Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
While I think most of us agree that both Magearna and Spectrier deserve to be at least suspected at one point, I would like to make an argument that suspecting Spectrier first would help stabilize the OU metagame better. Please keep in mind I am by no means a great player, so take this message with a grain of salt.
My reasoning is the following: the mons we use to check Magearna are mons we would use regardless. Things like Ferrothorn, Heatran, Galarian Slowking, Swampert, or more offensive checks like Cinderace or Excadrill would most likely still be very viable in a metagame without Magearna.
Of course, the only way to know for sure how a Magearna-less DLC2 metagame would be like is to actually play it. But compare Magearna checks to Spectrier checks such as Mandibuzz, Blissey, defensive Hydreigon, or even Obstagoon (I am not including Tyranitar because it can very easily get burned). Those mons would still be used, but not to the extent they are now. My point is that Magearna checks are, in my opinion, more core OU mons than Spectrier checks. Spectrier warps the metagame around him way more than Magearna does.
I would even go as far as to say it is more likely for Magearna not to be banned after Spectrier is banned than the opposite. They will probably both leave the tier eventually, but I think suspecting Spectrier first would bring us closer to a stable and balanced OU metagame than suspecting Magearna first.
Starmie has a very unique niche in OU: it can act as an offensive rapid spinner with recovery. I remember at some point in time, I got sick of getting rid of my own entry hazards just so that my Mega Charizard X can properly sweep (that was in Gen 7). However, the best Rapid Spinner in the tier, Excadrill, has no reliable recovery and isn't that bulky either. Starmie actually has decent bulk (more than Excadrill, though Excadrill has more resists) as well as offensive presence, thanks to good coverage options and a decent (though not great by any means) 100 SpA, backed by a blazing base 115 Spe. The above spread allows Starmie to outspeed 252+ base 110s, including Latios and Gengar. It can switch into Heatran's face and can threaten other common rockers like Landorus-T and Garchomp out. Starmie also has an excellent Water/Psychic typing as well as Natural Cure to help it stay alive for longer. Starmie struggles a bit in a metagame filled to the brim with Dark-types and Spectrier, but it can pull off its role just fine, and good switchins to the Dark-type is mandatory anyway in a metagame like this.
To summarize, Starmie is a solid niche hazard remover that is not completely passive and doesn't take away your own hazards. It can be a bit hard to fit onto teams, and suffers a bit from all the Dark-types, but it has a legitimate niche and it can fullfill it very well.
There is a 99% chance that I'm either wrong or should have said something that I didn't. Please point it out. Thanks for reading!
Starmie has a very unique niche in OU: it can act as an offensive rapid spinner with recovery. I remember at some point in time, I got sick of getting rid of my own entry hazards just so that my Mega Charizard X can properly sweep (that was in Gen 7). However, the best Rapid Spinner in the tier, Excadrill, has no reliable recovery and isn't that bulky either. Starmie actually has decent bulk (more than Excadrill, though Excadrill has more resists) as well as offensive presence, thanks to good coverage options and a decent (though not great by any means) 100 SpA, backed by a blazing base 115 Spe. The above spread allows Starmie to outspeed 252+ base 110s, including Latios and Gengar. It can switch into Heatran's face and can threaten other common rockers like Landorus-T and Garchomp out. Starmie also has an excellent Water/Psychic typing as well as Natural Cure to help it stay alive for longer. Starmie struggles a bit in a metagame filled to the brim with Dark-types and Spectrier, but it can pull off its role just fine, and good switchins to the Dark-type is mandatory anyway in a metagame like this.
To summarize, Starmie is a solid niche hazard remover that is not completely passive and doesn't take away your own hazards. It can be a bit hard to fit onto teams, and suffers a bit from all the Dark-types, but it has a legitimate niche and it can fullfill it very well.
There is a 99% chance that I'm either wrong or should have said something that I didn't. Please point it out. Thanks for reading!
Running this EV spread will allow you to always live +2 Jolly LO Flare Blitz from Blaziken, something you kind of need to be able to do as a Water-psychic type.
Starmie is in a bit of a weird spot. It reallly wants Flip Turn to be able to be an offensive pivot but then it would have to give up a Stab move, both of which are super important. For some reason it doesn't get regenerator (gamefreak you literally said it regenerates its limbs why would you do this to us), so it needs Recover, as with that pretty bad bulk it's not getting anywhere.
