Not to mention Spectrier can just switch out into a Moltres or Zapdos or something. Usually there would be a threat of SD -> Giga Impact KOing whatever comes in, but in this case it doesn't even have SD to actually pose a threat other than knocking something off, which is useful but can be done better by other stronger/bulkier mons.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Hmmm....perhaps it would function better as an Attacking Lead than a Physical Sweeper? Anyways, I have indeed accomplished sweeps with this set.
Too be fair, Kartana just gets one-shot if it tries to SD. And if not being able to defeat Spectrier is the issue, what exactly does Giga Impact accomplish. Not to mention, after using Giga Impact, wasting a turn to recharge with Kartana's terrible SpDef is fatal. Also, "stronger/bulkier mons" don't get Beast Boost. Blacephalon is better as a SpAtker, Guzzlord has terrible bulk, and Nihilego can't survive a single EQ. I suppose Moxie Scrafty could work, but I've never seen a single Scrafty run in OU, besides, Scrafty doesn't get nearly as much Speed or Attack as Kartana.
Ausma edit: Combined your two posts; be sure to avoid double posting for the future!
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Kartana might get one shot by most decently strong special attacks, but it can easily use Swords Dance on physically oriented Pokemon such as Swampert, Ferrothorn, and Rillaboom locked into a Grass move, as well as more passive Pokemon like Clefable and Toxapex. Giga Impact of course doesn't impact Spectrier but it is able to blow away would be answers to SD Kartana such as Zapdos and Moltres, and while the forced recharge sucks these being gone can be of great use to a partner like Rillaboom or the soon-to-be-likely-banned Pheromosa, the former of which is an excellent partner for Kartana since it gives it stronger Leaf Blades.
EDIT: Also, if the enemy happens to lack the means to KO Kartana during the recharge, it can very well continue to put in work with one of it's main checks gone.
I am still convinced Giga Impact Kartana is a meme that is trying to be sold as some fire move on it when its like using Head Smash Aegislash to hit Moltres. Like a good haha moment to be trolly. You make a team that folds to Kartana probably better to just dump it cause its probably trashy against a lot of other things. Grass Terrain plus Kart probably has some minor merit but imagine having to put more work to cover Cinderace yuck.
As far as Magearna goes its defensive utility would be nice for the tier if the offensive sets werent so overpowering in their own ways. It should definitely go but that’ll take time.
As far as Magearna goes its defensive utility would be nice for the tier if the offensive sets werent so overpowering in their own ways. It should definitely go but that’ll take time.
There's a saying that often the best defense is a great offense.
Replacing life orb with sash takes away it's offensive capabilities and giga impact shouldn't be slashed on a non-LO set.
The point of LO Giga Impact, is not to sweep, but to create a hole in the opponent's team.
Like use it after using +2 Knock Off first against a mon like Leftovers Buzzwole.
Yeah Kart will die to 2 Drain Punches, but at the end the amount of damage done to Wole leaves it in range of Kart's teammates such as Band Urshifu-Dark.
Why spend all battle playing around, trying to avoid Kart's sash being broken early? (like Aurora Veil Hail breaks its sash too)
And then you're doing way less damage in general than if you had Life Orb?
It's better to actually have the power to take out one of their fatter mons and leave their team with one less mon in middle of game, than wait for late game to maybe survive a hit from a faster threat ... but their fat is still alive to wall the rest of your team.
EDIT: In addition, Sash is better on something that can lead & provide support for its team, such as Sash Lando + Stealth Rock + Explosion (which could also be your RegiEleki answer), or even Sash Hatterene to set Trick Room and Bounce back hazards and Misty Explosion, or even the meme tailwind team with Sash Tailwind Mew which is better than Sash Tailwind Kart since Kart can't explode to prevent your opponent from wasting turns.
Generally I agree but just a few things that I think should be mentioned. For one thing, Cinderace should absolutely be included as a teammate here. Specs Mag + Cinderace is a really threatening momentum core. I normally find zen headbutt Cinderace to be lacking since opposing Pex can easily tank the hit and scald or toxic you. However, it's great alongside Magearna since a well-predicted volt switch gets Cinderace in on weakened Pex and forces a 50/50 between getting knocked out by zen headbutt or switching out and taking a pyro ball/gunk shot/u-turn back into Mag.
