Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Shout out to the time my Contrary Shuckle won a game because it got an evasion boost from being Defoged.

Can we also throw in King's Rock (and I think there's another item to flinches too?) to the "I know it's kinda shitty but it should still be banned" pile? No one would mourn the loss of Accupressure or Bright powder either.

Sand veil (and I guess Snow Cloak) are a bit different because they're situational, but every pokemon who has one of these abilities can run something else. Although it would be amusing that 2 of Dugtrio's 3 abilities were banned.
 
Ight you guys are getting way too ban happy fucking hell. Chill the hell out. Kings rock is only useful on mons who have skill link (more importantly, Cloyster) who isnt even meta nor is breaking it. If it has kings rock it has to give up Sash or Power herb which is infinitely more useful than Kings rock
>Mfw I said power herb
Meant the other herb
 
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Bright Powder Sand Veil Garchomp<Leftovers Sand Veil Garchomp.
Which is better, forcing your opponent to hit with an 80% accurate move at least 5 times to break all your Subs, or a 72% accurate move 4 times (3 times if you've taken any chip, such as hazards)? Also Leftovers is way more useful outside Sandstorm.
You're welcome.

For those who are really interested in this, there was already a PR thread on this topic:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...on-weather-abilities-in-generation-8.3675483/
Seems to have been left open and unresolved, but basically IMHO:
Bright Powder is not an issue. The fact Hydro Pump is twice as likely to miss naturally than any Bright Powder-affected move should speak volumes. As should the fact that the odds of getting two Bright Powder misses in a row are literally 1%. It's just a bad item.
Sand Veil is not an issue in of itself. You don't see Sand Veil Dugtrio or Gabite in OU, unlike with previous Ability bans, where It was demonstrated that literally NFEs could abuse them almost as well as FEs. It should be noted that every past gen that has banned Sand Veil had perma-sand, which makes Sand Veil an altogether different prospect. The only thing that makes Sand Veil potentially problematic is the unique combination of traits Garchomp has: Scale Shot, Swords Dance, high ATK and good speed, passable bulk, so if anything is on the chopping block here, it should be Chomp itself.

Turning all moves into Hydro Pump is an issue, but keep in mind this is outdone by simply clicking Minimise once (and so is Bright Powder+Sand Veil). Evasion Clause is in place because of the effect evasion-boosters have when used to boost multiple stages, which literally turns the battle into iterative coin tossing, and the only way out is phazing. Sand Veil being capable of being stalled out IMO is important, and what makes it banworthy in past gens is the lack of this.
 
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No one is arguing that these items are better. Quite the opposite. They're trash.

But they are of the nature that a) they do nothing in the vast majority of games and then b) they occasionally pluck wins out of nowhere

In the same vein as OHKO moves, Double Team and all the other things we ban for being uncompetitive. These may be the less effective options but we wouldn't allow a less accurate OHKO move would we?
 
No one is arguing that these items are better. Quite the opposite. They're trash.

But they are of the nature that a) they do nothing in the vast majority of games and then b) they occasionally pluck wins out of nowhere

In the same vein as OHKO moves, Double Team and all the other things we ban for being uncompetitive. These may be the less effective options but we wouldn't allow a less accurate OHKO move would we?
Yeah, but Double Team is actually an effective strat. Same with OHKO moves. Both have several competitive applications and see usage in AG depending on the state of the metagame.
Double Team lets you boost evasion multiple stages. Enough to where it gets to the point that moves are more likely to miss than hit. This is what makes FullPass viable in AG.
OHKO moves are extremely ridiculous stallbreakers and check-bypassers in general. If you have multiple opportunities to fire off an OHKO move you're getting at least one KO.
The problem is both that these strats are so luck-based and coin-tossy AND that their counterplay is way too hard to feasibly fit into viable teams consistently (Study, phazing, sure-hits etc).
Bright Powder, on the other hand, is just garbage. No matter how you look at it.
 
No one is arguing that these items are better. Quite the opposite. They're trash.

But they are of the nature that a) they do nothing in the vast majority of games and then b) they occasionally pluck wins out of nowhere

In the same vein as OHKO moves, Double Team and all the other things we ban for being uncompetitive. These may be the less effective options but we wouldn't allow a less accurate OHKO move would we?
I'm not sure this logic works. As a dumb example, I sometimes run Dazzling Gleam on my Starmie. I rarely ever click it, so in most games it does nothing. But a bulky Hydreigon switches in expecting to tank a Surf/Psyshock gets obliterated, plucking the win out of nowhere.

