Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3161)

Wow. I didn't expect it to be that swung on the Zama suspect. I expected it to be a lot closer, but, cannot fault on 70% ban rate. While I think it could have been OK, sometimes, it's bulk was just that too much to handle in the format.

Anyway, with that side project out of the way, back to normality. I wonder if any creative sets developed for the Zama metagame will remain?
 
Wow. I didn't expect it to be that swung on the Zama suspect. I expected it to be a lot closer, but, cannot fault on 70% ban rate. While I think it could have been OK, sometimes, it's bulk was just that too much to handle in the format.

Anyway, with that side project out of the way, back to normality. I wonder if any creative sets developed for the Zama metagame will remain?
I think the rise of Volcarona (and potentially Victini) might last, as Volc tends to be one of those mons that rises in usage and viability because teams are weak to it, and then drops as teams adapt, and then rinse-and-repeat for much of the metagame's lifespan. It's a meta-dependent mon that can be really scary or basically accounted for by standard teambuilding without specifically thinking about it, but HDB makes it less susceptible to meta fluctuations.
 
Not gonna lie, if we suspect zama-c again, how about we suspect it with other broken threats and see if some of them will cancel each other out. (Ace and magearna come to mind) I know this may be a really stupid idea, (with magearna especially) but possible dropping ace with zama if the council decides to retest may do the trick
Broken checking broken is a policy explicitly forbidden in the Smogon's framework. No.
 

TailGlowVM

The firelight of Manaphy
is a Pre-Contributor
Not gonna lie, if we suspect zama-c again, how about we suspect it with other broken threats and see if some of them will cancel each other out. (Ace and magearna come to mind) I know this may be a really stupid idea, (with magearna especially) but possible dropping ace with zama if the council decides to retest may do the trick
The problem is that if you have multiple broken Pokemon, then it could appear that other Pokemon look broken, because teams get forced into suboptimal structures with all the threats they have to cover. See National Dex OU, which last year banned Ash-Greninja, Urshifu-S, Tornadus-T, Galarian Darmanitan, and Mega Metagross all at once. They later found Ash-Gren was manageable on its own, as while there were checks to it, a lot of them, like Toxapex and Tapu Fini, were obliged to check some of the other now-banned Pokemon as well and could be overwhelmed if you stacked several of them together.
 

Finchinator

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While I personally wanted Zamazenta-Crowned to be OU, I was very happy with this suspect. We had greater forum activity in the thread and many more voters than any test that wasn’t about something monumental like Dynamax or something right after a game release when interest was near peak. It is great knowing we have so many people invested in the state of our metagame and I am glad that the majority opinion went through, even if it wasn’t the same as my personal stance.

We will likely see an uptick in Dark types (Weavile and Bisharp) once again and perhaps a bit less Volcarona and Zapdos, but the metagame will largely be the same as what we saw throughout March. I am curious to see what countermeasures pop up to help push the metagame even further in coming weeks. I also expect Buzzwole to see sustained usage moving forward despite Zamazenta-Crowned oftentimes prompting it to be used in recent weeks — it’s good regardless Imo.
 
On the subject of trapping, I want to talk about this mon:
View attachment 335495
While I believe Dugtrio to be broken due to a combination of factors (Arena Trap and the atk and spd to abuse Arena Trap), I really do not think that Diglett is broken, and that it should eventually be retested. Unlike Dugtrio, Diglett lacks the necessary stats to really abuse Arena Trap. 55 atk VS 100 atk is a large enough margin where Adamant DIglett fails to OHKO mons it would like to trap, and 95 spd VS 120 spd is also a fairly large gap, so much so that Diglett's relatively mediocre spd tier leaves it outsped by mons it would want to trap. Because of these stat deficits, DIglett is more dependent on Focus Sash to actually do its job of trapping, but even with the prominence of Heavy-Duty Boots, hazards are still everywhere, further reducing Diglett's trapping capabilities. It should be noted that moves such as U-Turn and Volt Switch are fairly common in the meta (Teleport. however, does not work against Arena Trap). This works both ways for Diglett, as on one hand mons that it would like to trap (e.g. Tapu Koko) can simply U-Turn out, but on the other hand Diglett is able to be pivoted in by these moves to trap a mon safely.

