Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Just a quick thought on :Kyurem: and the 10% freeze.

this is playing odds , and freeze is powerful, so it makes Kyurem better.

however all Pokémon is about playing odds, literally everything from choosing flamethrower over fire blast , to avoiding Pokémon that rely on focus blast and hurricane.

even matchups are about odds, you might have a fun team you enjoy that’s particularly weak to a well played banded Melmetal, or maybe you have a hard time every time you come across a wall breaking Tapu fini..

I mean if 10% freeze is the reason Kyurem is over the edge… then what about 20% chance for dragapult to break its checks? The speed is almost uncontested



Kyurem is probably more annoying due to its natural bulk in addition to the power of its moves. Seriously it’s impressive that it can survive specs psychic from lele!



Odds sometimes don’t work out… it is what it is.. it’s true that a strong Pokémon is sometimes x% chance away from breaking past its checks, or incapacitating them for the game. But that’s not what makes it great, you just need to play the odds and over many games you’ll come out on top.



here’s an example of Volcarona breaking past two of its best checks due to odds (0.06 x 0.1 = 0.6% chance)… does that make it broken, because you have to rely on shitty rock moves to counter it only 90% of the time ?

View attachment 377928

personally I think the ability for an occasional freeze to force progress is a good thing. We need more of it in OU to prevent games dragging out. Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!
If you have not read my original post on page 158, please do so. It shows how likely freezing really is, and how unlikely unfreezing is in the context of a game. As for the "but what about Dragapult Shadow Ball and other hax" I have adressed this as well in this discussion, I would highly recommend reading past discussion posts so we don't rehash tired points. I'm really shocked though that you used that Volcarona as an example... how many games does Volcarona win due to dodging rock moves? Way, way, way less than Kyurem wins due to freezes, since Volcarona only has one shot whereas Kyurem has often tons of shots. This comparison is frankly absurd from a statistical standpoint.

"Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!"

Kyurem freezing is a HUGE asset to stall, which often utilizes bulky Kyurem and freezes balance teams. Freezing does not hurt stall basically at all, due to utilizing Natural Cure Blissey. Crits hurt stall, and I love those, though that's not what this is about. But saying Kyurem freezes hurt stall? Very much the opposite.
 
If you have not read my original post on page 158, please do so. It shows how likely freezing really is, and how unlikely unfreezing is in the context of a game. As for the "but what about Dragapult Shadow Ball and other hax" I have adressed this as well in this discussion, I would highly recommend reading past discussion posts so we don't rehash tired points. I'm really shocked though that you used that Volcarona as an example... how many games does Volcarona win due to dodging rock moves? Way, way, way less than Kyurem wins due to freezes, since Volcarona only has one shot whereas Kyurem has often tons of shots. This comparison is frankly absurd from a statistical standpoint.

"Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!"

Kyurem freezing is a HUGE asset to stall, which often utilizes bulky Kyurem and freezes balance teams. Freezing does not hurt stall basically at all, due to utilizing Natural Cure Blissey. Crits hurt stall, and I love those, though that's not what this is about. But saying Kyurem freezes hurt stall? Very much the opposite.
yes I read through them all, Kyurem doesn’t force out as many offensive threats as a specs pult, due to its speed. it’s also much less efficient in the end game, tho it makes up for that with early and mid game potency.

Your team can be weak to Kyurem because it relies on switching into ice beams 3-5x times on average per match against Kyurem. If you’re highly concerned about the higher odds for a freeze, then maybe try to get more of those ice beam/freeze dry absorbers to pack scald or switch into fire moves. Or re-adjust the team so you’re risking 1-3 ice moves per match instead.

sounds like a matchup issue..

I have teams weak to Kartana, Weavile, dragapult, blacephalon, and all the other top hard hitting threats. They’re top Threats for a reason.

the SCL game posted above was a great example of a Kyurem weak team with minimum options that outspend it and almost every Pokémon on the team being weak to one of its moves (so not just neutral). Throw in some high risk moves and a game can swing wildly, as we saw with the 6-0. We’ve all been 6-0’d before! You then adapt..