Starmie is bad Slowbro if Slowbro was actually Fastbro and could do a spin, that's a cool trick.
Running this EV spread will allow you to always live +2 Jolly LO Flare Blitz from Blaziken, something you kind of need to be able to do as a Water-psychic type.
Starmie is in a bit of a weird spot. It reallly wants Flip Turn to be able to be an offensive pivot but then it would have to give up a Stab move, both of which are super important. For some reason it doesn't get regenerator (gamefreak you literally said it regenerates its limbs why would you do this to us), so it needs Recover, as with that pretty bad bulk it's not getting anywhere.
Starmie is bad Slowbro if Slowbro was actually Fastbro and could do a spin, that's a cool trick.
Yeah thats a much better EV spread lol. Starmie indeed has some serious 4MSS, as aside from the four moves you want Flip Turn or Ice Beam (otherwise you can't really threaten Garchomp or Latios).
Fortunately for Starmie, Fastbro would probably have more BST than Volcarona, so GF is proooooooobably not going to make it. Also Nature Cure is an amazing ability because SO MANY hazard setters carries Toxic or Thunder Wave. Regenerator is obviously better tho.
Another post
I've been told that we don't do suspects during SPL so I'd like to advocate for a Spectrier quickban. I'll be talking about the Substitute set because it's by far the most problematic.
If this pokemon comes in in a position where it forces you to switch, the ways you can prevent it from taking a kill or straight up winning the game are extremely restricted. For the record, it forces out consistently burned Clefable (unless you're willing to go for absurd mindgames with moonblast on sub and knock on cm, which you need to get right at least thrice in a row), non-Fire type Cinderace, Garchomp (unless you're willing to risk earthquaking on will-o or toxicing on sub, which usually loses you the game if you get it wrong), non-Scarf Landorus-T (same comment as for Garchomp), Melmetal (unless it wants to take the burn and not kill back or risk Toxic on sub, which loses the game), Toxapex, Excadrill (same as for landorus-l and chomp ; note that the risk/reward is massively in favor of the spectrier player in the mindgames situations, as clicking substitute resets the bet), Slowbro, Corviknight, Moltres, Tyranitar (mindgames possible), etc. So it consistently forces out a ton of stuff, especially if you want to avoid mindgames that aren't in your favor.
So you switch out. But what do you switch to ? Blissey is the only decent mon that can consistently 1v1 when it comes in on Spectrier using Substitute. If someone told you Mandibuzz is a Spectrier check he lied, Mandibuzz easily loses the 1v1 and leaves the horse behind a sub as it can't break a sub when burned. Hydreigon gets burned the first time, and the second time it's 2hkoed by Hex after Calm Mind. Obstagoon is niche and gets chipped. Not only is Blissey the only option, but it also has to ppstall the Spectrier, unless it runs the ridiculous Shadow Ball. I'd say the only other consistent counterplay to Spectrier is U-Turn Mandibuzz or Hydreigon + something that hits it behind the Sub, like Infiltrator Dragapult, Scarf Urshifu-R or Exploud. Again, any other situation is a kill, and potentially the game ; so if you don't have one of these two you have a horrible Spectrier matchup.
Let's take the most recent teams posted in bazaar as an example. https://pokepast.es/2e1ef8dc91a603d3 loses to Spectrier as it forces out Slowbro, Scizor, Jirachi or Hippowdon. https://pokepast.es/102203c9bb88ef24 has U-Turn Mandibuzz + Infiltrator Dragapult. https://pokepast.es/13b0872b165fa737 loses. https://pokepast.es/5d2fd188668c60ea Spectrier will struggle here as the team is heavily prepped for it, but it can still force out Clefable or Gastro or Knocked Lando and do its stuff. https://pokepast.es/167e66931207ef33 6-0d. https://pokepast.es/bceddfc695d6bbb5 Cool team but it will struggle a lot after Hydreigon is burned, especially if Rocks are up. https://pokepast.es/acdab3c34724048e 6-0d. https://pokepast.es/73cbecb0baf1687c 6-0d but cool team otherwise. https://pokepast.es/102203c9bb88ef24 mandi + pult. Etc.
"Why does Spectrier not win every game where the opponent doesn't have Blissey nor Mandi + Pult, then ?" Because the player using it got outplayed, or his team doesn't give Spectrier enough opportunities to use Sub. HO and very aggressive play obviously don't let Spectrier Sub and spam the other moves easily, but the mon still provides good speed control, and Will-O-Wisp is usually a pain for HO.
