Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry if I sound a little bit nitpicky, but I just wanna point out that error. While Tapu Bulu has lower HP, it has 25 more base points in defense than Rillaboom, which actually means that it takes slightly less damage than Rillaboom on the physical side as you can see here with a Kangaskhan Double Edge as a simple example

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 154-183 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

In terms of special defense, Tapu Bulu is also slightly bulkier than Rillaboom, as these calculations against a Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball will demonstrate

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Also in terms of sustainability Tapu Bulu wins due to having instant recovery in Synthesis and a STAB recovery attack in Horn Leech, which Rillaboom lacks. Therefore Tapu Bulu has more long term and slightly more actual bulk than Rillaboom.

Basically although I do recognize the rest of that argument I just wanted to point out something that was not factual.
Totally true, my b, I didn't do my research first.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
We're going to be making a DLC2 Crown Tundra Speculation Thread in this subforum which you guys can use to discuss the new Pokemon and anything else pertaining to DLC2 Crown Tundra.

This thread will stay open for discussion of the current metagame and just the current metagame, but now we will have a thread dedicated to speculation!

You can find this speculation thread here!
 
is it just me or is sleep even more problematic than knock spam right now? i mean, i'm probably biased because i hate the hell out of the mechanic in the first place, and i honestly would've been glad for the bw sleep ban even if bw sleep mechanics weren't fucked. we've seen how vibrant the bw meta has been for the past few months after all

literally if your opponent has an amoonguss or tang out that you can't kill in one hit, you're sacrificing a mon to sleep. obviously you can't just wake up, the sequence is going to repeat and you're going to take a nap again. that pokemon is dead until the sleep inducer is removed, which isn't easy to do. and then some more turns to actually wake up, which, ugh, just making it a flat two turns would kill this post rn.

the ability for your opponent to consistently do this makes your own defensive counterplay really inconsistent because one mon is constantly dead. pair it with insane breakers across the type and nature spectrum and you're definitely getting overwhelmed. this isn't even mentioning hex.

sleep is "balanced" with how inaccurate it is, which is also terrible. whether it's spore or not, fact is, you have to fear sleep.

it would be made better if we had poison heal mons or any other sleep neutralizers that could actually beat pokeshroom and friends. it really is kind of a similar problem to item disruption spam due to the lack of crystal stones, but i find it worse because for a lot of pokemon at least knock off doesn't totally kill them. honestly, though? even if game freak changed their minds and gave us gliscor, or whatever else we have to better counter it, i would not at all mind the absence of sleep. it's not even like resident vine pile or whatever is bad without it, you can run other status just as easily (like every other defensive mon that wants to run status)
 
is it just me or is sleep even more problematic than knock spam right now? i mean, i'm probably biased because i hate the hell out of the mechanic in the first place, and i honestly would've been glad for the bw sleep ban even if bw sleep mechanics weren't fucked. we've seen how vibrant the bw meta has been for the past few months after all

literally if your opponent has an amoonguss or tang out that you can't kill in one hit, you're sacrificing a mon to sleep. obviously you can't just wake up, the sequence is going to repeat and you're going to take a nap again. that pokemon is dead until the sleep inducer is removed, which isn't easy to do. and then some more turns to actually wake up, which, ugh, just making it a flat two turns would kill this post rn.

the ability for your opponent to consistently do this makes your own defensive counterplay really inconsistent because one mon is constantly dead. pair it with insane breakers across the type and nature spectrum and you're definitely getting overwhelmed. this isn't even mentioning hex.

sleep is "balanced" with how inaccurate it is, which is also terrible. whether it's spore or not, fact is, you have to fear sleep.

it would be made better if we had poison heal mons or any other sleep neutralizers that could actually beat pokeshroom and friends. it really is kind of a similar problem to item disruption spam due to the lack of crystal stones, but i find it worse because for a lot of pokemon at least knock off doesn't totally kill them. honestly, though? even if game freak changed their minds and gave us gliscor, or whatever else we have to better counter it, i would not at all mind the absence of sleep. it's not even like resident vine pile or whatever is bad without it, you can run other status just as easily (like every other defensive mon that wants to run status)
You could always just switch in something that you don't think will be very useful that game to take the sleep, then just let Sleep Clause take care of the rest.
 
is it just me or is sleep even more problematic than knock spam right now? i mean, i'm probably biased because i hate the hell out of the mechanic in the first place, and i honestly would've been glad for the bw sleep ban even if bw sleep mechanics weren't fucked. we've seen how vibrant the bw meta has been for the past few months after all

literally if your opponent has an amoonguss or tang out that you can't kill in one hit, you're sacrificing a mon to sleep. obviously you can't just wake up, the sequence is going to repeat and you're going to take a nap again. that pokemon is dead until the sleep inducer is removed, which isn't easy to do. and then some more turns to actually wake up, which, ugh, just making it a flat two turns would kill this post rn.

the ability for your opponent to consistently do this makes your own defensive counterplay really inconsistent because one mon is constantly dead. pair it with insane breakers across the type and nature spectrum and you're definitely getting overwhelmed. this isn't even mentioning hex.

