Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3161)

If we're gonna talk about trapping we should talk about Heatran not Zone:blobthinking:
Oh trust me I was thinking of ranting about trapping moves after this whole magnet pull thing just for the sake of consistency. I do have my own misgivings about banning trapping moves because you have to actively trap your target instead of just switching in and trapping but since they have similar concept, I wouldn't mind discussing them since I did say trapping is trapping, regardless of form, size or shape. To be honest, I'm just curious where the council stands on this since they were the ones that said that switching is fundamental

If magnet pull and trapping moves get a pass, then the council should make a statement on that whole switching is fundamental thing that they themselves has said and yet, there are still stuff that prevents switching still allowed on the tier. At the very least the council should rephrase their statement because with the current logic of switching is fundamental, then all trapping moves and abilities should be banned no matter how miniscule they might be
 
Now that the suspect is over I would like to make some comments on the latest discussions;

- This is bulk, fast and has a variety of sets to deal with your counters (remembering the Zygarde effect) with the exception of Heatran. However, you not only need to use Heatran, but also Leftovers, Taunt and refrain from exploring Flame Body. Debatable.

Magnet Pull - Although its reach is much less than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, I like the line of thought in which it is consistent to consider it as uncompetitive and deserving of a ban as AT / ST. The problem is that there is a lack of good Magnet Pull users. Magnezone has a respectable 130 SpA but lacks the flexibility needed to handle all Steel-types in the tier with the same set. Limited movepool and insufficient speed. I do not want to dwell here, it deserves a discussion on the merits or not of trapping one of the main types of metagame, but in the distant future.

/ Teleport - Teleport is a very debatable move in which we could discuss how healthy or brainless its use is for the tier, but an undeniable point is that we have great users of this move. Clefable doesn't care about status and hazards, just like Blissey (boots). But Slows have great bulk, Regenerator, in addition offensive pressure with Future Sight and even punish switchs with a possible Scald Burn. As a casual player, I don't want to point out whether the problem is if Teleport is broken/uncompetitive, or if Slows, bringing together all its qualities is what makes it unsustainable, but to suggest that the next step for a better metagame is to tinker with that hornet's nest, although I also know that we just came out of a suspect and maybe a few days to observe the metagame are necessary, although we did not have a change in the tier.
What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
 
So now that the Zama stuff is out of the way, is it Cinderace retest time? Personally, while I'd love to see it back and have its day, there are 2 factors, which I think need tackling first: FuturePort/Kantonian Slow twins and Rillaboom. Both of these have broken aspects, and were 2 of the factors that were tipping Ace over the edge, and both have had major discussions on this thread. However, its been seen that, irregardless of Ace, they remained very potent, even to the point of being broken. I feel that they need addressing first before Cinderace should have its retest.

Kanto Slowtwins/Future Port/Regen

Future Port I feel is a very strong combination at the moment. When combined with a Pokemon that could break Dark types, its nasty. Hence the strength it saw with Urshifu-SS and Zamazenta-C. A 120 BP delayed Psychic move is really not nice to take, and most that can resist the Psychic attack get shredded by a strong breaker. Add Teleport giving you information about what to swap into due to negative priority, its a very scary thing. However, the 2 alone aren't bad, otherwise we would see the likes of beheeyem up in OU. Regenerator means that, on the switch, you get a free health recovery, which makes the slowtwins that much more effective at their job. Regen+Future Sight is fairly balanced, as you have to manually switch, meaning you need a near perfect switch, and a wrong one can lead to significant damage. Galar Slowking is fairly OK, and not broken by regen+Future Sight.

Regen on its own is annoying, as you lose a lot of progress that you make on a lot of defensive threats. Torn-t can recover rocks damage if it loses boots and pex is near immortal. However, you can generally wear down the team to the point they lose the regen Mon.

Overall, I'd say the broken elements are the trio together, and I'd be down for a ban on the slow twins. Future Port with regen kept being one of the catalysts for the banning of Urshifu SS, Cinderace and Zamazenta-C. And, the list only extends when people find new partners for it. Apart, each element is fine, but together, they are a very powerful combo. Teleport on its own is fine. It's just a slow pivot move with no damage. We have had slow pivots in the past and those were OK. And future sight just needs time after the ban to see how bad that affects the meta.

Rillaboom
I've actually put Rillaboom on both of the last surveys as one Mon I'd like seeing tested/banned. While I think rillaboom is cool and all, it's Grassy Glide is what tips the scales for me. Without grassy glide, it would be similar to Bulu: a strong offensive grass type that can set terrain and bolster its powerful grass offensive options. Grassy Glide takes it too far. Vs resisted fast offensive options, banded glide 2HKOes most dragapult and offensively oriented tornadus-t and can completely KO unresisted options. Banded Grassy Glide out powers banded Talonflame Brave Bird, which was a menace back in Gen 6. And remember, that's not even rillaboom's strongest option. Banded Wood Hammer can break most 2x threats that think they can easily switch in. For example, if rocks are down, and offensive torn has lost its boots, it's KOed after rocks by wood hammer. That's just the banded version. The SD variants, while not initially as strong, still pack a punch, and are even stronger when setup.

And the Zama test only strengthened my thoughts. It swapped from knock off to superpower as main coverage, and ended up taking out ferrothorns and even heatrans on a correctly called switch, which are usually some of the go to checks for it. You need a very defensive grass resist to even think about handling rillaboom. Hence the huge rise in Corv and Skarm, which are now the reason people bring up Magnezone and Magnet Pull, since Zone is a very good option at handling both of them, leaving teams in the open to Rilla sweeps.

