Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #2753)

[bb skarm]

I genuinely do not get how anyone makes it up to the required. Its absurd the amount of stall and slow, bulky shitfests that are festering in 1000 to 1200. And NO MATTER WHAT, it is near-impossible to break ANY of them due to their bulk. Fucking Pheromosa, the supposed broke ass bitch, cant pile their bunker without folding like kartana. How the shit does anyone make it up to the required 80 Gex

If you're struggling against bulkier teams, use Nidoking and Rillaboom (banded or Swords Dance). Nidoking demolishes those ClefPex cores that frustrate everybody as well as so many common bulky mons like Moltres Zapdos Heatran Ferro etc. while Rillaboom wrecks just about everything else because Nidoking eliminates three of its biggest checks in the aforementioned birds and Heatran. Stallier teams with Skarmory and Quag also get crushed by this core. Those two also wipe out a lot of common sweepers checks and break the opposing team down a ton which can open the door for mons who want to set up i.e. Volcarona

Trying using Pheromosa as an offensive pivot rather than trying to outright crush teams with it from the get go (if you're using Quiver Dance, try to force a switch to set a QD up). STAB U-turn coming of its attack stat is one of the greatest tools you have to pressure other teams and put the momentum of the game in your favor. Grabbing some momentum early and getting in breakers to give them chances to wear down the opposing team can clear the way for Pheromosa itself to finish the opposing weakened team off and wrap the game up.

 

[Negative Charge]

I genuinely do not get how anyone makes it up to the required. Its absurd the amount of stall and slow, bulky shitfests that are festering in 1000 to 1200. And NO MATTER WHAT, it is near-impossible to break ANY of them due to their bulk. Fucking Pheromosa, the supposed broke ass bitch, cant pile their bunker without folding like kartana. How the shit does anyone make it up to the required 80 Gex

another pro tip is to play extremely late at night (US Eastern Time Zone), stall peaks around dinner time in my experience (stall players get tucked in around 8pm jk but not really). You should try running FuturePort + fighting type because it's really effective at messing up fat cores. all the bros and kings don't really give a shit about Toxapex and can actually use it to start momentum generating plays, which is basically unheard of against Pex.

 

[Zneon]

Thundurus-T​

Yo guys, it's me. I haven't made a post here in a hot minute so I want to go over something, Rain. I am not exploring the whole archetype because a lot of posts have done that already, however after using rain for quite a bit, I want to talk about Thundurus-T. I really like this Pokemon on rain and its a huge threat depending on the moveset, which I have been experimenting with by playing a lot of games with it. In my eyes, Thunder / Weather Ball / Focus Blast are the moves that should always be used on Thundurus-T because it hits everything you really want to. Thunder 2HKos almost everything neutrally, Weather Ball bops the Grounds and Focus Blast hits 2 very important targets in Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, which can be hit nuisances to rain teams. However the last move can be different, and in this post I want to go over the moves you can use on the 4th move slot.

Nasty Plot

This is pretty self-explanatory. Nasty Plot in rain, combined with Thunder turns Thundurus-T into an absolute unwallable nuke, and its truly insane how hard it hits. Its base 101 Speed tier is pretty great and being able to outspeed base 100s is a very important and useful attribute to Thundurus-T's favour. Thunder at +2 can OHKO almost every single Pokemon in the tier, and even resists are capable of being 2HKOd by Thunder, the sturdier Electric resists and electric immunes that don't get bopped by Thunder get beat by either Focus Blast or Weather Ball. The main problem I would say would the fact that its still outsped by Latios, Cinderace, Garchomp, Dragapult etc. However, getting into the next move.

Agility

I've been experimenting with this quite a bit too and it works pretty well in my eyes. It can now afford to run Modest to make its attacks pack more of a punch and instead of acting as a unwallable breaker under rain, it can act as a cleaner under rain since it still hits ludicrously hard and the still performs as a genuine offensive threat against almost any team under rain due to how effective the first 3 moves are on it are, which is why I rate those so highly on Thundurus-T, they not only hit everything you want to but allows it to free up the last move, and Agility is a big part of that in my eyes since you can forgo Nasty Plot for Agility or Agility for Nasty Plot depending on the rain team. So yeah, I like agility quite a bit and does a lot in the potency on Thundurus-T under rain.

Substitute

Someone mentioned this in the OU discord and I was curious, so I used it a bit. Honestly its quite decent, its not amazing though as its situational depending mid-game and late-game since it doesn't really get that many opportunities to get up a Substitute since it is pretty frail still. However once it does get that Substitute up it can be a huge threat. Substitute allows Thundurus-T to ease prediction and it firing off its powerful attacks becomes less risky. I feel Substitute is less rewarding than Agility or Nasty Plot but its really because of the payoff that those 2 give, however I still feel Substitute while worse than both Agility and Nasty Plot to be a pretty viable option of Thundurus-T on rain teams and I feel should see some more experimentation.

===

So yeah that's all. Thundurus-T is a pretty cool rain option and I love how rewarding it can feel sometimes despite it not being that easy to fit onto rain compared to stuff like Tornadus-T, Urshifu-RS and Kingdra, however its super powerful on rain nonetheless and I encourage more people to use it. I hope you guys enjoyed this post!

 

[BlameTheBlax]

I can't believe I'm actually making this post wtf
So with the relatively recent ban of Zygarde, I've been looking at other 'mons to fill the hole in my heart (and my teambuilder) for Ground types that can circumvent the rise of the Birdemic. Alas, I find myself back at my roots, for no matter how much things change, some things never do.

Obviously, Zydog is not the OU threat that his counterpart is. While the OG can run multiple threatening sets, with DD, Coil, and Glare all being prevalent and threatening options available, Zydog really only has a single viable set, being Choice Band. With that said, what makes me consider Zydog to have a niche amongst more established Ground types such as Nidoking, Landorus-T, Excadrill, or even Mamoswine? Well, I'd be lying if I said it's not Thousand Arrows. The prescense of HDB on bulky birds is, in my opinion, what holds a lot of Ground types back. The reason Nidoking has become an OU staple all of a sudden, in my opinion, is the fact that it can still beat said birds. However, Zydog doesn't get that same respect. Let's do the math on Zydog before breaking down why I think it holds a candle to the other options.

