Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3161)

Finchinator

You’re so golden
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Can you tell us what 3-4 items and 3-5 sets you're talking about? I could be wrong but I don't think there's any one pokemon OU (or even good mons below UU) that can deal with both the specs and dragon dance pult sets.
For starters, Mandibuzz, Clefable, and Toxapex can at very least check both sets with their most common variants barring Shadow Ball drops or crits. But beyond this, any argument about Dragapult being a problem should not stem from this at all.

It is incredibly easy to decipher if Dragapult is DD or not from team preview. DD is super uncommon to begin with and only has any viability on more offensive teams, particularly on hyper offense. And on hyper offense, you seldom see specs Dragapult as locking into the wrong move (or even the right one after a fodder) can lead to a huge problem as a free turn is suddenly opened up for the opponent, which HO struggles to deal with.

If you struggle to decipher Dragapult sets at preview (beyond boots status vs specs, which have a massive amount of overlap and you can even figure out some of the time) when talking about DD vs specially based, that’s absolutely on you as a player. If you struggle against DD Dragapult in general, a set that has been subpar and uncommon for months, then that’s far more on teambuilding issues than it is anything else. There are a myriad of viable checks and counters.

Choice Specs Dragapult is a menace and I understand frustrations about it, but the versatility card is being misapplied here and other sets simply do not belong in the same discussion.
 

TailGlowVM

I didn't get where I am today without a Manaphy
is a Pre-Contributor
On a more interesting topic than the constant debate about Dragapult, I decided to do an analysis of some WCoP trends.

:ss/landorus_therian:
1. Specially Defensive Landorus-T
If you look at the VR, you'll see most of the main physical attackers in this meta can potentially beat Landorus-T - Urshifu and Bisharp effectively ignore Intimidate, Weavile is Ice-type, Rillaboom, Kartana and Melmetal hit too hard for it to check them, Dragonite and offensive Landorus-T both can just use it as setup fodder. Lando is only really reliable against Zeraora. Being the ultimate utility belt/glue mon, of course people wouldn't just stop using it - instead they switched to specially defensive spreads, which are more reliable than physical defense against Dracozolt and Tapu Koko and check Volcarona and Heatran, while still checking Zeraora.

:ss/dragonite:
2. Dragonite
Not particularly new as a whole, but Dragonite is one of the very few reliable answers to Volcarona and Heatran, while also being able to handle Rillaboom, Urshifu and Kartana. Defensive Dragon Dance sets are a more recent adaptation that preserves most of Dragonite's defensive utility while making it much less passive than the previous utility sets and able to be a fantastic win condition.

:ss/weavile:
3. Weavile
Is this the greatest rise in OU history? Back in the Magearna meta, we had it all the way down in C rank, and it steadily crept upward once more people saw what it could do and now looks like an A+ premier threat. It thrives in a metagame where all the Dark-resists hate losing their items (Tapu Fini, Urshifu, Tyranitar, Bisharp) or are extremely susceptible to its strong Ice moves (Mandibuzz, Clefable, Hydreigon, Tapu Bulu). The rise of Tapu Fini is likely related to Weavile's surge as well.

:ss/urshifu_rapid_strike:
4. Urshifu Rapid-Strike
In a metagame where its Dark brother is banned, Slowbro is near irrelevant, and Slowking is the best Water-type, the "bad Shifu" suddenly becomes a top 10 Pokemon. Probably a large reason why Toxapex is rising up again, and Corviknight is using Rocky Helmet more. It definitely does have plenty of checks (Pex, Dragonite, Tangrowth, Tapu Fini, Slowbro if we start using it again) and as some of these Pokemon become more common, it may not stay so dominant forever. I can't seem to make a team with Slowking that isn't vulnerable to it though.

:ss/buzzwole:
5. Buzzwole
Looks like Finchinator predicted correctly again, as Buzzwole is returning to serious usage once more. It's one of the best checks to our dominant Ground, Grass and Dark-types, and avoids the passivity or poor longevity that the other options to do this tend to be plagued with. Its biggest problem in my opinion is four-moveslot syndrome - Close Combat, Ice Punch and Roost are mandatory, but you are walled by Clefable and Tapu Fini without Poison Jab, Toxapex without Earthquake, and let Volcarona in for free without Stone Edge.

