Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

[Mob Barley]

Imo urshifu is worthy of a suspect. Its a headache in the builder regardless of the style you’re using. It’s worth noting there’s some comparable wall breakers in the meta like hydreigon. Practically the same tier speed, half same typing but ask yourself how much easier it is to click with urshifu than hydra. The stabs are way more spammable and it’s one of those weird areas where the type chart (and maybe the rock resist) does the work for you. We all know that the one thing that enters on dark/fight is fairy and still urshifu is capable of 2hkoing clef and weezing.

I think urshifu is worth taking a look into further, it’s a menace beyond doubles ;_;

 

[Frank M.]

Against non stall teams, I think Throat Spray Clangorous Soul Kommo is actually super slept on right now. It dismantles offense and even balance builds that rely on clefable to handle standard defensive kommo, since it just gets blown away by plus 2 flash cannon after some chip. Toxapex is definitely an issue for it, but if you take care of toxapex then it really just rips through anything not name Blissey. It also sets up really easily on common mons like Crawdaunt, mandibuzz, zeraora, urshifu. It only really fits on hyper offense, but it is a great check to other hyper offense mons as well as a sweeper itself. It's kinda cheesey, but is a pretty underrated set atm in my opinion.

Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon

I've been using that exact set for a few months now, so I can vouch for its power. It can absoutely shred teams, once chansey/blissey out of the way. If you've got screens up, very little will be able to stop it once its boosted. Clef at full health can live +2 flash and KO with moonblast, tho. Unaware clef stops this dead too.

Pex takes like 70% from +2 clanging scales, but even if it hazes you, it still dies to +0 clanging at that point.

Bulletproof also lets you set up on venusaur because its immune to weather ball and sludge bomb.

 

[OvertoneSeries]

Against non stall teams, I think Throat Spray Clangorous Soul Kommo is actually super slept on right now. It dismantles offense and even balance builds that rely on clefable to handle standard defensive kommo, since it just gets blown away by plus 2 flash cannon after some chip. Toxapex is definitely an issue for it, but if you take care of toxapex then it really just rips through anything not name Blissey. It also sets up really easily on common mons like Crawdaunt, mandibuzz, zeraora, urshifu. It only really fits on hyper offense, but it is a great check to other hyper offense mons as well as a sweeper itself. It's kinda cheesey, but is a pretty underrated set atm in my opinion.

Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon

While flamethrower lets you shred things Corviknight and Ferrothorn easier, I think a mixed set with Close Combat could end up more effective to potentially lure and shred Blissey. There's pros and cons, but here's some calcs.
Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Flash Cannon
- Close Combat
216 speed helps avoid getting flinched by togekiss pre-boost and scarf togekiss post-boost. Naive nature because most of the things that Kommo-o sets up on are physical, as are most priority moves. Max attack is basically there as a proof of concept, you could play around with the balance between the two if you feel like it.

Blissey dies very hard:
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 948-1116 (135.2 - 159.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A lot of the things covered by flamethrower still don't appreciate +1 CC or +2 Clanging Scales:
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 259-306 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 312-368 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 788-930 (218.2 - 257.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 40 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 164-193 (49.1 - 57.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 40 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 205-243 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 40 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 331-390 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Max attack can threaten mixed defensive corviknight:
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Corviknight: 202-238 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Primarina isn't an amazing switchin either:
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 167-197 (46 - 54.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Physdef corviknight ends up as a major issue even with max attack:
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 183-216 (45.7 - 54%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Aegislash is a major problem, especially setup or subtoxic:
+2 40 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 92-108 (35.2 - 41.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The low SpA investment also means +SpD Haze Pex can stop you in your tracks:
+2 40 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

It also means that offensive Volcarona escapes the OHKO, and can set up on you and revenge sweep:
+2 40 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 237-279 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You could fiddle around with the EVs depending on what you think needs more coverage.
Ultimately, Omniboost Kommo-o is going to struggle hard vs fairies no matter how you do, and is very prediction-reliant if against teams with any steel or fairy type - which is to say, most teams - so it's not the most viable option.

 

[DeeJ]

Bulk Up Urshifu-Single is fire in the current metagame. BU isn't anything new but definitely my favorite set because it completely circumvents typical defensive cores made specifically to play around Band
eg

+

,

+X fight resist / water of choice:

,

,

,

,

This Pokemon is lethal in the late game, should you properly overwhelm the switch ins or manage to checkmate the opp, as seen in this vid here live.

