Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Shaymin Sky]

I think it's pretty obvious and safe to say that pheromosa warrants a quick ban, when I say this I am mainly referring to this set in particular as its by far the best and most broken.
Bug Jesus (Pheromosa) @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Shock Wave

I have played many friendlies with good players and have been laddering around in the 1900's and upper 1800's for the past few days, and even prior to the ban of zygarde and kyub in 1800's this set has gotten me MAJOR success and I'm pretty sure that's because of two reason.
#1. This thing after a qd has essentially 2 defensive checks, Unaware clefable and shedinja.
#2. The damage output unboosted along with a speed unrivaled by almost the entire metagame makes it arguably the best revenge killer in the game, pair that with a potential auto lose setup option and you get a "if I mess up once and they qd I might just lose"

Because of both of these factors pheromosa basically destroys offense and hyper offensive based teams due to its ability to revenge kill so effortlessly and dangerously due to moxie(BuT bEtTeR), and on top of that it also destroys weather based teams due to their limit of defensive tools they can utilize that otherwise could be able to deter Pheromosa. What I mean by that is for lets say rain you are already running pelipper as well as barraskewda and most likely ferrothorn or magearna, the roles on weather teams are so compact you don't have enough space to manage huge threats like pheromosa and usually are just subject to sack a mon go to barra in rain to check it(fun fact if you run timid then you can actually outspeed barraskewda, after a qd and a kill).

Ok so qd pheromosa limits offense and ho, and weather teams badly, well I did say before it does have defensive checks but for stall and semi stall based teams you are essentially always running a clefable thats unaware/spdef tapu fini(defensive takes too much) or a shedinja everytime if you want to have a chance against quiver dance pheromosa. Ditto could work but at the current time IMO finding space for ditto on stall is too difficult. Lastly shock wave at +1 modest does a ridiculous amount to pex so it can't even come in safely to haze because you are just qd on switch, they go pex, you shock wave, they take 80 and haze and they can't heal that back with just recover or else you quiver dance again on their recover and out damage the recover(with enough chip/hazards on pex you can outright kill it).

Pheromosa clearly is over centralising in the current meta and some playstyles outright lose to this pokemon, It's actually to the point where I have seen numerous teams in high ladder use shedinja balance just for pheromosa as well as magearna(ban this thing too it's just slightly worse xerneas but with a better typing). It is also worthy to note that Pheromosa also does well against balance since balance typically lacks the speed control that ho with webs has or weather x2 speed boost has, they usually have to use scarfers that get easily outsped by mosa at +1. It is clear the meta does not have the correct tools to be able to offensively AND defensively manage pheromosa. Really all you have is missing focus blast, scarfers when it isn't boosted, weather mons when it is boosted, shedinja and unaware clef. Some things can tank it a hit at full hp from +1 mosa but with any sort of hazard support there is practically nothing you can do defensively.
===============================================================================================
CALC'S
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 363-428 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 356-421 (89 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 363-428 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 387-458 (106.3 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this is for an offensive type of magearna but even then most non av magearna's would die anyways because you'd need close to max to really have the roll in your favor to be able to survive somewhat consistently, and that possibility is far gone when rocks are up)

Practically anything that isn't max spdef will get ohkoed with rocks up lol, most of the time you don't even need rocks because literally any sort of 5-10% chip is enough to guarantee it.
===============================================================================================
REPLAY'S
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1226645293-xb05lurss7pqdjbhdtkqv5qtg5vbxh0pw vs Zachary07

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1226294476-4sgz2fasc3tpmyy3c51yfyhgbcsk38vpw vs I liek pink mons

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1226304709 vs myjava

EDIT: forgot to list spdef fini as defensive check to mosa but tbh even then it has no proper recovery so I don't think it would be that consistent due to susceptibility to u turn/hazards/tanking hits chip damage. I also forgot to mention that due to its frailness and life orb, if you have sucker you can very well sack a few mons and go into your ace or urshifu and kill with sucker, even then though its 50/50's between quiver dances and suckers which can be risky especially since most sucker shifu's are banded, and that there is a bit of a lack of sucker mons atm too.

 

[Negative Charge]

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Secret Sword

I have been seeing a good deal of random keldeo on the ladder and this is probably the only viable set. With taunt you can 1v1 things you have no business beating like pex. I have been experimenting a lot with random offensive waters on my team, swapping from suicune to urshifu rapid to keldeo. What I like about keldeo is that useable bulk + a good speed tier + built in mixed coverage. I also randomly faced this set with Life Orb + hydro and it completely fucked my shit up. Keldeo is a bit of a matchup fisher like Volcorona in the sense that there are games you're going to be doing nothing and others its claiming a kill every time it hits the field. Sand Offense in particular gets killed by this set.
also here's another replay of protective pads ushifuR going nuts https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227799731-kijou690gti77ckw87yymk0083q05vupw

ps ban phero + spec

 

[kstiemsma]

#1. This thing after a qd has essentially 2 defensive checks, Unaware clefable and shedinja.