sleep is "balanced" with how inaccurate it is, which is also terrible. whether it's spore or not, fact is, you have to fear sleep.

it would be made better if we had poison heal mons or any other sleep neutralizers that could actually beat pokeshroom and friends. it really is kind of a similar problem to item disruption spam due to the lack of crystal stones, but i find it worse because for a lot of pokemon at least knock off doesn't totally kill them. honestly, though? even if game freak changed their minds and gave us gliscor, or whatever else we have to better counter it, i would not at all mind the absence of sleep. it's not even like resident vine pile or whatever is bad without it, you can run other status just as easily (like every other defensive mon that wants to run status)
It's interesting (or unfortunate) how sleep is given to the slow regenerators of the tier, which is perfect because it guarantees a turn of sleep on faster mons and lets you swap in your counter without needing to heal. There have been times Amoongus feels like a free KO.

I will mention some additional counterplay though.
- Grass types are immune to Spore / Powder moves. Ferrothorn is perfect for this.
- Overcoat Mandibuzz can switch into Spore / Powder and then Taunt, but fears poison.
- Some niche sets, like Sap Sippers, Magic Bouncers, Trick Orb Clefable, and Flame Conk.

I'm not certain that sleep is busted, especially with DLC2 on the horizon, but it has always been dicey. Having a sleep absorber has been fairly standard in past gens.
 

TPP

is a Tournament Directoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past WCoP Champion
Head TD
September usage stats are here!