In that anecdote: if you want the luxury of packing super high utility, extremely viable Pokémon’s like landorus, heatran and fini, then you need to balance it out by covering their biggest threats.
 
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With regard to Arctovish:
:ss/Arctovish:
It seems cool on paper at least, but there is quite a few notable issues with it (beyond the obvious defensive issue of stacking 3 Ice types on one team).
:choice_scarf:
1. Speed control. Both of them fall short of base 90+ max speed scarfers. While it's true they don't necessarily lose to the exactly the same scarfers (eg: Vish lives Edge from scarfed Lando as long as rocks are off the field), having a mon faster than them does half the power of their formidable STABs, so you'll need a 4th mon on the team to deal with Scarfers in some way. This together with the typing issue limits teambuilding around the three of them a lot.
:icy_rock:
2. Reliance on hail. Having two mons on your team completely dependent on hail to function means you have to keep the hail setter alive. This somewhat sacrifices the flexibility of traditional hail teams, where Alolatails's main role was Hail, Veil, done, then let Zolt punch holes. Tails dies? That's ok you have 4 mons left who don't care about whether hail is up or not. Zolt dies? Tails can still set Veil for everyone else before joining it. With Lesser Vish in the equation, Tails suddenly can't afford to die. Which brings me nicely to:
:heavy_duty_boots:
3. Hazards and hazard control. With 3 Ice types on your team, you need good hazard control. Especially if you plan on Tails living a long and healthy life. This further limits teambuilding around these three. And what's more, you probably will struggle to fit your own hazards, which lets defensive mons pivot around without punishment, and gives your opponent much less incentive to Defog for you. It's true Zolt and maybe Vish can run Boots to mitigate this issue, but Tails simply cannot, and as mentioned above you now care very much about Tails' lifespan.
On Garchomp:

Hmm. Seems nice, but I think in practice Corv will be swapping in as rocks go up. This of course means no SR damage and now the calc probably looks like this:
228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and Fire Blast is now being PP stalled comfortably. The only reason I can think of to not go hard Corv into this Chomp is if it's set is totally unrevealed and the opposition fears an offensive set. That or you pair this with Magnezone, at which point Fire Blast is redundant. I like the idea though!
By the way., the name is Alolan Ninetales. The gimmick is that Ninetales is based on a mythological creature, and is in Pokemon;

Other than that, I think you bring up nice points. Aurora Veil Hail Teams really need to watch that Ice weakness...
 
yes I read through them all, Kyurem doesn’t force out as many offensive threats as a specs pult, due to its speed. it’s also much less efficient in the end game, tho it makes up for that with early and mid game potency.

Your team can be weak to Kyurem because it relies on switching into ice beams 3-5x times on average per match against Kyurem. If you’re highly concerned about the higher odds for a freeze, then maybe try to get more of those ice beam/freeze dry absorbers to pack scald or switch into fire moves. Or re-adjust the team so you’re risking 1-3 ice moves per match instead.

sounds like a matchup issue..

I have teams weak to Kartana, Weavile, dragapult, blacephalon, and all the other top hard hitting threats. They’re top Threats for a reason.

the SCL game posted above was a great example of a Kyurem weak team with minimum options that outspend it and almost every Pokémon on the team being weak to one of its moves (so not just neutral). Throw in some high risk moves and a game can swing wildly, as we saw with the 6-0. We’ve all been 6-0’d before! You then adapt..

In that anecdote: if you want the luxury of packing super high utility, extremely viable Pokémon’s like landorus, heatran and fini, then you need to balance it out by covering their biggest threats.
All correct points, but you are ignoring a few key facts.

1.) Pokemon with scald lose to Kyurem. The only exception is AV Slowking-G, which we can hardly start telling people to run if they don't like freezes. As for switching into fire moves, you know this is not realistic. Fire moves are generally super rare in the tier right now, the main two being V Create and Magma Storm... which are not easy to switch in on. There is no matchup issue that makes freezing a problem, it is a problem for all but the most specifically anti-freeze tailored teams.

