just be considering Tangrowth instead, especially since Tangela still somewhat has a shot of being 2HKO'd with hazards up anyway.

To end things off, if you want my take on a set, I've experimented with the following:

Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish / Bold Nature
- Synthesis / Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Sleep Powder / Stun Spore / Toxic

This general variant is what I believe is its best set. I fully optimize your Urshifu and Excadrill matchup with Max Max, and use Tangela as a pure, defensive utilitarian, combining several of its best attributes in the form of its sustainability, Knock Off support, and powder support. Toxic is an option as well if Bulk Up Urshifu is giving you trouble, as it can force the opponent to act quickly and promptly despite the middling matchup. If you're too worried about being Taunt fodder and want to kind of slap Grass-weak mons, then Giga Drain can be slashed over Synthesis (then run Bold over Impish). You could alternatively run 140 Def Impish to barely guarantee the 3HKO from Urshifu, and put the rest in SpDef. Though, given how it's a niche hard Stall Pokemon, it's best to just speck it where it performs the best, as it does perform rather badly on the Special side anyway.
Just want to add to this that Urshifu can spam U-turn against Tangela teams without fear due to it lacking Rocky Helmet.
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 112-132 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Add in Urshifu's Rocks resist and Tangela really can't punish it Garm-ing it over and over. Sure, it will regain most of the health it loses to the move, but if Rocks are up on both sides, Urshifu is the one who comes out on top.
 
Y'know, I think it's weird how little attention electric terrain is getting in this thread. I've seen plenty about Indeedee and Rillaboom, but only 2/3 mentions of my boi Pincurchin. Seriously, I love this spiny li'l guy, and I've seen relative success with him, with this team.

Pincurchin @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic Spikes
- Rising Voltage
- Protect

Pretty standard I think, T Wave for status spread, toxic spikes because why not, Rising Voltage for surprising amounts of damage, and protect. I'm probably going to drop protect because I'm not the biggest fan of it, but it got me out of a scrape against a poisoned volc (no HDB, no idea why) so it's not all bad.

Raichu-Alola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Grass Knot
- Surf
- Focus Blast

Sweeper Number One please! This guy is almost unstoppable, apart from fat pink blobs and the odd focus blast miss. Grass defense cores are not my friend, I'll tell you that much, but sometimes rising voltage provides that power to break through that last quarter of health if it needs to.

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Throat Chop

Don't even need to explain this guy, come in on turn 2 or 3, swords dance, and then proceed to 6 - 0 everything bar scarf pult. GG EZ.

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Scald
- Haze
- Whirlpool

Now, I know what you're thinking, "who the hell runs whirlpool?". Well, I absolutely love random meme moves that no one expects because they're normally so useless, and whirlpool is great here. Trap a poisoned special attacker, such as volc, then spam roost and the occasional whirlpool again till win. Fun times to be had by all.

Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Corrosive Gas

This was my dedicated urshifu counter, but seeing after that amazing tangela tech, I'm definitely switching to my favourite pile o' vines. Anyway, this can be quite passive at times, but it has a hard time getting killed, so there's that. Also, corrosive gas is so funny, no one expects it, until it's too late...

Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Foul Play
- Knock Off
- Taunt

Don't think I need to explain this guy either, he comes in on anything that doesn't kill him, and either pivots out, attacks or taunts. It also destroys trapped zams, which never fails to amuse.

Seriously guys, please criticise and take apart this team to your hearts content, I want to see where I'm going wrong, because I definitely am somewhere. Also, use electric terrain damnit!
Hey, a post like this is more suited for the Rate My Team forum. Please make sure to read the rules of the forum before posting there, though this follows most guidelines provided already.

Anyways, I would also like to comment on running Stealth Rock on Alolan Marowak. In my opinion, it's an undesirable option for various reasons. While it's true that fitting a different Stealth Rock setter onto teams with Alolan Marowak can be a little hard, I would honestly rather drop Stealth Rock altogether than run it on Alolan Marowak. It's very similar to Mega Mawile; a strong wallbreaker like it and Alolan Marowak will just want to click buttons, and will practically always force progress in some manner, regardless of whether Stealth Rock is on the field or not. Running Stealth Rock also significantly reduces your options, forcing Alolan Marowak to either drop Swords Dance or Earthquake / Bonemerang, neither of which is really desirable.
 
