Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I was reading that and had a feeling when I opened the spoiler, the first calc would be against bulkarona, haha!

Have been seeing a surprising level of Bulu, I guess it is a bulkier Rillaboom with a secondary typing that is a double edged sword. Could you please expand a bit more on why you prefer assault vest to other items? I have observed that the aggressive sets tend to cover similar threats, except obvious ones like fire and flying type special attackers. Also, in my experience horn leech AV sounds great on paper but is remarkably easy for any common team to play around, so it makes keeping your Bulu in the critical >70% HP threshold very hard!

The aggressive sets don't need to keep Bulu's hp high to check things, as it threatens 2hko's on some of OU's most common switch ins like Skarmory/melmetal/ferrothorn.
Sure Id love to:

There are many reasons as to why I chose AV as the item for my Tapu Bulu set, but I think they can all be summed up to role compression and creating opportunities for my team. With AV Bulu you acquire a great amount of possible switchins for your team that work for scouting sets, checking and countering a big part of our current metagame.

Let me give you an example: my opponent switches in Garchomp and I have a ferrothorn on my team as my defensive wall, many Garchomps nowadays are running a mixed set that likes to surprise Ferrothorn in the switchin with a fireblast that OHKOs, with AV Bulu I can switch into the chomp, survive comfortably the fireblast (which would toast me if I was banded or a stallbreaker taunt set), setup grassy terrain and react/predict what they do from there, if it SDs instead, I can easily go to ferro and win the 1v1 cause of grassy terrain. There are many, many cases like this where AV Bulu covers most if not all the options that my opponent may have, while also providing utility in grassy terrain.

When I look at the advantages of a set like the choiced one, I see that it is still prediction reliant and guessing wrong is much more punishing, given that you dont have that many opportunities to switch in, so I decided that if I was gonna make predictions, I`d rather make many that are not very risky (that still can have high rewards with focus punch), as opposed to making few predictions that are very risky and can have bigger rewards. It may seem like a thing of preference, and this may be my Fighting game background speaking, but I strongly believe that it is more valuable to have multiple opportunities that are not that risky to understand how your opponent plays and reacts, rather than having the pressure to make the few choices that you have be absolutely worth it.

Maybe it would be different if Bulu got u-turn, as it would be easier to cover multiple options, but I dont think that would be faithful to its design, I like to think of Bulu as a 1v1 that has a typing that allows it to switch into a lot of important types (I really think that the fairy type is a little bit too good defensive wise) and forces its opponent to switch out as it probably wont win the 1v1, and that`s when the true fun begins, as it rewards you for staying and switching out too, cause of grassy terrain (which of course also can help ur opponent, but the idea is that you design your team to get the most benefits).

Moving on to another topic, I would like to know where the popular opinions currently stand on HBD, because I really dislike that item and the type of careless gameplay it rewards, in the 1700s its not rare for me to see teams where there are 3 or even 4 mons with boots. I think hazards are the healthiest they`ve ever been and having boots as an extra option is just a little bit too much IMO. Im not saying banning them completely, but I would really like to explore the idea of a clause.

Having said that, I just would like to know where that discussion is headed and what everybody thinks about them ATM.

Thanks for reading until the end
 

Endrism

formerly SlippySlappySwampy
What is the line between broken and proper prediction?
:ss/tapu-lele:

This is a topic that in general seems very interesting to me, we are at a point where the meta is so incredibly power crept that the concept of "unwallable breakers" isn't anything new, just take a look at Tapu Lele in theory it is able to OHKO/2HKO every single mon in the tier with proper predictions, just having to chose between Thunderbolt for Slowking and Psyshock for Blissey/Galarking. OMG Why isnt this already banned?! It literally has no true counters and it only has to chose between 2 moves to just absolutely bust through every defensive core ever! Oh offensive counterplay you say? I can run a scarf and everything is dead! BAN IT NOW!...Do you see the problem with this argument?