That's not to say I think shit like Brightpowder is good, its generally not (i feel if any accuracy modifiers are gonna deserve a ban then its Sand Veil/Snowcloak but I'd argue that's unfair too), but I don't think this is the route to go down.

Like, Hydro Pump is a useful move over Surf for securing OHKOs/2HKOs. However, that's a way less accurate option, similar to the reduction in accuracy from bright powder. At what point do we accept that some of this is part of the game and that we can't streamline it?
 
Can we also throw in King's Rock (and I think there's another item to flinches too?) to the "I know it's kinda shitty but it should still be banned" pile? No one would mourn the loss of Accupressure or Bright powder either.
Highly disagree with this, flinching is entirely different than boosting your evasiveness stat.
First of all, as said by OneSmogonCopyer , the only inherent abusers of King's rock in the metagame at the moment are Cloyster and possibly Cincinno, which amount to a flinching chance of 41%. The huge difference here is that there is sufficient counterplay to flinching strategies.
Simply outspeeding the opponent/using a priority move eliminates this chance effect, which isn't the case for evasiveness.

Starting to ban flinching effects also leads to a dangerous slippery slope, which could target things like Jirachi and Togekiss, which are deemed to have uncompetitive strategies, but have sufficient counterplay and are manageable in the metagame.

TLDR: Flinching should not be compared to Evasiveness, since it has actual counterplay.
 
Bright Powder has an extremely steep opportunity cost. I honestly don't think it matters either way whether it's banned or not because nothing will ever viably run it. Y'all are suddenly trying to build a metagame where certain very unlikely random elements are totally forbidden, but others are completely fine (Chandelure's Inferno is 5x more likely to activate and could probably clutch a game or two). It's arbitrary and mostly pointless because, again, Bright Powder is very bad.
 
You guys remember when this thread wasn’t talking about evasion? Was a good time tbh, let’s get back to that. Thanks
but then we were talking about... Zamazenta right? we'll just find another thing to get trapped in endless loops about

anyway

let's talk about Urshifu-RS.

I think this pokemon is a huge benefactor of the current metachanges, as it can take advantage of Slowking and Toxapex being the main bulky waters w/ future sight support. I really think this pokemon is a huge meta threat rn.
 

Finchinator

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I mean it's a legitimate inquiry Finch.

It's also better than discussing the same 5 points about Zam-C for another 12 pages while waiting for it to be unbanned.
It is a legitimate inquiry, but it is not a legitimate inquiry that most posters in this thread are capable of coherently arguing about and this was reflected within the posts. I would be happy to discuss this in a PR thread or via PMs where it is contained and quality controlled a little, but I have discretion as a moderator to moderate this thread when it is derailing, posts are getting out of hand, and etc. and I used it here.

The fact that metagame discussion this generation is so open to suspect and ban talk as is largely is because I believe in transparency and read every single post made about these matters, which has never been the case previously. I am happy this is the case, but this is still largely a privilege and it comes alongside checks and rules much like posting in any other thread. I’d like to think this is in line with just about any other moderator asking posters to change topics in any other thread, so there is not much of an issue as far as I’m concerned.
 

Finchinator

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There are dozens of viable pokemon to discuss. If you don’t want to talk about Zama, there are so many other topics to post about and I can even provide some myself if you guys would prefer. I don’t view the conversation previously focusing on that as an issue or a limiting factor, for what it’s worth.
 
There are dozens of viable pokemon to discuss. If you don’t want to talk about Zama, there are so many other topics to post about and I can even provide some myself if you guys would prefer. I don’t view the conversation previously focusing on that as an issue or a limiting factor, for what it’s worth.
I (and I think a lot of the rest of the thread) would definitely be interested in your views on the metagame at present, particularly what sort of stuff could become more important soon (outside of the fairly obvious ones like Scizor, Kyurem, Lele, etc).

I think these include urshifu-rapid-strike (Already posted about this, tldr is w/ future sight support it takes advantage of pex and slowking) and Terrakion (Haven't used it yet, but in theory, it should appreciate slowbro becoming less popular)

EDIT:
While building a team to check out Terrak, I just realized that Tang is also getting way better nowadays with its ability to check plenty of the things that are getting popular atm.
 
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Just wanted to use my first ever forum post to say that Slowbro does not matter to Terrakion if you're running Megahorn, which is perfectly fine as coverage unless you're very weak to Aegislash or something, since it's also a guaranteed 2HKO against Tangrowth, OHKO against Latios, and a slightly more accurate move to hit Tapu Lele if you're a coward like me.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 455-538 (115.4 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Terrakion's quite the menace; people really don't build to beat it. I've been using it around the 1600-1700s range and it has never disappointed. Sadly, I don't have any replays on me, but, come on, just look at the tier. It's filled to the brim with Terrakion victims, and Terrakion doesn't even need to boost to beat most of them.
 
