Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3161)

Am I the only one who thinks the meta game is perfectly fine right now? There are obviously stronger mons then others, but I don’t think there are any threats that cannot be handled at all. If I had to ban one thing, it would probably have to be Heavy Duty Boots. Personally I think that boots have warped the meta game around them completely. Most teams have 3-4 members running boots and it gets to the point where running defog isn’t a necessity anymore. Boots make pivot cores extremely potent and it makes it really hard to punish certain mons without helmet or rough skin. I think suspecting boots in the future would be nice to see.
 
Am I the only one who thinks the meta game is perfectly fine right now? There are obviously stronger mons then others, but I don’t think there are any threats that cannot be handled at all. If I had to ban one thing, it would probably have to be Heavy Duty Boots. Personally I think that boots have warped the meta game around them completely. Most teams have 3-4 members running boots and it gets to the point where running defog isn’t a necessity anymore. Boots make pivot cores extremely potent and it makes it really hard to punish certain mons without helmet or rough skin. I think suspecting boots in the future would be nice to see.
I completely disagree. Boots have considerably opened up team building, with bulky pivots being able to run on more offensive squads for the first time in generations. It might feel stifling because the metagame has been centralized around hazards at different levels for 6 generations. Stealth Rock for instance in gen 4 was far more centralizing than boots has ever been this Gen, to the point where being down 5-6 with your opponent's lead at full health could be worth it if you got rocks up. The fact that teams no longer have to run removal techniques is a testament to freeing up team building, not restricting it. There is also significant counterplay, specifically knock off which is incredibly easy to slot on a team. Compare this to rapid spin in Gen 3-5 which could only be run on certain archetypes due to its limited distribution among often subpar Pokémon. I think the problem is really the Regenerator mons that abuse the strategy, with Slowking, Tornadus-T and Toxapex all potentially being broken. However, I'm not settled on all of these and could potentially see all of them being manageable long term. The fact that the absurd overabundance of Landorus-T, Ferrothorn and Heatran that we have all incessantly endured for the last decade is curtailed slightly points to the way the item opens up the metagame.
 
The way I see it, there's 2 separate discussions:
1: Is Magnezone/Magnet Pull overpowered?
2: Is Magnet Pull uncompetitive?

On 1, all I can say is that Magnezone is A- on the viability rankings and I tend to agree with that. It's annoying, sometimes it shows up and is designed specifically to counter your steel and you have to heavily play around it, but IMO that says more about how hard teambuilding in this tier is already. Magnezone isn't the problem, it's just that sweepers are dangerous enough that any additional pressure on your counter can wreck your team. (see also: Future Sight, King's Rock, etc)
2 is more interesting. Either all trapping abilities are uncompetitive, in which case ban Magnet Pull, or trapping abilities are fine, trapping mons can be broken, in which case ban Gothitelle/Dugtrio and test the Eviolite Trappers. I don't really like either of those solutions, but if we want a coherent ruleset that values precedent, those are the options.
 
Just saying that if you think that Boots have warped the Meta around them, then you must accept that Stealth Rock has done exactly the same since DPP. I personally would be fine with banning Boots if either Spikes or Rocks go with them too. But it’s better to leave everything unbanned and just don,t have hazards as your main win condition.
 
Apologies for my last comment. Dunno what I was thinking there but was legit curious

But anyway, I wanted to share a mon that has been doing a decent amount of work for me but I just haven't found the right team for it yet. It's nothing too original because this set has been around since this mon was introduced


:choice scarf::sm/garchomp::choice scarf:
Ra's al Ghul (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Brick Break


I asked about this in the sqsa thread and the ones who answered basically said the same thing, it sucks. When I tried it, it really sucks but that's exactly why this mon was so effective. Garchomp these days are like 60% sd scale shot, 25% tank and 15% mixed, on a wild guess. This set is mostly outclassed by Lando but because of that mindset, it actually gave me a lot of advantage in a battle. Now, I was looking at the viability list and I wanted to use a mon that is a terrifying wall breaker but is held back due to the presence of all the speedsters in the tier. That pokemon was nasty plot Hydreigon with life orb and that mon has a lot of issues including it being revenge killed by stuff like Dragapult, cc Zeraora and especially Tapu Koko. So, I was looking for a mon that would be able to kill them all in one shot. Naturally scarf Lando is the most obvious candidate but the problem is, no sane person is ever gonna leave those three out against a Lando until they are sure it's not scarfed. This is where Garchomp comes in and destroys these mons

