Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #2312)

Pardon me for asking this but what makes urshifu more worth a suspect than spectrier at this point. I do believe both are unhealthy and should leave the OU metagame, but I feel that urshifu has a couple stops to it and at least forces progress alongside futureport in games. Meanwhile I cannot think of a single positive to spectrier, who restricts teambuilding just as much or even more than urshifu, as it mandates a ghost resist and can even bypass its checks and counters thanks to its diverse sets. Plus, spectrier's speed tier means I find it harder to check offensively than urshifu, even if urshifu has sucker punch. All in all while I do think urshifu deserves a suspect test, I cant deny that spectrier is more restricting and has less benefits in my eyes. I'm really not sure to figure out why urshifu should get one before spectrier, but if anyone has insight as to why urshifu is more pressing than spectrier feel free to let me know.
 

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Sorry if this isn't the type of question to ask here. But is it possible to suspect two or more mons at the same time?
Possible, yes, but not ideal. The overlap can skew the suspect and this has happened in the past. When it’s not absolutely dire, extreme circumstances, double suspects are best to avoid. We are not in a rush to drastically change the metagame either, so we shall do it in a fashion that allows us to practice tiering to the best of our abilities and for the best interest of the playerbase.

Also, just a reminder that this isn’t exactly a Q&A thread; simple questions can go in the SQSA and complex ones you can PM me anytime friends.
 
I’m on team suspect multiple mons at the same time and quit wasting time. Like it’s blatantly clear there are large amounts of issues so why not do a mage + soectruer + urshifu test. It’s not like
That are dependent on each other
Because not everyone has the same opinions on those mons, one person may want all 3 banned while another wants only 2, 1, or none of the 3 banned. Like Finch said, the overlap can skew the suspect, most likely changing the result compared to if they were suspected separately.
 
I’m on team suspect multiple mons at the same time and quit wasting time. Like it’s blatantly clear there are large amounts of issues so why not do a mage + soectruer + urshifu test. It’s not like
That are dependent on each other
Also to add on, the metagame will be GREATLY reshaped by the hopeful bans of spectrier and urshifu, which frees up team building a lot and it’s hard to say which mons will be viable or how the meta will look like with each of them gone. That’s why I have no opinion on stuff like magearna, as there are more problematic things and I don’t want to claim something is broken when the meta itself will reshape from urshifu and spectrier’s possible bans.
 
why not just cast votes In batch independently? Why do y’all act like when you vote in real life you don’t vote on 20 things at once like what the fuck are y’all talking about lol. This isn’t a complicated problem. And as for the Magearna thing, I’m just gonna say. It’s obviously broken this isn’t something that can really be argued if I’m being honest. Literally just go back and read the past posts on it when it was banned before and nothing has changed. Sorry if I’m coming off as harsh but that’s just really how it is. And as far as effects on the metagame other games do mass bans as well that are far more complex so I really don’t see an issue. However I is I’ll concede that not everyone has my point of view so I’ll let it go for now.
 
Either way ya'll doing this suspect test, I'll literally jump with joy when we get these immense threats out of the way.

The main issue for me is how Spec/Magear/Ace/Shifu SS limits your options just to handle them. Do I have to run Koko and Clef to take on Urshifu? Do I have to run Blissey/Chansey to deal with Spectrier? These four destroy stall, but that doesn't get rid of stall. It just makes desperate checks and counters more of a need to put on a team. That makes teambuilding a little straining as if you don't run a necessary block, then you could risk losing the game.

I don't play a whole lot of OU, but I have seen lot of battles in the format. And I gotta say, it's not fun watching one mon potentially sweep because Player A forgot to add a necessary check to one of the Four...
 
Thunder Pwoell probably the part where this is a forum. I mean, when you vote irl, you usually don't get to say anything and in the long run, it's just one vote and you won't be able to change a stranger's mind due to lack of discussion. But here, you can actually get some discussion going so that's probably why they don't wanna suspect more than one thing. Also, irl votes like the ones in politics have about half a year for people to gather their thoughts while here you only have like a couple weeks. That's just what I think anyway so don't really know if it's true or maybe just me being cynical

Speaking of suspects, do moves also get suspected or are the suspect tests restricted only to pokemon?
 