The important phrase is proper prediction, the previous argument completely ignores the existance of defensive cores in which lele has to click a specific move to at least 2HKO the mon in front of it. It also assumes that the Lele user is gonna get every single prediction right against you, and it simply isn't about clicking the right move but also predicting your play after scouting what move lele has locked istelf into and bringing the right Pokemon out, and at that point aren't you just getting outplayed? aren't you just the worse player? Prediction in Pokemon isn't just a bunch of 50/50s as other things like knowing to identify wincons, positioning and calculated risks also are a big part of what move is your opponent gonna click, its fine if Pokemon like Tapu Lele takes kills against your team, thats what wallbreakers do...break walls. Sometimes taking kills isn't optimal, as there are ways to abuse your position after killing something, and even if your teamstyle benefits from it (which is why lele is an incredible Pokemon) a list of things that can counter certain Pokemon isn't the end all be all to determine if something is broken.

This segways into something that I really don't like about suspect tests, saying that a Pokemon is broken is really easy, like incredibly so. especially some Dragapult discussion that I've seen recently suffers especially from this, many arguments assume that identifying the set of a mon beforehand is impossible and knowing which move is it gonna click is equally impossible. The same first phrase about Lele in the beginning can be virtually applied to every mon ever, "Oh wdym Toxapex walls Scizor, just U-Turn and knock its shed shell and trap it with Sand Tomb and also bust out the banded Dual Wingbeat for Buzzwole" "Clefable? pfft just SpDef drop it with your Shadow Ball". Pokemon right now are incredibly bulky, versatille and strong thats what happens when power creep becomes too much, especially in a game that also involves a shit ton of prediction and luck. So busting a bunch of calcs and a list of checks/counters simply isn't enough to determine if a mon is broken at this point.
When is prediction healthy and when does it turn uncompetitive/unfair?
I honestly dont know and would like to know y'alls opinions on this​
I love this post right here, and Id like to give my thoughts on it. I believe prediction becomes unhealthy when theres no way to feasibly predict what's about to happen.

Take a game I had 2 days ago. I looked at the team at hand, thought, "Okay, with the amount of physical attackers on this team, that Dragapult is 100% specs, and I need to watch out for threatening shadow balls." So as the game went on Pult made it's first appearance, threatening to KO me. I swap to Blissey obviously knowing even Draco isn't doing much and he clicked dragon dance instead. This was something I could not have anticipated from the start, and that "misplay" costed me the entire game. Theres a few mons that can have this kind of threatening aura to it, and it's the reason why Zygarde was banned this and last gen.

Lele on the other hand can be scouted, as even the worst case scenario you sac something weak to learn what Lele is locked into, oh it used Psychic on my 11% Lando-T? Perfect! I just go Blissey, threaten it out and T-Wave the incoming mon for momentum later in th- aaaaaand the Lele was HDB and just Psyshocked my Blissey out of existence.


I personally believe that Power Creep itself is the actual problem here, and with the more and more powerful the mons get, the less and less specific playstyles can be viable. At this current moment with mons like Kyurem, Lele, and others Stall has been registered basically worthless because there is no mon that can actually bulk the force of these wallbreakers that can easily OHKO the entire stall team. The fact that stall teams are resorting to Shedinja to be viable and do anything against the wallbreakers is incredible. Yes we've had stall sweepers in the past, but they weren't amazing otherwise and were picks that weren't too common. Take Crawdaunt for example, Adaptability Knock Off destroys any and all stall teams that exist, but with there being so many things that threaten it on every other archtype, Crawdaunt isnt worthing using to counter stall, just to be dead weight against Hyper Offense and Offense. However, now we have those before-mentioned threats that can be splashed on so many teams that they are personally invalidating so many mons with extremely high potential. I believe Pokemon like Kyurem need to be looked at because of this, as if you make one small mistake suddenly you are in a situation where sacking a mon is the only option to keep yourself alive.
 

TailGlowVM

Sponsored by Ampharos Lighting
is a Pre-Contributor
My big problem with the metagame, as I have stated before, is that it feels too difficult to cover every important Pokemon safely in the teambuilder - we have a lot of strong Pokemon with very few reliable switch-ins, like Kartana, Kyurem, Weavile, Tapu Lele, Heatran, and lots have been able to just adapt to get rid of a load of their previously established counterplay - for example, Dragapult has responded to the rise of specially defensive Hippowdon and continued dominance of Heatran by using Hydro Pump over Flamethrower, and many Pokemon Buzzwole is supposed to check are just running Aerial Ace to beat it, like Kartana, Weavile, and Bisharp. Obviously these examples require dropping a previous coverage move, introducing new counters, but the old sets still remain and you have to deal with both of them, and we seem to be discovering even more of them all the time, like Tapu Bulu, Victini, and Blacephalon. Obviously, Future Sight further complicates this by adding an additional external way to further limit counterplay, but that's been discussed to death before.