I haven’t tried out electric terrain / alola raichu yet, but was a little surprised to see it not ranked in the new rankings thread. Seems like rising voltage is a good buff and with nasty plot + psyshock + surf it has the coverage to break through stuff like Hippowdon and Chansey that one would expect to annoy it. I get that Pincurchin is bad, but it seems to have enough support moves in spikes, memento, t spikes, self-destruct, etc. to make it usable with good abusers. Am I theorymon overestimating how good alola raichu and electric terrain are? Love to hear from someone who’s tried them.
I think the biggest issue is having to run it with Pincurchin, which stacks a Ground weakness and offers virtually nothing to a team offensively or defensively. It can set up spikes, but it invites in Excadrill for free.
 
Good thing you have 4 more Pokémon to complete the team.

Well three, I assume Hawlucha is the 3rd.
I am aware that you have more Pokemon to complete the team. You are simply sacrificing a lot by offering a slot to Pincurchin. It's a big momentum sap and overall liability for a strategy as unreliable as Rising Voltage. If Pincurchin had access to Volt Switch or U-Turn then I'd consider the strategy to be considerably better.
 
stacking ground weaknesses isnt really an issue for electric terrain imo. alolachu has grass knot or surf for coverage, which deal with grounds handily. i heavily favor NP+grass knot on it. since it beats most of the ou viable grounds besides excy (which is setup fodder for lucha) and diggersby (who beats chu with priority anyway).

the biggest issue is that pinchy is simply a bad mon. its frail and slow. if you're lucky you might get a layer of spikes off, or a memento, or do some decent chip with Rvoltage. but most of the time hes just a slot dedicated to setting terrain. Meanwhile alolachu doesnt really fear most of OUs grounds, but it does get absolutely destroyed by priority due to its atrocious physical bulk. the committal nature of raichu and lucha can make it fairly prediction-reliant and also leads to a poor matchup vs stall. plus, rilla is solid and can shut things down very easily.

many of the other issues like ground types or weaknesses to tang or ferro are made up for luchas ability to exploit these and keep momentum. but overall its a very rigid playstyle.
 
I am aware that you have more Pokemon to complete the team. You are simply sacrificing a lot by offering a slot to Pincurchin. It's a big momentum sap and overall liability for a strategy as unreliable as Rising Voltage. If Pincurchin had access to Volt Switch or U-Turn then I'd consider the strategy to be considerably better.
It gets Memento and has 15 base speed. Im not saying Pincurchin is a good Pokémon lol, just that it does have the tools to just barely function. It Spikes for free against most Defoggers as well only really fearing Excadrill who you can build the team to handle. It also has the bulk to easily switch in on passive shit like Corviknight, Pex, Clef, Ferro etc so it's not like it has trouble switching in. It also has Rising Voltage so it's capable of heavily damaging anything not immune.. Again I'm not saying it's good, but just like Politoed and Pelipper it's not about the mon, but about the play style it enables.

At least until Tapu Koko is released...

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%)

252+ SpA Scarf Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi in Rain: 330-388 (96.7 - 113.7%)

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 292-345 (85.6 - 101.1%)

Hope everyone's ready to run AV Landorus on every team to handle Koko.
 
Aegislash and Conkeldurr spring to mind. Magearna obviously works great on TR. If you're willing to go a bit "out there", Dragalge could work. Its Draco Meteors annihilate anything that doesn't resist them, and its Sludge Bombs/Waves nail Fairies. It has Hydro Pump, Focus Miss and Thunder(bolt) for its admittedly weak coverage, as well as access to a couple of sneaky tricks in Toxic Spikes and Flip Turn (imagine the momentum gain from Flip Turning into Duck on the last turn of TR...).
I tested your ideas:
Dragalge sadly doesn't work well with a Toxapex + Chansey infested metagame, even though Flip Turn made it much, much better
Conkeldurr is odd, I expected more of it. I tried teching Defog on it, kinda bad ngl on TR.

After playing some ladder games, I am even more convinced about the power of TR. But you need to run the best setter Pory2

Also I can't wait for my boi Stakataka + Body Press in the DLC
 
Also I can't wait for my boi Stakataka + Body Press in the DLC
Probably not worth it. Unless you're running an actual defensive set you should be 15 def IV lonely to tie attack and def to get beast boost attack buffs. So it's basically an 80 base power move that doesn't even get stronger if you get a kill. Just run Superpower to nuke Ferro.
 