Now do I think Urshifu needs to be looked into? No.

Band has a tough time vs Helmet+dark resist and gets abused by faster mons in the tier & opposing Urshi. Like I said, BU can get around these problems but generally can't afford Poison Jab / Iron Head for Clef & Weezing (some people run no fight STAB but that's not optimal imo). Though it's understandable why players want a potential suspect.

Thanks for reading [:

Hide

SAITAMA (Urshifu) @ Black Glasses
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Sucker Punch
- Close Combat
- Bulk Up

 

[ImperialGamer517]

What set are people running on Kommo-o nowadays? I saw a few replays w/ Flamethrower, but I rly wouldn't know where to start with EVs. Weirdly its gone from fringe OU usage to top 4 on babiri.net in like 4 days lol. Also, referring to a more standard set w/ rocks, not one of the set-up sets.

Kommo-o is run on order to check prominent wallbreakers like Rillaboom and the rising Crawdaunt.

 

[The Dragon Master]

View attachment 271278 Bulk Up Urshifu-Single is fire in the current metagame. BU isn't anything new but definitely my favorite set because it completely circumvents typical defensive cores made specifically to play around Band
eg View attachment 271279+View attachment 271281, View attachment 271282+X fight resist / water of choice: View attachment 271283, View attachment 271284, View attachment 271285, View attachment 271286, View attachment 271287

This Pokemon is lethal in the late game, should you properly overwhelm the switch ins or manage to checkmate the opp, as seen in this vid here live.

Now do I think Urshifu needs to be looked into? No.

Band has a tough time vs Helmet+dark resist and gets abused by faster mons in the tier & opposing Urshi. Like I said, BU can get around these problems but generally can't afford Poison Jab / Iron Head for Clef & Weezing (some people run no fight STAB but that's not optimal imo). Though it's understandable why players want a potential suspect.

Thanks for reading [:

Hide

SAITAMA (Urshifu) @ Black Glasses
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Sucker Punch
- Close Combat
- Bulk Up

I actually think that Urshifu is definitely Ban worthy. Yes it is stopped by regen + dark resist or dark resist+ helmet. However how many of these cores have we been seeing recently ? The metagame has evolved around it ,so we don't think it's too good. But let's compare it to dracovish. I don't think many people hate the vish ban . However vish, in its last days was not actually the best mon in the meta because everyone and their mom was running seismitoad JUST to counter it . It dropped off steeply post vish ban so that proves my point . Same here , Urshifu has caused many balanced teams to run cores that shut it down. That's when you notice a mon is unhealthy.

 

[volx757]

I actually think that Urshifu is definitely Ban worthy. Yes it is stopped by regen + dark resist or dark resist+ helmet. However how many of these cores have we been seeing recently . The metagame has evolved around it ,so we don't think it's too good. But let's compare it to dracovish. I don't think many people hate the vish ban . However vish, in its last days was not actually the best mon in the meta because everyone and their mom was running seismitoad JUST to counter it . It dropped off steeply post vish ban so that proves my point . Same here , Urshifu has caused many balanced teams to run cores that shut it down. That's when you notice a mon is unhealthy.

Well the big difference is that seismitoad fell off the face of the earth when vish got banned, whereas almost every mon with regenerator has been OU viable since they got regen, and they will continue to stick around if Urhsifu is banned. Vish was unhealthy because it forced ppl to use a subpar mon, but being forced to use regen or mandibuzz or helmet ferro isn't nearly as bad since they have many other uses as well.

 

[MrHands]

Well the big difference is that seismitoad fell off the face of the earth when vish got banned, whereas almost every mon with regenerator has been OU viable since they got regen, and they will continue to stick around if Urhsifu is banned. Vish was unhealthy because it forced ppl to use a subpar mon, but being forced to use regen or mandibuzz or helmet ferro isn't nearly as bad since they have many other uses as well.

Yeah and this stupid bear forces you to run a Regen + Dark resist combo to not lose a Pokemon every time it comes in. It strangles team building just like Dracovish did. Just because the meta has adapted to something doesn't mean it makes it healthy.

 

[The Dragon Master]

Well the big difference is that seismitoad fell off the face of the earth when vish got banned, whereas almost every mon with regenerator has been OU viable since they got regen, and they will continue to stick around if Urhsifu is banned. Vish was unhealthy because it forced ppl to use a subpar mon, but being forced to use regen or mandibuzz or helmet ferro isn't nearly as bad since they have many other uses as well.