Looking at all the A tiered mons on the viability rankings thread, the only mons that Diglett can reliably trap are Heatran (needs to be pivoted in, as Magma Storm can blow through the sash), Magnezone, and Volcarona (assuming hazards are not set up, otherwise it just gets outsped by +1 Volcarona and dies). For what it is worth, Diglett cannot even beat Heatran and Magnezone if the ever-popular Rillaboom or the less-popular Tapu-Bulu has set up Grassy Surge. Unlike Dugtrio, which has the stats to function, Diglett would not be able to perform as a competent and reliable revenge-killer due to its mediocre spd tier as well as overall lack of power.

Overall, I disagree with the notion that Arena Trap as a whole is broken. Instead, I would argue that it is due to a combination of traits that makes Dugtrio overpowered for the OU tier, and because Diglett does not possess this same combination of traits, it would be far from overbearing in OU. The same argument could also be applied to Trapinch, though I am unfamiliar with its applications, so I will abstain from debating that myself. Essentially, while it is true that Diglett can prevent mons from switching out, the amount of mons that Diglett can actually reliably beat in the process is limited.

Here are calcs that prove the relevance of Diglett's stat deficiencies compared to Dugtrio.
252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
While both can trap Heatran in regular conditions, if Grassy Terrain is present, only Dugtrio can reliably beat Heatran.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 300-354 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 210-248 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While Diglett outspeeds Bisharp, Bisharp has Sucker Punch, so Diglett loses this matchup.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
With chip, Dugtrio can switch in and trap Slowking. Diglett cannot do the same.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 114-134 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dugtrio beats Toxapex, Diglett cannot. Plain and simple.

There are more instances of where the power difference is notable, specifically on how much easier and reliably Dugtrio can revenge kill mons than Diglett can.
Maybe someone has already said dis before. But imo why should we unban something if a LC mon can't use it effectly. For example in the RBY UU ban discussion if they should ban wrap, Sevi 7 made a good point on yeah Dratini would be fine with Wrap + Agility, but come on is a god damm dratini of course it would be fine, not to mention digglet & trapinch can trap a lot more things than you listed with certian items, and priority such as sucker punch.
 
While I'm a bit disappointed in the suspect outcome, I don't really mind either way because I never viewed it as a particularly impactful mon in practice (I still think it's objectively worse than Kyurem-B gens 5-7). I'm hoping we can have a sustained conversation on futureport/slowtwins/regenerator.

As an aside, run this Aegislash set - credit to beatiful


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 36 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Rash Nature
- Toxic
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Close Combat

nothing enjoys switching into this set and it's just obnoxious for common cores to play around. KS allows you to scout specs Dragapult which is nice. Seriously this set has done more consistent work for me game to game of anything that hasn't been suspected/banned this gen. On its own this Aegi does consistent work but paired with a cleric it really shines. Aegi is probably the most consistently underrated mon of the entire gen.
 
Now that the suspect is over I would like to make some comments on the latest discussions;

- This is bulk, fast and has a variety of sets to deal with your counters (remembering the Zygarde effect) with the exception of Heatran. However, you not only need to use Heatran, but also Leftovers, Taunt and refrain from exploring Flame Body. Debatable.

Magnet Pull - Although its reach is much less than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, I like the line of thought in which it is consistent to consider it as uncompetitive and deserving of a ban as AT / ST. The problem is that there is a lack of good Magnet Pull users. Magnezone has a respectable 130 SpA but lacks the flexibility needed to handle all Steel-types in the tier with the same set. Limited movepool and insufficient speed. I do not want to dwell here, it deserves a discussion on the merits or not of trapping one of the main types of metagame, but in the distant future.