It works really great because Dragapult and Weavile are never gonna switch out of a Garchomp due to how much scarf Chomp sucks and many like to lead off with them because of their speed or other reasons, which means that on the very first turn of battle, I can already secure an advantage by getting rid of the fast threat, allowing my Hydreigon, or any other wall breaker for that matter, to go brrrr. Tapu Koko is also on the same boat because it is almost always gonna u turn or dazzling gleam against Chomp, only to be surprised when I reveal my hand. I won't deny, this set is incredibly one dimensional and is probably only used for this specific purpose

The other thing that I like about this set is that I am given an offensive answer to Volcarona and its stupid fucking boots. Everyone here already knows I'm the number one boots hater. I won't talk about that too much since Garchomp has been revenge killing stuff before it faded out of existence in gen seven. This set is just my personal preference. I gave my Garchomp brick break because I want to kill Weavile as soon as possible. Stone edge does that but I'm not gonna risk my surprise factor in the hands of a fifty percent accurate move. I also chose dragon claw over outrage because locking into outrage on the first turn can be really annoying

On first glance this also means that this set is only limited to the first turn but that's not necessarily the case. With some of the volt turns running around, it can actually get into position to get rid of the marked targets because of the mindset that its targets are never gonna switch out of it. Even when the jig is up, this can still get work done since its still Garchomp. It always does something no matter what, even if it is just so miniscule such as this

This set sucks, is incredibly one dimensional, needs some kind of support but really, anything that can get rid of these annoying fast threats is always something worth checking out for me especially if I can get rid of them on the first turn
 
I'm not getting behind the "meta is balanced" thing. Because it is simply not the case.

This is a false impression. The meta is far from being balanced or perfectly fine. There's one big issue: There's too much threats one team should be prepared for: Dragapult, Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Tornadus-Therian, Rillaboom, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Zeraora, Weavile, Toxapex, Blissey and Heatran, just to name a few. Teambuilding rn is really difficult.

Let's take this team I've made for exemple:

https://pokepast.es/ac8238dae077660b

Pretty straight forward team. It cover a vast portion of the threat list... except one: Specs Dragapult.
Indeed, each time he comes, he claims or 2HKO a mon on my team:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 355-418 (104.1 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 280-330 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 319-376 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 154-183 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 668-788 (210.7 - 248.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Several options exist to make my team less weak to Specs Dragapult:

Switching Corviknight for Mandibuzz (even tho Draco Meteor hits it hard) but then, my team will get 6-0 by Weavile.
Making Heatran Specially Defensive. But I will lose its wallbreaking potential (but not its stallbreaking).
Somehow finding a room for a Calm Clefable, maybe instead of Slowking, making my team weaker to Lele but let it handles Kyurem a bit better.
I need Dragapult for my team not to be 6-0 by SubRoost Kyurem.
etc...

I can't modify my team without exposing it to another threat. The only option that would not make me change my team is to turn Heatran into a SpDef Wall, making my team a semi-stall (and I probably need to put a Specs on Dragapult). And making the match-up against Kyurem and Lele a bit easier.

Down the line, some Pokemon on that threat list needs to go, to ease the teambuilding process.
I feel like there's no solid building actually without 50/50 situations against some matchup.
Also opposite team's objective is to overhelm your defensive answers and this meta have a great breaking potential, that's why people complain about future-sight ; magnet-pull ; heatran ; rillaboom ; etc..... searching to ban "the" breaking presence that will easier building process.
Conclusion = solidity of your team rely on your playing skills with predictions.

► some ideas for your building :
_:dragapult::choice-scarf:
_:rillaboom::kartana: (:choice-scarf: / :life-orb:)
_:slowking::blissey: (t-wave spam for orb-kartana)
 
I'm not getting behind the "meta is balanced" thing. Because it is simply not the case.

This is a false impression. The meta is far from being balanced or perfectly fine. There's one big issue: There's too much threats one team should be prepared for: Dragapult, Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Tornadus-Therian, Rillaboom, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Zeraora, Weavile, Toxapex, Blissey and Heatran, just to name a few. Teambuilding rn is really difficult.

Let's take this team I've made for exemple:

https://pokepast.es/ac8238dae077660b

Pretty straight forward team. It cover a vast portion of the threat list... except one: Specs Dragapult.
Indeed, each time he comes, he claims or 2HKO a mon on my team:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 355-418 (104.1 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 280-330 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 319-376 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 154-183 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 668-788 (210.7 - 248.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Several options exist to make my team less weak to Specs Dragapult:

Switching Corviknight for Mandibuzz (even tho Draco Meteor hits it hard) but then, my team will get 6-0 by Weavile.
Making Heatran Specially Defensive. But I will lose its wallbreaking potential (but not its stallbreaking).
Somehow finding a room for a Calm Clefable, maybe instead of Slowking, making my team weaker to Lele but let it handles Kyurem a bit better.
I need Dragapult for my team not to be 6-0 by SubRoost Kyurem.
etc...

