Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

The problem with that set is that Modest Tran Earth Power has a roll to OHKO. While very rare, they DO exist. It's better to just focus on trapping Tran as much as you can, when you run a set like this -

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat

This set guaranteed lives a EP from Modest Tran after rocks. However, even this set is not guaranteed to work as a 0 SpAtk Tran has a roll to not even do enough with Magma Storm to this set to get reverse KOed from Mirror Coat. On min roll, Max HP Tran only takes 87% back from Mirror Coat. On the plus side, this set does take 2 Lava Plumes from Tran, only seen on 0 SpAtk variants, so you could trap even those rare variants.

I think 87 min not too bad and you have roll to still kill from full however, it is not in your favor at all. You technically can just ignore Modest as they are very rare and then this problem goes away but this set will work against all variants except the even rarer specs versions and eruption variants. At the end of the day Zone is just isn't meant to trap Tran. We can kind of try with this but it there a lot of variants that still won't get trapped by this. It is impossible to umbrella trap all Tran variants with a Zone.
It definitely isn't, but this set has merits outside of somewhat trapping Heatran. Anything that can or has the potential to remove Heatran from the game AND do something else deserves attention. It still traps Skarmory and a chipped Corviknight well, plus with the increased SpDef bulk it's able to actually switch once or twice into STABs from stuff that it can immediately threaten back (Kyurem, Lele, Tornadus, Zapdos, even Specs Pult only 3HKOs with Shadow Ball), also Body Press is an interesting move for AV sets for the aforementioned reasons. I think AV Mirror Coat is an underexplored set
 
It definitely isn't, but this set has merits outside of somewhat trapping Heatran. Anything that can or has the potential to remove Heatran from the game deserves attention. It still traps Skarmory and a chipped Corviknight well, plus with the increased SpDef bulk it's able to actually switch once or twice into STABs from stuff that it can immediately threaten back (Kyurem, Lele, Tornadus, Zapdos, even Specs Pult only 3HKOs with Shadow Ball), also Body Press is an interesting move for AV sets for the aforementioned reasons. I think AV Mirror Coat is an underexplored set
I agree, I have used it a lot, dont know why players dont consider ir more. Trapping tran is a bigger deal than ferro itself. Helps with koko and dragapult but in some matches it isnt useful because u lack power and speed but the reward are huge like removing tran can let stuff like volc and Banded tini to be a big deal
 
Magnet Pull is, as defined by the community in the Arena Trap suspect, objectively broken. No one can successfully tell me that Magnet trapping is something that rewards skillful play or that makes OU more fun. It's just something we're used to just like how Arena Trap is something we were "used to" for a decade or so until we decided it wasn't something we wanted in our meta.

Similarly trapping moves are also objectively bad for the meta. Is getting your Pokémon Blocked and PP stalled by Toxapex a rewarding experience? How about weird niche trappers like Whirlpool Urshifu or just fucking regular old Magma Storm Heatran? Remember that Sub Whirlpool Protective Pads Dracovish from pre-DLC 1? Oh yes, such a good mechanic.

Switching is considered a huge part of 6v6 singles battles and moves / abilities that restrict this are opposite to a skilled meta that champions player ability over game mechanics. However there are a lot of broken mechanics in Pokémon. Sure Magnet Pull is broken but so is the random 85-100% damage roll, 6.25% crit ratio, and even things like damage matchup or secondary effects like tbolt para. There's a lot to this game that rewards luck / game mechanics > skill.

So the question isn't what is broken, but what's SO broken that Pokémon feels like luck vs skill, or what is so overwhelmingly dominating that you feel like you constantly need to alter your team to handle it. Yeah Maggy is bullshit but you see it one in 25 battles, or 1 in 10 at 1825+. You're probably going to lose more matches to crits or secondary effects than Magnet Trap. How often will you lose to Block Toxapex? Probably even less so.

tl;dr Imo trapping moves / abilities are objectively broken and not good for the meta. No one "likes" getting trapped and running a Shed Shell is a huge opportunity cost for something that will show up once every 10 games at best (and can be Knocked Off). However Smogon only has so many "ban" silver bullets before things get silly. Fire those bullets at game breaking Ubers like Spectrier or Zamazenta. Trapping makes the game worse but so do a lot of Pokémon mechanics. At its core Pokémon has a lot of luck and bad traits, but that's just part of it. There's only so much you can ban before you might as well just play a different game.
 
Moving away from the discussion about Magnezone for awhile, I would like a small suggestion with regards to suspect test requirements: increase the minimum number of games required to 50, while keeping GXE requirements constant (i.e. 80%).

