Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)

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Does Lando-T make pokemon walled by it unviable largely due to not being able to bypass it? N o
Dude you are wrong here. Never in the history of pokemon has a mon invalidated more other mons than Lando-T. Ok maybe chansey has.

The last thing I wanted to touch on was "you could check all these pokemon with Lando-T instead of with multiple teamslots", because this is quite deceptive. Lando has almost never been anyone's only line of defense against anything. If scarf Lando-T was your only line of defense VS. Lop, Mmaw, and Zard-X, that was very, VERY far from sufficent and you were going to get overwhelmed. Even running Defensive Lando-T as your only line of defense is really questionable, a lot of teams had outs to these things that weren't Lando-T. If I run Toxapex as my only line of defense VS. Specs Keld, Band Azu, and Weavile, I am very likely fine because I'd have to misplay real hard to get a regen tank that is immune to toxic and has 2 forms of recovery with gargantuan bulk overwhelmed.

Basically what I'm saying is, keeping a good chunk of the metagame in check does not make you Lando-T, and it does not make you a net positive.
I agree that pex is not comparable to lando. I mean for one thing lando's offensive presence was S-tier, it's z-move sets being some of the most dangerous and powerful in the game. But yea aside from pex being a pivot and lando being able to run a good pivot set, there's no similarities.


It does not matter if you out-predict your opponent and hit it with an SE move on the switch. It just switches out, regens back 33% health and shrugs off the damage, essentially invalidating skillful play. Thus, it has an unhealthy level of competence of stopping offensive play from the opposing team (Bulk, Regen, Recover, Haze, Knock Off). Clef functioned similarly and was ridiculously broken pre DLC (Though I understand the Council's POV and a significant meta shift arriving soon is a plausible reason to hold off a suspect).
This is not necessarily my view, but I could just as easily argue that Pex promotes more skillful play. Instead of being able to sit back and click attack moves over and over til everything is dead, you're forced to adapt, predict, make double switches. You're mad you didn't win the game after clicking QD once on volc? Tough. It's not gonna be that easy, you will be required to play more skillfully in order to win.

This invalidation argument is not good. Toxapex takes away no agency from it's opponent and doesn't force objectively non-optimal plays. Clearly I'm saying, this is no Arena Trap. This is simply a mon, who may or may not be too powerful for the tier. If pex gets banned, it should be for that very simple reason
 

Martin

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Reading this thread reminded me of something I forgot to mention in my previous post about Toxapex. Gonna put it in hide tags because I do NOT want it to be the main focus of my post.
Controlling the speed at which progress is enforced is probably the most valuable things a Pokemon can bring to the table, and it is something that I feel Toxapex kinda undermines by design. There are all sorts of other Pokemon that are very good at controlling the pace of the game, but I think Toxapex just kinda eclipses just about everything in its ability to make a game grind to a total halt. This isn't to say that it's the only Pokemon that does it—Ferrothorn is a prime example of a Pokemon which has exactly the right toolset to slow a game down to a standstill and force their opponent to play at the pace that it wants to play at for a very long time versus certain brands of balance between the threat of Knock Off/Thunder Wave/Toxic, Spikes pressure, and Leech Seed whittling—but what I think sets Toxapex apart when doing this is that it… kinda does it versus everything. It is very hard to capitalise on a Toxapex's attempts at pace control because absolutely nothing short of Specs Magnezone (and LO Zam, depending on Pex's spread) can one-shot it from full health, hardly anything can both set up in its face and win out consistently between Haze and the potential threat of Scald/Toxic, and anything that can is noticeably less potent without an item, meaning that you're always playing these weird obnoxious guessing games with it while it can just buffer a switch to a Pokemon that can shut whatever it is down, assuming that risk even needs to be taken.
That's enough moaning about Toxapex. Let's talk about some neat Pokemon in the current metagame.

:bw/mamoswine:
Mamoswine capitalises on the ubiquity of Mandi+Pex/Amoonguss(+Hippo) balance really well with its STABs. I've faced a few of these on ladder over the past few weeks and have had a really difficult time reining them in with my bog-standard defensive structures (TY pressure to cover Urshifu -_-) While its offence does have the obvious drawback of relying on Ground-type moves to exert heavy pressure, I feel like it does a good enough job of pressuring common Earthquake responses to condition people into not switching in their Ground immunes between its nuclear Icicle Crash and Knock Off pressure. Obviously doesn't appreciate stuff like Corv and Skarmory but the flipside is that it pairs SUUUPER well with Magnezone and Rotom and other Pokemon that do an exceptional job of pressuring them, and even just forcing them to lose their item goes a long way towards overwhelming them long-term.