Just wanted to use my first ever forum post to say that Slowbro does not matter to Terrakion if you're running Megahorn, which is perfectly fine as coverage unless you're very weak to Aegislash or something, since it's also a guaranteed 2HKO against Tangrowth, OHKO against Latios, and a slightly more accurate move to hit Tapu Lele if you're a coward like me.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 455-538 (115.4 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Terrakion's quite the menace; people really don't build to beat it. I've been using it around the 1600-1700s range and it has never disappointed. Sadly, I don't have any replays on me, but, come on, just look at the tier. It's filled to the brim with Terrakion victims, and Terrakion doesn't even need to boost to beat most of them.
Excellent note! IIRC, in aim's video featuring Terrak a bit ago (where I actually played him and lost), he used Megahorn (got a key kill on my slowbro with it).

Also, it's not just LO sets that are good, band, lead, and scarf sets (With band and scarf having no issues fitting megahorn) are very much good options.
 
I mean it's a legitimate inquiry Finch.

It's also better than discussing the same 5 points about Zam-C for another 12 pages while waiting for it to be unbanned.
I legit don't understand how you can argue talking about evasion is a more stupid thing to talk about than unbanning zamazenta.Yeah both are dumb to talk about but that's not a good comparison like at all.Very few people actually give a shit about sand viel garchomp or whatever the evasion arguments are compared to unbanning zamazenta.Either way we don't need to continue the evasion discussion
 
I (and I think a lot of the rest of the thread) would definitely be interested in your views on the metagame at present, particularly what sort of stuff could become more important soon (outside of the fairly obvious ones like Scizor, Kyurem, Lele, etc).

I think these include urshifu-rapid-strike (Already posted about this, tldr is w/ future sight support it takes advantage of pex and slowking) and Terrakion (Haven't used it yet, but in theory, it should appreciate slowbro becoming less popular)
I personally have used Terrakion quite a bit and I want to talk about Terrakion's two best sets in the meta (in my opinion): Swords Dance and Choice Band.

:ss/terrakion:

Swords Dance

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Megahorn / Substitute / Stealth Rock

Here's a challenge for you. Go find an OU Pokemon that counters this monster at +2. Go ahead, I'll wait. Now that you searched in futililty for something that can comfortably take a hit, you can probably see how much potential this set has (especially with FuturePort support!) and how it plays out in battle. Basically, come in and start throwing out attacks like a madman and SD when it is safe to do so. EQ is to crush Pex while Megahorn destroys Slowbro and other bulky Psychics. It is worth mentioning, though, that Terrakion 2HKOes both Pex and Slowbro with Stone Edge, but it really does not want to take a Scald or a status move from them, especially since they both carry Regenerator. Substitute can be run in the last slot to ease prediction and is a huge help against bulkier, status-happy Pokemon like the aforementioned Toxapex, and it can shield Terrakion from revenge killers (especially that annoying Rillaboom). Finally, rocks are rocks, and if you don't have room to fit it somewhere else Terrakion can wallbreak while setting rocks, Garchomp style.

Choice Band

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Jolly Nature
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Megahorn
- Megahorn / Quick Attack / Toxic

This set reminds me of Kyurem: with the right coverage move and correct predictions, almost nothing in the tier can safely come into this (not even Shedinja hahahaha). What do we do with a Pokemon like this? Oh yes, click buttons and blow things up! Again, EQ for Pex, Megahorn for Slows, blah blah blah. Quick Attack might seem strange, but Terrakion is actually quite content with just its STAB moves and only one coverage option and therefore can afford a moveslot for it. This improves its matchup against offense a ton, which is really nice for a Pokemon with 7 weaknesses. Finally, Toxic can be run to cripple Pokemon and allow Terrakion to kill them more easily later, and it eases prediction in the "I know he's going to switch but which move should I click" situations (though Terrakion often does more damage by clicking an attack anyway). This set plays like most choiced wallbreakers (Kyurem), which basically means use the right moves to hit the right Pokemon. I would also add that it is incredibly hard to find a switch in for this thing, especially among the more viable Pokemon in the metagame (i.e. not Buzzwole or Palossand or something like that).

I've also experimented with SubSalac Terrakion. Maybe if I find success with it I'll post about it here.