I shall preface this post with quotes made by Finchinator in the Zamazenta-C suspect NP thread.
" (see: only playing from 1000 to 1600 or so to get reqs over a small sample size -- this is nowhere near close to getting a full picture of the metagame and makes me wonder if a better system is needed in the future) "
" I urge people to actually play more than the bare minimum and see if the playstyles you feel are made significantly worse are actually worse -- spoiler alert: it is not that straight forward. "

I wholeheartedly agree that playing only 30 games or so may not be the best way to go about making an informed decision, because firstly, such a small sample size is most likely not representative of the OU metagame, and secondly, the level of play at mid-ladder and high-ladder (above 1700s) is significantly different. So why not simply increase the minimum number of games required to 50? The OU ladder is very active and constantly see a high volume of battles daily. As such, players do not need to wait as long to find a battle (as compared to the lower tiers). Furthermore, players with similar Elo/skill level will more likely be matched in a battle, thereby forcing players to spend just a little more time working their way further up the ladder beyond the 1600s to achieve reqs.

I believe that playing at least 50 games is reasonable and is at least able to alleviate the problem of getting reqs over a small sample size, and hope that the OU council will consider this proposal.
 
tl;dr Imo trapping moves / abilities are objectively broken and not good for the meta
Oh boy. I was kind of worried that this train of thought was going to go here eventually, but I was debating whether to say something since I didn't want to trot out the old slippery-slope fallacy. That if Magnet Pull needed to be banned because consistency, what was to stop trapping moves from facing the banhammer on the same principle? And yet, apparently this argument was more than just a possibility.

Even if we argue that Magnet Pull should inherently be banned for consistency with the Shadow Tag and Arena Trap bans, I would argue that trapping moves are inherently less overwhelming since a) you have to manually activate it and b) using a trapping move demands a precious move slot, meaning you will often have to sacrifice another potentially good move. And, to be blunt, most trapping moves frankly suck. Outside of Magma Storm, when is the last time you actually saw any trapping moves being used on a consistent basis? As good as trapping inherently is, most trapping moves are just too weak for serious competitive play. Not to mention using trapping moves effectively requires you to stay in, and given that your opponent can always just switch out before you use the move, it can potentially turn into a disadvantage for the trapper. Are we really going to argue that fricking Bind needs to be banned even though literally no one actually uses it? What about Jaw Lock? It traps the opponent, and should on this principle be banned,- and it also inherently sucks because you can easily trap yourself with a mon that destroys you. Pretty much the only good user of trapping moves in OU is Magma Storm Heatran, and while that move is strong it also has low PP and will often miss when you need it most due to shaky accuracy.

This is the main reason why I can't agree with Magnet Pull being banned solely for consistency. While arguing that trapping in and of itself is broken has a certain line of logic to it, it is still technically an arbitrary distinction to make; there has never been any official line about switching being a "fundamental part of the game" from Game Freak or TPC (you can play plenty of battles in-game without switching), so ultimately that is something that we the playerbase made up, even if it was logical to do so. And with that in mind, is it really logical to ban a whole subset of moves solely to comply with some principle based on arbitrary criteria even when those moves largely don't do anything? This kind of mindset is also why I'm iffy about banning King's Rock; if we establish flinch as something inherently uncompetitive, then doesn't "consistency" demand we also ban Serene Grace because of flinch hax? Doesn't it demand we ban Stench because it can cause additional flinches, even though none of Stench's users are OU, nor do they even use Stench since all have strictly superior abilities? If you're really going to argue we go this far to prevent any kind of trapping, then what's to stop the argument that banning an item for flinch-hax means we should eliminate all other sources of flinch-hax?

Sure, your specific example of Block Toxapex does not sound like a particularly pleasant experience. Then again, neither does your attacker getting paralyzed by Zapdos' Static and being fully-paralyzed four turns in a row leading to them getting KOed. Is that unfair? Yes. Does that mean Static should be banned because something like that could happen? Of course not. That would be both arbitrary and stupid. As annoying as it is, we can't ban things, especially not whole concepts, just because it can be annoying. I find Toxapex very annoying, but that doesn't mean it needs to get banned; as much as I hate it, I can acknowledge that Crown Tundra has added a good deal of somewhat reliable counters to this mon. I also find it funny this was your first example because if anything banning trapping as a whole would probably benefit stall more than anything else; after all, Magma Storm Heatran mainly exists to be a stallbreaker. And trust me, stall does not need anymore help in the current meta; those mons are perfectly viable, they make up a good percentage of the meta, they're doing fine.

Bottom line, if we do decide to ban Magnet Pull, we should at least have more of a reason than just "because consistency", because otherwise we're inviting this exact kind of overly-general argument. And as for banning trapping moves- no.
 
