Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3161)

A lot of the common arguments for banning dragapult are coming from the fact that it can just u turn on its checks. This argument seems to come up a lot when it comes to bannable mons. I guess what I’m saying is maybe the problem is U-turn? This move has been absurdly strong since its debut in gen 4 and now with the ability to run boots and the removal of pursuit it means that a u turn is unpunishable. Most mons will forego coverage just to run a base 70 power bug move, and most mons that have access to it will choose to run it. It’s probably the best pivot move because volt switch can be absorbed, flip turn can be absorbed, teleport can be taunted and needs bulky abusers. To say it’s a little overcentralizing is a bit of an understatement.
 
This right here is typical Smogon. When people complain about a move (Teleport, pivoting moves), item (HDB) or some defensive pivots played mostly on balance (Slowtwins) we don't address anything because it is too complex. So what do we do? We ban the best offensive pokemon in the tier to make ourselves happy for the next 2 weeks.
 
Dragapult is not a very balanced Pokemon. Compare it to the constraints of all the other pseudo legend bst 600s - it's head and shoulders above them. Insane speed, great mixed movepool, great typing, u-turn, decent bulk, utility moves, and two good abilities! I guess it doesn't have nasty plot or poltergeist but like, what more do you reasonably want? I want to caution that there is always some degree of unfair outrage aimed at any mixed attacker over the years but Dragapult is near flawless and reminds me of completely broken CAPs that are unrealistically good. I remember when Tapu Koko came out and I was just in awe that there was a usable offensive mon with mewtwo level speed, and here we are in Gen 8 with the king of OU running laps around Kokos speed tier.

Blame nintendo for deleting pursuit and making ghost too strong offensively but imo drag has gotta go.
Pult has the best typing and ofc absurd speed+u-turn is great, but if you compare it to the other pseudo legendaries it has the worst bulk and the movepool isn't even that great. lacks crucial ground and fighting coverage, physical sets struggle to find 4 usable moves, the only good ones are darts, u-turn and kinda sucker punch, that's literally it. the attacking stat that enjoys the largest movepool is a disappointing base 100. I disagree with the implication of what you've written: dragapult isn't broken by design, it just happens to be very good in this meta due to certain interactions.
It just feels broken now that many factors are aligning. this is the best generation to be a ghost type and we saw that with spectrier: that horse literally used two moves (shadow ball or hex) but exposed how badly Gen 8 is struggling when it comes to viability for ghost resists. steel no longer resisting it AND pursuit being gone are godsends for ghosts, especially already good ones like pult. whether or not pult is too much to handle right now, it's a prime abuser of gen 8 mechanics (ghost being amazing, slow bulky pivots, HDB) and countermeasures aren't nearly as simple as heatran countering volcarona till the end of time but that doesn't mean they don't exist; they are just more difficult. the discussion is here now and pult looks like the next one to risk the banhammer, but idk i just think it's very very good, not broken, and it's almost entirely due to how spammable ghost moves are in this gen
 
steel no longer resisting it
but exposed how badly Gen 8 is struggling when it comes to viability for ghost resists.
I use Marriland Teambuilder a lot as a supplementary tool, to see how my team matches up against certain typings ( and makes it easy to see what types of mons I might be weak to), and it's funny how often my teams ( and many teams I've seen) almost always have no ghost resist, and if you do it means you had to fit either Bisharp, Weavile, Hydreigon, Mandibuzz or Ttar on your team. But all these Overused, so-called Ghost resists have traits that can be exploited by Dragapult is the issue.
 
