Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Negative Charge]

bring the big dog down! 68.7% of survey respondents gave a neutral to favorable rating on dropping it. I think it's worthwhile to add the element to the mix before subtracting the other potentially problematic elements like Spectrier and Pheromosa because the dog could impact their viability negatively; it would make sense to look at the meta with all of them together before trimming stuff back. If we agree that the current annoying stuff isn't quickban worthy then I don't see why it would make sense to not drop dog first to see how they all interact then go from there.

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 293939
bring the big dog down! 68.7% of survey respondents gave a neutral to favorable rating on dropping it. I think it's worthwhile to add the element to the mix before subtracting the other potentially problematic elements like Spectrier and Pheromosa because the dog could impact their viability negatively; it would make sense to look at the meta with all of them together before trimming stuff back.

No, if we reintroduce it or anything from current Ubers, it has to be done before a retest. A retest implies a formal vote to bring it down and conducting that vote when the metagame is still developing and there are other potential suspects involves a lot of overlapping variables that could sway opinions in either direction. The correct protocol here is to have the metagame settle and then have a formal retest, which is what I believe makes the most sense.

 

[Monky25]

No, if we reintroduce it or anything from current Ubers, it has to be done before a retest. A retest implies a formal vote to bring it down and conducting that vote when the metagame is still developing and there are other potential suspects involves a lot of overlapping variables that could sway opinions in either direction. The correct protocol here is to have the metagame settle and then have a formal retest, which is what I believe makes the most sense.

So it’s possible that we might see a zamazenta-crowned test in OU after the metagame stabilizes in a couple weeks rather than a suspect test for a Pokémon already in the tier? I personally like this option as it could definitely curb problematic mons like pheromosa, Spectrier, magearna, etc.

 

[Finchinator]

So it’s possible that we might see a zamazenta-crowned test in OU after the metagame stabilizes in a couple weeks rather than a suspect test for a Pokémon already in the tier? I personally like this option as it could definitely curb problematic mons like pheromosa, Spectrier, magearna, etc.

I'm speaking on behalf of myself and my experienced opinion, not the entire council, but it would make the most sense to see Zamazenta-Crowned in a stable metagame as opposed to a rapidly developing one because the second Zamazenta-Crowned is dropped down, the retest begins and it will be put up for vote within a couple of weeks, much like Melmetal and Cinderace earlier this generation. Therefore, if the metagame changes a ton and we see ups-and-downs over those two weeks, it could lead to inaccurate results and then the tier would be stuck with/without it despite it not being given a fair chance either way. For a retest to be done properly, it should be done once the metagame is settled so the playerbase gets a chance to see it instead of seeing it while obstructed by plenty of other potentially problematic things. There's a reason we waited to retest Melmetal after Pokemon Home and we quickbanned Cinderace, let the metagame settle, and then retested it. Had we just immediately banned and retested, the metagame would have had no time to settle and it would defeat the purpose of a retest down from Ubers to begin with.

 

[Zpegmafia]

Specs Spectrier no Grim Neigh boost.

Spectrier used Shadow Ball!
A critical hit!
(The opposing Moltres lost 100% of its health!)

i am absoulely sick of spec i was about to get a 6-0 then it got a crit and that was it

 

[AshKetchupo]

1.Having no Item is a HUGE drawback,this means Zam-C cannot hold leftovers so every damage it takes won't brushed off meaning it cannot take repeated hits, Lack of Boosting iteam is also a hinderance since while 130 attack isn't bad its certainly not gonna be dealing to much damage to bulky pokemon or even offensive pokemon for that matter(With some execptions of course)and Zamazenta has to rely on the mediocre Howl to increase its poor damage output.

I would think that a lot of OU Pokemon wish they could hold a mega stone ("wasted item") to get a stat spread of 92 / 130 / 216 / 80 / 145 / 128 though, especially bulky Steel types. That's a BST of 791 with no inefficiently allocated stats (Kyurem-B's 120 SpA being often wasted next to its 170 Atk). I know BST's don't stand-alone win any arguments nor should they, but that's a ridiculously good spread for an OU Steel type.