Tbh I'm very surprised this pokemon is being discussed, as it's so obviously broken and restricting in the builder. I think I would've advocated for quickban rather than suspect even with no SPL going on. And it's not even like Blissey can't be crippled ; it can be crippled in many ways actually, be it Trick Magearna or Taunt Heatran or Knock Off + T-Spikes. Not like you're risking a 5v6 situation when using Spectrier.
Teleport + recover let's starmie bring in pokemon safely and has better longevity than regieleki. I'd only run regieleki if you want better offensive pressure from your screens setter
Yo. I don't really post here often but the OU metagame for me feels weird right now. I've been focusing more on RU/NU as those metagames feel a lot more complete and there's more freedom in teambuilding there. With Urshifu being banned now, it feels like a lot more things have opened up for the metagame but at the same time, there's no freedom in teambuilding at the moment in my opinion. I don't even know what to build or have motivation to build for this meta, but I still want to know what's really happening with the metagame.
MY FAVORITE MON TO USE IN OU: Tapu Lele
Sup guys I'm gonna be making this quick post cause I think lele is pretty underrated rn. It has a low 6% percentage and there's barely any counters to it. I mean you can run specs, scarf, or life orb and it will still be good. Honestly lele has very little switch-ins, the only good switch-in to lele is Magearna which still takes like 45-57% from a focus blast. Personally Ive been using scarf cause it just destroys every matchup, people have been using a calm mind set but I don't like it since lele will get revenge killed so there's not really a point imo. Specs is crazy powerful and life orb is too and allows you to switch moves. Its pretty weak to steel types if its not running focus blast and even if it is focus blast has 70% accuracy and misses quite a lot. Dark types can revenge it too but a moonblast will take care of that. I would name pokemon but besides Magearna there's not really anything that can switch on it's scarf set. Tapu Lele true weakness is locking itself in the wrong move which sucks and lets them pivot out, still does crazy amounts of damage.
This is my favorite set, psyshock hits Blissey (which is why I didn't put it as a reliable check) Scarf is really fast with 475 speed and just destroys everything. I'm kinda getting repetitive but it is true, after Magearna gets banned somewhere in the future tapu lele will go crazy. Also Focus blast over thunderbolt cause it hits Magearna and any water/flying types just get ohko=2hkoed by its psychic stab.
TEAM OPITIONS: Tapu lele is pretty good by itself as a wallbreaker and switches things out which can be used as a advantage. Its ability Psychic surge allows it to be paired up with seed sweepers like Hawlucha. Alakazam is also a nice teammate or anything using Expanding force. Psychic terrain making priority moves not work makes it so that other sweepers like Scale Shot Garchomp or shell smash Polteageist (which I've been using myself lol) can be reliable sweepers and not die to priority. Nothing else to say as it works with alot of teams and provides good wallbreaking.
In conclusion, I think you should try Tapu Lele in this meta cause its way too strong with scarf. Life orb or specs is also nice but scarf is better imo.
Please tell me what I could have Improved about this post.
So you switch out. But what do you switch to ? Blissey is the only decent mon that can consistently 1v1 when it comes in on Spectrier using Substitute. If someone told you Mandibuzz is a Spectrier check he lied, Mandibuzz easily loses the 1v1 and leaves the horse behind a sub as it can't break a sub when burned. Hydreigon gets burned the first time, and the second time it's 2hkoed by Hex after Calm Mind. Obstagoon is niche and gets chipped. Not only is Blissey the only option, but it also has to ppstall the Spectrier, unless it runs the ridiculous Shadow Ball. I'd say the only other consistent counterplay to Spectrier is U-Turn Mandibuzz or Hydreigon + something that hits it behind the Sub, like Infiltrator Dragapult, Scarf Urshifu-R or Exploud. Again, any other situation is a kill, and potentially the game ; so if you don't have one of these two you have a horrible Spectrier matchup.
This is a little reductive IMO, and considering you're calling for a direct quickban, not including the other checks to this set feels somewhat problematic.