This is more of a niche mon but I was running some stall and wanted another spdef wall that could deal with trapping Heatran so I was playing around with Slowking-Galar, which also happens to check special Pheromosa nicely. I also enjoyed the neutrality to Bug and Electric versus KantoSlows and its Future Sight support. Think its movepool can be optimized and is a niche option but I had a lot of fun with it.
+1 252 SpA Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 103-123 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Future Sight
- Earthquake
- Whirlpool
- Flamethrower

(Note: This post is not to say Phero isn't broken just wanted to shout out my dude)

 

[Chameleon]

Spiritomb is an interesting mon to play around with right now. It brings physical Ghost priority, Trick, and Infiltrator into a meta infested with Spectrier, Pheromosa, and sub sweepers. Poltergeist 2HKOs Clefable, and common ghost checks can be crippled with Trick and / or WoW.

Spiritomb @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Poltergeist
- Trick
- Sucker Punch / WoW

Phero, Spectrier, Clef calcs

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 205-242 (67.6 - 79.8%)
+1 252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 199-235 (65.6 - 77.5%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 183-216 (64.4 - 76%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 258-306 (75.4 - 89.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers

Obviously fringe due to its lacking stats compared to Aegi, but it's been fun to try.

 

[Negative Charge]

I'd also just like to throw in my two cents that I think most snowball abilities are pretty lame and bordering uncompetitive. "win more" abilities mean that most games with spectrier and magearna entail playing extremely conservatively to ensure one kill doesn't spiral into six. I know I will get laughed at but in call of duty you need to get multiple kills to even get minor scorestreaks, let alone something that lets you get more kills. Halo 4 was hated at launch because you could get power weapons teleported to your location for getting minor amounts of kills, wheras in previous games you needed to fight to get to their location on the map (skill). Spec has mewtwo level offenses and special moxie for getting a single kill! I get that Guzzlord is fine but playing the average match in OU where you're facing 2 or more things that you can't allow to get a kill is really tough. Sacking used to be a fundamental part of playing singles, and these abilities really stifle that.

 

[glava222]

I think it's pretty obvious and safe to say that pheromosa warrants a quick ban, when I say this I am mainly referring to this set in particular as its by far the best and most broken.
Bug Jesus (Pheromosa) @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Shock Wave

I have played many friendlies with good players and have been laddering around in the 1900's and upper 1800's for the past few days, and even prior to the ban of zygarde and kyub in 1800's this set has gotten me MAJOR success and I'm pretty sure that's because of two reason.
#1. This thing after a qd has essentially 2 defensive checks, Unaware clefable and shedinja.
#2. The damage output unboosted along with a speed unrivaled by almost the entire metagame makes it arguably the best revenge killer in the game, pair that with a potential auto lose setup option and you get a "if I mess up once and they qd I might just lose"

Because of both of these factors pheromosa basically destroys offense and hyper offensive based teams due to its ability to revenge kill so effortlessly and dangerously due to moxie(BuT bEtTeR), and on top of that it also destroys weather based teams due to their limit of defensive tools they can utilize that otherwise could be able to deter Pheromosa. What I mean by that is for lets say rain you are already running pelipper as well as barraskewda and most likely ferrothorn or magearna, the roles on weather teams are so compact you don't have enough space to manage huge threats like pheromosa and usually are just subject to sack a mon go to barra in rain to check it(fun fact if you run timid then you can actually outspeed barraskewda, after a qd and a kill).

Ok so qd pheromosa limits offense and ho, and weather teams badly, well I did say before it does have defensive checks but for stall and semi stall based teams you are essentially always running a clefable thats unaware/spdef tapu fini(defensive takes too much) or a shedinja everytime if you want to have a chance against quiver dance pheromosa. Ditto could work but at the current time IMO finding space for ditto on stall is too difficult. Lastly shock wave at +1 modest does a ridiculous amount to pex so it can't even come in safely to haze because you are just qd on switch, they go pex, you shock wave, they take 80 and haze and they can't heal that back with just recover or else you quiver dance again on their recover and out damage the recover(with enough chip/hazards on pex you can outright kill it).

Pheromosa clearly is over centralising in the current meta and some playstyles outright lose to this pokemon, It's actually to the point where I have seen numerous teams in high ladder use shedinja balance just for pheromosa as well as magearna(ban this thing too it's just slightly worse xerneas but with a better typing). It is also worthy to note that Pheromosa also does well against balance since balance typically lacks the speed control that ho with webs has or weather x2 speed boost has, they usually have to use scarfers that get easily outsped by mosa at +1. It is clear the meta does not have the correct tools to be able to offensively AND defensively manage pheromosa. Really all you have is missing focus blast, scarfers when it isn't boosted, weather mons when it is boosted, shedinja and unaware clef. Some things can tank it a hit at full hp from +1 mosa but with any sort of hazard support there is practically nothing you can do defensively.
===============================================================================================
CALC'S
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 363-428 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 356-421 (89 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 363-428 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 387-458 (106.3 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this is for an offensive type of magearna but even then most non av magearna's would die anyways because you'd need close to max to really have the roll in your favor to be able to survive somewhat consistently, and that possibility is far gone when rocks are up)