Speaking of suspects, do moves also get suspected or are the suspect tests restricted only to pokemon?
judging by Baton Pass and Swagger, moves can be too. As can abilities
god regenerator sucks ass to face. makes already bulky pokemon ludicrous, but since no singular pokemon uses it, and instead two or three (Tox, Slowbro, maybe Slowking iirc), it'd have to be the ability thats suspected, like Arena Trap or somethin
 
judging by Baton Pass and Swagger, moves can be too. As can abilities
god regenerator sucks ass to face. makes already bulky pokemon ludicrous, but since no singular pokemon uses it, and instead two or three (Tox, Slowbro, maybe Slowking iirc), it'd have to be the ability thats suspected, like Arena Trap or somethin
Unfortunately it's very hard to prove that an ability is broken, because ability bans affect every tier if its banned in OU. I personally think that regenerator is overpowered, but its highly unlikely it would be banned because it's nowhere near as busted as trapping abilities/moody
 
POV you forgot to run Buzzwole:


Urshifu is busted and it all starts with it's dumbass signature move. Now that Zygarde is gone, effectively taking 1k Arrows with it (sorry zydog,) Wicked Blow (not sexual) is probably the best attack in the game. A base 80 dark STAB attack is good but then you realize its fun gimmick is that it is a guaranteed crit. I cannot stress enough how fucking stupid that is. This means often means that running a dark resist simply isn't enough because it just crits it. And that's the problem with Urshifu. Its ability to use Wicked Blow to muscle through would-be resists severely limits defensive counterplay. Buzzwole reliably checks it. Clefable can sometimes, but Shifu can just poison jab it. But you know what Buzwole can't wall? Future Sight. Shifu paired with FS is virtually unstoppable because FS will either break through Buzzwole or force it out. To be fair, due to it's solid but not scary speed tier, there is more offensive counterplay than something like Phero or Spectrier. Fast fairies slaughter it and cinderace can eat a sucker punch at full health and OHKO it with HJK. However, the lack of defensive counterplay, I feel, is unhealthy for the tier. I'll leave you with this bit of Alabama bear exploitation law:

A person commits the offense of unlawful bear exploitation if he or she knowingly does any one of the following:
(1) Promotes, engages in, or is employed at a bear wrestling match.
(2) Receives money for the admission of another person to a place kept for bear wrestling.
(3) Sells, purchases, possesses, or trains a bear for bear wrestling.

I think smogon should go the way of Alabama and ban the bear.
 
To be fair, due to it's solid but not scary speed tier, there is more offensive counterplay than something like Phero or Spectrier. Fast fairies slaughter it and cinderace can eat a sucker punch at full health and OHKO it with HJK. However, the lack of defensive counterplay, I feel, is unhealthy for the tier.
i like how there's actually options to defeat it, and people still get in a twist. Anything that resists its stabs and can fire back, or even just live a SP and threaten death, is a potential check, much less overpower it like said fast fairies and shit. Defensively it punches a hole, but that's not the only way to play, especially with the HO core of UrSpectGear, or strong offense like Cinderace, Nidoking, etc. I dont get the unhealthy part, but that might just be my bias.
 
Seems like even with Pheromosa ban, it didn't really affect Urshifu since it's still broken as shit and Pheromosa can't even reliably check it since cockroaches dies quickly. Really is true that every single day, dark Urshifu gets more support for a suspect. If it does get support, would it actually be possible to suspect it before the year ends or when the new year starts? I mean, just about everyone agrees that it is the most brain dead thing in existence

Since moves can also be suspected, maybe future sight should be suspected too. Even if Urshifu gets banned, other pokemon can still take its place to abuse the sight to get favorable match ups
 
Seems like even with Pheromosa ban, it didn't really affect Urshifu since it's still broken as shit and Pheromosa can't even reliably check it since cockroaches dies quickly. Really is true that every single day, dark Urshifu gets more support for a suspect. If it does get support, would it actually be possible to suspect it before the year ends or when the new year starts? I mean, just about everyone agrees that it is the most brain dead thing in existence