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Finchinator

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Switching is a fundamental part of how we play our game, but that does not mean you can go out of your way to remove every single measure that prohibits it. Bolding things from posts pertaining to older metagames with different contexts pertains very little to anything happening right now.

We have to look at things in the context of our current metagame and ask if specific exploits are broken or not, uncompetitive or not, etc. when determining banworthiness. There is absolutely a practical side to things that applies to any given metagame state where these matters are being discussed. For many years, Dugtrio and even Gothitelle were allowed in OU generations due to lack of usage and limited practical applications. Eventually they grew in effectivneess and became problematic, so they were looked at. We are not going to ban things "just because", but rather due to the metagame we are playing warranting that line of action.

I personally would be content looking into Magnet Pull if people felt it was problematic in the metagame. Do I think it is? Not quite currently, but I am just one person and I value the feedback I get from others a lot. This is why I keep up with this thread, my PMs, the surveys, and so much more -- I ant to understand the perception of the players who know the metagame well. I know some posters in this thread and experienced players like WoF feel that way and I am happy to bring that up in the council -- which, by the way, will be having a new "council minutes" thread to keep everyone in the loop in the near future. However, if people are going to simply play the "this similar thing happened in the past, so we must act the same here" without backing it up, then we're going in the wrong direction and that is absolutely not exemplary of justified opinions backed by metagame experience that will do anyone any good. There's a fine line that we have to toe with these discussions in order to remain relevant and keep moving forward rather than dwelling on the past and going in circles, so let's keep that in mind.
 
Honestly it's bizarre to me that this is the generation that the Magnet Pull discussions seem to be picking up steam, given how this is the generation that Magnezone has the fewest potential victims since its inception. The difference between Arena Trap/Shadow Tag vs. Magnet Pull is obvious: the number of Pokémon trapped by the former two is incomparably higher. Due to this, the number of Pokémon that can be trapped and removed even by pathetic users of the former abilities like Wynaut and Trapinch is more than Magnezone. It doesn't put nearly as much of a matchup reliance strain on team building. Magnezone isn't totally useless if there isn't a Steel type on the opposing team. Compare this to Gen 5 Diglett which was incredibly useless against most teams but basically caused an auto-loss of sand balance against HO sun at team preview. None of this is nearly as relevant as the fact, though, that most well built teams will only have one, maybe two, Pokémon that can be trapped and removed by a single set. And in most cases, Magnezone's trapping of one of those will preclude it from being healthy enough to reliably trap the other. The consistency argument plainly doesn't apply given its trap targets aren't particularly synergetic with one another and often can't be trapped by the same set if they do end up on the same team. If Magnet Pull suddenly became capable of trapping more than a single type, maybe this would be worth revisiting.
 
Honestly it's bizarre to me that this is the generation that the Magnet Pull discussions seem to be picking up steam, given how this is the generation that Magnezone has the fewest potential victims since its inception.
A lot of players right now are probably young so perhaps many of them don't remember when magnezon was closer to be op with hp fire (before that megas were even introduced).

Ban slowtwins and magmastorm/sandtomb and maybe the metagame will be truly balanced when we will have 6 toxapex vs 6 toxapex lol.

anyway, rillaboom definitely deserves A+ especially after the ban of zama, everyone and their mothers use it, the steel birds are easily pressured and this mon is really splashable because it counters HO but at the same time it's a staple in various HO archetypes.
Why this mon is still A after so long goes beyond my comprehension.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I still think that if anything remotely related to trapping is allowed in the tier, then the council should at least make an official statement about what exactly is competitive or not. At any rate, I'm not gonna rant anymore, for now, about magnet pull since I've already made my case

I just wanna know, am I the only one who thinks that Zamazenta was tested at a wrong time? I mean, some arguments on why it should be banned was what it could do with support, which I personally don't agree since for me, what determines whether a mon is banworthy or not is what it can do on its own and anything it can do with support would be just icing on the cake. Of course, the support I'm talking about is future sight, which there were a few cases, reasonable ones at that I've bumped into these dumbass future sight Zama thing. I won't go into much detail since it has already been mentioned a lot that future sight when combined with teleport is fucking stupid so I'll just get to the point. Am I the only one who thinks that we should have looked at future sight first before the suspect?

Don't get me wrong, I know there were other arguments that Zama's ridiculous bulk and speed made it somewhat difficult to check or about how it would warp the tier. I could understand those parts since I have played against a lot of Zamazentas but what I'm curious about is the future sight. Zama is just one more in the long list of pokemon that abuses this combo but its own unique characteristics allowed it to somewhat stand out among others that abuses it. So, am I the only who think that future sight, or along with its partner, teleport, should have been a priority before Zama?
 