You also didn't make any mention of defensive momentum cores which can be just as effective alongside Magearna as any of the mons listed. Slowtwins are obviously phenomenal here with TP + future sight but there's also Mandibuzz which has a ground immunity for Mag and gains fairy and rock resists in return. Zapdos works similarly; now that it has access to Hurricane it can viably run volt switch sets and has great type synergy with Mag. Spamming para on the opposing team is always an effective strategy and one that relatively slow specs Magearna appreciates. These fat cores + Mag are really underrated and you can always combine it with a fast u-turn user if you want to get your volt-turn shenanigans going.
Last thing that's kind of a nitpick on my part. The only time that you should ever be clicking trick with Mag is vs opposing Blissey (and Chansey I guess?) or if you want to cripple a setup mon like cm Tapu Fini so that another mon (like haze Pex) can proceed to beat it. Magearna already has the coverage and power to hit virtually the whole tier. Trick is exclusively for the two fat pink blobs and Mag can afford to run that 4th move since its coverage is so good to begin with. Making the prediction to trick, say, Swampert is kind of a misplay when you could just predict that mon to come in and instead OHKO (phys def) or 2HKO the sp def variants without weakening Mag's wallbreaking potential for the rest of the game. Even tricking AV Galar Slowking is questionable since you take its 1.5x sp def boost while simultaneously losing your own 1.5x boost. And then your opponent has a specs regen mon with some seriously dangerous coverage...
Hehehe...Oh boy...
The point of sash on this set is to extend Kartana's playtime, since it gets one-shot due to its low SpDef. If I wanted to use Life Orb, I wouldn't post this. :/
That's why I switched it from Physical Sweeper to Attacking Lead. :/
I don't spend all battle playing around. What part of "Attacking Lead" gives you the idea of "playing around?" Does Hail even break its sash if its being regenerated by Grassy Terrain? And once again, the point of this set isn't Life Orb. Otherwise, I would've been playing LO Kartana and not even minding posting this on Smogon.
How do you even know it walls the rest of my team? You're making assumptions of my team based on one pokemon and acting like its a valid point. Even so, you can't use every Smogon set at once. Different sets have different purposes, but trying to actively downplay one, because it doesn't suit a specific purpose, but does serve a purpose that another one doesn't server is kinda cruel, ngl. Also, the problem with LO is that you just get one-shot. So good luck dealing all that damage you talked about with a Kartana's corpse.
I feel like a spectrier test should be coming up any time soon, it has no true counters to any of its sets, and people have reserved to using exploud of all things as a good check due to normal type + scrappy boomburst. specs is a nuke in a half, scarf is a fast revenege killer, sub NP sets up on defensive mons and wins a game on the spot. What do all of these sets have in common? The ability to snowball after a single kill. I will show some calcs to show stupidity of this mon.
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
A mon being as bulky as pex being OHKO'ed if you let spectrier get a kill.
+1 252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 187-221 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
A mon with 92/90 defences being 2hko'ed by a resisted move on the switch is absurd, if its behind a sub u cannot even use hydreigon to revenge it because it just dies to 2 rounds of hex, and gets clapped by specs shadow ball at +1.
+1 252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 140-165 (33 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Mandibuzz, one of the best checks being able to just pretty much 3hko a resist with bulk as high as 110/95? thats just absurd
These calcs show that even would be checks can be bypassed with patience, and it can snowball teams after a kill. People are already restricting a team slot to counter it, and they always need a 2nd check because a pokemon like ttar doesnt appreciate taking constant hex's and resting makes it a sitting duck against the other members of the team.
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
A mon being as bulky as pex being OHKO'ed if you let spectrier get a kill.
+1 252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 187-221 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
A mon with 92/90 defences being 2hko'ed by a resisted move on the switch is absurd, if its behind a sub u cannot even use hydreigon to revenge it because it just dies to 2 rounds of hex, and gets clapped by specs shadow ball at +1.