Code:
Combined usage for OU (1695 stats)
 + ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
 | Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
 + ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
 | 1    | Clefable           | 36.636% |
 | 2    | Rillaboom          | 31.385% |
 | 3    | Dragapult          | 28.201% |
 | 4    | Urshifu            | 27.519% |
 | 5    | Excadrill          | 26.061% |
 | 6    | Zeraora            | 20.204% |
 | 7    | Volcarona          | 19.219% |
 | 8    | Toxapex            | 18.612% |
 | 9    | Corviknight        | 17.882% |
 | 10   | Magnezone          | 14.449% |
 | 11   | Togekiss           | 13.814% |
 | 12   | Cinderace          | 12.830% |
 | 13   | Hippowdon          | 12.695% |
 | 14   | Mandibuzz          | 12.614% |
 | 15   | Blissey            | 11.387% |
 | 16   | Amoonguss          | 10.995% |
 | 17   | Aegislash          | 10.645% |
 | 18   | Ferrothorn         | 10.555% |
 | 19   | Kommo-o            | 10.025% |
 | 20   | Tyranitar          |  9.987% |
 | 21   | Kyurem             |  9.934% |
 | 22   | Rotom-Heat         |  9.930% |
 | 23   | Skarmory           |  9.207% |
 | 24   | Primarina          |  8.876% |
 | 25   | Azumarill          |  8.407% |
 | 26   | Hawlucha           |  8.375% |
 | 27   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  7.736% |
 | 28   | Tangrowth          |  7.570% |
 | 29   | Toxtricity         |  7.508% |
 | 30   | Crawdaunt          |  7.229% |
 | 31   | Mew                |  6.960% |
 | 32   | Scizor             |  6.264% |
 | 33   | Hatterene          |  6.231% |
 | 34   | Hydreigon          |  5.767% |
 | 35   | Pelipper           |  5.221% |
 | 36   | Jirachi            |  5.125% |
 | 37   | Ditto              |  5.043% |
 | 38   | Alakazam           |  4.817% |
 | 39   | Rhyperior          |  4.772% |
 | 40   | Gengar             |  4.575% |
 | 41   | Torkoal            |  3.656% |
 | 42   | Venusaur           |  3.572% |
 | 43   | Necrozma           |  3.398% |
 | 44   | Weezing-Galar      |  3.387% |
 | 45   | Bisharp            |  2.851% |
 | 46   | Kingdra            |  2.670% |
 | 47   | Mantine            |  2.647% |
 | 48   | Chansey            |  2.541% |
 | 49   | Slowbro            |  2.537% |
 | 50   | Gastrodon          |  2.373% |
 | 51   | Zarude             |  2.330% |
 | 52   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |  2.303% |
 | 53   | Darmanitan         |  2.238% |
 | 54   | Grimmsnarl         |  2.166% |
 | 55   | Cloyster           |  2.161% |
 | 56   | Seismitoad         |  2.149% |
 | 57   | Slowbro-Galar      |  2.024% |
 | 58   | Scolipede          |  1.954% |
 | 59   | Marowak-Alola      |  1.953% |
 | 60   | Conkeldurr         |  1.928% |
 | 61   | Charizard          |  1.919% |
 | 62   | Coalossal          |  1.864% |
 | 63   | Mamoswine          |  1.637% |
 | 64   | Reuniclus          |  1.624% |
 | 65   | Terrakion          |  1.619% |
 | 66   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.597% |
 | 67   | Haxorus            |  1.393% |
 | 68   | Weavile            |  1.376% |
 | 69   | Keldeo             |  1.294% |
 | 70   | Gyarados           |  1.263% |
 | 71   | Diggersby          |  1.207% |
 | 72   | Chandelure         |  1.122% |
 | 73   | Druddigon          |  1.083% |
 | 74   | Dracozolt          |  1.080% |
 | 75   | Quagsire           |  1.050% |
 | 76   | Shuckle            |  1.020% |
 | 77   | Indeedee           |  0.983% |
 | 78   | Krookodile         |  0.947% |
 | 79   | Barraskewda        |  0.938% |
 | 80   | Mimikyu            |  0.917% |
 | 81   | Rotom-Wash         |  0.914% |
 | 82   | Talonflame         |  0.895% |
 | 83   | Starmie            |  0.748% |
 | 84   | Ribombee           |  0.747% |
 | 85   | Incineroar         |  0.736% |
 | 86   | Comfey             |  0.706% |
 | 87   | Xatu               |  0.669% |
 | 88   | Araquanid          |  0.664% |
 | 89   | Scyther            |  0.617% |
 | 90   | Dragalge           |  0.613% |
 | 91   | Durant             |  0.587% |
 | 92   | Porygon2           |  0.561% |
 | 93   | Slowking           |  0.545% |
 | 94   | Porygon-Z          |  0.529% |
 | 95   | Accelgor           |  0.504% |
 | 96   | Snorlax            |  0.466% |
 | 97   | Toxicroak          |  0.457% |
 | 98   | Gigalith           |  0.454% |
 | 99   | Salazzle           |  0.439% |
 | 100  | Arcanine           |  0.418% |
 | 101  | Heracross          |  0.405% |
 | 102  | Ninetales          |  0.402% |
 | 103  | Gardevoir          |  0.392% |
 | 104  | Cobalion           |  0.377% |
 | 105  | Centiskorch        |  0.371% |
 | 106  | Goodra             |  0.356% |
 | 107  | Obstagoon          |  0.349% |
 | 108  | Lucario            |  0.326% |
 | 109  | Vaporeon           |  0.309% |
 | 110  | Sandslash-Alola    |  0.302% |
 | 111  | Klefki             |  0.280% |
 | 112  | Flygon             |  0.280% |
 | 113  | Sylveon            |  0.256% |
 | 114  | Heliolisk          |  0.254% |
 | 115  | Shiftry            |  0.248% |
 | 116  | Golurk             |  0.238% |
 | 117  | Exploud            |  0.237% |
 | 118  | Mienshao           |  0.221% |
 | 119  | Milotic            |  0.219% |
 | 120  | Celebi             |  0.210% |
 | 121  | Polteageist        |  0.209% |
 | 122  | Corsola-Galar      |  0.208% |
 | 123  | Indeedee-F         |  0.206% |
 | 124  | Galvantula         |  0.204% |
 | 125  | Bewear             |  0.201% |
 | 126  | Blastoise          |  0.196% |
 | 127  | Noivern            |  0.191% |
 | 128  | Sirfetch’d         |  0.189% |
 | 129  | Poliwrath          |  0.184% |
 | 130  | Espeon             |  0.176% |
 | 131  | Tentacruel         |  0.175% |
 | 132  | Zoroark            |  0.174% |
 | 133  | Pincurchin         |  0.171% |
 | 134  | Stunfisk           |  0.168% |
 | 135  | Drapion            |  0.167% |
 | 136  | Roserade           |  0.166% |
 | 137  | Inteleon           |  0.159% |
 | 138  | Noctowl            |  0.156% |
 | 139  | Umbreon            |  0.154% |
 | 140  | Eldegoss           |  0.146% |
 | 141  | Bronzong           |  0.143% |
 | 142  | Sandaconda         |  0.140% |
 | 143  | Cinccino           |  0.129% |
 | 144  | Golisopod          |  0.126% |
 | 145  | Palossand          |  0.126% |
 | 146  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.124% |
 | 147  | Avalugg            |  0.123% |
 | 148  | Slurpuff           |  0.118% |
 | 149  | Frosmoth           |  0.116% |
 | 150  | Whimsicott         |  0.112% |
 | 151  | Vikavolt           |  0.104% |
 | 152  | Exeggutor-Alola    |  0.101% |
 + ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
#18 (9.344%) > #10 (14.44%)
Magnezone was a little slow to start, but it's finally being recognized as a big threat in OU. Choice Specs sets are difficult to switch into without Gastrodon, as even Excadrill gets 3-4HKO'd. Iron Defense + Body Press sets are also pretty good for trapping Ferrothorn, and the high Corviknight usage really helps Magnezone see a common target to trap. It's gotten to the point where some Corviknight are using Shed Shell.

#38 (4.705%) > #20 (9.987%)
Tyranitar usage has only gone up since OLT ended. It has officially become a common defensive staple for OU teams that can check Volcarona, Togekiss, and sometimes Kyurem. Tyranitar's increased usage has also increased the number of sand teams overall.

