Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
If a mon that abuses Boots is also broken, then just ban the mon. No need to ban boots and then make Moltres hit an even bigger low. Whether or not Torn-T is too much for the metagame is debatable but it does have some counters like Zapdos, Koko, and Zera along with a few good checks/soft checks like Specs Pult, Slowking, Blissey, Weavile, etc. However there is an argument that Torn p much forces you to run these mons, but this is something for another day. Also didn’t I just list a good number of checks and counters to Volc? More on that later.



I believe what Musique was referring to was Gren in Gen 6, not Gen 7. ORAS Gren was very similar to Ace. Both have great coverage, the same ability, and were fast asf.

Musique brought up Scyther as an argument on Boots being unhealthy. Boots are supposedly too much for the metagame yet shit like Ninjask and Noivern can hardly even scratch OU. For a move, ability, or item to be broken, it has to make a garbage mon into an uncompetitive mess. (Gothitelle, Glalie, Dugtrio, etc). You missed the point Muisque and everyone else was trying to bring up.



What point exactly? These two mons play differently. One is a breaker with Roost for longevity, the other is an offensive pivot with high powered moves and a great speed tier.

Also wtf are you talking about in regards to Volc? I straight up listed 14 good checks and counters to Volcarona. All of these mons are highly meta relevant with most of them being Top 20 or Top 10 material respectively.

Yes Boots made some mons better/way better in the metagame, but it didn’t break these mons. Ace prob would’ve still gotten banned even if Boots weren’t in the game. Remember Mence from DPPT? Remember Torn-T and Thundy from BW? Remember the monstrocity that was Mega-Mence? All these mons are rock weak but guess what, they all got banned. They had banworthy traits that pushed them to Uber material. Even if you take away Ace’s boots you still only have five fucking counters to it in the whole game. Lando and Chomp will still get worn down quickly especially since Ace would be able to run LO/Band now. Slowbro is U-Turn bait, and Hippo is 2HKOd after rocks in an alternate timeline where LO Ace is a thing. It means run Pex or die. To put it simply, Boots added to Ace’s brokenness, but even without it Ace is still broken cause a reminder that it has only five counters in the whole game. Torn and Slowbro being broken is up to debate, and if they are then simply ban them instead of Boots. I know for a fact Mandi and Koko aren’t breaking the game with boots equipped.
As I said earlier, boots made dangerous mons that much more difficult to deal with but that doesn't necessarily mean they're broken. Cinderace was the only exception since boots removed its one down side. How many times do I have to repeat this god damn sentence?

So what point am I when making these comparisons? Just give me a yes or no as this point is rather simple. In fact, just give a like if you're answer is yes or haha if no. Do you want dangerous mons like Zard Y to come in unscathed over the course of the entire battle?

Oh and that Scyther thing, go read that policy review that FInch posted a while back and there was a post that specifically said boots made Scyther near unbearable. Just because a certain mon can't break into ou doesn't necessarily mean that the point doesn't stand

Yes you listed all those checks but that's it, they're checks. You do realize that if pokemon x checks pokemon y, then y can still very feasibly beat x on its own? Do you think Garchomp or Lando will be able to check Volcarona if they're both taking minor chip damage every time they come in? You know the answer. They won't as sooner or later, they will be put in range of Volcarona's +1 stabs

This is the last post I'm gonna make about this topic so just answer the question I asked in the second paragraph as that was the main point of why I brought up boots in the first place
 

Finchinator

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This back and forth is growing painful. Let's move on.

A firm reminder that this thread is for everyone and after a couple of go-arounds, it is best to let others express themselves before you interject on the same topic. You can state your point sufficiently in the first couple of posts to where not much more needs to be said.
 
I agree with Finch. There is def room for Boots discussion, but it’s starting to get over bloated.

Instead of another post about Boots I want to showcase this spread for NP Torn.