Since moves can also be suspected, maybe future sight should be suspected too. Even if Urshifu gets banned, other pokemon can still take its place to abuse the sight to get favorable match ups
Future sight as a move is not broken, you don’t see future sight gardevoir or Alakazam tearing up the meta. The ability of the slowtwins to eat a hit, futures sight, and teleport out alongside their longevity with reliable recovery and regenerator is what makes the strategy so good. While urshifu was already questionable even without the strategy, mons like melmetal and cinderace become a lot harder to check with future sight. It really just depends on this: how many mons to we have to ban before futureport no longer becomes an issue? We can ban maybe one or two mons, but banning many breakers just to preserve slowbro and slow king is a no go for me. Maybe once tests for urshifu and spectrier occurs the community will be able to gauge whether the slowtwins are the problem or the breakers they supplement, and how many do we have to ban before it stops being a problem or should we just ban the slowtwins. I don’t know the answer or what the meta will look like without urshifu and spectrier, but overall we’re either banning breakers or slowtwins, not the move future sight, and if more than 1 or 2 have to be banned it’s the slowtwins problem and not theirs
 
There is a way we can suspect two things at once and not have it feel like a crapshoot.

We suspect both forms of Urshifu, of course!

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :urshifu:

In practice of course Urshifu-Rapid isn't nearly as plainly broken as Urshifu-Single. But the problems raised by it can be even more devistating than its counterpart given the same set up. It still hits through Protect, it still automatically scores Critical Hits, it still has excellent offensive typing. It trades its Ferropex MU to beat Clefable and Moltres. This is a tough call when there's two Urshifu to choose from... but not if there's only one Urshifu left in the tier. Urshifu-Rapid isn't going to suddenly become the new Dracovish overnight. But it is going to force a lot of the same unhealthy scenarios that Urshifu-Single is currently doing, if Single is singled out for a ban. Thus, I propose a suspect of both.
 
There is a way we can suspect two things at once and not have it feel like a crapshoot.

We suspect both forms of Urshifu, of course!

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :urshifu:

In practice of course Urshifu-Rapid isn't nearly as plainly broken as Urshifu-Single. But the problems raised by it can be even more devistating than its counterpart given the same set up. It still hits through Protect, it still automatically scores Critical Hits, it still has excellent offensive typing. It trades its Ferropex MU to beat Clefable and Moltres. This is a tough call when there's two Urshifu to choose from... but not if there's only one Urshifu left in the tier. Urshifu-Rapid isn't going to suddenly become the new Dracovish overnight. But it is going to force a lot of the same unhealthy scenarios that Urshifu-Single is currently doing, if Single is singled out for a ban. Thus, I propose a suspect of both.
Absurd proposition. Rapid strike has a much more exploitable typing and a more "counterable" offensive typing. Having a Ferrothorn dissuades Rapid strike from clicking its Surging strikes and if it clicks CC, fairies can take its hits fairly easily. It also doesnt break Bulky Grasses as easy as Single Strike does to Wicked Blow resists since Wicked blow resists get blown the fuck out by Close Combat. Defensively dark is only resisted by ONE type and is easy to overwhelm especially with future sight support (since dark types love coming in) whereas water is resisted by THREE types. Water, Grass and Dragon and is not as easy to overwhelm since most teams have 2 or all of these in one team making it harder for Rapid Shifu to just click its stabs.
Edit: Woops I'm ass and cant remember what dark resists there are
 
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Defensively dark is only resisted by ONE type and is easy to overwhelm especially with future sight support (since dark types love coming in)
While I agree with your post overall, it is worth noting that dark is not resisted by only one type. It's resisted by 3; Dark itself, Fighting and Fairy. Dark and Water both have the same amount of resists. Your point about future sight support is absolutely valid though, and it's one of the reasons I think Urshifu-SS is worthy of a suspect.

Speaking of suspects, I hate to add to suspect talk in the metagame discussion thread (there's enough of it as is), but I do think that there are some problematic elements in the meta at the moment. These are made more glaring by my belief that the metagame is actually in a pretty good place now. That is... outside of these elements.