Hide

The prescense of HDB on bulky birds is, in my opinion, what holds a lot of Ground types back. The reason Nidoking has become an OU staple all of a sudden, in my opinion, is the fact that it can still beat said birds. However, Zydog doesn't get that same respect.

Moltres before Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Moltres: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Moltres after Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Moltres: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos before Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 147-174 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos after Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 294-348 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight before Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Corviknight: 141-166 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 74.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight after Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Corviknight: 282-332 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You get the idea, none of these birds can switch into Thousand Arrows and take the following hit. The exception to this rule in OU currently is Mandibuzz, who's usage has skyrocketed as a response to Spectrier. While I could make the bold claim that with a Spectrier ban, that number will dip, I'd like to instead just present that Zydog can still do hefty damage if Mandibuzz gets chipped, or even status it since the fourth move slot is limited to Glare or Toxic.

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-163 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 184-217 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

So, now that I've shown it has the damage numbers to do the job we need, we reach the meat and potatoes of the argument. Why exactly would you run Zydog over any of the other Grounds, and should you? Reason 1, it's fast as fuck boi. Zydog is naturally faster than every other Ground type in the meta atm, and while it loses out on the raw damage they possess, a Choice Band really helps mitigate that lost power. On top of that, you get the obvious benefit of not having 'mons switch into your Ground STAB for free (disregarding Buzzwole, of course). Reason 2, Extreme Speed. None of these Ground types have priority, which means that unless they run a Scarf, they lose out to a lot of the fast bullshit in the tier. While Zydog resides in the same boat, losing out on speed to things like Koko, Cinderace, and Pheromosa, it has the ability to still hit them all before taking damage itself, making it a solid revenge killer and potential late game cleaner.

Hide

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 125-148 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 138-163 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 233-275 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, with that said, there's obviously still counters. Buzzwole is a prime example, as something who didn't give a fuck about the better version in OU, Slowbro and Clefable frankly doesn't give a damn about it unless Glare really pulls some funky stuff, Spectrier not only outspeeds, but outright kills the Dog on Specs sets, and the aforementioned Mandibuzz can't be 2HKO'd without some prior chip. That said, I think there's certainly a niche for this 'mon, especially so long as you pair it with a strong defensive pivot backbone and fellow breakers like Urshifu, Spectrier, and Rillaboom.

 

[Ox the Fox]

I've been using two sets recently that can really take advantage of and break the type of balance teams being used on top ladder/smogon tour:

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Roost

The first of these two sets is sub bulk up Corviknight. This is a set that was used a bit in DLC1 but as a whole Corviknight was generally favored as a defogger. While in DLC2, I still think defog corvi is good as it checks a plethora of mons like Landot, Tapu Lele, and Hydreigon, I think the sub bulk up set is heavily underutilized. This can setup on common defensive mons like Slowbro and Clefable and tends to snowball out of control if the opponent doesn't have a very specific check. There honestly aren't even too many things that can beat it, two of which being haze Toxapex and Heatran, the latter being fairly easy to knock off/whittle down. This set is also obviously still able to check the things that defog corviknight can check, just without the ability to defog which really isn't hard to do in this meta.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Roost

LO Hydreigon is a super nasty set rn and is on my current ladder team. Most people are favoring defog hydreigon over it due to its ability to check stuff like Heatran and Spectrier, but the LO set is still a huge breaker. A lot of things that try switching into defog hydreigon like Mandibuzz and Magearna get nasty plotted on as they switch in, and then die to a Draco/Earth Power. The only thing that really stops this at +2 is either revenge killing it with a faster mon or with Clefable. Flash Cannon is a possibility over earth power but then you lose out on the ability to hit tran and mage which is a huge issue in this meta. Also clef isn't that hard to knock off/paralyze if you have the right team support and can be easily be put in +2 earth power range.

Here's a team with this set if anyone wants to try it out, currently #3 with it: https://pokepast.es/a56328d1995b8cea


On a side note I don't think Pheromosa is that broken despite the high likelihood it's getting banned, and I think Magearna is a way bigger issue in the current meta. Hoping it gets tested soon after the phero test is over as its ability to cheese wins with one of the setup sets is way too high + its obviously other good sets in scarf and specs.

 

[RaikouLover]

Thundurus-T​

Yo guys, it's me. I haven't made a post here in a hot minute so I want to go over something, Rain. I am not exploring the whole archetype because a lot of posts have done that already, however after using rain for quite a bit, I want to talk about Thundurus-T. I really like this Pokemon on rain and its a huge threat depending on the moveset, which I have been experimenting with by playing a lot of games with it. In my eyes, Thunder / Weather Ball / Focus Blast are the moves that should always be used on Thundurus-T because it hits everything you really want to. Thunder 2HKos almost everything neutrally, Weather Ball bops the Grounds and Focus Blast hits 2 very important targets in Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, which can be hit nuisances to rain teams. However the last move can be different, and in this post I want to go over the moves you can use on the 4th move slot.

Nasty Plot

This is pretty self-explanatory. Nasty Plot in rain, combined with Thunder turns Thundurus-T into an absolute unwallable nuke, and its truly insane how hard it hits. Its base 101 Speed tier is pretty great and being able to outspeed base 100s is a very important and useful attribute to Thundurus-T's favour. Thunder at +2 can OHKO almost every single Pokemon in the tier, and even resists are capable of being 2HKOd by Thunder, the sturdier Electric resists and electric immunes that don't get bopped by Thunder get beat by either Focus Blast or Weather Ball. The main problem I would say would the fact that its still outsped by Latios, Cinderace, Garchomp, Dragapult etc. However, getting into the next move.