:ss/mew:
6. Mew
Mew is yet another Pokemon that capitalises on Slowking's dominance (and also our lack of Spikes setters.) Both utility and the less consistent Cosmic Power sets have been seeing considerable usage. Unfortunately it doesn't really wall anything, which is a huge problem for a metagame with so much stuff to cover like this one.

:ss/tapu_bulu:
7. Tapu Bulu
Tapu Bulu has no defensive answer except Tangrowth, Buzzwole, or the near-unviable Aegislash and Amoonguss, so it was inevitable people would start running it eventually. It overpowers pretty much all of the good Rillaboom and Kartana checks with its great coverage. Unfortunately this comes at the cost of being extremely easy to force out with its weaknesses and bad speed tier, not switching into much (Banded Urshifu 2HKOes after rocks, it really isn't a Chomp switch-in) and stiff competition from our other Grass wallbreakers limits it to a pretty narrow niche (have to run SD over Band, usually need to be Jolly to outspeed Zapdos and Timid Heatran, it has coverage to hit Tangrowth and Buzzwole but can't afford to run it) leaving it still a somewhat fringe pick, albeit one that can be extremely threatening under certain circumstances.
 
Just a completely wild thought:
Has anyone experimented with Unburden as an answer to Knock Off spam? Does that work the way I want it to?
Just thinking that Hawlucha resists dark and could maybe catch a solid boost off the switch, and maybe cause some chaos?
Also, thanks so much for that top 7! It makes me really happy to see Weavile finally shining in OU. It's one of my top 3 favorite pokemon of all time (Right behind Gengar and Altaria. #BanPultFreeGengar)
 
Just a completely wild thought:
Has anyone experimented with Unburden as an answer to Knock Off spam? Does that work the way I want it to?
Just thinking that Hawlucha resists dark and could maybe catch a solid boost off the switch, and maybe cause some chaos?
Also, thanks so much for that top 7! It makes me really happy to see Weavile finally shining in OU. It's one of my top 3 favorite pokemon of all time (Right behind Gengar and Altaria. #BanPultFreeGengar)
I think one problem with this is that unburden is only one time use. If it gets knocked off, you're basically playing with no ability the next time you switchin. If you play bulky Lucha though, maybe it can work? It has some fun moves like Taunt and Roost so maybe?
 
Just a completely wild thought:
Has anyone experimented with Unburden as an answer to Knock Off spam? Does that work the way I want it to?
Just thinking that Hawlucha resists dark and could maybe catch a solid boost off the switch, and maybe cause some chaos?
Also, thanks so much for that top 7! It makes me really happy to see Weavile finally shining in OU. It's one of my top 3 favorite pokemon of all time (Right behind Gengar and Altaria. #BanPultFreeGengar)
I think one problem with this is that unburden is only one time use. If it gets knocked off, you're basically playing with no ability the next time you switchin. If you play bulky Lucha though, maybe it can work? It has some fun moves like Taunt and Roost so maybe?
Exactly. There is no unburden Pokémon that can feasibly work like that in the current OU and in general due to what's already been said. Hawlucha has a decent defensive typing but has very low bulk and would rather have either of its other abilities if using that set. Barring Weavile, it could theoretically check the other major Knock Off users like Bisharp, Kartana and Rillaboom, though there are much better Pokémon for these - like Buzzwole, Skarmory and Corviknight. A funky "bulky" Hawlucha is something you could have some fun with, but not with the Unburden-Knock Off interaction.
 