1) Urshifu-SS :urshifu:

Probably my pick for the most broken mon currently in the tier. For reasons already mentioned in the thread (Wicked Blow, Future Sight support, excellent coverage), I do agree that Urshifu-SS should potentially be looked at.

I have been using this mon a lot recently, specifically band w/ Sucker Punch. It always catches me a little off guard how well this mon can do with even 1 correct prediction. Not that you even necessarily need to do that, you can use a pivot to bring it in with relative ease and kill a mon pretty regularly. Buzzwole is the one true counter, and it is checked by numerous mons. Even so, I feel this thing is too strong or OU.

2) Magearna :magearna:

Agreeing with Omari P, this thing is still broken, as it was back in IoA meta. There is more counterplay than there was previously, I will admit. However, I think the additions it got this gen still just push it over the edge. Worthy of a suspect, perhaps even before Urshifu-SS. Specs and Shift Gear + CM are my least favorite sets to run into on the ladder.

3) Spectrier :spectrier:

The horse is, in my opinion, an uncompetitive Pokemon. In a similar vein to Zygarde last gen, it both excels with just one move, and has numerous viable sets to overcome it's counterplay. I have been running a lot of scarf recently, and finding great success. It's an amazing cleaner, akin to a Scarf Vish. However, if I ever got sick of Blissey, I could very easily run Sub + Disable. If I ever got sick of sucker punch, Sub + NP. It's gross, and I feel bad even using this mon. Specs and Scarf, which are its best sets (I think), do not reward skillful play. They reward mindlessly pivoting into this monster, where a good matchup is a winning matchup. It requires running a Sp. Def Dark type, or a Blissey on most teams, generally speaking. I'm not a fan and would like it out of OU. I do admit that this one is the shakiest of my three picks for a suspect. I hold that it should be at least looked at, as I'm sure the council is doing.

--------

That being said, we did just have a suspect on Pheromosa. So I understand if the council wants to take some time to assess the metagame and let it develop. I'm only a mid-ladder player after all. I have faith that they will be open about what is happening, and consider what people are saying in the community, as they have clearly done to this point in gen 8.
 
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I don't know whether this will get deleted due to my general lack of experience compared to other players here, but I would still like to say I support a suspect test of all three Urshifu, Spectrier and Magearna.

Urshifu :- Wicked Blow is a broken move in itself. It doesn't matter that Landorus - T switched in. Wicked Blow doesn't care about it. Add in a choice band boost and you have a pretty broken move. I don't think as broken as Thousand Arrows, nor is Urshifu as broken as Zygarde, but still broken. Clefairy and Fini fear Poison Jab. I used to have Scarf Lele on my team to revenge kill it. But that's where the problem came. I have to sack something to bring it in. If the opponent predicts the switch, then Wicked Blow KO'es my Lele. Then I have to use High Jump Kick on my Cinderace, which takes Zen headbutt and Sucker Punch from his moveset (Pyro Ball, U turn and Gunk Shot are necessary on a Cinderace for me), meaning Toxapex walls it all day. Also, most Urshifu's are paired with Spectrier (another mon I will talk about later) which means High Jump Kick is not as safe as I would like. What I can derive from this is that Urshifu forces 50/50's that are (unfairly) in the favor of whoever is using Urshifu. I can't switch in, Urshifu kills whoever is in, I send in my revenge killer, Urshifu switches out to a counter to my revenge killer, double switch and Urshifu is in. (I know because I have used Urshifu this way many times, and have been on the recieving end as well). And Sucker Punch makes revenge killing all the more harder. The cost of sacking mon to bring Urshifu in always lesser than the cost of sacking a mon to bring his check in. Urshifu will KO whoever you send in on the switch. Which is why I would support a suspect test (even if I'm not sure I will be getting the reqs). All this and I didn't even mention Future Port support, which takes care of it's only reliable counter, Buzzwole.