I really felt on reading some of the previous replies that people were underselling Zone a bit much. Both sides always kind of knowingly exaggerate to prove their points but I still kind of wanted to talk about Zone after using the balloon set of his-

Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Modest Nature
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 220 Def / 200 SpA / 88 Spe
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon

This set 2HKOes defensive Lando with Rocks up and still able OHKO Max Max Ferro at +6. Set to outspeed Skarmory.

I think Air Balloon is much better than Leftovers because then you can even trap Exca (from around 70%) and Melly while Ferro is still guaranteed. (Not factoring in Flinches or Crits ofc). The real strength of this however is that it is not useless when it's targets don't show up. Stab thunderbolt is still pretty good in OU and the Flash Cannon accompanying can 2HKO the ground types. In matches that you aren't planning in setting up iron defense body press, a one time EQ immunity really makes it difficult to play around instead of lefties that don't do anything in that scenario.

Now, I saw a post that even considers Skarmory and Corvi as unreliable to be trapped by such this set. But it is definitely able to trap those 2. It traps Ferro unless it comes in on a Body Press directly. It is able to trap Exca from 70% unless iron head flinch. It is able to trap Melly if it is able to come in cleanly at full. It is able to trap Bish if it gets in cleanly or switches into iron head. It is able to trap scarf kart locked into any move besides sacred sword. Non Uturn Scisor and non Uturn Spdef also get trapped.

Tbh the only mons that can't be trapped at all with this set are Tran, opposing Zone (it's a 50/50) and Aegis.

The mons I mentioned above have tools to take care of Zone and even kill but you can't just give credit to the player playing against the trapper to prevent such scenarios. A component player can and will make these scenarios happen and trap them. A single Zone can't trap a Ferro and a Melly but it can trap a Steel bird + some from the above list.

You can say that, see that makes it balanced, it is required to be played correctly with skill to do it's job but technically all trappers had that requirement of getting in safely vs it's target. And the biggest problem is that the trapper only is required to do that once while the trapped is required to do that until the trapper faints. That skewed the interaction in trapper's favour. This is the same scenario like that of other trapping abilities and is similarly uncompetitive albeit with a fewer targets but the principal works similarly.

However, if switching is not considered fundamental part of the game then I don't have an argument for Magnet Pull. I am calling for it being uncompetitive on the precedent I have seen, not broken. At the end of the day it is basically what the community wants.
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
I still think that if anything remotely related to trapping is allowed in the tier, then the council should at least make an official statement about what exactly is competitive or not.
This is an impossible ask. On the general side, we have a publicized tiering policy framework that gives definitions and whatnot. However, applying this principal to the current metagame is oftentimes a matter of opinion and can be discussed on dozens of different fronts. There’s a reason why we have suspect discussions, votes, and surveys — the community decides what is banworthy (I.e: broken, uncompetitive, etc.) more often than not and that’s how the system is designed. We are already working towards being more publicized with council minutes coming soon and me posting frequently, but this ask is not particularly reasonable for any council or leading group that assigns power to their community.


I just wanna know, am I the only one who thinks that Zamazenta was tested at a wrong time?
This and the entire second half of your post has no place here. It’s a thread clearly geared towards current metagame discussion; it’s been made public repeatedly that if you have issues with timing or process, you can PM the council. There cannot possibly be anything gained by this and you know that.
 
Magnet pull in principle is no different than Shadow tag, as far as uncompetitiveness goes. Think about the fact that in the early and even in much of the middle game, you typically, on any given turn, have 4 moves to choose from with the mon you currently have out, and in your pokeballs you have 5 other mons to choose from as possible switchins. That means you typically have 9 options to choose from on a given turn at this stage. Shadow Tag and Magnet pull, limits your ability to switch. This means at the most, your usual 9 options have been cut down by more than half, from 9 to 4.

Meanwhile, your opponent will still have up to their usual 9 options still available, not only easing prediction for the trapping player, but ensuring that they can likely remove the trapped mon from the game, while still almost always having the option to switch out when the trapped players bring in his or her next mon for an attempted revenge kill. But it's even worse than that. usuallly, the trapping mon will only stay in on a mon that can't threaten it back, so those 4 move options the trapped mon has are usually useless, which means there is nothing at all a more skilled player can do to salvage that situation.

Furthermore, The trapping ability also gives initiative and momentum to the trapper, even if the trapper doesn't actually KO the mon being trapped, as now the trapper can just double switch out to a setup sweeper that can set up on the trapped mon, while the double switching option isn't really an option for the trapped.