There's also Taunt + Protect Heatran, who discourages mindless wisping, prevents endless setup spam, and generally wins the 1v1 even if it comes in on a CM or a Sub (with good magma luck):
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 127-150 (32.9 - 38.8%)
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 106-126 (28.7 - 34.1%) - always breaks sub at +1 and 3HKOs when residual damage is taken into account
Fini also does relatively well, stopping grounded members of its team from getting wisped and taunting it out of setup opportunities. Fini is very weak to Tspikes, though, and has problems with breaking Spect's sub. Specs also does a lot to both Heatran and Fini.
Thankfully, there's also someone that doesn't even have to care about that: Crunch+Rest ttar.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 85-101 (21 - 25%)
0 Atk burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 162-192 (43.9 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
If the burn is a long-term problem, just rest it off. Even if a sleeping ttar comes in on spectrier, it still wins the 1v1. sand is pretty good
Also, bulky Zarude can jungle heal off will-o-wisps and always breaks its sub even when burned:
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 192 SpD Zarude: 141-166 (40.1 - 47.2%)
64 Atk burned Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 166-196 (44.9 - 53.1%)
This is a little reductive IMO, and considering you're calling for a direct quickban, not including the other checks to this set feels somewhat problematic.
There's also Taunt + Protect Heatran, who discourages mindless wisping, prevents endless setup spam, and generally wins the 1v1 even if it comes in on a CM or a Sub (with good magma luck):
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 127-150 (32.9 - 38.8%)
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 106-126 (28.7 - 34.1%) - always breaks sub at +1 and 3HKOs when residual damage is taken into account
Fini also does relatively well, stopping grounded members of its team from getting wisped and taunting it out of setup opportunities. Fini is very weak to Tspikes, though, and has problems with breaking Spect's sub. Specs also does a lot to both Heatran and Fini.
Thankfully, there's also someone that doesn't even have to care about that: Crunch+Rest ttar.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 85-101 (21 - 25%)
0 Atk burned Tyranitar Crunch vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 162-192 (43.9 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
If the burn is a long-term problem, just rest it off. Even if a sleeping ttar comes in on spectrier, it still wins the 1v1. sand is pretty good
My goal was to focus on reliable and consistent Sub Spectrier counterplay.
- Heatran is definetly not consistent at dealing with Spectrier ; if it comes in on Sub and Taunts on Calm Mind, it will lose the 1v1 in an overwhelming majority of cases. Not only that, but also Heatran is easier to chip than Spectrier and will get knocked against proper Spectrier team support.
- If Tapu Fini comes in on Substitute and Taunts on Calm Mind is easily loses the 1v1. I agree that Misty Terrain is helpull, which I should've mentioned, but you can't call that reliable counterplay when it loses the duel every time. Usually Spectrier just waits for the terrain to end and burns after.
- Crunch + Rest Ttar gets Wisped for free as it Crunches the Sub, making it a useless weight until it Rests and wakes up, virtually giving 3-4 free turns to your opponent. It also needs Leftovers and being healthy, otherwise it will lose the 1v1. I guess it's niche counterplay but I'm not that tempted.
- Zarude works indeed. I've not seen it at all so I believe it's kinda niche, but I can definitely see it rising if Spectrier remains.
- Crunch + Rest Ttar gets Wisped for free as it Crunches the Sub, making it a useless weight until it Rests and wakes up, virtually giving 3-4 free turns to your opponent. It also needs Leftovers and being healthy, otherwise it will lose the 1v1. I guess it's niche counterplay but I'm not that tempted.
ttar doesn't need to rest for spectrier, as it's perfectly capable of doing a lot of damage to it even while burned, and sandstorm means it can't get health back from lefties. when it's sub is broken spectrier basically has to GTFO since it can't do much to ttar and ttar 2hkos it easily considering spectrier just used 25% of its hp to make a sub. so then it can come in again, sub up again and promptly do nothing when ttar comes back in, and it loses 19%(sub-one turn of lefties befor tar is in) every time it does this. meanwhile ttar also has it's lefties negated, but doesn't actually have to hurt itself to be useful. So in short, if you only use ttar for opposing spectrier if it's on their team, the spectrier can't do anything, unless you like hex an already burned one instead of subbing up while it's coming in like 4 times in a row(that's with rocks up, it's 7 times without them) and then immediately switch out, losing tempo every time and letting free sandstorm come up. Also if it's a hard sandstorm team every time this happens, theres a chance the ttar user will switch to dracozolt or sand rush exca and ko 1-3 mons on your team while you are switching your spectrier out.