Pult has the best typing and ofc absurd speed+u-turn is great, but if you compare it to the other pseudo legendaries it has the worst bulk and the movepool isn't even that great. lacks crucial ground and fighting coverage, physical sets struggle to find 4 usable moves, the only good ones are darts, u-turn and kinda sucker punch, that's literally it. the attacking stat that enjoys the largest movepool is a disappointing base 100. I disagree with the implication of what you've written: dragapult isn't broken by design, it just happens to be very good in this meta due to certain interactions.
It just feels broken now that many factors are aligning. this is the best generation to be a ghost type and we saw that with spectrier: that horse literally used two moves (shadow ball or hex) but exposed how badly Gen 8 is struggling when it comes to viability for ghost resists. steel no longer resisting it AND pursuit being gone are godsends for ghosts, especially already good ones like pult. whether or not pult is too much to handle right now, it's a prime abuser of gen 8 mechanics (ghost being amazing, slow bulky pivots, HDB) and countermeasures aren't nearly as simple as heatran countering volcarona till the end of time but that doesn't mean they don't exist; they are just more difficult. the discussion is here now and pult looks like the next one to risk the banhammer, but idk i just think it's very very good, not broken, and it's almost entirely due to how spammable ghost moves are in this gen
I can absolutely understand that Dragapult's prominence in this gen is largely due to how free Ghosts are to dominate with Pursuit being gone and having only one type that resists its stab (not counting Normal's immunity). However, that's not to say Dragapult is only dominating because of its ghost typing; in fact, I'd like to say Dragapult's popularity really stems from the combination of that and the prominence of U-turn.

The reason there wasn't ever preparation for a Pokemon like Dragapult to be in the meta is because the only other Ghost Pokemon to ever get U-turn was Decidueye, who didn't really ever stick out as a threat thanks to its low speed. Dragapult's stat spread forces out every non scarfer offensive Pokemon in the game, bar the few Pokemon like Bisharp, Tapu Koko and friends. Shadow Ball can almost always be clicked without thinking, as there's only two types that would want to switch in on it (and not every Pokemon from those types want to be near Pult anyways). Having access to a move like U-turn... well, if you force a threat out into, say, Blissey, you can endlessly get that same U-turn chip quite often throughout the match, since there's no other mon on your opponent's team that wants to risk taking a Draco Meteor or a Shadow Ball. Not only does this burn through Blissey's Soft-Boiled PP for what seems to be no cost, it doesn't give Blissey the opportunity to push the damage off until much later, sometimes even causing Blissey to stay in on physical threats hoping that they click U-turn too, just so they can keep dealing with Dragapult. It becomes very hard for Pokemon like Blissey and Mandibuzz to stay healthy when they have to constantly take those U-turns.

And, more specifically, any Dark type that doesn't have the right secondary typing can't usually deal with Dragapult's U-turns well at all.

I'd argue U-turn is Dragapult's best move on a Choice Specs set, simply because it bothers the Pokemon that want to switch into its STAB attacks quite a bit, and overall turns the Pokemon into the unwallable beast it seems to be to everyone.
 

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This right here is typical Smogon. When people complain about a move (Teleport, pivoting moves), item (HDB) or some defensive pivots played mostly on balance (Slowtwins) we don't address anything because it is too complex. So what do we do? We ban the best offensive pokemon in the tier to make ourselves happy for the next 2 weeks.
This is silly. Smogon's community absolutely has some less than ideal tendencies and perceptions when it comes to tiering -- I will be the first guy to agree and even point them out, but what you have outlined is not in-line with reality whatsoever.

The only time we "ban the best offensive Pokemon in the tier" is when there is community wide outrage about them. This generation this has been things like Dracovish, Magearna, Zygarde, etc. that are clearly broken standalone, not due to support. Urshifu-S and Cinderace are the only two Pokemon you can argue support improved and applying that argument to the former is poor.

There has never been a consensus that Boots is broken and Teleport has never been particularly close. We still have open discussions on both, too, and intend to continue this. And neither of these are because of complexity -- it would be a straight ban of the move or item (or the Pokemon abusing them in the case of Clefable earlier this generation, Cinderace recently, and potentially Slowtwins moving forward). This is the exact opposite of things being too complex.

Do not try to diagnose problems that do not exist. There are genuine issues to have and then there is making something out of nothing. This is the latter.
 
:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:
Was going to nom moistshifu to A+ but VR got locked so I'll talk about why it's so good here instead. This mon has been one of my favorite breakers for a while, so I'm glad to see it getting the recognition and usage it deserves, being #2 in WCOP, being on roughly 1/3 of teams. The metagame has been trending to Slowking as the primary fat water regen mon on a lot of teams, which moistshifu takes advantage of by dealing huge damage with u-turn. It also does extremely well vs weavile and bisharp, acting as a solid switch in and revenge killer to both of these. It's also a great check to Heatran, one of the most overrated but also most vocally complained about OU mon. We can see the effect moistshifu has on the metagame as a lot of teams are being forced to run rocky helmet on Corviknight as a means to punish it, as well as an uptick of rocky helmet on Toxapex. In general, the metagame is really trending towards strong breakers with u-turn and moistshifu fits into this frame perfectly.