Trapping abilities make the mon(s) they trap a liability to have on the enemy team. This means that the onus is on the other player to either risk losing the mon trapped by shadow tag, creating holes in their offense and defense, or losing momentum. which means the risk of switching your mon in and keeping it in is very high, effectively making that slot useless.

HOWEVER, Magnet Pull and Shadow Tag/Arena Trap are practically different in the current metagame in that Shadow tag can be used to trap any mon in the metagame, while magnet pull works specifically on steels which are popular but usually only take 2 slots on an enemy team at most. Magnet pull is thus far more matchup-reliant. Shadow tag's various users thus have the powerful ability to allow a player to remove at least one key threat on an enemy team. And this is not even getting into the fact that the only real viable user of Magnet pull (Magnezone) can only viably trap a limited number of steel types in OU due to its own other issues that are independent of Magnet Pull as an ability.

So every so often, teams that rely on certain steel types as their main line of defense against the threats Magnezone is often paired with, will have to play very riskily with their steel type in terms of deciding when to switch it in or not, or when to switch out. In matchups where this isn't the case, Magnet pull doesn't matter. So it still creates a matchup issue ( some games decided at team preview) but just not as often or as severe.

According to the cited framework, Matchup issues are only bad when the amount of viable counter-teams to a strategy is so low that the meta becomes overcentralized, in other words the matchups outside of the nice teams that can be used for counterplay are otherwise so bad that there is no skillful decision making that can be viably used in-game to overcome the other team's kryptonite to your team. So either everyone ends up running that overpowered strategy or the niche counter-team, or it becomes a mix where running the counter to said overpowered strategy leaves you unable to beat the few other more moderately powerful but still viable strategies due to matchup.

I don't think Magnet Pull ( or Magnezone) will have these kinds of effects on the current meta any time soon, for the same reason they didn't in the previous generations because Magnezone and (Magnet pull) as they are now are not powerful and versatile enough to put a huge enough constraint on teambuilding or create a Rock/paper Scissors metagame.
 
Am I the only one who thinks the meta game is perfectly fine right now? There are obviously stronger mons then others, but I don’t think there are any threats that cannot be handled at all. If I had to ban one thing, it would probably have to be Heavy Duty Boots. Personally I think that boots have warped the meta game around them completely. Most teams have 3-4 members running boots and it gets to the point where running defog isn’t a necessity anymore. Boots make pivot cores extremely potent and it makes it really hard to punish certain mons without helmet or rough skin. I think suspecting boots in the future would be nice to see.
 
Am I the only one who thinks the meta game is perfectly fine right now? There are obviously stronger mons then others, but I don’t think there are any threats that cannot be handled at all. If I had to ban one thing, it would probably have to be Heavy Duty Boots. Personally I think that boots have warped the meta game around them completely. Most teams have 3-4 members running boots and it gets to the point where running defog isn’t a necessity anymore. Boots make pivot cores extremely potent and it makes it really hard to punish certain mons without helmet or rough skin. I think suspecting boots in the future would be nice to see.
I completely disagree. Boots have considerably opened up team building, with bulky pivots being able to run on more offensive squads for the first time in generations. It might feel stifling because the metagame has been centralized around hazards at different levels for 6 generations. Stealth Rock for instance in gen 4 was far more centralizing than boots has ever been this Gen, to the point where being down 5-6 with your opponent's lead at full health could be worth it if you got rocks up. The fact that teams no longer have to run removal techniques is a testament to freeing up team building, not restricting it. There is also significant counterplay, specifically knock off which is incredibly easy to slot on a team. Compare this to rapid spin in Gen 3-5 which could only be run on certain archetypes due to its limited distribution among often subpar Pokémon. I think the problem is really the Regenerator mons that abuse the strategy, with Slowking, Tornadus-T and Toxapex all potentially being broken. However, I'm not settled on all of these and could potentially see all of them being manageable long term. The fact that the absurd overabundance of Landorus-T, Ferrothorn and Heatran that we have all incessantly endured for the last decade is curtailed slightly points to the way the item opens up the metagame.
 
The way I see it, there's 2 separate discussions:
1: Is Magnezone/Magnet Pull overpowered?
2: Is Magnet Pull uncompetitive?