Team Support

Terrakion (both sets) absolutely loves Future Sight support and slow pivoting, so Slowbro/Slowking are ideal partners for it. Also, throw in something that can take on Rillaboom for obvious reasons. I'll also add that while both Terrakion sets fare better against bulkier teams, it is not helpless against offense thanks to its great base 108 speed and decent 91/90/90 bulk (especially considering the amount of power it offers). Still, Pokemon that can take on offense pretty well makes for good partners. Outside of those, however, Terrakion is relatively self-sufficient, for as long as you manage to bring it in it'll be doing some serious damage. Also, sweepers and cleaners appreciate Terrakion blasting holes in opposing teams for them to clean up.

Terrakion's qualities over other Pokemon

This is going to be a mercifully short section (for me, but if you have to read my content I'd feel sorry for you too) because it is quite easy to see what sets Terrakion apart. The SD set has superior speed to every other SD breaker except for Kartana, who has a much worse offensive typing. Its power is also on par with other SD breakers. The Banded set has a move for almost the entire tier, making it stand out from similar breakers like Urshifu-R It is also faster/stronger than most physical breakers. Finally, both sets pack unparalleled STAB moves in terms of both power and coverage, making it stand out from similar Pokemon like Landorus-T and Garchomp.


This ends my rant on Terrakion and miles of bad humor. I feel that it is criminally underrated (only C+ rank on the VR, what?!) and I think that the thing has potential to make a serious impact on the metagame. That's all I have for now, peace, and if there's anything that I missed/needs correcting just let me know!
 
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ausma

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Hey everyone, I wanted to quickly give my 2 cents on the Sand Veil discussion; both from the perspective of a player and as a moderator of the forum.

As a player: I definitely dislike it. While not broken, it does remove an element of control from the game with a very major, unfair consequence. And also while not as powerful as its past generation incarnations, Sand Veil is still inherently uncompetitive and is something I just really dislike because it takes away control from the game and leaves it in the grasp of something entirely random. I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing a clause for it.

However, as a moderator: I don’t believe this thread is really the place of discussion for it, as specific mechanic clauses inherently involve more than just OU—it trickles down to every subsequent tier. It’s not really our place to enforce policies for the sake of our own experience.

As mentioned prior, there is a PR thread which you can find here to discuss the matter further under a more dedicated medium. The thread has yet to be resolved and appears to be still open for discussion. For the metagame discussion thread, though, I would suggest avoiding further discussion given the circumstances of the clause.

If you have any questions, as always, feel free to let us know!
 
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Obligatory disclaimer: I was writing this before Ausma asked to stop, but it took 90 mins to write and I didn't wanna throw away all this work, I'm sorry :psygrump:

I'm surprised Sand Veil isn't brought up more often tbh, it's really the definition of uncompetitive. I've been using this set I've had the idea for from Pais's post in the Policy Review thread:


Clutchomp (Garchomp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake​

The spread is used to outspeed scarf base 95s (Lele and Kyurem mainly) after a SS. The strategy is quite simple: you enter in sand (preferably on something slower than you), set up Sub and fish for a miss, then SD and usually either autowin or at least take down 2 or 3 enemy mons. Basically, if you can get at +2/+1 with Sub, there is very little your opponent can do. It doesn't fare well against the Steel birds (who usually don't threaten you that much anyway) and cannot do anything to the rare Togekiss. Multiple priority users can also be a problem, as without Sub this thing is pretty frail due to SS defense drops, and Rilla's Grassy Terrain weakens your EQs obv, but you usually want to clean with this set anyway. Another thing to note is that usually people don't expect Sand Veil (even in sand) as it is used by 12% of Chomps, which often in ladder results in ragequits.

Now, getting at +2/+1 with Sub isn't an easy task normally, but because now every move has a 20% chance of missing, you have a lot more leeway in how much you can take on with this set. The chances are at follows for 100% accuracy moves with and without BP as you fish for one miss with Sub. To note is that to get 5 subs with sand on you'll need Smooth Rock on your setter, so

Number of TurnsProbability to miss at least once w/o BPProbability to miss at least once w/ BP
120%30%
236%51%
348.8%65.7%
459.04%75.99%
567.23%---

What all this boils down to is that you can get to a point in which your opponent thinks they've got you cornered, only for them to miss and lose because your Sand Veil Chomp goes sicko mode at their team and win. I sadly don't have replays save for this one which really undersells how degenerate this set can be when in the hands of a good player (i.e. not me). The thing that strikes me the most about this set is on how much stuff you can set up, sweep, and put yourself in an advantageous position for the rest of the match.