2.) I think Dragapult is better than Kyurem. This is not my argument-- the problem is that Dragapult doesn't create uncompetitive hax instances like Kyurem does. Some fat, hardly spatk invested Kyurem can freeze a Scizor and just win-- Dragapult cannot do this. A shadow ball drop is commonly not even a significant problem, as many pokemon that are used as Dragapult checks can take a Spdef drop and still do a fine job of walling / forcing Dragapult out. Kyurem freeze, on the other hand? You're done.

3.) When you have teams weak to Kartana, Weavile, Dragapult, and Blacephalon, they're weak because of what those pokemon can consistently do, which CAN be prepped for. You can make a team that is in no way weak to Kyurem, and still lose to freezing. There is no realistic way to prep for freezing, as I addressed in #1.

4.) That SCL game WAS a matchup issue, and just getting the right plays. I have not used it as evidence for a Kyurem ban nor do I wish for it to be used. Many pokemon could have 6-0d like that. KYUREM IS NOT BROKEN BECAUSE OF HOW GOOD IT IS. It's high viability in combination with freezing odds is the issue. If freezing didn't exist, or the odds were lower, I would not be advocating for a suspect at all. The problem is that uncompetitive freezes are too likely to be ignored, and too easy to get for Kyurem to stay in the tier.
 
Ok this discussion is getting a bit out of hand so I’m gonna try to sun it up a bit with a list of reasons why kyurem can be called uncompetitive and warrants at the least a suspect test.

1. No counters.
Yeah specs alone has approximately two safe switchins with recovery, those being AV glowking and Scizor (and she’d in January and calm blissey I guess?). Scizor is imo a fake check but works out in the short term. AV glow king is maybe an ok answer but if it doesn’t immediately switch out for regenerator heals, it gets put in earth power range. Subroost can let kyurem win matchups it has no business winning (like calm blissey and some shedinja) and requires approximately 1% of the prediction the specs set does, while allowing you to ignore rocks if you go for boots. It also lets you be bulkier with recovery, which is nice.
Counterargument: Kyurem can be dealt with via offensive pressure since it doesn’t have the best speed and has the ice typing. Specs requires really good prediction, while subroost has actual reliable defensive answers. You can get around the “not knowing which set it is” issue by assuming specs, since other sets are reasonably easy to switch into.

2. Freeze
Let me get this out of the way, I don’t think freeze is in any way the most powerful part of kyurem, nor even a major selling point. However, I do think that because of kyurem’s nature of having very limited checks, and subroost’s tendency to spam freeze dry, freeze is very uncompetitive and can absolutely end games like nothing else. Now glowking is admittedly semi freeze proof and good at handling kyurem, but pressing scald just means you let an opponent get a free switch, sub, roost, or earth power off. I personally think that having about a 40% chance to probably get whopped by a mon you prepared for is not good.

Ok maybe it’s not a list if it’s just 2.
Also please stop replying with one liners to one liners replying to one liners please. :)
 
One thing I would like to add with kyurem is that while it is hard to check defensivly, it's also quite hard to check offensivly. Kyurem is a really bulky mon with an huge 125 hp and correct 90/90 defenses, and thus can live a lot of common attacks. Like, if you spread it correctly, it can 2 koko dgleam. The few things that threathen the ohko are either choice locked (pult or shifu) or slow (bisharp or melmetal), and are thus abusable. And even fewer can switch into it. Shifu may be threathening sure, but fini or full hp torna can switch into it and threaten ohko. Well, few things can actually do that to kyurem, and those things are melmetal (which is quite good but can't really in into specs if it clicks the right move and take a good chunk from ep), zor, which is chipped from a million things (also it can't ohko with its most common set) and ttar, which isn't really common or good. Also they're iron head ferro, but it can be stalled out by sub, is quite abusable, take a good chunk from a lot of kyurem's attacks, and cost a move slot. Also it can't ohko. In short, you should check kyu offensivly by outspeeding and ohko, but it's pretty hard to do, and you can't really switch in and ohko except for few mons.