Im not saying that the individual mons will drop off in usage, it's the cores. Stuff like ,say pex will still be just as good if the bear is banned. However Mandi + pex cores will be much less common if urshifu is banned and I believe that it is the reason that those cores are so common.

 

[TPP]

How does everyone feel about Urshifu Single-Strike? I don't know about y'all, but I think it's slowly developed into a headache that could/should be tested. I think it's more noticeable in the builder than in practice because you pretty much need Clefable (one of the few mons that resists both Close Combat and Wicked Blow aside from Heracross and Hawlucha) AND something to sponge hits like Toxapex and Amoonguss. Obviously both Clefable and Toxapex are great mons, but I don't enjoy being forced to run them just to try and handle 1 mon, which may sometimes get past both of them anyways.

Urshifu @ Life Orb
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- Iron Head / Poison Jab / Bulk Up
- Sucker Punch

This set nearly 2HKO's the entire metagame and it has the option to switch moves. Adamant with Life Orb does about 3% less damage than Jolly with Choice Band, but it circumvents the choice lock and lets Urshifu attack freely. It is still very prediction reliant in order to get those 2HKO's, but as a player trying to switch into it, you don't want to be forced to play 50/50's every time this mon comes in for an attack. Cinderace did the same thing with Gunk Shot/Pyro Ball vs. Zen Headbutt, which resulted in most players trying to go Toxapex and then having to win another 50/50 if they got hit by Zen Headbutt. Sure it encourages both sides to play better, but it's also stressful because you have to win 50/50's after attempting to "handle" it in the teambuilder.

The last part I'll touch up on is Sucker Punch. It doesn't do much towards wallbreaking directly, but it is a big part in how you have to deal with Urshifu after it claims a kill. Your main options are sending in a bulky mon that can tank a hit + threaten back (like Clefable), or have a faster offensive mons with at least 70-80% health (like Zeraora). Luckily Heavy-Duty Boots helps Zeraora and offensive mons stay around full, so it makes the 2nd option more feasible. However, should someone have Dragapult, Alakazam, or another offensive mon that is 1HKO'd by Sucker Punch, then the only option is the first one unless you're able to win some 50/50's with Wisp from Pult vs. Sucker Punch from Urshifu.

In my eyes Urshifu started out as a good mon, but has only recently turned into a threat that's a little too much to handle. We still have one more cycle of OLT remaining, so maybe the metagame will develop new countermeasures against Urshifu. If nothing changes, then I think it's not unreasonable to look more closely at seeing whether Urshifu deserves to be tested or not.

Have a nice day.

 

[pokemon111111]

How does everyone feel about Urshifu Single-Strike? I don't know about y'all, but I think it's slowly developed into a headache that could/should be tested. I think it's more noticeable in the builder than in practice because you pretty much need Clefable (one of the few mons that resists both Close Combat and Wicked Blow aside from Heracross and Hawlucha) AND something to sponge hits like Toxapex and Amoonguss. Obviously both Clefable and Toxapex are great mons, but I don't enjoy being forced to run them just to try and handle 1 mon, which may sometimes get past both of them anyways.

Urshifu @ Life Orb
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- Iron Head / Poison Jab / Bulk Up
- Sucker Punch

This set nearly 2HKO's the entire metagame and it has the option to switch moves. Adamant with Life Orb does about 3% less damage than Jolly with Choice Band, but it circumvents the choice lock and lets Urshifu attack freely. It is still very prediction reliant in order to get those 2HKO's, but as a player trying to switch into it, you don't want to be forced to play 50/50's every time this mon comes in for an attack. Cinderace did the same thing with Gunk Shot/Pyro Ball vs. Zen Headbutt, which resulted in most players trying to go Toxapex and then having to win another 50/50 if they got hit by Zen Headbutt. Sure it encourages both sides to play better, but it's also stressful because you have to win 50/50's after attempting to "handle" it in the teambuilder.

The last part I'll touch up on is Sucker Punch. It doesn't do much towards wallbreaking directly, but it is a big part in how you have to deal with Urshifu after it claims a kill. Your main options are sending in a bulky mon that can tank a hit + threaten back (like Clefable), or have a faster offensive mons with at least 70-80% health (like Zeraora). Luckily Heavy-Duty Boots helps Zeraora and offensive mons stay around full, so it makes the 2nd option more feasible. However, should someone have Dragapult, Alakazam, or another offensive mon that is 1HKO'd by Sucker Punch, then the only option is the first one unless you're able to win some 50/50's with Wisp from Pult vs. Sucker Punch from Urshifu.

