Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

ausma

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Hey all, I hope you're all doing well today! Today, I really want to talk about an archetype that's been rising in usage lately, and something that I've had a lot of fun experimenting with: Rain.

For those unaware, Weather Offense is a form of Hyper Offense that operates in a very unique way, utilizing weather setters to abuse Pokemon with weather-based abilities, such as Chlorophyll/Swift Swim, STABs boosted by weathers, etc.. However, it is an extremely inconsistent playstyle, primarily because it is extremely momentum focused (as per any HO playstyle), and because weathers need to be reset after a period of time, which forces a loss of momentum, and god forbid you go against another weather setter.

Though, I think with the ban of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde, Rain is looking extremely fearsome again for two reasons: the additional, synergistic options, and its optimized matchups. I want to break down each facet of rain, and explore why I think it's starting to become a much more considerable candidate for offensive archetypes in the tier.

Setters



As far as setting goes, Rain has had it pretty good compared to other setters. Pelipper is an incredible facilitator thanks to its awesome access to U-Turn, longevity in Roost, its defensive typing, and its set options. Thanks to having slow U-Turns, it's safely able to get in powerful weather abusers with relative ease, which is further accented thanks to its defensive typing and longevity. Its resistance to Fighting-type moves makes its Pheromosa matchup decent, and an outright immunity to Ground-type moves make it a pretty simple Pokemon to switch-in in many matchups, and as such it is very readily capable of resetting weather.

Politoed isn't anywhere near as good as Pelipper, but it performs decently as a backup setter. Its main niche over Pelipper is its neutrality to Rock-type moves and a resistance to Ice-type moves, letting it more readily combat opposing weather, alongside access to support moves like Encore. It's niche, but it has some merit.

What changed for the setters? The removal of Kyurem-Black, primarily, is notable. Thanks to losing a major threat that could readily press Fusion Bolt and Icicle Spear, Pelipper finds switch-ins considerably easier, and it finds even more opportunities to provide momentum for weather abusers that otherwise struggle to find switch-in opportunities. Kyurem-Black being a premier wallbreaker makes this a prominent buff for Rain teams that depend on being able to reset weather throughout the course of the game.

Abusers



Thanks to the introduction of a shiny new Zapdos with Hurricane and Weather Ball to Rain cores as well as the return of Tornadus-T, the synergy between Rain abusers is the best it's been throughout the entirety of the generation. Zapdos and Tornadus-T are able to lay out incredible pressure to Grass-types and walls like Corviknight that are willing to take on the onslaught of other abusers, and can provide momentum as well to provide ready switch-ins for wallbreakers. Zapdos, specifically, is an incredible addition for its access to STAB Thunder and Hurricane on top of boasting Weather Ball and a great defensive typing for Rain teams to exploit. Tornadus-T boasts a great speed tier and nuclear STAB Hurricanes that many Pokemon struggle to switch into, as well as having access to U-Turn to get in another weather abuser against AV Melmetal and Corviknight. Both can also provide Defog support if necessary.

It also greatly helps that Tangrowth and Amoonguss are fairly overwhelmed in the current metagame. Although they are both smoked by the new, welcome additions to Rain cores, their decrease in usage provides Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and Barraskewda with a much easier time spamming their Water-type STABs that otherwise could be punished by them. Additionally, the advent of Flip Turn for Barraskewda and U-Turn on Urshifu synergizes immaculately with Zapdos and Tornadus-T for those matchup demons readily able to switch into their Water-type STABs. The fact that most Rain abusers are able to gain momentum on possible switchins cannot be understated; it is a godsend.

The elimination of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde are especially monumental for the abusers. Zygarde's neutrality to Water-type moves and its natural bulk allowed for it to spread Glares with extreme freedom, crippling abusers. The one Glare switch-in, Zapdos, is decently checked by Zygarde due to its access to Thousand Arrows and Substitute. Kyurem-Black, as stated, was extremely hard for Rain cores to battle against due to its resistance to Water-type STABs, and the sheer difficulty of switching into its nuclear BoltBeam. In fact, Kingdra was the only abuser on Rain that was able to immediately threaten Zygarde and Kyurem-Black due to its access to Draco Meteor. The implications of these removals are incredibly obvious, as they were some of the more consistent, splashable ways of checking Rain offense. Kingdra appreciates having the pressure of this role lifted from it, especially since Draco Meteor is an exploitable move.

While I'm on the subject, I find Seismitoad to be an underrated threat on Rain currently. As an abuser, its immunity to Electric-type moves is monumental, and it is a great Stealth Rock setter that eases up pressure on Ferrothorn to set hazards, and reduces the momentum loss that comes with switching it in. Its STABs are also very helpful against Melmetal, alongside Sludge Wave to hit Clefable and Tapu Fini harder. I highly suggest giving it a try if you haven't already.

Glues



As far as glues are concerned, they are benefited, but not as much as with the setters and abusers.

Ferrothorn is a mainstay staple on nearly every Rain core thanks to how well it synergizes with Pelipper, however, having pressure eased off of it from having to simultaneously check Zygarde and Kyurem-Black lets it switch in more readily to Rain checks like Rillaboom. Ferrothorn provides a lot of neat utility as well, with access to options such as Leech Seed, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock/Spikes to ease switch-ins and provide long term pressure.

Blissey is a good check to base Kyurem that is able to invite in Fighting-type Pokemon, and gain momentum on them with Teleport. I find Blissey to be pretty cool on Rain currently for this reason, and I think it can definitely perform pretty nicely if you want a bit of Special Defense backbone to your core. Obviously, it likes both Kyurem-Black and Zygarde being gone, as the former tore through it, and the latter used it as setup fodder for Substitute and/or for a boosting opportunity.

---

All in all, I find rain to be an extremely potent form of offense right now, especially with the elimination of Zygarde and Kyurem-Black. It is a genuinely valid archetype right now, and something that you absolutely should keep an eye out for in the builder.

Thanks for reading!
 
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Hey all, I hope you're all doing well today! Today, I really want to talk about an archetype that's been rising in usage lately, and something that I've had a lot of fun experimenting with: Rain.

For those unaware, Weather Offense is a form of Hyper Offense that operates in a very unique way, utilizing weather setters to abuse Pokemon with weather-based abilities, such as Chlorophyll/Swift Swim, STABs boosted by weathers, etc.. However, it is an extremely inconsistent playstyle, primarily because it is extremely momentum focused (as per any HO playstyle), and because weathers need to be reset after a period of time, which forces a loss of momentum, and god forbid you go against another weather setter.

Though, I think with the ban of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde, Rain is looking extremely fearsome again for two reasons: the additional, synergistic options, and its optimized matchups. I want to break down each facet of rain, and explore why I think it's starting to become a much more considerable candidate for offensive archetypes in the tier.

Setters



As far as setting goes, Rain has had it pretty good compared to other setters. Pelipper is an incredible facilitator thanks to its awesome access to U-Turn, longevity in Roost, its defensive typing, and its set options. Thanks to having slow U-Turns, it's safely able to get in powerful weather abusers with relative ease, which is further accented thanks to its defensive typing and longevity. Its resistance to Fighting-type moves makes its Pheromosa matchup decent, and an outright immunity to Ground-type moves make it a pretty simple Pokemon to switch-in in many matchups, and as such it is very readily capable of resetting weather.