Agility

I've been experimenting with this quite a bit too and it works pretty well in my eyes. It can now afford to run Modest to make its attacks pack more of a punch and instead of acting as a unwallable breaker under rain, it can act as a cleaner under rain since it still hits ludicrously hard and the still performs as a genuine offensive threat against almost any team under rain due to how effective the first 3 moves are on it are, which is why I rate those so highly on Thundurus-T, they not only hit everything you want to but allows it to free up the last move, and Agility is a big part of that in my eyes since you can forgo Nasty Plot for Agility or Agility for Nasty Plot depending on the rain team. So yeah, I like agility quite a bit and does a lot in the potency on Thundurus-T under rain.

Substitute

Someone mentioned this in the OU discord and I was curious, so I used it a bit. Honestly its quite decent, its not amazing though as its situational depending mid-game and late-game since it doesn't really get that many opportunities to get up a Substitute since it is pretty frail still. However once it does get that Substitute up it can be a huge threat. Substitute allows Thundurus-T to ease prediction and it firing off its powerful attacks becomes less risky. I feel Substitute is less rewarding than Agility or Nasty Plot but its really because of the payoff that those 2 give, however I still feel Substitute while worse than both Agility and Nasty Plot to be a pretty viable option of Thundurus-T on rain teams and I feel should see some more experimentation.

===

So yeah that's all. Thundurus-T is a pretty cool rain option and I love how rewarding it can feel sometimes despite it not being that easy to fit onto rain compared to stuff like Tornadus-T, Urshifu-RS and Kingdra, however its super powerful on rain nonetheless and I encourage more people to use it. I hope you guys enjoyed this post!

Thundurus-T is an excellent pick on rain in the meta right now. It's actually very easy to fit on rain teams because the only other viable "rain centric" electric immunities are Seismitoad and Swampert. There are niche options like Zeraora as well but Thundurus-T is a good deal better due to its sky-high special attack, passable speed tier, and fantastic typing. I like Grass Knot & WeatherBall as the coverage options because Focus Blast is crap and Grass Knot provides a good middle ground for whacking things like Tyranitar, Gastrodon, and Hippowdown which can bother the rest of the team. I find agility typically isn't worth it because rain has Swift Swimmers to clean up teams and Thundurus-T is a really good breaker that can overpower Blissey and those fat shit Pex / Clef cores.

View attachment 298249
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Roost

LO Hydreigon is a super nasty set rn and is on my current ladder team. Most people are favoring defog hydreigon over it due to its ability to check stuff like Heatran and Spectrier, but the LO set is still a huge breaker. A lot of things that try switching into defog hydreigon like Mandibuzz and Magearna get nasty plotted on as they switch in, and then die to a Draco/Earth Power. The only thing that really stops this at +2 is either revenge killing it with a faster mon or with Clefable. Flash Cannon is a possibility over earth power but then you lose out on the ability to hit tran and mage which is a huge issue in this meta. Also clef isn't that hard to knock off/paralyze if you have the right team support and can be easily be put in +2 earth power range.

I'm also going to cosign this here. Hydreigon is such a fun mon to use the meta right now due to its ability to check both Heatran & Spectrier in one slot. I've been tinkering around with a custom set myself that I made for sun teams:

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 12 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Roost

This plays like an old Gen4 Mixed Salamence because nothing is safe, especially if you are good with predicting. Fire moves become psuedo-STAB with sun support. Fire Blast as always yields better calcs than Flamethrower but the latter is better for breaking Spectrier's subs and still kills most things you need it to.

Relevant Calcs

12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 715-845 (100.1 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 377-447 (97.6 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 437-515 (108.1 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 201-238 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna in Sun: 330-390 (90.6 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna in Sun: 403-476 (110.7 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu in Sun: 342-403 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz in Sun: 205-242 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 298-351 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

I haven't been able to make a groundbreaking sun team to make use of it, but this is what I have so far. I think sun in general isn't very good right now due to Sand and Rain being so dominant. Also, sun has to always think about how much punishment they can take from Cinderace & Blaziken.

 

[DynamaxBestMeta]

I dont exactly get why people prop up Heatran as a counter, or even a general check em, to magearna. i get its low elo as fuck, but the principles still apply.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1240251125-qjqpzoyvt1ge162roiln63n5i8t8q6vpw
unless mitigated, chip damage will enable even a plus 1 magearna to end it, not even counting the fact that aura sphere is 2/3 as strong as the typically used focus blast.
if caught by surprise I can see gear losing, but otherwise its all downhill from there.

[Edit] Holy fuck if screens are up its near impossible to dogpile on magearna. double screen uturn koko is working well enough, but my main problem is shift gear vs calm mind, in which should be used first

 

[AM]

I dont exactly get why people prop up Heatran as a counter, or even a general check em, to magearna. i get its low elo as fuck, but the principles still apply.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1240251125-qjqpzoyvt1ge162roiln63n5i8t8q6vpw
unless mitigated, chip damage will enable even a plus 1 magearna to end it, not even counting the fact that aura sphere is 2/3 as strong as the typically used focus blast.
if caught by surprise I can see gear losing, but otherwise its all downhill from there.

Because it doesnt unless its loaded with special defense which your variant doesnt appear to be which I can tell by the balloon. Heatran will normally beat the Shift Gear/Calm Mind/Stored Power/Draining Kiss variants if relatively healthy. But yes not sure where Heatran was discussed as a counter to Mag since I dont think I’ve ever seen that said in a serious manner.

 

[RaikouLover]

Magearna has solid checks the problem is the checks diverge between sets and the Specs set has no opportunity cost. That’s really the set that puts Mage over the top. Once you figure out the set counter play exists but it can often be too late.

For example, Glowking is a decent switch into specs but is set up fodder for Double Dancer. Victini,Volcarona, Cinderace, Bulky SD Scizor are pretty good answers for Double Dance sets but take meaningless chip if they switch into a Specs Volt Switch. Marowak A is slower and takes a shit ton from Fluer. Pex can switch into Specs to some extent but if not brought out at full health immediately vs. DDs will lose to Stored Power. Heatran and Excadrill can also beat DD but can get KOed switching into Specs. Specs Magnezone can revenge trap Specs sets and deal good damage to DD but needs priority from a teammate to finish the job.

Add snowballing to the equation and the battle can be over immediately...