/ Teleport - Teleport is a very debatable move in which we could discuss how healthy or brainless its use is for the tier, but an undeniable point is that we have great users of this move. Clefable doesn't care about status and hazards, just like Blissey (boots). But Slows have great bulk, Regenerator, in addition offensive pressure with Future Sight and even punish switchs with a possible Scald Burn. As a casual player, I don't want to point out whether the problem is if Teleport is broken/uncompetitive, or if Slows, bringing together all its qualities is what makes it unsustainable, but to suggest that the next step for a better metagame is to tinker with that hornet's nest, although I also know that we just came out of a suspect and maybe a few days to observe the metagame are necessary, although we did not have a change in the tier.
 

TailGlowVM

The firelight of Manaphy
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm not completely certain whether Zamazenta-C should be banned or not, but as it originally looked like Zama would clearly be unbanned I would like to thank anyone that followed my advice of waiting longer: I don't think two days is ever enough to determine a Pokemon's viability.

Anyway, Zamazenta has convinced me that Fighting-types as a whole have more potential than we previously believed in this metagame. Although most other options don't have Zama's amazing bulk, a lot of them do have the ability to overcome some blanket physical checks in this metagame or offer some unique utility. We all realised Urshifu-R was actually good a while ago, but I think the rising Buzzwole may actually be better off without Zamazenta, as Zama would be the offensive Rillaboom (and to an extent Kartana) answer some people have been demanding. There's also Keldeo, which is very good at forcing in Slowking or Toxapex and pivots out with Flip Turn to a teammate that takes advantage of them, and CM + Taunt also has use to set up on them as Slowking never uses an immediately damaging move besides Scald at the moment. I think Terrakion is an underrated Future Sight abuser, especially with Slowbro likely to fall off once more without Zamazenta in favour of Slowking. Hawlucha is the only viable Pokemon besides Zeraora and the weather sweepers that can outspeed the possibly-broken Dragapult. There are probably other options for Fighting-types with potential like Kommo-o too.
 
Holy shit. I did not expect the voting to be that one sided

Although on a personal note, I'm kinda glad it wasn't allowed. While I would have loved at how it would make Rillaboom's life somewhat miserable, this mon is actually very difficult to punish offensively. It's stupid ass bulk also makes it a bit of a challenge to kill even with super effective hits. This really made me appreciate tank Chomp a lot more than I usually do simply because of how much passive damage Zama gets punished with but whatever. That's water under the bridge, for me anyway

At any rate, I decided to read on the suspect of arena trap after I brought how magnet pull is uncompetitive. If anyone is too lazy to find it, here is the link. Now, I did say that magnet pull is uncompetitive because it prevents switching and I quote from that arena trap suspect 'Switching is viewed as a fundamental part of how we play competitive Pokemon'

With that in mind, that would mean that trapping abilities are uncompetitive because they prevent a fundamental part of how competitive pokemon is played, according to whoever wrote that thread, which I agree with entirely. So, why isn't magnet pull on the radar exactly? Is the sole argument for this really that it only traps one type and cannot do so reliably? Well, here's the thing. I'm talking about the ability, not the mon that gets it so again I'll take back what I said that Magnezone is uncompetitive. Magnezone is obviously the premier user of the ability but the inability to trap all steel types in the tier isn't magnet pull's fault but rather, Magnezone's

The main counter argument is that Magnezone is not broken cannot even trap all steel types but as I said, I take back that Magnezone is broken and focus entirely on magnet pull. Magnet pull allows you to trap all steel types but fortunately, or unfortunately, the recipient of the ability can't exactly use it to its fullest potential because well, Magnezone is slow as shit

So, I will ask this. Switching is considered to be a fundamental part of competitive pokemon. Arena trap is banned because it removes this fundamental part. Magnet pull prevents switching but only on a specific type which still has the same concept of preventing switching, the fundamental part arena trap was banned for. Is magnet pull really gonna get a pass just because one, the recipient of it cannot use it to its full extent due to its own inherent flaws and two, it only traps one single type?