It's difficult to identify any single Pokemon as overwhelming in its own right, but I believe that with careful consideration, banning something could make other stuff generally easier to handle - the difficult part is doing it without the banned Pokemon just freeing up other stuff that now looks a bit problematic - like Weavile and Tapu Lele for Magearna. (Not saying that banning Mage was incorrect though.)
 
It's difficult to identify any single Pokemon as overwhelming in its own right, but I believe that with careful consideration, banning something could make other stuff generally easier to handle - the difficult part is doing it without the banned Pokemon just freeing up other stuff that now looks a bit problematic - like Weavile and Tapu Lele for Magearna. (Not saying that banning Mage was incorrect though.)
Id like to note that if you are going to, say, not ban something because it would open up other stuff, then well, that doesn't really work innit (broken checks broken=bad)

My opinion would be that Dragapult is the big one (and also, happens to have the least probability of doing any of that). If anything, it'll also mean that Weavile and Bisharp lose quite a bit of their defensive utility.
 
Id like to note that if you are going to, say, not ban something because it would open up other stuff, then well, that doesn't really work innit (broken checks broken=bad)

My opinion would be that Dragapult is the big one (and also, happens to have the least probability of doing any of that). If anything, it'll also mean that Weavile and Bisharp lose quite a bit of their defensive utility.
I really do think Pult is the big one, it provides speed control, breaking power with specs, late game cleaning potential and ability to cripple their teammates with hex, and ability to gain momentum with u-turn is huge. Would be counters like blissey, sp def clef, and sp def mandibuzz get pivoted on and are easily forced into a bad position especially if they are knocked and they are not having leftovers recovery or now taking hazards damage if they lost boots. Many pokemon cannot check it due to its ability to just use them as pivot and use it for free entry for a teammate, like blissey is free entry for urshifu-r, bisharp, kartana, and weavile. Many pokemon all it takes is 1 paralysis from thunder wave and they are no longer able to check dragapult hex spam like clefable getting a full para can cause it to lose the 1v1. Or against other pokemon such as toxapex vs weavile spamming haze and recover and eventually getting full para'ed which causes the weavile to be +2.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Maybe fill this thread with "solutions" instead of just asking to ban everything. :psywoke:
While I am pretty content with the current metagame, mentioning problems is how we find solutions. Noting that X is a problem could lead to a suspect or ban of X, which would be the solution. I think your post goes against the intentions of the thread and healthy metagame discussion in general.
 

Baloor

the boardwalk king
is a Tiering Contributor
Maybe fill this thread with "solutions" instead of just asking to ban everything. :psywoke:
considering smogon doesnt tamper too much with core mechanics of the game. there is no other "solutions" to fix a unbalanced metagame other than banning and unbanning problematic features. We typically only ban basic things like pokemon or abilities to keep the core aspects of gameplay intact. Let me remind you the last suspect test we did to unban something ended in a overwhelming majority of do not unban. Zama was considered the most possible ou candidate since you know, ubers are strong as fuck and the majority of them would just make ou even more unplayable. discussion of possible bans is happening in order to find the best approach to create a cohesive and competitive metagame since smogon exists as a alternative competitive ruleset to pokemon.

maybe next time bring a intellectual argument on why you believe the aspects that are being discussed are not issues for ou before you resort to being insults and telling people to play something else lol. ou is smogons premier format and balancing it is very important. im interested to hear what you consider solutions though, since you're obviously not into banning things and unbanning anything from ubers would be a huge step back.
 
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Smogon's metagames are wholly artificial constructions based on the site's deemed "competitive" tenets. These are maintained largely through opinion and tyrannical (lol) oversight, despite the massive sets of data available through PS. Discussing problems would be fine if there was an accompanying solution, but there's none of that here, just complaints.