Whether to ban Sand Veil for being the uncompetitive element, Garchomp for being the only good abuser (especially as Gen 8 policy has put greater emphasis on banning mons as opposed to other stuff), or both (lol) isn't really up to me, but waiting until this thing gets used and potentially wins a high-profile tour game is disingenuous on part of the council, especially as this could technically fall under Evasion Clause. On the other hand, Brightpowder on its own isn't especially problematic as it is not nearly as consistent nor as reliable as Sand Veil+Chomp.

In short, Sand Veil Chomp is, while sometimes a bit inconsistent, a mon which can turn the tides of a match by taking the reins away from the better player, which is why I believe it to be uncompetitive.

ausma edit: i will allow it
 
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The Most INSANE SSOU Top 10 Ever!?
- Number 6 Will SHOCK You!

I decided to try my hand at this whole YouTube thing, except without the YouTube part. I like these top 10s, they're a very clean way to organise very disorganised thoughts without compiling a whole personal viability ranking list. I've been finding a lot that Lando-T + Bird + Slowking + Tran + breaker + speed teams are exceedingly consistent right now for a lot of reasons so that's half of the list covered already, but the last few are mons that have utility on similar structures or either have so much overall utility or are so overwhelmingly good at specific things that they deserve worthwhile mention. I'll cover off some sleeper picks and overrated dong picks later too because there's a fair amount of both imo.


10. Zeraora
The mon on the list on the least amount of my teams is this thing, but it's fucking good. I'm gonna open Zera with a long-winded paragraph about another mon, and that's Regieleki. Specs Regieleki is the most adorable and happy mon Game Freak have ever made and I want to hug it. It is also an absolute sleeper pick that needs to be credited beyond just being a fringe-viable speed gimmick. It being hard-walled by all Grounds and Volt Absorbers is a common argument against it but that justification discredits the fact that it can virtually 2HKO the entirety of the remaining metagame with T-Bolt or Electro Ball with the exceptions of T-Tar and Chansey, so while the things that can come in on it can hard counter it consistently in a purely 1v1 scenario, that's still a limited pool of mons that are virtually required to handle this thing. Couple this limitation now with common FuturePort support and you have a forced 'pick your poison' situation whereby you either sac something to Electric STAB or stomach an FS trying to block that every time and suddenly your counter is now under a lot more pressure, particularly if Knocked Off or Toxiced or whatever else, those consistent counters stop being so consistent now and are actually heavily pressured to do their job. Credit for Regieleki does stop there though as it still does suffer from the typical limitations that one-dimensional button-clickers tend to suffer from. Enter Zeraora who can can abuse FuturePort support to a very similar degree, but with additional benefits of set versatility, and coverage options at the compromise of pure absurd power. Access to CC allows it to also abuse FuturePort in much the same way classic abusers like Fu and Ace used to, access to Knock, the most no-drawback move in the game, is a phenomenal asset for an offensive pivot, Grass Knot allows it to function as a lure for mons such as Hippo and Pert to get good immediate damage and Toxic allows it to catch those two along with Lando, Chomp, Tang, and others to limit their consistency and staying power, and its speed tier is brilliant in allowing it to bypass all relevant non-Scarfers (barring the aforementioned Eleki) and it has the coverage to threaten them effectively. Zera does have enough tools in its arsenal and benefits from common team support options enough to be worth keeping on the radar, even if it has been suffering more and more with each new DLC release.


9. Magnezone
Those who know me know of my Magnezone addiction, and while my running joke has been that I say it's the best mon in the game, it's not. All that said though it's still really fucking good, and while DLC2 did bring with it a whole host of new hardships it has to face in the form of Tran and offensive Grounds, it has also brought with it a massive slew of new opportunities for the Magnet Pulling UFO. Corv is everywhere and Ferro is absurdly popular also, making ID Body Press sets very desirable with specific breakers. RillaZone is the obvious cheap beloved pairing from DLC1, but now options like ChompZone, LeleZone, KartZone, FiniZone, D-NiteZone and others are all on the table now; Corv and Ferro gone can turn the tier into a playground for these things. While I think Specs sets are far from ideal with the sheer number of Ferros that need squashing, one of the main reasons it's probably worth running a Zone so much right now in the first place, it is still a viable option because those Specs T-Bolts and Specs Flash Canons slap. More offensive takes on the ID set have also risen, like Modest Magnet and E-Belt variants being able to OHKO standard Corv from full while acting as a 'mini-Specs' variant to maintain a good strong offensive presence outside of its trapping utility, all while still being able to perform their routine Ferro squashing duties. Couple it with FuturePort support from a generic defensive core and it becomes exceptionally difficult to avoid your metal things being trapped or your non-metal things chipped. It's good.