Just a completely wild thought:
Has anyone experimented with Unburden as an answer to Knock Off spam? Does that work the way I want it to?
Just thinking that Hawlucha resists dark and could maybe catch a solid boost off the switch, and maybe cause some chaos?
Also, thanks so much for that top 7! It makes me really happy to see Weavile finally shining in OU. It's one of my top 3 favorite pokemon of all time (Right behind Gengar and Altaria. #BanPultFreeGengar)
Eh, it probably wouldn't work out too well for Lucha. Hawlucha works best as a late-game cleaner since Unburden + Seed is a one-time boost, especially because by then the enemy team should be weakened (if you know what you're doing). Hawlucha can certainly be threatening once it gets to +2, but its role and underwhelming bulk make the idea you propose inconsistent in practice. Looking at another mon you mention, Weavile, for instance, Knock Off into Ice Shard from neutral Boots vs standard Lucha set does a minimum of 85% (lowest possible roll on both), meaning Lucha can't actually hard switch into Weavile and can't afford to set up in front of it, which is very exploitable for the opponent. Yeah, Lucha can avoid the 2HKO from Shard with the right Seed activation (vs neutral), but it does not switch into Knock Off raw. Prediction is also a hassle; besides Weavile's Ice STAB, sans-Def boost Lucha also doesn't love eating Iron Head from Bisharp (Iron Head + Sucker guaranteed KOs after Rocks), RillaBand 2HKOs with Wood Hammer while not getting KOed by neutral base Acrobatics, Kartana's Smart Strike can OHKO off Banded or safely 2HKO off Scarf, and switching into Zeraora is definitely out of the question. Basically, Lucha can't afford to come in on any of the offensive Knock users; as Copyer said, a bulkier set might be able to pull this off, but bulky isn't what Lucha does best. Even if you get the Seed boost first, popping off Lucha early is a ticket for fairly underwhelming results as long as your opponent knows what they're doing.
 

TailGlowVM

I didn't get where I am today without a Manaphy
is a Pre-Contributor
Oh god, to think excadrill could drop to uu though, if hippo or ttar drop to uu, yeah excadrill is basically a guaranteed bl knight
I don't think Tyranitar or Hippowdon is dropping soon. Both have actual defensive presence in the tier: Hippowdon is a check to Electrics and Heatran with actual longevity, and Tyranitar is a good check to Heatran, Dragapult, Volcarona, and Slowking-G (especially since Flamethrower + Ice Beam is becoming more common now on the latter over Water moves or Earthquake.)
 
Can you tell us what 3-4 items and 3-5 sets you're talking about? I could be wrong but I don't think there's any one pokemon OU (or even good mons below UU) that can deal with both the specs and dragon dance pult sets.
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Foul Play
- Recover

Porygon2 sports stupid bulk on both sides of the spectrum, although I tend to think it works better as a special wall due to its fighting and Knock Off weaknesses, a Ghost immunity and Trace, which lets it copy Dragapult’s Infiltrator, which lets it easily beat Sub+DD sets, as well as the bulk and longevity to withstand repeated Specs assaults.

The last two moves depend on what your team needs, but if you’re worried about Sub+Will o Pult, Ice Beam lets it beat that set also, and Thunder Wave can also neuter and Pult set too. Teleport lets it pivot out from Pult into something else that can beat it.

And it’s probably one of the most consistent Trick Room setters if that’s your thing, which obviously Pult hates.

Just a completely wild thought:
Has anyone experimented with Unburden as an answer to Knock Off spam? Does that work the way I want it to?
Just thinking that Hawlucha resists dark and could maybe catch a solid boost off the switch, and maybe cause some chaos?
Also, thanks so much for that top 7! It makes me really happy to see Weavile finally shining in OU. It's one of my top 3 favorite pokemon of all time (Right behind Gengar and Altaria. #BanPultFreeGengar)
Ive been experimenting with itemless, max def Body Press Slowbro as a Knock Off counter, and I gotta say, it works really well.

Without an item, Knock Off only hits at 65 BP, and Slowbro’s water typing lets it resist Bisharp’s Iron Head and Weavile’s Ice STABs, so the Bro can easily tank a weak Knock and surprise KO both with a 4x SE Body Press, then pivot out to heal off the damage.
 
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Ive been experimenting with itemless, max def Body Press Slowbro as a Knock Off counter, and I gotta say, it works really well.

Without an item, Knock Off only hits at 65 BP, and Slowbro’s water typing lets it resist Bisharp’s Iron Head and Weavile’s Ice STABs, so the Bro can easily tank a weak Knock and surprise KO both with a 4x SE Body Press, then pivot out to heal off the damage.
Its probably better to run Colbur Berry on this set since it will weaken the damage of Knock Off more than if you were Itemless.
 
For starters, Mandibuzz, Clefable, and Toxapex can at very least check both sets with their most common variants barring Shadow Ball drops or crits. But beyond this, any argument about Dragapult being a problem should not stem from this at all.

It is incredibly easy to decipher if Dragapult is DD or not from team preview. DD is super uncommon to begin with and only has any viability on more offensive teams, particularly on hyper offense. And on hyper offense, you seldom see specs Dragapult as locking into the wrong move (or even the right one after a fodder) can lead to a huge problem as a free turn is suddenly opened up for the opponent, which HO struggles to deal with.