Practically anything that isn't max spdef will get ohkoed with rocks up lol, most of the time you don't even need rocks because literally any sort of 5-10% chip is enough to guarantee it.
===============================================================================================
REPLAY'S
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1226645293-xb05lurss7pqdjbhdtkqv5qtg5vbxh0pw vs Zachary07

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1226294476-4sgz2fasc3tpmyy3c51yfyhgbcsk38vpw vs I liek pink mons

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1226304709 vs myjava

EDIT: forgot to list spdef fini as defensive check to mosa but tbh even then it has no proper recovery so I don't think it would be that consistent due to susceptibility to u turn/hazards/tanking hits chip damage. I also forgot to mention that due to its frailness and life orb, if you have sucker you can very well sack a few mons and go into your ace or urshifu and kill with sucker, even then though its 50/50's between quiver dances and suckers which can be risky especially since most sucker shifu's are banded, and that there is a bit of a lack of sucker mons atm too.

not to say pheromosa isn't very strong, but I do have some points to raise.

First off,Pheromosa is thinner than paper, which makes it a lot harder to actually get a quiver dance off, since you can only reliably get it when you know the opponent will switch out. If you are revenge killing you wont go for a dance because if you do, the thing you were trying to revenge kill just turns around and kills you.

Second, there are actually quite a few offensive pokemon that can take one hit from this set after a quiver dance and then just splatter it because of how bad pheromosa's bulk is, so they can switch in on a dance and ko it. I'll just drop a few of these in descending order of meta relevance, and listing the strongest attack pheromosa can do to them:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 177-208 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 227-269 (70 - 83%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 161-190 (65.1 - 76.9%) (this is a bit shaky with rocks included I agree)
granted pheromosa can try to predict the switch, but a wrong prediction can just ruin you against these mons

Third, a lot of these calcs are worse if the opposing offence team has light screen up, which lets a lot of offensive mons do what i described above, and lets the above described mons switch in much easier

Fourth, even though pheromosa resists dark and fighting priority can still ko it just because of its awful bulk and the fact you will probably take rocks damage, as well as chip yourself with life orb. a lot of these attacks can do just about enough damage to force a 1 for 1 trade with this set after life orb recoil.
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 210-248 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 222-262 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (this also gives rain an out, I think barra still runs jet, but am not sure,also this is without rain up)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 252-299 (89 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 183-216 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (this is without belly drumming mind you, and I know azumarill isn't that popular)

Fifth, while thinking of defensive pokemons and types of teams that pheromosa goes against, I realised this set can't do anything while trick room is up, and cresselia and hatterene are both defensive mons that can deal with this set, with cresselia even being able to easily set up trick room.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 157-186 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 194-229 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (this looks bad but look at the next calc)
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 336-396 (118.7 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this also restores hatterene to practically full health)

Sixth, you are depending on a 70% accurate move a lot of the times, because you need to OHKO and focus blast is much stronger than your other moves, and that can backfire very easily leading phero to just do nothing and get KOd, which is obviously very bad.

I think these in conjunction with some other defensive sets mentioned show that this set is not a no counterplay easy 6-0 sweep.

Again, I don't think it's bad, and it can do great things, but it seems a lot needs to go right for it to clean sweep and a lot can go wrong and there is counterplay and team building options available that aren't just good at checking this set. What I will say that this set really benefits from opponents playing like its the physical pivot set (for example sending out wrong checks or setting up reflect instead of light screen), which enables it some openings which it probably shouldn't get.

In conclusion, while I think phero is very good, and I prolly focused a bit too much on it's negatives in this post,I also think that calling for a quickban is too much, and we generally call for quick bans a bit too easily.

 

[AmourPearlShipper]

I hate Spectrier and its ability. Really wish Pursuit was still a thing - Spectrier would honestly be dogshit if this move existed, even with WoW. I hope it will become more manageable pretty soon though. Hydreigon sounds like a great check to it, especially with that support set I've been seeing around lately.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

not to say pheromosa isn't very strong, but I do have some points to raise.

First off,Pheromosa is thinner than paper, which makes it a lot harder to actually get a quiver dance off, since you can only reliably get it when you know the opponent will switch out. If you are revenge killing you wont go for a dance because if you do, the thing you were trying to revenge kill just turns around and kills you.

