Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Piplz]

We will not be freeing Arceus-Bug, nor any other form of Arceus or unreleased Pokemon.

This is a discussion of the SS OU metagame, not National Dex Anything Goes or Ubers. Let's keep this in mind, thanks.

While I agree that these kind of talks are asisine and (borderline) trolling, I think a reality of the tier that can't be ignored is that the line between OU and Ubers gets more and more blurry with each passing gen, and thus people wanting to free X or Y mon that they believe doesn't deserve to be in ubers will only get more and more common. The power creep is real, and if not between genearations, then simply comparing the start of this generation to the current metagame is like night and day. People finding niches for shitmons like spdef flareon or w/e felt pretty cool, i can't really see that happening anymore. I kinda wish OU had kept a similar power level to the one we had in the initial metagame pre-DLC1. I remember when Conk was one of the hardest things to switch into and a small minority even wondered if it should be suspected, now that thing is in RU what the fuck.

I really wonder if people really enjoy having OU be full of "minor" legendaries instead of the tier being mostly top tier mons with a few acceptable legends mixed in. Personally I find the current meta quite degenerate and full of mons I consider horribly busted on every end of the spectrum, especially when I compare it to my memories of old gens with things like gengar, infernape, scizor, etc considered top tier mons, but it could be that I'm just nostalgic of the past and in the minority.

It doesn't mean the tier is unfun or unbalanced or anything, but when I look at the mons I'm building and playing with, it just doesn't feel like what OU should be at all. For me, at least. And when I look at it that way, I can understand where these Arceus-Bug trollish talks are coming from.

 

[MrHands]

The thing about Zamazenta-C is that due to it's high speed (and thus attacking first) it will almost always take a hit with lowered defenses if it uses CC or in Wild Charge´s case (because of the HP decrease). It will not love taking Rocky Helmet chip on top of the recoil damage either I can tell you that. I'd rather use the immediate power of something like CB Urshifu than take time to boost with Howl with all the Haze, Thunder Wave, Will O Wisp, Flame Body and Static running around the tier. This thing is just not as good as you make it out to be. It also lacks recovery outside of Rest and doesn't even get Toxic so there's no way something like Lugia is preferable to this who has a better boosting move in Calm Mind and way better defenses due to Multiscale.

Lol Zama isn't a wall breaker. Comparing it to Urshifu is like saying Toxapex and Keldeo are comparable because they both use Scald.

Also Zama doesn't take Rocky Helm chip and fight with lowered defenses, it clicks Howl 2-3 times in front of almost every OU Pokémon because it's bulkier than Regirock in a sandstorm then sweeps because this shit is clearly busted to anyone with the most basic amount of common sense.

While I agree that these kind of talks are asisine and (borderline) trolling, I think a reality of the tier that can't be ignored is that the line between OU and Ubers gets more and more blurry with each passing gen, and thus people wanting to free X or Y mon that they believe doesn't deserve to be in ubers will only get more and more common. The power creep is real, and if not between genearations, then simply comparing the start of this generation to the current metagame is like night and day. People finding niches for shitmons like spdef flareon or w/e felt pretty cool, i can't really see that happening anymore. I kinda wish OU had kept a similar power level to the one we had in the initial metagame pre-DLC1. I remember when Conk was one of the hardest things to switch into and a small minority even wondered if it should be suspected, now that thing is in RU what the fuck.

I really wonder if people really enjoy having OU be full of "minor" legendaries instead of the tier being mostly top tier mons with a few acceptable legends mixed in. Personally I find the current meta quite degenerate and full of mons I consider horribly busted on every end of the spectrum, especially when I compare it to my memories of old gens with things like gengar, infernape, scizor, etc considered top tier mons, but it could be that I'm just nostalgic of the past and in the minority.

It doesn't mean the tier is unfun or unbalanced or anything, but when I look at the mons I'm building and playing with, it just doesn't feel like what OU should be at all. For me, at least. And when I look at it that way, I can understand where these Arceus-Bug trollish talks are coming from.

Arceus was snapped by Dexit. Finch isn't fighting the concept of un-banning Ubers, he's just saying Smogon can't release the Pokémon Gamefreak was too lazy to include in a 90 dollar game with GameCube-level production quality.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Zamazenta-C has 800+ effective base stat total, STAB CC and Behemoth Bash, excellent coverage moves, and less than optimal but still potent setup in Howl. Unlike a lot of Ubers such as Rayquaza it doesn't waste some of the bst on mixed offenses, this shield dog has 80 base sp attack rofl, it's min-maxed as can be.

Oh wow who would have thought the shield Pokémon isn't amazing at shield breaking. Instead Garchomp Earthquake 3HKOs you while you eat almost literally any weaker hit. This dumb ass dog eats offense and despite claims otherwise Howl + 3 attack breaks walls just fine.

Please unban this for a week just so the community can live in a world where Moltres / Quagsire is mandatory and where offense gets cock blocked by a dog with better physical bulk than Regirock and enough special bulk to eat a Heatran's Magma Storm with plenty of HP to spare. Oh and that's just looking at it as a single Pokemon. How well can you handle this mon if your Slowbro eats a Toxic or if Dog has Wish support?

It can't hold an item but lol it doesn't even need one. I'd rather see Giratina, Lugia, or lol Arceus Ice in OU than this broken ass dog.