A241676A-4AF5-4E53-BF76-E881E3E88BBE.gif

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 116 HP / 36 SpA / 196 SpD / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast/Heat Wave
- Knock Off/Substitute/Taunt​

One underlooked aspect about the Ace ban was that it gave more freedom for Torn to play with different spreads. I wanted to find a way to keep some of the offensive power of NP Torn while making it a better at pivoting into things like it’s Defog sets, so this is the spread I came up with. The 160 Sped evs are for outspeeding Kart and the 36 SpA evs are for OHKOing offensive Landorus after a NP. Even without max SpA investment, it’s Hurricanes still sting quite alot. The 116 HP and 196 SpD evs lets it accomplish a few things.

-Live non-Specs Koko’s Thunderbolt and Timid Kyurem’s Ice Beam at full if it’s Specs was Knock’d Off prior

-Avoid the 2HKO from Glowking’s Sludge Bomb

-Turns the 3HKO from the Slowtwins’ Scald into a non-guaranteed 4HKO

-Avoids the OHKO from Banded Mamo’s Ice Shard and Modest Specs Pult’s Draco at full. Also means if Pult gets Knock’d, it never 2HKOs at full

-Avoids the 3HKO from Blissey’s Seismic Toss

-Checks CM Fini

-Avoids a 2HKO from SpD Tran’s Magma Storm at full

-If Torn loses its Boots and switches into rocks at full, it lives Timid Sub-Roost Kyurem’s Freeze Dry, letting you potentially either break the sub or remove it’s boots with Knock

It also lets Torn take better hits from stuff like Rillaboom, Corv, Zapdos, etc. The idea with this spread is similar to the spread for Sub-CM Spect before it was banned which let it’s Sub tank certain hits from mons after they are burnt. I love this spread since it gives it better weight as a Regen pivot and as a breaker by combining the best of both worlds. It also makes Torn even harder for Balance teams to deal with. Definitely give it a shot if you can.

252 SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 264-312 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Electric Terrain: 276-326 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

176 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 109-130 (33.2 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after poison damage

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 76-91 (23.1 - 27.7%) -- 78.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 259-306 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 260-308 (79.2 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 261-308 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 116 HP Tornadus-Therian: 100-100 (30.4 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 120-142 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

200 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 198-234 (60.3 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 36 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 319-376 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Finchinator

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Do you think it is worth dipping to 349Spe and not being able to out-speed base 110's? That's often a benchmark I try to hit with TornT, but I guess I haven't seen much of the lati twins lately.
It's not worth being slower than the Lati twins and Gengar, imo. The likelihood of running into one of those is just enough to where a few extra EVs are worth it.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
I agree with Finch. There is def room for Boots discussion, but it’s starting to get over bloated.

Instead of another post about Boots I want to showcase this spread for NP Torn.

View attachment 320774
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 116 HP / 36 SpA / 196 SpD / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast/Heat Wave
- Knock Off/Substitute/Taunt​

One underlooked aspect about the Ace ban was that it gave more freedom for Torn to play with different spreads. I wanted to find a way to keep some of the offensive power of NP Torn while making it a better at pivoting into things like it’s Defog sets, so this is the spread I came up with. The 160 Sped evs are for outspeeding Kart and the 36 SpA evs are for OHKOing offensive Landorus after a NP. Even without max SpA investment, it’s Hurricanes still sting quite alot. The 116 HP and 196 SpD evs lets it accomplish a few things.

-Live non-Specs Koko’s Thunderbolt and Timid Kyurem’s Ice Beam at full if it’s Specs was Knock’d Off prior

-Avoid the 2HKO from Glowking’s Sludge Bomb

-Turns the 3HKO from the Slowtwins’ Scald into a non-guaranteed 4HKO

-Avoids the OHKO from Banded Mamo’s Ice Shard and Modest Specs Pult’s Draco at full. Also means if Pult gets Knock’d, it never 2HKOs at full

-Avoids the 3HKO from Blissey’s Seismic Toss

-Checks CM Fini

-Avoids a 2HKO from SpD Tran’s Magma Storm at full

-If Torn loses its Boots and switches into rocks at full, it lives Timid Sub-Roost Kyurem’s Freeze Dry, letting you potentially either break the sub or remove it’s boots with Knock

It also lets Torn take better hits from stuff like Rillaboom, Corv, Zapdos, etc. The idea with this spread is similar to the spread for Sub-CM Spect before it was banned which let it’s Sub tank certain hits from mons after they are burnt. I love this spread since it gives it better weight as a Regen pivot and as a breaker by combining the best of both worlds. It also makes Torn even harder for Balance teams to deal with. Definitely give it a shot if you can.