:bw/magnezone:
Another Pokemon that these sorts of teams just can't deal with very well short of running [blob]. Analytic attacks hit like a truck, and Magnezone can fairly easily force switches versus stuff like Toxapex and Mandibuzz. Needs to play guessing games if faced with a Hippowdon, and can be switched into once or twice by SpD Excadrill, but aside from that, it's really difficult to stop it just scoring kill after kill, especially considering it can also pivot out with a nuclear Volt Switch if conditions are correct. Really nice 'mon that likes the current meta quite a lot.

:bw/jirachi:
Jirachi fills the defensive hole that Magearna has left to a certain extent, being a good option for easing pressure off versus stuff like non-Shadow Ball Alakazam (very common atm) and threatening to spread around everything from Stealth Rock to Toxic to Body Slam paralysis, healing off teammates with Wish/HW and can even provide momentum with HW/U-turn. You do need to be sorta careful to not leave it overwhelmed defensively, as WishTect isn't exactly ideal and even Focus Blast Zam can brute force it if you let Rachi get down to around 60%, but it pairs well with common options and brings quite a lot of utility to the table alongside it. Nice 'mon.

:bw/scizor:
Another Pokemon that can try to fill the hole left by Magearna. Very good at directly pressuring Alakazam with the threat of Bullet Punch/Knock Off and one-turn recovery unlike Jirachi. Kinda falls flat on its face versus Toxapex though, so it can be very reliant on U-turn while not getting as many opportunities to boost up as it would like. CB is also able to check Zam on a more short-term basis and threatens to OHKO back with Bullet Punch while just dealing "more" with its U-turns (CB U-turn deals the same damage that +2 SpD Scizor's Turn does).
 

Mushfiq

I COULD BE BANNED!
This is not necessarily my view, but I could just as easily argue that Pex promotes more skillful play. Instead of being able to sit back and click attack moves over and over til everything is dead, you're forced to adapt, predict, make double switches. You're mad you didn't win the game after clicking QD once on volc? Tough. It's not gonna be that easy, you will be required to play more skillfully in order to win.

This invalidation argument is not good. Toxapex takes away no agency from it's opponent and doesn't force objectively non-optimal plays. Clearly I'm saying, this is no Arena Trap. This is simply a mon, who may or may not be too powerful for the tier. If pex gets banned, it should be for that very simple reason
You're wrong. No one can click attack moves over and over till everything is dead. You have to predict, make double switches like you said. However, Toxapex takes away the benefit of making those skillful plays by a good extent. Because the Pex user can switch in Pex with their eyes closed, shrug off any predicted attack with Regen or Haze off any stat boosters. Not to mention there are very few mons that beat Pex 1v1, so you have an extremely limited number of options you can actually double switch to. You have things like Tricking it a Scarf but you only get one shot for that, and you have to time it perfectly. So you see, a Pex user can shrug of all these usual methods of dealing with walls without the need for any skill from their end.

If you just watch some high ladder games or tour matches, you'll find the proof of what I'm talking about. Matches end up being Knock Off spam and status trade in hopes of wearing it down in the long run. Even then, an itemless burned Toxapex still has absurd longevity. In the end, it boils down to a PP stall war which Pex usually wins. When a support mon invalidates so many usual skillful ways to get around walls in predicted attacks, double switches, stat boosting, is not possible to wear down via status and thus regularly forces PP stalling to decide the outcome, you know there is something fundamentally problematic here.
 