Second, there are actually quite a few offensive pokemon that can take one hit from this set after a quiver dance and then just splatter it because of how bad pheromosa's bulk is, so they can switch in on a dance and ko it. I'll just drop a few of these in descending order of meta relevance, and listing the strongest attack pheromosa can do to them:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 177-208 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 227-269 (70 - 83%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 161-190 (65.1 - 76.9%) (this is a bit shaky with rocks included I agree)
granted pheromosa can try to predict the switch, but a wrong prediction can just ruin you against these mons

I agree with your other statements, mosa is very frail and weak to priority and hatt can definitely check it and cress can counter it, but I just wanted to note that all these calcs aren't with modest which is the more viable nature, timid really only helps vs rain while modest secures the kill esp after rocks on all of the calcs mentioned here, just wanted to clear that up because this kind of makes mosa seem weaker than it really is.

 

[glava222]

I agree with your other statements, mosa is very frail and weak to priority and hatt can definitely check it and cress can counter it, but I just wanted to note that all these calcs aren't with modest which is the more viable nature, timid really only helps vs rain while modest secures the kill esp after rocks on all of the calcs mentioned here, just wanted to clear that up because this kind of makes mosa seem weaker than it really is.

yh, of course my bad, modest probably makes it better against a lot of things while nerfing it against some other stuff, like barra in rain or the rare scarf pult(gotta shout that out here, scarf pult works quite great against phero).
I redid the calcs with modest and indeed, ice beam now has a 25% chance of OHKOing spectrier after rocks, the lele and aegislash calc doesn't change that much, and blacephalon has a higer chance of dying with rocks up, but can still survive it with luck.
Just wanted not to make this look like I was trying to manipulate the calcs

 

[wsdfg]

So I've been laddering a lot in this meta (really enjoying it), and I wanted to shout out one of the most criminally underrated and powerful mons in the tier, that being my boy Kyurem.

With Clef being a little less ubiquitous then it was DLC 1 and with Magearna becoming many people's fairy of choice Kyurem has all the tools to put on immense, well, pressure on basically any team that isn't hyper offense or packing spdef Clef or Corviknight (and even then it can still be immensely frustrating to play around). This is the set I've been really enjoying using.
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Substitute

Freeze dry + Earth power is fantastic coverage and most teams don't really have a good answer to it, especially when it's coming off of a modest 130 sp atk stat. A lot of teams rn use Fini or magearna as their dragon check/fairy type, both of which get 2hkoed by Kyurem, and lose when you click Sub on the switch. Though it can struggle to find safe switch ins or sub opportunities against hyper offense, with the exodus of Kyurem Black, hyper offense as a style has been less prevalent giving you plenty of opportunities to scare out common mons, click sub, and go to work, with examples including, Zapdos, Landorus T, Pex, Pelipper, Swampert, or a choice locked Rillaboom. However the real thing that makes this set work is pressure, which lets Kyurem menace fatter teams. Not only does this let you beat things that should check it, like spdef gyro ball Ferro, stone edge, Ttar and choice locked Urshifu (if you get a sub on a switch), but it also lets you pp stall fat staples like like Blissey, non Calm Mind clef, and depending on the set even Corviknight. This means you can often force situations where your opponent has to switch out of a Blissey or Clefable, because they risk losing too much pp on an attacking move, allowing Kyurem to feast on one of their less bulky teammates. I also heavily prefer lefties over metronome because it gives Kyurem far more longevity, allowing it to continue to pivot and threaten the opposing team even if rocks go up late into the game. It also helps make matchups with stuff like Ferro, Clef, and Ttar easier, and metronome loses to wish pass Clefable anyways, as well as losing to the Softboiled Calm Mind set unless you click Freeze Dry on the switch which isn't always advisable. I also think Earth Power is advisable over Icicle Spear at the moment, especially when many people will pivot in a Magearna expecting the standard sub roost set, before taking 60% from earth power. Overall, though it can sometimes struggle to find opportunities to get in safely, especially when rocks are up, Kyurem is an immensely fun and useful mon, especially when paired with defog support and played aggressively.

 

[Wildcat Formation]

Hey, I just wanted to showcase some Pokemon I think have merit in the current metagame.


Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Future Sight
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Bomb

This has been my favorite Pokemon to use over the past week. Galarian Slowking's typing is a bit weird because it doesn't resist many key special attacks, but at least it resists Fairy and more importantly can remove Toxic Spikes being a Poison-type. It's actually a fairly good catch-all pivot vs almost every special attacker in the tier and is able to threaten common cores like Clef + Pex. It can easily beat trendy picks like Calm Mind Tapu Fini and special Pheromosa for example. Its coverage moves are also surprisingly difficult to switch into bar Blissey and other Slowkings. Sludge Bomb covers Fairies; Flamethrower covers Steels, notably Magearna; Hydro Pump "hits" Heatran; and Psychic move hits Pex but I'm running Future Sight since that's the wave.


Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn
- Hex

HexPult was consistently the top offensive Pokemon throughout SS OU, but now it is struggling a little bit with Pokemon like Magearna, Heatran, and Tapu Fini returning. I thought Thunder would be a good option on HexPult since it hits Mandibuzz and Fini for super-effective damage, and you can fish for the paralysis vs Heatran to Hex it later. After some testing I decided on taking Draco off for Will-O-Wisp for a more consistent way to status opposing Pokemon. Plus this was in Zygarde meta where Draco was only doing like 60-65 percent vs SpDef Zyg. It's pretty tough to decide the best 4 moves on HexPult. I'm really curious to see how HexPult evolves in the current metagame and what others think are the best current moves for HexPult. Speed is for Adamant Mosa if anyone was wondering.


Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Teleport
- Sing
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss

A known strategy that people are using to combat Spectrier is pairing Teleport Blissey with Infiltrator Dragapult. There's still some problems with that. Blissey cannot touch Substitute Spectrier without Shadow Ball. That's okay, you have Dragapult, right? Just Teleport into it! But here's the second problem: Dragapult cannot consistently OHKO Spectrier without Specs Shadow Ball, which means you have to run a mediocre Dragapult set in order to handle it. I really wanted to run HexPult, so I found the one move Blissey can use to punish Sub Spectrier outside of Dragapult: Sing (shoutouts Emerald Battle Factory)! Sing goes through Sub, so you can put the ghost horse to sleep, Teleport into Pult, and OHKO it with Hex. I like it over Shadow Ball since it can be useful outside of Spectrier, but I see no use for Sing if Blissey isn't paired with HexPult.


Gonna miss Zygarde to he honest. SS OU is very enjoyable right now and I look forward to see how it develops.

 

[Full_Korbe]

I plead guilty as I like Blissey + Dragapult but what is the problem with Specs Dragapult? It seems a good speed control with a decently powerful Draco Meteor and being able to always put pressure on Spectrier seems a good feat that few Pokemon in the meta are able to. However, I must admit I don't really enjoy having to always have one of Hydreigon / TTar / Blissey / Mandibuzz in my teams (+ Zarude / Obstagoon but I have trouble using them and Urshifu is frail) but I guess we will find new ways to deal with Spectrier.
I think a dual Ghost-core with Spectrier + Dragapult can put some heavy pressure especially with status + Hex (HexPult + Spec Spectrier for instance). You do need something to deal with all the aforementioned counters and other stuff that can be annoying but it seems quite powerful.

 

[robofiend]

Obstagoon a bit underrated for its utility as a spectrier check imo. It's the only thing that really truly block Wisp+Hex, and actually benefits from its presence in the metagame.

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

Since ban of most the most broken Legenderies, the pokemon that truly apreciates the current metagame is Rillaboom. Simply put, It is probably best or second best choice band user with Urshifu. Even if sheer breaking power goes to Urshifu, acceas to knock off and better priority makes Rillaboom just as easy to slap on a team. It loves that metal birds are no longer as prelevant and that every team must run a ground type (and I mean Must). While elemental birds can status it, especially Moltres with its on contact burn, you still need to gamble your Moltreses boots in return. And that is not certain result, and even if you burn Rilla, boots for status is not a good trade for the fire bird in long run. And Zapdos just can not stand up to the sheer force of banded wood hammer, while Mandibuzz is just a 2 U-turns away from being torn to shreds by it also.

What makes Rilla especially so good is that it just meshes so well with other offensive threats. While grass is not greatest offensive typing, the sheer force 125 attack wood hammer boosted by choice band+grassy terrain hits most of the things that do not resist it to gen 5 draco meteor level of power. And even things that resist it need to be invested to stand up to it.And even then, it can also replace woodhamer for cc to bait in switches such as Ferrothorn or heatrun to free up your team mates. And whats more, Rilla hits a lot of threats that wall other pokemon for absurd damage, mainly Hippowdon, Tapu Fini,Clef, Slow twins and god damn toxapex.

Rill + Cindarace is especially wicked combo that can only be really stopped by the status from the elemental birds,Mandibuzz, Rocket helmet Garchomp or Torkoal from U turning all over your team. That is not even counting stuff like Nidoking, Urshifu the lord himself (someone ban this thing already) or many future sight users that make already difficult prospect of checking it more difficult.And that is not even counting its sword dance sets, which can pick and chose what can stand up to it. And ability to revenge kill most of top tier threats is also a bonus.

And that is all on top of what Grassy terrain provides. It ruins earthquake users, it gives a lot of pokemon passive recovery by just sending out this pokemon on the field. And what is more, 2 other common terrain setters can not switch into it (Koko and Fini) while it can switch into them somewhat safely. And utility of knock off, which is well documented is just way to much.

Simply put, I belive that Rillaboom is top 15/10 ladder pokemon. The ammount of utility, pivoting potential, revenge killing and breaking power that this beast brings is simply unrivaled.