#50 (2.761%) > #39 (4.772%)
Rhyperior is finally OU. It has been performing pretty well as a breaker, both with its Swords Dance and Choice Band sets. It's able to abuse Tyranitar in order to set up, and can frequently do the same against Clefable as well. It has solid bulk alongside its Solid Rock ability that allows it to easily tank a hit from mons like Corviknight and Hippowdon, thus making it a little difficult to KO after it sets up a Swords Dance. Defensively, it also helps with Zeraora, Rotom-Heat and if healthy enough, can take on non-Giga Drain Volcarona.

#44
(3.772%) > #36 (5.125%)
Jirachi was the other mon to rise into OU. I'm honestly not too sure what sets it's been using outside of what I've seen in Snake and OLT (Mixed attacker, Calm Mind/set up sets), so I'll leave this one to everyone else.

OLT Season is Over:

#16 (10.667%) > #32 (6.264%)
#17 (9.595%) > #25 (8.407%)
#34 (5.785%) > #43 (3.398%) (No longer OU)

The above mons all skyrocketed in usage during OLT, and now that OLT is over, their usage is going down pretty quickly. These mons are usually only seen on hyper offense, which is why OLT being over has had a big impact on their usage. Necrozma in particular managed to miss the cut and fall down into UU.

Here are the usual questions:

1. What was the biggest surprise to you this month?
2. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
3. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
6. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
7. What is your favorite mon that saw increased usage this month?
8. How do you feel about the new metagame?
9. Feel free to discuss anything I didn't cover above.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
2. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
I think Magnezone continues being a great pick on a lot of teams. Same as Rhyperior with the choice band-set it really picked up in usage not only during OLT but i also see it outside of OLT as a strong physical Wallbreaker.

7. What is your favorite mon that saw increased usage this month?
I really like that Magnezone gets the usage it deserves, with trapping steel-types like Corv and Skarm it is in a good place alongside its favorite buddy Rillaboom which can handle ground-types really well. Id also wanna adress that the body press-set is picking up in usage as well, which can deal with its enemy Ferrothorn pretty well.

6. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
Urshifu-S is pretty much the only thing as of right now I see as unhealthy and restrictive, being forced to cover it up with a few defensive answers is very overwhelming and oppressive in my eyes.
 

Zneon

uh oh
is a Community Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
2. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?

Other than the stuff that are already in the top ten, I feel Magnezone and Tyranitar are going to consistently be good picks for a while, especially Magnezone, but other than those, stuff like Aegislash and Amoonguss are gonna be great as well, I feel are really good at what they do, Aegislash just breaking stuff really well, and Amoonguss's amazing utility in status spreading, so I feel they will also be great Pokemon moving forward.

3. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?

I don't think Necrozma is actually that good at all, this Pokemon really only viability fits on exclusively hyper offensive teams, and while I do think hyper offense is pretty good right now, I feel the viability of this mon really depends on how well hyper offense does in the meta that it is in, which is bad for it considering that I do not think Necrozma is good enough on its own to warrant a team slot, as such I feel this Pokemon are probably going to drop off completely soon, and rightfully so.

5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?

I don't think Azumarill is that amazing of a Pokemon. I feel Azu is a Pokemon that fits on hyper offensive teams the best and that in my eyes makes it a Pokemon that can easily just drop off in the future, Belly Drum is really the only viable set it can run and I feel teams are prepared to where Azu doesn't get that many consistent setup opportunities outside of hyper offensive teams, I feel its pretty decent right now but I don't think its that amazing of a Pokemon and I feel its going to drop off really soon in my opinion.

6. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?

Black bear is very dumb dumb, I feel that it is really the only Pokemon that I feel is problematic in the metagame right now, its very hard to deal with without any of its limited defensive answers and it is incredibly limiting to teambuilding in my opinion. Outside of Urshifu, I feel the metagame, and teambuilding in general is fairly good.

8. How do you feel about the new metagame?
I think the new metagame is great! It's pretty diverse in the archetypes you see, as you can see literally any archetype and seem to make it work, and I feel that's amazing! I feel its gotten to a point where you can use pretty off the wall stuff that you didn't see that much before or rarely at all, like Choice Band Rhyperior being the big one, as well as AV Reuniclus and Shift Gear Toxtricity, so yeah I don't know about the rest of you guys but I love the new metagame right now.
 
You know it’s getting Flip Turn, right? A pivoting move is a much bigger buff than 25% healing could ever hope to be. I think it outweighs the defog psuedo nerf
Is it really a big buff tho? I'm trying to imagine scenarios in which flip turning out with fini is actually a good play. It's most common splash will be coming in to defog. On the turn it defogs, the opp will go to their fini answer, and then is it going to want to eat a hit from one of its answers (damage it can't heal off in any way since it needs HDB) and drop its longevity, or will you just hard switch as usual?
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Is it really a big buff tho? I'm trying to imagine scenarios in which flip turning out with fini is actually a good play. It's most common splash will be coming in to defog. On the turn it defogs, the opp will go to their fini answer, and then is it going to want to eat a hit from one of its answers (damage it can't heal off in any way since it needs HDB) and drop its longevity, or will you just hard switch as usual?
I apologize ahead of time for mentioning Fini here in this thread, kinda derailing it, but I wanted to address and end it here.