Also in terms of all the tiering talk that's been going on recently I think we should quickban volcarona and king's rock, and suspect dragapult and teleport a bit down the line. Can elaborate if anyone wants me to but that's what I believe is best for the tier.
 
:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:
Was going to nom moistshifu to A+ but VR got locked so I'll talk about why it's so good here instead. This mon has been one of my favorite breakers for a while, so I'm glad to see it getting the recognition and usage it deserves, being #2 in WCOP, being on roughly 1/3 of teams. The metagame has been trending to Slowking as the primary fat water regen mon on a lot of teams, which moistshifu takes advantage of by dealing huge damage with u-turn. It also does extremely well vs weavile and bisharp, acting as a solid switch in and revenge killer to both of these. It's also a great check to Heatran, one of the most overrated but also most vocally complained about OU mon. We can see the effect moistshifu has on the metagame as a lot of teams are being forced to run rocky helmet on Corviknight as a means to punish it, as well as an uptick of rocky helmet on Toxapex. In general, the metagame is really trending towards strong breakers with u-turn and moistshifu fits into this frame perfectly.

Also in terms of all the tiering talk that's been going on recently I think we should quickban volcarona and king's rock, and suspect dragapult and teleport a bit down the line. Can elaborate if anyone wants me to but that's what I believe is best for the tier.
Yeah, Urshifu-RS is pretty great, especially in a Zamazenta-less metagame. Haven't had much success with CB on the ladder (thought tbf the last time I used this set was when Zamzenta-C was being tested and Rocky Helmet & Stall teams were everywhere), but Protective Pads sets have been really fun to use. The power cut from CB is pretty noticeable, but being able to switch moves really helps vs some slower switch-ins that might try exploiting you being locked to CC like Tapu Lele, Landorus-Therian, etc. Speaking of Landorus-Therian, Urshifu's ability to outspeed and OHKO Landorus-T through Focus Sash has made it a pretty solid anti-lead from my experience. Its speed tier in general is pretty good, letting it get the jump on a other offensive juggernauts like Tapu Lele and Kyurem & OHKO them before they're able to do anything. And having Aqua Jet to revenge kill Volcarona is always useful.
 
In gen 8 OU there is effectively only one prominent user of King's Rock which is Cloyster :cloyster:. Everyone who wants KR banned should just nut up and call for a Cloyster suspect test.

Every other KR user is either crap (:cinccino:) or uses the item so infrequently (:weavile: is a distant 2nd place, :excadrill: had a blip of usage during March and not even :bisharp: has >=1% KR usage) that it both begs the question of 1. why is nobody abusing this item on any of the above mons? and 2. makes talking about these users of KR irrelevant unless someone wants to spend the next month(s) actively proving me wrong.

As far as I can tell items that see similar usage are largely considered irrelevant to their viability -- WP Dragapult, banded lando, lum Chomp, specs Heatran, Grassy Seed Rillaboom (and many other countless examples) just combing through stats are what I deem as comparable to KR Weavile. Would Weavile's viability not drop if it were locked into using King's Rock?
 
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ausma

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:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:
Was going to nom moistshifu to A+ but VR got locked so I'll talk about why it's so good here instead. This mon has been one of my favorite breakers for a while, so I'm glad to see it getting the recognition and usage it deserves, being #2 in WCOP, being on roughly 1/3 of teams. The metagame has been trending to Slowking as the primary fat water regen mon on a lot of teams, which moistshifu takes advantage of by dealing huge damage with u-turn. It also does extremely well vs weavile and bisharp, acting as a solid switch in and revenge killer to both of these. It's also a great check to Heatran, one of the most overrated but also most vocally complained about OU mon. We can see the effect moistshifu has on the metagame as a lot of teams are being forced to run rocky helmet on Corviknight as a means to punish it, as well as an uptick of rocky helmet on Toxapex. In general, the metagame is really trending towards strong breakers with u-turn and moistshifu fits into this frame perfectly.