If you struggle to decipher Dragapult sets at preview (beyond boots status vs specs, which have a massive amount of overlap and you can even figure out some of the time) when talking about DD vs specially based, that’s absolutely on you as a player. If you struggle against DD Dragapult in general, a set that has been subpar and uncommon for months, then that’s far more on teambuilding issues than it is anything else. There are a myriad of viable checks and counters.

Choice Specs Dragapult is a menace and I understand frustrations about it, but the versatility card is being misapplied here and other sets simply do not belong in the same discussion.
I think you're reading too much into my post. I legit was just curious as to what pokemon FCKNfuego was thinking about.


On a more interesting topic than the constant debate about Dragapult, I decided to do an analysis of some WCoP trends.

:ss/landorus_therian:
1. Specially Defensive Landorus-T
If you look at the VR, you'll see most of the main physical attackers in this meta can potentially beat Landorus-T - Urshifu and Bisharp effectively ignore Intimidate, Weavile is Ice-type, Rillaboom, Kartana and Melmetal hit too hard for it to check them, Dragonite and offensive Landorus-T both can just use it as setup fodder. Lando is only really reliable against Zeraora. Being the ultimate utility belt/glue mon, of course people wouldn't just stop using it - instead they switched to specially defensive spreads, which are more reliable than physical defense against Dracozolt and Tapu Koko and check Volcarona and Heatran, while still checking Zeraora.
I agree completely here.

On a related note, I've noticed more Hawlucha usage on the ladder. This coincides with the disappearance of slowbro and toxapex being forced to run more specially defensive builds to deal with specs dragapult. OG zapdos is seeing less usage as well, and the trend of landorus going more spdef oriented is even better for the fighting little bird.

At the earlier days of the meta I thought Hawlucha would never be high since we have such a fat, slow meta, but pokemon that dissuade it's use are slowly fading in obscurity. Never underestimate it's ability to sweep a team though, after an unburden it outspeeds virtually anything (save barraskewda in rain), has access to swords dance, high bp stab moves, and a free fourth move slot to fit in whatever it pleases-Taunt, Stone Edge, Poison Jab, Substitute, or Roost. I'm interested to see how the meta continues to develop from this point.
 

Gomi

Stone Flower
is a Live Chat Contributor
felt like talking abt something since thread feels pretty quiet
:ss/victini:
I thought this pokemon was really mediocre at best for the longest time but after watching a few Wcop games with it and getting absolutely annihilated by tigers jaw in friendlies, I figured I just needed to give it more of a fair shot, and yea, its pretty solid. I wouldn't call it incredible but its a cool wallbreaker with cool defensive utility that bypasses the need for Choice Lock by just having real high BP Stab and colorful coverage.
Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Glaciate
vs offensive builds you can kinda just predict decently and dismantle a lot of them because you 2hko the vast majority of their staples (Lando, Slowking, Tapu Fini, etc) or its Heatran and you 3hko with like really easy to achieve chip. Paired W/ Koko, it can also threaten fat a good bit and ease prediction a lot via just hitting alot harder lol. on top of this, the defensive utility is pretty apparent, Lele Kyu Rillaboom check with a good speed tier and solid as hell bulk.
its alright
 
Hello again, since there does not seem to be a lot of discussion, I wanted to take a shot at highlighting a pokemon that I think is very underrated on our current metagame, that being Tapu Bulu, particularly Assault vest Tapu Bulu:

1623714070786.png


Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 196 HP / 164 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Focus Punch
- High Horsepower
- Rock Slide

Before I give you my favorite calcs that this set provides, I want to give you a quick overview of what this set is designed to do. I like to think of this set as an answer to the balance teams that I`ve been seeing in the last two weeks in the middle ladder (1500s-1700s) where every single team has a combination of landoT, Heatran, Clef, a defensive bird, most likely corvi or mandi, a Rillaboom, a Tapu Fini and a Dragapult. What this Tapu Bulu set achieves against these kinds of teams, is a defensive switch in to all of these mons (besides brave bird on corvi, toxic on landot and only two switches tops against magma storm/LO CM clef flamethower) and threatens with either big damage or a swing in momentum because of how it neutralizes these threats, while outspeeding even 128 spe Heatran and no speed landoT. Focus punch allows it to threaten Corvi, Mandi, Tran and Ferro on the switch, forcing them to either roost, which if read with another focus punch means death, or attack, which means that they will eat a rock slide/high horsepower and be very weakened the next turn. Horn leech doesnt need much explanation I think, its a great move that guarantees winning the 1v1 against lando and other mons like chomp. Rock slide also allows it to threaten moltres and volc, while high horsepower hits the rest of the tier at least neutral and one shots tran after you switch into it.