I can't modify my team without exposing it to another threat. The only option that would not make me change my team is to turn Heatran into a SpDef Wall, making my team a semi-stall (and I probably need to put a Specs on Dragapult). And making the match-up against Kyurem and Lele a bit easier.

Down the line, some Pokemon on that threat list needs to go, to ease the teambuilding process.
I think this argument is weak because first of all there is no broken overarching mechanic available (z moves and dynamax especially) AND, most importantly, if you could build the perfect team everyone would use it. It's completely fine and healthy to have this type of issue in the teambuilder. It stimulates creativity and diversification, unlike it would be if there were 2-3 prominent threats. If you remember, when Dracovish was around everyone was running Seismitoad, when Urshifu-Broken was around everyone was running physically defensive Clefable/Tapu Fini + regen core. Now, those two were broken, but the issue is that having a restricted amount of breaking power creates a stale, boring stallish metagame, which is neither balanced or healthy. This is in fact the most balanced SS OU we have since its beginning.

It's kind of funny that you can see that a metagame is balanced when lando-t is firmly #1 in usage: dude's a symbol of balance.
 
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Finchinator

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No single team is perfect, even in the most balanced metagames. Trade-offs exist and we accept that as players of the game. Outlining your team being weak to one or another Pokemon no matter what has absolutely no correlation to a subpar metagame state given the small sample of one player and one team.

This meta can use improvement and I do not think it is perfectly balanced, but the point above should not be how we approach arguing any of this.
 
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Yeah specs Dragapult is quite limiting in the builder. Most checks like Clefable and Hippowdon aren't as reliable as I'd like since they need to at almost full health and are prone to getting worn down / screwed over by Shadow Ball SpDef drops. It feels like I need to run Tyraniatar / Blissey on almost every team just so pult doesn't claim a kill everytime it switches in. It doesn't help that nearly every Dragapult switch-in is passive (though tbf, it does have a fair amount of offensive counterplay like Weavile, Bisharp, etc.). I'm not sure if its necessarily broken, but I do find it much harder to deal with than other meta-defining threats like Landorus-t and even Zamazenta-C when it was being tested.
 
Yeah specs Dragapult is quite limiting in the builder. Most checks like Clefable and Hippowdon aren't as reliable as I'd like since they need to at almost full health and are prone to getting worn down / screwed over by Shadow Ball SpDef drops. It feels like I need to run Tyraniatar / Blissey on almost every team just so pult doesn't claim a kill everytime it switches in. It doesn't help that nearly every Dragapult switch-in is passive (though tbf, it does have a fair amount of offensive counterplay like Weavile, Bisharp, etc.). I'm not sure if its necessarily broken, but I do find it much harder to deal with than other meta-defining threats like Landorus-t and even Zamazenta-C when it was being tested.
to deal with Dragapult, I stole the idea of running spdef Heatran and Clefable on the same team. As a result, the balance team I copied that had this core didn't have much trouble with Dragapult.
 
306CFC09-EC08-4F66-900A-43CA1E34877A.png

^ me waiting for a Dragapult suspect

It’s a huge creativity bottleneck when there’s an objectively best offensive mon in the tier that clicks u-turn and shadow ball endlessly. I miss pursuit more every day, there’s little way to punish pult rn (old gen specs lati had to be a little strategic if you had a Tyranitar, pult just does whatever it wants all game).
 
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^ me waiting for a Dragapult suspect

It’s a huge creativity bottleneck when there’s an objectively best offensive mon in the tier that clicks u-turn and shadow ball endlessly. I miss pursuit more every day, there’s little way to punish pult rn (old gen specs lati had to be a little strategic if you had a Tyranitar, pult just does whatever it wants all game).
An example of dragapult's overcentralizing nature can be seen in
to deal with Dragapult, I stole the idea of running spdef Heatran and Clefable on the same team. As a result, the balance team I copied that had this core didn't have much trouble with Dragapult.
That is a lot to check ONE pokemon.