252 SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 264-312 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Electric Terrain: 276-326 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

176 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 109-130 (33.2 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after poison damage

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 76-91 (23.1 - 27.7%) -- 78.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 259-306 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 260-308 (79.2 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 261-308 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 116 HP Tornadus-Therian: 100-100 (30.4 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 120-142 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

200 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 198-234 (60.3 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 36 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 319-376 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Do you think it is worth dipping to 349Spe and not being able to out-speed base 110's? That's often a benchmark I try to hit with TornT, but I guess I haven't seen much of the lati twins lately.
I reran the calcs with a slightly different set (116 HP / 36 SpA / 184 SpD / 172 Spe ) that outspeeds base 110s. Another reason this is better is it can outspeed adamant Weavile, although that's quite rare.
Differences:
Non-Specs Koko now has a slight chance to KO you from full (not a big deal since.... why are you using Torn for this? anyway it's only a 6.3% chance)
Slowbro has a higher (still not 100%) chance to 4hko with Scald (78.4% vs 91.9%)


252 SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 266-314 (81 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Electric Terrain: 278-330 (84.7 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

176 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 111-132 (33.8 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after poison damage

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 78-93 (23.7 - 28.3%) -- 91.9% chance to 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 262-310 (79.8 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 260-308 (79.2 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 263-312 (80.1 - 95.1%) -- not a KO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 116 HP Tornadus-Therian: 100-100 (30.4 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 121-144 (36.8 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage

200 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 116 HP / 184 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 200-236 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Conclusion: just use this slightly bulkier spread lol

edit: 658greninja pointed out that only 168 speed was needed. Thus, the spread is
EVs: 120 HP / 36 SpA / 184 SpD / 168 Spe
This does not change anything (except Slowbro now has a slightly lower chance to 4hko). 172 speed might be still worth it to outspeed the nearly-irrelevant adamant Weavile (or, eventually, things that speedcreep the previous set) - doesn't matter much either way
 
Last edited:

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
So, I thought about changing bulky torn's spread, and looks like the simple spread below works fantastically:

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 88 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Defog
- Knock Off

Speed is for base 110s, ofc. Thanks to 658greninja for pointing out that I was crazy and you don't need 172 speed.
This spread hits all the benchmarks that my above spread does (except koing lando-T at +2.. since that's kinda a pointless calc for defensive torn ngl, considering it could have stone edge etc), except it now has a 0.4% chance of dying to spdef heatran, which is def not a big deal.
Koko still has a small chance to kill, but it's even more pointless to use this mon against it lol- can't even heat wave.
This spread also gives better physical defense.
(Note that moving the 36 evs in the previous spread from spatk to defense would lead to noticeably worse defense than this spread).
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Electric Terrain: 306-362 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 294-348 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

176 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 123-145 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 85-102 (23.4 - 28.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 288-340 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 260-308 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 265-313 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- not a KO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Tornadus-Therian: 100-100 (27.6 - 27.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 135-159 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage

200 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 218-260 (60.2 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also, I don't think changing it to a spread with 172 speed would matter, but there's just no point (except to outspeed 168 speed Torn which frankly is not a problem)
edit: slight error in evs, calcs were right tho
 
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First post so no longer a full-time lurker anymore

Is there any hope for an offensive Moltres set to be decent? The concept of 3 attacks + roost set in something like fire blast, hurricane, and scorching sands. Still counters Heatran too and has enough speed to outspeed common base 70-80s.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
First post so no longer a full-time lurker anymore

Is there any hope for an offensive Moltres set to be decent? The concept of 3 attacks + roost set in something like fire blast, hurricane, and scorching sands. Still counters Heatran too and has enough speed to outspeed common base 70-80s.
There were a few mentions of it over in the VR when a Moltres drop was being discussed. Don't think it'd be super good, but certainly an option to look into.
 