 

[Shaper Squiddy]

Me and my friend were testing Zamazenta-Crowned with OU teams after hearing it's very bad in ubers, these are the matches we decided to upload. If you also have battles of this sort, please share them in this thread. (Not all of these games have Zama on both teams) The set is a basic agility set with the following EV spread: 200 HP, 252 Attack, 58 Special Defence along with an adamant nature.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228052215
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228060927
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1228063580

 

[Finchinator]

Do not use this thread to post random custom games trying to simulate the hypothetical metagame with it. A three game sample size with some really questionable plays and teams in an unofficial metagame does absolutely nothing here. It is much better to keep discussing as we were and focusing on things in the actual metagame than to play-out the thought experiment in the way outlined in the post above. There is absolutely a lot to discuss when it comes to Zamazenta and Zamazenta-C, but there is a proper way to go about it.

 

[Shaper Squiddy]

Do not use this thread to post random custom games trying to simulate the hypothetical metagame with it. A three game sample size with some really questionable plays and teams in an unofficial metagame does absolutely nothing here. It is much better to keep discussing as we were and focusing on things in the actual metagame than to play-out the thought experiment in the way outlined in the post above. There is absolutely a lot to discuss when it comes to Zamazenta and Zamazenta-C, but there is a proper way to go about it.

Sorry, this was moved here automatically, from the place I was originally putting it. It was just suppose to be a few games that we felt like sharing because of the things we heard. Also that was my first ever post so I'm not 100% sure of everything quite yet, hopefully I'll improve later, but yeah, sorry about that.
Edit: There were more of those, but those were just the ones we actually felt like sharing, since the in first one we did I forgot to set one of the abilities on one of the mons. We basically reset to game 1 after the first few because the first few were not as good.

 

[Armageddonsspike]

Might as well try to answer the usage questions. It was rather surprising to be honest

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?

Clefable being number two in usage. I honestly thought Kyurem would be the second in usage. Blaziken almost dropping to uu is also kind of surprising for me. How far the might have fallen

2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?

Garchomp, which I believe was 26th last time, especially if the very balanced Kyurem gets banned. Since I use it a lot, just after a single scale shot, it puts immense pressure on the enemy with its troll speed. To deal with this, Urshifu would probably rise even more to take advantage of the defense drop and Buzzwole to wall it

3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?

Spectrier and Regieleki. These mons are incredibly limited despite their major strengths. I am surprised that Spectrier is still even in the top ten but since dark or normal types are now an almost absolute must on any team, I believe it would continue to drop

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?

None that I can see at the moment

5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?

Spectrier definitely. As much as I love it, it's presence alone forces people to put a dark or normal type on their team and with both those types being everywhere, it will most likely get less usage since it can barely scratch them at all

6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier?

They're pretty okay for me. It's not like dealing with them is that difficult, for me anyway

7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier?

Really annoying, especially Clefable. Other defensive mons are pretty okay as well but Clefable just straight up pisses me off. I really hate that thing

8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?

So unversatile. Every time you build a team, you have to account for a Zygarde and Kyurem check or counter otherwise those two would run over your team. Spectrier also does the same but not to the same extent

9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?

Scarf Hydreigon. There is no better feeling than seeing a cocky Kyurem thinking it can go for an early dd and sweep only to get nuked back to the giant chasm

chomps can run fire blast, mixed sets do, so buzzwole isnt an issue, and I think a draco bops shifu with rocks and either LO chip + rough skin.

 

[Finchinator]

Sorry, this was moved here automatically, from the place I was originally putting it. It was just suppose to be a few games that we felt like sharing because of the things we heard. Also that was my first ever post so I'm not 100% sure of everything quite yet, hopefully I'll improve later, but yeah, sorry about that.

First off, don't worry and welcome to the forums!

It's honestly fine, but let me help you out a bit here so you gain perspective for the future. This is the metagame discussion thread and it's mainly geared towards discussion of the metagame itself. We have been lax with allowing discussion of potential retests since it's a trendy topic and it was involved with a recent playerbase survey, but:

• A 3 game sample size is not enough to base more conclusions off of and even if a dozen other people did this and played with their friends, it would still be far too small to gain a sufficient sample.
• I totally get that you are new and improving, which is amazing and I look forward to seeing you and others continue to play. However, these games had a lot of turns that may not have had the best judgement displayed on both sides and skewed things.
• There really is not much we gained off of these that we could not gain from simple calcing and discussion which we already have done throughout this thread.
• There's already discussion of various current metagame matters ongoing in this thread.

I am sure that it is overwhelming to navigate this forum as someone that is new and I would love to help you if you had any questions, but I hope it is clear as to why the premise of your first post is unfortunately a bit flawed.

 

[MidnightReaper]

M A G I C B O U N C E
(Get JiGgY wItH iT)

Hatterene

​

Time for another post about me utilizing some non-OU Pokemon in the OU format to some cool results. Today on the table is everyone's favorite Gardevoir Waifu Replacement Giant Hat, Hatterene. With the removal of Mega Evolutions in Gen 8, Magic Bounce lost its best user Mega Sableye, and two of its other best users, Mega Diancie and Mega Absol. So with the departure of those Pokemon, Hatterene has taken the mantle as the best user of Magic Bounce in the game. Why is Magic Bounce important, because just the very knowledge (or lack thereof) of Hatterene's ability automatically applies pressure to your opponent's support Pokemon. Attempting Speed Control with Sticky Webs? It's gonna suck if Hatterene switches in and disrupts the whole flow of your team. Hippowdon trying to apply Toxic to an opposing Pokemon? Good job putting a timer on your physical wall. The possibilities are endless, and it helps that Hatterene is a decent Pokemon in its own right.