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Probably not worth it. Unless you're running an actual defensive set you should be 0 def IV lonely to tie attack and def to get beast boost attack buffs. So it's basically an 80 base power move that doesn't even get stronger if you get a kill. Just run Superpower to nuke Ferro.
15 IVs actually, as 252 Atk Lonely reaches 397, and 0 Def EVs 15 IVs Lonely gives you 397 as well. Beast Boost will then pick Atk to boost as there is a tie and Atk comes first in the tie check.
Unless Beast Boost changes, then have 14 IVs.
 
To talk about a relevant Body Presser, Kommo-o really shines currently.

With it's Fighting typing, it's the only Iron Defense abuser that doesn't mind Urshifu's Wicked Blow, then can hit Urshifu back hard with a +2 Body Press.
There also seems to be an influx of physical attackers too, as well as an increase of walls Kommo-o can taunt as to stallbreak too, although it must sacrifice one of its moves to do so.
 
I tested your ideas:
Dragalge sadly doesn't work well with a Toxapex + Chansey infested metagame, even though Flip Turn made it much, much better
Conkeldurr is odd, I expected more of it. I tried teching Defog on it, kinda bad ngl on TR.

After playing some ladder games, I am even more convinced about the power of TR. But you need to run the best setter Pory2

Also I can't wait for my boi Stakataka + Body Press in the DLC
Running Defog on Conk is like running Stealth Rock on Terrakion or Alolawak. Just. Do. Damage. Well, I'm glad you tried Dragalge, about the result I expected really since its non-Adaptability moves are so weak. Aegi is still busted though, and I will not be convinced otherwise.
 
I think the biggest issue is having to run it with Pincurchin, which stacks a Ground weakness and offers virtually nothing to a team offensively or defensively. It can set up spikes, but it invites in Excadrill for free.
Scald can be used on Pincurchin to pressure Excadrill and Hippowdon. It does hefty amounts even uninvested and threatens with a burn.
0 SpA Pincurchin Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 152-180 (42.1 - 49.8%)
0 SpA Pincurchin Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 140-166 (33.3 - 39.5%)
 
I can't believe how far Aegislash has fallen. He's obviously still a terrific pokemon, but he isn't close to being a metadefining threat. Would things have been different if he kept his old stats?
 

Ruft

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I can't believe how far Aegislash has fallen. He's obviously still a terrific pokemon, but he isn't close to being a metadefining threat. Would things have been different if he kept his old stats?
This is the OU subforum, not theorymon central.
Like Finch said, this is not the place for theorymonning. Please refrain from topics like "what if x Pokemon had x stats".
 

Finchinator

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So is there a place for this or are we forced to go to Reddit for such things.

Please don't make me go to /r/stunfisk.
The OU discord has an off topic channel and is more casually oriented in general, so perhaps that could be a good place for more theoretical discussions. We try to keep this thread in-line with the current metagame whenever possible!
 
Right now, I’m curious why Ribombee is nowhere to be seen in the (preliminary) viability charts. Too frail now, or something else? (At least Araquanid, whom I prefer anyway for the resilience, got on there.) Mostly me wanting to get a sense of how many ways there currently are to start a Sticky Web + other hazards team.
 
Right now, I’m curious why Ribombee is nowhere to be seen in the (preliminary) viability charts. Too frail now, or something else? (At least Araquanid, whom I prefer anyway for the resilience, got on there.) Mostly me wanting to get a sense of how many ways there currently are to start a Sticky Web + other hazards team.
Shuckle is often a better sticky web setter thanks to sturdy which allows it to run other items (like mental herb) rather than forced to run sash like rimbombee. Additionally it has access to stealth rock for double hazards, and encore to avoid being setup bait. Araquanid has a niche in its access to magic coat to deflect hazards. Ribombee only gets to suicide lead and is powerless to stop hazard removal/setting, even shuckle can final gambit on the remover's switch in.
 
What is everyone's experience with Trick Room? Teleport Bro + Duck are neat and Marowak is heavily buffed. There's also Hatterne who blocks hazards and is a functional OTR Pokemon. Losing Z moves and hidden power really hurts but I'd say the meta looks nice for Trick Room.
 