I find that inconsistent as a whole. Trapping abilities are trapping abilities no matter how big or small, no matter if they affect everything or not. If one gets banned, then why not ban all of them? They all share the same concept which is an ability that prevents switching

Again, I am not directing this to Magnezone as a pokemon but rather, its ability so if anyone is gonna say 'oh but Magnezone is matchup fish or Magnezone dies to everything in ou' or anything about Magnezone's own flaws, don't even bother replying. I am talking about the ability and not the pokemon so discuss the ability and not its recipient. Whether Magnezone can trap all steels or not is irrelevant as I am talking about the concept of trapping abilities

Side note

Was shadow tag suspected? It was mentioned once in the arena trap suspect but I couldn't find a shadow tag suspect. Unless I'm blind, dynamax was the first suspect and arena trap the second, with Melmetal as the third
 

AM

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Throwing the blanket term of "trapping being uncompetitive" was a mistake on Smogon's end and a lot of players that pushed for those bans (probably myself included) when it was specific mons with specific traits that had a better argument for being broken than "uncompetitive". Dugtrio was broken, Gothitelle was broken and would still be in current OU. That term is thrown around too loosely for stuff that can be accounted for in the builder and a lot of that is Smogon tiering and mentality being blindly followed to blame. Magnezone is a response to fat Corviknight/Ferro shit that plagued the builder before, I mean Corvi still used with Mag around lol, and eventually is going to get worse when people realize Volcarona is very good and it starts getting spammed more. The reason why the whole trapping is uncompetitive argument is dumb is because you would look nuts putting in a magnemite on your team expecting it remove things at the level Magnezone can do. You have better arguments for trapping mons when you look at individual mons not all forms of trapping/trappers are effective, at that point you would be examining whether it's broken.

I think the whole switching is fundamental to the game thing is kind of silly too and that's another catch phrase people love using to support banning every trap mechanic but by this logic you would be banning moves like mean look, block, whirlpool, and a lot of other stuff that is niche and not even an issue in most cases.
 
Throwing the blanket term of "trapping being uncompetitive" was a mistake on Smogon's end and a lot of players that pushed for those bans (probably myself included) when it was specific mons with specific traits that had a better argument for being broken than "uncompetitive". Dugtrio was broken, Gothitelle was broken and would still be in current OU. That term is thrown around too loosely for stuff that can be accounted for in the builder and a lot of that is Smogon tiering and mentality being blindly followed to blame. Magnezone is a response to fat Corviknight/Ferro shit that plagued the builder before, I mean Corvi still used with Mag around lol, and eventually is going to get worse when people realize Volcarona is very good and it starts getting spammed more. The reason why the whole trapping is uncompetitive argument is dumb is because you would look nuts putting in a magnemite on your team expecting it remove things at the level Magnezone can do. You have better arguments for trapping mons when you look at individual mons not all forms of trapping/trappers are effective, at that point you would be examining whether it's broken.

I think the whole switching is fundamental to the game thing is kind of silly too and that's another catch phrase people love using to support banning every trap mechanic but by this logic you would be banning moves like mean look, block, whirlpool, and a lot of other stuff that is niche and not even an issue in most cases.
I agree with the trapping mindset setting discourse among players. Personally, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were broken because you had to play in a specific way and be mindful as to what you sack and anticipate your doubles (Goth/Shadow Tag was way worse due to the mindless PP stalling with Charm+ Fake Tears bs smh lol). With Duggy/Arena Trap, if you got your kill with a wincon, Duggy comes in and can just punish you right back. I remember there was a time where in SM OU, Diglett and Trapinch were putting in work cuz of Arena Trap, and that exposed how really good the ability was.

I think trapping is beneficial for easing teambuilding but it can be a double edge sword depending what is abusing what. Mons with great stats and mindless moves that associate with the ability is what magnifies such bans.
 