Also in terms of all the tiering talk that's been going on recently I think we should quickban volcarona and king's rock, and suspect dragapult and teleport a bit down the line. Can elaborate if anyone wants me to but that's what I believe is best for the tier.
I definitely see Urshifu-R as one of the most underrated threats in the current metagame. It is one of the most difficult Pokemon to reliably swap into, and its access of U-turn to gain momentum on a wide range of Pokemon that can switch into its STAB combination reliably throughout the course of a game makes it really easy to form really dangerous cores with Pokemon like Slowking, Weavile or Bisharp to enforce some easy, brutalizing progress with. I also think Urshifu-R really loves and fully capitalizes on current metagame trends; Toxapex is mostly running SpDef to keep Dragapult in check, Slowking is the superior Slowtwin right now and is considerably less bulky on the physical side, and Amoonguss and Tangrowth are incredibly exploitable Pokemon that can easily be hit with U-turn and can easily become momentum fodder to some pretty scary wallbreakers like Hydreigon or Kyurem in the current metagame.

About Teleport (and friends)

I personally cannot get myself to subscribe to a Teleport suspect test given my stance on how it's a move that inherently comes with an opportunity cost on any non-Slowtwin Pokemon. The other two viable Teleport users--Clefable and Blissey--rely on being healthy to keep their targeted Pokemon in check, and Teleport essentially means that guaranteed momentum comes at the cost of potentially key chip damage against major defensive proponents unless you manage to force a switch, and even if you don't, sometimes pigeonholing yourself into Teleport expecting a switch can force the Teleport user into a poor position and take additional damage for no reason. I feel like the issue isn't any component centralizing around Futureport and more the whole package of Regenerator + Teleport which only the Slowtwins have access to. The fact they are able to heal and pivot simultaneously completely removes Teleport's opportunity cost outside of Taunt.

While on the subject, Regenerator + Heavy-Duty Boots is something I'm much more finicky on as a whole. I believe a lot of fingers are being pointed toward different individual components of the metagame being broken, but sadly I feel it's kind of a combination of things, which really conflicts with tiering philosophy regarding complex bans and is why I feel the best, cleanest step in this regard is to eye the Slowtwins first. Regardless, we still need time to see how the metagame adapts and develops over the course of WCoP to see if anything we once deemed to be problematic grows to be less of an issue, or if a key issue becomes blatantly obvious.

About Volcarona

I think Volcarona is a Pokemon that needs much closer evaluation to really determine if it's inherently problematic, but I'm certainly welcome to explore the idea of a suspect; however, as it stands, I heavily disagree with the idea of quickbanning it as it has been a component of the metagame for a while, and the degree of its impact as a win condition has only been realized recently. Though, all things considered, it is an incredibly fearsome win condition; in fact, one of the best in the tier, if not the best. The role compression on its Bulky Quiver Dance set is actually crazy as a check to most Melmetal variants, Kyurem, and Rillaboom while also serving as an incredibly versatile, customizable win condition at the same time. It's something that makes me question the whole "matchup fish" ideology that Volcarona has lived by for a long time now, as unlike most Volcarona variants of the past, it has the ability to actually provide utility for its team with Heavy-Duty Boots to give it many more switch-in opportunities, and more importantly, invite direct pressure against its checks with a lasting, active presence on the field.

About King's Rock

King's Rock I fully agree with as it provides literally nothing productive to the metagame other than weighted dice rolls at its core. I don't really have much else to add here that hasn't been said already; I would love to get it--and potentially other RNG-centric mechanics that we can feasibly clause--gone.

In gen 8 OU there is effectively only one prominent user of King's Rock which is Cloyster :cloyster:. Everyone who wants KR banned should just nut up and call for a Cloyster suspect test.

Every other KR user is either crap (:cinccino:) or uses the item so infrequently (:weavile: is a distant 2nd place, :excadrill: had a blip of usage during March and not even :bisharp: has >=1% KR usage) that it both begs the question of 1. why is nobody abusing this item on any of the above mons? and 2. makes talking about these users of KR irrelevant unless someone wants to spend the next month(s) actively proving me wrong.