On 1, all I can say is that Magnezone is A- on the viability rankings and I tend to agree with that. It's annoying, sometimes it shows up and is designed specifically to counter your steel and you have to heavily play around it, but IMO that says more about how hard teambuilding in this tier is already. Magnezone isn't the problem, it's just that sweepers are dangerous enough that any additional pressure on your counter can wreck your team. (see also: Future Sight, King's Rock, etc)
2 is more interesting. Either all trapping abilities are uncompetitive, in which case ban Magnet Pull, or trapping abilities are fine, trapping mons can be broken, in which case ban Gothitelle/Dugtrio and test the Eviolite Trappers. I don't really like either of those solutions, but if we want a coherent ruleset that values precedent, those are the options.
 
Just saying that if you think that Boots have warped the Meta around them, then you must accept that Stealth Rock has done exactly the same since DPP. I personally would be fine with banning Boots if either Spikes or Rocks go with them too. But it’s better to leave everything unbanned and just don,t have hazards as your main win condition.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Apologies for my last comment. Dunno what I was thinking there but was legit curious

But anyway, I wanted to share a mon that has been doing a decent amount of work for me but I just haven't found the right team for it yet. It's nothing too original because this set has been around since this mon was introduced


:choice scarf::sm/garchomp::choice scarf:
Ra's al Ghul (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Brick Break


I asked about this in the sqsa thread and the ones who answered basically said the same thing, it sucks. When I tried it, it really sucks but that's exactly why this mon was so effective. Garchomp these days are like 60% sd scale shot, 25% tank and 15% mixed, on a wild guess. This set is mostly outclassed by Lando but because of that mindset, it actually gave me a lot of advantage in a battle. Now, I was looking at the viability list and I wanted to use a mon that is a terrifying wall breaker but is held back due to the presence of all the speedsters in the tier. That pokemon was nasty plot Hydreigon with life orb and that mon has a lot of issues including it being revenge killed by stuff like Dragapult, cc Zeraora and especially Tapu Koko. So, I was looking for a mon that would be able to kill them all in one shot. Naturally scarf Lando is the most obvious candidate but the problem is, no sane person is ever gonna leave those three out against a Lando until they are sure it's not scarfed. This is where Garchomp comes in and destroys these mons

It works really great because Dragapult and Weavile are never gonna switch out of a Garchomp due to how much scarf Chomp sucks and many like to lead off with them because of their speed or other reasons, which means that on the very first turn of battle, I can already secure an advantage by getting rid of the fast threat, allowing my Hydreigon, or any other wall breaker for that matter, to go brrrr. Tapu Koko is also on the same boat because it is almost always gonna u turn or dazzling gleam against Chomp, only to be surprised when I reveal my hand. I won't deny, this set is incredibly one dimensional and is probably only used for this specific purpose

The other thing that I like about this set is that I am given an offensive answer to Volcarona and its stupid fucking boots. Everyone here already knows I'm the number one boots hater. I won't talk about that too much since Garchomp has been revenge killing stuff before it faded out of existence in gen seven. This set is just my personal preference. I gave my Garchomp brick break because I want to kill Weavile as soon as possible. Stone edge does that but I'm not gonna risk my surprise factor in the hands of a fifty percent accurate move. I also chose dragon claw over outrage because locking into outrage on the first turn can be really annoying

On first glance this also means that this set is only limited to the first turn but that's not necessarily the case. With some of the volt turns running around, it can actually get into position to get rid of the marked targets because of the mindset that its targets are never gonna switch out of it. Even when the jig is up, this can still get work done since its still Garchomp. It always does something no matter what, even if it is just so miniscule such as this

This set sucks, is incredibly one dimensional, needs some kind of support but really, anything that can get rid of these annoying fast threats is always something worth checking out for me especially if I can get rid of them on the first turn
 
I'm not getting behind the "meta is balanced" thing. Because it is simply not the case.

This is a false impression. The meta is far from being balanced or perfectly fine. There's one big issue: There's too much threats one team should be prepared for: Dragapult, Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Tornadus-Therian, Rillaboom, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Zeraora, Weavile, Toxapex, Blissey and Heatran, just to name a few. Teambuilding rn is really difficult.

Let's take this team I've made for exemple:

https://pokepast.es/ac8238dae077660b

Pretty straight forward team. It cover a vast portion of the threat list... except one: Specs Dragapult.
Indeed, each time he comes, he claims or 2HKO a mon on my team:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 355-418 (104.1 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 280-330 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 319-376 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 154-183 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 668-788 (210.7 - 248.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Several options exist to make my team less weak to Specs Dragapult:

Switching Corviknight for Mandibuzz (even tho Draco Meteor hits it hard) but then, my team will get 6-0 by Weavile.
Making Heatran Specially Defensive. But I will lose its wallbreaking potential (but not its stallbreaking).
Somehow finding a room for a Calm Clefable, maybe instead of Slowking, making my team weaker to Lele but let it handles Kyurem a bit better.
I need Dragapult for my team not to be 6-0 by SubRoost Kyurem.
etc...