I don't know if its just me but it seems the main argument around banning magnet pull isn't how zone warps teambuilding or invalidates Pokemon, but that since we banned Arena Trap and Shadow tag we have to ban it, which in my opinion is a really bad way of going about this. Its like comparing apples to oranges- yeah they're both fruit/trapping abilities but outside of that they are vastly different in how they perform in game. Forget all that shit about "switching is fundamental", the reason those 2 were banned was because they put a heavily restriction on teambuilding and warped the meta around them due to their wide range of targets to trap and various utility options. They made it so the pokemon who got trapped by them were not used as much and even invalidated Pokemon like toxtricity in the case of dugtrio earlier in the gen. Don't even argue about it being solely duggy and gothitelle since shit like diglett (shown in the gen 7 test) and presumably gothorita and wobbufett were also unhealthy, so it made sense to get rid of the ability. When I look at removing zone, I fail to see how it makes the meta better. It doesn't warp teambuilding to where anything it traps is unviable, it doesn't trap shit and the stuff it DOES trap are still extremely good in the meta with 2 of them being A+ on the VR. I genuinely don't see how magnet pull/zone is banworthy without resorting to the bullshit "consistency" argument considering this situation is vastly different from the other 2. All in all, arena trap/shadow tag wasn't banned because it removed switching, but because many saw it as warping in the teambuilder and overall creating an unhealthy meta where you don't use anything trapped by them. Zone/magnet pull doesn't do that- it doesn't warp the builder, it doesn't overcentralize the meta, and it doesn't invalidate anything. Don't use the bans of arena trap/shadow tag to justify banning magnet pull when they are completely different scenarios.
 
Magnezone is a waste of a slot against any team that doesn't have the Pokemon it removes. At the same time, Magnet Pull means that it's is almost 100% effective at beating the Pokemon it's meant to. Winning the match becomes less about the individual skill of the players and more about the team composition/matchup.

Smogon has in the past done its best to reduce the "RPS-ness" of a meta. We don't want the winner or a loser of a match to be determined at Team Preview. Anything that removes switching as a mechanic increases it.
 
Magnezone is a waste of a slot against any team that doesn't have the Pokemon it removes. At the same time, Magnet Pull means that it's is almost 100% effective at beating the Pokemon it's meant to. Winning the match becomes less about the individual skill of the players and more about the team composition/matchup.

Smogon has in the past done its best to reduce the "RPS-ness" of a meta. We don't want the winner or a loser of a match to be determined at Team Preview. Anything that removes switching as a mechanic increases it.
I disagree on both of these counts. Magnezone sets can be optimized to ensure it's not deadweight against teams without its trap targets. Clefable, Toxapex, the Slow twins, etc., are easy targets. It also isn't as reliable a trapper as you state. Only Skarmory and Corviknight are reliably trapped and removed by both sets and even then both can threaten a Magnezone that hard switches in if it's not at high health with BP. It is still a competent, if underwhelming, choice outside of trapping, and games with trapping mind games are subject to player skill.
 
Magnezone is a waste of a slot against any team that doesn't have the Pokemon it removes. At the same time, Magnet Pull means that it's is almost 100% effective at beating the Pokemon it's meant to. Winning the match becomes less about the individual skill of the players and more about the team composition/matchup.

Smogon has in the past done its best to reduce the "RPS-ness" of a meta. We don't want the winner or a loser of a match to be determined at Team Preview. Anything that removes switching as a mechanic increases it.
This is false. There's a reason that the Specs set is still used and even considered good by many people despite the fact that, as shown many times in this thread, it's the worst set at trapping the many steel types in the tier: Specs Zone is the set with the most offensive presence, especially if you opt to use Analytic instead of Magnet Pull (underrated set btw).
 