Ctrl+F "unhealthy". It's an echo chamber.

I get you need to keep engagent through the forums, but come on...
 
Smogon's metagames are wholly artificial constructions based on the site's deemed "competitive" tenets. These are maintained largely through opinion and tyrannical (lol) oversight, despite the massive sets of data available through PS. Discussing problems would be fine if there was an accompanying solution, but there's none of that here, just complaints.

Ctrl+F "unhealthy". It's an echo chamber.

I get you need to keep engagent through the forums, but come on...
Ok then. To quote you, "Discussing problems would be fine if there was an accompanying solution, but there's none of that here, just complaints.", what would be your solution?
 
Smogon's metagames are wholly artificial constructions based on the site's deemed "competitive" tenets. These are maintained largely through opinion and tyrannical (lol) oversight, despite the massive sets of data available through PS. Discussing problems would be fine if there was an accompanying solution, but there's none of that here, just complaints.

Ctrl+F "unhealthy". It's an echo chamber.

I get you need to keep engagent through the forums, but come on...
Still didn’t give any of the “solutions” you tell everyone else to come up with when it comes to discussing potentially unhealthy mons. You don’t think Pokémon like dragapult are unhealthy? Then say why you believe they are fine as opposed to talking about shit like “groupthink” and whatever else you’re talking about. If there is a problematic element in the metagame, then how else would it be resolved without banning it assuming it fits the criteria for a banworthy threat?
 
Smogon's metagames are wholly artificial constructions based on the site's deemed "competitive" tenets. These are maintained largely through opinion and tyrannical (lol) oversight, despite the massive sets of data available through PS. Discussing problems would be fine if there was an accompanying solution, but there's none of that here, just complaints.

Ctrl+F "unhealthy". It's an echo chamber.

I get you need to keep engagent through the forums, but come on...
Well, we are discussing possible solutions by complaining about something. We complain about cinderace being broken, ok, OU suspected it and it was banned in a vote. Not every discussion has to be like "ok, dragapult is broken, ban it" not everyone could agree or propose other complaints about the meta such as "future sight and teleport are problematic". Unless you want to contribute to instead of spitting that does not contribute here.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Smogon's metagames are wholly artificial constructions based on the site's deemed "competitive" tenets. These are maintained largely through opinion and tyrannical (lol) oversight, despite the massive sets of data available through PS. Discussing problems would be fine if there was an accompanying solution, but there's none of that here, just complaints.

Ctrl+F "unhealthy". It's an echo chamber.

I get you need to keep engagent through the forums, but come on...
Get off your high horse with the condescending nonsense.

If you do not like what we do, message authority and it can be discussed in the appropriate place. If you still do not like it, there are so many other formats to play. You are not going to be the catalyst for change while talking down to entire groups of people.

Your inability to grasp that identifying the problem goes hand-in-hand with identifying solutions due to the cause-and-effect relationship between prospective suspects and prospective bans is as clear as day. I would be happy to break it down further for you or provide examples, but until you get past this and your “everyone keeps complaining without any solutions” misled narrative, perhaps try to lurk more before posting further.
 
Hello what do you think of volcarona now? Personally, I would say that we should give it a suspect test to see people's opinions on the pokemon, given that it has been debated for almost 11 years. Indeed it is manageable by a lot of pokemon like dragonite, dragapult or same heatran but suddenly it means that it forces to play its pokémons in addition to that the pokemon has a good movepool which can surprise pokémons supposed to check it like blissey with a set safeguard. in 7g is that each team is 6-0 by a set of volcarona.
 