I can't modify my team without exposing it to another threat. The only option that would not make me change my team is to turn Heatran into a SpDef Wall, making my team a semi-stall (and I probably need to put a Specs on Dragapult). And making the match-up against Kyurem and Lele a bit easier.

Down the line, some Pokemon on that threat list needs to go, to ease the teambuilding process.
I feel like there's no solid building actually without 50/50 situations against some matchup.
Also opposite team's objective is to overhelm your defensive answers and this meta have a great breaking potential, that's why people complain about future-sight ; magnet-pull ; heatran ; rillaboom ; etc..... searching to ban "the" breaking presence that will easier building process.
Conclusion = solidity of your team rely on your playing skills with predictions.

► some ideas for your building :
_:dragapult::choice-scarf:
_:rillaboom::kartana: (:choice-scarf: / :life-orb:)
_:slowking::blissey: (t-wave spam for orb-kartana)
 
I'm not getting behind the "meta is balanced" thing. Because it is simply not the case.

This is a false impression. The meta is far from being balanced or perfectly fine. There's one big issue: There's too much threats one team should be prepared for: Dragapult, Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Tornadus-Therian, Rillaboom, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Zeraora, Weavile, Toxapex, Blissey and Heatran, just to name a few. Teambuilding rn is really difficult.

Let's take this team I've made for exemple:

https://pokepast.es/ac8238dae077660b

Pretty straight forward team. It cover a vast portion of the threat list... except one: Specs Dragapult.
Indeed, each time he comes, he claims or 2HKO a mon on my team:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 355-418 (104.1 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 280-330 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 319-376 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 154-183 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 668-788 (210.7 - 248.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Several options exist to make my team less weak to Specs Dragapult:

Switching Corviknight for Mandibuzz (even tho Draco Meteor hits it hard) but then, my team will get 6-0 by Weavile.
Making Heatran Specially Defensive. But I will lose its wallbreaking potential (but not its stallbreaking).
Somehow finding a room for a Calm Clefable, maybe instead of Slowking, making my team weaker to Lele but let it handles Kyurem a bit better.
I need Dragapult for my team not to be 6-0 by SubRoost Kyurem.
etc...

I can't modify my team without exposing it to another threat. The only option that would not make me change my team is to turn Heatran into a SpDef Wall, making my team a semi-stall (and I probably need to put a Specs on Dragapult). And making the match-up against Kyurem and Lele a bit easier.

Down the line, some Pokemon on that threat list needs to go, to ease the teambuilding process.
I think this argument is weak because first of all there is no broken overarching mechanic available (z moves and dynamax especially) AND, most importantly, if you could build the perfect team everyone would use it. It's completely fine and healthy to have this type of issue in the teambuilder. It stimulates creativity and diversification, unlike it would be if there were 2-3 prominent threats. If you remember, when Dracovish was around everyone was running Seismitoad, when Urshifu-Broken was around everyone was running physically defensive Clefable/Tapu Fini + regen core. Now, those two were broken, but the issue is that having a restricted amount of breaking power creates a stale, boring stallish metagame, which is neither balanced or healthy. This is in fact the most balanced SS OU we have since its beginning.

It's kind of funny that you can see that a metagame is balanced when lando-t is firmly #1 in usage: dude's a symbol of balance.
 
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Finchinator

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No single team is perfect, even in the most balanced metagames. Trade-offs exist and we accept that as players of the game. Outlining your team being weak to one or another Pokemon no matter what has absolutely no correlation to a subpar metagame state given the small sample of one player and one team.

This meta can use improvement and I do not think it is perfectly balanced, but the point above should not be how we approach arguing any of this.
 
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Yeah specs Dragapult is quite limiting in the builder. Most checks like Clefable and Hippowdon aren't as reliable as I'd like since they need to at almost full health and are prone to getting worn down / screwed over by Shadow Ball SpDef drops. It feels like I need to run Tyraniatar / Blissey on almost every team just so pult doesn't claim a kill everytime it switches in. It doesn't help that nearly every Dragapult switch-in is passive (though tbf, it does have a fair amount of offensive counterplay like Weavile, Bisharp, etc.). I'm not sure if its necessarily broken, but I do find it much harder to deal with than other meta-defining threats like Landorus-t and even Zamazenta-C when it was being tested.
 