It hits hard enough. Even when unboosted, it can OHKO Heatran, Kyurem-B, Urshifu, Pelliper, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Blissey, Blaziken, Tapu Lele, Zarude, Hatterene, Hawlucha, Hydreigon, Grimmsnarl, Crawdaunt, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Tapu Bulu, Cinderace, Kartana, Barraskewda, Ninetales-A, etc. Zam-C also outspeeds the majority of the tier, allowing it to only take one hit in exchange for 2HKOs when it needs them.

At +1, Zam-C OHKOs nearly everything that outspeeds him (scarfed Lando-T being the main exception unless Zam is running Ice Fang), and Zam-C with only 64 HP EVs (Adamant) can't be OHKO'd by any of them. He can also OHKO the more delicate hard-hitters while unboosted, and most of them can't even OHKO Zam-C even with super-effective 120 or 130 BP STABs (when Zam has minimal defensive investment at that):

252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 188-224 (55.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 273-322 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 257-304 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 384-453 (135.6 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So imagine how Zam-C takes hits he's neutral to, or god-forbid, resists (he only has 8 resistances and an immunity).

232 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 10-12 (2.9 - 3.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

232 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 14-16 (4.1 - 4.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

The dude reliably takes more from a quad-resisted Stealth Rock than he is from Lando-T's 232 Atk-invested (145 base attack) U-turn without any defensive nature, any defensive EVs, and only 64 HP EVs. When he resists hits, he barely feels them. You can quadruple those numbers by giving him a normal typing and it's still impressive how he's eating those up.

2.Close Combat its best STAB move lowers its defenses meaning it basically neuters its high defenses making it very easy to KO in return

Using CC once gets its physical defense back to +0 145, and a base SpD of 145 even at -1 isn't "neutered". But I mean, take one of the fiercest wallbreakers in OU with a super-effective 120 BP STAB move and a Choice Band and throw it up against Zam-C with minimal defensive investment:

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 428-506 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zam-C also outspeeds (it only needs 124 EVs without a speed-boosting nature to out-speed a fully speed-invested/natured Urshifu) and OHKOs it (needing 0 EVs and no attack boosting nature to do so). So a Zam-C user could actually "oopsie-daisy" switch in a non-defensive Zam-C on a banded Urshifu's super effective Close Combat, guarantee-tank that hit, and then guarantee-OHKO it back the next turn without any attack investment, even when ignoring the CC droping Urshifu's defenses. I know "one example isn't everything", but that's a horribly non-ideal situation for Zam-C to switch into a Banded Urhisfu CC, and still comes out like a champ. Imagine it when it's used for favorable or neutral matches with OU-optimized EV spreads.

besides Zamazenta has very few oportunities to boost its attack due to its lack of recovery to switch into attacks

I think it's highly doubtful that a Steel type with 92 / 216 / 145 bulk and 130 Atk / 128 Spe with two powerful STABs that can OHKO plenty of Pokemon while unboosted will have any trouble finding revenge-killing opportunities for one boost. Its quadruple-resistance to Stealth Rock, immunity to poison, etc. is going to help it there too. Anyway, I'm not against testing it. But IMO people that argue "it's not great" are going to be proven wrong when it is tested. It might not be broken, but I'd bet good money that it will be great.

 

[MrHands]

I think it's highly doubtful that a Steel type with 92 / 216 / 145 bulk and 130 Atk / 128 Spe with two powerful STABs that can OHKO plenty of Pokemon while unboosted will have any trouble finding revenge-killing opportunities for one boost.

Revenge killing? My man this thing sets up in Garchomp's face.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Zama-C: 158-188 (48.4 - 57.6%)

+1 252+ Atk Zama-C Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 337-397 (94.3 - 111.2%)

I don't think anything in the game besides Mimikyu will have an easier time finding setup opportunities. This thing is bulkier than Regirock in a sandstorm, it just doesn't give a fuck about little things like "STAB Super Effective".

 

[FrozenVoltz]

I would think that a lot of OU Pokemon wish they could hold a mega stone ("wasted item") to get a stat spread of 92 / 130 / 216 / 80 / 145 / 128 though, especially bulky Steel types. That's a BST of 791 with no inefficiently allocated stats (Kyurem-B's 120 SpA being often wasted next to its 170 Atk). I know BST's don't stand-alone win any arguments nor should they, but that's a ridiculously good spread for an OU Steel type.