First post so no longer a full-time lurker anymore

Is there any hope for an offensive Moltres set to be decent? The concept of 3 attacks + roost set in something like fire blast, hurricane, and scorching sands. Still counters Heatran too and has enough speed to outspeed common base 70-80s.
While I don't know from experience since I haven't used it, I feel like it has potential. It would need heavy team support though, cause losing those timbs really hurt. Perhaps a semi bulky spread with max SpA investment? Enough to outspeed Tran and the rest thrown into HP.

Now I'm kinda curious, might play around with this...
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
While I don't know from experience since I haven't used it, I feel like it has potential. It would need heavy team support though, cause losing those timbs really hurt. Perhaps a semi bulky spread with max SpA investment? Enough to outspeed Tran and the rest thrown into HP.

Now I'm kinda curious, might play around with this...
Buzzwole might be a better benchmark.
 
While I don't know from experience since I haven't used it, I feel like it has potential. It would need heavy team support though, cause losing those timbs really hurt. Perhaps a semi bulky spread with max SpA investment? Enough to outspeed Tran and the rest thrown into HP.

Now I'm kinda curious, might play around with this...
I would assume it would keep HDB, just like offensive Zapdos.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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If u run offensive Molt, I imagine you'd just go max Speed to outrun Exca/Rilla/ada Lando etc. Also what musiquepkmn said re: HDB unless you desperately wanted to run Specs for some bizarre reason.
 
Not asking in a derisive way bc I love heat in all its forms and know some high level players have experimented with it, but what are the benefits of running offensive Moltres over other offensive Fire types like Heatran, Volcarona, or even base Charizard on sun? The only thing I could think of is improving the matchup against opposing spdef Heatran, which makes sense to be fair but I feel like you concede a lot of raw power to do so, compared to the upside of those other mons. Additionally, Moltres's susceptibility to knock makes it harder to get consistent entry opportunities on common switch ins like Ferro and Rilla.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
Not asking in a derisive way bc I love heat in all its forms and know some high level players have experimented with it, but what are the benefits of running offensive Moltres over other offensive Fire types like Heatran, Volcarona, or even base Charizard on sun? The only thing I could think of is improving the matchup against opposing spdef Heatran, which makes sense to be fair but I feel like you concede a lot of raw power to do so, compared to the upside of those other mons. Additionally, Moltres's susceptibility to knock makes it harder to get consistent entry opportunities on common switch ins like Ferro and Rilla.
Good question- note that the raw power conceded is surprisingly little considering it's good 125 spatk stat.

TLDR: you're right.

Heatran is a huge threat rn, and countering it relatively easily is a Big Deal
 

AM

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First post so no longer a full-time lurker anymore

Is there any hope for an offensive Moltres set to be decent? The concept of 3 attacks + roost set in something like fire blast, hurricane, and scorching sands. Still counters Heatran too and has enough speed to outspeed common base 70-80s.
Welcome.

Offensive Heatran check (the big reason), pairs well with the usual archetypes it would always be under things like sand etc and its also pretty strong. Heatrans dont run rock coverage regularly because Moltres is borderline an unmon and doesnt get high enough usage to justify it over Flash/Earth Power on Spec/Scarf sets so in most cases Moltres covers it well.

Re some above things. Charizard only fits on sun and is mostly garbage and Heatran/Volcarona are better which everyone knows but both aren't a ground immune mon where the former is susceptible to Spikes, the other is a fire that normally loses to Heatran.

Moltres is a pretty garbage defogger anyways, so if you're using it might as well get a more reliable hazard remover to begin with then either 1. Go Offensive 2. Use another fire.