Spectrier :- Probably the least broken mon out of the three in the spotlight. But broken, I feel, nonetheless. While I will admit that I have never been swept by it, I also admit that I was lurking the forums for month before stepping in to play SS OU, and anytime a threat list came up, these three were on the top of it. Which made me start building a team with a Spectrier check who doesn't die to Urshifu easily (Mandibuzz), but loses to specs Magearna. I feel these three have enough of a broken ring attached to them on their own, but paired together, they make life worse for innocent players. Spectrier's best sets to me are both Specs and Scarf. Scarf makes revenge killing more difficult(and if you run scarf, you should be smart enough to not stay in on a Bisharp who is obviously carrying Sucker Punch) while Specs dent even resists. And no one wants to switch in consistently on a specs boosted shadow ball if they are not immune to it. Heatran dies to Mud Shot and gives it a free +1, thanks to renamed Soul Heart. Blissey can switch in but has to use Shadow Ball to break subs and if he is Sub + Disable, congrats. Spectrier will set up both sub and wreck havoc from behind. Will - O - Wisp allows it to cripple some of it's physical checks. But the above mentioned Bisharp is a pretty good check as I always end up predicting a sub or WoW and go for Knock off instead of Sucker Punch, then conveniently Spectrier tries to attack and gets KO'ed by Sucker Punch. While I know that using our experience isn't a valid argument, this is just to show that Bisharp does check it. But it is threatened by a Will - O Wisp so your check is permanently crippled, and is an open invitation for Urshifu to switch in and wreck havoc. As I said, they are great on their own, but their combination is exponentially more threatening.

Magearna :- While I admitted on the SQSA thread just today that I don't always understand how the EV's of bulky mon works, this one I have used to the most success. More so than both Urshifu and Spectrier, and would strongly support it's suspect test. The only way I kill opposing Magearnas is to play like HO on my Balance team and quickly switching in to my Cinderace to scare it out or KO it (of course, it's after I sack a mon to find out whether it's spec or AV or Shift Gear). Magearna, is one mon who can be seen as a real troll mon because as soon as I lure a heatran with my Cinderace (Baiting a Banded Pyro ball but going for the High Jump Kick and KO'ing), Shift Gear + Calm Mind just runs rampant and plays with the feeling of many people. Outside of Unaware Clefable (which for some reason I am seeing a lot less of), no one seems to counter(or even revenge kill lol) this set after a Shift gear + few Calm Minds, thanks to - A) Resisting most priority and B) Having a weak but still reliable after a few Calm Mind recovery in Draining Kiss. Even at 30 - 35 %, it isn't KO'ed by a Grassy Glide from Banded Rillaboom (mine is 252Def/252SpD/4HP, Timid) and recovers good amount of health with Draining Kiss at +2, which isn't hard to get on a defensive build. Specs set is another set which can severely dent teams with boosted Fleur Cannon and slow pivot with Volt Switch. It has amazing bulk and arguably the best typing defensively. Weakness policy sets are also a good on Shift Gear + 3 Attack sets but I have played around it while using neutral hits at first then going for the super effective hit if I'm not sure that it will be OHKO. Assault Vest provides Mag with immense special bulk and you are better off not trying to attack it from the special side while Fleur Cannons are blasting holes. Overall, I feel Mag is the most broken mon out of the three.

I am sure these three will be tested. Pheromosa is gone. After these three are (hopefully) gone, the meta will be much more better I feel as some Pokemon that were completely overshadowed before will see some usage and more diverse teams will be seen. And I don't think this will lead to a slippery slope as the next best thing is Cinderace, which while great, is not broken in my opinion.

Hope my post wasn't repeating what others have said.

EDIT :- I know I said that the horse is the least problematic out of the the three, but it's still so stupid that I sweeped a team in the 1600's (it's somewhat low but still) when I held the wrong item. The team did have a dark resist and an Urshifu but still got destroyed. Funnier when we consider that my phone autocorrected Leftover as Level Ball, and I was still able to trap his Urshifu in Sucker Punch/Wicked Blow mind games and picked off the members one by one.
 
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I don't know about you guys, but I've personally never been this excited/motivated to partake in a suspect test, even though I know the ban is almost guaranteed. I personally think Urshifu was worse than Pheromosa, and possibly the most obnoxious mon to build around in my most recent memory, even worse than Gen 6 Gothitelle.