+1 252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 160+ SpD Mandibuzz: 140-165 (33 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Mandibuzz, one of the best checks being able to just pretty much 3hko a resist with bulk as high as 110/95? thats just absurd
These calcs show that even would be checks can be bypassed with patience, and it can snowball teams after a kill. People are already restricting a team slot to counter it, and they always need a 2nd check because a pokemon like ttar doesnt appreciate taking constant hex's and resting makes it a sitting duck against the other members of the team.
Magearna is on my radar, but it’s not near DLC1 levels and I do not view it as the most pressing Pokemon to tackle. Choice Specs is fantastic and the most consistent set, but the surge in Volt Switch immunities and Heatran make it prediction reliant and Fleur Cannon has less nuke potential now than it did earlier this year. Various set-up variants are strong (will likely expand on this in a future post btw, there’s plenty to unpack), showing potential to clean games up with ease, but there is no one variant that is overly consistent either. I still believe that, despite this, the collective set mix of Magearna is quite strong. It is undoubtedly one of the best Pokemon in the tier offensively and that comes alongside an amazing defensive typing and superb natural bulk. I think it may be suspect worthy in a bit given all of this, but claims that it makes the tier unplayable or a guessing game are misguided.
Various trends right now at least hinder the offensive presence of Magearna; G-Slowking is surging in usage, Nidoking is a surprisingly good Ground, Heatran is as good as ever, and Melmetal is still running more specially bulky sets. I feel like this is a bit of healthy adaptation, but it also leaves room to wonder if these will hold or if how we use Magearna itself will adapt, much like it did in DLC1 with the rise of the Choice Specs set to begin with. This is why I’m not sold on banning it at this exact moment, but I absolutely believe we should keep a close eye on it.
Various trends right now at least hinder the offensive presence of Magearna; G-Slowking is surging in usage, Nidoking is a surprisingly good Ground, Heatran is as good as ever, and Melmetal is still running more specially bulky sets. I feel like this is a bit of healthy adaptation, but it also leaves room to wonder if these will hold or if how we use Magearna itself will adapt, much like it did in DLC1 with the rise of the Choice Specs set to begin with. This is why I’m not sold on banning it at this exact moment, but I absolutely believe we should keep a close eye on it.
Aaand that's what I get for stopping the moment I read Swords Dance...
let's move on from the one liners and nitpicking so this page doesn't have more deleted posts than actual posts, thanks friends
There's nothing wrong with using Exploud. It's a Pokemon that even if there's no Spectrier on the opponent's team it can still put a massive amount of work. It is easier to use Pokemon like this (looking at you Nidoking you bastard) because they are much easier to bring in this generation with the gift from the gods: Teleport.
I feel like Urshifu is a more pressing issue than Spectrier. Spectrier atleast has some hard stops or temporary stops to it. Urshifu? No. One Poison Jab is all it takes to overwhelm your Fairy. From there it will 2HKO everything at worse. Except Buzzwole but even that's not safe if it's paired up with Future Sight support or the rare Aerial Ace/Acrobatics.
Also the more I play this metagame I'm of the opinion that it's not Slowbro that makes Future Sight problematic. It's Future Sight itself. Slowking Galar abuses Future Sight just as well as Slowbro even without Teleport I feel. I would like to hear people's thoughts on this. But yeah I wouldn't support a Slowbro suspect since it's pretty apparent that people will still abuse the hell out of the move even with Slowbro gone.
If you're using it as an attacking lead that's gonna get 2-shot/left at 1 hp at the outset of the match while dealing with an offensive piece of the opponent's, that's not extending its playtime. That's relying on surprise tactics (which work well, don't get me wrong) to remove a piece of the opponent's that you may or may not have been able to wall. For example, you can easily catch Pheromosa with this strat. They Close Combat as you click Smart Strike and that's a huge threat gone... or they just clicked U-turn anticipating your switch and then easily go into a mon like Landorus-T, Corviknight, or Moltres and wall you, while you've also lost your sash and have very little offensive power as you don't have SD + Giga Impact to threaten something else down the line.