This is how the old builds I used the set looked like back when Cind/Mag were around. The pastes can be found in OU bazaar under a recent dump. You'll notice outside of Ttar/Exca combo Heatran can be annoying so Moltres works here over other fires in the tier.
:excadrill::tyranitar::glastrier::moltres::slowbro::amoonguss:
:excadrill::tyranitar::moltres::reuniclus::toxapex::tangrowth:
 
I feel that Moltres has potential but is held back by how many of its potential victims running Knock Off. All of the most viable Grass-types run it, some of them nearly always running it, leaving Moltres unable to switch into them as they'll all simply cripple it and then switch out. While Teleport support can help some, this move is somewhat telegraphed and thus teams without a solid Moltres switch-in (not that hard to prepare for though) will generally avoid switching their Grass-type into the Teleport user in the future. While theoretically this does mean that Moltres supports Pokemon like the Slow twins by discouraging their checks from switching into them, I still feel that Moltres' game-to-game performance is lacking. Offensive sets still have this same problem, though I'm interested to see the benefit that running Modest + 252 SpA may have on pressuring the switch-in for the Grass-type Pokemon's team. If you can flip the script and keep rocks off the field allowing Moltres to run a boosting item, I think it becomes absurdly threatening. I feel that's very questionable in viability though given how crippled Moltres currently is losing its HDB and how mediocre Moltres' speed tier is in this metagame.
 
IMO Moltres should go offensive and really leverage the fact that it has base 125 Special Attack (the same as Torn-T!) and great coverage in Hurricane + Fire STAB + Scorching Sands (i.e. Ground Scald). There's very little that actually wants to switch into that (even Tyranitar doesn't want to get burned on the switch, and it's not like Tyranitar can Pursuit trap). Specs grants loads of upfront power (can 2HKO fully-SpDef Pex after Rocks with Hurricane, and has a nearly 50% shot to do that without Rocks) but it's easier to switch around, while Life Orb lets Moltres run Roost more safely and actually hit switchins with the appropriate coverage. I feel if running Life Orb, Mystical Fire might be worth it over Fire Blast (on Specs sets) not just for the PP, but also because the SpA drop is helpful for whatever teammate you bring in next.

Yes not having Boots and being 4x weak to Rocks sucks - but teams with Moltres (and Volcarona and other 4xSR weak mons) should have good hazard removal anyways. And while base 90 Speed isn't amazing for an offensive threat, it's still decent and Moltres has good bulk if Rocks are off the field.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
While on the topic of Moltres, maybe it can even do something stupid like going physical with brave bird and flare blitz a la Talonflame with u turn to bait in Heatran and switch to an appropriate answer. It sill has a hundred attack and if Heatran is dead it can do agility in the last slot. It's still gonna need something like Corviknight or Tangrowth to handle the grass types and their favorite move in knock off
 
IMO Moltres should go offensive and really leverage the fact that it has base 125 Special Attack (the same as Torn-T!) and great coverage in Hurricane + Fire STAB + Scorching Sands (i.e. Ground Scald). There's very little that actually wants to switch into that (even Tyranitar doesn't want to get burned on the switch, and it's not like Tyranitar can Pursuit trap). Specs grants loads of upfront power (can 2HKO fully-SpDef Pex after Rocks with Hurricane, and has a nearly 50% shot to do that without Rocks) but it's easier to switch around, while Life Orb lets Moltres run Roost more safely and actually hit switchins with the appropriate coverage. I feel if running Life Orb, Mystical Fire might be worth it over Fire Blast (on Specs sets) not just for the PP, but also because the SpA drop is helpful for whatever teammate you bring in next.