Now, I am not really trying to offer this set as an offensive powerhouse, it requires a lot of offensive reading sometimes and if burned is useless. However, where I think this mon really shines is in its capacity to create this opportunities to make the offensive reads by switching in to a lot of the tier and provide grassy terrain support to its team. Now on to the relevant defensive calcs:

(Im not gonna show how good it does againt mons like Rilla, Lando or non-blazekick zera because I dont think its necessary, it absolutely counters them)

If you know the Volcarona on the opposing team is the bulky set, you can switch into it as it QDs, take rocks and a flamethrower the next turn and OHKO with rock slide

+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 264-312 (80 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

If the Volcarona on the opposing team is the offensive set, you can take a flametrower/fiery dance and OHKO with rock slide

252+ SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 234-276 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 188-224 (56.9 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery and trapping damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 114-135 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 59.2% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 170-202 (51.5 - 61.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (this means that if you horn leech in the 1v1 you get to live two, plus u got pult locked into flamethrower)

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 159-187 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (you have the advantage in this 1v1 even if the chomp reads correctly to go for fire blast on your switch in and hits it both times)

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 109-130 (33 - 39.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 88-105 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (which means that if you are willing to give up your assault vest, you can always switch in comfortably against any kind of fini, including scarf)

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 130-153 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

136 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 140-166 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (you can switch in once into dracozolt and force a switch out with high horsepower)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 124-148 (37.5 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 260-307 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (but you outspeed it anyways, still relevant because of Trick room)

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu in Rain: 147-173 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

there are some other calcs that I didnt mention, including all the offensive ones, but I think this should be enough of a motivation to use this set or maybe tweak it a little bit to your liking, if you are interested in using this mon and dont know how to implement it on a team, I have found some success (peaked 1850s) with this team: https://pokepast.es/c523465f166fdfd0 in which Tapu Bulu provides great defensive answers and a grassy terrain support which is greatly appreciated by a team that would greatly struggle against EQ otherwise and also really makes use of the passive recovery it provides.

I hope I was clear enough on this post and thank you a lot for reading until the end.
 
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So do you guys already discussed about dropping Calyrex Ice rider into OU?



The dude is the wallbreaker we all are asking for shut down stall in this gen for good (anyone misses hoopa unbound?), it just doesnt fit in ubers and OU should be its place. just to sum things up:

- Horrible typing, having 6 weakness incluiding to stealth rocks, knock off and u-turn, you know the 3 most used moves in the game, and also ghost. You never can say this thing hasn't counter play that isn't avaiable everywere in OU.
- Yeah it has a better bulk than kyurem, but no roost, has more weakness and less resistances. The dude just cant just come the field whenever it wants(which is true for most Ubers in an OU environment)
- Yeah i know it has monstruous movepool, and it has nasty surprises as the rare grass coverage to deal with slow twins and fini, but its that we are needing for a wall breaker (that doesnt need to carry setup and become pex bait), the fact it cant kill most walls of the meta without dying afterwards keeps it in check on its use, being out of question its dominance. Having free switches just on the fat dudes and pretty much nothing else. Still it cant risk a scald, so even its wall breaker capabilities can be a bit questionable.
- It can bypass the omnipreset heatram, since it can take one magma storm (and only one) if at full health, if not it just become useless against the fire frog, making a good addition to incentive good play, as you need to preserve this thing to kill its probably best check
- its ability is useless, since never it will be snowballing with that speed, and being easy to be revenge killed, maybe only agaisnt full stall, or inside trick room(which isnt that good anyway)
- It hit just as hard as Melmetal, but is a lot more limited than it because of its high number of weakness. but I doubt it will hold a band, kyurem can hold specs because of resistances, the same applies to melmetal, this dude has no key resistances, subpar speed and bunch of common OU weakness that will at maximum trade a mon for another.
- It can help balance a bit dragapult, while being letal in front of it, it can take one hit and shut down the stupid dragon.