I can't for the life of me understand why people want it unbanned. The tier still has overcentralizing threats like Pheromosa. Depending who you ask Spectrier, Melmetal, Magearna, or Urshifu could be problematic as well. This is just the tip of the iceberg honestly. This massive push seems just to be from people upset it's garbage in Ubers. What makes no sense to me is why this particular mon is being considered so heavily. I've seen posts describing its speed as "just OK". We saw how the pre-DLC 1 metagame was such hot garbage because it was all bulky balance teams used to combat specific wallbreakers in the tier. Continuing to jack up the power level in OU just makes the metagame matchup reliant and therefore really fucking bad. This is the problem that was brought up at the end of SM OU. I think the council is aware of this issue but people seem to forget that at the highest level of play many outcomes were predetermined at team preview. There's a reason the power decreep (with a few atrocious exceptions) once G Darm and dynamax were banned was welcomed by most players.

 

[Finchinator]

While I agree that these kind of talks are asisine and (borderline) trolling, I think a reality of the tier that can't be ignored is that the line between OU and Ubers gets more and more blurry with each passing gen, and thus people wanting to free X or Y mon that they believe doesn't deserve to be in ubers will only get more and more common.

I see no issue with this. OU functions as its own entity that disregards whatever form Ubers may be taking. If people want to propose things be dropped down, it will solely be because of their potential impact on the SS OU metagame. I see no issues with these proposals happening and I am glad we are discussing things like the Zamazentas.

The power creep is real, and if not between genearations, then simply comparing the start of this generation to the current metagame is like night and day. People finding niches for shitmons like spdef flareon or w/e felt pretty cool, i can't really see that happening anymore. I kinda wish OU had kept a similar power level to the one we had in the initial metagame pre-DLC1. I remember when Conk was one of the hardest things to switch into and a small minority even wondered if it should be suspected, now that thing is in RU what the fuck.

So you want...more SDef Flareon like niche Pokemon? We've seen Glastrier and Regidrago surge on Trick Room, Meteor Beam Nihilego make some surprise ladder appearances, Obstagoon and Porygon-Z see sporadic usage to function as offensive Spectrier answers, and, perhaps most importantly, Swampert and Buzzwole become legitimately good Pokemon in the tier when neither stood a chance at being OU last generation, especially Swampert.

Maybe these Pokemon do not take as much digging to get to as a clear-cut PU Pokemon like Flareon took, but Flareon only popped up during Dynamax metagame when LO Clefable was absurd and Rotom-H was on every team, making people scrape the bottom of the barrel for alternatives. The search for specific niches was only prompted by a subpar metagame state rather than competitive balance prompting creativity to gain a leg up on competition, which is what we are seeing with the Pokemon I mentioned in last paragraph in this metagame.

I fail to see the issue with our current situation or the power creep's impact on the shaping of the metagame.

I really wonder if people really enjoy having OU be full of "minor" legendaries instead of the tier being mostly top tier mons with a few acceptable legends mixed in. Personally I find the current meta quite degenerate and full of mons I consider horribly busted on every end of the spectrum, especially when I compare it to my memories of old gens with things like gengar, infernape, scizor, etc considered top tier mons, but it could be that I'm just nostalgic of the past and in the minority.

At this point, I have lost you. With all due respect, what you personally prefer in terms of "quality" of the Pokemon in the metagame is not something we can take into consideration when forming our tiers. The games are released without our approval, bans are largely decided by the community, and new Pokemon and strategies are constantly being introduced to us by our amazing playerbase. I guess I'm sorry (???) that we are no longer in generation 4 where Gengar, Infernap, Scizor, etc. are the top dogs, but a distate for legendaries roaming free is basically only an issue if you are someone who dwells in the 1100s of the ladder trying to use your in-game team.

Your analysis of the metagame is also something I disagree with wholeheartedly. Given recent quickbans, you cannot possibly find the metagame to be "degenerate" or full of Pokemon you consider "horribly busted". In the current metagame, there are at most a handful of potential suspects or bans now that we have had our first few waves. A vast majority of Pokemon have sufficient counterplay and while we are not in a perfect metagame state and the tier is still continuing to settle, a lot more people enjoy this metagame and see promise in the direction it is heading than not, which recent survey results can absolutely attest to.

It doesn't mean the tier is unfun or unbalanced or anything, but when I look at the mons I'm building and playing with, it just doesn't feel like what OU should be at all. For me, at least. And when I look at it that way, I can understand where these Arceus-Bug trollish talks are coming from.

Perhaps you should reconsider your "feel" before trying to propose a longstanding, fundamentally identical metagame do so to achieve norms of the past. None of this normalizes or rationalizes proposals like Arceus-Bug.

 

[Kyo]

While I agree that these kind of talks are asisine and (borderline) trolling, I think a reality of the tier that can't be ignored is that the line between OU and Ubers gets more and more blurry with each passing gen, and thus people wanting to free X or Y mon that they believe doesn't deserve to be in ubers will only get more and more common. The power creep is real, and if not between genearations, then simply comparing the start of this generation to the current metagame is like night and day. People finding niches for shitmons like spdef flareon or w/e felt pretty cool, i can't really see that happening anymore. I kinda wish OU had kept a similar power level to the one we had in the initial metagame pre-DLC1. I remember when Conk was one of the hardest things to switch into and a small minority even wondered if it should be suspected, now that thing is in RU what the fuck.