Rillaboom is a really unhealthy presence in the metagame. It needs to go. It surpresses way too much, and is a meta warping force.
 
I actually think the meta is “balanced” rn, there’s not really one best play style or mon (though an argument can be made for futureport BO being the most consistent). I think there’s some real burnout playing knock off regenerator - the meta ™️ (Rip ZamaC). I have changed my mind and I’m officially neutral on the slotwins, I don’t care either way what happens. There’s a compelling argument that having a way to make progress against Pex, blobs and other status spreading stuff is a net positive. I love using Bro to get a clean seedless teleport from ferro into my fire type for example. On the other hand, a typical OU game feels like you click knock off and volt turn 10 times as your regenerator pivots and Landorus kinda just slap each other until you get your breaker in on a futureport.
 
What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
Generally, Smogon tries to go for simple bans rather than complex ones, and targets the root of the problem to the best of their ability. We could've banned certain mons from using Dynamax, but decided to just ban the mechanic as a whole as it's far too much to deal with under most circumstances. And new abusers would've risen up anyway. BW OU's ruleset is a mess, and we'd like to avoid a repeat of that as much as possible.
 
Generally, Smogon tries to go for simple bans rather than complex ones, and targets the root of the problem to the best of their ability. We could've banned certain mons from using Dynamax, but decided to just ban the mechanic as a whole as it's far too much to deal with under most circumstances. And new abusers would've risen up anyway. BW OU's ruleset is a mess, and we'd like to avoid a repeat of that as much as possible.
Which means either the slow twins and glowbro or teleport get suspected
 
Volcarona is really good right now between it's three sets (3 attacks, 2 attacks roost and safeguard) with only Heatran countering all of them. No Dugtrio and Golem-A means there's no way to trap Heatran unfortunately, right? No wrong! I've been using this Magnezone set which can trap tran easily if you switch in on toxic or SR or get it in via a double switch.

:ss/magnezone:

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpA / 56 SpD / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon

Set could be optimised further but the EVs allow zone to tank one earth power from Heatran and Kyurem after SR and obviously KOs back with Mirror coat. Mirror coat is very unexpected but cool tech. AV Magnezone can still trap the metal birds and serves as a decent one/two time switch in to Lele, Dragapult, Koko and some other special attackers. It can be used as a decent switch in for special attackers on more offensive teams. I used on a Volt turn team with Volc, Rillaboom and Kart and had good results. One replay I saved on the decently high ladder (1700s) where zone put in a ton of work: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1329911805

Edit: Thanks Drahe for help with the larger sprite
 
Last edited:
Some select council member quotes on trapping with me bolding things I think agree with my argument and ignoring stuff I don't like:psynervous:

Finch - Gen 8 Arena Trap
Arena Trap has been identified as a potentially banworthy ability in the SS OU metagame; trapping with Dugtrio has a large impact on gameplay in the current metagame. Switching is viewed as a fundamental part of how we play competitive Pokemon. Seeing as Arena Trap restricts the ability to switch for anything that is grounded, it should be no surprise that a capable abuser of this ability can be deemed a problem in the context of the metagame. Dugtrio has been one of the best Pokemon in the metagame in recent months; it is able to fit on to balance archetypes and help eliminate common Pokemon in order to help support teammates. This dynamic has been viewed as problematic historically, but we must examine Arena Trap specifically in the SS OU metagame to determine its banworthiness (or lack thereof).

...
While Dugtrio is the lone current abuser of this ability, Arena Trap is the subject of this suspect test. The OU Council decided on this focus because Arena Trap allows for the act of trapping to occur. We believe that this ability may not have a place in the SS OU metagame. We have reasonable cause to believe that Arena Trap could be deemed banworthy on any half-decent Pokemon that would receive it and have tiering precedent to back the decision to make the subject of the suspect test Arena Trap as opposed to Dugtiro. This allows for us to avoid having to address the issue again moving forward if it were to come to that.

ABR
Arena Trap simply allows Dugtrio to trap too much of the metagame. The trappable targets in OU are Bish, Cinderace, Clef, Exca, Jirachi, Keld, Kyurem, Terrak, Pex, Tar, and Zera. Some may say that shed shell can be used to bypass a trapping weakness, but the opportunity cost of using it is immense. For example, a shed shell Pex cannot reliably beat a cm flamethrower Clef and a shed shell Clef cannot reliably wall much of anything. Having so many pokemon vulnerable to trapping places an overly demanding strain on the metagame and I believe removing Arena Trap would create a lot more flexibility and freedom.

Eo UT Mortus
Much of the reasoning behind why we banned Dugtrio in previous gens remains relevant today. Dugtrio can trap and thereby invalidate a significant portion of the SS metagame's staples; this imposes a significant degree of risk management when choosing whether or not to build with them, or whether or not to use Shed Shell on a trappable Pokemon. Whereas counterplay to most Pokemon might usually consist of one or two Pokemon, amassing counterplay to Dugtrio involves building one's entire team to be resilient against it. This is too large an impact for a single Pokemon to have on building, especially when exercising precautions against Dugtrio tends to offer no benefit otherwise.