 

[musiquepkmn]

To be fair in the above replay the person is using the heat LO CM Aura Sphere/Focus Blast set.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 286-338 (74 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 429-507 (111.1 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is a common Heatran spread. Heatran is generally a check but only that, as it's 2HKOed by specs Aura Sphere and easily chipped by Volt Switch. It does stop the common virgin Draining Kiss + Stored Power sets and encourages mag to not just spam stabs, but it also easily loses to fighting move.

 

[Kyotoshi]

I see Magearna discussion and I can't help myself...

This mon is Bullshit with a capital B. It was bs in gen 7, then they took away z moves and gave it (more predictable) but just as bs tools to work with in gen 8 via draining kiss and trick. RaikouLover was spot on with their post on magearna. Defensive counterplay to this mon does exist but you have to know which set you're dealing with first and fitting answers to both the double dance set and specs set on one team can be quite tricky.

Magearna @ Leftovers/Weakness Policy
Ability: Soul-Heart
- Shift Gear/Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss

I absolutely despise this thing. Probably one of the most brainless setup sweepers to ever grace OU. With that said, it's actually far more manageable than the specs set imo but still capable of steamrolling underprepped teams. I don't love the dual screens archetype but double dance Magearna abuses it like no other. Doubt that I need to go into more depth about how this mons works because most of you should know already so I'll just look at the counters.

Heatran:
Pretty reliable answer here. Magearna can't suck up hp from a 4x fairy resist which is really important for beating a double dance set. Downsides are that heatran is prone to chip damage so you have to use it sparingly throughout the game if your opponent has Magearna in the back. This goes double for a screens + weakness policy Magearna which can muscle through Heatran surprisingly easily if you aren't careful. Heatran needs to be at near full to deal with this and if you're using magma storm there's always the chance to get tooled by rng. A lot of times you could end up sacking heatran entirely just to get enough chip damage on Magearna to revenge KO or guarantee it will be too weak to do anything else the rest of the game.

Ferrothorn:
Mostly same as above. Draining kiss is a contact move which activates iron barbs so even after a bunch of boosts Magearna won't be able to get much HP back from this. Along with some combination of leech seed, gyro ball, body press, or thunder wave you can take down Magearna handily. Same as heatran, don't take too much chip damage and you should be fine. This set also MUs better vs screens mag and doesn't activate the weakness policy.

Melmetal:
So overbearingly strong that it just blows back Magearna with neutral stab before it gets up any meaningful boosts. As always, avoid chip damage until the Mag is safely removed from the game. A lefties + protect set does this well and negates a lot of chip damage that Melmetal might take. However, the lefties set loses 1v1 to iron defense cm Mag so.... there's that.

Bulky Volcarona:
Here's a good one. Fat Volc can always switch into cm Mag while ignoring hazards via its broken item boots and just set up alongside it. Cm boosting won't save Mag from those strong flamethrowers and you might even get a reverse sweep out of it. Thanks Nintendo, very cool.

Blissey:
Well... kind of. Blissey does beat Mag 1v1 but you need to run either twave + seismic toss or a scummy confide Blissey. These are reliable answers to cm Mag but the opportunity cost of running these moves over other tools (sr, toxic, teleport, wish, heal bell, shadow ball, etc) that Blissey might want is steep.

Excadrill:
Ok so technically any Excadrill set works here (not just a spdef drill) but it's best if you have leftovers for longevity. Cm + shift gear is much more common than cm + iron defense. Excadrill is fine with that and quickly overwhelmes mag with multiple strong EQs. The iron defense set takes those a bit better but since mag is not boosting it's sp att at the same time it fails to reach the necessary momentum to beat drill 1v1. Screens + Weakness policy unfortunately busts this "counter" wide open.

+3 252 SpA Magearna-Original Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 386-454 (106.9 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I initially calc'd this wrong but stored power actually reaches 200 BP after a cm + shift gear + weakness policy

The opponent gets a cm on the turn that drill switches in. Then they hit a shift gear, eat up the EQ activating weakness policy, and proceed to mop your team. Mag can even run a bit of bulk investment so that 252 eq doesn't 2hko with a screen up. Screens in general make offensive counterplay to Magearna quite scarce like, for example, Cinderace which should be able to take Mag on but falls flat vs this set. You might point out that Magearna sweeping seems to rely on activating weakness policy but that's not really true. It's certainly the easiest way that Mag gets the boosts it needs to sweep. However, if you're hitting a Magearna behind screens with neutral attacks, you will do negligible damage (easily recovered by draining kiss) and that Mag will continue to set up in your face until it is ready to sweep. Another problem arises in that if you fail to beat Mag 1v1 with your main counter, you don't get another chance to revenge KO it because it's already at +2 faster than about everything bar Regieleki and certain weather abusers. Magearna will draining kiss all of it's HP back and you will get swept.

This is by no means a comprehensive list of all the random sets that could beat a double dance Mag 1v1 but it's most of the OU relevant ones. At this point you're probably wondering why I'm even complaining about Mag after listing a whole wall of counters. Because now I gotta talk about the other Mag set that beats all of these mons and basically doesn't have defensive counters, just offensive ones.

Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere/Focus Blast
- Trick/Flash Cannon

This is what a monster looks like. Switching into this is a complete guessing game that can cause headaches for fatter teams. Immediately, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and non-AV Melly are dropped as "counters" because aura sphere blows them off the map.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-222 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 408-482 (96.2 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 298-352 (72.5 - 85.6%) You can even lock into fleur cannon and still do huge chunks vs this mon.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 180-214 (40.6 - 48.3%) AV Melmetal hardly takes this any better but it will at least eat up specs fleur cannons which makes it harder on the opponent to lock into the right move.

Same thing goes for heatran but the MU is a bit better because you can invest some speed to outrun magearna.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 212-250 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 186-220 (61.1 - 72.3%) Pex can only afford to switch into the wrong move once before it needs to recover but you won't get that opportunity immediately because the Magearna user will take the volt switch momentum and go into something that forces out Pex (regen will still put you in range of a higher roll from the next volt switch).