As far as I can tell items that see similar usage are largely considered irrelevant to their viability -- WP Dragapult, banded lando, lum Chomp, specs Heatran, Grassy Seed Rillaboom (and many other countless examples) just combing through stats are what I deem as comparable to KR Weavile. Would Weavile's viability not drop if it were locked into using King's Rock?
While on the subject, this post also mainly misses the point of people's complaints with King's Rock (and other RNG mechanics for that matter); the main argument behind it is not really that it in of itself is actually good and more that the abusers either completely seize games by what's essentially sheer luck or dies. Nobody is disagreeing that Cloyster is the only actually good one, but the thing is that's not the point. What is the point is if it's competitive or healthy as a whole, not if it's actually a centralizing, metagame defining item. People have discussed the ban of Quick Claw and/or Quick Draw for the same reason; not that they're good, but because they downplay the progress, advantages, and positioning-based aspects of a battle and instead turn it into an RNG simulation. While a more extreme comparison, you get the idea--not fun.

About Dragapult

I'm completely welcome to the idea of a closer look at Dragapult as it is a Pokemon that completely dominates numerous archetypes and is not only the strongest enabler in the metagame but is also able to be enabled itself to a pretty frightening extent from the aid of wallbreakers with shared checks (which, there are quite a few). Though, in spite of its power, it has some pretty major caveats like its Special Attack, lack of longevity, and proneness to residual damage. I personally am not sure how I feel about Dragapult as of yet, but I'm going to be keeping a closer eye on it in the coming weeks to better evaluate its impact on the metagame.
 
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so
here’s a mid ladder person’s thoughts on :dragapult:.

this thing is fucking nuts. it’s almost like gen 3 deo-a where you have to assume band (specs in pult’s case), but then it whips out the substitute and you’re screwed.

I’ve been running around with Rillazone offense and Rillazone defense.

Both of these teams have at least one form of stop gap to pult in the form of Clefable; on the offensive team it’s a defensive stealth rock variation which can KO with some prior chip, and on the defensive team it’s an offensive life orb one which can immediately grab a KO.

However, it usually isn’t enough. Shadow Ball SpDef drops end any hope of me winning the 1v1 and u-turn is an issue, although on both teams there are at least 4 resists. I’m unsure on if it’s just because the teams are weak to pult, but I’m pretty sure they can stave off the metagame.

The people here are saying that Blissey is the best form of counterplay, but what if it clicks Substitute as I switch in? Life Orb darts at +1 can do up to 90% as I break the sub with Ice Beam/Shadow Ball.

This thing has a variety of sets you have to worry about in the teambuilder, and in play, you have to be really careful to not let it in, and when it is in, you have to hope it doesn’t u-turn or do something unexpected.

I personally think that Dragapult restricts the teambuilder to force you to run stuff like Clefable and 252/252+ Ttar and in game, where you have to go to your specs check until it clicks substitute. It may not seem broken on the levels of Urshifu and DD Kyurem-Black, but this is why we have suspect tests.

Suspect Dragapult.
 
So I decided to mess around and made a Veil Team with a Brightpowder Snow Cloak Glaceon. Dodged two Close Combats.
Bright powder and Evasion boosting abilities should be banned Smogon-wide.
As for Dragapult, I love that a base 100 SpAttk (only) choiced pokemon is so ubiquitously hated. But I'm pro-ban, because if the dragon goes, gengar (probably?) gets better?
I get that Dragapult has more than one set and blah blah usual stuff, but someone did make a good point:
when was the last time a defensive mon was banned? Like at all? Does Magearna count?
Like there are 10 banned pokemon this generation, and all of them are Offensive breakers that were "Too Much For the Tier."
But the same fat or fatter mons are always going to be used.
So I think it's just a good idea to ask it once again, in the wise words of Gilbert Gottfried "When are you gonna ban Toxapex?"

I definitely think that it's a reasonable idea to suspect dragapult at some point, just not sure what the priority should be right now.
 