I really wonder if people really enjoy having OU be full of "minor" legendaries instead of the tier being mostly top tier mons with a few acceptable legends mixed in. Personally I find the current meta quite degenerate and full of mons I consider horribly busted on every end of the spectrum, especially when I compare it to my memories of old gens with things like gengar, infernape, scizor, etc considered top tier mons, but it could be that I'm just nostalgic of the past and in the minority.

It doesn't mean the tier is unfun or unbalanced or anything, but when I look at the mons I'm building and playing with, it just doesn't feel like what OU should be at all. For me, at least. And when I look at it that way, I can understand where these Arceus-Bug trollish talks are coming from.

I definitely agree with what you have to say about the OU/Ubers tiering issue which I only see as getting worse within the next gen or two. I mean even just looking at how many mons were in BL prior to the DLC drop you have to wonder if there is going to be a new tier created at some point (either between UU and OU or between OU and Ubers) or if some other re-tiering action can be taken. I'm honestly not sure what the best solution is but it feels like something will have to be done eventually. On the other hand, you mentioned conk being incredibly powerful in early gen 8 OU, which it was, but can you really expect it to maintain the same relevance when you dump 100+ new mons into the game via DLC? It's going to cause a huge meta shift leading to Conk's niche just not existing anymore and that's probably more attributable to the meta becoming faster paced and less centered around wishclef fat teams than anything to do with powercreep. Also, I would say there's nothing wrong with OU being full of legendaries. Ultimately, this title doesn't mean anything at all. Any given mon being a "legendary" or a "starter" has no direct impact on how viable it is or how enjoyable it is to play in the OU tier. Maybe this is just me but I thoroughly enjoyed (post-zygarde) gen 7 OU and that was a tier where you could frequently see 4 or 5 legends on a single team (if you count tapus and UBs). It didn't stop me from having fun and there were still a lot of non-legendary mons to pick from in the tier and in UUBL downwards that had a well-defined niche in the meta.

 

[MidnightReaper]

Arceus Bug isn't even comparable to the Zamazenta-C for one simple reason. At the current moment, Arceus is not PROGRAMMED into Sword and Shield. The staff isn't going to add something to the OU metagame that isn't even in the current base game, to begin with. Zamazenta-C is perfectly reasonable to discuss for this reason; it is in Sword and Shield, and a good number of people (myself included) think that its specific traits are worth suspect testing in OU.

When Arceus gets programmed into Sword and Shield, bring up Bugceus testing then, otherwise it's pretty counterproductive and frankly theorymon without any purpose.

 

[Finchinator]

When Arceus gets programmed into Sword and Shield, bring up Bugceus testing then

No, please don't.

But yes, as discussed above, we cannot free Pokemon that are not in the game. Be it Arceus or Darkrai, they are not on the table until their eventual release.

 

[Ast0rga]

Teambuilding for this meta is kinda nuts. You gotta be ready for
Spectrier's ghostly moves
Regieleki's volt switches (no immunity means the thing can dance around your team, give it a couple teleport partners and hazard control)
Pheromosa's kicks
Zapdos-G in case you want to Defog and oops Defiant
Swords Dance Speed Boost Blaziken
Lando T being Lando T
Magearna and her versability that can sweep or just be solid
Urshifu still says hi
Melmetal used Double Iron Bash
Garchomp used Swords Dance, Garchomp used Scale Shot
Rain Teams
Rabbit and gorilla reminding you galar starters are the sh*t
and some more tapus, pseudos, ubs, that somehow are around Rank 80-90 usage in the stats page

yet

people are still peaking, keeping solid, consistent records
my friend just reached 1800

so stay calm and keep at it, this thing, this abomination is still very playable.

 

[Monky25]

Is it just me or does anyone else feel annoyed with all the talks of creating a tier between OU and Ubers. If it’s just a little mini unofficial tier, that’s fine, but otherwise it just causes a major imbalance with all the metagames. The defensive mons of each tier will just rise up, with OU becoming a new UU, UU becoming a new RU, and so forth. While the weaker legendaries can be used, this throws so many Pokémon into different BL tiers due to being too strong for the remaining defensive mons. It just doesn’t seem workable in my eyes and it would lead to unecessary complications that would take ages to fix and even then it might not still be fine.

 

[Spyro]

Lol Zama isn't a wall breaker. Comparing it to Urshifu is like saying Toxapex and Keldeo are comparable because they both use Scald.

Also Zama doesn't take Rocky Helm chip and fight with lowered defenses, it clicks Howl 2-3 times in front of almost every OU Pokémon because it's bulkier than Regirock in a sandstorm then sweeps because this shit is clearly busted to anyone with the most basic amount of common sense.

Howl sucks ass though since you take a hit setting up and another if you go for it again which just sucks, sure this might sweep a game late game but using 2 Howls and taking 2 hits is just the same as a frailer mon using Swords Dance and taking 1 hit and I don't see anything broken about that. Fighting/Steel is also easily walled. And I know from experience that spamming boosting moves to try and sweep a team just doesn't work that well in practice otherwise Dual Screens + Swords Dance anything would've been banned already. Spam Howl I don't care, you will still lose to Landorus-T. Against Dual Screens HO you simply cannot keep up with the onslaught of powerful moves thrown at you. Against balance you get hazed by Toxapex. Zapdos walls you, Moltres can potentially burn you. Against Trick Room you get walled by Marowak A. Sticky Webs HO shouldn't have too much of a problem with it either. I fail to see the brokeness of this Pokemon and this isn't because I love stall or anything. HO is my favorite playstyle.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Is it just me or does anyone else feel annoyed with all the talks of creating a tier between OU and Ubers. If it’s just a little mini unofficial tier, that’s fine, but otherwise it just causes a major imbalance with all the metagames. The defensive mons of each tier will just rise up, with OU becoming a new UU, UU becoming a new RU, and so forth. While the weaker legendaries can be used, this throws so many Pokémon into different BL tiers due to being too strong for the remaining defensive mons. It just doesn’t seem workable in my eyes and it would lead to unecessary complications that would take ages to fix and even then it might not still be fine.