Finch again
Arena Trap on Dugtrio has been one of the most controversial topics in the SS OU metagame for a few months now. Handling the ability allows for us to tackle the root of the problem while also avoiding any potential repeat issues with other abusers in the future. We have precedent for this and it is also discussed at length in the OP, so I will just focus on Dugtrio. The Focus Sash set has recently become very problematic; it is able to take out a variety of prominent Pokemon while also taking out the normal suspects. The Choice Band set is also superb; it is able to trap many weakened Pokemon while also eliminating a number of walls that are necessary for balance teams in specific match-ups. The impact of Dugtrio's trapping is not to be understated in the current metagame. Many games are blown wide open if and when Dugtrio is able to be effective with Arena Trap. No other Pokemon in the tier have the same unforgiving impact on gameplay and I do not view this dynamic as a healthy one. Switching is a fundamental part of gameplay as we see it and eliminating that through a steady trapper of everything grounded such as Arena Trap Dugtrio is not something that belongs in our metagame. Much like previous generations, I believe that we should ban Arena Trap.

KratosMana
I personally thought Arena Trap should have been gone a while ago, however I also wanted to see how it would do with the new Pokémon Home metagame. But i believe it has become very clear over time that Arena Trap would have to bite the dust again. Thanks to last gen's Dugtrio Attack buff, it's able to net out a ton of very key damage benchmarks in this metagame, notably being able to 2KO most Clefable(one of the best Pokémon in the metagame) sets with Choice Band, for example. Both Choice Scarf and Focus Sash also make it for an excellent Revenge Killer against a ton of common offensive threats, such as Zeraora, Kyurem and Obstagoon(for Focus Sash), Excadrill, Cinderace and Terrakion, to name a few. Arena Trap in general just gives the metagame way more harm than good, creates looping scenarios where teams are unable to function properly because of it, and is way too pressuring to the metagame as a whole. There's too many cases where Pokémon are being forced to run ridiculous sets(see: Shed Shell Terrakion being actually somewhat common, being brought to an SPL game) for me to see it as a healthy part of our metagame.


Gen 7 Dugtrio Test -

Blunder
Dugtrio itself possesses one of the greatest aids to defensive teams: the ability to trap would be stallbreakers and threats to defensive cores. By utilizing it's recent attack buff along with the wide amount of Pokemon it is able to neutralize, Dugtrio has become a favorite pick among defensive builds. With the ability Arena Trap, Dugtrio gains the ability to consistently pressure the opponent through the threat of completely throwing the momentum of the game by eliminating a key counter, or breaker, that threatens the team otherwise.

Gen 6 Shadow Tag + Sablenite test
boudouche

Shadow Tag has been identified by both tournaments and ladder players as an issue. This ability denies the opposing side one of the key elements in Pokemon; switching. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Ghost types and opposing Shadow Tag Pokemon, but only four Pokemon are remotely viable in OU.

The most popular abuser of the ability is Gothitelle, which gets Trick, Rest, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave, and other viable moves. Gothitelle has the ability to give its item (typically a Choice Scarf) to a Pokemon that cannot kill it, forces it to lock itself into a move, and then proceed to a PP stall until the Pokemon dies by using Struggle. The only way a trap from Shadow Tag can be avoided is continuously double switching until the Shadow Tag user dies to hazards (that means hazards have to be on the Shadow Tag user's side of the field) or giving a Pokemon Shed Shell, which only has one very niche use.

We decided to not suspect Gothitelle because we think Shadow Tag is the main part of the problem. Gothorita has the same trapping abilities as its evolution, and thus could also become an issue should Gothitelle be banned. We also think Wobbuffet and Wynaut, despite being quite unseen and less effective than Gothitelle, are problematic, as they can punish the opponent by trapping a target and create a hole and punish the opponent with little to no counter play.

My point with all of this is that a lot of high level people have said that switching is fundamental. Now you might say, negativecharge, you have taken them out of context, they mean to say that it's only fundamental when the pool of targets is too large. Sure, I guess but there is clearly a straight line from the reasoning from these old suspects and banning Magnet Pull. A critical point that comes up over and over again is that trapping puts the trapping user in the driver seat by removing a key check/counter. All the people saying that switching isn't fundamental are going against many years of precedent. The current status quo is that Wynaut and Gothita are more problematic than Magnezone (are they? I don't know, they never saw play and weren't individually suspected) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Either switching is or isn't fundamental, but it seems to me it was until very recently...
 
Regarding the discourse about Magnet Pull.

Lately several people have been pointing out that because Shadow Tag and Arena Trap were banned because "switching is a fundamental part of the game, trapping is inherently uncompetitive and should be banned" then logically Magnet Pull should also be banned, and then several more people turn to them talk about how Magnezone isn't actually broken or problematic. The people in the latter group are completely missing the point of what the former group is saying. This isn't really about people wanting Magnet Pull to be banned. At least, that's not how I see it. This is about people noticing a hypocrisy and calling it out in order to better form a more consistent precedent for what is and isn't competitive.

To quote Colonel M in his thread on King's Rock:
Again, the problem isn't me playing Devil's Advocate to protect the items. I want them gone as much as everyone else in the thread. The problem is making sure the logical train is airtight to prevent a slippery slope. I'm sure even with arguments you could argue some slippery slopes, but it's also a start to addressing the problem and keeping it within tiering specifics that attempt to follow a logical flow without half-assing the argument as "I just don't like the item and it should go".
(emphasis mine)

Replace "banning King's Rock" with "banning Shadow Tag and Arena Trap" and it's basically the same argument.