Although this probably doesn't align with what the council is trying to accomplish, I think we should all keep in mind that the majority of Smogon and Pokemon Showdown players do not play in tournaments regularly. Banning pokemon hastily (ie. Cinderace) and/or stalling on the suspect of controversial mons (ie. Toxapex) does benefit the tournament community, but in the end it is just at the expense of the community as a whole. I still do think Cinderace should've been banned, and I do also believe we should wait a little bit before suspecting Pex, most if not all action should be taken with the wider community in mind, not just the select few who play competitively. I think nearly everyone agrees that, if there was no OLT, Cinderace should've been suspect tested, not quickbanned. Instead, because of OLT, the pokemon was quickbanned. Likely the timeline of what has happened and will happen is that the council suspected Magearna because they had the time before OLT (even though many players thought it should've been quickbanned), Cinderace was quickbanned because the council did not want it to interfere with OLT, Cinderace is re-suspected right after OLT, and found balanced in a broken-checks-broken situation, and everything deteriorates from there. I'm not saying that's where the council wants to go, I'm saying that that's where it looks like we're going if we continue to follow our current course.

I don't want to take away from the council. They are doing a great job trying to balance the metagame, and not getting paid a single cent. All of them have a real life to attend to, and running the metagame is not something easily done on the side. I would just like the previous points to be kept in consideration when deciding when, how, and why to take action on any portion of the meta.
 
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You're wrong. No one can click attack moves over and over till everything is dead. You have to predict, make double switches like you said. However, Toxapex takes away the benefit of making those skillful plays by a good extent. Because the Pex user can switch in Pex with their eyes closed, shrug off any predicted attack with Regen or Haze off any stat boosters. Not to mention there are very few mons that beat Pex 1v1, so you have an extremely limited number of options you can actually double switch to. You have things like Tricking it a Scarf but you only get one shot for that, and you have to time it perfectly. So you see, a Pex user can shrug of all these usual methods of dealing with walls without the need for any skill from their end.

If you just watch some high ladder games or tour matches, you'll find the proof of what I'm talking about. Matches end up being Knock Off spam and status trade in hopes of wearing it down in the long run. Even then, an itemless burned Toxapex still has absurd longevity. In the end, it boils down to a PP stall war which Pex usually wins. When a support mon invalidates so many usual skillful ways to get around walls in predicted attacks, double switches, stat boosting, is not possible to wear down via status and thus regularly forces PP stalling to decide the outcome, you know there is something fundamentally problematic here.
I mean you've basically agreed with everything I said, and then drawn different conclusions that aren't really relevant to the issue at hand.

You claimed that Pex "invalidates skillful play," and that's simply not true. A player who plays skillfully against toxapex will perform better than one who plays without skill. Melmetal is an example of something that invalidates skillful play. It has the bulk to just toss into play whenever you feel like it, and the power to kill basically anything once its in.

Like I said in my original post, I'm undecided on pex at this point, but I know that the 'invalidates skillful play' argument does not work here. It is not so brainless that you can play pex like a dumbass and still come out on top against a skilled opponent. Basically your argument boils down to that you don't like stalling or being stalled.

There are many valid arguments supporting pex's unhealthy effect on the tier, this is not one of them.
 
All those mon listed would have been 6-0'ed by Cinderace good thing Urshifu S can pressure those builds just fine as well.
Actually, Toxapex handles Cinderace pretty easily. Just eat one Zen Headbutt, use scald, then switch out to regen HP. If you got burn the first time, then it's GG Cinderace. If you didn't, then you just need to repeat that process two more times to KO the bunny. Corviknight can also eat one Pyro Ball and do pretty decent damage back to it.

Urshifu also has a similar problem against Toxapex. But Clefable also handles Urshifu pretty easily.
 
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Its kinda late here so sorry if theres too much grammar/spelling mistakes and all that stuff :,3

So I've been using T o x a p e x in a Toxic Spikes stall team with some moldy cheesy teammates like rest + sleeptalk shuffler Kommo-o and Hex + Will o Wisp Utility Mew ((((the pros of being low ladder trash :,3)))

Toxapex has survived hits like I´ve never thought It would survive, even by the skin of its theeht, putting TSpikes, so that the harzard removal/boots mon has to come, scald burn, haze off the boost, or just recovering so that Pex can escape, the defensive utility it brings to the table is just something magical

Do you know those times where Mega Mawile or Mega Medicham came into the battlefield and just "Clicked moves" untill you win/lose
Toxapex is the same in this gen, just in a defensive aproach

Damage/burns/Wasting time? Use Scald
Expect to take a big hit? Recover and swicht out
Wanna put mental strees into the oponnent? Click a Toxic move
Utility time? Haze/Knock Off depending what do you have
With Regenerator, you can even make progress by just running away

