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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Yea I don't agree with naga being QB'd over the others, thats just another case of the council doing their own thing and bet we won't be allowed a retest like ace did either
I think still naga has significantly more checks/counters that can stonewall it or delay it long enough to be offensively checked, than lando/kyu/and genesect combined, and it would've been better to remove those threats and see how naga fairs in a meta with them gone so the other shit doesn't have their hands as full. It might've still be broken but what the fuck is that bias to QB it over other stuff.. at least include them with the QB. IME latios has been more difficult to check just no one is running it atm lmao.
That being said, naga retest when?Ace wasted a month for one right before DLC drop anyway!
I think still naga has significantly more checks/counters that can stonewall it or delay it long enough to be offensively checked, than lando/kyu/and genesect combined, and it would've been better to remove those threats and see how naga fairs in a meta with them gone so the other shit doesn't have their hands as full. It might've still be broken but what the fuck is that bias to QB it over other stuff.. at least include them with the QB. IME latios has been more difficult to check just no one is running it atm lmao.
That being said, naga retest when?
That is Smogon's modus operandi lol. You kind of have to learn how to get used to it.
You can even lure them in quite well; it has access to a very colorful movepool with a 110 SPA. Before you scout it, it's actually pretty tricky to deal with.
I don't really understand this...what checks and counters are there? Aside from heatran/tyranitar/blissey with twave/av magearna...there really isnt anything else, and it's hard to actually offensively check it because of beast boost boosting its speed after a kill. I also imagine the council voted on other pokemon as well, though I do wish we got to see some of the votes like in lower tiers.
Anyway, to return to the the current metagame, I have been playing around with the combination of toxic spikes + sub cm suicune. Specifically, I am using nihilego to set my tspikes with this set:
Nihilego @ Black Sludge
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem
- Knock Off
Speed is for jolly garchomp. There might be a better set, but I really like knock off since you can bait in pex, and the combination of lack of black sludge recovery + burn from scald helps suicune a lot. Also, knock off is just broken in general this gen so...no reason not to run it.
Has anyone else had success with suicune? If there are any other toxic spikes setters you guys have used, or any other partners you really like using with suicune, please share! I think suicune has a chance to be an underrated pick this gen.
I wanna talk about this mon
Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Fiery Wrath
- Air Slash
This set is ripped from a blunder video, and while I don't know exactly what the spread is for, i've found it really useful as a sort of bulky pivot that can eventually be a wincon. It's a great status absorber that is also surprisingly strong and surprisingly bulky. This mon is very good at slowly defeating other fat mons, and can even serve as a half-decent check to pokes like lando-i and zygarde. Berserk comes into play quite a bit and makes beating defensive mons a bit easier.
Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Fiery Wrath
- Air Slash
This set is ripped from a blunder video, and while I don't know exactly what the spread is for, i've found it really useful as a sort of bulky pivot that can eventually be a wincon. It's a great status absorber that is also surprisingly strong and surprisingly bulky. This mon is very good at slowly defeating other fat mons, and can even serve as a half-decent check to pokes like lando-i and zygarde. Berserk comes into play quite a bit and makes beating defensive mons a bit easier.
I think suicune has potential in the tier and/or will have a lot more potential once the meta settles and moves away from HO spam. As a side note, isn’t this core shut down completely by Toxapex or do you have some tech on suicune?I don't really understand this...what checks and counters are there? Aside from heatran/tyranitar/blissey with twave/av magearna...there really isnt anything else, and it's hard to actually offensively check it because of beast boost boosting its speed after a kill. I also imagine the council voted on other pokemon as well, though I do wish we got to see some of the votes like in lower tiers.
Anyway, to return to the the current metagame, I have been playing around with the combination of toxic spikes + sub cm suicune. Specifically, I am using nihilego to set my tspikes with this set:
Nihilego @ Black Sludge
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem
- Knock Off
Speed is for jolly garchomp. There might be a better set, but I really like knock off since you can bait in pex, and the combination of lack of black sludge recovery + burn from scald helps suicune a lot. Also, knock off is just broken in general this gen so...no reason not to run it.
Has anyone else had success with suicune? If there are any other toxic spikes setters you guys have used, or any other partners you really like using with suicune, please share! I think suicune has a chance to be an underrated pick this gen.
First the new move it gets:
Dragon energy in combination with it's ability Dragon's Maw which provides a 2.25x boost (including STAB) creating a Pokémon with insane damage output that's only real comparison would be CB Dracovish with fishous rend (or Regieleki Rising Voltage). On trick room with specs it becomes an essentially fearsome Pokémon with no real switch-in if the opposing team does not have a fairy. In a meta as unstable as the current meta that is extremely offensive you can often find the opposing team to not have a fairy resulting in 3-6 kills being netted for the dragon. Even outside of trick room base 80 speed is pretty decent and can see it potentially getting some great kills as well on certain builds. Against opposing TR this speed is actually sometimes a benefit especially when the opposing Magearna is removed as it essentially one-shots all Pokémon on TR (other than gear and Hatterene). However, overall I believe its greatest strength is unlocked on trick room builds against matchups with offense that has no fairy. Also it should noted with its large 200 base health stat it usually is able to take at least one neutral hit and sometimes one super effective hit from full for clutch finishes.