In my eyes Urshifu started out as a good mon, but has only recently turned into a threat that's a little too much to handle. We still have one more cycle of OLT remaining, so maybe we'll the metagame will develop new countermeasures against Urshifu. If nothing changes, then I think it's not unreasonable to look more closely at seeing whether Urshifu deserves to be tested or not.

Have a nice day.

While I agree entirely with this post (which is great by the way), I firmly believe Toxapex should be the next one on the suspect chopping block. I hope the discussions that were being had about a possible Toxapex suspect before OLT were not in vain and that actually gets followed through since personally it's a bigger problem in the metagame than Urshifu.

 

[Finchinator]

While I agree entirely with this post (which is great by the way), I firmly believe Toxapex should be the next one on the suspect chopping block. I hope the discussions that were being had about a possible Toxapex suspect before OLT were not in vain and that actually gets followed through since personally it's a bigger problem in the metagame than Urshifu.

Toxapex can be an issue and something we discuss while we also discuss Urshifu. TPP’s post was simply bringing another subject up, which is perfectly fine seeing as we are capable of discussing multiple things. After all, this is the metagame discussion thread, not the Toxapex discussion thread.

And this is coming from the guy who began the Toxapex discussion here — the more things to talk about, the merrier.

 

[Katy]

yo,

i think is one of the most metagame-defining pkmn in the tier, which can be clearly seen at how teams are built in the first place apart from offense i would say, since offense has most of the times stuff like rilla + lucha cores anyways to handle stuff like urshifu, more or less.
i think urshifu has a great speed-tier first of all and 2nd of all it has an amazing signature move in wicked blow which always results into critical hit and a strong stab close combat. the coverage options it has are p much the top of the iceberg with havin' iron head or poison jab to bypass fairy pkmn like hatterene and clefable. bulk up adds another top of the top of the iceberg with further strengthening urshifus breaking potential in conjunction with life orb and not being forced into a move which a choice-item does otherwise. i think the black glasses set is also a pretty good set to look further into as this prevents the life orb recoil, and expert belt could be run as well.

the main part i think what pushes urshifu over the top is that you have to run a certain combination of pkmn to sponge and handle this offensive behemoth, i would have been adamant on a possible toxapex suspect test but then i think we will miss out on 1 crucial mon which can sponge a hit or two from urshifu and thus it forces us to run another specific combination of pkmn.

i really think at this point that i would declare urshifu as an unhealthy presence on the metagame since not many mons can sponge the hits and u'll always need a certain combination since 1 mon alone (as example: clefable) could not do it alone.

a few weeks ago mandibuzz + pex where the defensive structures to tank urshifu and now its clef and pex and being restricted into a few (which are not alot of options to begin with) combinations of mons are holding a tight string on the building process because i truly believe, when u dont have a certain combination, u're in a high danger of getting overrun by this very pkmn.

so i at least would not be against that we look deeper into urshifu in the near future.

 

[pokemon111111]

Toxapex can be an issue and something we discuss while we also discuss Urshifu. TPP’s post was simply bringing another subject up, which is perfectly fine seeing as we are capable of discussing multiple things. After all, this is the metagame discussion thread, not the Toxapex discussion thread.

And this is coming from the guy who began the Toxapex discussion here — the more things to talk about, the merrier.

Of course, totally understood. I think there was just a bit of paranoia - for lack of a better word - that Toxapex would get lost in the shuffle. Thank you for clarifying, appreciate it a lot!

 

[ImperialGamer517]

When I said on my first post that Urshifu-S would warp the metagame, I did not think it would be THIS centralizing. Here are some reasons why Urshifu-S needs to be looked into:

1. Stats

Urshifu-S’s make it very scary. Although its SpD looks extremely bad, it has decent 100/100 bulk in HP and Def. What makes Urshifu-S very feared is its high Attack stat and its above average Speed tier. This allows it to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame with ease outside of Dragapult, Hawlucha, Hydreigon, Mew, Volcarona, and Zeraora, while speed tying as well with its other form. This allows it to neatly clean if the opponent’s team has no counterplay.