What is everyone's experience with Trick Room? Teleport Bro + Duck are neat and Marowak is heavily buffed. There's also Hatterne who blocks hazards and is a functional OTR Pokemon. Losing Z moves and hidden power really hurts but I'd say the meta looks nice for Trick Room.
It’s better now, but it’s still largely a gimmick.
Needing to use up 2 turns of Trick Room to have things like Marowak-A or Crawdaunt isn’t as effect speed control as having Excadrill in Sand or Kindra in Rain.
Not only do Sand, Sun, and Rain have the double speed, but they have different affects for teammates, and being summoned immediately makes them MUCH more flexible.
Also Trick Room+Teleport is neat, but means your Slowbro has to endure 2 hits from what ever its facing down.
It’s also pretty bad when a team is effectively dead once their setters are killed.
Like in Rain, Azumarill, Ferrothorn, and Kingdra are still decent Pokemon outside of Rain.
Marowak-A, Hatterene, and Crawdaunt are good outside of Trick Room as well, but only on teams where they have speed control like Dragapult backing them up. If your Trick Roomer(s) faint, then your entire team is screwed, especially when you likely have a negative speed nature with 0 IVs.

The other thing Weather Teams have over Trick Room Teams is that they are not cockblocked by Taunt or just killing.
If you can get Pelipper on the field without dying to Hazards, you will get that last bit of Rain you may need in order to win the match.
With Trick Room, you need to click on Trick Room and Use it, which means your setter is not only vulnerable to Hazards if HDBs was lost, but also just fainting and being taunted (unless you are Hatterene or hold Mental Herb).

Oh, and then there is Priority, when is often forced when using Trick Room, but pretty much negates the whole thing, while priority doesn’t stop Weather’s additional effects.
 
What is everyone's experience with Trick Room? Teleport Bro + Duck are neat and Marowak is heavily buffed. There's also Hatterne who blocks hazards and is a functional OTR Pokemon. Losing Z moves and hidden power really hurts but I'd say the meta looks nice for Trick Room.
TR is ABSOLUTE FUCKING GARBAGE in this metagame. I already ranted on it before, and I'm gonna rant on it again because people keep saying TR is good when it's actually not.

TR has always suffered from the fact that you only have 3 turns to do anything - 1 turn to set up TR and 1 turn to switch out to bring the abusers in. And even then it's hard to make use of those 3 turns because while the abusers (Alolan Marowak, Hatterene) have insane attacking power, bringing them in is near impossible because they aren't that bulky at all. And it's not like we have a lot of pokemon that can take them out in one hit. In the case of Hatterene, it's extremely easy to hard counter it (Chansey says hello once more). Lastly, it's overly reliant on keeping its setters alive, and although the same can be said about weather, at least weather has much more viable abusers. However, the thing about TR's setters is that they're simply too vulnerable to Knock Off, whereas the weather setters are not as vulnerable.

In short, TR has been and will always be trash.
 
How do you guys feel about Scolipede? I think it's a decent set up sweeper and spiker.

I've been using this set with Magnezone support to break Corvikight and Skarmory

Scolipede @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake/Aqua Tail

I run Adamant because after 1 speed boost, you out-speed Dragapult and Zeraora. You will get out-sped by Timid Volcarona, but Scolipede isn't switching into that anyway. At +2 Adamant Life Orb has a surprising amount of power, being able to 2HKO and OHKO a number of defensive mons.


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Tangrowth: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Can't switch into any attack.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 239-282 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Megahorn kills it anyway, but even Earthquake does a minimum of 50.6%.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 300-354 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
- Even if it's not Poison Jab, Clef can't tank any hit well at all

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 617-727 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
- Spikes puts Chansey in OHKO range

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
- One layer of spikes puts quagsire in range of a 2HKO from MegaHorn

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Rhyperior: 359-422 (82.7 - 97.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
- Decent roll to OHKO a niche, but bulky mon

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
- Physically defensive Pex gets put in range by spikes or any attack it switches into

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Amoonguss: 386-456 (89.5 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
- Megahorn also OHKO's Amoongus, but this just shows you how it can't switch in at all.

I don't believe Scolipede is a top tier Pokemon due to you needing an option for Corviknight and Skarmory, but I like how much it can threaten Regenerator mons and some other bulky threats.
 
TR is ABSOLUTE FUCKING GARBAGE in this metagame. I already ranted on it before, and I'm gonna rant on it again because people keep saying TR is good when it's actually not.
Not really... TrickRoom is Ok rn. Not Good but acttually not trash at all.
The big problem i find is the lesser time to do things. I mean Weather as rocks (like smooth rock or heat rock) and Screens has Light Clay increased is time to 8 turns, having a 6 turns over the usual 3.
Like Cuddly say OTR Mons need TrickRoom to work especialy againt HO, but most of the actual abuser are good rn. Magearna, KantoBro and Alowak has a place in the metagame. Hatterene has his niche of being the most viable magic bounce user.
TrickRoom become better with the DLC but didnt mean TR become meta or anything like this. TrickRoom always gonna be antimeta
 
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