TLDR when spect is in ttar doesnt click rest, it just punches spectrier until it either switches or dies, no matter if its burned or not
ttar doesn't need to rest for spectrier, as it's perfectly capable of doing a lot of damage to it even while burned, and sandstorm means it can't get health back from lefties. when it's sub is broken spectrier basically has to GTFO since it can't do much to ttar and ttar 2hkos it easily considering spectrier just used 25% of its hp to make a sub. so then it can come in again, sub up again and promptly do nothing when ttar comes back in, and it loses 19%(sub-one turn of lefties befor tar is in) every time it does this. meanwhile ttar also has it's lefties negated, but doesn't actually have to hurt itself to be useful. So in short, if you only use ttar for opposing spectrier if it's on their team, the spectrier can't do anything, unless you like hex an already burned one instead of subbing up while it's coming in like 4 times in a row(that's with rocks up, it's 7 times without them) and then immediately switch out, losing tempo every time and letting free sandstorm come up. Also if it's a hard sandstorm team every time this happens, theres a chance the ttar user will switch to dracozolt or sand rush exca and ko 1-3 mons on your team while you are switching your spectrier out.
TLDR when spect is in ttar doesnt click rest, it just punches spectrier until it either switches or dies, no matter if its burned or not
True, but this could go both ways. When Spectrier comes in you are basically forced to go to your Spectrier check or you risk losing on the spot. What's stopping the other team from double switching to a wallbreaker that can take advantage of Ttar? Then your team would be the one with the disadvantage. Also, Spectrier still burns Tyranitar, which greatly cripples it. So this is another problem with Spectrier: a good team with Spectrier has Pokemon that can take advantage of Spectrier's checks (Obstagoon and Cinderace are good examples) and can also take advantage of the burns it spread. And certain checks will be either greatly crippled (Ttar) or gives up momentum (for example Zarude most likely has to use Jungle Healing to cure its burn or it will be near useless). These thing make Spectrier insanely difficult to deal with.
I have to admit giving Dracozolt a free switch is bad news though. Most teams are not prepared for it at all.
True, but this could go both ways. When Spectrier comes in you are basically forced to go to your Spectrier check or you risk losing on the spot. What's stopping the other team from double switching to a wallbreaker that can take advantage of Ttar? Then your team would be the one with the disadvantage. Also, Spectrier still burns Tyranitar, which greatly cripples it. So this is another problem with Spectrier: a good team with Spectrier has Pokemon that can take advantage of Spectrier's checks (Obstagoon and Cinderace are good examples) and can also take advantage of the burns it spread. And certain checks will be either greatly crippled (Ttar) or gives up momentum (for example Zarude most likely has to use Jungle Healing to cure its burn or it will be near useless). These thing make Spectrier insanely difficult to deal with.
I have to admit giving Dracozolt a free switch is bad news though. Most teams are not prepared for it at all.
kinda but we are getting into i know that you know that i know situations, what if the ttar user predicts that and swaps to a mon that counters the breaker, what happens if spectrier user predicts that and just attacks;I would still say that in the majority of cases the ttar user comes out on top, and sometimes gets an opportunity to basically win the game off a free zolt switch
Sp def hydreigon is a really cool mon, being able to just snarl special attackers to make them not as powerful such as specs magearna, nidoking, and offensive zapdos. Also being able to do what it already does better in checking spectrier, heatran (has to be wary of toxic), and and the birds. Its lower speed means it has to be played carefully against now faster pokemon such as landorus-t, kyurem, and urshifu-r. I feel like sp def hydreigon could become a really good pokemon
Sp def hydreigon is a really cool mon, being able to just snarl special attackers to make them not as powerful such as specs magearna, nidoking, and offensive zapdos. Also being able to do what it already does better in checking spectrier, heatran (has to be wary of toxic), and and the birds. Its lower speed means it has to be played carefully against now faster pokemon such as landorus-t, kyurem, and urshifu-r. I feel like sp def hydreigon could become a really good pokemon
Sp def hydreigon is a really cool mon, being able to just snarl special attackers to make them not as powerful such as specs magearna, nidoking, and offensive zapdos. Also being able to do what it already does better in checking spectrier, heatran (has to be wary of toxic), and and the birds. Its lower speed means it has to be played carefully against now faster pokemon such as landorus-t, kyurem, and urshifu-r. I feel like sp def hydreigon could become a really good pokemon
ttar doesn't need to rest for spectrier, as it's perfectly capable of doing a lot of damage to it even while burned, and sandstorm means it can't get health back from lefties. when it's sub is broken spectrier basically has to GTFO since it can't do much to ttar and ttar 2hkos it easily considering spectrier just used 25% of its hp to make a sub. so then it can come in again, sub up again and promptly do nothing when ttar comes back in, and it loses 19%(sub-one turn of lefties befor tar is in) every time it does this. meanwhile ttar also has it's lefties negated, but doesn't actually have to hurt itself to be useful. So in short, if you only use ttar for opposing spectrier if it's on their team, the spectrier can't do anything, unless you like hex an already burned one instead of subbing up while it's coming in like 4 times in a row(that's with rocks up, it's 7 times without them) and then immediately switch out, losing tempo every time and letting free sandstorm come up. Also if it's a hard sandstorm team every time this happens, theres a chance the ttar user will switch to dracozolt or sand rush exca and ko 1-3 mons on your team while you are switching your spectrier out.