Blissey gets tricked a choice specs making it nearly useless for the rest of the game. This obviously weakens Mag a bit and that can make it more manageable for the Blissey team. However, the Mag user still cripples one mon for the entire game and has a 394 sp att stat to volt switch around with into other threatening mons.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 121-143 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO
Fat volc is not a reliable check but it fares quite a bit better than other mons. Pretty much forces the Mag user to click volt switch every time they enter the field.

KOing all of these mons requires correct prediction on the Magearna users part. However, it's not so difficult to make these plays when you consider the pressure that specs Mag is exerting on an opposing team. +1 fleur cannon is obscenely strong and can often claim a KO vs any other mon on the team that isn't an aura sphere target. There is also always the safe volt switch play which notably hits toxapex for big damage and can lock the opponent into a volt-turn vortex. Every time specs Mag enters the field it exerts insane pressure and a bad prediction from the other player can give up momentum and chip damage or give up a KO entirely. Magearna has great typing alongside the slowtwins and abuses teleport to enter the field many times throughout a game. Paired with future sight, it can eliminate toxapex without even needing to get multiple volt switch plays correct.

The only defensive mon that reliably handles specs Mag? BIG GKING

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 66-78 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
This is seriously impressive. An actual testament to how much potential this mon has. Flamethrower has a high chance to 2HKO Mag as well. Note that you still lose 1v1 to cm Mag most of the time... lol.

So yeah, Magearna is incredibly versatile without even mentioning the less popular trick scarf and av sets which don't wallbreak or sweep in the same way that the above sets are intended to do. It's crazy how counterplay to one Magearna set can be turned into complete fodder for another different set. Nobody does it like this bullshit robot. Hoping to see a suspect test at some point....









Psst... hey kid. Yeah you. Want to wall all Magearna sets at once? They said it couldn't be done.

Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
- Protect
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Confide

 

[Liquidocelot]

I've seen people talking about Dracozolt and it's abilities in sand and such and I am here to just clear something up

First off as a lot of people have realized, nonmixed Zolt sucks. It lacks the power to reasonably challenging any decent defensive ground type, which is needs to do thanks to Bolt beak. Also, Ferrothorn fucks you if you don't run fire blast. Now that we've established why physical Zolt sucks, let's move on to the best Zolt set.

Ocelzolt (Dracozolt) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 108 Atk / 212 SpA / 188 Spe
Rash Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast

This is the Ocelzolt set TM. and without a doubt, it's Dracozolts best offensive set. As someone who has played close to a thousand games with this set, let me explain why you should choose this above all other sets.

188 speed EV's allows you to outspeed scarf Lando-T under sand which is the most important benchmark you can hit without losing too much necessary power. (Used to be a bit more to outspeed base 95's before Kyub and Garde were banned.)

212 Spa with a mild nature allows you to always OHKO non defensive variants of Lando-T after stealth rock and Ko defensive variants after SR with Fire blast + Draco Meteor. It also allows guarantee's a ko on Ferrothorn, Rillaboom and physically defensive Buzzwole alongside hitting Magearna and other non Heatran steels types real hard.

The rest goes into attack so you can basically 1-2hko the rest of the tier with Bolt Beak/1hko Heatran with EQ. Life orb is to maximise your mixed attacking abilities.

The reason this set is the definitive Zolt set is that it is calc'd out to hit the most important speed benchmark you can have while also hitting very important benchmarks to get around Zolt's best counters and yet still hit as hard as possible. I can not stress this enough, if you are planning on using sand and Zolt, use this set

 

[shadowpeashooter]

The reason this set is the definitive Zolt set is that it is calc'd out to hit the most important speed benchmark you can have while also hitting very important benchmarks to get around Zolt's best counters and yet still hit as hard as possible. I can not stress this enough, if you are planning on using sand and Zolt, use this team.

Do you mean this team?

And wow you actually did it. MixedZolt is now officially named Ocelzolt :DDDDD
(and for your petition, yes, you have my vote )

 

[Liquidocelot]

Do you mean this team?

And wow you actually did it. MixedZolt is now officially named Ocelzolt :DDDDD
(and for your petition, yes, you have my vote )

Haha meant to say use this set! Thanks for the heads up! As for that team. I am currently in the restructuring phase and Defensive hippowdown destroys this team, so I gotta go back to the drawing board.

 

[ausma]

I see Magearna discussion and I can't help myself...

This mon is Bullshit with a capital B. It was bs in gen 7, then they took away z moves and gave it (more predictable) but just as bs tools to work with in gen 8 via draining kiss and trick. RaikouLover was spot on with their post on magearna. Defensive counterplay to this mon does exist but you have to know which set you're dealing with first and fitting answers to both the double dance set and specs set on one team can be quite tricky.

It is interesting that you bring this up; to be honest, I definitely think Magearna is a potentially problematic Pokemon, and was my other suspect as far as a discussion point goes alongside Urshifu, as it is an immensely polarizing Pokemon. Though, that being said, I don't believe Magearna is as necessarily black and white as Urshifu or Pheromosa given its options and in what way Magearna exploits them.

So, I'd like to ask: What do you guys think of Magearna?



In my eyes, Magearna is definitely a really powerful Pokemon, in fact, it is the best Pokemon in the tier in my opinion, being able to provide apt wallbreaking, cleaning, or even utility depending on the needs of a team. It slots itself fairly soundly on pretty much every viable archetype in the tier thanks to its nearly unmatched set versatility and how good it is at performing at each of its roles. I'd like to bring up my thoughts on each of Magearna's sets, and explain my take regarding its impact on the metagame as a whole.

1: Dual Dance

While I once thought Dual Dance wasn't its best variant back during its initial suspect in DLC1, I have completely changed this perspective, and I think its Dual Dance variants are bar none its best sets right now thanks to stronger facilitation of Screens on HO teams, its phenomenal synergy with the threat of other offensive Pokemon like Bulk Up Urshifu to reap very good setup opportunities, and its unmatched snowballing capabilities. On teams with weaker/chipped Steel-type Pokemon, actually taking this set on when it is behind Screens is incredibly hard to do, not only because of its natural Toxic immunity, but also because trying to muscle through it with super effective moves can risk the proc of its Weakness Policy and make its Stored Powers even more nuclear, and essentially sealing the game on the spot after a Shift Gear. The notable ways to beat Dual Dance Magearna are through four means: Ferrothorn, Heatran, Haze, or Taunt.