Politoed isn't anywhere near as good as Pelipper, but it performs decently as a backup setter. Its main niche over Pelipper is its neutrality to Rock-type moves and a resistance to Ice-type moves, letting it more readily combat opposing weather, alongside access to support moves like Encore. It's niche, but it has some merit.

What changed for the setters? The removal of Kyurem-Black, primarily, is notable. Thanks to losing a major threat that could readily press Fusion Bolt and Icicle Spear, Pelipper finds switch-ins considerably easier, and it finds even more opportunities to provide momentum for weather abusers that otherwise struggle to find switch-in opportunities. Kyurem-Black being a premier wallbreaker makes this a prominent buff for Rain teams that depend on being able to reset weather throughout the course of the game.

Abusers



Thanks to the introduction of a shiny new Zapdos with Hurricane and Weather Ball to Rain cores as well as the return of Tornadus-T, the synergy between Rain abusers is the best it's been throughout the entirety of the generation. Zapdos and Tornadus-T are able to lay out incredible pressure to Grass-types and walls like Corviknight that are willing to take on the onslaught of other abusers, and can provide momentum as well to provide ready switch-ins for wallbreakers. Zapdos, specifically, is an incredible addition for its access to STAB Thunder and Hurricane on top of boasting Weather Ball and a great defensive typing for Rain teams to exploit. Tornadus-T boasts a great speed tier and nuclear STAB Hurricanes that many Pokemon struggle to switch into, as well as having access to U-Turn to get in another weather abuser against AV Melmetal and Corviknight.

It also greatly helps that Tangrowth and Amoonguss are fairly overwhelmed in the current metagame. Although they are both smoked by the new, welcome additions to Rain cores, their decrease in usage provides Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and Barraskewda with a much easier time spamming their Water-type STABs that otherwise could be punished by them. Additionally, the advent of Flip Turn for Barraskewda and U-Turn on Urshifu synergizes immaculately with Zapdos and Tornadus-T for those matchup demons readily able to switch into their Water-type STABs. The fact that most Rain abusers are able to gain momentum on possible switchins cannot be understated; it is a godsend.

The elimination of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde are especially monumental for the abusers. Zygarde's neutrality to Water-type moves and its natural bulk allowed for it to spread Glares with extreme freedom, crippling abusers. The one Glare switch-in, Zapdos, is decently checked by Zygarde due to its access to Thousand Arrows and Substitute. Kyurem-Black, as stated, was extremely hard for Rain cores to battle against due to its resistance to Water-type STABs, and the sheer difficulty of switching into its nuclear BoltBeam. The implications of these removals are incredibly obvious, as they were some of the more consistent, splashable ways of checking Rain offense.

While I'm on the subject, I find Seismitoad to be an underrated threat on Rain currently. As an abuser, its immunity to Electric-type moves is monumental, and it is a great Stealth Rock setter that eases up pressure on Ferrothorn to set hazards, and reduces the momentum loss that comes with switching it in. Its STABs are also very helpful against Melmetal, alongside Sludge Wave to hit Clefable and Tapu Fini harder. I highly suggest giving it a try if you haven't already.

Glues



As far as glues are concerned, they are benefited, but not as much as with the setters and abusers.

Ferrothorn is a mainstay staple on nearly every Rain core thanks to how well it synergizes with Pelipper, however, having pressure eased off of it from having to simultaneously check Zygarde and Kyurem-Black lets it switch in more readily to Rain checks like Rillaboom. Ferrothorn provides a lot of neat utility as well, with access to options such as Leech Seed, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock/Spikes to ease switch-ins and provide long term pressure.

Blissey is a good check to base Kyurem that is able to invite in Fighting-type Pokemon, and gain momentum on them with Teleport. I find Blissey to be pretty cool on Rain currently for this reason, and I think it can definitely perform pretty nicely if you want a bit of Special Defense backbone to your core. Obviously, it likes both Kyurem-Black and Zygarde being gone, as the former tore through it, and the latter used it as setup fodder for Substitute and/or for a boosting opportunity.

---

All in all, I find rain to be an extremely potent form of offense right now, especially with the elimination of Zygarde and Kyurem-Black. It is a genuinely valid archetype right now, and something that you absolutely should keep an eye out for in the builder.

Thanks for reading!
Thanks for an amazing post about rain! I'll bookmark this for sure when I want to build it.

I guess if I had a personal concern, it's that on paper sure you could argue how rain beats full stall, but I haven't seen it done so in practice and I've observed more rain gettin overwhelmed by pex/bliss/clef, toxic & tspikes, & knock off spam.
 

shadowpea

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i would just like to add that dragonite also has a lot of defensive utility; it's immune to ground, quad resist grass, and resists fighting, fire and water attacks. Multiscale also allows it to easily tank pretty much any neutral or 2x super effective move once (and even some weaker ice moves).

The set i'm currently using on a stall team:

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

This set uses extreme speed to revenge kill frail setup sweepers that would otherwise threaten the more passive members of my team, since extreme speed does enough damage to KO a lot of frailer pokemon with very small amounts of chip damage, and multiscale allows it to tank some very strong hits, so it can soak a hit from a glass cannon mon and probably kill it in retaliation. Since there are no boosting moves on this set, i run adamant to reduce the amount of chip it takes for espeed to KO, and max hp evs to ensure best mixed bulk.

This set can also infinitely switch on magma storm taunt heatran that can abuse my more passive mons, and then either KO it with earthquake, or reset its multiscale with roost, depending on whether I read the heatran will stay in or switch. Resetting multiscale with roost in general is very nice when you can get away with it, as it lets you tank much mor during the course of a game.

As was said this thing has awesome coverage combined with a meaty attack stat, and can often surprise enemies who don't guess what coverage is packing. It actually surprised me how often, with a little chip situations arose where dragonite for example espeed kills an enemy pheromosa, then they send out a steel type which dies to earthquake, and they try to send in something like lando-t that folds to ice punch, and I have seen this set straight sweep like 5 pokemon on a decently chipped team. Also this combination of moves enables to, with some prediction, even break through zapdos; you can chunk it with ice punch, predict a roost with earthquake which brings it into eSpeed range if it was not in very good health after the roost (of course this works much better if the opponent doesn't know what exact moves you are running).

What I've found that dragonite struggles against anything that can preemptively break it's multiscale, like knock off it's boots or weathers that deal damage, but the worst things are poison and burn, especially burn as it massively reduces both it's damage and survivability. Because of that, pokemon which can heal bell are really good partners. This specific set also like to have a partner that can deal with spectrier, as it can't be revenge killed by eSpeed.

tldr; dnite nice, can take hits well and give out hits, also this is my first post, so sorry if i wrote a bunch of bogus.
Yep, agreed! Multiscale is a nice defensive ability, and with defensive sets that only requires roost (no Dragon Dance necessary) this thing can pack some mean coverage. I run offensive DD sets with Heal Bell Blissey and I can see that combination fitting even better on stall because... it's Blissey... in stall.