8. Kartana
Mr no switch ins. I can understand people who believe this falls just short of the top 10 mark, but it's so bonkers with the current support options available that I couldn't leave it off. SD is ludicrous and can manhandle anything defensive, and Scarf and Band are bonkers FuturePort abusers. Scarf is a clean sweeper that can snowball very quickly in the late game and serves as a considerable anti-offence option, though I feel it has stiff competition for being your first choice in that respect. Banded is my personal favourite with its ridiculous immediate power and FuturePort support being able to help it forward with some of its rolls. I've found SD a bit cumbersome to work with, but nothing dismantles fat like it. Grass-spam structures with Rillaboom are also worthy of note because they're still around and carrying their weight, but I think it's a somewhat gimmicky pairing for the most part that serves more utility vs specific teams than being a well-rounded structure in itself.


7. Kyurem
People are calling SpD Scizor good now partly because of this thing, that should say enough. Specs still has the ability to circumstantially 2HKO a vast majority of the meta, but I'm not huge on it right now personally. I'm big on the SubRoost set like most others, that thing is capable of winning some games at preview, Freeze Dry and Earth Power are ridiculously spammable and effective blanket coverage and its bulk is often underestimated. It's well capable of dismantling the common defensive structures around right now, and I'm confident it will consistently remain the premier Ice type of the tier. Scarf is dog shit though, stop using it.


6. Slowking
I lied, this probably won't shock you. I find myself gravitating towards Slowking more because I feel like I have to moreso than I want to, but it's such good compression and utility that it has to be here. Being a good answer to Tran, a passable check to Lele, Water resist, defensive pivot, and FuturePort setter it's a very very desirable package on many teams. I mentioned in my last RMT a functional core extends beyond two mons that just play the 1v1 game given that that relies on your opponent willingly sacing something to you for some reason or you being able to win the battle of attrition of cycling breakers and checks repeatedly; I harp on so much about FuturePort because it helps throw a spanner in that cycle very easily. Future Sight is a really fucking good positioning asset that will force your opponent to make sacrifices they'd otherwise not want to make which is a massive advantage to have in a meta with so many strong offensive titans. Slowking is the best at doing that right now given how well its defensive utilities hold up.


5. Rillaboom
Monke.


4. Dragapult
Ghost resists are limited and Specs Shadow Balls sting. Great support vs Rain and HO, great way to threaten potent breakers like Kyu, Lele, Kart, etc. Really fucking fast. This thing's good, I'm far and away the biggest on Specs and I usually opt for T-Bolt as coverage to lure and catch Mandi which often helps open up complimentary breakers. Speaking of complimentary breakers and going back to FuturePort babble, FuturePort + breaker is a great way to force its checks into provocative positions. Pult's ability to benefit from the support of common team structures as well as offensively handle their threats make it a brilliant choice on a lot of builds, its usage certainly reflects that too. Status Hex sets are also ok, but I think they're a far cry from what they used to be and are just more annoying than anything else, but certainly considerable nonetheless.


3. Corviknight
Premier Defogger of the tier due to its incredible defensive typing and flexibility. Not being susceptible to Toxic or severely limited if Knocked are phenomenal assets to this guy's longevity and it serves as one of the more consistent checks to potent breakers like Rillaboom, Kart, Chomp, Exca, and others while also retaining its utility as a defensive pivot. Its spreads are pretty customisable as well with even max SpD being a considerable option to function as a supportive pivot, albeit a circumstantial one, vs threats like Lele, Kyurem, and Latios, while still being able to decently handle the aforementioned physical threats, albeit also circumstantially. You may be asking if it's worth sacrificing Corv's best defensive utility in its ability to check the named physical threats pretty much all of the time in order to instead check a much wider range of threats some of the time, and the answer is no, no it's usually not worth it and most of the time your main option would be a standard physically-based mixed Def set; but it is an option regardless and just a testament to Corv's potential versatility. Sub/Taunt BU stall breaker options are also worthy of note and do a fine job at what they're intended to, but I've never found myself gravitating towards it personally; the tier is so full of good stall breakers and wall breakers that I have to question just how worth it it is to run the best Defogger in the tier for that particular role instead, but once again it is and option.