As far as Draining Kiss/Stored Power goes, though, Ferrothorn wins the 1v1 if: it is healthy, it sets up a Leech Seed before it starts getting Calm Mind boosts, and it has either Gyro Ball or Body Press. Though, even so, this can be particularly troublesome if Ferrothorn is pressured in checking other threats, which makes this variant of Magearna particularly appealing to me on some Rain cores, especially in tandem with its ability to easily obtain momentum with its myriad of pivoting options to exploit. Heatran is probably the best defensive answer due to its quad resistance to Draining Kiss and its proneness to run SpDef making Stored Power a bit easier to handle; however, terrifyingly, Heatran can be severely chunked by Stored Power even after the fact, and its lack of recovery forces Heatran to be healthy like Ferrothorn if it wants to win the 1v1. Haze is the next way to deal with it, and Toxapex can only accomplish this if it switches in on Magearna's Shift Gear. If Magearna has already found a couple turns to work with, Toxapex is blown apart by Stored Power. Occasionally, I've run Scarf Haze Spectrier to deal with Magearna if it's gotten too snowballed, which does work in a pinch, but it does require folding momentum and risking damage on your Spectrier. Taunt, however, I find to be a pretty solid way of handling it; Heatran boasts this option as well, letting it more consistently win the 1v1. CM Taunt Fini is also a commonality, and it does beat Dual Dance Magearna 1v1 rather soundly.

I think there is far too much pressure in execution to actually deal with this set, especially if it is paired with Pokemon (mainly Urshifu-SS) that force in setup fodder for Magearna and if you have effective ways to pressure Ferrothorn and Heatran (which isn't very hard to do, and are things you should be doing anyway). It doesn't even need Screens support either; if it finds an opportunity against a Pokemon like Mandibuzz or Clefable and your team at the time of setup meets none of the aforementioned conditions, you're dead to rights. Even if you bring answers to this set, I've found it really difficult to beat it without specific conditions, and I find that particularly concerning, especially when it is paired with Pokemon that can readily endanger these conditions. Magearna's ability to mix and match its sets also applies here as well, and innovations such as Focus Blast over Draining Kiss completely render the Ferrothorn and Heatran matchups obsolete to prep for. In tandem with its ability to invariably transform its sets, I find its Dual Dance set to be the most problematic of its sets and alone suspect worthy since while it's incredibly powerful and difficult to stop consistently outside of a few means, it can readily adapt and overcome its few bad matchups with its movepool and readily compatible partners.

2: Choice Specs

With the new additions to the metagame, I think its Choice Specs set isn't as difficult to handle, but is still really powerful since its nuclear and highly spammable Fleur Cannons with Soul Heart to bat forces specific answers in, which Magearna can readily blow down with its access to Fighting-type coverage and powerful utility in order to cover these matchups very soundly. Volt Switch and Trick, specifically, provide fairly versatile means of handling its few switch-ins rather reliably. The former lets the Magearna user obtain momentum against things like Heatran, Glowking, opposing AV Magearna, and Toxapex to allow in wallbreakers such as Nidoking, and the latter allows for it to cripple special walls like Blissey or Heatran.

While fairly straight forward in function, it is extremely potent due to Magearna's movepool, stat spread, and typing. It finds many wallbreaking opportunities thanks to its great defensive typing and bulk, and in tandem with its ungodly movepool, it can forcibly seize a lot of matchups, even those that it should lose in theory. This set faces a somewhat similar issue to its Dual Dance set in that it has the ability to adapt to sour matchups with its movepool, and for the matchups it wins, it wins with clear, polarizing dominance.

3: Assault Vest

I've seen a few AV variants, and thanks to its access to Volt Switch and its relevant defensive typing that can check most Special Attackers in the tier (barring Heatran and Nidoking), it can be annoying for some teams to deal with. I don't find it as polarizing as its other two sets, but it does perform as a pretty decent defensive glue for teams that have a suboptimal matchup against Pokemon like Latios, opposing Magearna, and Fairy-types in general, especially as the threat of its other variants can provide good momentum opportunities with Volt Switch, and because its Fleur Cannons still hurt like hell.

4: Utility/Sandbox variants

These sets are usually much more of wildcards and are much more inconsistent, but the threat of its other variants gives Magearna users a lot of room to toy around with its movepool and wide range of utility. It has options like Heal Bell, Pain Split, and Thunder Wave to make use of that can be particularly helpful, and especially since it also naturally boasts momentum, Soul Heart, a Steel/Fairy typing, and a great stat spread, it's really easy to mix and match as a whole with Magearna and find success with any feasible combination of moves or items. I tend to call these Magearna variants Sandbox sets, since they usually widely vary in nearly every department and enable experimental play, which inherently makes Magearna even more difficult to prep for in a vacuum since all of these options can be really powerful for teams in need of such things as a cleric or paralysis spread.

---

With all of these put on the table, what do I think of Magearna as a whole? I personally think it is definitely the best Pokemon in the tier, even moreso than Pheromosa, since it can find its way onto nearly any archetype or team with nearly every factor stacked in its favor. It can snowball, it can provide utility, it has an incredible typing, it has an incredibly effective stat spread, its movepool and coverage are wild and extremely difficult to scout for consistently, and most prominently it can adapt to literally any matchup it pleases.

Though, unlike Urshifu, Spectrier, or Pheromosa, I think it actually does contribute to the tier's ecosystem due to its insane versatility, myriad of set options, and general adaptability for teams in need of a stronger backbone or more firepower. I think it is broken, personally, since it is super hard to prepare for and because of its Dual Dance set, but I think it does bring something to the tier and is much more of a difficult case to effectively evaluate the health of in comparison to the more overtly broken Pokemon. I'm curious to hear what you all feel about it, and whether or not you all think it's worth keeping around. Thanks for reading!