This is just my initial throught about it, i know its bulk, offences and movepool is absurd, but it has so many flaws in typing and speed... anyway i want to know more opinions from you guys, if im missing the point of this guy staying in ubers, i would like to know. thanks!
 
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So do you guys already discussed about dropping Calyrex Ice rider into OU?



The dude is the wallbreaker we all are asking for shut down stall in this gen for good (anyone misses hoopa unbound?), it just doesnt fit in ubers and OU should be its place. just to sum things up:

- Horrible typing, having 6 weakness incluiding to stealth rocks, knock off and u-turn, you know the 3 most used moves in the game, and also ghost. You never can say this thing hasn't counter play that isn't avaiable everywere in OU.
- Yeah it has a better bulk than kyurem, but no roost, has more weakness and less resistances. The dude just cant just come the field whenever it wants(which is true for most Ubers in an OU environment)
- Yeah i know it has monstruous movepool, and it has nasty surprises as the rare grass coverage to deal with slow twins and fini, but its that we are needing for a wall breaker, the fact it cant kill most walls of the meta without dying afterwards keeps it in check on its use. Having free switches just on the fat dudes and pretty much nothing else. Still it cant risk a scald, so even its wall breaker capabilities can be questionable.
- It can bypass the omnipreset heatram, since it can take one magma storm (and only one) if at full health, if not it just become useless against the fire frog, making a good addition to incentive good play, as you need to preserve this thing to kill its probably best check
- its ability is useless, since never it will be snowballing with that speed, maybe only agaisnt full stall, or inside trick room(which isnt that good)
- It hit just as hard as Melmetal, but is a lot more limited than it because of its high number of weakness. but I doubt it will hold a band, kyurem can hold specs because of resistances, the same applies to melmetal, this dude has no key resistances, subpar speed and bunch of common OU weakness that will at maximum trade a mon for another.
- It can help balance a bit dragapult, while being letal in front of it, it can take one hit and shut down the stupid dragon.

This is just my initial throught about it, i know its bulk and movepool is absurd, but it has so many flaws in typing and speed... anyway i want to know more opinions from you guys, if im missing the point of this guy staying in ubers, i would like to know. thanks!
Absolutely not. This thing would be an absolute monster. Especially like an AV set would eat 1, maybe 2 super effective specs pult shadow balls before being in range of falling, it has a 130 power 100 accuracy stab ice move that would destroy the entire meta, and things that dont drop to Lance will drop to CC, Zen Headbutt, High Horsepower, Body Press, Lash Out, Megahorn, Seed Bomb, Outrage, Heavy Slam, Crunch, or Superpower. This things movepool is absolutely bonkers, its bulk is too much, its power is off the charts.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Calyrex-Ice: 174-206 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
 
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So do you guys already discussed about dropping Calyrex Ice rider into OU?



The dude is the wallbreaker we all are asking for shut down stall in this gen for good (anyone misses hoopa unbound?), it just doesnt fit in ubers and OU should be its place. just to sum things up:

- Horrible typing, having 6 weakness incluiding to stealth rocks, knock off and u-turn, you know the 3 most used moves in the game, and also ghost. You never can say this thing hasn't counter play that isn't avaiable everywere in OU.
- Yeah it has a better bulk than kyurem, but no roost, has more weakness and less resistances. The dude just cant just come the field whenever it wants(which is true for most Ubers in an OU environment)
- Yeah i know it has monstruous movepool, and it has nasty surprises as the rare grass coverage to deal with slow twins and fini, but its that we are needing for a wall breaker (that doesnt need to carry setup and become pex bait), the fact it cant kill most walls of the meta without dying afterwards keeps it in check on its use, being out of question its dominance. Having free switches just on the fat dudes and pretty much nothing else. Still it cant risk a scald, so even its wall breaker capabilities can be a bit questionable.
- It can bypass the omnipreset heatram, since it can take one magma storm (and only one) if at full health, if not it just become useless against the fire frog, making a good addition to incentive good play, as you need to preserve this thing to kill its probably best check
- its ability is useless, since never it will be snowballing with that speed, and being easy to be revenge killed, maybe only agaisnt full stall, or inside trick room(which isnt that good anyway)
- It hit just as hard as Melmetal, but is a lot more limited than it because of its high number of weakness. but I doubt it will hold a band, kyurem can hold specs because of resistances, the same applies to melmetal, this dude has no key resistances, subpar speed and bunch of common OU weakness that will at maximum trade a mon for another.
- It can help balance a bit dragapult, while being letal in front of it, it can take one hit and shut down the stupid dragon.