2. Heatran
Heatran seriously excels in the tier both offensively and defensively, being able to check threats like Pult, Volc, Clef, and others which can be quite cumbersome to handle otherwise while also being able to 1v1 a good amount of things you'd want to try to check it with like Bro, Blissey, Pex, etc make it crazy good, it's such an awkward mon to deal with generally and is one of the biggest reasons Slowking is so useful. Modest just destroys everything, shit's so dumb. The only four moves it really needs to succeed are Magma Storm, Earth Power, Taunt, and Toxic but other options are abundant; Power Herb Solar Beam is considerable on the right team, you can waste Rocks on it if you're so inclined though it does a fair job as a Rocker too so I can't bash that too much, Protect with Terrain is great, Heavy Slam and Flash Canon are around, it can be very comfortably shaped where needed. I think this list is apparent enough at this point that what I value a lot right now is things that create opportunities, trapping to forcibly remove checks to things and FuturePort + breaker to severely pressure them are two incredibly good ways to do that, especially with the removal of Hidden Power and Z-Moves which were good tack-on options to create lures from nothing in the past, these are the best ways force progress and hold positions now, and it's fun I'm really enjoying the meta playing with these things.


1. Lando-T
I'm not gonna harp on too much about Lando-T. It's Lando-T. Role compression for Electric and Ground immunity, a functional defensive pivot either as a phys Def, SpD, or mixed Def pivot, has Intimidate support to force switches and create positioning opportunities, can effectively run Scarf to function as a scout, revenger, and offensive pivot, has Knock Off utility, Toxic support, can set hazards, can set up with SD, can set up with Rock Polish, can set up with both, can Smack Down Corv and Skarm, can Explode. It's Lando-T. I've personally been using suicide Lead on HO and physically base mixed Def pivot on BO for the most part, but I've got a little bit of everything. I think it serves more utility on a lot of teams right now compared to something like Hippo due to the offensive nature of play right now, Hippo's suited a lot more for longevity and drawing out games and, while it's really fucking good still, that kind of opportunity to fall back on your defensive core so you can curl up in a ball while you get kicked in the back isn't really all that ideal; the combination a good standard bulky Lando can bring in Intimidate, base 145 Atk, Toxic, and U-Turn allows it to very consistently maintain or regain offensive momentum even as a defensive asset, a lot of teams really value that in this meta. It's Lando-T.

Honourable Mentions
these are just sleeper picks, not really honourable mentions. I just want to be a YouTuber


Mandibuzz
Dark type Corviknight. It's good, but it's not Corviknight. Susceptible to Toxic and suffer more if Knocked, but being a Ghost resist that's actually useful is nice to have.


Tapu-Lele
Another kill-all breaker. Everyone I spoke to roasted me for liking Kyu more, but it's my list and I do what I want with it. It's good though.


Garchomp
Versatile monster. Endure Tank Chomp can screw over so many things, good support vs physical breakers like Skewda who threaten a lot of teams. Mixed lead is really cool, I've been digging it lately and it might end up on more of my teams. SD Scale Shot is the one though.


Toxapex
Pex.


Rotom-Wash
Staple pick for the last two gens, it'll be back here too. Defensive pivot that can check Tran and Lando while threatening its potential switch-ins with Wisp, maintaining longevity with Pain Split, or serving as a Defogger if you're so inclined. It's good, don't rule it out in your builds.


Volcarona
Still stupid, still capable of choosing its checks, and I've seen this thing break through Trans on more occasions than I ever should have. Pretty brutal on HO, but VolcSharp on any team structure will put in work.


Bisharp
Speaking of, hey show me your Dark resists.


Crawdaunt
I have finally drunk the Banded juice, and it's pretty sweet. Hey, show me your Dark resists.


Terrakion
Run this with FuturePort and thank me later.


Regieleki
I wrote more about this thing in the Zeraora paragraph than I did about Zeraora. I'll reemphasise though that it is incredibly cute. Not a fan of the suicide Screens set though unless it's on very heavy offence, I much prefer Koko for my general Screens needs.

Overrated Picks none of these mons are bad, I just think they're over-credited


Tapu-Koko
This thing is ass as a Boots pivot. It's an offensive pivot but it's not really all that offensive and it doesn't really do anything in general. It hits like a heavy sneeze, has no Knock Off utility, is the very very bare minimum of what I'd consider adequate speed control. Zera at least has a relevant speed tier and the right coverage to make use of it, allowing it to function as a great revenge killer and can be deceptively potent with FuturePort support, it will force progress. Koko doesn't really do anything, it has greater longevity for sure but being able to spend longer in the game doing very little is not a trade off I'd make when I can spend less time doing more. U-Turn is a good asset to have so it can actually pivot off its Ground checks I'll credit it that, but all I see it best as is a Screens setter with Taunt and Terrain setting for Lucha.