The thing with Magma Storm Taunt Heatran, though, is that if Magma Storm hits it breaks Multiscale every turn it's active and prevents Dragonite from switching out, which leaves the opponent free to send something like Latios with Multiscale down. So it's not to advisable to switch Dragonite into that particular Heatran. Lava Plume varients are food, though (unless Lava Plume scores a burn, but that's why we have Heal Bell Blissey, isn't it?).

Overall, nice first post! Much better than my first post lol. Welcome to Smogon! (though Finchinator should be one that's saying this :mehowth:)

By the way, nice posts from Ausma and SeveroM about rain and Barra respectively. Much more detailed than the one I did yesterday lol. Rain is fun!
 
Yep, agreed! Multiscale is a nice defensive ability, and with defensive sets that only requires roost (no Dragon Dance necessary) this thing can pack some mean coverage. I run offensive DD sets with Heal Bell Blissey and I can see that combination fitting even better on stall because... it's Blissey... in stall.

The thing with Magma Storm Taunt Heatran, though, is that if Magma Storm hits it breaks Multiscale every turn it's active and prevents Dragonite from switching out, which leaves the opponent free to send something like Latios with Multiscale down. So it's not to advisable to switch Dragonite into that particular Heatran. Lava Plume varients are food, though (unless Lava Plume scores a burn, but that's why we have Heal Bell Blissey, isn't it?).

Overall, nice first post! Much better than my first post lol. Welcome to Smogon! (though Finchinator should be one that's saying this :mehowth:)

By the way, nice posts from Ausma and SeveroM about rain and Barra respectively. Much more detailed than the one I did yesterday lol. Rain is fun!
thanks :D

I would just like to offer a counterpoint to the heatran point, magma storm is only active while tran is in, and tran absolutely can't stay in on an eq nite, so if you can predict whether the switch will happen or not you can either end with a dead tran on their team, or your multiscale intact (this does lose you some tempo, but it's better than tran trapping your blissey, and on stall you can sometimes afford to lose tempo). also, the beauty of nite is that things that can hurt it usually can't switch into it lightly (depending on the set of course), so if they bring latias from the example in and I predict that I can go for an ice punch into eSpeed, which will KO it before it can do anything. In general i'd say that there aren't a lot of mon that can switch in safely, and also bring a lot of tempo to the opponent (clefable or ferro can switch in safely but they dont immediately turn the tempo game around). I actually find lava plume to be worse to switch in, because I can't overstate how much burn sucks, but I also play this set on a team with blissey so I don't need to switch dnite into lava plume tran cuz she handles that easy peasy.

Of course, this might not be foolproof and depends on the predictions, but I just wanted to explain my rationale here, not to sound argumentative, so sorry if I come off too defensive :D.

EDIT: just did the calc and realised that i don't even really need to predict ice punch if i roost to restore multiscale

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-375 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (modest has 43% chance to ohko)

so i can just ice punch after latios and then espeed (dam that dnite chonky tho). Of course i dont mean it will always be latios, just want to show how bulky dnite with max hp invest and multiscale is
 
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1605810891884.png


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Protective Pads
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch

I am excited to see some real viability for this item in Gen 8 (Blaziken can run it too). I think Urshifu Rapid can most viably run it on rain, but it can work on other builds as well. There's not a ton of Tangrowth or Amoongus running around so you can get away with this coverage. There's an insane amount of rocky helmet and rough skin/iron barbs floating around so you are sure to proc the pads at least once a game. Is this set beating Buzzwole? Nah but there's lots of ferro pex cores you can annoy with this set. You're also ignoring flame body and static which is awesome. You have 24 chances to paralyze Pex so it is possible to 1v1 it. Here's an okay replay demonstrating how often my Urshifu would have died if not for this item - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227131611-4x8nomkk1i247rs8bdcywa5c9uvho55pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227799731-kijou690gti77ckw87yymk0083q05vupw - six hits on a static zapdos no probelm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227846309-da0obgq5kdc8tqn603ne6xnjb6k11wepw
 
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Perish Song

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:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
 
View attachment 292709

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Protective Pads
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch

I am excited to see some real viability for this item in Gen 8 (Blaziken can run it too). I think Urshifu Rapid can most viably run it on rain, but it can work on other builds as well. There's not a ton of Tangrowth or Amoongus running around so you can get away with this coverage. There's an insane amount of rocky helmet and rough skin/iron barbs floating around so you are sure to proc the pads at least once a game. Is this set beating Buzzwole? Nah but there's lots of ferro pex cores you can annoy with this set. You have 24 chances to paralyze Pex so it is possible to 1v1 it. Here's an okay replay demonstrating how often my Urshifu would have died if not for this item - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1227131611-4x8nomkk1i247rs8bdcywa5c9uvho55pw
What's the point of this set? Protective Pads help you stay alive versus walls with Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs, but as you can obviously see in this replay you are unable to break through anything. Even an adamant Thunder Punch doesn't break 40% on Pex. It seems like this set just sits there passively as opposing mons Wishpass and set up entry hazards. Protective Pads prevent you from taking chip from walls but in return they just sit on you until their or your PP runs out. At least with Blaziken, Emvee showcased how you can use it to get some gimmicky reversal wins.
.
 
:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
Horse isn’t broken but it’s definitely unhealthy. Too fast and too strong with a snowball ability means that if you don’t want your team to get swept late game the second your fat mon gets burned or chipped you need to run a handful of checks. I think it clearly takes more than it gives to the tier in terms of team building by suppressing use of other offensive ghosts and necessitating use of stuff like mandibuzz or tar to not get swept. Banning it would instantly open up building both offensively and defensively.

What's the point of this set? Protective Pads help you stay alive versus walls with Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs, but as you can obviously see in this replay you are unable to break through anything. Even an adamant Thunder Punch doesn't break 40% on Pex. It seems like this set just sits there passively as opposing mons Wishpass and set up entry hazards. Protective Pads prevent you from taking chip from walls but in return they just sit on you until their or your PP runs out. At least with Blaziken, Emvee showcased how you can use it to get some gimmicky reversal wins.
the thing is even with band you need to make god tier reads and even if you banded tpunch Pex they are just gonna go to ferro next turn. The Pex had helmet, the ferro did too. if you want to use the Urshifu before the endgame without risking suicide, pads is the answer. I would argue this set made more progress more easily than band would have in my linked game.
 
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Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
this thing is clearly unhealthy for the tier and can actually power through dark types and normals depending on the set. it has nasty plot, a snow balling sky high spa, and very high speed so all you really need to do is weaken the shit that can take 2 shadow balls and ur good to go. the games with this mon pretty much rely entirely over not being swept by shadow ball. to the point that even if ur down 6-2, you can still win the game because of how broken this thing is. any type of snowballing effect on the special side of things is going to be a bit ridiculous, which is shown here because it really only runs shadow ball and can finesse past other moves. like on one game I got disabled by this little shit with my normal type, and It legit just nasty plotted to x4 and hit me with mud shot. fucking MUD SHOT. and it koed. this is the type of shit I’m talking about. evne shit like mandibuzz isnt remotely safe because it can burn you, disable/nasty plot/hex on you, and just wear you down because shadow ball has a chance of lowering spdef - which it will.