Regidrago @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Ancient Power
- Dragon Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse / Explosion
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Ancient Power
- Dragon Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse / Explosion
Some Notable Calcs to appreciate this Pokémon more:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Genesect: 261-308 (92.2 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(I know Genesect is banned but it provides a good look that even steel resists aren't really resists against this Pokémon)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 501-591 (118.4 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 387-456 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 239-282 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 432-508 (126.6 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I could go on but basically the gist of it is is if its not Blissey or a relatively bulky Pokémon that resists or is fairy it will OHKO the Pokémon.
Some Decently High Ladder Replays and Analysis: (I wish I saved more because I did have one killing Heatran on high ladder from 74%):
Regidrago destroying webs Offense
In this replay as noted there is no fairy so Regidrago gets as many kills as it wants. In combination with Lunar Dance Cresselia it is able to get back to full to continue the assault and sweep.
Regidrago 6 kills against Offense
In this replay Regidrago gets 6 kills it should be noted that it is able to even kill porygon2 that was above 70% with dragon energy. Furthermore it is able to take a +3 sucker punch from Libero Cinderace to take it out and eventually clean with Dragon Energy again in combination with Lunar Dance Cresselia.
Regidrago cleans TR w/ Ancient Power
In this replay Regidrago takes advantage of its natural speed to out speed and clean at the end with Ancient Power (just a fun replay of it using a move other than Dragon Energy haha!)
Overall I just wanted to make this post to highlight a Pokémon that I feel has gotten very little attention in comparison to its electric brother as well as because I believe Regidrago has a decent niche in the current meta and is quite fun to play with! I'm also a sucker for nukes :)!
I hope everyone continues have fun with the new DLC and hope people continue to innovate with Pokémon that may be considered unviable upon first site! Have a good day everyone!!!
TLDR: Regidrago is fun and strong as hell and definitely should not be considered Guzzlord 2.0!
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Hmm nagadanel’s usage was actually pretty low
A knocked and burned toxapex can't beat suicune, as far as I know. This is suicune vs max spdef calm toxapex: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1211793998-rnvxlaw20rp5ui6kk6m37esjbh3oq45pw
Obviously, this situation may not be the most realistic because adding regenerator and other teammates makes things more complicated, but in terms of a pure 1v1 suicune should win (even easier vs physdef pex). On the team I'm using, I have lando I and magma/ep heatran to pressure toxapex as well, so that I don't have to rely on trying to 1v5 with suicune even when opposing toxapex is put into an unfavorable position. Toxapex has always been a thorn in suicune's side so if you guys have any more ideas for how to make this core more effective, let me know!
So, a bit of theory-moning before I try this set out. But I tried to figure out what a potential check to Lando-I, that can come in on anything fairly consistently might look like (outside of Cress). Unfortunately my first choice didn't have enough Sp Def. So here's Araquanid.
Araquanid @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Careful Nature
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Magic Coat
- Toxic
Essentially you are never 3HKOed by any of standard Timid Lando's moves, and you can always OHKO it back. You do unfortunately have to lose out on the 44 speed EVs run on standard webs spider to make sure you take 33.3% max from sludge wave. The leftover EVs are put into Attack to net you an OHKO on Lando a bit more consistently. You only outspeed Pelipper and negative speed nature Magearna with 8 speed EVs, so it's better to get some more oomph.
Araquanid @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Careful Nature
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Magic Coat
- Toxic
Essentially you are never 3HKOed by any of standard Timid Lando's moves, and you can always OHKO it back. You do unfortunately have to lose out on the 44 speed EVs run on standard webs spider to make sure you take 33.3% max from sludge wave. The leftover EVs are put into Attack to net you an OHKO on Lando a bit more consistently. You only outspeed Pelipper and negative speed nature Magearna with 8 speed EVs, so it's better to get some more oomph.
To clarify my point about toxapex:
If your opponent has a pex they can remove tspikes easily by switching in without worrying too much since suicune is slow to set up a sweep. They can then switch to whatever other answer they have to suicune without needing to take poison status and lose long term. If they don't have another answer to suicune then you would beat the pex 1v1 and win without needing tspikes in the first place. Just questioning the viability of nihilego, it's not very good imo but I could see it potentially working with suicune.
If you want to pressure pex more you can drop protect for extrasensory but it will probably be a detriment to you in every other game where you don't play pex lol
Usage =/= viability
... Although I do agree with you to an extent. While right now lando-I has been relatively manageable imo, kyub is so overbearingly powerful after a ddance its not even funny. It will rip your team apart and its not very hard for it to set up given its great natural bulk and near perfect boltbeam coverage.