Yes not having Boots and being 4x weak to Rocks sucks - but teams with Moltres (and Volcarona and other 4xSR weak mons) should have good hazard removal anyways. And while base 90 Speed isn't amazing for an offensive threat, it's still decent and Moltres has good bulk if Rocks are off the field.
Just to keep up the Molt discussion, I wouldn’t recommend Specs or LO Molt. These sets are extremely support reliant and doesn’t make use of the defensive utility it can provide even in a meta that doesn’t favor its traits. You can always remove the rocks but rocks will almost always be present in a game some way or another. Your hazard remover won’t always be there to remove the hazards whether they can’t safely switch in yet, or your defogger/Drill dies. With rocks up Molt can’t switch in until you remove them which limits the opportunities Molt has to break, so it’s better to go for consistency in this scenario. I made a spread of 252SpA/92SpD/164Sped with boots which let’s it avoid a 2HKO from +1 Bulkarona’s Psychic while outspeeding Timid Tran and Adamant Lando. You can also go for 104SpD and 152Sped which still outspeeds Tran but now it can live Specs Draco from Timid Pult. Molt was a shitty defogger anyways, so why not make use of that 125 SpA? Keep in mind Molt faces heavy competition from Tran and NP Torn while being unable to break past the rising Slowking, but it might have a niche as an offensive breaker with the ability to check Tran, Volc, and Ferro. Hydrei can check Tran but not the latter two. I think Molt has to go on the offensive if it wants to remain relevant in OU and yet it’s still hard to fit over the top breakers Kyurem and Lele.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
hello guys,

what i noticed is that :scizor: picked up in usage during the past couple of weeks in spl. its is pretty clear this pokemon is on a rise in tournament usage with a great offensive presence due to its great typing in bug/steel and its great offensive movepool in a stab bullet punch and packed up with swords dance this pokemon quickly will become a manace. the great typng makes it able to offensivly pressure rillaboom, which is really great at the moment and it can also pressure a lot of other current pokemon in the metagame including slowking, clefable, and kartana missing out on its neutral coverage in sacred sword. scizor really made an impact and paired with voltturn-cores it is not that difficult to pilot it on the field to get up a swords dance and i feel we will see more in the future on this pokemon.

another pokemon which made an impact is :slowking: it is very reliable in what it is supposed to do, pressuring with future sight and teleporting out, futureport on this pokemon has really caught up over the weeks, and it quickly shows a special wall is very appreciated on a plethora of teams, a special wall which in conjunction can help pressuring the opponent. slowking doesnt like strong pokemon such as landorus-t and garchomp, and zeraora but paired with ferrothorn, which can also spike tack for it, and other great threats it is really a force to recognize in 2 aspects, getting progress and checking strong special threats.

:tornadus-therian: is also a strong pokemon, especially its nasty plot-set caught up over the weeks with great coverage in focus blast or heat wave it is enabled to dent holes in the opposing team pretty easily in the late-game which it is able to clean up. the inaccuracy of its stab hurricane and its strongest coverage in focus blast might hurt it a little bit, but this gets compensated with just u-turning out, gaining regenerator recovery, and helping other teammates to gain or maintain momentum. tornadus-therian has the tools to make progress. furthermore its defensive defog-set is also capable of supporting its team altogether as with regenerator it has an ability to keep up the health to defog pretty reliably.

another pokemon i want to talk about is :rillaboom: this pokemon is really great right now and should not be underestimated at all, its offensive prowess is really great and grassy glide is a damn good priority move, coupled with superpower, knock off, and u-turn or swords dance this pokemon can reliably put pressure on opposing teams, the rise of corviknights usage hurts it a little, but with pokemon like zeraora, magnezone, or tapu koko it has the teammates to help vs corviknight and the less used skarmory. they also help versus mandibuzz.

:tapu lele: is such a great pokemon currently, its specs-set nukes when its best checks are weakened and i really think this pokemon will see a bright future in tournament games, as it has picked up alot - i also feel its other set in choice scarf is a great tool to have some sort of speed control combined with hard hitting psychic-type stabs under its terrain.

another pokemon which is out there making a name for itself is :nidoking: this pokemon recently sees a sort of a combeack again, sheer force life orb boosted stabs and coverage ain't no joke to switch into, and it has the offensive presence to put a lot of pressure on bulkier builds such as balance. sub and taunt versions alike are able to get things goings, sub makes revengekilling nidoking so much harder and is especially troublesome for balance to tackle, and i think we will see more of this pokemon in the future.