No one who is a serious person would discuss this idea seriously. If there is a need for a new tier, it'd be placed at the bottom, below PU (i.e., ZU if it ever becomes official).

 

[Ast0rga]

I don't have the smallest idea how and why things work like they work for deciding that tiers have to be 4.52%, but why not make it a lower %? What would be the cons and pros on that. Wait this is probably not the forum section to ask this. Oh well delete if needed.

 

[Jordy]

I don't have the smallest idea how and why things work like they work for deciding that tiers have to be 4.52%, but why not make it a lower %? What would be the cons and pros on that. Wait this is probably not the forum section to ask this. Oh well delete if needed.

Highering the usage % needed was announced in this thread. This was announced far before we had any idea of DLCs. There is really no need to lower the threshold again in my opinion. We saw lots of bottom tier Pokemon get stuck in tiers last generation because our threshold was previously too low. We hardly see those issues anymore with the current threshold, which is only a good thing in my opnion.

In the future, please ask these questions in the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread.

 

[Ast0rga]

Highering the usage % needed was announced in this thread. This was announced far before we had any idea of DLCs. There is really no need to lower the threshold again in my opinion. We saw lots of bottom tier Pokemon get stuck in tiers last generation because our threshold was previously too low. We hardly see those issues anymore with the current threshold, which is only a good thing in my opnion.

In the future, please ask these questions in the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread.

Thanks this was very informative. No idea about the "T" formula.

Well honestly I agree with you if you think that's for the best, and at least personally I don't find any issue in having stuff like Thundurus-Therian UU, Volcarona RU and Keldeo NU (just a wild example, I don't know their exact tiers tbh).
Heck, it's kinda funny in a way...

 

[Piplz]

I see no issue with this. OU functions as its own entity that disregards whatever form Ubers may be taking. If people want to propose things be dropped down, it will solely be because of their potential impact on the SS OU metagame. I see no issues with these proposals happening and I am glad we are discussing things like the Zamazentas.

Then I misunderstood you :o apologies!

The rest of the post I don't necessarily disagree with, and I'll merely reply to the one or two parts where I think are you misunderstanding me. I agree that creativity and so on still exists! I'm not judging the metagame being fun or competitive or whatever - in fact, I'm not even discussing anything pertaining to the mons themselves. I'm judging the overall feel of the tier (which is obviously totally personal and subjective) and why, as a player who enjoys competitive mons in general, has enjoyed it for years, has enjoyed the earlier parts of SS OU, I feel a bit disheartened by the current OU tier and end up playing other tiers or not at all instead. I think that kind of feedback is just as valuable as discussing the meta game itself but maybe I'm wrong. Is it not?

I guess I'm sorry (???) that we are no longer in generation 4 where Gengar, Infernap, Scizor, etc. are the top dogs, but a distate for legendaries roaming free is basically only an issue if you are someone who dwells in the 1100s of the ladder trying to use your in-game team.

Your analysis of the metagame is also something I disagree with wholeheartedly. Given recent quickbans, you cannot possibly find the metagame to be "degenerate" or full of Pokemon you consider "horribly busted". In the current metagame, there are at most a handful of potential suspects or bans now that we have had our first few waves. A vast majority of Pokemon have sufficient counterplay and while we are not in a perfect metagame state and the tier is still continuing to settle, a lot more people enjoy this metagame and see promise in the direction it is heading than not, which recent survey results can absolutely attest to.

Oh, I think it is certainly going in the right direction, and I'm not disputing that - what I meant by degenerate, etc is that in my opinion, this is one of those oh-so-dreaded "broken checks broken" cases, except in my opinion, there's more broken stuff than not (even after the QBs), and the whole meta only ends up working and having counterplay etc by virtue of that. Of course, there's no mathematical formula to determine if something is too oppressive or not (or we wouldn't even have suspects/etc), it's all based on feel, and I even said in my post I might very well be in the minority here. I'm just conveying my own personal opinion about it. If I am in the minority then so be it :o

And no, this doesn't come from a 1100 ladder player. Don't get me wrong, I am by no means a strong OU player, my peak was merely in the 1900s and my account is currentiy hovering somewhere around 1500-1600 or something last time I checked, which is nothing impressive at all. But I'm not exactly a casual trying to play with my HGSS cartridge team either. I'm not too sure why this stance that only the worst trash tier players care about flavor exists, it's just untrue.

I'm merely sharing that personally I don't enjoy the flavor of the tier, and you're absolutely right, I miss how it felt like in gen 4! I thought the power level back then was more sane, and I wish OU power level stayed a bit more similar across generations. That's all :) and yes I am very aware that train is long gone and I'm many years too late to be concerned with that.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

The good news is that now that zygarde and kyurem black are banned, corviknight can skyrocket in viability again. Boy that's gonna suck for its competition in mandibuzz now that zygarde is gone. And if zamazenta drops, corviknight can just wall the living crap out of it, which mandibuzz will not be able to do.