IMO, the main checks/counters to Dragapult that people cite are:
Bisharp (lol, substitute mindgames, flamethrower, cant swap in)
Blissey (U-Turn or physical sets say hi)
Clefable (doesn't like eating a shadow ball let alone with chip from uturn: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Corvi (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 169-201 (42.2 - 50.2%) )
Heatran (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 126-148 (32.6 - 38.3%) )
Hippowdon (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 348-409 (82.8 - 97.3%) )
Mandibuzz (OK you got me here, but Draco still does over half and has a chance to 2hko- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-424 (84.6 - 100.2%) )
Zeraora (Cannot come in)
Tyranitar (Draco does 1/3. Enough said)

worth noting that while modest kinda sucks, it also makes a lot of these calcs even worse- also DD is very strong and hex willo sets and scarf sets are also lurking somewhere

TLDR: There is quite limited counterplay to dragapult in the current metagame, and it is more than deserving of at least a suspect.
 
An example of dragapult's overcentralizing nature can be seen in

That is a lot to check ONE pokemon.

IMO, the main checks/counters to Dragapult that people cite are:
Bisharp (lol, substitute mindgames, flamethrower, cant swap in)
Blissey (U-Turn or physical sets say hi)
Clefable (doesn't like eating a shadow ball let alone with chip from uturn: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Corvi (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 169-201 (42.2 - 50.2%) )
Heatran (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 126-148 (32.6 - 38.3%) )
Hippowdon (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 348-409 (82.8 - 97.3%) )
Mandibuzz (OK you got me here, but Draco still does over half and has a chance to 2hko- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-424 (84.6 - 100.2%) )
Zeraora (Cannot come in)
Tyranitar (Draco does 1/3. Enough said)

worth noting that while modest kinda sucks, it also makes a lot of these calcs even worse- also DD is very strong and hex willo sets and scarf sets are also lurking somewhere

TLDR: There is quite limited counterplay to dragapult in the current metagame, and it is more than deserving of at least a suspect.
Even with my team, dd sub pult with that two turn ghost move and dragon stab can be scary if the opponent plays it right.


But it takes a lot of setup
 

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An example of dragapult's overcentralizing nature can be seen in

That is a lot to check ONE pokemon.

IMO, the main checks/counters to Dragapult that people cite are:
Bisharp (lol, substitute mindgames, flamethrower, cant swap in)
Blissey (U-Turn or physical sets say hi)
Clefable (doesn't like eating a shadow ball let alone with chip from uturn: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Corvi (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 169-201 (42.2 - 50.2%) )
Heatran (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 126-148 (32.6 - 38.3%) )
Hippowdon (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 348-409 (82.8 - 97.3%) )
Mandibuzz (OK you got me here, but Draco still does over half and has a chance to 2hko- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-424 (84.6 - 100.2%) )
Zeraora (Cannot come in)
Tyranitar (Draco does 1/3. Enough said)

worth noting that while modest kinda sucks, it also makes a lot of these calcs even worse- also DD is very strong and hex willo sets and scarf sets are also lurking somewhere

TLDR: There is quite limited counterplay to dragapult in the current metagame, and it is more than deserving of at least a suspect.
If you're using Pokemon like Clefable, Corviknight, or Hippowdon as Choice Specs Dragapult checks, they need to have Special Defense investment. Of course you're gonna struggle with Choice Specs Dragapult if your counterplay consists of sending in physical walls. :smogduck:
 
while i certainly do not agree with the common sentiments raised in this thread recently about the slowtwins / pult being broken , id like to try and divert some attention and possibly spark some discussion towards what i believe is the most polarizing or rather punishing pokemon in the tier right now :

1619868254462.png
id like to preface this post by saying that while i may not be playing this tier at the highest level possible , id like to claim that i share a decent understanding of the meta and the state of the tier right now , and that i would like to present all my points in the most rational manner possible. Simply put , i feel kyurem is a mon that is insanely good right now due to how much it troubles the common "archetype" that teams like to follow in a sense , owing due to its above average bulk, good speed tier and good typing / movepool.

Possible sets that it may run are as follows : (listed in order of prevalence imo)
1) substitute + freeze dry/ earth power : by far the most common , this set aims at disrupting the defensive backbone that a team may usually follow by being a general source of consistent damage / momentum , be it due to its pp stalling ability in pressure, fishing for freezes , good mu against a lot of what is deemed "bulky" in the tier.
2) specs : very clear cut in what it wants to do , specs kyurem is one of the most strongest hitting wallbreakers in the tier right now, with great stabs + additional coverage like focus blast / earth power that can hit the things that stabs otherwise fail to dent. immediate source of damage output , very threatening and sometimes outright unwallable, again due to a high spa and good move coverage.
3) metronome : same intent as 1) , except it does much better vs fatter builds due to racking up successive metronome hits. however it trades boots which makes it much more vulnerable to hazards , and thus it requires much more careful positioning to bring it in to do its thing. but once its on the field safely , it does its seemingly good job even better , since it can usually dish out multiple hits before its sub is broken and it has to stop the cycle ( again taking into account its defensive answers , the increment in its damage owing to metronome is not as relevant with regards to its offensive checks since they dont take a hit well in the first place ). icicle spear + metronome also ensures that teams that overly rely on blissey to deal with special attackers are pressured more , opening a pathway for the rest of the team's special hitters ( and kyurem itself) to take control of the game.
4) niche sets like dd icicle spear , scarf etc : rarely seen because these sets cover a very small amount of what the aforementioned sets can achieve in the game , but relevant enough to impact the game when they make an appearance nonetheless.