 

[Gennie]

Yo! WIP OU Kartana Set.
Name: Attacking Lead
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword/Swords Dance/Giga Impact
- Knock Off/Swords Dance/Giga Impact


Set Notes:

Kartana is a very strong, and fast pokemon, with a decently versatile physical move-pool. However, with the move Swords Dance and no sash, any attempt to use it will cause Kartana to be destroyed due to its extreme lack of special bulk. While both the Choice Band and Choice Scarf are options as well, the Band still leaves it vulnerable to anything that can outspeed it and the Scarf leaves it vulnerable to any Pokemon that can take one of its hits. Also, both of these items limit Kartana's range of versatility. The Focus Sash gives an added layer of reliability, as with this item, it still outspeeds most pokemon in the metagame, and also strongly retaliates at any pokemon that attempts to one-shot it. It also allows it to ensure it won't get one-shot while it Swords Dances (if chosen). It's greatest ally is Rillaboom, which allows Kartana to heal after using its sash or after getting hit by a hazard, and also powers Kartana's Leaf Blade, which is also powered by Kartana's stunning attack stat and Grass-type STAB. Using this, it's able to defeat, if not, gain a very large edge on some of the current leaders of the format, such as Spectrier, and ultimately makes this a very respectable and deadly pokemon of the format.

Btw, please tell me if you decide to use this set. I want to hear your experience with it!

 

[CoolMan6001]

However, with the move Swords Dance,

Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off

So uhh where is Swords Dance?

 

[Gennie]

So uhh where is Swords Dance?

Read the whole thing please.
"However, with the move Swords Dance, any attempt to use it will cause Kartana to be destroyed due to its extreme lack of special bulk. "

 

[Katy]

About

is a really interesting and controversial Pokemon at the same time. I can see why it is that controversial in the eyes of many because its sets are undeniably very unpredictable. But mor to that later, for now I want to take a short view on Magearna:

Magearna is a very good Pokemon in the OU Metagame with an exceptional good typing and moreover bulk, this Fairy-type sets itself apart from pretty much any other Fairy-type we have in the OU metagame currently. Not only has it an impressive typing and bulk to work with, it also got granted with a great offensive stat being 130 spatt, and even its speed-tier isn't that bad with 65 base, means it can outspeed a lot of Pokemon after an use of only 1 Shift Gear, even some scarfers fall under that point of getting outsped by a Shift Gear-boosted Magearna, as Shift Gear grants it a +2 in its Speed.

There are various Sets, which it can run, alone on Hyper Offensive-teams it can run a various amount of different sets:

Hyper Offense Magearna Set Choices

Magearna @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

Magearna @ Weakness Policy / @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Aura Sphere / Draining Kiss

Magearna @ Leftovers / @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt / Electro Ball
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind

As you can see, it can run a good amount of Sets. And it doesn't stop there with Magearna. Magearna can also pack other sets, such as Choice Specs, which is immediately threatening, as it can build up a very dangerous VoltTurn-Core with Teampartners such as:

1. Landorus-Therian
2. Pheromosa
3. Tornadus-Therian
4. Tapu Koko
5. Rillaboom
6. and Urshifu (Single-Strike)

The Choice Specs-Set itself is hard to switch into, as its powerful STAB- and Coverage-Attacks can catch a plenty amount of Pokemon, it can also use Trick to lock other Pokemon into a Choice Specs, which dont want to have it at all, such as Blissey and Swampert, as Blissey is forced into one move, which it really despises and Swampert cannot use its utility any longer.

The Specs-Set

Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon / Focus Blast
- Trick

Other honorable mentions are: Trick Room Magearna and Aassault Vest, which I see less problematic as the aforementioned Sets in an overall view, as for the former Trick Room isn't that great in the current metagame and Assault Vest is by far its worst Set currently.

For the counterplay!

There are plenty of Pokemon, which can serve as a check or counter to Magearna, but it is really Set-Depentand, let's start off with the different amount of Pokemon, which are able to Check Magearna:

1. Heatran
2. Ferrothorn
3. Excadrill
4. Toxapex
5. Amoonguss
6. Celesteela
7. Volcarona
8. Landorus-Therian
9. Blissey

These are by far the best options against Magearna, but it is all very Set-Depentand as which Pokemon can check which Magearna-Sets, so checking doesn't go without scouting the Set first.

I view Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill as the ebst checks, but they all have to fear Fighting-type coverage coming from Magearna aimed at them, Heatran and Ferrothorn, alongside Excadrill with Celesteela can check its Iron Defense + Calm Mind-Set the best as they are resisting both of Magearnas moves in Draining Kiss and Stored Power. Magearna can also get shut down by Heatran which carry Taunt, so Magearna can't set-up further and Heatran pretty much serves as a hard stop to this set, unless it carries a strong Fighting-type move instead.
Volcarona can setup alongside Magearna, but it has to be wary about already boosted Magearna - but in overall it can do a decent job in scaring Magearna out with a strong Fire-type move and its access to Quiver Dance. Landorus-Therian can check the Choice Specs variants decently as it can switch into a Volt Switch blocking its path, making it, that the Magearna-user loses also momentum. However, Landorus-Therian nor Excadrill want to get Tricked a Specs. The same mention goes to Blissey, but Blissey has a better time against Magearna as it has necessary longevity with Soft Boiled.

The issue with Magearna isn't the lack of counterplay in my opinion, the issue is, that there is no real counterplay to ALL of its sets, and Hyper Offensive alone can carry a lot of variations of different Sets, currently the Weakness Policy-Set found it's place on these archetypes and behind Screens / Veil and Shift Gear + Weakness Policy it really isn't an easy task to revengekill.

So i can see why Magearna is very controversial overall and I can see why people are discussing it a lot more recently, and I think the discussion will hold on on this Pokemon in the near future.