So I decided to mess around and made a Veil Team with a Brightpowder Snow Cloak Glaceon. Dodged two Close Combats.
Bright powder and Evasion boosting abilities should be banned Smogon-wide.
As for Dragapult, I love that a base 100 SpAttk (only) choiced pokemon is so ubiquitously hated. But I'm pro-ban, because if the dragon goes, gengar (probably?) gets better?
I get that Dragapult has more than one set and blah blah usual stuff, but someone did make a good point:
when was the last time a defensive mon was banned? Like at all? Does Magearna count?
Like there are 10 banned pokemon this generation, and all of them are Offensive breakers that were "Too Much For the Tier."
But the same fat or fatter mons are always going to be used.
So I think it's just a good idea to ask it once again, in the wise words of Gilbert Gottfried "When are you gonna ban Toxapex?"

I definitely think that it's a reasonable idea to suspect dragapult at some point, just not sure what the priority should be right now.
First off, I'll go ahead and agree with the banning Bright Powder/Evasion Veil movement. There's pretty much no reason for them to be here in this meta, and all they do is cause problems nobody wants to deal with.

I want to comment on the whole, "There's been no defensive Pokemon ban," thing though.

To try avoiding arguments, I'll ask this first: What defensive Pokemon in OU is unhealthy for the meta, at the moment?
It's hard to pinpoint where the broken parts of defensive Pokemon arise from. Arguably, the best quality for a defensive Pokemon to have at the moment is Regenerator, which is one of if not the best abilities in the game. Almost every Pokemon that has access to regenerator will use the ability, besides the few who like to use different ones such as Reuniclus and such. You can make a similar point with Magic Guard, though the distribution for that ability isn't as generous.
The biggest argument right now is on the Slowtwins, but I'll let someone else talk about that point rather than me. I don't have much of an opinion on it.
However, there are definitely staple defensive Pokemon that don't have Regenerator. Heatran, Corviknight and Blissey are great examples. Each have an ability that allows the Pokemon to fill a specific role, rather than just "another switchin that only wants to switch out".
So, what's the difference between these great Pokemon and the ones that have been banned?
There's always been more than a couple of different Pokemon in OU that can deal with each one, assuming they're placed on a well-built team.
Things like Magearna, Spectrier and Pheromosa ripped through the metagame because nobody knew how to stop their offensive presence in full.

Most of the offensive Pokemon that have been banned have an astonishingly good set, along with a series of other sets that can't be dealt with the same way the first can. An example would be how Choice Specs Magearna didn't enjoy being face to face with Blissey, but Blissey in turn didn't enjoy switching into a Magearna just for them to Shift Gear. Especially if the Blissey has Toxic over Thunder Wave.
Meanwhile, a Pokemon like Toxapex has to deal with Slowtwins Future Sight making them unable to switch in, having to run Haze on almost every set to save teams from certain doom with setup, having multiple OU Pokemon answers such as Garchomp, Tapu Lele and others, etcetera.
It's hard to come up with an arguable reason to ban a defensive Pokemon unless it's actively harming good teambuilding/doesn't have a reliable OU answer. There are other reasons for a ban on a defensive Pokemon, but in my opinion, none of those other reasons have been reached yet.

___________

Briefly on the topic of Dragapult, I'd be welcome to a suspect, more or less to see what it would result in. I'm still in dispute whether to ban it or not, but I'm definitely leading towards ban if a suspect does happen.
 
Would it possibly be a good idea to make a separate thread for ban/suspect discussion? When I first started following the forums again earlier in this gen it seemed that most, or at least a lot, of the discussion in this thread was general metagame stuff, with a bit of ban discussion, but as time has went on this thread has seemingly become almost entirely ban discussion with very little discussion of any other aspects of the metagame. I used to enjoy reading this thread to look for interesting sets, teams, strategies, etc, relevant to the current metagame, but it seems like its been a while since I checked this forum and found hardly any discussion besides people arguing about what they think needs banned/suspected the most.
 
when was the last time a defensive mon was banned? Like at all? Does Magearna count?
Like there are 10 banned pokemon this generation, and all of them are Offensive breakers that were "Too Much For the Tier."
But the same fat or fatter mons are always going to be used.
So I think it's just a good idea to ask it once again, in the wise words of Gilbert Gottfried "When are you gonna ban Toxapex?"