Aside from that, I agree with the council's decision to QB naga. Once it gets going it's very hard to stop even with priority since its resistant/neutral to the most common priority moves. If it seems underwhelming, it is probably because heatran is being spammed by half the ladder as a necessity in order to deal with it and the other broken mons roaming ou.
i would agree but since you cant use mega in ou ss and blaziken normal speed stats is only 80 your gonna want that extra speed boosts or your never gonna be able to attack, also you dont need sword dance.
Yea I definitely don't think something should be banned strictly on viability. I was moreso saying that all 3 Naga, Lando-I, and Kyu-B are equally powerful enough to be at least considered for a ban. Given their much higher usage I would've considered them a priority if you want to clean up the meta buuut I guess council voted differently.
I was thinking of running a similar set (focusing on Rest Talk I mean) but I still no quite sure if G-Moltres would be that useful in OU. Maybe a niche pick, but not thay great imo.I wanna talk about this mon
Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Fiery Wrath
- Air Slash
This set is ripped from a blunder video, and while I don't know exactly what the spread is for, i've found it really useful as a sort of bulky pivot that can eventually be a wincon. It's a great status absorber that is also surprisingly strong and surprisingly bulky. This mon is very good at slowly defeating other fat mons, and can even serve as a half-decent check to pokes like lando-i and zygarde. Berserk comes into play quite a bit and makes beating defensive mons a bit easier.
Knock + Rocks dampens this badly. AlsoSo, a bit of theory-moning before I try this set out. But I tried to figure out what a potential check to Lando-I, that can come in on anything fairly consistently might look like (outside of Cress). Unfortunately my first choice didn't have enough Sp Def. So here's Araquanid.
Araquanid @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Careful Nature
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Magic Coat
- Toxic
Essentially you are never 3HKOed by any of standard Timid Lando's moves, and you can always OHKO it back. You do unfortunately have to lose out on the 44 speed EVs run on standard webs spider to make sure you take 33.3% max from sludge wave. The leftover EVs are put into Attack to net you an OHKO on Lando a bit more consistently. You only outspeed Pelipper and negative speed nature Magearna with 8 speed EVs, so it's better to get some more oomph.
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Araquanid: 239-283 (70.2 - 83.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is a really interesting mon, and another interesting set that I've seen being run (I don't know the spread since I only saw it a couple times) is weakness policy and agility. Come in on a U-turn or live a super effective move with its great bulk and you are in good shape.I wanna talk about this mon
Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Fiery Wrath
- Air Slash
This set is ripped from a blunder video, and while I don't know exactly what the spread is for, i've found it really useful as a sort of bulky pivot that can eventually be a wincon. It's a great status absorber that is also surprisingly strong and surprisingly bulky. This mon is very good at slowly defeating other fat mons, and can even serve as a half-decent check to pokes like lando-i and zygarde. Berserk comes into play quite a bit and makes beating defensive mons a bit easier.
I'm sorry but who in the world is running rock slide Landorus-I? Is there some secret tech I'm missing?
It's mainly to hit tornadus, but people have switched to gravity + earth power to hit ground immunities instead
I don't think I've seen a lot of discussion about Mence, as there are much more potent threats that have recently been released, but I'm trying it out on a rain team and getting a surprising amount of mileage. Boots and Hurricane were awesome additions, and it has a wide enough movepool to provide a lot of utility, even outside of rain. I've currently been running Hurricane, Hydro Pump, Earthquake, and Fire Blast, but it can work as a cleric with Intimidate, Wish, and Defog, or perhaps even good ol' MoxMence from BW. I'm going to try to get some high-quality replays to show it in action, but in the meantime, does anyone else have thoughts on it?
Knock + Rocks can be worked around, but I see your point.
Yeah it does get slaughtered by Rock Slide. I have yet to see a Lando running rock slide yet, so I forgot to consider it. Well, back to the drawing board I guess.
You mentioned them, now tell me there's more checks and counters for kyu-b and lando-i. I'm not arguing that naga is healthy, but the order in which we're dropping QBs just seems kinda strange considering naga has answers that are viable in the tier, while we're still figuring out lando/kyu (unless i'm missing something and they have their own stone walls/checks.). Like that list you mentioned is small, but latios's is even smaller lol.
Just makes more sense to drop QBs on the other titans and wait to see naga's place. Its hard to check naga or turn it into dead weight when kyu/lando-i/gene are also issues in teambuilder with no reliable counters, only wearing down naga's checks. I'm sure naga would still be strong as fuck but I disagree with the council that its the greater of the evils going on right now. I don't mind naga's ban just the decision process behind it is triggering, that thought process just makes no sense imo. QBs are powerful, so lets not just drop them in less than a week without much thought put into them unless there's literally nothing to think about (genesect).