If it can't be quickbanned, than so be it, lets get this suspect test going so I can finally don't have to dedicate 4 slots on my team to counter ace/urshifu/magearna/spectrier.
Something important that I'd like to point out the fact that very little checks to the mons you mentioned (Ace, Mage, Urshifu, Spectrier) overlap with one another, which is what makes them so annoying. Honestly most of the times one's check actually makes you weak to the other three.
 

Jaajgko

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The metagame is in a weird situation rn where many top mons are restricting teambuilding a lot, and it's a bit hard to pinpoint which one should be banned. I think Ace and Magearna gained a bit more counterplay in this meta and are probably fine for now. Spectrier can be very underwhelming in some matchups, and we've seen in Smogon Tour that even against no ghost resist, shadow ball being only 80 BP means it's not winning that easily. I think the one that sticks out the most and that I think we should consider suspecting next is Urshifu. It's probably the mon with the least counterplay rn and trying to deal with it in the teambuilder often leads to having issues with other threats. Banning it may result in allowing more options for the threats I mentioned earlier (except for Cinderace which has a little bit of overlapping with it). For example, Pex would be able to run SpD sets more often, and serve as a nice check to Specs Mag and Spectrier, bulky Hydreigon and Tyranitar would be more viable as Spectrier answers, due to them being passive against Urshifu, and both usually run Ground Coverage for Heatran so Mag is not a problem in that regard. Calm Clef could even be an option without Urshifu. Blissey and Ferro can also have an easier time in the tier without Urshifu. And not being pressured into running a fairy type on every team generally makes handling the rest easier.
But maybe the problem is elsewhere, maybe banning Magearna and Cinderace like in Pre-Dlc resolves the issues. In any case, I think the metagame needs some improvement in the form of a suspect test before SPL.
Also, I've found NP Tornadus to be quite a big issue for bulky builds, as usual counterplay to setup sweepers like toxic or chip damage are rendered only slightly effective due to Regenerator + Boots. I feel like without running Rotom, Zapdos, or Tapu Koko, I always expose myself to this monster if it doesn't miss, because you never know what it's gonna run. Sometimes you think your Mag or Aegislash can deal with it but you end up taking a +2 Heat Wave and die, sometimes you try to status or haze it but it uses taunt. On top of that, many of the scarfers and faster mons are not able to OHKO it, which makes it hard to revenge kill given that it has Regenerator and Boots to help it stay at 100%. I know it hasn't been particularly winning as much rn, but as the meta will become slower and bulkier, I think this thing is gonna become an even bigger threat, and get even more setup opportunities. Not suggesting it should get suspect tested soon, but I want to bring attention to it and discuss its counterplay outside of electric types.
 
I would like to second the above post, Spectrier definitely doesn't feel nearly as problematic as either Urshifu or Magearna. There are a lot of solid dark types in the tier (Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar) that fit into a lot of teams naturally and unlike other problematic mons its counters do not really depend on set, Sub Disable is pretty gimmicky and generally inferior except for messing up with Blissey, but even then it leaves the horse more counterable by other means as it can't spread status. To me it is pretty similar to Blace last gen, the only difference is Spectrier is faster and bulkier on special side, while Blace is stronger and packs secondary stab; both have 3 pretty much the same sets (sub CM, scarf, specs) and the same ability. Most importantly i have found both to be generally hard to fit onto teams both gens. Magearna and Shifu fit into many teams from HO to balance, while fitting Spectrier is much harder because of its selfish nature. I am not trying to sound as if i think Spectrier is garbage, but i think it is much easier to both deal with and isn't just something you can slap on every team and has solid offensive/defensive counterplay despite limiting teambuilder somewhat.
 
Just a few sets I'd like to share and get your opinions on...

Name: Choice Specs
Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower

Set Notes: I'll work on some later.

This one is niche so prepare
Name: Idk
Heatran @ Power Herb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ancient Power
- Flash Cannon
- Magma Storm
- Solar Beam
 
This isnt a post to push for a suspect immediately, even tho I kinda want that I understand the drawbacks.

This post is to ask - what are the arguments for NOT banning Urshifu?
 

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