But if both zamazentas drop, let's take kommo-o into consideration, since kommo-o can tank anything it has to throw at it by running something like drain punch + Clangorous Soul with leftovers, as clangorous soul makes kommo-o's already sky high physical defense even higher, and drain punch would keep kommo-o from ever being worn down by zamazenta even with play rough, which a lot of zamazenta will opt for ice fang or psychic fangs instead for coverage moves instead of play rough. Zamazenta-C gets bodied by that kommo-o set, and if uncrowned zamazenta comes or its running play rough just hit it with dragon tail to force it out.

 

[I like pink mons]

The good news is that now that zygarde and kyurem black are banned, corviknight can skyrocket in viability again. Boy that's gonna suck for its competition in mandibuzz now that zygarde is gone. And if zamazenta drops, corviknight can just wall the living crap out of it, which mandibuzz will not be able to do.

I believe Mandibuzz still has a good niche in this metagame because it checks Spectrier and Kartana.

And can we talk about Kartana ? This thing is an absolute monster against bulkier teams:


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 208 HP / 104 Def Moltres: 344-406 (92.2 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 302-355 (78.6 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 246-290 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 132-156 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 335-398 (85 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 481-567 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Your best shots to check it defensively are:
don't miss Focus Blast, however
still takes a ton from Smart Strike / Knock Off
and might be the only real checks
this pokemon should drop because of Zygarde and Kyurem-B bans anyway. And Kartana can still lure it with Aerial Ace
so in theory it is not even a reliable answer:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 536-634 (128.2 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not gonna lie, those calcs are ridiculous.

 

[Red Raven]

I'm not surprised. Kartana does have a higher attack stat than freaking Mega Rayquaza. I think Tornadus heat wave would be really good by switching in on the swords dance. It's still fragile af and it won't get any boosts to its speed if its life orb so I don't think it should be too much of a problem

 

[musiquepkmn]

this pokemon should drop because of Zygarde and Kyurem-B bans anyway.

I don't think that Buzzwole will cease to be viable now that Zygarde and Kyu-B are gone. Its ability to completely block non-acrobatics Urshifu is invaluable. It covers Urshifu while also covering the tier's grass and ground types that Corviknight/Mandibuzz are also supposed to check. The ability to run Rocky Helmet to also cover Melmetal is very good too.

 

[shadowpea]

Ok, I like pink mons beated me to Kartana, so I'm gonna talk about Dragonite.

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Extreme Speed / Fire Punch / Roost
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
​

Now that Zygarde and Black Kyurem has cleared out of the tier, Dragonite lost its two best competitiors and can come forward as a great Dragon Dance (go away, Kommo-O). Dragonite's best quality is Multiscale, which halves all damage it takes (besides Mold Breaker) at full HP. This allows it to setup much more easily than other Pokemon despite its medicore bulk. Boots is the obvious item for Dragonite to hold, not allowing hazards to weaken Multiscale. However, I have found Weakness Policy quite useful if you manage to keep rocks at bay (and I'm quite good at that if I would say so myself, having played with Volcarona for almost my entire stay in SM OU). Another gift this generation gave Dragonite is Dual Wingbeat, finally giving it reliable physical Flying STAB. Dual Wingbeat can also break subs, which is nice. For the last two moveslots... well, go on the smogon dex and look at it yourself. It's enormous. The moves I have found most useful are the ones listed above, however. Earthquake allows Dragonite to destroy most Steel-types, most notably Heatran, as well as motherfreaking Toxapex. Fire Punch, on the other hand, destroys Steel-types Earthquake can't kill, such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn. Extreme Speed is priority and allows Dragonite to become a revenge killer, and can pick off faster threats after a Dragon Dance, most of which are Choice Scarfed Pokemon. Finally, Roost allows you to heal and get Multiscale back up, but Dragonite definately will miss the coverage. There are also other moves Dragonite can use (as I said, its movepool is enormous). It has Stone Edge, Thunder and Ice Punch, Superpower, Dragon Claw/Outrage for Dragon STAB, and Aqua Tail, among others. And I can only wish it have a good special attack - its special movepool is just as good as, if not better than, its physical movepool.

Yeah, it's fairly obvious how this set plays out - Dragon Dance and sweep. With Multiscale, not much can knock out Dragonite before Dragonite sets up a Dragon Dance, and often after a Dragon Dance it's all over. Dragonite also has the luxury of picking what can check or counter with its ungodly movepool. And a bunch of people forgets that Dragonite still has base 134 Atk, and it is still a very meaty attack stat. This is partially what makes Weakness Policy so deadly - at +3 attack, Dragonite can easily blow through everything it sees. Of course, Weakness Policy is ruined if rocks are up, which is why Heavy-Duty Boots are so good on Dragonite.

For teammates, Dragonite appreciates teammates taking down bulkier Pokemon that Dragonite can't break through like Zapdos and Mandibuzz. If running Weakness Policy, hazard removal is absolutely mandatory. Also, even though Dragonite's attack stat is meaty, it isn't meaty enough to take on the most buff threats in the tier. As such, wallbreakers are appreciated. Teammates that appreciates Dragonite cleaning or revenging will appreciate Dragonite. I have found Dragonite to be effective with a secondary sweeper/cleaner like Volcarona or Choice Scarf Kartana, as one can weaken the opposing team for another to sweep. For example, Volcarona can weaken Toxapex with Psychic for Dragonite to kill it in one shot.