Yeah, you are killing nothing, but your oponnent knows that he must make akward plays that you can take advantage on (unless you are bad... like me) and the dead of those poor cripled mons will be because of t h e p e x

+ theres this psicologycal factor about fighting against pex that slows time and suddenly your time to relax is becoming more and more tiring and suddenly you are making unnecesary plays because your brain is melted at this point, is almost like Toxapex is stalling YOU out, and it gets funnyer if you think about it that way because the nature of this mon and everything around it matches perfectly with its signature ability: Merciless

I would rather see a suspect of Urshifu Single Strike first (Like, Dracovish made pex run max def, was banned, 2 weeks of spdef for Kyurem, and suddendly its using max def again because Nesquick Greninja and Crit Weeaboo Ursaring go brrrrr lmao)

but I think Toxapex can arguably be the best mon of the meta right now, its not quickban worthy at all, but I think it deserves to be "explored"if you know what I mean
 
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So what y’all think of Corviknight/Kyurem/Clefable/Toxapex + two fillers so far?

Isn’t laddering fun??? :puff:
Oh yeah, I've seen a few that went something like
chansey-clef
pex-ferro
+two offensive mons (zera/pult/shifu)

The "im playing stall but trying to pretend im not" style team.

Hmmmmmm. If only we had a strong, fast offensive mon that could break all of these fat mons...
 
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So what y’all think of Corviknight/Kyurem/Clefable/Toxapex + two fillers so far?

Isn’t laddering fun??? :puff:
Or you could just not be a pussy and run a Crawdaunt or one of the many, many, many Pokemon that sweep that standard shit. Sub Swords Dance Tentacruel 6-0s that boring garbage. Or Sigilyph, or Reuniclus, or... (etc)

Seriously the meta has existed for three days. Take some time to figure shit out before crying about standardization.
 
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From what I've seen so far during OLT, I think Rillaboom deserves a major spotlight after both its checks/counters were banned.



Rillaboom (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Superpower / High Horsepower
- Grassy Glide

Rillaboom is now becoming a staple for HO teams due to its absurd usefulness with Grassy Glide and performs well to revenge kill. Superpower is there to bait in its common wall in Ferrothorn and Mandibuzz (2HKO) . High Horsepower can be used for Toxapex (tho +2 LO Grassy Glide is a 2HKO barring burns and Haze lol). If Excadrill has no HP investment, it can be OHKO'd from full with Grassy Glide.

Grassy Surge gives mons weak to EQ more reliable support for HO to set up and start going bonkers (Volc, Gengar, Magnezone, the list goes on). Overall, Rillaboom is a top-tier mon right now, and once the meta develops more, expect this beast to stick around for a while.
 
Or you could just not be a pussy and run a Crawdaunt or one of the many, many, many Pokemon that sweep that standard shit. Sub Swords Dance Tentacruel 6-0s that boring garbage. Or Sigilyph, or Reuniclus, or... (etc)

Seriously the meta has existed for three days. Take some time to figure shit out before crying about standardization.
bro have fun getting walled by a toxapex clicking the haze button lmfao
 
bro have fun getting walled by a toxapex clicking the haze button lmfao
Bro please run some calcs before dissing these stallbreakers

0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-174 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 218-260 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Reuniclus Calm Minds on the switch, run 48 speed EVs to outrun pex, and 2HKO. Alternatively, take the chance. there's a chance 2HKO even with black sludge and all you need to do is win a singular calm mind vs. psyshock 50-50 and you've got yourself a dead Pex.

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 156-187 (51.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Bro please run some calcs before dissing these stallbreakers

0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-174 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 218-260 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Reuniclus Calm Minds on the switch, run 48 speed EVs to outrun pex, and 2HKO. Alternatively, take the chance. there's a chance 2HKO even with black sludge and all you need to do is win a singular calm mind vs. psyshock 50-50 and you've got yourself a dead Pex.