I don't know if its just me but it seems the main argument around banning magnet pull isn't how zone warps teambuilding or invalidates Pokemon, but that since we banned Arena Trap and Shadow tag we have to ban it, which in my opinion is a really bad way of going about this. Its like comparing apples to oranges- yeah they're both fruit/trapping abilities but outside of that they are vastly different in how they perform in game. Forget all that shit about "switching is fundamental", the reason those 2 were banned was because they put a heavily restriction on teambuilding and warped the meta around them due to their wide range of targets to trap and various utility options. They made it so the pokemon who got trapped by them were not used as much and even invalidated Pokemon like toxtricity in the case of dugtrio earlier in the gen. Don't even argue about it being solely duggy and gothitelle since shit like diglett (shown in the gen 7 test) and presumably gothorita and wobbufett were also unhealthy, so it made sense to get rid of the ability. When I look at removing zone, I fail to see how it makes the meta better. It doesn't warp teambuilding to where anything it traps is unviable, it doesn't trap shit and the stuff it DOES trap are still extremely good in the meta with 2 of them being A+ on the VR. I genuinely don't see how magnet pull/zone is banworthy without resorting to the bullshit "consistency" argument considering this situation is vastly different from the other 2. All in all, arena trap/shadow tag wasn't banned because it removed switching, but because many saw it as warping in the teambuilder and overall creating an unhealthy meta where you don't use anything trapped by them. Zone/magnet pull doesn't do that- it doesn't warp the builder, it doesn't overcentralize the meta, and it doesn't invalidate anything. Don't use the bans of arena trap/shadow tag to justify banning magnet pull when they are completely different scenarios.
When building teams, neither Magnezone nor magnet pull warps the game, that much I can agree with but when the time comes where Magnezone faces off against a team that has its targets, it forces the target player to make risky moves on how they play their cards otherwise they just outright lose to Magnezone's teammates. In my experience with shadow tag and arena trap from the time I played in non smogon rules, both of them have the same effect, which is in battle, you have to make a lot of risky moves or you lose to their teammates. Magnet pull does the same as Ferrothorn and metal birds are huge defensive pillars that are capable of staving off a lot of the metagame or at the very least, give you breathing room to play against the offensive threats

In regards to magnet pull's victims being A+ on the vr, that is simply a testament to how good a pokemon is. Even if the face of their own natural predators, truly good pokemon will find a way to thrive. Another good example of this is how Rillaboom is a threat despite the fact that it lives in the same environment as Tornadus and Corviknight, two of its own natural predators. However, this does not change the fact that like with arena trap and shadow tag, you have to make extremely risky moves with your metal birds or you lose then and there to threats they're supposed to handle like Garchomp or Kartana and the aformentioned Rilla

Well, take that up with the council. They were the ones that said switching is a fundamental part and that is why they decided to suspect arena trap in the first place. I just made this case based on their own wordings

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't smogon's goal to create a metagame where skill is the main deciding factor of who wins a battle? If that is the case, I'll ask this, does winning by trapping a certain target and having your mons go brr a reflection of skill? As far as I can tell, this doesn't allow the opponent to make a counter play because they are prevented from making one in the first place due to trapping
 

IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't smogon's goal to create a metagame where skill is the main deciding factor of who wins a battle? If that is the case, I'll ask this, does winning by trapping a certain target and having your mons go brr a reflection of skill? As far as I can tell, this doesn't allow the opponent to make a counter play because they are prevented from making one in the first place due to trapping
By this logic, there wouldn't be winning and losing matchups, and hax as a whole should be banned. Mons is mons, the best player doesn't always win, it's a combination of being consistent in the builder, forming good gameplans and the absence of bad luck that makes someone great at this game.

To avoid a one liner, I think talk of Zone being broken is honestly dumb, but comparing it to the likes of Dugtrio and Gothitelle is beyond stupid. One can only trap steels, not even consistently at times, while the others can basically remove any mon and forces the opponent into awkward sequences to avoid having their mon revenge killed. AM was right with the point about blanket terms, go read the reasoning for the banning of Shadow Tag and Arena Trap before chucking those buzzwords around.
 
By this logic, there wouldn't be winning and losing matchups, and hax as a whole should be banned. Mons is mons, the best player doesn't always win, it's a combination of being consistent in the builder, forming good gameplans and the absence of bad luck that makes someone great at this game.

To avoid a one liner, I think talk of Zone being broken is honestly dumb, but comparing it to the likes of Dugtrio and Gothitelle is beyond stupid. One can only trap steels, not even consistently at times, while the others can basically remove any mon and forces the opponent into awkward sequences to avoid having their mon revenge killed. AM was right with the point about blanket terms, go read the reasoning for the banning of Shadow Tag and Arena Trap before chucking those buzzwords around.
I thought I specifically said that I take back everything about Magnezone being broken and only focus on the ability? More importantly, did you read the part where I said that magnet pull allows you to trap steel all types. That is a fact. Go look it up in bulbapedia if you disagree. I also mentioned that the inability to kill all steel types is not the fault of magnet pull but of Magnezone due to its own inherent flaws