It hits hard enough. Even when unboosted, it can OHKO Heatran, Kyurem-B, Urshifu, Pelliper, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Blissey, Blaziken, Tapu Lele, Zarude, Hatterene, Hawlucha, Hydreigon, Grimmsnarl, Crawdaunt, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Tapu Bulu, Cinderace, Kartana, Barraskewda, Ninetales-A, etc. Zam-C also outspeeds the majority of the tier, allowing it to only take one hit in exchange for 2HKOs when it needs them. At +1, Zam-C OHKOs nearly everything that outspeeds him (Lando-T being the main exception unless Zam is running Ice Fang), and can't be OHKO'd by any of them.




Using CC once gets its physical defense back to +0 145, and a base SpD of 145 even at -1 isn't "neutered". But I mean, take one of the fiercest wallbreakers in OU with a super-effective 120 BP STAB move and throw it up against Zam-C with minimal defensive investment:

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 428-506 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zam-C also outspeeds (it only needs 124 EVs without a speed-boosting nature to out-speed a fully speed-invested Urshifu) and OHKOs it (needing 0 EVs and no attack boosting nature to do so). So a Zam-C user could actually "oopsie-daisy" switch in a non-defensive Zam-C on a banded Urshifu's super effective Close Combat, guarantee-tank that hit, and then guarantee-OHKO it back the next turn without any attack investment, even when ignoring the CC droping Urshifu's defenses. I know "one example isn't everything", but that's a horribly non-ideal move for Zam-C to switch into a Banded Urhisfu CC, and still comes out looking great. Imagine it when it's used for favorable or neutral matches with OU-optimized EV spreads.



I think it's highly doubtful that a Steel type with 92 / 216 / 145 bulk and 130 Atk / 128 Spe with two powerful STABs that can OHKO plenty of Pokemon while unboosted will have any trouble finding revenge-killing opportunities for one boost. I don't think its notable quadruple-resistance to Stealth Rock is going to hurt it too bad in that regard either.

1.You know who can also do that?Pheromosa,Also its very obvious something would be broken with those Stat spreads(Basically the majority of the OU tier that has a good movepool) but Zamazenta has a poor movepool so it basically becomes worse than Zamazenta-Normal if it holds the rusted shield,good stats mean nothing with those shortcomings.

2.The problem with CC is that is your only good STAB move and relying on contact moves in this metagame is a huge risk since Rocky helmet ,Moltres and Zapdos are everywhere,also its 2 STABS have low PP so they aren't nearly as spammable,not to mention that its coverage isn't that strong and its quite weak without a boost

3.Good luck breaking through Bulky teams with that.Not to mention offense has solid offensive counterplay

 

[FrozenVoltz]

Revenge killing? My man this thing sets up in Garchomp's face.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Zama-C: 158-188 (48.4 - 57.6%)

+1 252+ Atk Zama-C Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 337-397 (94.3 - 111.2%)

I don't think anything in the game besides Mimikyu will have an easier time finding setup opportunities. This thing is bulkier than Regirock in a sandstorm, it just doesn't give a fuck about little things like "STAB Super Effective".

You are basically killing your zamazenta by setting up on Garchomp,not only it takes half from earthquake,but TankChomp can take a hit chip it down with Rough+Rocky Helmet at +1 and KO Zamazenta back


0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Garchomp: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Schpoonman]

Your calcs need some adjustments, why would 0 Attack Garchomp also run 0 HP?

 

[FrozenVoltz]

Dauntless Shield is bugged on the calculator. You need to change its ability (I pick Arena Trap) and manually put in the +1 Def boost. Garchomp without attack investment is actually doing this:

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah... Zam-C could boost-up in Garchomp's face despite its STAB super-effective EQ, then likely OHKO it at +1.

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 337-397 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

And still have 20% of its health left after Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin (12.5% + 16.6% + 38.7 - 45.7%) = 67.8% - 74.8% damage taken.

Wrong.