TLDR when spect is in ttar doesnt click rest, it just punches spectrier until it either switches or dies, no matter if its burned or not
If Tyranitar doesn't click Rest when burned it's litterally a dead weight that lets your opponent do anything on it, be it get in a breaker, setup, get up hazards or whatever really. It's the same if Tyranitar is asleep. It indeed wins a 1v1 against Spectrier, but at a huge cost.
172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 142-168 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 138-163 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 93-109 (26.4 - 30.9%) -- 6.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Careful Nature
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
I think a lot of people do not realize that MaxSpD Ferrothorn is great way to deal with every variant of Spectrier. The set that is most problematic is the set-up / hex one, and even then Ferrothorn can easily get around a sub w/ Knock Off + Gyro Ball:
0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 97-115 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Even after being burned, Knock Off can break the sub and then spammed until Spectrier loses its item -> Gyro Ball can be used once Spectrier no longer has an item (and is currently Ferrothorn's best 4th move option in the current meta regardless):
0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (123 BP) vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 92-108 (24.9 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, this is the worst case scenario. If I ever see my opponent with a Spectrier - I make a conscious effort to keep my Ferrothorn at full health, so that it can easily deal with this thing + make progress in the game. I do believe Spectrier clearly boosts usage for all of its counters - Hydreigon for example probably would not be in OU otherwise - however, I do think it should remain in OU and is not any more "centralizing" than any other top threat. It's at the very least pretty predictable, unlike Cinderace and Magearna - which need to be scouted first. Speaking of Magearna, this Ferrothorn set is a great counter to the Shift Gear / Stored Power / Draining Kiss variants, and can sometimes switch in on certain moves for Choiced sets.
If I were to vote now I would ban Magearna and Cinderace and just barely not ban Spectrier.
Cinderace is so quick and pivots around so freely that he's basically impossible to chip, with the exception of sending on a Rocky Helmet pokemon as he U Turns. It's incredibly strong and can revenge kill 90% of the tier. It has pretty mediocre coverage, but predict wrong and your check is suddenly too softened up to come in next time. I feep like of Cinderace were a little bit weaker he'd be fine... Exactly like last time it was banned.
Each one of Magearna's individual sets are fine, but you send in a check to one of them and it's killed by a different set or set up on. It doesn't restrict team building at all, but ot forces so many guesses that I think it's unhealthy... Exactly like last time it was banned.
Spectrier however is quite easily played around. A normal type that doesn't mind burns (Blissey, Obstagoon), Sp def Clefable and a few others can handle it quite nicely. It's hobbled by Webs as well. If it got banned I wouldn't mind but I would leave it in personally.
Also ban Toxapex.
Anyway these are my trash opinions. Please explain why I'm wrong.