Hatterene (F) @ Choice Specs / Expert Belt (I personally prefer Choice Specs, but Expert Belt is fine too)
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nuzzle / Giga Drain / Shadow Ball​

Base 136 Special Attack is nothing to sneeze at, and that's especially apparent if you boost it up further with Choice Specs.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hatterene Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 308-366 (101.3 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hatterene's role with either set is to come in on predicted status/hazard setups, bounce them back, and threaten the opponent out with powerful hard-hitting special attacks. STAB Psychic is a bit wonky as a main attacking move but is super effective on critical Pokemon such as Toxapex, Urshifu-Rapid, Pheromosa, and Buzzwole. Mystical Fire absolutely nukes Ferrothorn and hits Pokemon such as Magearna, Melmetal, Rillaboom, and Excadrill super effectively. It also applies existing pressure to Special Attackers due to the assured Special Attack drop, meaning that Pokemon like Magearna have a harder time setting up. Dazzling Gleam is another fantastic STAB move that nukes Urshifu-Single and the multitude of Dragon and Dark types running around the tier. The last slot is a toss-up dependent on what you need; Nuzzle is great for additional utility that both paralyzes and breaks focus sashes, Giga Drain nukes Swampert, provides additional longevity, and Shadow Ball is great for Ghost-type pressure but the additional damage compared to just hitting with STAB Psychic is negligible in my opinion.

 

[Shaper Squiddy]

First off, don't worry and welcome to the forums!

It's honestly fine, but let me help you out a bit here so you gain perspective for the future. This is the metagame discussion thread and it's mainly geared towards discussion of the metagame itself. We have been lax with allowing discussion of potential retests since it's a trendy topic and it was involved with a recent playerbase survey, but:

• A 3 game sample size is not enough to base more conclusions off of and even if a dozen other people did this and played with their friends, it would still be far too small to gain a sufficient sample.
• I totally get that you are new and improving, which is amazing and I look forward to seeing you and others continue to play. However, these games had a lot of turns that may not have had the best judgement displayed on both sides and skewed things.
• There really is not much we gained off of these that we could not gain from simple calcing and discussion which we already have done throughout this thread.
• There's already discussion of various current metagame matters ongoing in this thread.

I am sure that it is overwhelming to navigate this forum as someone that is new and I would love to help you if you had any questions, but I hope it is clear as to why the premise of your first post is unfortunately a bit flawed.

Ah, I see more now, so yeah I'm new to the forums but not to showdown, with my first few games being a little over five years ago. I've been an avid user of Regigigas for a while now and became a lot more active on showdown right before generation six ended, so yeah maybe in the near future I'll be more active here on these forums with all the gigas buffs making it easier to use on a consistent basis (It hilariously beats stall now). So yeah, good luck to you lot and maybe I'll see you on showdown.

 

[Red Raven]

M A G I C B O U N C E
(Get JiGgY wItH iT)

Hatterene

​

Time for another post about me utilizing some non-OU Pokemon in the OU format to some cool results. Today on the table is everyone's favorite Gardevoir Waifu Replacement Giant Hat, Hatterene. With the removal of Mega Evolutions in Gen 8, Magic Bounce lost its best user Mega Sableye, and two of its other best users, Mega Diancie and Mega Absol. So with the departure of those Pokemon, Hatterene has taken the mantle as the best user of Magic Bounce in the game. Why is Magic Bounce important, because just the very knowledge (or lack thereof) of Hatterene's ability automatically applies pressure to your opponent's support Pokemon. Attempting Speed Control with Sticky Webs? It's gonna suck if Hatterene switches in and disrupts the whole flow of your team. Hippowdon trying to apply Toxic to an opposing Pokemon? Good job putting a timer on your physical wall. The possibilities are endless, and it helps that Hatterene is a decent Pokemon in its own right.

Hatterene (F) @ Choice Specs / Expert Belt (I personally prefer Choice Specs, but Expert Belt is fine too)
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nuzzle / Giga Drain / Shadow Ball​

Base 136 Special Attack is nothing to sneeze at, and that's especially apparent if you boost it up further with Choice Specs.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hatterene Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 308-366 (101.3 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hatterene's role with either set is to come in on predicted status/hazard setups, bounce them back, and threaten the opponent out with powerful hard-hitting special attacks. STAB Psychic is a bit wonky as a main attacking move but is super effective on critical Pokemon such as Toxapex, Urshifu-Rapid, Pheromosa, and Buzzwole. Mystical Fire absolutely nukes Ferrothorn and hits Pokemon such as Magearna, Melmetal, Rillaboom, and Excadrill super effectively. It also applies existing pressure to Special Attackers due to the assured Special Attack drop, meaning that Pokemon like Magearna have a harder time setting up. Dazzling Gleam is another fantastic STAB move that nukes Urshifu-Single and the multitude of Dragon and Dark types running around the tier. The last slot is a toss-up dependent on what you need; Nuzzle is great for additional utility that both paralyzes and breaks focus sashes, Giga Drain nukes Swampert, provides additional longevity, and Shadow Ball is great for Ghost-type pressure but the additional damage compared to just hitting with STAB Psychic is negligible in my opinion.