Hail doesn't break sash, but if your sash has been activated then I'm pretty sure you die to hail before you are recovered by Grassy Terrain. Niche scenario, still worth mentioning. Also, there is a point in mentioning LO, because if you are using this offensive sash lead set, then you can't also use the SD LO Giga Impact set. It's an opportunity cost.
That was an example. It very well could've been removing Moltres for Pheromosa, or Mandibuzz for Spectrier, or any other defensive mon for any offensive mon that profits off their disappearance. If you build your team using a SD LO Giga Impact kart, you can exploit its forced trade capabilities. Of course, don't use SD LO Giga Impact Kart if you have a team full of stall mons or something, but in this case you probably wouldn't be using Kart in the first place. It's like using Screens Regieleki or Mega Sableye; they are incredibly good on the playstyles they fit in, but they are very bad elsewhere.
yea but the thing is this set really doesn't have too big of a niche. It's role on teams (from what I understand) is lead off and surprise people with sash (which may not always work) and just kinda deal damage. However: 1. Kart can't deal enough wallbreaking damage without a boosting item or move, so against any team with any sort of defensive backbone, it's gonna flop and it's only gonna be able to knock off stuff. and 2. Lots of people on balanced or offensive teams like to lead off with a Scarfed mon with a pivot move, and if that's the case all the opponent has to do is click U-turn and this strategy's usefulness is removed.
The fact that this Kart can't break means that its consistent usefulness would be limited to against offensive teams. However, Kartana loses/gives up progress to many common leads on hyper offense, such as screens Regieleki (eleki sets up reflect turn 1 and lives a leaf blade, and can either die after setting up screens or volt switch out into Magearna or Moltres-G or Garchomp or another screens sweeper) and Landorus-T (after intimidate Kartana can't 2HKO landorus, and Scarf Lando EQ 2HKOs back, and if they're lead Lando they can set up rocks then boom or something). So if it can't beat HO, and it can't beat teams with a defensive core, all it can really do is lead turn 1 and hope that the opponent goes for the kill instead of clicking U-turn, or switching out into a defensive piece, or setting up hazards/screens/trick room that will benefit it's team in the long run.
I'm not saying Focus Sash Kartana is unusable. Kartana without a boosting item can still hit decently hard against offensive mons, and the threat of SD LO Giga Impact may have the opponent making choke plays. We here in the metagame discussion thread can't make you use something or not; all we can tell you is that if your goal is strictly and only to build good teams and win matches, in our collective opinion that set is not the way to do it.
Have you actually played Kartana without an Attack-boosting item? Just wondering, since it doesn't seem like you have experience with it. I've actually played with it, and it hits much harder than you're downplaying it to be. Also, you're forgetting how much a player can literally just switch to avoid sash being broken by pivot mon, or switch when they see hail, and if I'm not wrong you've never shown a way to prevent LO Kartana from being one-shot. And what do you mean "collective opinion"? I still got 5 likes and 2 loves on that comment, and aside from you, only one person has disagreed after the edit.
First gotta apologize since apparently saying "collective opinion" is offensive. I was trying to say it in a certain way and it's wrong so I apologize.
This'll be the last time I'll be responding to one of your posts about Focus Sash Kart, because I have a strong feeling I'm not gonna be able to change your mind even if I do end up winning the argument. Plus, my point has never been that sash Kart is unusable. If you specifically build your team around it I'm sure it'll put in some great work by virtue of being Kart and i'm you'll get some funny hahas when the opponent stays in with Latios or something. My point has always been it's not going to put in work that SD LO Kart couldn't do on a game-to-game basis, kind of like using Life Orb Calm Mind Clefable in this meta: it's still going to be walling Urshifu and check certain Dragapult, and it'll occasionally put in work with Calm Mind, but walling Urshifu and checking those Dragapult are things that regular Clefable is also going to do. CM Clef is also not going to be able to set up Rocks or spread yellow magic like regular clef can, and in my (singular) opinion being able to do damage with boosted clef against 1 team out of 10 doesn't make up for the lost utility that the regular set provides. Focus sash kart can still break through certain mons, and occasionally claim a surprise KO with its sash, but SD LO kart can also break through those certain mons while being able to threaten a much wider list of mons with Giga Impact. In my opinion, being able to threaten pretty much everything after an SD (used after a forced switch against a mon that Kart can beat) is more rewarding than being able to claim those surprise KOs in the long run. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to your teams, but that's just my take on it. You did, after all, post in a metagame discussion thread.