Being able to grab momentum is pretty huge for any Pokémon. You paint the scenario as one in which the Fini user has to Defog 100% of the time while the opponent brings in a Fini check. What is stopping Tapu Fini from just, predicting the switch and pivoting with Flip Turn, grabbing back momentum to the Fini user's team? Isn't that how Pokémon like Tornadus-T, Rotom-W and bulky Defog Landorus-T operated in the past, and they were not seen as bad. Being able to consistently grab momentum with a pivoting move will always be a buff for defensive Pokémon. If you wish to continue, let's go to the Spoiler thread instead.
 
I apologize ahead of time for mentioning Fini here in this thread, kinda derailing it, but I wanted to address and end it here.

Being able to grab momentum is pretty huge for any Pokémon. You paint the scenario as one in which the Fini user has to Defog 100% of the time while the opponent brings in a Fini check. What is stopping Tapu Fini from just, predicting the switch and pivoting with Flip Turn, grabbing back momentum to the Fini user's team? Isn't that how Pokémon like Tornadus-T, Rotom-W and bulky Defog Landorus-T operated in the past, and they were not seen as bad. Being able to consistently grab momentum with a pivoting move will always be a buff for defensive Pokémon. If you wish to continue, let's go to the Spoiler thread instead.
Ok you must see the difference between a pokemon like tornadus-t or landorus-t and tapu fini. I just don't see why you're running tapu fini if not for a defoging pivot, and if you are, it doesn't bring to the table anything close to what the therians do. Does it not have to defog 100% of the time? If that's not the reason its on your team, are you not better off with primarina? Tapu fini is just too much of a do-nothing pokemon in this meta to be worth wasting a pivot slot on.
 
Ok you must see the difference between a pokemon like tornadus-t or landorus-t and tapu fini. I just don't see why you're running tapu fini if not for a defoging pivot, and if you are, it doesn't bring to the table anything close to what the therians do. Does it not have to defog 100% of the time? If that's not the reason its on your team, are you not better off with primarina? Tapu fini is just too much of a do-nothing pokemon in this meta to be worth wasting a pivot slot on.
How have you determined that this mon is "do-nothing" in a meta that doesn't even exist yet lmao
 
How have you determined that this mon is "do-nothing" in a meta that doesn't even exist yet lmao
I was responding to someone else saying it needs to run flip turn, how was that figured out yet either lol. But that was a late night drunk post ha it should be deleted.
 

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
1. What was the biggest surprise to you this month?


Rhyperior strikes me as a very shocking sudden pick, skyrocketing from RU to OU in a single shift, but seeing how good of an offensive Stealth Rock user it is and how good it is at taking advantage of Sand cores facilitated by Tyranitar on top of Rotom-H and Volcarona is fairly unsurprising, given its phenomenal bulk with Solid Rock, and its fearsome breaking abilities backed by Swords Dance. STAB EdgeQuake is still a pretty great combination that shouldn't be underestimated; though, I imagine Rhyperior may lose relevancy soon, as Rock/Ground is, unsurprisingly, a pretty vulnerable type combination in the tier, and I feel it'll eventually catch up with the big rhino because of a possible rise in weather wars which I feel are neigh given the new acclaim of Sand cores.

2. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?


This is a beyond favorable metagame for these 3, and it's unsurprising to me that Magnezone has hit top 10, and that the other 3 continue to be gigantic threats (Rillaboom being 2nd in usage is insane). Magnezone + Rillaboom is an insane core that cannot be understated as to how strong it actually is. Rillaboom has the ability to dance around its walls--like Mandibuzz, Corviknight, and Skarmory--with U-turn, and into Specs Magnezone, which by itself is insanely powerful as a Steel wallbreaker. Specs Magnezone being able to dent nearly everything in the tier (or even Volt out in some cases) creates for a very destructive offensive core with Rillaboom that the tier has a hard time handling from my experience. Whenever I've run Magnezone, though, I actually love running Teleport, which lets it much more readily get away from the few resists to its dual STABs into Rillaboom which can even use them as set-up fodder with SD variants, or maintain momentum with meaty U-turns. I've found Toxapex is a cool compliment to this core as well--particularly, Toxic Spikes and Knock Off variants, which are readily capable of punishing the many switches that the main core is so good at forcing with damage over time.



Urshifu also works well with these guys, but that's because it's Urshifu. Urshifu is in a state right now where handling it is a near impossibility with the many ways of which it is able to be facilitated. I'll explain my full stance on Urshifu in a later passage.



I don't think there's a metagame right now where Clefable isn't going to be top tier. Clefable does Clefable things, and Wishport will always be a valuable asset, however, I've shifted on my stance regarding Wishport, and believe that it's now much more helpful for offensive Pokemon than it is for defensive Pokemon. Compared to the pre-DLC metagame which Dracovish terrorized, the only checks to Dracovish lacked overall longevity, which Wishport Clefable managed to provide in bulk; however, the metagame is filled with a myriad of breakers, all of which have more stable checks, but together are able to win the long term fight thanks to the ability to be kept healthy. Perhaps Clefable is the issue as to why offense is so overbearing as opposed to anything else. Despite whether I'm 100% on this idea or not, I'm pretty sure it isn't regardless.


3. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?


Just let this poor thing drop; it's really, really struggling right now. It's outclassed offensively by Magnezone and Excadrill (the former of which traps it if it isn't faster), and even so, STAB Technician Bullet Punch just isn't that valuable of a niche right now with a much slower metagame. Defensively, i'd much prefer to run Tyranitar as a Special wall, especially since Scizor just doesn't do that great of a job of with its weakness to common breakers outside of Rillaboom. I believe to gain success, it needs to take advantage of Swords Dance in some way, but I think that's a bit of a long shot since I'd much rather use something else overall.



Even with OTL, Hatterene's usage bewildered me from the start. Sure, it's one of the best TR users in the game, it has Magic Bounce, and it's got some merit as a booster, but let's face it: chip damage completely screws this thing over. It's so prone to chip damage that it can be knocked out before it does anything of actual use. On top of that, lacking any kind of reliable recovery, competition with Clefable (and general awkwardness as a Fairy-type due to a neutrality to Dark, which is very bad given Urshifu is a thing), weakness to Ghost-types, and having an unforgivably bad speed tier just makes this thing so much harder to use in execution than it seems on paper. From my experience, the most it's done is deter hazards, but against one of the best Rockers in the tier--Excadrill--Mold Breaker ignores Magic Bounce anyway, and Excadrill batters it with STAB Iron Head. I'm not sure if it's an extreme claim to make, but I feel this thing is somewhat of a noob trap in OU.

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?


Murder dog is a solid offensive pick in the tier and I will die on that hill. However, with it being in BL now, I feel there is a possibility it may be acknowledged in the tier in the coming days. I made a whole post on it a while ago, but to summarize: Tough Claws Accelerock, a 110 speed tier, and Close Combat, alongside the insane coverage it can opt for, makes for a specialized, effective wallbreaker, and provides it with the ability to threaten nearly everything in the tier unless your name is Skarmory or Tangrowth. New access to moves such as Psychic Fangs is godlike for it in the tier too, making Amoonguss, Kommo-o, and Toxapex easier matchups.

Choice Band was pretty ok in its time, but I feel that, given the rate of offense in the tier, that Life Orb Swords Dance will come to rise like it did in UU. Life Orb alone provides Lycanroc with just enough strength for it to be an apt wallbreaker, meaning it doesn't need SD, but if it manages to successfully force a switch or boost behind some screens, handling it is nearly impossible. Being able to swap off moves, though, is huge, and is a huge reason I felt Choice Band sucked. If you offset Swords Dance, Stone Edge is always your play, and Lycanroc can still perform as a pretty good wallbreaker on Balanced Offense squads.

I believe it would run Swords Dance, Accelerock, Psychic Fangs, and Close Combat; I've been running these 4 moves to pretty good success; although, Swords Dance is certainly interchangeable, but it more than offsets the loss of coverage with sheer power.

Here are some relevant calcs without a boost:

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 289-341 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 195-231 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 252-298 (62.3 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Corviknight: 382-450 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-369 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 387-458 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 344-407 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

The rest are somewhat obvious: they die.

Although there's a bit of 4MSS involved against the Clefable and Aegislash matchups, and there's proneness to chip damage, I feel Lycanroc has a lot of potential as a Balanced Offense and Hyper Offense pick and I hope it being sent to BL lets it rise in use.

5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
I think all the relevant Pokemon are pretty well deserving of their acclaim; the only one I would argue is Volcarona, but Volcarona has been making a pretty big showing lately that has been proving me wrong, so I can't really say anything here.

6. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
To be blunt, teambuilding is extremely, extremely stale. I've noticed that whenever I build, I always end up picking from the same circle of the top 10 mons, maybe with a little variation every so often if I want to try something different. It's extremely hard to really experiment, as if you deviate from anything that holds ground in the tier, you will be severely punished by broken offense cores. Every single team I've made in the past month or so has had Toxapex, Clefable, or Mandibuzz, and usually has at least two of those; bonus points for Hippowdon and Corviknight, too. If you want to try something, you have to reinforce it with metagame staples if you want any shot at not getting blown apart, and not only has that made playing a lot less fun, but it's also made teambuilding really bland and samey. It's the same cores and the same archetypes, and there's clearly something going on in the tier that's causing this that I will discuss shortly.

7. What is your favorite mon that saw increased usage this month?


Fun fact: Aegislash is one of my favorite Pokemon, so this overall has a pretty good fit. Aegislash is also one of my favorite Pokemon to use competitively, and that's because of its extremely fun, interesting set options. It had a bit of a fallout with its best answer becoming one of the best Pokemon in the tier for a little bit, but I'm super happy to see it making a comeback. It can do so many things, and it's really fun to use. Nothing much to say other than I'm happy to see it.

8. How do you feel about the new metagame?
It is far too overcentralized, and like I said with the teambuilding section, teambuilding is way too stiff and constrained. I haven't really had much fun with the tier right now; if I'm honest, the main appeal to me was seeing the OTL developments shift the tier and metagame trends. That being said, I think the tier has a ton of potential to become something amazing, but obviously, the centralizing shit needs to be flaired accordingly, which I know it will.