2. Wicked Blow

This seems to be one of the main reasons why Urshifu shapes the metagame. For me, Wicked Blow could be somewhat broken, since getting a critical hit all the time when you use this move seems a bit unfair and unbalancing.

3. Unseen Fist

Another meta-shaping reason. Unseen Fist completely ignores protection, meaning Toxapex isn’t safe when it uses Baneful Bunker, nor is Aegislash when it uses King’s Shield. This also means that it doesn’t receive the secondary effects of protection moves, such as its Attack stat not getting lowered by King’s Shield.

4. Movepool

Urshifu-S has a wide movepool to help deal with potential threats like Clefable and Togekiss. First, it gets Iron Head which can help against Fairy-types. It gets Poison Jab as well to deal with Grass-types.

This is why Urshifu-S should be looked at.

 

[Anirav]

I would like to see urshifu remain in the tier. Although I understand why a lot of people want it banned due to it's sheer strength and wall breaking power, I feel the tier is healthier with it than without. I know we aren't supposed to form opinions on how the tier will be without a mon but I can't shake the feeling that banning it will only aggravate the already slow pacing of the meta. Stall would likely become the best playstyle (not to say it isn't now but urshifu helps a lot with stall currently). I'm personally not interested in playing 100-150+ turns games everytime. That being said, I'm open to to a suspect as I feel suspect testing is what makes smogon tiers great. In fact, I'd prefer more suspects on questionable pokemon, not just on pokemon which are downright broken.

 

[The Dragon Master]

I would like to see urshifu remain in the tier. Although I understand why a lot of people want it banned due to it's sheer strength and wall breaking power, I feel the tier is healthier with it then without. I know we aren't supposed to form opinions on how the tier will be without a mon but I can't shake the feeling that banning it will only aggravate the already slow pacing of the meta. Stall would likely become the best playstyle (not to say it isn't now but urshifu helps a lot with stall currently). I'm personally not interested in playing 100-150+ turns games everytime. That being said, I'm open to to a suspect as I feel suspect testing is what makes smogon tiers great. In fact, I'd prefer more suspects on questionable pokemon, not just on pokemon which are downright broken.

The argument "broken to check broken" is bad and really should not be used to defend a mon. If thats true then should we allow zacian to be released to make offense unviable? Stall will deal with it just fine. Urshifu is utterly broken with banded wicked blows ripping through everything. The dumb pex is the reason stall is so cancerous right now . It warps the meta around itself so much so that most offensive mons have to have a way of breaking it lest they find themselves utterly useless. Keldeo is a prime example of this. Volcarona runs psychic purely for it. Urshifu is cancer because it forces Balance/stall to run cores exclusively to stop it and pex is cancer because it forces offence to run stuff exclusively to stop it. Both should go, far more ban worthy than cinderace in my opinion.

 

[Anirav]

The argument "broken to check broken" is bad and really should not be used to defend a mon. If thats true then should we allow zacian to be released to make offense unviable? Stall will deal with it just fine. Urshifu is utterly broken with banded wicked blows ripping through everything. The dumb pex is the reason stall is so cancerous right now . It warps the meta around itself so much so that most offensive mons have to have a way of breaking it lest they find themselves utterly useless. Keldeo is a prime example of this. Volcarona runs psychic purely for it. Urshifu is cancer because it forces Balance/stall to run cores exclusively to stop it and pex is cancer because it forces offence to run stuff exclusively to stop it. Both should go, far more ban worthy than cinderace in my opinion.

I don't think you read what I said, I never once said I felt either stall or urshifu was broken. I said I don't expect to enjoy the pacing of the meta without urshifu. Also, I don't think its fair for you to act like what I said is equivalent to adding some random top tier uber pokemon.

 

[MrHands]

I would like to see urshifu remain in the tier. Although I understand why a lot of people want it banned due to it's sheer strength and wall breaking power, I feel the tier is healthier with it then without. I know we aren't supposed to form opinions on how the tier will be without a mon but I can't shake the feeling that banning it will only aggravate the already slow pacing of the meta. Stall would likely become the best playstyle (not to say it isn't now but urshifu helps a lot with stall currently). I'm personally not interested in playing 100-150+ turns games everytime. That being said, I'm open to to a suspect as I feel suspect testing is what makes smogon tiers great. In fact, I'd prefer more suspects on questionable pokemon, not just on pokemon which are downright broken.