Many teams can deal with it, setting up is a challenge since it has to avoid everything from being knocked into getting forced out, or getting toxic'ed halting its sweep, or just being pressured to hard by common pokemon. It has a hard time to set up against pokemon like urshifu-r, toxapex, landorus-t, tornadus-t and other pokemon. Sure it has ways to bypass by setting up on ferrothorn for ex. or a choice locked pokemon such as kartana. But that is what makes it good, it has its flaws, and its sometimes hit or miss
 
Hello what do you think of volcarona now? Personally, I would say that we should give it a suspect test to see people's opinions on the pokemon, given that it has been debated for almost 11 years. Indeed it is manageable by a lot of pokemon like dragonite, dragapult or same heatran but suddenly it means that it forces to play its pokémons in addition to that the pokemon has a good movepool which can surprise pokémons supposed to check it like blissey with a set safeguard. in 7g is that each team is 6-0 by a set of volcarona.
Honestly, I think Volcarona is far from the most oppressive mon. You’ve already brought up how Dragonite and Heatran can take on Volc, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg; Volc needs a bunch of boosts before it can break Blissey, which can permanently cripple it with TWave. If Volc is the Safeguard set, that means it’s running mono- Fire STAB, which combined with lower SpA investment allows bulky Fini, Tyranitar, Slowking and Pex to safely take it on (Pex can even Haze away its boosts). Volc also dislikes more SpD investment on Hippo and Lando, who along with Garchomp can smack it with EQ (also Hippo can just slack off any damage). Faster offensive mons like Pult, Torn and Zeraora force it out before it can boost, especially thanks to pivot support, and Scarf Fini can either Hydro it or ruin it with Trick. Even if it does get set up, you can revenge it with Urshifu Aqua Jet or Bisharp Sucker Punch. Volc has plenty of available counterplay and even with the offensive focus of the current meta can be handled by a variety of mons.
 
There is no value to sourcing input from muppets. No offense to individuals, but this place needs to either lock-up the decision making to the people who know what's what (the purported members of the councils) and stop the facade of community contribution, or otherwise move to a data-based framework that doesn't operate on feelings of problems. I'm happy to offer suggestions on how that can be done in the appropriate forum. There are plenty of metrics easily source-able or already existing in the Smogon/stats database.

And finchinator I get your pint, but there's no denying this thread is just dogpiling on "dissent". A problem's only a problem when it's demonstrably so.
 
There is no value to sourcing input from muppets. No offense to individuals, but this place needs to either lock-up the decision making to the people who know what's what (the purported members of the councils) and stop the facade of community contribution, or otherwise move to a data-based framework that doesn't operate on feelings of problems. I'm happy to offer suggestions on how that can be done in the appropriate forum. There are plenty of metrics easily source-able or already existing in the Smogon/stats database.

And finchinator I get your pint, but there's no denying this thread is just dogpiling on "dissent". A problem's only a problem when it's demonstrably so.
To be fair there's not really a facade of community contribution since anyone can vote in the suspect tests to make these decisions. Obviously the people higher up get to ultimately decide what is suspected in the first place, but there is still an extent of community contribution present here too. For example, the OU surveys that have been sent out definitely seem to inform suspect tests to an extent, and anyone can fill those out as well. You have a point in saying that discussions such as this thread may not ultimately contribute a ton to what is suspected/banned. However, don't forget the sole purpose of this specific thread is not just to discuss suspects. Further, even threads such as this one may slightly contribute to the suspect process in the sense that this thread 1) contributes to what's asked in the surveys, 2) allows "the purported members of the councils" to gauge community support for something they are considering, and 3) better informs the opinions of people who could potentially vote in a suspect. Regardless, community contribution and "executive council power" need to be balanced because many people are not well-enough informed to make good decisions and I personally think the OU council has done a good job balancing everything so far this generation and being transparent.
 
There is no value to sourcing input from muppets. No offense to individuals, but this place needs to either lock-up the decision making to the people who know what's what (the purported members of the councils) and stop the facade of community contribution, or otherwise move to a data-based framework that doesn't operate on feelings of problems. I'm happy to offer suggestions on how that can be done in the appropriate forum. There are plenty of metrics easily source-able or already existing in the Smogon/stats database.