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 156-187 (51.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I did run all the calcs but didn't find it relevant to point out everything except the tentacruel thing cause that made me laugh so hard I couldn't breathe. But the implication is that you aren't switching pex into those things, that's what your other pivots are for. Actually even if you do switch it in theres a non negiable chance that pex can still cripple your mon and get out able to come back in healthly and ready to cripple more mons and if pex is already in....well everyone has already explained the issue
 
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If I’m being honest with this metagame as I’m playing OLT, I haven’t enjoyed this meta or any meta from this gen. Pre-Dynamax ban meta forced you to run Ditto or Corsola, After Garm was banned and Home was released the meta became stale with the notorious Clef/Corv/Toad balance teams and a handful of broken/borderline broken offensive threats like Zeraora, Kyurem, and Conkeldurr. After Vish was banned and Isle of Armor was release, it was for a while til Mag and Ace got banned to Ubers and it was a time where you where forced to run two Mag answers and Hippo or Rhyperior. The meta became more refreshing, but I have to address the elephant in the room, two of them in fact.

Toxapex
Pex has little to no safe switch ins to it other than Clef who’s still annoyed by the removal of its lefties. Everything in the meta is at risk of being crippled in some way (burnt, poisoned, knock’d) which will make them worse in the long game where Pex excels. Pex forces long tedious games and denies progress like no other defensive mon in the tier. Pex is incredibly difficult to wear down as Recover, and Regenerator give it all the longevity it needs. I won’t pull on it’s tall any further as others in the forum have already voiced similar opinions to me so let’s address the other big issue.

Urshifu
Urshifu is unhealthy for the meta for a similar reason to Vish. Vish forced Toad or water immunities on teams just to avoid getting shredded. In the case of Urshifu, it forces the use of Regen + Mandi or Regen + Clef which while running these cores doesn’t make your team worse, it still puts a restricting effect on tesmbuilding. What’s worse is that Urshifu can still bypass these cores after a bit of chip. Clef risks getting hit with Iron Head which will put it in 2HKO range of Wicked Blow or CC. BU invalidates Mandibuzz as a check and beats Mandi + Regen cores with minimal chip. Unlike other breakers like Daunt, Urshifu has more opportunities to come in due to its great natural physical bulk and resistance to rocks making it harder to wear down, and even harder if there is Wish support. Not to mention it has U-Turn to apply chip and momentum.

Due to these two in particular, I feel like the meta has been reduced to a small bubble, not only cause of the Dexit but also cause of how restrictive Urshifu is when it comes to the teambuilder. I really hope these two receive suspect tests in the future whether during or after OLT.
 
Super casual take based on limited play, but Swords Dance + Scale Shot Haxorus is lookin kinda decent

RNG on your main STAB sucks ass, but you can snowball pretty hard if you get the chance to properly setup
I'd put DD Kyurem in the same position where it's ostensibly a stallbreaker if it's getting more than 2-3 hits on Icicle Spear. That's basically OU in a nutshell; anything that can reliably beat Toxapex is automatically considered banworthy, and when it requires no skill to get reqs while running Toxapex stall it perpetuates itself. If Giratina-A or Lugia were new Pokemon introduced this generation, I don't think you could ban them for defensive purposes if Toxapex isn't considered banworthy. I don't want to get too deep into theorymoning what those Pokemon would run in OU, but Toxapex is better in terms of movepool, typing (Toxic immune and not weak to Wicked Blow), and ability; yeah Giratina and Lugia have higher speed and attacking stats, but it's not like they could do enough to break through the brainless Haze Toxapex sets.
 
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Played for the first time today since the big OU bans earlier this week.

My first impression is.. RILLABOOM. W/ Mag and Cinderace being gone, Wood Hammer + grassy glide are more free than ever before. Of course, Cinderace never wanted to switch into a banded grassy glide even when it was around, but regardless; you no longer have to worry about inviting in Cinderace and having to predict whether your opponent is gonna click pyro ball, gunk shot, or u-turn. Banded adamant Rillaboom w/ Wood Hammer + Grassy Glide + Knock-off/High horsepower + U-turn is a bonafide top tier threat... very few switch-ins to this mon.


I'm curious as to whether Sun is going to be better or worse after these bans? Cinderace was really good w/ sun, but it was also tough to go up against if you were running a sun team as you were making your opponent's Cinderace significantly stronger, and you generally only had Torkoal as a decent switch-in. Also, I felt like one of the several reasons why sun was better over rain was b/c w/ sun you didn't have to run any extra mons other than your sun core to check/pressure Magearna, which is obviously no longer a benefit.
 