Urshifu helps keep stall relevant by making things like Toxapex + Clefable cores common. Urshifu doesn't break stall, stall laughs at it. Urshifu instead forces teams to run stall cores if they want to play around it without either risking 50/50s or running hyper offense. If you don't want a Toxapex / Clefable / Mandibuzz meta then ban the overwhelming offensive threats that make those stall teams so successful.

 

[Midorimemes]

I’m currently of the mind that an Urshifu suspect test is not necessary.
I think back to the suspect test of Hoopa-U in XY, which is probably the most deserved suspecting/ban in the past three generations. Hoopa could run a viable set with each of the three choice items and a mixed LO set. Any time Hoopa came in, the player on defense would have to switch to a counter and hope Hoopa was the correct set that actually gets countered by their defensive Mon. If you’re wrong, you have to make another play to safely check Hoopa (if you’re lucky enough that your initial switch in didn’t die or take 70+%’).

Urshifu is nowhere near this level. A physically defensive Mandibuzz can safely switch in to any Urshifu and force the Urshifu player to make a play, be it a switch or a Bulk Up. At that point, the defensive player has gained a ton of information. If Urshifu bulks up, it’s forced to forgo either Sucker Punch or Iron Head/Poison Jab. This puts the defensive player in a slight advantageous situation where they can make safer plays with less risk (An opponent predicting a Clef switch in once you know they don’t have iron head isn’t Urshifu’s fault).

It’s not my intention to sound confrontational or discredit other arguments, but a lot of posts I’ve read concerning Urshifu seems to be conflating overcentralization with how common certain defensive cores. But, the whole point of defense is to counter offense. Urshifu is one of the best attackers in the tier, so of course Urshifu counters will be high in usage. That would be the case with or without Urshifu; defensive cores will always be built around counters to the most prominent offensive threats. And it’s not like the Mons used to check Urshifu are dead weight in non-Urshifu matchups. Toxapex is being discussed for a suspect test on its own. Mandibuzz can check Rillaboom, Excadrill, some Dragapults (and when’s the last time we’ve played an OU game without any of those 4 offensive threats).

I’m open to counters on any points in my argument that seem weak, so please do. This is one of my first write-ups, so I don’t claim to be all-knowing.

 

[Monky25]

With me I've got mixed opinions about Urshifu. While it does break through stall cores efficiently, I do have to acknowledge that it does encourage the regenrator+dark resist combo we've been seeing. In my opinion I still do believe pex should be acted on first, as i do find it to be the more problematic mon, as urshifu can be exploited if locked into CB or not have enough moves with it's BU set as it either gives up sucker punch or iron head/poison jab, meaning it's either revenged by faster threats or ineffective against clefable. I do believe Urshifu is less of a problem than toxapex and would encourage action on it when OLT ends, but depending on how the metagame develops after the pex suspect Urshifu may very not be a problem, or it could be an unhealthy problem that needs to be looked at afterward. Since I believe pex is the bigger problem and pex is such a key part of the metagame, its very hard to imagine what the tier will be like with Urshifu still legal and pex gone. I wouldn't be opposed to an urshifu suspect if it were to happen right now, as there are a fair number of people who deem it problematic, but i would vote no ban at the current moment

 

[ImperialGamer517]

I would like to see urshifu remain in the tier. Although I understand why a lot of people want it banned due to it's sheer strength and wall breaking power, I feel the tier is healthier with it than without. I know we aren't supposed to form opinions on how the tier will be without a mon but I can't shake the feeling that banning it will only aggravate the already slow pacing of the meta. Stall would likely become the best playstyle (not to say it isn't now but urshifu helps a lot with stall currently). I'm personally not interested in playing 100-150+ turns games everytime. That being said, I'm open to to a suspect as I feel suspect testing is what makes smogon tiers great. In fact, I'd prefer more suspects on questionable pokemon, not just on pokemon which are downright broken.

Absolutely disagree. Urshifu-S has the traits in order to deserve a suspect. Mainly:

1. It restricts team building too much to the point that it limits flexibility of teams. It seems now that every team has to run Urshifu-S pivots rn to stand a chance against this beast.
2. There are minimal Pokémon that can take plenty of Wicked Blows. Almost every top-tier Pokemon (those ranked A- onwards in the VR) except Clefable, Hippowdon, Kommo-o, and Mandibuzz gets either OHKOed or 2HKOed by it. Honestly this reminds me of Dracovish and Fishious Rend before DLC.
3. It has good coverage. If you think Clefable is safe from Urshifu-S, think again. Urshifu-S carries Iron Head. This means it can deal plenty of damage against Clefable and Togekiss.