now that we've gone over the sets , id look to go over what i think are the most consistent answers to kyurem in the builder :
Defensively

i believe it is well recognized by now ( looking at the usage trends ) that scizor is the best check to kyurem that one can ask for. resistant to stabs , threatens offensively by virtue of bp / knock , reliable recovery , can give back momentum in the form of u-turn, scizor does it all and can definitely put a hard stop to what kyurem tries to achieve.
1619869806494.png

glowking and clef are the next options after sciz that can somewhat reliably switch into kyurem. if its the boots subroost set, glowking can alternate between future sight + sludge bomb while kyurem can deal about 25-35% damage per turn depending on the evs/set. since kyurem doesnt like to end up being statused / taking future sight , the glowking player may use the turn that kyurem decides to heal itself to switch into their offensive answer to kyurem , like dragapult for instance. specs is also dealt with in a similar fashion , since it eats two hits from full and can threaten the hazard weak kyu with sludge bomb / focus blast. Spdef clef , as seen earlier this gen is also an answer to kyu owing to its typing and good bulk / ability , and its immediate threat in stab moonblast. Specs troubles clef a lot more than glowking since minimal chip can result in it getting 2ohkod by ice beam.


blissey doing its usual job of checking special attackers very handily , nothing new here. with sub and a little hp invesment (56 evs in hp) , a seismic toss doesnt break it , meaning blissey will have to exhaust 4pp in order to break one sub ( thanks to pressure ). But this doesnt mean that sub kyu directly wins the 1v1 right then and there since its freeze dry / earth power do pitiful damage in return , resulting in a stalemate of sorts. I do believe the blissey user has a slight advantage in this scenario since they can just teleport out , either into an offensive answer like infiltrator pult or into a hazard immune mon and switch right back to waste some pp. specs kyurem has a much better outing against blissey however since focus blast has a 64.5% chance to 2HKO, taking into account that bliss stays in and both focus blasts hit. the usual course of action however is to switch out into something that resists/is immune to focus blast and try and heal back blissey later since you dont want specs kyu to be freely clicking ice beam. icicle spear as mentioned earlier is used to trouble blissey by racking up successive hits and forcing it to waste softboiled pp.


ferro and tar are reliable answers to non specs kyurem , owing due to their typing / stab / bulk. usually their purpose on a team is not solely to check kyu , but to set hazards / knock / setup sand etc , checking sub kyu happens to be one other thing that is in their reach. be it sand or the threat of knock / bpress , kyu usually hesitates to sub when these mons are healthy since they can retaliate with knock / bpress / sand / rock blast and neuter its ability to function to come into play later in the game. specs kyu absolutely truck both of these which is why they are mentioned below the above four pokemon. Ferro can opt to run iron head>gyro if it wants both steel coverage and a damaging move to kyu/


something thats less popular and that ive had a decent amount of success with is using roost volc in conjunction with aegislash. pretty simple in concept , roost volc reliably beats sub kyu and even forces it out since kyu is a sitting duck for it to quiver on. for the specs set , aegi by virtue of its typing is able to take minimal damage from its stabs ( usual fourth slot on specs kyu is focus blast miss).


is there anything that big corv cant do? with its own pressure , it can act as a softcheck to sub kyu. can force progress by pp stalling freeze dry's / pivoting into offensive check. is very vulnerable to the fishing for freeze / specs that player must keep in mind so its not the most solid check.