Bro please run some calcs before dissing these stallbreakers

0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-174 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 218-260 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Reuniclus Calm Minds on the switch, run 48 speed EVs to outrun pex, and 2HKO. Alternatively, take the chance. there's a chance 2HKO even with black sludge and all you need to do is win a singular calm mind vs. psyshock 50-50 and you've got yourself a dead Pex.

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 156-187 (51.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You calc them with life orbs, now try calcing them while burned or switching into knock off.

Unless you teleport or u-turn something in on the pex switch, these things get more crippled than crippling cringepex itself.

Sigi coming in and getting knocked off (assuming pex doesn't just tank the first hit for the free knock off, then regen or recover spam the damage), looks more like this:

252 SpA Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Sigilyph Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 186-218 (61.1 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sigilyph Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 140-168 (46 - 55.2%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO

Psychic does decent work vs. it, however running psychic over psyshock makes you weak to chansey and blissey, AV users, and Specially defensive clefable. There's also darkshifu and mandibuzz which can switch in with immunity (bar air slash for darkshifu.)

If crawdaunt switches in on scald, or pex scald burns on the turn it SDs, you're looking at this instead:

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 77-91 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If daunt switches into knock off, sets up an SD, and doesn't get burned on the burn fish attempt, we have this:
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Which then pex can live with at least 10%, fish a second time for a burn, and switch out into another tank to deal with the now crippled crawdaunt, while regening its health.
 
You calc them with life orbs, now try calcing them while burned or switching into knock off.

Unless you teleport or u-turn something in on the pex switch, these things get more crippled than crippling cringepex itself.

Sigi coming in and getting knocked off (assuming pex doesn't just tank the first hit for the free knock off, then regen or recover spam the damage), looks more like this:

252 SpA Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Sigilyph Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 186-218 (61.1 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sigilyph Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 140-168 (46 - 55.2%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO

Psychic does decent work vs. it, however running psychic over psyshock makes you weak to chansey and blissey, AV users, and Specially defensive clefable. There's also darkshifu and mandibuzz which can switch in with immunity (bar air slash for darkshifu.)

If crawdaunt switches in on scald, or pex scald burns on the turn it SDs, you're looking at this instead:

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 77-91 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability burned Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If daunt switches into knock off, sets up an SD, and doesn't get burned on the burn fish attempt, we have this:
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Which then pex can live with at least 10%, fish a second time for a burn, and switch out into another tank to deal with the now crippled crawdaunt, while regening its health.
Dang, pex is crazy. You gotta be magic guard if you wanna switch in 100% of the time unharmed, but even then Clef loses to trap pex, which opens a huge hole in your defensive backbone. Literally only Reuniclus works as a 100% switch in. Darn.

One tip I use is to run item-less Reuniclus. Although this does worsen the matchup vs. Pex on the switch in, it does a lot more things for your team, especially if it is stall

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 515-608 (121.4 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 348-411 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 512-606 (120.7 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs.

Marowak-Alola Poltergeist vs. 252 HP Reuniclus: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever


252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 172-204 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

vs.

252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 116-138 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Things like this can make the difference of sweeping or not sweeping, or getting swept by crawdaunt vs. not getting swept, in a different way lefties can. After your explanation, it really pushes me off the fence on whether pex is too powerful. I think many of the community would like to see a suspect on it soon. If it isn't too powerful, the community will recognize that and it won't get banned. I really don't see the harm (OLT, they say....)
 
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I'm curious as to whether Sun is going to be better or worse after these bans? Cinderace was really good w/ sun, but it was also tough to go up against if you were running a sun team as you were making your opponent's Cinderace significantly stronger, and you generally only had Torkoal as a decent switch-in. Also, I felt like one of the several reasons why sun was better over rain was b/c w/ sun you didn't have to run any extra mons other than your sun core to check/pressure Magearna, which is obviously no longer a benefit.
Sun is still good.. Venusaur has few check under sun and Torkoal is a great setter. A mon can go to OU if sun is still played is Charizard. Specs Weather Ball clean 2hko Blissey.
A standart Sun Core i think could be:
Torkoal + Charizard + Venusaur + Blissey + "insert magic guard mon" + filler.
Blissey could run Sunny Day and tp out to your breaker.
The bunny is a great lose but sun team still has stupid breaker in the back
 
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