And as far as teambuilding restriction goes, you have to keep this shit in mind or your team will just get swept by it with little to no effort. especially since teams with this horse girl bullshit are built around killing the dark and normals with urshifu (another broken) most of the time and getting this to wear down the team as much as possible. We need to get this shit out of here ASAP.
 
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I still have yet to decide on if I think Spectrier is broken or unhealthy in this metagame. I do know, however, it seems to behave like any other top-tier Pokemon that has eventually gotten banned, mainly in that it has potential to break a game open, has checks that are rarer or too team constraining, and the metagame is adapting to its existence. At the moment, it seems that Spectrier is a Pokemon that if you do not have any sort of check/counter AND contingency plan for it once it gets to +1, it will roll your team over. It, very faintly, has some shades of Blaziken in prior generations when it was banworthy. It's definitely easy to see why this thing is still on the ban ladder, it has a huge snowball effect once it gets going and its speed tier is ridiculous. So yeah, I get it, this thing seems bannable at the moment. If it were banned, I'd understand completely and I'd be glad it's one less thing to gameplan for.

That being said, I think the metagame is currently in the process of adapting to Spectrier as I had said before, and honestly, this can be kind of healthy for a metagame. We're seeing new, not necessarily team constraining like I said earlier, mons pop up in the metagame and that's just kind of a way a metagame evolves. Even mons like Obstagoon as an offensive check are starting to pop up here and there. I really think we have to give the tier and just overall meta more time to respond to its presence. We were too busy dealing with some other ridiculously broken mons to really worry about Spectrier. Now that there aren't S++ rank mons rolling around we can really better assess what impact Spectrier truly has on the metagame.

Overall, my honest opinion at the current moment is that Spectrier doesn't really have much on the metagame as a whole in comparison to other broke mons. I think that's something we have to keep in the back of our minds. I mean, seriously, we just got through four gamebreaking mons (I mean come on, Landorus was probably one of the most unmanageable mons I've ever played a metagame with, and I played with prime Mega Kangaskhan) and Spectrier really just doesn't have that "you lose!" instantly factor to it just by seeing it in team preview, even with its ridiculous snowball capabiltiies. It definitely does share somewhat the ability of a broken mon to break through its checks and counters with WoW or sub-disable or some combo of that, but at the end of the day it still can be checked and countered due to its poor coverage and frail physical bulk. I feel like, with any S rank mon, it's one you will have to gameplan for, but nothing overcentralizing. Dark-types, most of the time, handle it pretty soundly, and we really just haven't given the metagame a chance to truly figure this thing out.

The new Pokemon effect is playing a huge factor here. The metagame is as fresh as ever and we really need to wait it out and see what the consensus is and if it's truly 6-0ing teams and getting around its checks and counters with ease, then we should visit banning it. But as of now, I do think it's a bit premature to want to ban this thing as we've barely given the metagame and opportunity to respond. Snowball effect mons are always a touchy subject. In UU Gyarados got banned because with Moxie it would just steamroll teams. When it was reintroduced just a few weeks back the ban-train was rolling at full speed, but once things settled down a ton (albeit with less broken Pokemon like OU had running around), it became pretty clear it was just a very good sweeper.

I think our best bet right now is to sit back and watch what Spectrier does to the metagame now that we have these two supremely broken mons out of here. It could totally prove to be something unmanageable and unacceptable in the metagame, but for now I really think just watching the meta evolve to its most common sets is the best way to handle things.
 
Hola mis amigos, today I would like to touch on an idea that I have been subscribing more and more to by the day: Slowbro is broken and deserves a suspect test.

This isn't exactly a common thought from what I've seen, but I do firmly believe that Slowbro is a ridiculous Pokemon and should be suspect tested. The combination of Regenerator + Future Sight + Teleport is ridiculously potent and is essentially what puts a wide variety of wallbreakers over the edge.

There's a lot of examples of such wallbreakers; think of Cinderace, Choice Specs Magearna, Choice Band Pheromosa, Choice Band Melmetal, Choice Band Zygarde, and Urshifu. A lot of these are generally perceived as broken wallbreakers, but I believe that they're fine individually and that it's actually the support Slowbro provides that makes them so difficult to deal with. Ofcourse, you can definitely still argue for some of these like Zygarde and Magearna to be broken based on other qualities, but not these specific sets.

Generally, these Pokemon do not lack effective checks. Cinderace can be handled by Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Toxapex, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Choice Specs Magearna can be checked by Toxapex, Amoonguss, Heatran, and Excadrill. Choice Band Pheromosa is checked by Toxapex, Moltres, Buzzwole, and Clefable just fine. I think you get the point; what I'm trying to say is that these Pokemon all have checks readily available, though ofcourse their proficiency may vary based on move choices, like Zen Headbutt or Gunk Shot on Cinderace.

It's when you start factoring in an ensuing Future Sight that Pokemon like the ones I mentioned start becoming seriously difficult to deal with. Future Sight provides just that little extra push to allow these wallbreakers to overwhelm their checks; a Toxapex switching into Pheromosa now has to deal with taking a Future Sight, a Clefable switching into Urshifu-S is now 2HKOed by Wicked Blow / Close Combat, a Buzzwole switching into Zygarde suddenly can't switch in because of Future Sight. You get the point. I believe that it's pretty clear that Slowbro is the enabler of many wallbreakers and ultimately what makes them so ridiculously hard to deal with. Getting rid of it would allow us to maintain many more Pokemon in the metagame than otherwise; there's no doubt in my mind that some of these wallbreakers I've mentioned will be banned over time were we to keep Slowbro around.

Now that I've contextualized why I believe that Slowbro is a problem, you're probably wondering 3 things: "Why not Teleport?," "Why not Future Sight?," "Why is Slowking not broken?."

I can give you an easy answer to the third question; everything I've pointed out about Slowbro is also applicable to Slowking and I think you can very well make the argument that it is also broken as a result. However, I didn't want to make this such an exhaustive read so I decided to focus on Slowbro because the defensive niche that it fills is more relevant in this metagame.

The answer to the remaining 2 questions is honestly pretty simple too. Neither move is an issue on its own so it is incredibly hard to argue for either of them to be banned instead. Ask yourself these questions: "is Teleport Mew broken?," "is Teleport Clefable broken?," "is Future Sight Tapu Lele broken?," "is Future Sight Latios broken?". The answer to any of these questions is obviously no, they are not broken. I think that this effectively proves that the whole package of Slowbro is the issue; Regenerator + Teleport + Future Sight is simply too strong, especially when the Pokemon in question is so easy to fit into teams because of how important of a defensive niche it fills.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
I wanna give my view on :spectrier: as well, since the discussion popped up around it.​

In my Point of View it seems on paper that Spectrier is broken currently and I wholeheartedly agree, it looks broken on paper with factoring in that counterplay is limited. The thing is, with that amazing SpA and incredible Speed it is a mon which have to be considered heavily in Teambuilding, especially with its special Moxie ability called Grim neigh, which gives it a +1 once it kills a Pokemon.