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Garchomp: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (It takes Rough Skin+Rocky Helmet basically taking 24% Damage,putting itselft at Earthquake K.O after the first Earthquake it took when it was setting up)

 

[Bugboy]

I admitted the error there and how it happened, but let's not be ridiculous with the "non-set" point. Literally the very first suggested set on the calculator (Offensive Stealth Rock) has Zam-C being able to do exactly what MrHands said:

Zam-C Howls (Zam-C outspeeds 340 v 333)

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 158-188 (46.3 - 55.1%) -- 63.3% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 337-397 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

And I frankly find it funny that the argument is now "B-b-but it can't setup in all Garchomp sets' faces!" lol. It's a steel type setting up on a freaking Garchomp.

I deleted my post before you replied since it was redundant with what everyone else said, (obviously you don’t care about making the same redundant post 4 times in a row) but I highly doubt peeps will be running adamant 64 hp EV as the most common set.

Let’s not forget that garchomp can literally just switch out.

 

[FrozenVoltz]

I deleted my post before you replied since it was redundant, (obviously you don’t care about making the same redundant post 4 times in a row) but I highly doubt peeps will be running adamant 64 hp EV as the most common set.

Let’s not forget that garchomp can literally just switch out.

Not to mention it can only set up on Garchomp after a mon from Zamas team has fainted meaning it has to sack something first because this thing isn't switching into Garchomp

 

[G-Luke]

I just think it;s truly hilarious how I used nidoking for several gens and yall called it bad and now lol suddenly, despite it learning absolutely no new moves and no changes to its stats it's great. truly incredibly hilarious honestly (mandibuzz too but I mean at least blunder admitted that bird is broken way back).

anyway what are peoples thoughts on nidoqueen? it's a lot bulkier and AV is kinda heat. or you can go toxic spikes and live a bunch of hits while doing a lot of good damage back. its attack is higher than it's spa so you can even go phys

Nidoking didnt receive changes, but the tier has positioned itslef in such a way that Nidoking's talents are better suited.

 

[FrozenVoltz]

This is the entire point. An offensive Garchomp with its STAB EQ is switching out if it doesn't want to be potentially setup on and get OHKO'd by this Steel type. Hence me initially debating this statement:



So unless Garchomp is one of its best opportunities to setup, then this statement is obviously not correct. And I'd love to hear arguments about how Garchomp is actually one of its easiest setup opportunities in OU. I'd love that.

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 307-367 (90 - 107.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock(I wonder why you haven't included the Life Orb in the Damage Calc).Yeah Garchomp is definitely Setup fodder for Zamazenta

 

[Bugboy]

This is the entire point. An offensive Garchomp with its STAB EQ is switching out if it doesn't want to be potentially setup on and get OHKO'd by this Steel type. Hence me initially debating this statement:



So unless Garchomp is one of its best opportunities to setup, then this statement is obviously not correct. And I'd love to hear arguments about how Garchomp is actually one of its easiest setup opportunities in the tier.

You know what other steel type Garchomp cant stay in on? Melmetal. You know what does nearly as much damage as + 1 Zama-C without setting up? Melmetal. So are you calling for melmetal to be banned too? Because being able to live super effective hits means quite literally nothing. And get this - melmetal can hold an item. You can give it a CB & 1hko chomp after taking 50% from an EQ, can’t do that with Zama-C.

I think you’re strictly wrong if you think it’s a foregone conclusion that Zama-C will be broken when it has as many flaws as it does. Will it get banned after testing? Possibly, but it should still be tested. If it was such a simple foregone conclusion, then please explain why 70% of the player base wants it tested? Are they all wrong?

 

[BitBitio]

Guys we can throw around calcs all day but the metagame definitely needs a few weeks before there’s any chance of unbanning Zamazenta. This discussion is kinda degenerating into just talking about the numbers and not considering other factors, and yelling pointlessly at each other. I’m personally getting tired of hearing about Zamazenta- and the way I see it, Finch just told us that it’s not happening at least for a few weeks until everything settles a bit.

 

[FrozenVoltz]

Back to "it can't set up on all Garchomps!" lol. You do see how this is ridiculous right?