Hits harder on what? I'm not denying that Kart is strong enough to 2HKO clef, or OHKO Dragapult, or 2HKO Garchomp. However, the fact is that most teams will have a switch-in to Kartana and Focus sash Kart can barely threaten them at all (unless it's knock on Moltres), which +2 Giga Impact Kart can. That's what makes SD LO Kart so powerful.
You can switch to avoid having your sash broken by a pivot mon, but then what if the opposing player actually has a suicide lead Landorus-T which just set up rocks, and now your Kart's sash is broken? Switching out to avoid a U-turn is always going to give up momentum, too. Plus, many things that have pivot moves, like Urshifu, Pheromosa, and Dragapult, are all things you're going to want to stay in and risk sash on too, it's a 50/50 on whether they use the strong move trying to be "safe" or U-turn out predicting a switch.
SD LO Giga Impact Kartana is supposed to die after it uses Giga Impact. I mean, it has the recharge turn, it's not supposed to do anything else. It's like Pheromosa: it pretty much dies to anything anyways, but it doesn't stop it from being good and borderline broken. My point: Kart isn't supposed to be taking hits. With sash it can, but it can only take one hit and it can only take that one hit situationally. And it can't always switch in without having its sash broken and its entire purpose gone. In essence, I don't need to show a way to prevent SD LO Kart from being one-shot. If it's about to be one shot that's because I want to sack it, I've missplayed somewhere, or I can just switch out.
This'll be the last time I'll be responding to one of your posts about Focus Sash Kart, because I have a strong feeling I'm not gonna be able to change your mind even if I do end up winning the argument. Plus, my point has never been that sash Kart is unusable. If you specifically build your team around it I'm sure it'll put in some great work by virtue of being Kart and i'm you'll get some funny hahas when the opponent stays in with Latios or something. My point has always been it's not going to put in work that SD LO Kart couldn't do on a game-to-game basis, kind of like using Life Orb Calm Mind Clefable in this meta: it's still going to be walling Urshifu and check certain Dragapult, and it'll occasionally put in work with Calm Mind, but walling Urshifu and checking those Dragapult are things that regular Clefable is also going to do. CM Clef is also not going to be able to set up Rocks or spread yellow magic like regular clef can, and in my (singular) opinion being able to do damage with boosted clef against 1 team out of 10 doesn't make up for the lost utility that the regular set provides. Focus sash kart can still break through certain mons, and occasionally claim a surprise KO with its sash, but SD LO kart can also break through those certain mons while being able to threaten a much wider list of mons with Giga Impact. In my opinion, being able to threaten pretty much everything after an SD (used after a forced switch against a mon that Kart can beat) is more rewarding than being able to claim those surprise KOs in the long run. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to your teams, but that's just my take on it. You did, after all, post in a metagame discussion thread.
It's not offensive, but idk if it's true either.
Defog can erase rocks, or I can run Cinderace with Court Change, but yeah, that makes sense.
Wow, giving your opponent free Moxie, Beast Boost, Soul-Heart, Chilling or Grim Neigh. Smart.
I mean, yeah. You've convinced me that other sets are more viable depending on the circumstance, but what I'm saying is that Sash Kartana is still a viable option. By chance, do you have any suggestions for a better Sash Kartana set than what I have rn?
SD would actually be decent on a sash set, probably over smart strike because of how little steel hits. Sash could potentially give you a free set up so you can do more damage before you're KO'd. +2 leaf blade does a ton to anything that doesn't resist it, and hits fairy harder than an unboosted smart strike would because of its low power. Focus sash is not a great item in this meta because of all the priority + other chip damage that can break sash, but it's certainly not bad
Sash Kartana is not worth using 99/100 times. Let’s assume this is not the 1 and move on to other topics for the sake of everyone’s sanity.