Tornadus-T
Similar to Koko above, though I do prefer it as an offensive pivot thanks to Knock Off and Taunt being very free and disruptive. I just think its pivot set lacks in all of offensive utility, defensive utility, and speed control, falling just short of the mark on all fronts; it makes me hesitant to dedicate a whole slot purely for that support alone, it feels more like a mosquito that you can't swat rather than the wolf at the door. Taunt Nasty Plot is an incredible stall breaker if it hits, but it won't so... yeah.


Weavile
This thing isn't bad by any stretch, but I do feel like it's a passing fad. If you want a potent Ice breaker you run Kyurem, if you want a ridiculous Banded Knock Off you run Daunt, if you want a good anti-offence option you run Pult or Zera or Rilla etc, if you want to do multiple of these things then you run those mons together, they gel well enough that it's not much effort to do so. I feel like Weav is a very specific kind of role compression that's desirable in the moment but is ultimately not gonna have the staying power to last through meta shifts the way most of the above will.


Clefable
Gone are the days when this thing was mandatory on all teams. I think without having to cripplingly rely on this thing to check very specific things the meta's opened up with a lot of very effective defensive structures that exclude our little alien friend here. I have not once gravitated towards Clef for its utility set, I considered it as a stall option on some builds, and I have a CM set on one of my more gimmicky teams where it pulls weight but feels often times on the match up fishy side. With the great offensive beasts of the tier freed up nicely, Clef's defensive limitations do start to feel more noticeable now I find. I see it returning at some point, but I don't think now is that point.

Don't forget to SMASH the motherfuckin' Like button!
 

Finchinator

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I (and I think a lot of the rest of the thread) would definitely be interested in your views on the metagame at present, particularly what sort of stuff could become more important soon (outside of the fairly obvious ones like Scizor, Kyurem, Lele, etc).
I'd like to think that I share my thoughts on the metagame often enough, but here are some Pokemon I feel are underrated right now:
  • :Corviknight: with Iron Defense and speed investment in order to avoid getting consistently trapped by Magnezone is pretty clutch. It also makes it so that Swords Dance Garchomp, hyper offensive teams as a whole, and the physically offensive Grasses are countered pretty hard when they can get out of hand otherwise with minimal chip or a Knock Off previously.
  • :Hydreigon: with Superpower + Flash Cannon + Draco Meteor + Roost is an underrated lure when paired with Choice Specs Dragapult or Kyurem. Being able to do a great deal to Clefable, Blissey, Heatran, and Tyranitar all in one set while still having recovery is fun. Rather than a one-at-a-time, clunkier sweeper, Hydreigon functions as a mixed wallbreaker.
  • :Heatran: with Taunt + Magma Storm + Earth Power + Body Press. Body Press is the key here -- if you pair it with Tapu Lele or Choice Specs Dragapult, then you are able to catch and trap Blissey or Tyranitar, opening the game wide open. This also can help force Roosts from Hydreigon and avoid risking Magma Storm accuracy in certain scenarios.
  • :Scizor: is a sneaky good sweeping option when you do not face Toxapex and defensively it can shut down some Kyurem, Clefable, and Rillaboom sets, carving out quite the niche for it. It also checks Weavile, which is a promising recent prospect in the metagame.
  • :Urshifu: (Rapid) is pretty strong. It needs support -- likely Future Sight or Spikes, but it can absolutely thrive in the right match-up and even with support in less ideal match-ups. I prefer Choice Band to Protective Pads, but both have unique enough niches to generate discussion and warrant usage.
  • :Glastrier: is amazingly bulky and strong. It does not outright check or counter much at all, but standalone it is great at forcing trades. If you build your team well, you may be able to fit it and work towards making those trades favorable for your teammates. It is not the most consistently worthwhile Pokemon given its speed limitations, but there are still some upsides here.
As for the tier as a whole, I find the metagame to be good, but not great. The quickbans improved teambuilding and the tier as a whole, but at times I find games to be repetitive and even uncompetitive with certain fringe/match-up strategies seeing consistent usage. Before it was not ideal, but we knew what we had to manage and games were arguably won by the better player just as often, if not more. I think the metagame is still developing lots though, so it would be silly to say the tier is in a suboptimal state or stagnant state -- neither would be true. I personally think we should look into retests moving forward as nothing strikes me as too broken in the tier right now and there is no reason to hesitate exploring what could be.

Hope this helps
 
  • :Glastrier: is amazingly bulky and strong. It does not outright check or counter much at all, but standalone it is great at forcing trades. If you build your team well, you may be able to fit it and work towards making those trades favorable for your teammates. It is not the most consistently worthwhile Pokemon given its speed limitations, but there are still some upsides here.
how would you reccomend using glastrier, with screens,TR(yh I know TR is bad but still), or just by itself?
 

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