This thing is even more annoying if it has trick room since it is literally impossible to stop the trick room without killing Hat in one shot. Part of me really wishes it gets banned simply because it is so annoying but I know that it isn't even ban worthy :(

 

[Schpoonman]

M A G I C B O U N C E
(Get JiGgY wItH iT)

Hatterene

​

Time for another post about me utilizing some non-OU Pokemon in the OU format to some cool results. Today on the table is everyone's favorite Gardevoir Waifu Replacement Giant Hat, Hatterene. With the removal of Mega Evolutions in Gen 8, Magic Bounce lost its best user Mega Sableye, and two of its other best users, Mega Diancie and Mega Absol. So with the departure of those Pokemon, Hatterene has taken the mantle as the best user of Magic Bounce in the game. Why is Magic Bounce important, because just the very knowledge (or lack thereof) of Hatterene's ability automatically applies pressure to your opponent's support Pokemon. Attempting Speed Control with Sticky Webs? It's gonna suck if Hatterene switches in and disrupts the whole flow of your team. Hippowdon trying to apply Toxic to an opposing Pokemon? Good job putting a timer on your physical wall. The possibilities are endless, and it helps that Hatterene is a decent Pokemon in its own right.

Hatterene (F) @ Choice Specs / Expert Belt (I personally prefer Choice Specs, but Expert Belt is fine too)
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Mystical Fire
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nuzzle / Giga Drain / Shadow Ball​

Base 136 Special Attack is nothing to sneeze at, and that's especially apparent if you boost it up further with Choice Specs.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hatterene Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 308-366 (101.3 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hatterene's role with either set is to come in on predicted status/hazard setups, bounce them back, and threaten the opponent out with powerful hard-hitting special attacks. STAB Psychic is a bit wonky as a main attacking move but is super effective on critical Pokemon such as Toxapex, Urshifu-Rapid, Pheromosa, and Buzzwole. Mystical Fire absolutely nukes Ferrothorn and hits Pokemon such as Magearna, Melmetal, Rillaboom, and Excadrill super effectively. It also applies existing pressure to Special Attackers due to the assured Special Attack drop, meaning that Pokemon like Magearna have a harder time setting up. Dazzling Gleam is another fantastic STAB move that nukes Urshifu-Single and the multitude of Dragon and Dark types running around the tier. The last slot is a toss-up dependent on what you need; Nuzzle is great for additional utility that both paralyzes and breaks focus sashes, Giga Drain nukes Swampert, provides additional longevity, and Shadow Ball is great for Ghost-type pressure but the additional damage compared to just hitting with STAB Psychic is negligible in my opinion.

I've always run Psyshock so I'm not quite as open to Blobs switching in, any merit to that?

 

[MidnightReaper]

I've always run Psyshock so I'm not quite as open to Blobs switching in, any merit to that?

Honestly, it depends; I personally prefer Psychic because so many Toxapex run Physically Defensive EVs, but if you have more trouble with the blobs I would absolutely prefer Psyshock.

This thing is even more annoying if it has trick room since it is literally impossible to stop the trick room without killing Hat in one shot. Part of me really wishes it gets banned simply because it is so annoying but I know that it isn't even ban worthy :(

Trick Room is absolutely phenomenal, but running that requires formatting your whole team around it which is why I didn't talk about Trick Room in this post.

 

[BreloomBoyBouttaSpore]

A bit late, but ill respond to these.

1. What surprised you the most from these stats?

Definitely clefable being #2.

2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?

Melmetal. Now that it doesnt have to run AV to live earth powers from kyurem, it can run banded or pads without as many negative consequences. Ferros usage sucks for it, but every mon has a counter. Urshifu was number 2 when clef was number 1 in ioa.

3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?

Spectrier. Its good, but people are overprepping for it making it hard to accomplish much with it. Its good they finnaly didnt give a ghost focus blast.

4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?

Tapu Lele. With the zygarde and kyurem-b bans, HO isnt as prevalent. I wouldnt say its serverely underrated, but i think it will rise back up to ou.

5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?

Rain/Sun mons. Their setters arent the best, and ttar is really good against both styles. Sand however has 2 viable options, and i think its good

I wont answer 6, 7 and 8 because the meta is new after the bans.

Yes, after the bans happened its fairly good.