As always, I've probably missed something. Feel free to point it out!

 

[TenFiveTwoTwo]

I've recently been using Keldeo as a pivot and I'm quite impressed with how well it performs. I use the following set:

Keldeo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Toxic / Icy Wind
- Flip Turn

This set is really good at generating momentum. It messes with a lot of common defensive mons like Heatran, TTar, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Lando-T, Moltres, Hippodown, Buzzwole (Surf 2HKOS), Swampert (kinda). Destorying Blissey is especially good since quite a few teams rely on it to check special attackers, and surf is really spammable . Toxic is great for hitting mons that don't mind taking a hit from it, like SpDef Mandibuzz, Zapdos, AV Torn, Dragonite although Icy Wind is useful for hitting Grass and Dragon Types, and the speed drops can be really useful.
This set is also excellent because it baits in bulky waters like Toxapex, Fini and Slowbro, as they are they are generally the few mons that don't mind switching into it, on which it can Flip Turn to bring in mons to exploit them. Keldeo's speed tier is decent, outspeeding mons like Garchomp, Urshifu, Zapdos-G, non-sand excadrill, Nidoking.
Sadly it does fall short of mons like Kartana, Latios, Kartana, Tapu Koko and Cinderace, but it still great when it comes in on slower offensive mons or the aforementioned defensive ones. Its bulk is also surprisngly decent, as it capable of taking a few neutral hits, and being a one-time Wicked Blow switch in. Together with boots, it has great staying power throughout matches. Choice variants may be an option, but ignoring rocks/spikes and not having to predict is really what makes this set shine
I enjoy pairing it with specs Koko due to how it baits bulky water types in and they can form a Flip-Switch core, but it is generally really good at bringing offensive mons in due to how much it threatens. Spectrier is another excellent partner as Keldeo easily gets rid of Blissey and TTar, along with the fact that it spreads status for it's hexes
It isn't the best mon around, but I think it has a niche and nearly always puts in work in matches, so I'd highly recommend it

 

[SeveroM]

I want to talk about this abomination and his spot on rain


Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat/Psychic Fangs

Before start, I want to say this creature is ugly, one of the worst conceptions that the creativity of the human mind can get, however what this nightmare fuel have of ugliness, it have in utility, its bestiality is the closest you can get to , both in horrendous appearance and raw power, except it doesnt 2HKO and have zero bulk, but it has speed, and how it has speed! I've been using rain teams since DLC 1, and normal were a big problem agaisnt rain, Rilla was in every fucking team, but guess what? After DLC2 they droped out in usage, and we get new tools agaisnt rilla, named ,, and , and boom! this shit became real good! Nothing that isnt (i dont even see this spaghetti anymore), , or Pex survives two banded Liquidation under rain, this includes , , , , , , , , . It OHKO after rocks, and OHKO most of the offensive shit that plagues dlc 2, and even outspeed them! , and are pussies in speed compared to this speed demon under rain, AND YOU DON'T EVEN NEED JOLLY. Run this thing adamant, give it a band, give liquidation, give flip turn, and see the most cowadly mon hard to switch into, even if you switch on the walls you can pivot with this thing to some counter. Also did I said how pivoting is ridiculous in rain? You can run easily an effective 6-volt-turn team, pivoting in , , , , etc. The battle becomes a volleyball match were every mons just bounces around chipping oponent and doing insane 50/50 situations to your oponent, Its a really, really fun kind of team to use, because pivoting is fun! Also, Rilla Swords dance is still a great counter to Rain, I myself use rilla on my rain teams and never lose to any of them. It's still really hard to pass 1900, because everything is so broken offensively that hardly you can do mistakes, and oh my zap/moltres abilities are a pain, I just can't pass 1900 without get a burn against a 1600 player and dropping again, sad life.

​

Some calcs and why you cant usually safely switch into in barraska. Also remeber that barraska can instead do a really hard flip AND switch into the counter:
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Rain: 179-211 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal in Rain: 241-285 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana in Rain: 131-155 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Rain: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[musiquepkmn]

I've recently been using Keldeo as a pivot and I'm quite impressed with how well it performs. I use the following set:

Keldeo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Toxic / Icy Wind
- Flip Turn

This set is really good at generating momentum. It messes with a lot of common defensive mons like Heatran, TTar, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Lando-T, Moltres, Hippodown, Buzzwole (Surf 2HKOS), Swampert (kinda). Destorying Blissey is especially good since quite a few teams rely on it to check special attackers, and surf is really spammable . Toxic is great for hitting mons that don't mind taking a hit from it, although Icy Wind is useful for hitting Grass and Dragon Types, and the speed drops can be really useful.
This set is also excellent because it baits in bulky waters like Toxapex, Fini and Slowbro, as they are they are generally the few mons that don't mind switching into it, on which it can Flip Turn to bring in mons to exploit them. Keldeo's speed tier is decent, outspeeding mons like Garchomp, Urshifu, Zapdos-G, non-sand excadrill, Nidoking.
Sadly it does fall short of mons like Kartana, Latios, Kartana, Tapu Koko and Cinderace, but it still great when it comes in on slower offensive mons or the aforementioned defensive ones. Its bulk is also surprisngly decent, as it capable of taking a few neutral hits, and being a one-time Wicked Blow switch in. Together with boots, it has great staying power throughout matches. Choice variants may be an option, but ignoring rocks/spikes and not having to predict is really what makes this set shine
I enjoy pairing it with specs Koko due to how it baits bulky water types in and they can form a Flip-Switch core, but it is generally really good at bringing offensive mons in due to how much it threatens.
It isn't the best mon around, but I think it has a niche and nearly always puts in work in matches, so I'd highly recommend it

Yes! Keldeo has always been underrated in the OU tier this gen, not because of its breaking power, but because of its great tendency to lure in Toxapex, Slowbro, and now Fini too. Flip Turn gave it a way of abusing this tendency. Although Specs Koko does synergize well, I think I will try this mon with Taunt-Roost Koko, as together they form a speedy, specially-based Volt-Turn core where both of the members do not care about Blissey, which is often relied on to tank special attackers like Koko.