This is just my initial throught about it, i know its bulk and movepool is absurd, but it has so many flaws in typing and speed... anyway i want to know more opinions from you guys, if im missing the point of this guy staying in ubers, i would like to know. thanks!
Stay off the weed bro
 

ausma

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The dude is the wallbreaker we all are asking for shut down stall in this gen for good
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I appreciate the discussion but we really should not be dropping broken Pokemon down for the sake of handling certain archetypes, especially because that said archetype that inspired this post is already doing really horribly right now for a wealth of different reasons. Moreover, banning Glacial Lance just to make it "balanced" falls under a complex ban, which has been explained in depth by others in this thread as a dangerous precedent due to it enabling slippery slopes, where we can create super complex tiering decisions for other Uber Pokemon simply because "they technically aren't broken if we just don't allow use of x or y". In doing so, we take away the control factor of determining when a particular complex ban is too much and take away actual, organic metagame development.

To explain the issue further, there are a lot of reasons as to why this Pokemon would be broken and overcentralizing in the metagame, including but not limited to its powerful STAB, strong coverage, access to Agility and Trick Room, and ability to easily snowball with As One after finding one or two simple opportunities (which is not too hard given its bulk) to break teams with little to no sweat. Bluntly, I don't think I could be convinced that this Pokemon would not be broken, or at the bare minimum not overcentralizing due to how easily it can be enabled by other Pokemon and even enable itself with its utility movepool.

I'll be stopping this conversation short right now. Do not discuss this matter further; posts doing so will be deleted.
 
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:ss/weavile:

Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

after watching the xray vs vusty game in wcop r1, weavile's presence in the meta shedded light directly into my face. this mon has been insane in wcop- particularly the sd set which garnered a lot of attention recently. two thick layers of offensive counterplay were removed in the coming months which allowed it to slowly rise on the vr and in usage; people started to realize how dangerous it was. fantastic punish game, dangerous offensive typing, at +2 your defensive core falls apart. weavile's prio ice shard makes it a great lategame cleaner- you have a few defensive options such as scizor, corviknight, skarmory, helmet pex as a means to punish it, etc.

difficult to play longterm games with gking / kanto slowking in the back to pressure its defensive checks further while avoiding hazard damage w/ boots. weavile is having a field day in the current metagame especially with its offensive partners like tapu koko, whirlpool / scarf fini and such. i find cb to still be decent but easier for the opp to win with hazards if its your biggest threat in the back, making it easily punishable and being forced to make plays.

use this mon btw
 
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Hello Smogon, I am posting this message to you on my personal opinion concerning the current OU metagame and my feelings on the strategy at the moment. I find that the SS OU metagame is really bad because of a pokemon called kyurem which for me deserves at least a suspect test because the pressure it puts on the build (at least for me) is quite monstrous thanks to its set choice specs typing very hard and having little switch in as well as its very effective substitute set against stall, the pokemon is the main reason why scizor is more and more played in OU precisely me in my builds a lot of my teams have a scizor or a blissey so much kyurem is a threat, that's why I would say that it deserves at least a suspect test. Besides I found very interesting to test zamazenta crowned in OU in April it allowed to renew a little the metagame, precisely I thought about why not a suspect test of zygarde in OU thanks to several reasons which I will state: first of all I would say that in the current metagame there are many pokémons capable either of revenge kill zygarde or of the manage in a way re defensive I could state for example weavile which is extremely strong and popular nowadays and which would make a very good revenge killer in zygarde there is also kyurem of which I spoke above which with its very good bulk can tank and threaten very strongly zygarde there is also defensive dragonite with heal bell and ice beam to avoid being haxx by glare, there is also slowbro which is played with ice beam and which tanks zygarde very well with the possibility of burning it with scald, i will not not state the whole list I could also have mentioned landorus therian mandibuzz and clefable but in short for me zygarde would be a very interesting pokemon to suspect test in OU and that would also make it possible to bring something new to the 8th generation strategy as we have it currently know. That was all I had to say and on this I wish you happiness !!!
 
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