 

[Negative Charge]

I’m not entirely convinced that Urshifu needs anything to happen to it. Citing Clefable/Pex/Mandi use as some sort of mark against it when they are part of any non-HO build doesn’t hold much water with me (especially when their high use predates Urshifus release)I think it’s quite good to have something that can deal with the fat meta nicely, but that’s just me.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Urshifu threatens the stall metagame. I think that is absolutely wonderful for the current state of OU until something like Toxapex gets banned and the meta moves away from this.

Even still, I find Urshifu can be dealt with quite easily with good good predicts. It's not as centralizing as something like Pex that can cripple you regardless of predicts, as Knock Off/Scald Burn. If it's choiced, then you can just predict what it will use and have the right check for it (Clefable/Togekiss for dark/fighting moves, any steel type really for Iron Head/Poison moves).

I do agree it is one of the predominant offensive threats in the entire metagame, but I wouldn't add it to the chopping block just yet.

 

[Mushfiq]

Urshifu-S is pretty strong but I would say it isn't even close to being broken or unhealthy right now. Because while it does put a lot of pressure and can call upon 50/50s at times, the number of good cores to keep it in check are numerous who are really good on their own and accomplishes a lot besides checking just Urshifu. Toxapex, Tangrowth, Hippo, Clef, Mandibuzz, Amoong are all some of the best Pokemons in the tier right now. They form cores nicely between themselves that automatically keep Urshifu at bay. And if you want even more insurance, a few bit more niche but still good mons in Fat Perish Trap Azu and Galar Weezing exist and are gaining popularity.

Banded Urshifu is never getting past Regen + Dark Resist. LO Urshifu has to win multiple 50/50s to even have a chance, as teams usually have multiple options for initial switch ins (Tang/Pex/Clef are all often used on the same team). Plus, it will be taking a lot of chip damage between LO and Helmet. It's also vulnerable to all status moves and has very common weaknesses in Fighting and Fairy that cuts down it's durability significantly.

The only time I can imagine Urshifu being a problem is when you're team-building and want to check Urshifu defensively against a hypothetical player who has 100% prediction success rate. Of course, it doesn't play out like that in real games and not a good argument for putting a Pokemon on the suspect list.

Absolutely disagree. Urshifu-S has the traits in order to deserve a suspect. Mainly:

1. It restricts team building too much to the point that it limits flexibility of teams. It seems now that every team has to run Urshifu-S pivots rn to stand a chance against this beast.

Urshifu does not force you to use anything new that wasn't already good and widely used. Offense, Bulky Offense, Balance, Stall all have multiple options befitting their play-style to keep Urshifu in check. So the teambuilding restriction makes no sense. And neither does the argument of having to run Urshifu-S pivots. Yes, you need to run pivots/checks for the top threats to be effective. That's how Pokemon works. You won't get anywhere if your team doesn't have an answer to Pokemon like Kyurem, Volcarona, Hydreigon, Dragapult, Rillaboom or any other Pokemon that hits remotely hard. Why should Urshifu-S be treated differently?

2. There are minimal Pokémon that can take plenty of Wicked Blows. Almost every top-tier Pokemon (those ranked A- onwards in the VR) except Clefable, Hippowdon, Kommo-o, and Mandibuzz gets either OHKOed or 2HKOed by it. Honestly this reminds me of Dracovish and Fishious Rend before DLC.

The fact that you had to use such a high cutoff ranking of A- and still got 4 solid options that all have good distinct roles and also checks other key threats invalidates this argument right there. With Vish, you only had Seismatoad which was completely wack other than absorbing Fishious Rends.

Urshifu helps keep stall relevant by making things like Toxapex + Clefable cores common. Urshifu doesn't break stall, stall laughs at it. Urshifu instead forces teams to run stall cores if they want to play around it without either risking 50/50s or running hyper offense. If you don't want a Toxapex / Clefable / Mandibuzz meta then ban the overwhelming offensive threats that make those stall teams so successful.

Um, no. Stall being relevant has nothing to with Urshifu. Stall is strong because of broken ass things like Toxapex and Clefable, which needs to be looked at separately. Regardless, stall shouldn't be in the convo for a Urshifu suspect. What happens after a mon is gone shouldn't affect suspect decisions.