Regardless of whether or not Magnet Pull is actually problematic and in need of a ban, stating "switching is a fundamental part of the game therefore trapping is inherently uncompetitive and should be banned" by its own definition would mean that Magnet Pull is inherently uncompetitive and should be banned, so to say that Magnet Pull isn't that is an inconsistency that needs addressing. The two options for doing so are 1) ban Magnet Pull (probably not happening) or 2) provide a more rigorous definition of what is and isn't competitive.
 
Last edited:
Idk what the council is thinking and their opinions on this issue is but I might as well justify a reasoning those 2 abilities were banned without resorting to the "switching is fundamental" argument. Both Dugtrio and gothitelle put an extreme strain on the builder, warping teams so Pokemon who didn't like getting trapped were seldom used and invalidated while also enabling too many Pokemon/archetypes. Arena trap helped make stall incredibly powerful by trapping and removing threats and as seen with the tour going on at the time (forgot the name) the top 15 pokemon most used Pokemon had like 4 of them weak to dugtrio, showing its strain on the builder where anything trapped by it wasn't worth using at the time. Like said before, with the previous generation tests we found that even shit like diglett and gothorita could get the job done, so it made sense to ban the ability rather than waste time on a case by case basis for every single Pokemon. Hope this gives an answer as to why you can justify a ban on arena trap and shadow tag as opposed to simply saying "it stops switching" because these abilities versus magnet pull and stuff like fire spin are not the same, otherwise they would have been dealt with long ago. Overall, disregard that whole switching argument as that wasn't the sole reason to ban those 2, both abilities and their abusers restricted the teambuilding and created an unhealthy, centralized environment. They enabled too many Pokemon and archetypes while also invalidating other Pokemon that were too negatively affected by it (toxtricity example). Those 2 abilities had a much wider range of targets as well, making them very different from zone and its very few targets that aren't invalidated by it. As myself and many others have stated before, magnet pull does not do any of this and doesn't need a ban. Once again, the sole basis behind the ban argument is solely the idea of consistency rather than genuine unhealthiness and negative impact, which is something I really disagree with. However, as seen by my explanation, there are other reasons you can justify banning arena trap and shadow tag without resorting to the switching is fundamental argument.
 
What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
Problem is with banning a combo of teleport + sight or any other of the twins moveset is they're not broken on any other mon with for example teleport + future sight, I dont see a point in banning this combo that isnt broken and why not just ban the twins, if you're removing teleport and future sight, which is basically 95% of why they're used, then might as well ban it instead.
 
Volcarona is really good right now between it's three sets (3 attacks, 2 attacks roost and safeguard) with only Heatran countering all of them. No Dugtrio and Golem-A means there's no way to trap Heatran unfortunately, right? No wrong! I've been using this Magnezone set which can trap tran easily if you switch in on toxic or SR or get it in via a double switch.

:ss/magnezone:

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpA / 56 SpD / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon

Set could be optimised further but the EVs allow zone to tank one earth power from Heatran and Kyurem after SR and obviously KOs back with Mirror coat. Mirror coat is very unexpected but cool tech. AV Magnezone can still trap the metal birds and serves as a decent one/two time switch in to Lele, Dragapult, Koko and some other special attackers. It can be used as a decent switch in for special attackers on more offensive teams. I used on a Volt turn team with Volc, Rillaboom and Kart and had good results. One replay I saved on the decently high ladder (1700s) where zone put in a ton of work: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1329911805

Edit: Thanks Drahe for help with the larger sprite
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 112 SpA / 56 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature

IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Flash Cannon
- Mirror Coat
- Body Press

For a different spread, this one has the same defensive potential as yours, but I don't think Zone needs THAT much speed; I see that you are trying to outspeed Heatran, but it doesn't really make sense when you're trying to KO it using a negative priority move in Mirror Coat anyway. Zone could use a bit more power and have more SpAtk EVs. Also, just the tiniest of Def investment allows Magnezone to always 3HKO 252/252+ Blissey with Body Press, which is a very cool interaction as if you catch a Blissey on a Teleport with Body Press, suddenly it can't switch into Magnezone anymore due to the risk of getting 2HKOd by Body Press. Also, this deals A LOT more damage than Flash Cannon to SpDef Tyranitar, another troublesome mon for Volcarona. Yes you lose the momentum-grabbing Volt Switch, but I think those Blissey and Tyranitar interaction are pretty interesting, specifically for Volcarona. Also, Discharge is an option for Electric STAB because the yellow magic is beautiful. This outspeeds univested and 4 Spe EVs base 70s (mainly Skarmory)
 
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 112 SpA / 56 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature

IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Flash Cannon
- Mirror Coat
- Body Press

For a different spread, this one has the same defensive potential as yours, but I don't think Zone needs THAT much speed; I see that you are trying to outspeed Heatran, but it doesn't really make sense when you're trying to KO it using a negative priority move in Mirror Coat anyway. Zone could use a bit more power and have more SpAtk EVs. Also, just the tiniest of Def investment allows Magnezone to always 3HKO 252/252+ Blissey with Body Press, which is a very cool interaction as if you catch a Blissey on a Teleport with Body Press, suddenly it can't switch into Magnezone anymore due to the risk of getting 2HKOd by Body Press. Also, this deals A LOT more damage than Flash Cannon to SpDef Tyranitar, another troublesome mon for Volcarona. Yes you lose the momentum-grabbing Volt Switch, but I think those Blissey and Tyranitar interaction are pretty interesting, specifically for Volcarona. Also, Discharge is an option for Electric STAB because the yellow magic is beautiful. This outspeeds univested and 4 Spe EVs base 70s (mainly Skarmory)
The problem with that set is that Modest Tran Earth Power has a roll to OHKO. While very rare, they DO exist. It's better to just focus on trapping Tran as much as you can, when you run a set like this -

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat

This set guaranteed lives a EP from Modest Tran after rocks. However, even this set is not guaranteed to work as a 0 SpAtk Tran has a roll to not even do enough with Magma Storm to this set to get reverse KOed from Mirror Coat. On min roll, Max HP Tran only takes 87% back from Mirror Coat. On the plus side, this set does take 2 Lava Plumes from Tran, only seen on 0 SpAtk variants, so you could trap even those rare variants.