9. Feel free to discuss anything I didn't cover above.


Let's talk about this thing.

I want to first make it abundantly clear that I don't think Urshifu itself is broken. HOWEVER, I believe it is a very troublesome issue in the tier that needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. I made a post on it a while ago, detailing my full thoughts on Urshifu, but to keep it short: it's a problem in the tier because it is far too good as a wallbreaker, and does way too good a job at opening holes to the point where offensive cores become nearly impossible to consistently manage. On top of having to prep for most other top offensive threats in the tier, you have to always have an option for Urshifu, which is able to run two very powerful sets in Bulk Up and Choice Band, both of which severely punish mistakes like no other. Although as a sweeper it might not perform the most consistently, it most certainly is a phenomenal wallbreaker that is super hard to deal with alongside U-turn to dance around its checks.

My problem with Urshifu is my problem with Dracovish (admittedly to a lesser extent), that you need to run certain Pokemon, such as PhysDef Fairies (Clef/Kiss), Mandibuzz, Toxapex, and Hippowdon, to not get mowed down by it and other offensive Pokemon, which is already super hard anyway, as things like Volcarona and Zeraora capitalize on nearly all of them with set-up opportunities and Electric-type STAB/Grass Knot respectively. Teambuilding is extremely constrained with Urshifu in the tier, and although it can certainly be dealt with, it forces far too much prep alongside other offensive Pokemon, and opens too many holes for offensive Pokemon to where I believe it should be next on the tier's hitlist, even if it has options that can consistently deal with it.

thank you for coming to my ted talk
 
Last edited:
1. What was the biggest surprise to you this month?
I really only play OU and barely understand that metagame but, as an outsider looking into other tiers, my answer to this is easily Snorlax dropping to NU. Quick ban aside, I never would have imagined power creep would affect this poor boy so badly.

2. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
Mostly the usual suspects of Clefable, Rillaboom, Dragapult, Zeraora and Toxapex.

3. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
Probably Rapid Strike Urshifu. It's not that it doesn't have a place in OU, it's just not as easy to slap on a team as its darker counterpart. Plus it gets walled by the Pex pretty hard and doesn't wanna be on the receiving end of an all-too-common Grassy Glide.

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
Maybe Gengar. Sure, it's frail with a capital F and still wishes it had Levitate but, on the other hand, its Speed and Special are pretty great, it has STAB Sludge Bomb or Sludge Wave for Rillaboom and Clefable, can set up with Nasty Plot behind a Substitute if it wants to, and while Urshifu-S threatens it, it also has access to Will-o-Wisp and Destiny Bond, so it can neither switch into Gengar nor is it necessarily safe to just remove it without either being burned or taken out with it earlier than it would like. I don't expect it to skyrocket in usage by any means since Dragapult and Mandibuzz exist but, ngl, you could do worse.

6. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
...
8. How do you feel about the new metagame?
Answering both of these at once because they kinda go hand in hand for me. Basically, one really needs some good answers to Rillaboom, Volcarona and Urshifu-S, which is a pain and makes me build more defensively than I'd like but I'll spare y'all from yet another "SS OU is too defensive, ban HDB" shpeal and say I think the player base, myself included, can manage. At the very least, the OU metagame doesn't feel super volatile or too unhealthy to play.
 
Last edited:
1. What was the biggest surprise to you this month?

I didn't expect Rhyperior jumping from RU to OU. Apart from that, Crawdaunt is holding on in the tier for longer than I expected.


2. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?

Dragapult is an extremely fast mixed attacker that is going to be top tier for a while. Ferrothorn and Toxapex won't drop as defensive walls are always welcome and they're two the best. Magnezone's unique niche to trap steel-types is heavily appreciated as long as Corviknight and similars don't disappear from the map (which won't happen).


3. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?

Hydreigon will find it difficult to stay in OU. Mediocre speed and double fairy weakness really hurt. Ditto holds a nice niche but won't rise significantly, the same as Pelipper.

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?

Aurora Veil Alolan Ninetales could eventually rise as a support and anti-rain/sandstorm mon, as well as a possible answer to the upcoming Landorus-T. As Tapus are coming, more fairy checks are bound to be used, so we could see more frequently likes of Scolipede, Escavalier, Galarian Weezing...


5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?

Although not overrated, Skarmory is in general terms inferior to Corviknight and IMO it should see lower usage. With the re-introduction of Tapus, definetely Primarina is dropping as it is a worse Fini. Hopefully, Tapus will help to lower that pink demon called Clefable's usage a bit, and specifically Tapu Bulu will face competition to Rillaboom. If Tapus don't get quickbanned, of course (which won't happen to Fini but I'm not sure with the other ones).


6. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?

I agree that Urshifu-S is really conditioning.



I'm sorry I don't know how to put pokemon icons as I'm new here :bloblul:
 
Now that the current metagame is coming to a close (finally) I felt like sharing one of my favorite techs for HO teams

:bw/mew: @ :Choice-Scarf:
Synchronize
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant
Play Rough
Knock Off
Spikes
Trick / Flare Blitz

The main purpose for using this instead of traditional Mew set is to snipe Dragapult and Urshifu, 2 pokemon who normally deal with Mew.
Play Rough is mainly just for Urshifu since it has a 2/3 chance of an OHKO (Factoring in accuract) for Jolly sets while having a guaranteed kill for Adamant Sets.