these are all the pokemon i wanted to talk about today as i feel they are really strong pokemon to consider currently alongside the rising :kyurem: and our ghosty-dragon :dragapult:.

i really wish you all a great day and a great rest of your weekend and thanks for reading!​
 
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pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
So, I built a new team the other day, starting from Future Sight Slowbro. The next thing that I figured might be good was Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, which is the topic of this post.
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike really appreciates the current metashifts with the main bulky waters being Slowking and Toxapex. Urshifu-RS with Slowbro Future Sight support is great at beating those.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What about the other intuitive option to beat it- fairy types?
Well, Fini and Clef are the only ones that are bulky that are good in the meta rn, and Fini has been falling off....


252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 101-119 (29.3 - 34.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
chonky damage

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
cant even swap in huh

Rillaboom takes a million from U-Turn (and good damage from CC/Surging too)

Add into this it's very solid speed stat of 97 and it's a terrifying wallbreaker. It destroys prominent defensive backbones such as Ferro+Pex+Heatran with ease. Aqua Jet and U-turn are also very useful. In many matchups, every time it comes in (esp with Future Sight support) it's taking a kill. It has decent bulk and can come in on Heatran. Slowbro's Teleport also enables it a lot.

You do have to watch out for rocky helmet/Static/Flame Body as well as work around your low pp on Surging Strikes.

At the end of the day, this pokemon really likes the current meta trends and takes advantage of them very well. It is extremely hard to swap into.

Replay I have that shows this off: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1294704195-b1xwpdtg4tomc7zyv3kom777h1v5lq6pw - Vs semistall, puts in work
 
Hey, I'm new here. As the name suggests, I'm not all that good, so maybe my thoughts are completely off on this. But looking back at the usage stats, the entire bottom half of the top 10 was filled with Pokemon who were used less, and that I think will be used more with the new bans. Rillaboom and Garchomp in particular have worked great for me as a duo to eventually break through physical walls, and I think to counter them Corviknight will continue to rise.

I do have an interesting thing that I've noticed; Hazards still are very important even in a heavy duty boots filled metagame, if for nothing else but to reveal items and what ability Clefable has.

Suffice to say, boots don't seem all that broken right now, and it seems a lot less aggravating now that I don't have to deal with Cinderace continually U-Turning and not taking hazard damage or even getting a knock off.
 
So the ban of Mag and Ace kinda revitalised the metagame for me and got me laddering again, and I want to talk about 2 of my favorite mons in the current metagame.


Might just be bias speaking, but Fini really feels like an auto include in any team I build. With the right set, Fini has a decent~amazing matchup against many of the stuff in A/A+/S. Many of the defensive threats become completely useless in the face of Taunt + Knock Off or Trick, whereas offensive threats all fold to the surprising amount of damage that the Scarf set can deal. Most notably, Dragapult who has seen a gigantic spike in usage fails to make any progress against Fini, and Scarfed Fini can just pop Dragapult before it can U-turn out.


Zeraora is back, and probably needs no introduction as the Ace before the Ace. While Zeraora obviously doesn't do as much breaking by itself when compared to Ace, it is still insanely difficult to catch and punish. There are many games where I can just lead Zeraora at team preview and never get punished because of it. Toxic on the last slot is easier to use than ever when it is no longer giving Magearna what is potentially a free switch-in.
 
Toxapex, Restalk Gyarados (a very good Mon), Mega Lati@s, Chansey, Victini, Garchomp, Rotom-H, Mega Altaria (with Cloud Nine pre-mega). Should I continue? Well, just with Toxapex is enough. Next question.
Restalk gyarados is nearly non existent in gen 7. Rotom heat and mega altaria are as non existent. Yes, zard y gets stopped by pex and chansey but that's like saying "oh just carry physdex pex/hippowdown and cinderace is easy to deal with". If you didn't have one of few specific special waalls, Zard y was absolutely a terrifying wallbreaker in SM OU.
 

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