If Tyranitar doesn't click Rest when burned it's litterally a dead weight that lets your opponent do anything on it, be it get in a breaker, setup, get up hazards or whatever really. It's the same if Tyranitar is asleep. It indeed wins a 1v1 against Spectrier, but at a huge cost.
against an opponent using spectrier i want my tyranitar to do exactly 3 things:
1. stop thier primary wincon in spectrier
2. set up sand
3. set up rocks
it can do all of those while burned, and the easiest way to do it is incidentally abusing spectrier. i dont really see the cost here, but maybe its just the way i see tyranitars role
172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 142-168 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 138-163 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 93-109 (26.4 - 30.9%) -- 6.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Careful Nature
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
I think a lot of people do not realize that MaxSpD Ferrothorn is great way to deal with every variant of Spectrier. The set that is most problematic is the set-up / hex one, and even then Ferrothorn can easily get around a sub w/ Knock Off + Gyro Ball:
0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 97-115 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Even after being burned, Knock Off can break the sub and then spammed until Spectrier loses its item -> Gyro Ball can be used once Spectrier no longer has an item (and is currently Ferrothorn's best 4th move option in the current meta regardless):
0 Atk burned Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (123 BP) vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 92-108 (24.9 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, this is the worst case scenario. If I ever see my opponent with my Spectrier - I make a conscious effort to keep my Ferrothorn at full health, so that it can easily deal with this thing + make progress in the game. I do believe Spectrier clearly boosts usage for all of its counters - Hydreigon for example probably would not be in OU otherwise - however, I do think it should remain in OU and is not any more "centralizing" than any other top threat. It's at the very least pretty predictable, unlike Cinderace and Magearna - which need to be scouted to first. Speaking of Magearna, this Ferrothorn set is a great counter to the Shift Gear variants, and can sometimes switch in on certain moves for Choiced sets.
There are alot of problems with this that you overlooked. For one, you forgot to add hazards into the calcs considering how easy it is to chip Ferrothorn.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And look at what happens if Ferro loses it’s lefties to Knock Off which is a common occurrence in a day to day scenario.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also running max SpD over the usual spreads means you potentially can be OHKOd by SD Chomp in a pinch and it makes the mu vs Melmetal, Lando, Drill, Corviknight, and Barra worse for you.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Ferrothorn: 305-360 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (You have a much smaller chance to live if you had 80 Dfse evs for example.)
Also “making a conscious effort to keep Ferro at full” isn’t good counterplay if it’s your only Spectrier switch in. What’s worse is that keeping Ferro at full is like trying to pass the eye test blindfolded, it’s next to impossible when you have to take into hazards, Knock Off, and account for all the mons Ferro is meant to deal with. Especially since Spectrier can just wisp it on the switch and deal with it later. The reason Hydreigon rose to usage was specifically cause of Spectrier, Heatran is only secondary to Hydreigon’s increase in usage similarly to Toad when Vish was still in the tier. There’s a difference between mons to deal with metagame trends like Protect on Tankchomp or CM Clef running Trick + Sticky Barb to cripple Pex/Tran/Melmetal and mons/sets rising in usage just to deal with one overcentralizing threat that restrains teambuilding in an unhealthy way. Spectrier forces you to slap Hydreigon, Ttar, SpD Roar Tran, and Zarude on every team or lose a mon everytime this mon comes in. Even then Spectrier can beat these besides Zarude cause Hex 2HKOs Hydreigon after chip, Ttar can’t constantly switch into Spect unless it’s rest which makes it deadweight against everything else, SpD Tran loses to CM Taunt Spect/Specs Spect, and Zarude can be constantly chipped down by repeated Hexs. Also one last thing. No Ferro doesn’t beat all SG Mag sets, it has to worry about Focus Blast/Aura Aura Sphere.
Magearna’s set-up sets aren’t remotely problematic to me. There is pretty massive overlap in counterplay right now and the Weakness Policy set, which more people than ever seem to be complaining about, is particularly inconsistent. The metagame easily has the tools to minimize it.
Specs Magearna is the single best set and the closest to being suspect worthy, much like the DLC2 metagame. Specs is ridiculously good Imo, but it’s also not seeing nearly enough usage or discussion here. This coupled with Volt immunities being mandatory as is and there being a surplus of Fleur resists may leave it more manageable than DLC1, but even then I get why people would discuss this set at least. Assertions that it should have never been unbanned or that it makes the tier unplayable are all far off base. Magearna is clearly an amazing Pokemon, but it at best toes the line of suspect worthy without being blatantly problematic.
Cinderace and Spectrier are both more pressing to me. I’m not sure which I find harder to handle — probably Cinderace, but my mind isn’t 100% made and the metagame is still developing. Will post here once I’ve refined my opinion on that front.