Agreed. (And if you are interested in a glass cannon, I suggest regieleki as an alternative) Switching gears, What are your guys thoughts on Wonder Room? It seems like it could be amazing when used correctly, (walling physical attackers with Blissey, breaking an opponents wall, etc.) But I'm stumped on ideas. It's probably just a gimmick unless mastered, but I'd find it really cool if we could assimilate our collective knowledge into this. (Also, I'm a bit of a noob, so pls excuse me if I'm somewhat ignorant!)
Thanks for reading!
The main issue with strategies like Wonder Room are that they take particular Pokemon and a whole turn to set up to begin with, which makes it much less worthwhile when you only get a handful of turns to position yourself and take advantage of it to begin with.
If it had a bit more of a surefire approach or degree of effectiveness, it could very well catch on, but right now it is a gimmick at best unfortunately.
If it had a bit more of a surefire approach or degree of effectiveness, it could very well catch on, but right now it is a gimmick at best unfortunately.
Maybe stuff like a grassy surge equivalent, or more turns could really make it practical.
I am only going to respond since bb skarm tagged me about it...
My use of Sash Kartana is unique because I use it on a Sash Spam offense, where the team is played in mind of spamming the potential of Focus Sash. In most situations, Life Orb is probably preferred for damage output, or Protective Pads to ensure it isn't worn down to Helmet, Iron Barbs, Static and Flame Body.
However, Sash is not a bad item choice if you can maintain pressure on the opponent to keep rocks off your side of the field. It can force a lot of switches and bait a free Swords Dance, after it kills something and gets to +3 the lack of Life Orb becomes unnoticeable, and you can bait your opponent to revenge kill you and bop them with your Sash. Kartana's speed tier is really strong in this new meta, so usually the opponent has only one or two Pokemon that can jump Kartana, so sometimes having a Focus Sash allows it to snowball. It is really powerful with just having access to SD or grabbing an early boost with Beast Boost, so you honestly do not require LO if your team is setup right, and while Sash might not trigger every match, it does remove some of Kartana"s shortcomings and can bait a lot of things.
I think people only brought up Kartana for its VR/usage stats right? As a whole, Kartana is strong regardless of its item choice, a lot of teams are unprepared to handle it after a SD boost or its Beast Boosts get going. I think most of us could agree on that.
Sorry if my post is a little short, I am reply on mobile. I can provide 2000+ power games with Sash Kartana if needed to prove it is worth discussing, i also used a team with it to make suspect requirements. [Deleted parts of my edit because I'll just DM the person in question about it sometime.]
My use of Sash Kartana is unique because I use it on a Sash Spam offense, where the team is played in mind of spamming the potential of Focus Sash. In most situations, Life Orb is probably preferred for damage output, or Protective Pads to ensure it isn't worn down to Helmet, Iron Barbs, Static and Flame Body.
However, Sash is not a bad item choice if you can maintain pressure on the opponent to keep rocks off your side of the field. It can force a lot of switches and bait a free Swords Dance, after it kills something and gets to +3 the lack of Life Orb becomes unnoticeable, and you can bait your opponent to revenge kill you and bop them with your Sash. Kartana's speed tier is really strong in this new meta, so usually the opponent has only one or two Pokemon that can jump Kartana, so sometimes having a Focus Sash allows it to snowball. It is really powerful with just having access to SD or grabbing an early boost with Beast Boost, so you honestly do not require LO if your team is setup right, and while Sash might not trigger every match, it does remove some of Kartana"s shortcomings and can bait a lot of things.
I think people only brought up Kartana for its VR/usage stats right? As a whole, Kartana is strong regardless of its item choice, a lot of teams are unprepared to handle it after a SD boost or its Beast Boosts get going. I think most of us could agree on that.