 

[glava222]

Ok, I like pink mons beated me to Kartana, so I'm gonna talk about Dragonite.

View attachment 292650

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Extreme Speed / Fire Punch / Roost
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
​

Now that Zygarde and Black Kyurem has cleared out of the tier, Dragonite lost its two best competitiors and can come forward as a great Dragon Dance (go away, Kommo-O). Dragonite's best quality is Multiscale, which halves all damage it takes (besides Mold Breaker) at full HP. This allows it to setup much more easily than other Pokemon despite its medicore bulk. Boots is the obvious item for Dragonite to hold, not allowing hazards to weaken Multiscale. However, I have found Weakness Policy quite useful if you manage to keep rocks at bay (and I'm quite good at that if I would say so myself, having played with Volcarona for almost my entire stay in SM OU). Another gift this generation gave Dragonite is Dual Wingbeat, finally giving it reliable physical Flying STAB. Dual Wingbeat can also break subs, which is nice. For the last two moveslots... well, go on the smogon dex and look at it yourself. It's enormous. The moves I have found most useful are the ones listed above, however. Earthquake allows Dragonite to destroy most Steel-types, most notably Heatran, as well as motherfreaking Toxapex. Fire Punch, on the other hand, destroys Steel-types Earthquake can't kill, such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn. Extreme Speed is priority and allows Dragonite to become a revenge killer, and can pick off faster threats after a Dragon Dance, most of which are Choice Scarfed Pokemon. Finally, Roost allows you to heal and get Multiscale back up, but Dragonite definately will miss the coverage. There are also other moves Dragonite can use (as I said, its movepool is enormous). It has Stone Edge, Thunder and Ice Punch, Superpower, Dragon Claw/Outrage for Dragon STAB, and Aqua Tail, among others. And I can only wish it have a good special attack - its special movepool is just as good as, if not better than, its physical movepool.

Yeah, it's fairly obvious how this set plays out - Dragon Dance and sweep. With Multiscale, not much can knock out Dragonite before Dragonite sets up a Dragon Dance, and often after a Dragon Dance it's all over. Dragonite also has the luxury of picking what can check or counter with its ungodly movepool. And a bunch of people forgets that Dragonite still has base 134 Atk, and it is still a very meaty attack stat. This is partially what makes Weakness Policy so deadly - at +3 attack, Dragonite can easily blow through everything it sees. Of course, Weakness Policy is ruined if rocks are up, which is why Heavy-Duty Boots are so good on Dragonite.

For teammates, Dragonite appreciates teammates taking down bulkier Pokemon that Dragonite can't break through like Zapdos and Mandibuzz. If running Weakness Policy, hazard removal is absolutely mandatory. Also, even though Dragonite's attack stat is meaty, it isn't meaty enough to take on the most buff threats in the tier. As such, wallbreakers are appreciated. Teammates that appreciates Dragonite cleaning or revenging will appreciate Dragonite. I have found Dragonite to be effective with a secondary sweeper/cleaner like Volcarona or Choice Scarf Kartana, as one can weaken the opposing team for another to sweep. For example, Volcarona can weaken Toxapex with Psychic for Dragonite to kill it in one shot.

As always, I've probably missed something. Feel free to point it out!

i would just like to add that dragonite also has a lot of defensive utility; it's immune to ground, quad resist grass, and resists fighting, fire and water attacks. Multiscale also allows it to easily tank pretty much any neutral or 2x super effective move once (and even some weaker ice moves).

The set i'm currently using on a stall team:

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

This set uses extreme speed to revenge kill frail setup sweepers that would otherwise threaten the more passive members of my team, since extreme speed does enough damage to KO a lot of frailer pokemon with very small amounts of chip damage, and multiscale allows it to tank some very strong hits, so it can soak a hit from a glass cannon mon and probably kill it in retaliation. Since there are no boosting moves on this set, i run adamant to reduce the amount of chip it takes for espeed to KO, and max hp evs to ensure best mixed bulk.

This set can also infinitely switch on magma storm taunt heatran that can abuse my more passive mons, and then either KO it with earthquake, or reset its multiscale with roost, depending on whether I read the heatran will stay in or switch. Resetting multiscale with roost in general is very nice when you can get away with it, as it lets you tank much mor during the course of a game.

As was said this thing has awesome coverage combined with a meaty attack stat, and can often surprise enemies who don't guess what coverage is packing. It actually surprised me how often, with a little chip situations arose where dragonite for example espeed kills an enemy pheromosa, then they send out a steel type which dies to earthquake, and they try to send in something like lando-t that folds to ice punch, and I have seen this set straight sweep like 5 pokemon on a decently chipped team. Also this combination of moves enables to, with some prediction, even break through zapdos; you can chunk it with ice punch, predict a roost with earthquake which brings it into eSpeed range if it was not in very good health after the roost (of course this works much better if the opponent doesn't know what exact moves you are running).