Offensively

Genuinely believe infiltrator or clear body ( to dodge webs and such) pult is the best answer to kyu offensively. realizing the threat of draco , it can also u-turn on the predicted switch to keep up momentum.

as what youd expect , nothing funny here, double iron bash absolutely mollywhops kyurem , just gotta be wary of a specs focus blast if its a 1v1 , otherwise the trade would result in about a half health melmetal and a dead kyu
etc..
grouping all of these together since they are contingent on the kyu not being behind a sub in order to deal with it efficiently. Reliably win the 1v1 if so , otherwise the trade ends up with the kyurem (behind the sub) with the upper hand ( if not victorious )

now coming to why i think its borderline broken / so good : the current style of teams usually allow it many chances to come in and do its thing , be it either sub or specs , and teams cannot usually accomodate for more than 2-3 of the above pokemon if it wants to be prepared for the entire meta imo. sub in my experience usually outclasses specs since it requires lesser support in the builder it in the form of pivots / good hazard removal , and due to how easily it can sub on a lot of bulky mons in the tier that rely on status / knock / other means of crippling it. add this in accordance to its already good hp / bulk and reliable recovery , and sub kyurem always makes the opponent be on their tiptoes on how to deal with it. more often than not , it breaks huge holes in a team due to the opposing player heavily relying on something that "softchecks" it or not having anything to check it at all , since its hard answers are limited to say the least. add in factors such as its defensive answers are vulnerable to hazards + knock , and offensive answers being relatively checkable in the defensive department , youve got a monster that rewards the kyurem user hugely if played and position right. quite a few number of people are of the opinion that its busted , and i am certainly on the fence of whether it is or not , which is why i have made this post. right now i feel , as with all pokemon , it requires good piloting and good positioning , but relatively lesser support for itself to work than other offensive threats of the tier , since pivoting / hazard removal are something that every team (usually) strives to have. its versatility in sets is also something to account for , since i dont believe its always clear from team preview whether its specs/sub , both of which have different counterplay. a reliable and easy strat to determine its set can be simply setting up hazards, not too difficult.

will edit with calcs vs relevant mons later if i feel the need to , right now i feel most of it is fairly obvious and theres nothing groundbreaking that calcs show that is not known already.
 
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TailGlowVM

The firelight of Manaphy
is a Pre-Contributor

something thats less popular and that ive had a decent amount of success with is using roost volc in conjunction with aegislash. pretty simple in concept , roost volc reliably beats sub kyu and even forces it out since kyu is a sitting duck for it to quiver on. for the specs set , aegi by virtue of its typing is able to take minimal damage from its stabs ( usual fourth slot on specs kyu is focus blast miss).
This core is more difficult to use when Kyurem has both Focus Blast and Earth Power, which the OU QC team believes is better.

A couple of other options should you desire other counters:

:ss/sylveon:
Sylveon's massive special bulk and Hyper Voice bypassing Substitutes makes it probably the second-best catch-all check after Scizor. This does mean, however, that you're using a formerly blacklisted mon on the VR, and outside this Sylveon is completely outclassed by Clefable.

:ss/kommo-o:
I mentioned what Kommo-o does here - but I posted it there for a reason, because Scarf Kommo-o hits like a wet towel. I would not recommend this unless you are feeling bored.
 
Another pokemon in the tier that I would like to draw attention to is Tapu Lele. While I don't believe its broken, its Choice Specs set is a phenomenal wallbreaker while Choice Scarf gives it a very good mathup against offense. Other sets include Calm Mind and Heavy Duty Boots, that imo aren't as good as the aforementioned sets, are still very dangerous. This is the best Tapu Lele set in the current meta in my opinion.

:ss/tapu lele:

Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Thunder/ Thunderbolt/Psychic

This set is able to force progress against any team. Psyshock is a STAB attack and lets it deal it deal big damage to dedicated special walls such as :Blissey: , :Slowking-Galar: and the rare :Chansey:. Moonblast is its secondary STAB that compliments Psyshock well by hitting Dark types such as :mandibuzz:, :tyranitar: and :bisharp:. Focus Blast Miss hits steel types such as :heatran:, :ferrothorn:, :scizor:, :excadrill:, :magnezone: and :melmetal: that are otherwise able to take its STAB attacks with relative ease. While Psychic is the widely used fourth move on Tapu Lele, Thunder/Thunderbolt are able to hit targets such as :corviknight:, :skarmory: and :slowking: and score surprise KO's paving a way for its teammates to take advantage of their absence.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 462-544 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 306-361 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 163-192 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 302-356 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 272-320 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Thunder vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 374-440 (93.5 - 110%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
If you're using Pokemon like Clefable, Corviknight, or Hippowdon as Choice Specs Dragapult checks, they need to have Special Defense investment. Of course you're gonna struggle with Choice Specs Dragapult if your counterplay consists of sending in physical walls. :smogduck:
Fair enough- I was probably too lazy by just choosing the first set in the damage calc- lol.
In any case:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 196-232 (49 - 58%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 132-156 (33 - 39%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not that bad, tbf- still a sizable amount but at least reasonably manageable (Although, if corvi comes in once, you predict, then it can't stay in, double again, and then it's lowish and in Shadow Ball range)

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 235-277 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 353-416 (84 - 99%) -- not a KO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, I'll give you this one at least - physical sets can be annoying but Clef can handle it I guess.