I agree with most of what you said, but I do think that the setup Magearna sets are problematic despite being manageable in a vacuum. The uncomfortable plays forced by the Specs set can allow for detrimental circumstances if you guess the set wrong. I would agree with Spectrier being more pressing, not just because of the difficulty in handling it but also in the match up reliant nature of its impact on the metagame.
Since it has been brought to the table, i'd like to talk a bit about Dracozolt and a tweaked EV spread that I have researched, which I think can be useful.
So, what is the deal with this weird EV spread? Well, I realized two things: The first is that the speed tier of neutral nature Dracozolt outside of sand is 249, which falls short from 252+ Magearna (251), and also, things that are creeping Magearna like 144 EV Speed Moltres (252 speed) and 144 EV Speed Landorus-T (254); with this spread, Dracozolt gets 255 Speed, putting it ahead of them. The Moltres thing is hilarious because you should be able to defeat it, but if it is faster than Dracozolt, it can spam Roost to eliminate Flying-type, and Bolt Beak will only have 85 BP, and also, it can fish for Flame Body burns, so, it may be actually useful to outspeed it and destroy with full-power Bolt Beak. Also, being able to outspeed defensive Landorus-T is huge: this EV spread can, among other things, KO Rocky Helmet defensive Landorus-T with the combination of Fire Blast + Draco Meteor after one round of rocks, even with the lowest rolls in both moves, which is great for Excadrill as it removes one of its biggest roadblocks. After all, the speed issue is really important for me, because being able to outspeed and put a huge dent on threats like Landorus-T and especially Magearna, which is very threatening in general, is a great deal.
The second thing is that neutral nature 252 EV speed Dracozolt (498 in sand) can't outspeed +1 Speed Jolly Garchomp (499) even in sand, and that boosted Garchomp can be a huge threat for these teams because Excadrill can't revenge kill it reliably, even taking into account the -1 Defense from Scale Shot and a round of LO recoil. This spread of Dracozolt actually outspeeds +1 Garchomp and revenge kills it with Draco Meteor.
Naive nature is prefered to take better priority like Cinderace's Sucker Punch and Rillaboom's Grassy Glide.
What other things this spread does?
- It KOes 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn with the combination of Bolt Beak on the switch + Fire Blast (this can be a scenario when they have multiple resists but their Electric-immunity is gone). It also OHKOes the 252 / 252+ Def Ferrothorn with Fire Blast.
- OHKOes 252 / 252+ Def Toxapex with Bolt Beak.
- 25% chance to OHKO non-HP invested Magearna after rocks with Bolt Beak.
- It retains the ability to OHKO full defensive Skarmory after rocks with Bolt Beak. Also, it OHKOes Corviknight Defog's set spread.
- It keeps intact the myriad of 2HKO this mon has against a lot of threats like Clefable, Rillaboom, Blissey, Melmetal among others.
This thing is nuts because it has great coverage, speed and enough power to 2HKO the entire tier outside of select mons like SpDef Swampert (which takes 34% from Draco Meteor, which is huge for a mon without reliable recovery) and SpDef Hippowdon, which can be easily dealt with common sand members like a bulky Grass-type, which also helps in rain matchup or breakers like Kartana, which benefits a lot from the speed and power of Dracozolt and Excadrill, as they improve team's matchup against offense, and Kartana in return improves the team matchup against balance and weakens common checks and counters like Zapdos.
I think Sand is in a pretty good spot right now; with the departure of Urshifu, Excadrill and Dracozolt don't have to worry about being weakened or picked off at high HP percentages with Sucker Punch. Also, usually sand setter is Tyranitar, which is a great Spectrier counter, and if you want to play it totally safe, you can run Crunch + Rest Tyranitar, which can check things like non Aura Sphere Latios and Heatran thanks to the longevity given by Rest. Finally, sand is usually well-equiped against Magearna and Cinderace because Excadrill can revenge kill both and the archetype can run defensive answers like Toxapex or Moltres without problems.
176 Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 104-123 (29.5 - 34.9%)
148 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 281-333 (79.8 - 94.6%)
148 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 359-426 (101.9 - 121%)
148 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 122-144 (31.9 - 37.6%)
148 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 216-255 (56.5 - 66.7%) --> Min rolls KO with one round of rocks
176 Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 251-296 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 413-486 (115.6 - 136.1%)
176 Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 304-359 (100 - 118%)
176 Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinderace: 355-419 (117.9 - 139.2%)
148 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 140-165 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Thanks for reading, have a nice day and happy battling ^^
post
