If we're gonna talk about trapping we should talk about Heatran not Zone
I also think is very underrated especially with the Dragon Dance set. It's an enormous lategame cleaner and sweeper and with the right support it gets itself going. I do feel great partners are specially defensive Clefable to cover Dragapult, Hydreigon and to a degree Kyurem, which are highly threatening to Dragonite, or even Slowking, to slowly pivot it on the field safely. Landorus-T can also help Dragonite to cover up the ever dangerous Garchomp and also strong attackers such as Melmetal. What I think makes a really good partner is Magnezone (not to surge back to the topic ofc) but it can trap and remove Skarmory and Corviknight which can be a pain for Dragonite itself to deal with, so it opens up the path for Dragonite.I don’t have further comment on the Magnet Pull/Magnezone topic beyond what I already offered currently, but I’ll try to circle back to it in the future whenever I do.
One Pokemon I find quite underrated right now is Dragon Dance . The combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and Multiscale is a godsend. Dragonite already has a very underrated defensive presence, naturally checking Volcarona, Heatran, and Rillaboom. This generation grants it an even better opportunity to check things and generate free turns, which is what makes Dragon Dance variants so scary.
Dual Wingbeat presents it with a highly coveted Flying STAB that is reliable, Roost allows it to heal off damage and restore Multiscale, and EQ is a coverage option whereas Heal Bell prevents status from derailing a sweep. With the right support and partners, DD Dragonite can and will thrive in this metagame I feel. Curious what others think!
Oh trust me I was thinking of ranting about trapping moves after this whole magnet pull thing just for the sake of consistency. I do have my own misgivings about banning trapping moves because you have to actively trap your target instead of just switching in and trapping but since they have similar concept, I wouldn't mind discussing them since I did say trapping is trapping, regardless of form, size or shape. To be honest, I'm just curious where the council stands on this since they were the ones that said that switching is fundamentalIf we're gonna talk about trapping we should talk about Heatran not Zone
What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.Now that the suspect is over I would like to make some comments on the latest discussions;
- This is bulk, fast and has a variety of sets to deal with your counters (remembering the Zygarde effect) with the exception of Heatran. However, you not only need to use Heatran, but also Leftovers, Taunt and refrain from exploring Flame Body. Debatable.
Magnet Pull - Although its reach is much less than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, I like the line of thought in which it is consistent to consider it as uncompetitive and deserving of a ban as AT / ST. The problem is that there is a lack of good Magnet Pull users. Magnezone has a respectable 130 SpA but lacks the flexibility needed to handle all Steel-types in the tier with the same set. Limited movepool and insufficient speed. I do not want to dwell here, it deserves a discussion on the merits or not of trapping one of the main types of metagame, but in the distant future.
/ Teleport - Teleport is a very debatable move in which we could discuss how healthy or brainless its use is for the tier, but an undeniable point is that we have great users of this move. Clefable doesn't care about status and hazards, just like Blissey (boots). But Slows have great bulk, Regenerator, in addition offensive pressure with Future Sight and even punish switchs with a possible Scald Burn. As a casual player, I don't want to point out whether the problem is if Teleport is broken/uncompetitive, or if Slows, bringing together all its qualities is what makes it unsustainable, but to suggest that the next step for a better metagame is to tinker with that hornet's nest, although I also know that we just came out of a suspect and maybe a few days to observe the metagame are necessary, although we did not have a change in the tier.
Generally, Smogon tries to go for simple bans rather than complex ones, and targets the root of the problem to the best of their ability. We could've banned certain mons from using Dynamax, but decided to just ban the mechanic as a whole as it's far too much to deal with under most circumstances. And new abusers would've risen up anyway. BW OU's ruleset is a mess, and we'd like to avoid a repeat of that as much as possible.What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
Which means either the slow twins and glowbro or teleport get suspectedGenerally, Smogon tries to go for simple bans rather than complex ones, and targets the root of the problem to the best of their ability. We could've banned certain mons from using Dynamax, but decided to just ban the mechanic as a whole as it's far too much to deal with under most circumstances. And new abusers would've risen up anyway. BW OU's ruleset is a mess, and we'd like to avoid a repeat of that as much as possible.
(emphasis mine)Again, the problem isn't me playing Devil's Advocate to protect the items. I want them gone as much as everyone else in the thread. The problem is making sure the logical train is airtight to prevent a slippery slope. I'm sure even with arguments you could argue some slippery slopes, but it's also a start to addressing the problem and keeping it within tiering specifics that attempt to follow a logical flow without half-assing the argument as "I just don't like the item and it should go".
Problem is with banning a combo of teleport + sight or any other of the twins moveset is they're not broken on any other mon with for example teleport + future sight, I dont see a point in banning this combo that isnt broken and why not just ban the twins, if you're removing teleport and future sight, which is basically 95% of why they're used, then might as well ban it instead.What if we were to suspect the combo of teleport with wish or the combo of teleport with future sight rather than the slow-twins or clef, because without the combo of these two moves in the same set, they would be perfectly balanced. Teleport and future sight on their own are balanced, but when put together they can cause a lot of headaches. The same goes with the combo of teleport and wish, both of those make games last a whole lot longer then they need to be most of the time. And due to the fact that the Zamazenta-C it gave these teleport abusers spotlight, maybe banning these move combos rather than the abusers or the moves themselves is the best solution for the long term health of stall teams and the tier of OU as a whole.