I think 87 min not too bad and you have roll to still kill from full however, it is not in your favor at all. You technically can just ignore Modest as they are very rare and then this problem goes away but this set will work against all variants except the even rarer specs versions and eruption variants. At the end of the day Zone is just isn't meant to trap Tran. We can kind of try with this but it there a lot of variants that still won't get trapped by this. It is impossible to umbrella trap all Tran variants with a Zone.
 
The problem with that set is that Modest Tran Earth Power has a roll to OHKO. While very rare, they DO exist. It's better to just focus on trapping Tran as much as you can, when you run a set like this -

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat

This set guaranteed lives a EP from Modest Tran after rocks. However, even this set is not guaranteed to work as a 0 SpAtk Tran has a roll to not even do enough with Magma Storm to this set to get reverse KOed from Mirror Coat. On min roll, Max HP Tran only takes 87% back from Mirror Coat. On the plus side, this set does take 2 Lava Plumes from Tran, only seen on 0 SpAtk variants, so you could trap even those rare variants.

I think 87 min not too bad and you have roll to still kill from full however, it is not in your favor at all. You technically can just ignore Modest as they are very rare and then this problem goes away but this set will work against all variants except the even rarer specs versions and eruption variants. At the end of the day Zone is just isn't meant to trap Tran. We can kind of try with this but it there a lot of variants that still won't get trapped by this. It is impossible to umbrella trap all Tran variants with a Zone.
It definitely isn't, but this set has merits outside of somewhat trapping Heatran. Anything that can or has the potential to remove Heatran from the game AND do something else deserves attention. It still traps Skarmory and a chipped Corviknight well, plus with the increased SpDef bulk it's able to actually switch once or twice into STABs from stuff that it can immediately threaten back (Kyurem, Lele, Tornadus, Zapdos, even Specs Pult only 3HKOs with Shadow Ball), also Body Press is an interesting move for AV sets for the aforementioned reasons. I think AV Mirror Coat is an underexplored set
 
It definitely isn't, but this set has merits outside of somewhat trapping Heatran. Anything that can or has the potential to remove Heatran from the game deserves attention. It still traps Skarmory and a chipped Corviknight well, plus with the increased SpDef bulk it's able to actually switch once or twice into STABs from stuff that it can immediately threaten back (Kyurem, Lele, Tornadus, Zapdos, even Specs Pult only 3HKOs with Shadow Ball), also Body Press is an interesting move for AV sets for the aforementioned reasons. I think AV Mirror Coat is an underexplored set
I agree, I have used it a lot, dont know why players dont consider ir more. Trapping tran is a bigger deal than ferro itself. Helps with koko and dragapult but in some matches it isnt useful because u lack power and speed but the reward are huge like removing tran can let stuff like volc and Banded tini to be a big deal
 
Magnet Pull is, as defined by the community in the Arena Trap suspect, objectively broken. No one can successfully tell me that Magnet trapping is something that rewards skillful play or that makes OU more fun. It's just something we're used to just like how Arena Trap is something we were "used to" for a decade or so until we decided it wasn't something we wanted in our meta.

Similarly trapping moves are also objectively bad for the meta. Is getting your Pokémon Blocked and PP stalled by Toxapex a rewarding experience? How about weird niche trappers like Whirlpool Urshifu or just fucking regular old Magma Storm Heatran? Remember that Sub Whirlpool Protective Pads Dracovish from pre-DLC 1? Oh yes, such a good mechanic.

Switching is considered a huge part of 6v6 singles battles and moves / abilities that restrict this are opposite to a skilled meta that champions player ability over game mechanics. However there are a lot of broken mechanics in Pokémon. Sure Magnet Pull is broken but so is the random 85-100% damage roll, 6.25% crit ratio, and even things like damage matchup or secondary effects like tbolt para. There's a lot to this game that rewards luck / game mechanics > skill.

So the question isn't what is broken, but what's SO broken that Pokémon feels like luck vs skill, or what is so overwhelmingly dominating that you feel like you constantly need to alter your team to handle it. Yeah Maggy is bullshit but you see it one in 25 battles, or 1 in 10 at 1825+. You're probably going to lose more matches to crits or secondary effects than Magnet Trap. How often will you lose to Block Toxapex? Probably even less so.

tl;dr Imo trapping moves / abilities are objectively broken and not good for the meta. No one "likes" getting trapped and running a Shed Shell is a huge opportunity cost for something that will show up once every 10 games at best (and can be Knocked Off). However Smogon only has so many "ban" silver bullets before things get silly. Fire those bullets at game breaking Ubers like Spectrier or Zamazenta. Trapping makes the game worse but so do a lot of Pokémon mechanics. At its core Pokémon has a lot of luck and bad traits, but that's just part of it. There's only so much you can ban before you might as well just play a different game.
 