I definitely think that it's a reasonable idea to suspect dragapult at some point, just not sure what the priority should be right now.
The bar for being a good defensive Pokemon is so much higher than being a good offensive Pokemon. You need at least two of great bulk, a great typing and a form of recovery. The latter of which is uncommon compared to nearly every Pokemon having high-BP STABs and boosting moves. Offensive Pokemon are a dime a dozen, it's not a huge deal when one or two or 10 end up in a higher tier. A good defensive Pokemon is too rare to be replaceable, and the metagame is generally worse when one leaves. Blame Game Freak.
 
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Finchinator

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Would it possibly be a good idea to make a separate thread for ban/suspect discussion? When I first started following the forums again earlier in this gen it seemed that most, or at least a lot, of the discussion in this thread was general metagame stuff, with a bit of ban discussion, but as time has went on this thread has seemingly become almost entirely ban discussion with very little discussion of any other aspects of the metagame. I used to enjoy reading this thread to look for interesting sets, teams, strategies, etc, relevant to the current metagame, but it seems like its been a while since I checked this forum and found hardly any discussion besides people arguing about what they think needs banned/suspected the most.
Initially, discussion of suspects and bans was prohibited in this thread. I opened it up to discussion of potential suspects and bans as part of my initiative to have the council be more transparent and also to be more receptive to community feedback, which was ultimately followed-up by the series of surveys we have had. I feel that this has been a big success thus far, but it is very true that one of the drawbacks has been the previous niche of this thread being diminished.

A solution could be as follows: In the coming weeks/months, we plan on opening a thread for council minutes -- the main purpose of this thread would be to discuss council happenings and give people an idea as to what is being discussed. I would not be opposed to opening a thread to discuss that and other potential suspects/bans, which could also give the council specific talking points for discussions. However I need to run that idea by both the moderators and the council at the appropriate point in time. I have not done so yet as this is the first it is coming up anywhere, but I have no issue going out of my way to do so.

Of course, if this type of thread were to exist, it could not just be a general "ban/suspect discussion", but rather one that was structured as otherwise we would have a half dozen different topics that may overlap or contradict each other attempting to coexist within one thread. However, if properly implemented and executed, the idea has promise and can connect with our initiative. And if it is not in the cards, then the alternative would be to keep this thread for more suspect/ban geared metagame discussion and to open up a secondary thread for discussion of trendy teams, strategies, sets, and so on. No matter which way we go, I do want to address the core of your request and greatly appreciate your post!
 
As someone who is a relative n00b in terms of competitive battling, it seems like the desire to "ban" Pokemon (or items in the case of HDB) is downright laziness. Pokemon should only be "banned" for being outright broken. Unless you're going to do a relegation-like situation. For example, Dragapult is one of the better 'mons in OU, but it's easily by Clefable, Chansey, Blissey, etc. which are relatively common in OU.
 
Since suspect discussion seems to be the go to atm I thought I'd add my two cent's for whatever that's worth.

Dragapult - I honestly dont see it as broken atleast not in the same vain as the ghost horse who could snowball and render everyone of its supposed ou viable switch ins as bait save for zarude, shadow ball blissey and rest t-tar. Dragapult is instead a victim of poor planning by gamefreak in regards to pursuits removal on the same vain knock off is now freely spamed due to lack of megas. Dragapult is only as influenctial as it is because we just cant punish it without restorting to wigglytuf or umbreon who have little use in modern ou otherwise.

The question in my view we should be asking is weather or not we just accept ghost in the new dragon spam? because i garantee gengar or aegisslash would replace Dragapult if its banned!.

Would i vote for a ban? Probably yes but only because ghost is hard to check right now.

While there's a shot megas may come in future dlc I'm not holding my breath for pursuit.

HDB - Outright against banning it. Its part of this gens identity, gives more counterplay to hazards and has let numourous pokemon that were previously unviable into the tier. To many net positives. I do acknowledge tho multiple boot's is problematic due to pivoting. On that note i would support a HDB clause or even a test for an item clause but that's against Smogon policy. One thing i do believe definately should happen tho is.