I also was a dumbfuck and didn't put Toxapex:

+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 134-162 (44 - 53.2%) -- approx. 17.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

So... it can check ONE of the sets, but not both (ignoring stuff like hex sets which could be annoying in it's own way)


252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO


+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 176-210 (57.8 - 69%) -- approx. 2HKO
 

Katy

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Hello,

with the Usage stats being out for OU (and of course the other tiers as well), i want to talk about the OU Usage stats for this month:

:Landorus-therian:
This Pokemon is actually pretty self explanatory with its top usage, it blanket checks most of the tiers dangerous attackers such as Garchomp, Tapu Koko, Scizor, Zeraora, Dragonite, Hawlucha, and Excadrill. So this Pokemon comes out as a no surprise, that it's ranked that high once again. Not only can it do the aforementioned traits, but it can also execute many necessary roles on teams, be it a defensive Stealth Rock setter, a bulky Defogger, or even an attacker with Swords Dance sets, it can even hold itself with a Suicide Lead set for hyper offensive teams. So Landorus-T once again claimed its crown as the top tier Pokemon in OU. Landorus-T not only has access to necessary defensive or offensive utility, but it fits perfectly on many teambuilds and the range it fits on teams is pretty large, therefore its a top pokemon in the SS OU metagame.

:Weavile:
This should also come as no surprise, Weavile is an excellent Pokemon in the current metagame, with 2 great sets, Choice Band, which likes to dish out Knock Offs, and also Swords Dance sets, which can capitalize on breaking apart weakened teams in the later game. It offers countless of amazing traits, a highly dangerous offensive typing alongside a great Speed tier makes this Pokemon a formidable threat, which teams have to prepare for more and more. I think this is just the beginning of Weaviles future and it will see an uptick in the usage for sure, especially because it can also deal with faster threats such as Dragapult to due to its amazing priority in Ice Shard, which many teams find valuable, but not only that, Dragapult itself is a great partner, making that core a very dangerous to handle one. I am really adamant about, that we will see more of Weavile in the future.

:dragapult:
Spams Choice Specs-boosted attacks like Shadow Ball like no one else, fantastic Speed tier alongside a superb typing makes it one of the top threats in the current metagame, with plenty of sets worthy to use, be it the aforementioned Choice Specs set, Heavy-Duty Boots with crippling status and Hex, or even a Dragon Dance set, this Pokemon offers all of these traits and is for sure one of the most metagame defining Pokemon in the metagame, with not a lot of checks, due to the fact how spammable Shadow Ball actually is, with only Blissey being immune to it, and a few Ghost immunites such as Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, Weavile, and Assault Vest Bisharp.

The Steel-types: (:ferrothorn:, :corviknight:, and :heatran:)
I put them in one group but all of them have their defensive traits, with Ferrothorn checking a lot of common Pokemon and its ability to spread the worthful Spikes. Corviknight with being able to Defog and also a great check to dangerous Pokemon such as Rillaboom, Kartana, Landorus-T, and Garchomp. Heatran being able to check Tapu lele and Volcarona, while being able to setup entry hazards in form of Stealth Rock is also a worthful partner on many teams, it also offers itself as a great breaker with Toxic + magma Storm + Taunt sets being able to shut down Blissey, Slowking, and Slowbro makes it a great pick.

:Kartana:
Paper Plane, Paper Press, or Paper Cut, this Pokemon offers it all: While the Choice Scarf set isn't the best at the moment, its other two sets, Choice Band and Swords Dance offer a lot more on the table, as Kartana is a hard hitting breaker with both these sets. Choice Band is able to break through many weakened teams and 109 is a acceptable Speed tier to do so, Swords Dance is a great clener, with being able to tear through the opposition, so it should come off as no surprise, that Kartana will remain as a Pokemon to account for already in teambuilding.

:Urshifu:
From mediocre to a superstar, this is how i would describe this Pokemon the best, it is fantastic in the current metagame, offering momentum with U-turn and with Surging Strikes and Aqua Jet it has the perfect Water-type STAB moves to weaken most Pokemon severely. Close Combat rounds this Pokemon up well, and I am to the belief that we will see more of it in the near future, as it fits not only on rain teams but also on plenty of different bulky offense builds with great partners such as Tapu Koko, Kyurem, and Landorus-T.