Moving away from the discussion about Magnezone for awhile, I would like a small suggestion with regards to suspect test requirements: increase the minimum number of games required to 50, while keeping GXE requirements constant (i.e. 80%).

I shall preface this post with quotes made by Finchinator in the Zamazenta-C suspect NP thread.
" (see: only playing from 1000 to 1600 or so to get reqs over a small sample size -- this is nowhere near close to getting a full picture of the metagame and makes me wonder if a better system is needed in the future) "
" I urge people to actually play more than the bare minimum and see if the playstyles you feel are made significantly worse are actually worse -- spoiler alert: it is not that straight forward. "

I wholeheartedly agree that playing only 30 games or so may not be the best way to go about making an informed decision, because firstly, such a small sample size is most likely not representative of the OU metagame, and secondly, the level of play at mid-ladder and high-ladder (above 1700s) is significantly different. So why not simply increase the minimum number of games required to 50? The OU ladder is very active and constantly see a high volume of battles daily. As such, players do not need to wait as long to find a battle (as compared to the lower tiers). Furthermore, players with similar Elo/skill level will more likely be matched in a battle, thereby forcing players to spend just a little more time working their way further up the ladder beyond the 1600s to achieve reqs.

I believe that playing at least 50 games is reasonable and is at least able to alleviate the problem of getting reqs over a small sample size, and hope that the OU council will consider this proposal.
 
tl;dr Imo trapping moves / abilities are objectively broken and not good for the meta
Oh boy. I was kind of worried that this train of thought was going to go here eventually, but I was debating whether to say something since I didn't want to trot out the old slippery-slope fallacy. That if Magnet Pull needed to be banned because consistency, what was to stop trapping moves from facing the banhammer on the same principle? And yet, apparently this argument was more than just a possibility.

Even if we argue that Magnet Pull should inherently be banned for consistency with the Shadow Tag and Arena Trap bans, I would argue that trapping moves are inherently less overwhelming since a) you have to manually activate it and b) using a trapping move demands a precious move slot, meaning you will often have to sacrifice another potentially good move. And, to be blunt, most trapping moves frankly suck. Outside of Magma Storm, when is the last time you actually saw any trapping moves being used on a consistent basis? As good as trapping inherently is, most trapping moves are just too weak for serious competitive play. Not to mention using trapping moves effectively requires you to stay in, and given that your opponent can always just switch out before you use the move, it can potentially turn into a disadvantage for the trapper. Are we really going to argue that fricking Bind needs to be banned even though literally no one actually uses it? What about Jaw Lock? It traps the opponent, and should on this principle be banned,- and it also inherently sucks because you can easily trap yourself with a mon that destroys you. Pretty much the only good user of trapping moves in OU is Magma Storm Heatran, and while that move is strong it also has low PP and will often miss when you need it most due to shaky accuracy.

This is the main reason why I can't agree with Magnet Pull being banned solely for consistency. While arguing that trapping in and of itself is broken has a certain line of logic to it, it is still technically an arbitrary distinction to make; there has never been any official line about switching being a "fundamental part of the game" from Game Freak or TPC (you can play plenty of battles in-game without switching), so ultimately that is something that we the playerbase made up, even if it was logical to do so. And with that in mind, is it really logical to ban a whole subset of moves solely to comply with some principle based on arbitrary criteria even when those moves largely don't do anything? This kind of mindset is also why I'm iffy about banning King's Rock; if we establish flinch as something inherently uncompetitive, then doesn't "consistency" demand we also ban Serene Grace because of flinch hax? Doesn't it demand we ban Stench because it can cause additional flinches, even though none of Stench's users are OU, nor do they even use Stench since all have strictly superior abilities? If you're really going to argue we go this far to prevent any kind of trapping, then what's to stop the argument that banning an item for flinch-hax means we should eliminate all other sources of flinch-hax?

Sure, your specific example of Block Toxapex does not sound like a particularly pleasant experience. Then again, neither does your attacker getting paralyzed by Zapdos' Static and being fully-paralyzed four turns in a row leading to them getting KOed. Is that unfair? Yes. Does that mean Static should be banned because something like that could happen? Of course not. That would be both arbitrary and stupid. As annoying as it is, we can't ban things, especially not whole concepts, just because it can be annoying. I find Toxapex very annoying, but that doesn't mean it needs to get banned; as much as I hate it, I can acknowledge that Crown Tundra has added a good deal of somewhat reliable counters to this mon. I also find it funny this was your first example because if anything banning trapping as a whole would probably benefit stall more than anything else; after all, Magma Storm Heatran mainly exists to be a stallbreaker. And trust me, stall does not need anymore help in the current meta; those mons are perfectly viable, they make up a good percentage of the meta, they're doing fine.

Bottom line, if we do decide to ban Magnet Pull, we should at least have more of a reason than just "because consistency", because otherwise we're inviting this exact kind of overly-general argument. And as for banning trapping moves- no.
 
Last edited:

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
Moderator
Switching is a fundamental part of how we play our game, but that does not mean you can go out of your way to remove every single measure that prohibits it. Bolding things from posts pertaining to older metagames with different contexts pertains very little to anything happening right now.