And finchinator I get your pint, but there's no denying this thread is just dogpiling on "dissent". A problem's only a problem when it's demonstrably so.
Apologies to the mods if I'm just feeding a troll, but I'm genuinely curious as to what a "data-based framework" looks like to you. Smogon & PS do compile a bunch of data, but I'm don't see what easily lends itself to an objective measure of brokeness or uncompetitiveness
 
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With the metagame at the moment, I'm not a huge fan of it. To be honest, I find this generation as a whole to be the worst mechanically, although I am only gonna count six to eight since those are the only ones I've played. I play this gen mainly because I like the new moves the mons got but most of the time, I keep appreciating gen seven in a new light

If I had to describe the metagame in one word, it would have to be suffocating. There are just too many offensive threats to cover and for me, the best way to deal with them is to pivot around them rather than hard wall them. This comes at the risk as if you're not using a regenerator mon, you could end up dying to the mon you want to pivot around

Earlier I mentioned that I find this gen to have the worst mechanics. I'll start with teleport. This one move just greatly accentuates the offensive threats in the metagame because they are guaranteed not to take damage. The slowtwins might be the only ones that can fully abuse them but it does not change the fact that the precise positioning somewhat exaggerates the offensive threat. If that wasn't enough, there's boots. Dealing with guys like Rillaboom, Heatran, Garchomp and especially Dragapult is already strenuous enough but when you add in Dragonite, Volcarona and Weavile not being hindered whenever they get a free switch, it can be quite oppressive. This is why I find this metagame to be suffocating. These boots using mons are very annoying and it makes the switch moves too oppressive since the only thing you can really do is hope that the other guy uses u turn against your tank Garchomp. I can't even agree on the whole notion of 'oh that's easy. Just click knock off' because like, do you honestly believe that you will be able to remove the boots from these mons on a consistent basis?

When you have a mon that can just ignore hazard damage while its answers take them, it becomes suffocating eventually. That's why I just rage quit whenever I battle someone with more than two boots mons. I once said that Cinderace was wrongfully banned and that boots is what pushed it over the edge. Well, now we have a cult of mons dedicated to being as suffocating as Cinderace was. Also, let's not forget the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks, dynamax. I mean, who's brilliant idea was it to merge z moves and megas into one mechanic?

At this point, I think the mechanics is what gives off the vibe that the tier is difficult to build in. The four I mentioned are just the tier's apex predators and that's not mentioning the other predators beneath them. The offensive power creep was a bit too much in this gen and not enough defensive mons were introduced. I mean we're still using the old guys for most of our backbone. Combine the lack of new defensive mons and the new mechanics, it really makes the tier difficult. With this in mind, I really don't think any of the pokemon are broken

That's what I think about the current metagame anyway
 
All these wanna-be game designers taking about "the problems"...

If you think OU is too high in power level, then play UU or a lower tier.

Maybe fill this thread with "solutions" instead of just asking to ban everything. :psywoke:
your opinions is looks like similar to koreans opinions to me.

they don't like a OU's ban policy. so, almost korean 6v6 players not playing a OU. and they apply a nintendo official Battle Stadium rules to 6v6.

but, official 6v6 is only AG.

all 6v6s except AG are artificial, unofficial.

smogon discussing a ban? who cares? official 6v6 is not exist except AG.
 
Red Raven thats a nice read, lol

But chiming in to say that I'm super happy with this metagame, much more fun than previous ones. The biggest reason why is it feels like almost everything is viable (even tho some of my favourites like sceptile are clearly not) and it also feels like games just have a nice rhythm to them. Tagging Mimikyu Stardust who hit 1900 with a Raboot.

  • It doesn't feel like trying to butt up against a brick wall when against stall, because there are good breaking options
  • It doesn't feel like you need to run certain defensive pokemon trios, just defensive types (teams need a ground, flying/levitating and steel type generally). To be fair I look forward to the day when you can get away with not having any of ground/flying/steel on your team. In the meantime good luck getting past 1800 without at least 2 of the 3 :(
  • There is no spammable move, except magma storm, that terrifies me about how annoying it is. The STAB pyro ball / gunkshot / HJK trifecta was the last time it was annoying trying to find something to switch into spammable moves
  • It doesn't feel like there are only specific OU breakers, tho to be fair there are still only a small list of viable OU wincons, that can reliably perform
If this comes at the cost of regenerator spam, so be it. I blame GF for giving toxapex knock off with the rest of its movepool, lol.

If running pokemon that previously were made unviable due to stealth rocks comes at the cost of making others broken/overbearing, so be it, they can be banned.

Everything comes with a cost

And perspective can be different for many!
 
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