Spectrier is a very interesting case in this aspect because it has a very poor Movepool to chose from and it is very fragile, but with the limited counterplay it seems to be broken on paper.

Its Set is mostly limited to Shadow Ball, Hex, Will-O-Wisp, and Mud Shot, but with new Sets popping up like Choice Scarf to prevent the few faster Pokemon to revengekill it, unless its Barraskewda under rain or faster Scarfers (Dragapult, Zeraora (which isn't even that great atm), and Pheromosa)
its incredible threatening in the current metagame.

The potential Sets of Spectrier do not only stop at Choice Scarf or the common Choice Specs, but it can also use a Sub + Disable-Set to gain advantage of other Pokemon it faces, like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, while not being that common right now Corviknight, as well as it is able to punish different choice-locked Pokemon with using them as its Set-up fodder.

Spectrier @ Choice Specs
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mud Shot

Spectrier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mud Shot

Spectrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball

Spectrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Nasty Plot
- Hex

Now up to the counterplay we have for Spectrier in the tier currently:
:Dragapult: Is faster than Set 1, 3, and Set 4, however it can still lose to Scarf Spectrier if Dragapult itself isn't scarfed.
:Hydreigon: not that common but pops up recently in a bit of a bulkier variant to deal with Spectrier.
:Tyranitar: specially defensive Rest-sets can deal with Spectrier pretty well.
:mandibuzz: Can deal with Spectrier pretty well as it has longterm longevity with Roost.​

As I see it, the counterplay seems to be limited currently, but we just got recently the Landorus-I ban and yesterday the ban of Kyurem-Black and Zygarde-50%. I would still wait how the metagame settles and if more counterplay is able to pop up in the future. For now I would keep Spectrier under close eyes and along with it Pheromosa and also Melmetal, to see how they will fit in a metagame without Kyurem-Black and Zygarde-50%.

Thanks for reading​
 
I am 100% down to discuss Bro but there should also be some acknowledgement that FuturePort is also the best single way to make consistent progress against toxapex/regenerator teams. I am not implying that Pex is broken without futureport in the meta, but I think it's a notable buff to regenerator cores should you not be able to pin things like you currently can with Futureport.
 
I would like to touch on an idea that I have been subscribing more and more to by the day: Slowbro is broken and deserves a suspect test.
Apologies for the short post, I'm about to head out to a birthday lunch. However I just want to weigh in and say that I agree with your post & position on Slowbro + Future Sight + Breaker.

I've been trying out a lot of fat mons in the meta, and quite frankly, it is very difficult bordering on impossible to actually play around this combination. Pokemon that could be adequately handled by the likes of buzzwole or toxapex get absolutely trashed, meaning you have to either consider not using them in the teambuilder, or trying to tank the future sight with another pokemon that cannot handle the breaker itself.

I know that some people might think this is a good thing as it forces progress and I am not wholly adverse to this line reasoning. I would like to see some discussion on the topic though.

I won't proffer any thoughts about future sight vs offence, as I honestly haven't been playing any offence on the ladder.

I was thinking about writing something about this earlier, but it seemed so unorthodox and no one else had brought it up, so I didn't want to seem like a salty fat user or noob lol - so thank you for bringing it up Jordy.
 

ViZar

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:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
I really hate it, but I don't think that it is broken. In my eyes, it restricts teambuilding a bit. I think the reason is that most Dark or Normal have no reliable recovery or can't handle status or boosting sets.

In my opinion, the by far best checks:
:bw/mandibuzz: :bw/blissey:

Mandibuzz has a resistence to Ghost and Dark and hovers above Mud Shot (I know its weak, but it hits Heatran and provides Speed control) and has reliable recovery in roost. I always run 64 Sp. Def. in order to always live two Choice Specs Hexes after burn damage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

However, Spectrier has still has potential to beat Mandibuzz. Burning on the switch and then setting-up a Nasty Plot can defeat Mandibuzz while it doesn't do that much damage. Spectrier doesn't need to stay in. It can burn Mandibuzz, switch-out, come back later and use Nasty Plot when Mandibuzz switches in. I know it sounds like a best case scenario, but people will switch-in Mandibuzz and don't sac any other mon.

0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 111-132 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Mandibuzz: 225-264 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Blissey is the best checks, immune to its Ghost STAB and able to cure burns. Dark Pulse doesn't do anything even at +6 (if Spectrier has Leftovers instead of Life Orb), while Blissey can either cripple it with status, provide momentum with Teleport, heal up if it got low earlier in the match or 1v1 Spectrier with Shadow Ball. Chansey it also a good choice, Shadow Ball isn't a very good option, since Chansey has horrendous Sp. Atk., but it tanks Spectriers hits better.

+6 252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 290-342 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 240-283 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 110-130 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Chansey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 64-76 (18.7 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery


Other checks:
:bw/tyranitar:
1605820987720.png
1605821022212.png
1605821106946.png
1605821154412.png
:bw/hydreigon:

Those are really good checks, but they all, expect for two, don't have reliable recovery outside of Rest. Tyranitar has the best odds to tank hits, due to its similiar stats to Mandibuzz and Sandstream, which gives it a free +1 Sp. Def. boost. However its crippled by burn, especially since its a physical attacker, and it can't heal itself outside of Rest and Leftovers.
Zarude can heal off burns and its HP by 25%, however it can't tank hits that well. It has similiar bulk to Mandibuzz again, but it invests in its offenses and there can't invest much in bulk.
Goltres and switch-in and set-up in its face, but it will most likely also have an offensive spread and its crippled by burn again and can only heal with Rest.
Incineroar is immune to Will-O-Wisp, but gets hit by Mud Shot super effectively.
Obstagoon is immune to Ghost and makes use of the burn, but it's slower than something like Urshifu and doesn't have great longevity.
Speaking of Urshifu, it can switch-in on every thing aside from Will-O-Wisp and it can revenge kill it, but I don't really now if its that great, because imo it's a bit to much crippled by burn.
Hydreigon might be 3rd best check. It has Roost, Defog and a Ground immunity just like Mandibuzz, but it also has enough power to deal with Spectrier.

0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 398-470 (116.7 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk burned Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zarude: 179-211 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 296-350 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar: 142-168 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

0 Atk Incineroar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 356-420 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Incineroar: 158-188 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 612-722 (179.4 - 211.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Obstagoon: 116-137 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 888-1046 (260.4 - 306.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band burned Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier on a critical hit: 444-523 (130.2 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 261-307 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

32 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 176 HP / 45 SpD Hydreigon: 179-211 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Those mons are still great checks, but imo they aren't as consistent as Mandibuzz and Blissey.

TL;DR
In my opinion Spectrier isn't overpowered, but it is somehow restricting. The first I add are either Mandibuzz or Blissey or an other checks mentioned above. It lacks consistent checks that can't be defeat as easily. Except for Blissey, because this thing is Spectiers nightmare.
 