Sorry if my post is a little short, I am reply on mobile. I can provide 2000+ power games with Sash Kartana if needed to prove it is worth discussing, i also used a team with it to make suspect requirements. [Deleted parts of my edit because I'll just DM the person in question about it sometime.]
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Hi,
I've been playing competitive Pokemon on and off for 8 years and I just got back to it after almost a year (played the first week of SS and stopped). I've only been playing for two weeks now and I already have multiple accounts in high ladder (took some time, the meta has changed in ways I could never have imagined). I've read up a little on this thread and tbh, I'm not sure how it entirely works, so sorry if I'm breaking a rule here - but can we just talk about who will the next suspect after Pheromosa be, and can it be Urshifu for the love of god?
I agree that Pheromosa is broken, but I genuinely think Urshifu is the most unhealthy mon in the metagame right now. Here's my 2 cents:
Wicked Blow
So yeah I just feel like Urshifu is very unhealthy for the meta and I wanted to see what other people think.
I also saw people talk about Magearna earlier and just wanted to say that I do agree it's easily one of the best offensive threats in the meta right now, especially due to how unpredictable her set is. (however I still think Urshifu is worse)
Bonus: Here's a cool mon that is actually very underrated and walls both Urshifu and Pheromosa, almost all their varients. It also walls Rillaboom, Landorus-T, Hydreigon (non-flash cannon), Garchomp and Clefable.
Weezing-Galar @ Rocky Helmet / Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-o-Wisp / Dazzling Gleam
- Defog / Haze / Toxic Spikes
I've been playing competitive Pokemon on and off for 8 years and I just got back to it after almost a year (played the first week of SS and stopped). I've only been playing for two weeks now and I already have multiple accounts in high ladder (took some time, the meta has changed in ways I could never have imagined). I've read up a little on this thread and tbh, I'm not sure how it entirely works, so sorry if I'm breaking a rule here - but can we just talk about who will the next suspect after Pheromosa be, and can it be Urshifu for the love of god?
I agree that Pheromosa is broken, but I genuinely think Urshifu is the most unhealthy mon in the metagame right now. Here's my 2 cents:
Wicked Blow
- It's braindead. The combination of his high base Attack stack and this STAB BS move is so braindead broken it's not even funny. When was the last time we had a highly used physically offensive threat that shreds even max defense Lando-T despite not having a super effective move. I mean don't get me wrong I'm enjoying the fact that Lando-t isn't as oppressive as it was in Gen 7 but I'm just saying that this shows that Urshifu is just built different.
- It's hard to punish defensively. Clef for example will take a huge amount of damage from CB Wicked Blow, and is forced to soft-boil so that it's healthy enough to switch back into Urshifu again. If you double to gain momentum that means your Clef cannot come in on Urshifu next time. Fini will take the hit with possible entry hazards and cannot recover the health, meaning it could only be used 1-2 times to answer Urshifu. Rocky Helmet Clefable is honestly a sad gimmick. Buzzwole is the only true risk-free counter.
- It's hard to punish offensively. Wicked Blow is so strong that, combined with Urshifu's solid bulk, you have a pokemon that can revenge kill or threaten out Urshifu 100% of the time or you can risk taking a big hit. For example Garchomp cannot properly threaten out Urshifu unless it's weakened or you're banded. Otherwise Urshifu can stay in and do a buttload of damage, or at least threaten to do so. Also, previously safe set up mons like Gyarados or Landorus-T who always preyed on locked-in physically offensive pokemon cannot stomach a hit well enough to set up. Only Magearna and a few other mons can really threaten a set-up
- It's gatekeeping. It's gatekeeping defensive set-up sweepers. Any set up pokemon that is slower than Urshifu that does not resist Wicked Blow is just straight up not viable. CM Reuniclus, CM Slowbro, and curse Gastrodon are prime examples. Everyone remembers how good Reuniclus was in Gen 7. An extremely strong and potent pokemon that always threatened to sweep if you're not prepared. Iron Defense sets could get through dark types with the help of T-spikes, or at least you could stomach a hit and fire back with Focus Blast. Similarly, CM Slowbro can easily sweep unprepared teams, as even after 1 CM it can take on most non-super effective special attackers, and it rarely got one shot from physical dark types. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a huge champion of curse Gastrodon so I can be a little biased here, but even healthy sets like that have no place in OU, partly because of the heavy usage of Toxic, but mainly because even if you get +6 defense on Gastrodon Urshifu can just OHKO you. Basically only Clefable, Fini, and Magearna can set up Calm Mind with Urshifu in the back. Even the Iron Defense + Body Press Magnezone (I'm in love with this set btw) cannot sweep offensive teams at +6 if they have Urshifu, since Wicked Blow will usually finish off Magnezone. It literally can live a hit from Cinderace or Garchmp, but not Urshifu.