Thanks for reading everyone and have a great day!​

 

[Vatn]

Yo! WIP OU Kartana Set.
Name: Physical Sweeper
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off

Not really sold on Sash Kartana. What exactly is it supposed to do compared to SD, Band, and Scarf Kartana? The loss in power is pretty noticeable VS SD and Band, and Scarf Kartana's still better at revenge killing thanks to the higher spd, allowing it to outspeed mons like Spectrier. You say specifically that it can beat Spectrier, but I don't think that's the case. Ignoring the fact that Kartana would lose the Sash to Stealth Rock/Spikes, Kartana would still have no way of getting past a potential Substitute. In addition to hazards just removing Focus Sash, there's also Ferrothorn and a plethora of Rocky Helmet mons to consider. If the player really needed a mon that can revenge kill sufficiently, something like Banded Rillaboom, Scarf Dragapult, or even things like Ditto and Sash Alakazam would work better. I'm just not sure what this set is supposed to accomplish in an average match.

 

[musiquepkmn]

Not really sold on Sash Kartana. What exactly is it supposed to do compared to SD, Band, and Scarf Kartana? The loss in power is pretty noticeable VS SD and Band, and Scarf Kartana's still better at revenge killing thanks to the higher spd, allowing it to outspeed mons like Spectrier. You say specifically that it can beat Spectrier, but I don't think that's the case. Ignoring the fact that Kartana would lose the Sash to Stealth Rock/Spikes, Kartana would still have no way of getting past a potential Substitute. In addition to hazards just removing Focus Sash, there's also Ferrothorn and a plethora of Rocky Helmet mons to consider. If the player really needed a mon that can revenge kill sufficiently, something like Banded Rillaboom, Scarf Dragapult, or even things like Ditto and Sash Alakazam would work better. I'm just not sure what this set is supposed to accomplish in an average match.

Not to mention Spectrier can just switch out into a Moltres or Zapdos or something. Usually there would be a threat of SD -> Giga Impact KOing whatever comes in, but in this case it doesn't even have SD to actually pose a threat other than knocking something off, which is useful but can be done better by other stronger/bulkier mons.

 

[Gennie]

Kartana would lose the Sash to Stealth Rock/Spikes, Kartana would still have no way of getting past a potential Substitute

Hmmm....perhaps it would function better as an Attacking Lead than a Physical Sweeper? Anyways, I have indeed accomplished sweeps with this set.

Usually there would be a threat of SD -> Giga Impact KOing whatever comes in, but in this case it doesn't even have SD to actually pose a threat other than knocking something off, which is useful but can be done better by other stronger/bulkier mons.

Too be fair, Kartana just gets one-shot if it tries to SD. And if not being able to defeat Spectrier is the issue, what exactly does Giga Impact accomplish. Not to mention, after using Giga Impact, wasting a turn to recharge with Kartana's terrible SpDef is fatal. Also, "stronger/bulkier mons" don't get Beast Boost. Blacephalon is better as a SpAtker, Guzzlord has terrible bulk, and Nihilego can't survive a single EQ. I suppose Moxie Scrafty could work, but I've never seen a single Scrafty run in OU, besides, Scrafty doesn't get nearly as much Speed or Attack as Kartana.

Ausma edit: Combined your two posts; be sure to avoid double posting for the future!

 

[ScarfchomperL100]

Too be fair, Kartana just gets one-shot if it tries to SD. And if not being able to defeat Spectrier is the issue, what exactly does Giga Impact accomplish. Not to mention, after using Giga Impact, wasting a turn to recharge with Kartana's terrible SpDef is fatal. Also, "stronger/bulkier mons" don't get Beast Boost. Blacephalon is better as a SpAtker, Guzzlord has terrible bulk, and Nihilego can't survive a single EQ. I suppose Moxie Scrafty could work, but I've never seen a single Scrafty run in OU.

Kartana might get one shot by most decently strong special attacks, but it can easily use Swords Dance on physically oriented Pokemon such as Swampert, Ferrothorn, and Rillaboom locked into a Grass move, as well as more passive Pokemon like Clefable and Toxapex. Giga Impact of course doesn't impact Spectrier but it is able to blow away would be answers to SD Kartana such as Zapdos and Moltres, and while the forced recharge sucks these being gone can be of great use to a partner like Rillaboom or the soon-to-be-likely-banned Pheromosa, the former of which is an excellent partner for Kartana since it gives it stronger Leaf Blades.

EDIT: Also, if the enemy happens to lack the means to KO Kartana during the recharge, it can very well continue to put in work with one of it's main checks gone.

 

[AM]

I am still convinced Giga Impact Kartana is a meme that is trying to be sold as some fire move on it when its like using Head Smash Aegislash to hit Moltres. Like a good haha moment to be trolly. You make a team that folds to Kartana probably better to just dump it cause its probably trashy against a lot of other things. Grass Terrain plus Kart probably has some minor merit but imagine having to put more work to cover Cinderace yuck.

As far as Magearna goes its defensive utility would be nice for the tier if the offensive sets werent so overpowering in their own ways. It should definitely go but that’ll take time.

 

[JinLong88]

I've made some fairly large edits to the Kartana set. Please tell me if these are satisfactory.

There's a saying that often the best defense is a great offense.

Replacing life orb with sash takes away it's offensive capabilities and giga impact shouldn't be slashed on a non-LO set.
The point of LO Giga Impact, is not to sweep, but to create a hole in the opponent's team.
Like use it after using +2 Knock Off first against a mon like Leftovers Buzzwole.
Yeah Kart will die to 2 Drain Punches, but at the end the amount of damage done to Wole leaves it in range of Kart's teammates such as Band Urshifu-Dark.

Why spend all battle playing around, trying to avoid Kart's sash being broken early? (like Aurora Veil Hail breaks its sash too)
And then you're doing way less damage in general than if you had Life Orb?

It's better to actually have the power to take out one of their fatter mons and leave their team with one less mon in middle of game, than wait for late game to maybe survive a hit from a faster threat ... but their fat is still alive to wall the rest of your team.

EDIT: In addition, Sash is better on something that can lead & provide support for its team, such as Sash Lando + Stealth Rock + Explosion (which could also be your RegiEleki answer), or even Sash Hatterene to set Trick Room and Bounce back hazards and Misty Explosion, or even the meme tailwind team with Sash Tailwind Mew which is better than Sash Tailwind Kart since Kart can't explode to prevent your opponent from wasting turns.