Magnezone @ Assault VestVolcarona is really good right now between it's three sets (3 attacks, 2 attacks roost and safeguard) with only Heatran countering all of them. No Dugtrio and Golem-A means there's no way to trap Heatran unfortunately, right? No wrong! I've been using this Magnezone set which can trap tran easily if you switch in on toxic or SR or get it in via a double switch.
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpA / 56 SpD / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
Set could be optimised further but the EVs allow zone to tank one earth power from Heatran and Kyurem after SR and obviously KOs back with Mirror coat. Mirror coat is very unexpected but cool tech. AV Magnezone can still trap the metal birds and serves as a decent one/two time switch in to Lele, Dragapult, Koko and some other special attackers. It can be used as a decent switch in for special attackers on more offensive teams. I used on a Volt turn team with Volc, Rillaboom and Kart and had good results. One replay I saved on the decently high ladder (1700s) where zone put in a ton of work: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1329911805
Edit: Thanks Drahe for help with the larger sprite
The problem with that set is that Modest Tran Earth Power has a roll to OHKO. While very rare, they DO exist. It's better to just focus on trapping Tran as much as you can, when you run a set like this -Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 112 SpA / 56 SpD / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Flash Cannon
- Mirror Coat
- Body Press
For a different spread, this one has the same defensive potential as yours, but I don't think Zone needs THAT much speed; I see that you are trying to outspeed Heatran, but it doesn't really make sense when you're trying to KO it using a negative priority move in Mirror Coat anyway. Zone could use a bit more power and have more SpAtk EVs. Also, just the tiniest of Def investment allows Magnezone to always 3HKO 252/252+ Blissey with Body Press, which is a very cool interaction as if you catch a Blissey on a Teleport with Body Press, suddenly it can't switch into Magnezone anymore due to the risk of getting 2HKOd by Body Press. Also, this deals A LOT more damage than Flash Cannon to SpDef Tyranitar, another troublesome mon for Volcarona. Yes you lose the momentum-grabbing Volt Switch, but I think those Blissey and Tyranitar interaction are pretty interesting, specifically for Volcarona. Also, Discharge is an option for Electric STAB because the yellow magic is beautiful. This outspeeds univested and 4 Spe EVs base 70s (mainly Skarmory)
It definitely isn't, but this set has merits outside of somewhat trapping Heatran. Anything that can or has the potential to remove Heatran from the game AND do something else deserves attention. It still traps Skarmory and a chipped Corviknight well, plus with the increased SpDef bulk it's able to actually switch once or twice into STABs from stuff that it can immediately threaten back (Kyurem, Lele, Tornadus, Zapdos, even Specs Pult only 3HKOs with Shadow Ball), also Body Press is an interesting move for AV sets for the aforementioned reasons. I think AV Mirror Coat is an underexplored setThe problem with that set is that Modest Tran Earth Power has a roll to OHKO. While very rare, they DO exist. It's better to just focus on trapping Tran as much as you can, when you run a set like this -
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
This set guaranteed lives a EP from Modest Tran after rocks. However, even this set is not guaranteed to work as a 0 SpAtk Tran has a roll to not even do enough with Magma Storm to this set to get reverse KOed from Mirror Coat. On min roll, Max HP Tran only takes 87% back from Mirror Coat. On the plus side, this set does take 2 Lava Plumes from Tran, only seen on 0 SpAtk variants, so you could trap even those rare variants.
I think 87 min not too bad and you have roll to still kill from full however, it is not in your favor at all. You technically can just ignore Modest as they are very rare and then this problem goes away but this set will work against all variants except the even rarer specs versions and eruption variants. At the end of the day Zone is just isn't meant to trap Tran. We can kind of try with this but it there a lot of variants that still won't get trapped by this. It is impossible to umbrella trap all Tran variants with a Zone.
I agree, I have used it a lot, dont know why players dont consider ir more. Trapping tran is a bigger deal than ferro itself. Helps with koko and dragapult but in some matches it isnt useful because u lack power and speed but the reward are huge like removing tran can let stuff like volc and Banded tini to be a big dealIt definitely isn't, but this set has merits outside of somewhat trapping Heatran. Anything that can or has the potential to remove Heatran from the game deserves attention. It still traps Skarmory and a chipped Corviknight well, plus with the increased SpDef bulk it's able to actually switch once or twice into STABs from stuff that it can immediately threaten back (Kyurem, Lele, Tornadus, Zapdos, even Specs Pult only 3HKOs with Shadow Ball), also Body Press is an interesting move for AV sets for the aforementioned reasons. I think AV Mirror Coat is an underexplored set
Oh boy. I was kind of worried that this train of thought was going to go here eventually, but I was debating whether to say something since I didn't want to trot out the old slippery-slope fallacy. That if Magnet Pull needed to be banned because consistency, what was to stop trapping moves from facing the banhammer on the same principle? And yet, apparently this argument was more than just a possibility.tl;dr Imo trapping moves / abilities are objectively broken and not good for the meta
A lot of players right now are probably young so perhaps many of them don't remember when magnezon was closer to be op with hp fire (before that megas were even introduced).Honestly it's bizarre to me that this is the generation that the Magnet Pull discussions seem to be picking up steam, given how this is the generation that Magnezone has the fewest potential victims since its inception.