Knock Off is a great general move works especially well against Dragapult since it gets rid of Specs which lets Mew survive the following Shadow Ball. It also puts the opponent in a Checkmate position since they either sack Dragapult after the first Knock or switch into another pokemon that loses its item. At that point Dragapult is in range of pretty much all priority moves so Rillaboom or Azumarill can pick it off if the opponent chooses to save it.

Spikes > Rocks for the purpose of multiple layers and HDB makes Rocks mostly outclassed.

The last slot can honestly be anything. Trick can ruin stall mons, Flare Blitz beats Excadrill and Ferro, and there are probably much more potentially viable options.

Jolly definitely needed if you run Flare Blitz so that you outspeed Excadrill after they spin in a lead matchup. The speed tier is much nicer after a Trick as well and scarf Hydreigon or Urshifu can beat Adamant sets. Adamant is still useful though to guarantee an OHKO against Urshifu and maximize general damage.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1199085750-dhlkbl67ngj02ycx3xfp278n7h7k5sopw Recent replay from Fall Seasonal R8
 
Now that the current metagame is coming to a close (finally) I felt like sharing one of my favorite techs for HO teams

:bw/mew: @ :Choice-Scarf:
Synchronize
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant
Play Rough
Knock Off
Spikes
Trick / Flare Blitz

The main purpose for using this instead of traditional Mew set is to snipe Dragapult and Urshifu, 2 pokemon who normally deal with Mew.
Play Rough is mainly just for Urshifu since it has a 2/3 chance of an OHKO (Factoring in accuract) for Jolly sets while having a guaranteed kill for Adamant Sets.

Knock Off is a great general move works especially well against Dragapult since it gets rid of Specs which lets Mew survive the following Shadow Ball. It also puts the opponent in a Checkmate position since they either sack Dragapult after the first Knock or switch into another pokemon that loses its item. At that point Dragapult is in range of pretty much all priority moves so Rillaboom or Azumarill can pick it off if the opponent chooses to save it.

Spikes > Rocks for the purpose of multiple layers and HDB makes Rocks mostly outclassed.

The last slot can honestly be anything. Trick can ruin stall mons, Flare Blitz beats Excadrill and Ferro, and there are probably much more potentially viable options.

Jolly definitely needed if you run Flare Blitz so that you outspeed Excadrill after they spin in a lead matchup. The speed tier is much nicer after a Trick as well and scarf Hydreigon or Urshifu can beat Adamant sets. Adamant is still useful though to guarantee an OHKO against Urshifu and maximize general damage.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1199085750-dhlkbl67ngj02ycx3xfp278n7h7k5sopw Recent replay from Fall Seasonal R8
Alternatively you can also use Dazzling Gleam on Mew, because it always kills Urshifu Dark from full without any SpA investment;
0 SpA Mew Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 348-412 (102 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Alternatively you can also use Dazzling Gleam on Mew, because it always kills Urshifu Dark from full without any SpA investment;
0 SpA Mew Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 348-412 (102 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You need to factor in hindering nature (unless you run Lonely or Hasty) at which point you have a lower chance to get the OHKO (exactly 50%) but without the problem of having a full health Urshifu to contend with if you fail the roll.
 
You need to factor in hindering nature (unless you run Lonely or Hasty) at which point you have a lower chance to get the OHKO (exactly 50%) but without the problem of having a full health Urshifu to contend with if you fail the roll.
I think the implication is that you'd just run a Timid set with special coverage like Psychic or Fire Blast so you don't have to give up on defenses
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
So many broken Pokémon are coming back to OU tomorrow but i want to talk about a different Uber that I don't think is broken at all:

:necrozma-dawn-wings:

Necronala (as ill call it) is a Pokémon with acceptable bulk, a good ability and good offenses. I mean is a box legendary, it has good stats. So why do I think it is garbage?

Well, for starters it has awful speed (77 base), making it only either a slow wallbreaker or a defensive mon. What's more, it has a TERRIBLE defensive typing in Ghost/Psychic, which leaves it with two x4 weaknesses (to very common offensive types in ghost and dark) and only two resistances (to average offensive types in poison and psychic) and admittably two immunities (to normal which is kinda useless and fighting which is good). Not only that, but since it only has Necrozma's movepool it has no good recovery and no way of hitting common dark types like Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Urshifu or the less common Hydreigon. Although I guess no Pursuit does help it, think its huge weaknesses outshine its strengths in my opinion.

TL;DR Necronala is an offensive Pokémon with low speed and horrible typing both offensively and defensively, making it a ghost type that would be outclassed by other ghosts like the omnipresent Dragapult, Aegislash, the less seen Gengar and the incoming Blacephalon, thus making it in my eyes a Pokémon that does not deserve its Uber status by any means (tbh i dont think itd be even ou if it were to drop).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top