Yeah specs Dragapult is quite limiting in the builder. Most checks like Clefable and Hippowdon aren't as reliable as I'd like since they need to at almost full health and are prone to getting worn down / screwed over by Shadow Ball SpDef drops. It feels like I need to run Tyraniatar / Blissey on almost every team just so pult doesn't claim a kill everytime it switches in. It doesn't help that nearly every Dragapult switch-in is passive (though tbf, it does have a fair amount of offensive counterplay like Weavile, Bisharp, etc.). I'm not sure if its necessarily broken, but I do find it much harder to deal with than other meta-defining threats like Landorus-t and even Zamazenta-C when it was being tested.
to deal with Dragapult, I stole the idea of running spdef Heatran and Clefable on the same team. As a result, the balance team I copied that had this core didn't have much trouble with Dragapult.
 
View attachment 336811
^ me waiting for a Dragapult suspect

It’s a huge creativity bottleneck when there’s an objectively best offensive mon in the tier that clicks u-turn and shadow ball endlessly. I miss pursuit more every day, there’s little way to punish pult rn (old gen specs lati had to be a little strategic if you had a Tyranitar, pult just does whatever it wants all game).
An example of dragapult's overcentralizing nature can be seen in
to deal with Dragapult, I stole the idea of running spdef Heatran and Clefable on the same team. As a result, the balance team I copied that had this core didn't have much trouble with Dragapult.
That is a lot to check ONE pokemon.

IMO, the main checks/counters to Dragapult that people cite are:
Bisharp (lol, substitute mindgames, flamethrower, cant swap in)
Blissey (U-Turn or physical sets say hi)
Clefable (doesn't like eating a shadow ball let alone with chip from uturn: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Corvi (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 169-201 (42.2 - 50.2%) )
Heatran (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 126-148 (32.6 - 38.3%) )
Hippowdon (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 348-409 (82.8 - 97.3%) )
Mandibuzz (OK you got me here, but Draco still does over half and has a chance to 2hko- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-424 (84.6 - 100.2%) )
Zeraora (Cannot come in)
Tyranitar (Draco does 1/3. Enough said)

worth noting that while modest kinda sucks, it also makes a lot of these calcs even worse- also DD is very strong and hex willo sets and scarf sets are also lurking somewhere

TLDR: There is quite limited counterplay to dragapult in the current metagame, and it is more than deserving of at least a suspect.
 
An example of dragapult's overcentralizing nature can be seen in

That is a lot to check ONE pokemon.

IMO, the main checks/counters to Dragapult that people cite are:
Bisharp (lol, substitute mindgames, flamethrower, cant swap in)
Blissey (U-Turn or physical sets say hi)
Clefable (doesn't like eating a shadow ball let alone with chip from uturn: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Corvi (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 169-201 (42.2 - 50.2%) )
Heatran (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 126-148 (32.6 - 38.3%) )
Hippowdon (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 348-409 (82.8 - 97.3%) )
Mandibuzz (OK you got me here, but Draco still does over half and has a chance to 2hko- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-424 (84.6 - 100.2%) )
Zeraora (Cannot come in)
Tyranitar (Draco does 1/3. Enough said)

worth noting that while modest kinda sucks, it also makes a lot of these calcs even worse- also DD is very strong and hex willo sets and scarf sets are also lurking somewhere

TLDR: There is quite limited counterplay to dragapult in the current metagame, and it is more than deserving of at least a suspect.
Even with my team, dd sub pult with that two turn ghost move and dragon stab can be scary if the opponent plays it right.


But it takes a lot of setup
 

Ruft

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An example of dragapult's overcentralizing nature can be seen in

That is a lot to check ONE pokemon.

IMO, the main checks/counters to Dragapult that people cite are:
Bisharp (lol, substitute mindgames, flamethrower, cant swap in)
Blissey (U-Turn or physical sets say hi)
Clefable (doesn't like eating a shadow ball let alone with chip from uturn: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Corvi (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 169-201 (42.2 - 50.2%) )
Heatran (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 126-148 (32.6 - 38.3%) )
Hippowdon (252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 348-409 (82.8 - 97.3%) )
Mandibuzz (OK you got me here, but Draco still does over half and has a chance to 2hko- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-424 (84.6 - 100.2%) )
Zeraora (Cannot come in)
Tyranitar (Draco does 1/3. Enough said)

worth noting that while modest kinda sucks, it also makes a lot of these calcs even worse- also DD is very strong and hex willo sets and scarf sets are also lurking somewhere

TLDR: There is quite limited counterplay to dragapult in the current metagame, and it is more than deserving of at least a suspect.
If you're using Pokemon like Clefable, Corviknight, or Hippowdon as Choice Specs Dragapult checks, they need to have Special Defense investment. Of course you're gonna struggle with Choice Specs Dragapult if your counterplay consists of sending in physical walls. :smogduck:
 

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