Other good Pokemon in the metagame:
:Rillaboom: great in breaking past teams, with either a Choice Band set or Swords Dance variants. Great ability in Grassy Surge which lets it summon the Terrain to dish out hard hitting Grass-type Priority-STAB in Grassy Glide. Will remain as one of the top stars in SSOU.
:slowking: Great at granting slow momentum, one of the Pokemon, which can blanket check most special wallbreakers, such as Tapu Lele, Heatran, Nidoking, and Nidoking.
:Volcarona: This Pokemon is a no brainer, with the Quiver Dance set being able to bust through teams in the late game.
:dragonite: also another rising star not only in popularity but also in viability, great check to dangerous physical threats such as Rillaboom, Kartana, and Excadrill, and also Zeraora with a defensive set. Offensive also has its assets with Dragon Dance and Dual Wingbeat and recovery option in Roost to maintain Multiscale which get bolstered by Heavy-Duty Boots, as it perfectly cancels out Stealth Rock damage.
:Tapu lele: Choice Specs sets have barely any great switch-ins, with two great STAB moves in Psychic and Moonblast, complimented with Psyshock to help itself against Blissey and Focus Blast for Steel-types such as Heatran. Choice Specs Tapu Lele is in my eyes one of the best breakers currently.


Honorable mentions:
:Tornadus-Therian: :Bisharp:
:Garchomp: :kyurem:
:tapu Koko: :clefable:
:melmetal: :toxapex:

These Pokemon all have their amazing assets in the current metagame and can't be left out without being mentioned, as they offer a lot ofr their teammates and are ALWAYS Pokemon to watch out for, but also great to use on various archetypes.

This is all what I have to say about the usage stats and I feel it comes as no surprise why these Pokemon are ranked that high, not only is their ladder usage great, but also the tournament usage from these Pokemon speak for themselves.

I am excited to see what will wait for us in the future: and I hope you all have a great day and thx for reading! :)
 
gonna echo a common sentiment and say that dragapult feels fairly constricting in the builder rn. there aren’t many ghost switchins and it’s just so versatile in terms of sets that it can’t have one guaranteed switch in in the tier. this thing also gets u turn. not sure if it’s broken but it’s incredibly annoying to prepare for.

feel the same way about rillaboom, although it has to be careful against spamming knock against zapdos if no heal bell support (not too common rn on most teams). zone + rilla is super dangerous if you are lazy and slap on corviknight to say you’re good against rillaboom.

cool too see bisharp, weavile and to a lesser extent sd sciz and zappy-g on the come up
 
If I could snap my fingers I’d just ban Dragapult, Magma Storm and Volcorona. These three elements constrain building substantially more than anything else in the tier. I think Dragapult and Volcorona have been discussed ad nauseam so I’ll just touch on Magma Storm. We don’t have Gliscor, we don’t have Mega Latios, we don’t have Mega Alakazam (who was a softer check). We’re looking mostly at Slowking as the premiere switchin. You can run shed shell Pex but it’s not brain surgery to predict a switch against stall when you don’t see black sludge on pex. It’s just way, way too effective for a single move IMO. :puff:
 
If I could snap my fingers I’d just ban Dragapult, Magma Storm and Volcorona. These three elements constrain building substantially more than anything else in the tier. I think Dragapult and Volcorona have been discussed ad nauseam so I’ll just touch on Magma Storm. We don’t have Gliscor, we don’t have Mega Latios, we don’t have Mega Alakazam (who was a softer check). We’re looking mostly at Slowking as the premiere switchin. You can run shed shell Pex but it’s not brain surgery to predict a switch against stall when you don’t see black sludge on pex. It’s just way, way too effective for a single move IMO. :puff:
Well, Magma Storm can be exploited, it has 8 pp means that pressure users can drain it quick, there's also ghosts type who are immune to trap, and the 75% accuracy justs make it a nightmare to use it, yes it provides a lot of value but its exploitable and rng dependant, 8 pp and 75% accuracy isn't that good, if it have more accuracy I would say to ban but its accuracy isn't that good and its pp is so exploitable
 
Trapping moves require too much execution to be as uncompetitive (or broken) as wide-targetting Abilities like AT and ST. If you see a Heatran at preview, you've got some agency in what it hits with Magma Storm. This is far-removed from Teleporting into Dugtrio with a wall or pivot, where once the trapper is in, you're fucked. Making the call as to what eats Magma Storm can be shitty, but you at least get to make a call.

This is all without getting into Magma Storm's PP and accuracy, or abusable (through heavy resistance or Ability) typing.
 

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