Volcarona - This pokemon was trouble even before boots but hazards kept it in check. Now you need AV T-Tar, CB azu or heatran not auto lose if its running an odd set due to boot's. Yeah you can yell boots at me all day but volcarona has always been borderline broken due to its combo of typing, quiver dance and power. HDB and lack of megas have just pulled away the curtain.

Anyway that's my view's. Probably not worth much but just wanted to contribute. I am enjoying the current meta tho and if it were up to me I'd delay any test's since i dont think we need it aside from maybe volcarona
 
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As someone who is a relative n00b in terms of competitive battling, it seems like the desire to "ban" Pokemon (or items in the case of HDB) is downright laziness. Pokemon should only be "banned" for being outright broken. Unless you're going to do a relegation-like situation. For example, Dragapult is one of the better 'mons in OU, but it's easily by Clefable, Chansey, Blissey, etc. which are relatively common in OU.
Many Pokémon are banned because their presence in the metagame leads to overcentralization. For example, back in the Dracovish days, Vaporeon pretty much shut down anything it wanted to achieve. But running Vaporeon was useless against most teams without it. I'm not sure whether I'm sold on Dragapult at the moment, but its incredible speed tier does considerably restrict offensive counterplay in the late game. I think the main things holding it back are its underwhelming offensive stats. BTW Blissey and Chansey are easily destroyed by physical sets and Chansey is terrible anyway. Clefable is a much better check but can be put on the back foot in some matchup if it isn't at full health and needs to switch into it. I think there may be decent enough counterplay which would involve trying to bait it in and KO it early game before it can clean up, but I'm really on the fence and could go either way on that one.
 
As someone who is a relative n00b in terms of competitive battling, it seems like the desire to "ban" Pokemon (or items in the case of HDB) is downright laziness. Pokemon should only be "banned" for being outright broken. Unless you're going to do a relegation-like situation. For example, Dragapult is one of the better 'mons in OU, but it's easily by Clefable, Chansey, Blissey, etc. which are relatively common in OU.
A Pokemon or item being outright broken isn't the only condition for something to be banned. Dragapult for example, isn't stupid broken like some other OU bans we've seen such as Urshifu-S or Magearna. However we must look at the affects Dragapult creates on the metagame and see if it's unhealthy. As it stands now, Dragapult creates immense amount of pressure in the teambuilder due to it's oppressive choice specs set as well as the physical sets you have to watch for which limit its counters greatly. Just saying Dragapult has counters isn't practical enough on its own to use to as an argument. Speaking of his counters though, I wouldn't consider either of them true counters. If you bring in Blissey and it turns out the Dragapult was a physical set, it gets a free Substitute or Dragon Dance which will allow it to get immense pressure from that play. From there Dragapult only needs some minimal for +1 Dragon Darts to kill. Clefable on the other hand gets worn down easily if it doesn't have enough SPD, and an unfortunate SPD drop from Shadow Ball can lead to a free KO on the Clefable. All this while not mentioning that Dragapult can click U-turn for free on either of these threats. His insane speed along with the power of Choice Specs allow Dragapult to force out almost anything it comes in on, and in return get a free U-turn on whatever you try to bring in on him.

I understand how it can seem stupid to ban things that aren't outright broken, but to say it's lazy is a little unfair. Players simply want to create a metagame that is both fun and competitive. I hope my paragraph at least shed a little light on why Dragapult can be problematic, and I definitely think a suspect test should come for him in the near future.
 
As versatile and powerful as Dragapult is, I can't really see it being banned as a better outcome. The "hey, it promotes diversity" argument doesn't work that well for mons, cause if we banned 'pult, something is gonna come out to take its place. The argument about Dracovish and counters is a good one to be fair, but the mons that check 'pult have a use outside of just checking 'pult. And yeah, the reason why this thing is so powerful has a lot to do with a lack of foresight in terms of removing pursuit, or maybe this was the goal. Either way, Dragapult is powerful yeah, and extremely versatile, but it has checks and counters and things that can revenge it, such as Kartana, but most importantly the counters and checks it have are versatile mons that aren't useless if that opponent forgoes a Dragapult.
 

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