What I've found that dragonite struggles against anything that can preemptively break it's multiscale, like knock off it's boots or weathers that deal damage, but the worst things are poison and burn, especially burn as it massively reduces both it's damage and survivability. Because of that, pokemon which can heal bell are really good partners. This specific set also like to have a partner that can deal with spectrier, as it can't be revenge killed by eSpeed.

tldr; dnite nice, can take hits well and give out hits, also this is my first post, so sorry if i wrote a bunch of bogus.

 

[G-Luke]

With the removal of some of Toxapex's greatest threats, I personally feel as though it has grown too large for its britches. There are other offensive threats that do deal super effective damage, but they haven't the offensive stats of Zygarde and Kyurem Black to really threaten it.
Furthermore, Regenerator provides sustainable healing so long as you have another pokemon to switch to, making any pokemon incapable of dealing reliable 33%+ damage a non-threat, until you factor in the fact that its main set uses recover, healing it even further. Toxic and scald, depending on what you are facing, provide chip damage to whatever opponent you face, and Haze neutralizes any attempts to set up. Lest you forgo Toxic for Knock Off, you now have a way of preventing banded/spec'd pokemon from keeping that monumental 1.5x boost, and deny other pokemon Leftovers or Black Sludge. The latter of those you yourself use to keep the health high in the sky.
It is also a major defensive check/counter to a wide swathe of the meta, such as Urshifu-S and Volcarona, prominent offense-oriented pokemon, as well as most physical pokemon without a SE move, which is rare due to the only weaknesses of Toxapex being Electric and Psychic.
Granted, it does have counterplay in Tapu Koko and Regieleki, but simply having a ground type on your team to support Toxapex, which kazam1228 notes as,

makes those top Electric threats almost a non-issue.
Psychic types like Latias and Alakazam present little issue, because switching to a special wall like Chansey or Clefable act as checks sufficient enough to enable high-end switching, and recover all the damage dealt because of Regenerator, or even have the opponent make a slip, exposing them further.
There is little counterplay that cannot be negated, and because of its defensive nature Toxapex avoids the standard model for banning, which, while admittedly may be misremembered, goes along the lines of "broken offense is more noticeable and apparent". It is my personal belief that banning Toxapex will allow for a better metagame.

Sorry, I forgot to post this right away, but I feel the need to address this.

Tapu Koko and Regieleki are not the only answers to Toxapex, and in fact are some of the worst option available. Counterplay for Toxapex has never been better, so if you are seriously finding yourself lacking any means of handling it here are some cool tips.


Heatran @ Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Flash Fire
Modest Nature
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Toxic / Protect / Stealth Rock

Trapper Heatran basically puts your opponent in a very tight bind. Here you have a very powerful Fire type who can put a huge chunk into your team, and you have a perfectly healthy Pex in the back. Your thought is to switch in and eat the hit, right? Well the moment you switch in and get hit by Magma Storm, that's a dead Toxapex, as you get trapped, and get Earth Powered to death. Otherwise your opponent gotta content with trying to eat a Magma Storm, and there is little else can handle doing all a that while being run alongside Toxapex.


Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness

Or

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Draining Kiss
- Surf

Tapu Fini screws around with Toxapex fairly well, and basically turns non Toxic Spikes variants into complete fodder. Utility sets stop Toxapex from doing its most important role in forcing progress while walling the opponent, by preventing Status, while chunking its HP with Nature's Madness. Calm Mind sets take this one step further, and turn Toxapex into setup fodder, allowing it to clean up games once played right.


Latios @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire / Aura Sphere
- Trick / Recover

Latios is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers in the tier following the departure of Kyube and Zggy, and its not hard to see why. Its Draco Meteors even sting resiats, and having a powerful Psyshock that blows back "special walls" with ease. I am genuinely shocked that you would confidently claim that Latios is of little issue, as none of the Pokémon (including Toxapex) you mentioned can switch in on Psyshock. Worse than that, Specs has the additional tool of Trick, which turns Toxapex and the aforementioned Blissey into deadweight, and makes Clefable much easier to play around.

+ Future Sight
Urshifu @ Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Unseen Fist
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Poison Jab / Sucker Punch / Iron Head

This is a tried and true method of shitting in balance cores, and as my comrade Jordy said a few pages before, this playstyle has 100% not lost its efficiency. Its pretty simple. Set Future Sight, get in Urshifu, and click the appropriate STAB and watch as something dies. If Toxaoex is your prominent Fighting resist, as it usually is, you usually either sack Toxapex, or sack a team mate to bring it in later, only for Urshifu to repeat that cycle a few turns later.


All of the threats I have mentioned are great Pokemon and would do exactly what I described regardless of whether or not Toxapex is in the game, so you don't gimp yourself by using these mons. I haven't even brought up several more niche (albeit more unreliable) ways of handling Toxapex, such as Tapu Lele, Calm Mind + Thunderbolt Clef, SubWisp Spectrier, Hydreigon and Nidoking, which are not top tier atm or are more prone to losing, but they still get the job done.

Toxapex is a fantastic Pokémon, helping us keep several threats at bay from destroying teams, but is by no means a broken threat in the Crown Tundra metagame. Quite honestly, if you are consistently losing to Toxapex in THIS metagame, maybe its not the problem here‍