AM

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The issue with Slowbro would be Teleport itself, because Future Sight is not a new concept but is amplified by the current mechanic of Teleport. Contrary to the idea that other users of it are not unhealthy or broken is debatable because Teleport Chan,Bliss,Clef passing off wishes with little to no opportunity cost to the teleport user creates scenarios where the teleport using player has moved all momentum to their side. There is almost no thought process to utilizing Teleport on any of the mons which can viably use them seeing as most of them are there to sponge and get out. And if you're lucky enough to face Tele cores with these mons you can forget even trying to control the matchup. A mon coming in for free is what "breaks" Teleport imo because other momentum switch in moves can come with different opportunity costs based on a scenario in play (Rocky Helm chip U-turning something for example). With Teleport you're practically given a Get out of Jail card.

I would look at Teleport before I look at Slowbro as far as this discussion goes because Slowbro is actually a good mon to keep a lot of the physicality of the tier in check especially now. Most of Slowbro's constraint with the Teleport set beyond just taking total control and momentum away from the opposing player is the fact the tier is filled with a lot of dangerous receivers right now. As far as defensive mons go I would put this below something like Toxapex who serves a different function but its ability to throw out Toxic Spikes, Knock Off items off defoggers with Heavy Duty Boots and the the lame PP stalling games it's able to accomplish in combination with Regen among just Scald and Toxic I think is more unhealthy than Teleport personally.

But this is all low priority stuff it seems as more unhealthy than just broken, because there's some more dangerous things right now.
 

ausma

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Hola mis amigos, today I would like to touch on an idea that I have been subscribing more and more to by the day: Slowbro is broken and deserves a suspect test.

This isn't exactly a common thought from what I've seen, but I do firmly believe that Slowbro is a ridiculous Pokemon and should be suspect tested. The combination of Regenerator + Future Sight + Teleport is ridiculously potent and is essentially what puts a wide variety of wallbreakers over the edge.

There's a lot of examples of such wallbreakers; think of Cinderace, Choice Specs Magearna, Choice Band Pheromosa, Choice Band Melmetal, Choice Band Zygarde, and Urshifu. A lot of these are generally perceived as broken wallbreakers, but I believe that they're fine individually and that it's actually the support Slowbro provides that makes them so difficult to deal with. Ofcourse, you can definitely still argue for some of these like Zygarde and Magearna to be broken based on other qualities, but not these specific sets.

Generally, these Pokemon do not lack effective checks. Cinderace can be handled by Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Toxapex, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Choice Specs Magearna can be checked by Toxapex, Amoonguss, Heatran, and Excadrill. Choice Band Pheromosa is checked by Toxapex, Moltres, Buzzwole, and Clefable just fine. I think you get the point; what I'm trying to say is that these Pokemon all have checks readily available, though ofcourse their proficiency may vary based on move choices, like Zen Headbutt or Gunk Shot on Cinderace.

It's when you start factoring in an ensuing Future Sight that Pokemon like the ones I mentioned start becoming seriously difficult to deal with. Future Sight provides just that little extra push to allow these wallbreakers to overwhelm their checks; a Toxapex switching into Pheromosa now has to deal with taking a Future Sight, a Clefable switching into Urshifu-S is now 2HKOed by Wicked Blow / Close Combat, a Buzzwole switching into Zygarde suddenly can't switch in because of Future Sight. You get the point. I believe that it's pretty clear that Slowbro is the enabler of many wallbreakers and ultimately what makes them so ridiculously hard to deal with. Getting rid of it would allow us to maintain many more Pokemon in the metagame than otherwise; there's no doubt in my mind that some of these wallbreakers I've mentioned will be banned over time were we to keep Slowbro around.

Now that I've contextualized why I believe that Slowbro is a problem, you're probably wondering 3 things: "Why not Teleport?," "Why not Future Sight?," "Why is Slowking not broken?."

I can give you an easy answer to the third question; everything I've pointed out about Slowbro is also applicable to Slowking and I think you can very well make the argument that it is also broken as a result. However, I didn't want to make this such an exhaustive read so I decided to focus on Slowbro because the defensive niche that it fills is more relevant in this metagame.

The answer to the remaining 2 questions is honestly pretty simple too. Neither move is an issue on its own so it is incredibly hard to argue for either of them to be banned instead. Ask yourself these questions: "is Teleport Mew broken?," "is Teleport Clefable broken?," "is Future Sight Tapu Lele broken?," "is Future Sight Latios broken?". The answer to any of these questions is obviously no, they are not broken. I think that this effectively proves that the whole package of Slowbro is the issue; Regenerator + Teleport + Future Sight is simply too strong, especially when the Pokemon in question is so easy to fit into teams because of how important of a defensive niche it fills.
I really want to emphasize the sentiment of this post, because I think Jordy is completely right here.

I would like to express my agreement that no wallbreaker in particular is really broken on its own merits. There are a ton of really good, natural ways to check a good lot of the wallbreakers in the metagame rather naturally. For example, Melmetal has a wealth of switch-ins that compress a lot of roles in the metagame, giving builders a lot of room to flexibly prepare for threats while not putting themselves on a leash; you have Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Rotom-H, Moltres, and Zapdos as example checks, and there are other creative ways to handle it as well. Each of these Pokemon provide unique utility to teams. The same can be said about Pheromosa and other prominent wallbreakers like Urshifu-SS; I never find myself troubled to find a way to check these Pokemon in battle and in the builder when they are by themselves.

However, this sentiment changes with the support of Future Sight. Future Sight creates a very dangerous checkmate scenario for the opponent due to the phenomenal synergy of Future Sight between premier wallbreakers, where the opponent can switch in their check and get blasted into 2hko range by Future Sight, or can stay in and lose their Pokemon to the wallbreaker in question. While I find this to be normally balanced since it requires smart set up and doubling, Regenerator + Teleport mitigates this greatly. The Slowbro user in question is not required to sack momentum to stay healthy (and can usually stay healthy due to its solid defensive typing and natural bulk) and can freely spam Future Sight throughout the course of the match with little to no consequence, while perfectly positioning to force the checkmate scenario. The fact it can consistently do this throughout the course of the match is cause for concern, and elevates the breaking potential of many offensive threats in the tier to a point where it is extremely difficult to manage.

This is 100% not the case for Future Sight or Teleport in of themselves, because we would have seen an uptick of this with other Pokemon; it is easily the combination of these moves in tandem with Regenerator to keep the enabler healthy that is extremely problematic. I entirely agree with the sentiment here and I definitely think Futureport from Slowbro/Slowking is worth keeping on the radar, even if it's not overtly broken.

:spectrier:

I would like to hear the opinions of the community on what they think about the Ghost horse. Spectrier has proven itself to be a phenomenal Pokemon in a very short time thanks to its phenomenal Sp. Atk and Speed, allowing the Pokemon to either act as a late-game cleaner with Scarf sets or be a breaker with Will-o / Hex + NP or Specs sets. Even when its move pool isn't that great, the tools on its disposal are more than enough to leave a mark and can snowball very easily with the gained Sp. Atk from its ability.