We have to look at things in the context of our current metagame and ask if specific exploits are broken or not, uncompetitive or not, etc. when determining banworthiness. There is absolutely a practical side to things that applies to any given metagame state where these matters are being discussed. For many years, Dugtrio and even Gothitelle were allowed in OU generations due to lack of usage and limited practical applications. Eventually they grew in effectivneess and became problematic, so they were looked at. We are not going to ban things "just because", but rather due to the metagame we are playing warranting that line of action.

I personally would be content looking into Magnet Pull if people felt it was problematic in the metagame. Do I think it is? Not quite currently, but I am just one person and I value the feedback I get from others a lot. This is why I keep up with this thread, my PMs, the surveys, and so much more -- I ant to understand the perception of the players who know the metagame well. I know some posters in this thread and experienced players like WoF feel that way and I am happy to bring that up in the council -- which, by the way, will be having a new "council minutes" thread to keep everyone in the loop in the near future. However, if people are going to simply play the "this similar thing happened in the past, so we must act the same here" without backing it up, then we're going in the wrong direction and that is absolutely not exemplary of justified opinions backed by metagame experience that will do anyone any good. There's a fine line that we have to toe with these discussions in order to remain relevant and keep moving forward rather than dwelling on the past and going in circles, so let's keep that in mind.
 
Honestly it's bizarre to me that this is the generation that the Magnet Pull discussions seem to be picking up steam, given how this is the generation that Magnezone has the fewest potential victims since its inception. The difference between Arena Trap/Shadow Tag vs. Magnet Pull is obvious: the number of Pokémon trapped by the former two is incomparably higher. Due to this, the number of Pokémon that can be trapped and removed even by pathetic users of the former abilities like Wynaut and Trapinch is more than Magnezone. It doesn't put nearly as much of a matchup reliance strain on team building. Magnezone isn't totally useless if there isn't a Steel type on the opposing team. Compare this to Gen 5 Diglett which was incredibly useless against most teams but basically caused an auto-loss of sand balance against HO sun at team preview. None of this is nearly as relevant as the fact, though, that most well built teams will only have one, maybe two, Pokémon that can be trapped and removed by a single set. And in most cases, Magnezone's trapping of one of those will preclude it from being healthy enough to reliably trap the other. The consistency argument plainly doesn't apply given its trap targets aren't particularly synergetic with one another and often can't be trapped by the same set if they do end up on the same team. If Magnet Pull suddenly became capable of trapping more than a single type, maybe this would be worth revisiting.
 
Honestly it's bizarre to me that this is the generation that the Magnet Pull discussions seem to be picking up steam, given how this is the generation that Magnezone has the fewest potential victims since its inception.
A lot of players right now are probably young so perhaps many of them don't remember when magnezon was closer to be op with hp fire (before that megas were even introduced).

Ban slowtwins and magmastorm/sandtomb and maybe the metagame will be truly balanced when we will have 6 toxapex vs 6 toxapex lol.

anyway, rillaboom definitely deserves A+ especially after the ban of zama, everyone and their mothers use it, the steel birds are easily pressured and this mon is really splashable because it counters HO but at the same time it's a staple in various HO archetypes.
Why this mon is still A after so long goes beyond my comprehension.
 
I still think that if anything remotely related to trapping is allowed in the tier, then the council should at least make an official statement about what exactly is competitive or not. At any rate, I'm not gonna rant anymore, for now, about magnet pull since I've already made my case

I just wanna know, am I the only one who thinks that Zamazenta was tested at a wrong time? I mean, some arguments on why it should be banned was what it could do with support, which I personally don't agree since for me, what determines whether a mon is banworthy or not is what it can do on its own and anything it can do with support would be just icing on the cake. Of course, the support I'm talking about is future sight, which there were a few cases, reasonable ones at that I've bumped into these dumbass future sight Zama thing. I won't go into much detail since it has already been mentioned a lot that future sight when combined with teleport is fucking stupid so I'll just get to the point. Am I the only one who thinks that we should have looked at future sight first before the suspect?

Don't get me wrong, I know there were other arguments that Zama's ridiculous bulk and speed made it somewhat difficult to check or about how it would warp the tier. I could understand those parts since I have played against a lot of Zamazentas but what I'm curious about is the future sight. Zama is just one more in the long list of pokemon that abuses this combo but its own unique characteristics allowed it to somewhat stand out among others that abuses it. So, am I the only who think that future sight, or along with its partner, teleport, should have been a priority before Zama?
 
I really felt on reading some of the previous replies that people were underselling Zone a bit much. Both sides always kind of knowingly exaggerate to prove their points but I still kind of wanted to talk about Zone after using the balloon set of his-

Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Modest Nature
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 220 Def / 200 SpA / 88 Spe
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon

This set 2HKOes defensive Lando with Rocks up and still able OHKO Max Max Ferro at +6. Set to outspeed Skarmory.

I think Air Balloon is much better than Leftovers because then you can even trap Exca (from around 70%) and Melly while Ferro is still guaranteed. (Not factoring in Flinches or Crits ofc). The real strength of this however is that it is not useless when it's targets don't show up. Stab thunderbolt is still pretty good in OU and the Flash Cannon accompanying can 2HKO the ground types. In matches that you aren't planning in setting up iron defense body press, a one time EQ immunity really makes it difficult to play around instead of lefties that don't do anything in that scenario.