Oh and I did read the arena trap. In case you misread, I quoted that 'Switching is viewed as a fundamental part of how we play competitive Pokemon'. Those are not my words but those of the council so if you don't agree with that, take it up with them. I made my case based on their own words

And would anyone explain to me what the hell is the logic of 'oh it only traps one type and the pokemon who gets it can't even kill everything it can trap so it's not ban or suspect worthy'? The ou council themselves said that switching is a fundamental part so I guess that just because the ability traps only one type it doesn't break that view? Am I really supposed to believe that? Dafuq is that logic

That's almost like you being allowed to have a gun in a town where owning any kind of guns is illegal just because the one you have is a pistol and not a rifle
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
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I don’t have further comment on the Magnet Pull/Magnezone topic beyond what I already offered currently, but I’ll try to circle back to it in the future whenever I do.

One Pokemon I find quite underrated right now is Dragon Dance :Dragonite:. The combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Multiscale is a godsend. Dragonite already has a very underrated defensive presence, naturally checking Volcarona, Heatran, and Rillaboom. This generation grants it an even better opportunity to check things and generate free turns, which is what makes Dragon Dance variants so scary.

Dual Wingbeat presents it with a highly coveted Flying STAB that is reliable, Roost allows it to heal off damage and restore Multiscale, and EQ is a coverage option whereas Heal Bell prevents status from derailing a sweep. With the right support and partners, DD Dragonite can and will thrive in this metagame I feel. Curious what others think!
 

Katy

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I don’t have further comment on the Magnet Pull/Magnezone topic beyond what I already offered currently, but I’ll try to circle back to it in the future whenever I do.

One Pokemon I find quite underrated right now is Dragon Dance :Dragonite:. The combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Multiscale is a godsend. Dragonite already has a very underrated defensive presence, naturally checking Volcarona, Heatran, and Rillaboom. This generation grants it an even better opportunity to check things and generate free turns, which is what makes Dragon Dance variants so scary.

Dual Wingbeat presents it with a highly coveted Flying STAB that is reliable, Roost allows it to heal off damage and restore Multiscale, and EQ is a coverage option whereas Heal Bell prevents status from derailing a sweep. With the right support and partners, DD Dragonite can and will thrive in this metagame I feel. Curious what others think!
I also think :Dragonite: is very underrated especially with the Dragon Dance set. It's an enormous lategame cleaner and sweeper and with the right support it gets itself going. I do feel great partners are specially defensive Clefable to cover Dragapult, Hydreigon and to a degree Kyurem, which are highly threatening to Dragonite, or even Slowking, to slowly pivot it on the field safely. Landorus-T can also help Dragonite to cover up the ever dangerous Garchomp and also strong attackers such as Melmetal. What I think makes a really good partner is Magnezone (not to surge back to the topic ofc) but it can trap and remove Skarmory and Corviknight which can be a pain for Dragonite itself to deal with, so it opens up the path for Dragonite.

With Rillaboom and Kartana thriving currently I think Dragonite and Volcarona forming a great partnership with enabling each other to break past these Pokemon and also to break through Pokemon such as Corviknight and Skarmory. Volcarona ahs trouble dealing with heatran, but that is something Dragonite covers up really well. They both compliment each other well and support their potential to burst through the opposition.

I think this set can also work on hyper offensive structures like dual screens with Pokemon like Tapu Koko or Grimmsnarl, as they help its sweeping potential with dual screens protecting Dragonite from too much damage it'll take and with Heavy-Duty Boots, Multiscale and dual screens, it has the opportunity to be a threatening lategame sweeper.

In overall, Dragonite with the right support and tools granted by great teammates is a Pokemon which can be highly threatening, once the opposing team is weakened, and I think it should always be considered in the teambuilding process as a Pokemon to prepare for.

In conclusion: I do feel Dragonite is a great Pokemon and it's worth to build with it, as it can help with plenty of powerful breakers and with the right support it has no trouble dealing with the opposing team.
 

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