It can single-handedly generate enough pressure against many archetypes that usually don't run a Ghost resist, two good examples would be Rain teams which are now running Barraskewda as an offensive countermeasure and still dreadfully fear it, and Trick Room teams that would have to rely on Porygon 2 if that is the team's Trick Room setter. Not limited to that, the Specs and/or Will-o + Hex set can force standard defensive cores that contain Pokemon like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Toxapex, and Clefable.

The lack of Pursuit this generation and having a limited amount of Ghost resists in Tyranitar, Blissey, and Mandibuzz allows this Pokemon to shine. I personally haven't had any troubles around this Pokemon as I mostly use sand teams based around Sp. Def Tyranitar that runs Rest, the ban of Zygarde simply allowed me to put Rest back over Ice Beam I used to run. Let me hear your thoughts :blobthumbsup:

(Lastly, a team I made and I have been frequently using, if anybody else wants to test it https://pokepast.es/5990101802910039 )
Many people have phenomenally summed up my thoughts on Spectrier, so I'll avoid repeating what's already been said in a much more consise, meaningful sense.

I agree that Spectrier is definitely worth keeping an eye on, but while I don't see it as a top threat, I do see it as something to keep in the back of our minds. I think its ability to snowball unprepared teams is extremely worrisome, especially since its speed tier with a Choice Scarf is neigh (lol) unparalleled, and its Choice Specs set is extremely hard to switch into consistently throughout the course of the match. I've found that usually to make my teams remain whole without letting myself auto-lose to Spectrier, I almost always need Mandibuzz or Blissey if I want to maintain role compression on my team.

Though, given we have just banned two meta-defining threats, I think Spectrier definitely needs some time and the metagame needs to adapt to an eased teambuilder before we can go any further with it.
 
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Zneon

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Since Slowbro has been brought up, I might as well talk about it.

So I feel Slowbro is an excellent Pokemon primarily for the reasons that Jordy brought up, its a very consistent Future Sight user due to its combination of Regenerator and Teleport and this, alongside its already good defensive utility gives it multiple opportunities to use it and allow its wallbreaking teammates to abuse them. So I'm going to go over few things and then determine what I feel about Slowbro in the metagame and if its unhealthy overall.

Part 1: Not gonna kill me today


First thing I want to talk about is how it fits into the metagame outside of Future Sight. Its a great defensive Pokemon that I feel adds a multitude of positives, such as being a Melmetal, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Blaziken, and Excadrill check; I could go on and on about the amount of prominent Pokemon it checks but the next thing I want to get into is its amazing longevity. It has Slack Off and Regenerator along with Teleport, so you are mostly not going to be wearing it down or even knocking it out anytime soon considering that it will not really lose momentum by a lot of damage 1 turn because after a few more turns of switching in and out your Slowbro is back up to full. It has a lot of amazing elements for it, now we have to go into the big part of it and what really separates it from the other Bulky waters.

Part 2: HA! Psyche!


Yeah this is the one right here. Future Sight is a ridiculous move and Slowbro uses it to an extent that no other Pokemon could ever really replicate, not even Slowking because it doesn't have the same defensive value as Slowbro does. Slowbro fits on a wide range of teams and pretty easily because of its useful traits, and with how good Future Sight is at applying pressure to teams, Slowbro I feel its probably too good of a supporter to these Pokemon sometimes. This is really only Slowbro doing this as well, because no other Pokemon has the tools to actually use Future Sight to such an absurdbly consistent level that Slowbro does. That's my main issue with how Slowbro supports these Pokemon with Future Sight, its too consistent at doing it and overall just too low risk and high reward to not really go for in almost every game, especially when you factor in how dangerous some of our breakers are, and when you add how Slowbro supports the very best ones with Future Sight, the pressure is always going to come in practice.

Conclusion: Impact


So I think from reading you already know how I feel about Slowbro and its impact, its insanely good and bordering on the line of oppressive and unhealthy with how it is far too consistent at pulling the Future Sight off, how it is too low risk and high reward of a strategy to go for, and how it matches up with a vast majority of our best offensive Pokemon. But if its broken, I am going to have to say no though. However I do think this Pokemon is definitely problematic and I would put it under my radar. Hopefully you guys enjoyed this post.

Thanks for reading! :blobthumbsup:
 
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Roy

streetpkmn
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Aegislash is CRIMINALLY underrated. The mixed set is devastating: Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon/CC/Shadow Sneak. Throw on a Spell Tag and opponents assume you are choice locked, which means you can Sneak after. What are you switching in other than Mandibuzz?

It hits most things neutral anywhere from 40 to 80%, and with some SR support/residual damage, you're killing a ton of things the next turn with Shadow Sneak.

Edit: also bonks Buzzwole even harder than Buzzwole counters Urshifu, except they're also essentially trapped unless they want someone else to get nailed on the switch-in.
 
Aegislash is CRIMINALLY underrated. The mixed set is devastating: Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon/CC/Shadow Sneak. Throw on a Spell Tag and opponents assume you are choice locked, which means you can Sneak after. What are you switching in other than Mandibuzz?

It hits most things neutral anywhere from 40 to 80%, and with some SR support/residual damage, you're killing a ton of things the next turn with Shadow Sneak.

Edit: also bonks Buzzwole even harder than Buzzwole counters Urshifu, except they're also essentially trapped unless they want someone else to get nailed on the switch-in.
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Toxapex: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 145-172 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 22.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I guess these are some common spreads you'll see around and like Pex and Fini can knock Aegi.
Moltres and Zapdos are 2hko by shadow ball but they scare out Blade and can roost.

On paper, yes Aegi wins if its often in a position to force things out and you can bring it in multiple times in the battle and you can guess your opponents future double switches correctly.
But in practice right now I think you're only getting a few good chances to bring such a set in, and if you predict wrong you're forced out as Blade is pretty easily killed by a lot of stuff if its on the receiving end.
 

Roy

streetpkmn
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252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Toxapex: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 145-172 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 22.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I guess these are some common spreads you'll see around and like Pex and Fini can knock Aegi.
Moltres and Zapdos are 2hko by shadow ball but they scare out Blade and can roost.

On paper, yes Aegi wins if its often in a position to force things out and you can bring it in multiple times in the battle,
but in practice right now I think you're only getting a few good chances to bring such a set in
I get what you're saying but you're generally trying to save him for mid-late game where everything is somewhat chipped. I guess my greater point is most things not resisting ghost who have taken some chip damage are getting pounded by him. Also is great to switch-in versus Fleur Cannons, Draco Meteors, etc. Not sure of a single other Pokemon who can switch into as powerful threats while immediately going on the attack (without LO or a choice item I might add) as Aegislash.

As far as his defensive utility goes, he is a fantastic Pheramosa check and also revenge kills him, along with Spectrier. In a metagame where a novice clicking an attacking move that snowballs can easily win, it's revenge killing capabilities are crucial.
 