Now, I saw a post that even considers Skarmory and Corvi as unreliable to be trapped by such this set. But it is definitely able to trap those 2. It traps Ferro unless it comes in on a Body Press directly. It is able to trap Exca from 70% unless iron head flinch. It is able to trap Melly if it is able to come in cleanly at full. It is able to trap Bish if it gets in cleanly or switches into iron head. It is able to trap scarf kart locked into any move besides sacred sword. Non Uturn Scisor and non Uturn Spdef also get trapped.

Tbh the only mons that can't be trapped at all with this set are Tran, opposing Zone (it's a 50/50) and Aegis.

The mons I mentioned above have tools to take care of Zone and even kill but you can't just give credit to the player playing against the trapper to prevent such scenarios. A component player can and will make these scenarios happen and trap them. A single Zone can't trap a Ferro and a Melly but it can trap a Steel bird + some from the above list.

You can say that, see that makes it balanced, it is required to be played correctly with skill to do it's job but technically all trappers had that requirement of getting in safely vs it's target. And the biggest problem is that the trapper only is required to do that once while the trapped is required to do that until the trapper faints. That skewed the interaction in trapper's favour. This is the same scenario like that of other trapping abilities and is similarly uncompetitive albeit with a fewer targets but the principal works similarly.

However, if switching is not considered fundamental part of the game then I don't have an argument for Magnet Pull. I am calling for it being uncompetitive on the precedent I have seen, not broken. At the end of the day it is basically what the community wants.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
Moderator
I still think that if anything remotely related to trapping is allowed in the tier, then the council should at least make an official statement about what exactly is competitive or not.
This is an impossible ask. On the general side, we have a publicized tiering policy framework that gives definitions and whatnot. However, applying this principal to the current metagame is oftentimes a matter of opinion and can be discussed on dozens of different fronts. There’s a reason why we have suspect discussions, votes, and surveys — the community decides what is banworthy (I.e: broken, uncompetitive, etc.) more often than not and that’s how the system is designed. We are already working towards being more publicized with council minutes coming soon and me posting frequently, but this ask is not particularly reasonable for any council or leading group that assigns power to their community.


I just wanna know, am I the only one who thinks that Zamazenta was tested at a wrong time?
This and the entire second half of your post has no place here. It’s a thread clearly geared towards current metagame discussion; it’s been made public repeatedly that if you have issues with timing or process, you can PM the council. There cannot possibly be anything gained by this and you know that.
 
Magnet pull in principle is no different than Shadow tag, as far as uncompetitiveness goes. Think about the fact that in the early and even in much of the middle game, you typically, on any given turn, have 4 moves to choose from with the mon you currently have out, and in your pokeballs you have 5 other mons to choose from as possible switchins. That means you typically have 9 options to choose from on a given turn at this stage. Shadow Tag and Magnet pull, limits your ability to switch. This means at the most, your usual 9 options have been cut down by more than half, from 9 to 4.

Meanwhile, your opponent will still have up to their usual 9 options still available, not only easing prediction for the trapping player, but ensuring that they can likely remove the trapped mon from the game, while still almost always having the option to switch out when the trapped players bring in his or her next mon for an attempted revenge kill. But it's even worse than that. usuallly, the trapping mon will only stay in on a mon that can't threaten it back, so those 4 move options the trapped mon has are usually useless, which means there is nothing at all a more skilled player can do to salvage that situation.

Furthermore, The trapping ability also gives initiative and momentum to the trapper, even if the trapper doesn't actually KO the mon being trapped, as now the trapper can just double switch out to a setup sweeper that can set up on the trapped mon, while the double switching option isn't really an option for the trapped.


Trapping abilities make the mon(s) they trap a liability to have on the enemy team. This means that the onus is on the other player to either risk losing the mon trapped by shadow tag, creating holes in their offense and defense, or losing momentum. which means the risk of switching your mon in and keeping it in is very high, effectively making that slot useless.

HOWEVER, Magnet Pull and Shadow Tag/Arena Trap are practically different in the current metagame in that Shadow tag can be used to trap any mon in the metagame, while magnet pull works specifically on steels which are popular but usually only take 2 slots on an enemy team at most. Magnet pull is thus far more matchup-reliant. Shadow tag's various users thus have the powerful ability to allow a player to remove at least one key threat on an enemy team. And this is not even getting into the fact that the only real viable user of Magnet pull (Magnezone) can only viably trap a limited number of steel types in OU due to its own other issues that are independent of Magnet Pull as an ability.

So every so often, teams that rely on certain steel types as their main line of defense against the threats Magnezone is often paired with, will have to play very riskily with their steel type in terms of deciding when to switch it in or not, or when to switch out. In matchups where this isn't the case, Magnet pull doesn't matter. So it still creates a matchup issue ( some games decided at team preview) but just not as often or as severe.

According to the cited framework, Matchup issues are only bad when the amount of viable counter-teams to a strategy is so low that the meta becomes overcentralized, in other words the matchups outside of the nice teams that can be used for counterplay are otherwise so bad that there is no skillful decision making that can be viably used in-game to overcome the other team's kryptonite to your team. So either everyone ends up running that overpowered strategy or the niche counter-team, or it becomes a mix where running the counter to said overpowered strategy leaves you unable to beat the few other more moderately powerful but still viable strategies due to matchup.

I don't think Magnet Pull ( or Magnezone) will have these kinds of effects on the current meta any time soon, for the same reason they didn't in the previous generations because Magnezone and (Magnet pull) as they are now are not powerful and versatile enough to put a huge enough constraint on teambuilding or create a Rock/paper Scissors metagame.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 10, Guests: 10)

Top