Both of these sets can 1v1 Zamazenta very easily LOL

 

[Finchinator]

Arguing about what calcs are right and little details of this is not going to get anyone anywhere. Let's move on from discussion of Zamazenta-C vs Garchomp please.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Cinderace vs zamazenta

Sooo, Spectrier and regieleki, the two pokemon that if your electric/ghost resist/immunity is dead you are getting 6-0ed and your goal is to play a 5vs5 because your pokemon cant be worn down to the point where it can be just chipped down like tyranitar needs to be healthy enough to take a wisp and hex's but eventually its going to get worn down and you are going to have to play the game of sack a mon. Really fun game and really enjoy playing it. Point is, is that there is not much that could take them on once you get rid of that one roadblock in their way. Like its that one pokemon that restricts teambuilding to make sure u run two resist for each otherwise u get swept if one is worn down. For example if tyranitar is put into range of 2 hex's then it just dies and you can just lose the game on the spot due to how powerful its snowballing potential is or regieleki which can just 6-0 teams right then and there with its stab because its so darn powerful

 

[HeartfulKitty]

Cinderace vs zamazenta

Sooo, Spectrier and regieleki, the two pokemon that if your electric/ghost resist/immunity is dead you are getting 6-0ed and your goal is to play a 5vs5 because your pokemon cant be worn down to the point where it can be just chipped down like tyranitar needs to be healthy enough to take a wisp and hex's but eventually its going to get worn down and you are going to have to play the game of sack a mon. Really fun game and really enjoy playing it. Point is, is that there is not much that could take them on once you get rid of that one roadblock in their way. Like its that one pokemon that restricts teambuilding to make sure u run two resist for each otherwise u get swept if one is worn down. For example if tyranitar is put into range of 2 hex's then it just dies and you can just lose the game on the spot due to how powerful its snowballing potential is or regieleki which can just 6-0 teams right then and there with its stab because its so darn powerful

It is laughable to compare Regieleki to Spectrier, when it:

1) Has a significantly worse stab, as there’s plenty of good ground types;
2) Has even worse defenses and no substitute, making priority a bigger issue for it;
3) Has no utility outside of screens, explosion, and rapid spin, and sets with those aren’t really sweeping sets;
4) Doesn’t have an ability that boosts its special attack after every KO; and
5) Has no way to break past the things that beat it (outside of... choice band assurance after they switch into hazards while you get a critical hit? Or explosion, but then you’re out for the count too)

Regieleki has a niche as a fast screens setter that can either boom or deal good damage with transistor electric moves, and choice sets are workable if you build teams around them, but the two aren’t really all that comparable.

Spectrier absolutely deserves to be looked at once things settle though, it’s annoying as hell and probably over centralizing

 

[Ast0rga]

It is laughable to compare Regieleki to Spectrier, when it:

1) Has a significantly worse stab, as there’s plenty of good ground types;
2) Has even worse defenses and no substitute, making priority a bigger issue for it;
3) Has no utility outside of screens, explosion, and rapid spin, and sets with those aren’t really sweeping sets;
4) Doesn’t have an ability that boosts its special attack after every KO; and
5) Has no way to break past the things that beat it (outside of... choice band assurance after they switch into hazards while you get a critical hit? Or explosion, but then you’re out for the count too)

Regieleki has a niche as a fast screens setter that can either boom or deal good damage with transistor electric moves, and choice sets are workable if you build teams around them, but the two aren’t really all that comparable.

Spectrier absolutely deserves to be looked at once things settle though, it’s annoying as hell and probably over centralizing

But I can see his point, your arguments are all true yet there's something in your number one that doesn't feel allright:
"there’s plenty of good ground types;"

So according to this, any team that lacks a ground type/volt absorb/lightningrod is bad.
Is that healthy? I legit ask lol I'm not entirely sure what is considered healthy or not.
Because I remember having no issues against Zeraora without a Ground type.
On the other hand I had to add one on this meta after having a Regieleki use like 14 Specs Transistor Volt Switches against my team in one battle.

 

[fratelli bc]

Well I guess the problem with regieleki vs spectrier comparison is not that you must have a immunity in your team. The problem is the available counterplays to them.