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Blissey is the best checks, immune to its Ghost STAB and able to cure burns. Dark Pulse doesn't do anything even at +6 (if Spectrier has Leftovers instead of Life Orb), while Blissey can either cripple it with status, provide momentum with Teleport, heal up if it got low earlier in the match or 1v1 Spectrier with Shadow Ball. Chansey it also a good choice, Shadow Ball isn't a very good option, since Chansey has horrendous Sp. Atk., but it tanks Spectriers hits better.

+6 252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 290-342 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 240-283 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 110-130 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Chansey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 64-76 (18.7 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dark Pulse 100% beats Blissey unless you are having a terrible day. The set I am going to examine is this:
:Spectrier:
Spectrier @ Leftovers
Timid Nature
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Disable
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse

+6 Dark Pulse doesn't 2HKO Blissey, but you have to remember that it is a 3HKO. Even Nasty Plot variants can often break through non-toxic blissey due to the fact that Dark Pulse has a 20% flinch rate. 1 Flinch usually spells the end for Blissey, and if it's high enough health then Spectrier can just rinse and repeat. However, there's something even more threatening: Disable + Calm Mind. Calm Mind Spdef boosts means that Blissey's Shadow Ball cannot break the sub, which means that Spectrier doesn't need to Disable the Shadow Ball, which means that Spectrier is free to Disable the Soft Boiled. Once the Soft Boiled is disabled, it's pretty much GG, as it is quite difficult to revenge kill a +6 spdef Spectrier behind Sub (most of the faster mons are Special/are pheromosa). Not even Hydreigon and Mandibuzz are always safe, as if the Spectrier subs on the switch (as it often will), it gives a free turn to get a CM boost and then disable the Dark Pulse/Foul Play. Hydreigon Earth Power does not break Spectrier's sub at +1. Tyranitar is usually a safe counter to this set, as well as Toxapex and Ferrothorn, but who in the world is switching a non-ghost resist into a sub spectrier when it very well could be Sub-NP-Wisp-Hex and you just got 6-0d again (+4 Boosted Hex 2HKOs Fully Spdef Mandibuzz). Or even worse, it could be a Choice Specs set, and because your Mandibuzz is burned and has around 7% chip it's 2HKOed by Specs +1 Boosted Hex. You see what i'm getting at here? Spectrier sets get to choose what they are stonewalled by, but if the defending player "misplays" and scouts for the wrong set first they oftentimes just instantly lose.

:Slowbro:
This is definitely an interesting proposition. I have found future sight hard to use myself, but that's just because I'm not good at forcing situations where Slowbro clicks future sight, and then get in a pokemon that can profit off of it. For now my point of view will be this: It's good because it shuts up the "Smogon loves stall" people (Slowbro is still technically a defensive mon), but at the same time it benefits balance/bulky offense/stall teams, so that's a total win in my book LOL.

One thing: Watch out. Last time, Finchinator brought up Toxapex and then pretty much everyone hopped on the "ban toxapex" bandwagon. Before posting some mean or not-well-though-out post about SLowbro, first try to think about Slowbro from your own experience, instead of automatically agreeing with Jordy. I would counsel to actively try to convince yourself that Slowbro is not broken to make sure you think he is broken, and not just that you're hopping on another bandwagon. I am not two things: I am not a psychologist, and I am not saying that Slowbro isn't broken, just giving a word of warning because I feel like Toxapex got more ban hate than it really deserved as a pokemon because it was annoying and because Finch said so.
 
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Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
I would look at Teleport before I look at Slowbro as far as this discussion goes because Slowbro is actually a good mon to keep a lot of the physicality of the tier in check especially now. Most of Slowbro's constraint with the Teleport set beyond just taking total control and momentum away from the opposing player is the fact the tier is filled with a lot of dangerous receivers right now. As far as defensive mons go I would put this below something like Toxapex who serves a different function but its ability to throw out Toxic Spikes, Knock Off items off defoggers with Heavy Duty Boots and the the lame PP stalling games it's able to accomplish in combination with Regen among just Scald and Toxic I think is more unhealthy than Teleport personally.
Main problem is teleport is not in and of itself a broken move, we aren't able to ban teleport unless it was easily abusable and "broken" on any pokemon with it. There are certainly great abusers of the move, but this doesn't mean the move itself should be looked at, since the ban of teleport would not only affect OU, but also every tier below it.

The main problem with slowbro (and kind of slowking), is that Future SIght, Teleport and Regenerator is an incredible synergy that makes slowbro able to freely launch future sights without repercussion. Any other pokemon has a huge opportunity cost of using future sight or teleport, since they can still take damage the turn they use this move, being able to freely switch out and provide momentum while healing 1/3 of it's health is a combination that no other evolution line has access to, adding future sight into the mix adds to situations where offensive teams are able to freely pick off and eliminate pokemon one by one.

In my eyes, we shouldn't be talking about banning teleport or future sight. The Slowbro line is the only one that abuses this strategy to it's full potential.

(In my opinion, Slowbro should definitely be looked at first though)
 
One thing: Watch out. Last time, Finchinator brought up Toxapex and then pretty much everyone hopped on the "ban toxapex" bandwagon. Before posting some mean or not-well-though-out post about SLowbro, first try to think about Slowbro from your own experience, instead of automatically agreeing with Jordy. I would counsel to actively try to convince yourself that Slowbro is not broken to make sure you think he is broken, and not just that you're hopping on another bandwagon. I am not two things: I am not a psychologist, and I am not saying that Slowbro isn't broken, just giving a word of warning because I feel like Toxapex got more ban hate than it really deserved as a pokemon because it was annoying and because Finch said so.
I don't really think that that's a fair assessment, I've always believed that pex was an unhealthy part of the meta game because it forces power creep like no other defensive mon ever has, and I'm sure quite a few other players agree with me based on the reception to finches post. I believe banning pex/any other centralizing defensive mon gives us a chance to reign in the power creep, because there are many offensive pokemon that would never be allowed in OU without a jack of all trades wall that can blanket check so much. Slow bro right now is an incredibly potent physical wall, and removing it may tone down the tier as a whole.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
do yall actually have a problem with this? I’m actually being serious here. It's really not that big of an issue and more importantly extremely exploitable. It's entirely one dimensional and pretty not even that strong. future sight isn't doing that much damage at all. I actually would like to see exactly what teams u are using b/c knowing Jordy, you're using that certain type of shit that this is going to be effective for but for legit most things other than that it's super easy to deal with. Slowbro is REALLY easy to get past even with a physical attacker if u can power up; usually, I just toxic it and it takes care of itself or trick it/nasty plot on it. Slowking galar is more of an issue to that strategy but it's really not an issue, just a good lil mon. frankly there are bigger issues at play that go along with this - bringing in broken mons which I think is the real issue. While there is a plethora of broken shit here in the tier, this shit is HIGHLY effective because of it's ability to bring shit in that can steamroll too easily, otherwise, it's like pretty like... ok because again. you can easily exploit this shit



edit: musiquepkmn your post is literally what I said in the conclusion did you read , also mandibuzz lives banded +_ future sight but that's neither here nor there
 
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