- Any BO/Balanced team without Clef, Fini, or Buzzwole just gets shredded. Either that or you have a Magearna/Mandibuzz + Toxapex/Lando-t and you have to 50/50 everytime it's in. Maybe Koko can take a hit and swing momentum your way if your team is fast paced enough. Buzzwole the hardest counter is hard to fit on every team because of its huge momentum sap. Like I literally cannot build a slower team without having a Clefable, Fini, or Buzzwole on my team. I don't like having to coinflip the entire game on the 50/50 between going to lando or magearna every other game. It sucks.
- I always thought that Nidoking is an extremely underrated threat in OU, all the way back to gen 6. But the fact that it was #20 in usage and it's THIS common is mainly due to how amazing it is as a partner to Urshifu. Of course it's really good at killing balanced or lazy defensive cores, but I feel like the biggest factor to how effective it is, is simply because how good of a teammate it is to Urshifu.
- You cannot run Wish+Protect on Clefable if it's your only Urshifu answer. I mean it's not that big of a deal but it just adds to how annoying this mon is.
- It's not as versatile as Pheromosa, but it's versatile enough for a top tier threat. Even on the CB set it has options. Obviously you want CC+WB, but then you can have U-turn for momentum or to bait Clefable/Fini in to get in your Nidoking for free. You can have Sucker Punch for some strong priority vs. faster teams. And Sucker Punch is actually good, not like gen 7 when Lele was everywhere. You can have Poison Jab for the fairies like Clefable and Fini to make the opponent second guess going into them, or just outright 2HKO them on the switch. I've even seen Aerial Ace to 2HKO Buzzwole. It's gimmicky, but it's there.
- Although CB is undoubtedly its best set, it can run Scarf to be a solid revenge killer. I also saw people run Adamant Life Orb Bulk Up to break fat teams that rely on Clefable or Fini (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 328-387 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) - all it needs is a little bit of chip on Clef, which is not too hard.
So yeah I just feel like Urshifu is very unhealthy for the meta and I wanted to see what other people think.
I also saw people talk about Magearna earlier and just wanted to say that I do agree it's easily one of the best offensive threats in the meta right now, especially due to how unpredictable her set is. (however I still think Urshifu is worse)
Bonus: Here's a cool mon that is actually very underrated and walls both Urshifu and Pheromosa, almost all their varients. It also walls Rillaboom, Landorus-T, Hydreigon (non-flash cannon), Garchomp and Clefable.
Weezing-Galar @ Rocky Helmet / Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-o-Wisp / Dazzling Gleam
- Defog / Haze / Toxic Spikes
I've been utilizing AV Reuniclus as a galarian slowking replacement on balance teams to some success.
Reuniclus @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Future Sight
- Knock Off
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
My main problem using galarian king was how it got shredded by psyshock from tapu lele and latios, so reuniclus's pure psychic type is able to be a much better check to those threats, having knock off as well is an added bonus, as well as having an extra power boost on future sights.
It is although frailer on the special side and has less coverage and resistances, so g-slowking is probably the better AV regen mon.
Reuniclus @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Future Sight
- Knock Off
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
My main problem using galarian king was how it got shredded by psyshock from tapu lele and latios, so reuniclus's pure psychic type is able to be a much better check to those threats, having knock off as well is an added bonus, as well as having an extra power boost on future sights.
It is although frailer on the special side and has less coverage and resistances, so g-slowking is probably the better AV regen mon.