For regieleki, literally any ground type is an answer. And the tier has plenty of them. Regieleki simply can't do nothing to them.
Spectrier is different. It can cripples answers with burns and spdef drops, has sub to avoid priority, and can snowball easily with ability. There are mixed ttars running around with max HP just for them. It's kinda annoying.

 

[zedhatool]

But I can see his point, your arguments are all true yet there's something in your number one that doesn't feel allright:
"there’s plenty of good ground types;"

So according to this, any team that lacks a ground type/volt absorb/lightningrod is bad.
Is that healthy? I legit ask lol I'm not entirely sure what is considered healthy or not.
Because I remember having no issues against Zeraora without a Ground type.
On the other hand I had to add one on this meta after having a Regieleki use like 14 Specs Transistor Volt Switches against my team in one battle.

Yes, in this current meta, a team without an electric immunity is bad. Not just because ground types are necessary for Regieleki, but because ground types are necessary to deter Volt Switch, one of the best pivoting moves in the game. Teams missing a ground type lose to Specs Koko, offensive Regieleki, or really any electric type with a strong Volt Switch.

Ground types weren't necessary pre-DLC because there were very few good electric types in the tier. In fact, there was only one: Zeraora. It happened to be the case that there were many other, non-Ground ways of checking Zeraora. This fact, combined with the dearth of effective Ground types in the tier meant that many teams opted to go groundless. This is the exception, not the rule: In every generation since ORAS, ground types have been effectively mandatory on every team. In the same way that every team should have a water resist, every team should have a ground type (or an electric immunity).

Spectrier is a different case entirely. There are not that many good normal types in the tier, so if you want an immunity, counterplay is limited. A resist is easier: there are several viable dark-types you can use. The problem is that Spectrier has the tools to beat all of these checks. For example, Shadow Ball Blissey has become a thing to break Spectrier's substitutes. And with only a little investment, Spectrier can easily tank Blissey Shadow Ball at +1SpD if using Calm Mind (24 SpD EVs iirc). With Dark types, the best checks are Mandibuzz and Ttar, neither of which appreciate being burned, and if Spectrier is using Sub-Disable, they can lose. Other Dark types, like Incineroar and Obstagoon, are very easy to wear down over the course of the game. Moreover, Sub-Disable Spectrier actually beats standard Obstagoon, because you disable Knock off and then set up on it while it takes Chip.

I don't know if Spectrier is broken, but its restrictiveness on building is far greater than that of Regieleki.

 

[Ast0rga]

Yes, in this current meta, a team without an electric immunity is bad. Not just because ground types are necessary for Regieleki, but because ground types are necessary to deter Volt Switch, one of the best pivoting moves in the game. Teams missing a ground type lose to Specs Koko, offensive Regieleki, or really any electric type with a strong Volt Switch.

Ground types weren't necessary pre-DLC because there were very few good electric types in the tier. In fact, there was only one: Zeraora. It happened to be the case that there were many other, non-Ground ways of checking Zeraora. This fact, combined with the dearth of effective Ground types in the tier meant that many teams opted to go groundless. This is the exception, not the rule: In every generation since ORAS, ground types have been effectively mandatory on every team. In the same way that every team should have a water resist, every team should have a ground type (or an electric immunity).

Spectrier is a different case entirely. There are not that many good normal types in the tier, so if you want an immunity, counterplay is limited. A resist is easier: there are several viable dark-types you can use. The problem is that Spectrier has the tools to beat all of these checks. For example, Shadow Ball Blissey has become a thing to break Spectrier's substitutes. And with only a little investment, Spectrier can easily tank Blissey Shadow Ball at +1SpD if using Calm Mind (24 SpD EVs iirc). With Dark types, the best checks are Mandibuzz and Ttar, neither of which appreciate being burned, and if Spectrier is using Sub-Disable, they can lose. Other Dark types, like Incineroar and Obstagoon, are very easy to wear down over the course of the game. Moreover, Sub-Disable Spectrier actually beats standard Obstagoon, because you disable Knock off and then set up on it while it takes Chip.

I don't know if Spectrier is broken, but its restrictiveness on building is far greater than that of Regieleki.

That was a very satisfying answer, thanks.