And the things that can switch into it don't really threaten it immediatly, at best a poison from glowking or a para from bliss.

Add to that that it has a 10% chance to "kill" your in with freeze, and you have a mon that is a good candidate for ubers.


(I may have forgotten important things, so please feel free to correct me.
 
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Ok it's time to turn our blind eyes to this beast of a mon called "Tapu Lele". Amongst all the mons that are suspect worthy this thing is consistently the most broken and being able to do this:

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 105-123 (37.2 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But there's more, on top of getting a damage buff from psychic surge the ability grants the additional effect of canceling priority so say goodbye to using a mon such as scizor as a reliable counter because your bullet punch isn't working here.

This pokemon has all the tools to defeat it's counters and that is more than enough to be suspect worthy in my honest opinion.
 

Windingsss

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Ok it's time to turn our blind eyes to this beast of a mon called "Tapu Lele". Amongst all the mons that are suspect worthy this thing is consistently the most broken and being able to do this:
smogon gave me a push notification for this so i'll take it as an opportunity to give my thoughts on lele because i don't think it's broken.

:ss/tapu-lele:

honestly its not like lele isnt v good or something but to me it doesn't feel like it needs a suspect test or something, i think it's a solid A mon tbh. imo biggest problems are that a) lele sometimes is surprisingly punishable, b) meta trends don't favour it (say, double steel) and c) its kinda awful on the builder.

going into a); lele just needs godlike predictions vs some teams that are running stuff like steel + flying or literally any core that's able of making it think twice before clicking something. if lele locks into the wrong move vs an incoming ferrothorn, say bye bye to specs or prepare to outright getting 2hkoed by any move not named body press (this also applies to any switch-in on earth), so lele isnt just "uh oh i'll click a random move and win". i think people heavily overrate the psychic moves' damage output. is it great? absolutely, but i don't think its near the level of stuff like dragapult or others that can just spam a move and win.

b) kinda explains itself; stuff like victini and steels on the rise puts lele into situations were it can do amazingly in a match or have an underwhelming performance where it'll just chip opponents and thats it. lele isnt heavily inconsistent by any means but sometimes it'll just find itself in these kind of scenarios.

c) is a bit more complicated and one of my main reasons to not raise it on the vrs / suspect test it. lele has middling stats and is incredibly vulnerable after hitting an opponent if it doesn't claim a kill. stuff like scizor / slowking-g / ferrothorn / heatran / melmetal can scout what does it lock into and send a resist or something that can punish it for that, making your team lose momentum and find itself in an awkward situation; and then lele itself has no defensive utility because its relatively frail and its typing can give opportunities to threats like Dragapult or Weavile to sweep or clean.

overall, lele's good, not banworthy, can make you cry if your team isnt prepared (similar to kyurem; which is your fault for not running a steel or literally anything that can tank one of its attacks lol), otherwise you can win before it does or beat it with faster stuff / scouting.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 105-123 (37.2 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But there's more, on top of getting a damage buff from psychic surge the ability grants the additional effect of canceling priority so say goodbye to using a mon such as scizor as a reliable counter because your bullet punch isn't working here.
re: this, i mean i don't know what did you expect vs a magnezone that has 4 / 0 investment lol; and then there's slowking-g... congrats, you targeted its weak defense. thats the whole purpose of psyshock, otherwise it just deals less damage vs corv and ferro.

also while the terrain is useful yea it'll rarely do something as common priority users (like shifu, weav, scizor) can just kill lele (former two can outspeed and KO lele) or cripple it / heal the damage / scout the move (scizor's case, not much more).
 
smogon gave me a push notification for this so i'll take it as an opportunity to give my thoughts on lele because i don't think it's broken.

:ss/tapu-lele:

honestly its not like lele isnt v good or something but to me it doesn't feel like it needs a suspect test or something, i think it's a solid A mon tbh. imo biggest problems are that a) lele sometimes is surprisingly punishable, b) meta trends don't favour it (say, double steel) and c) its kinda awful on the builder.

going into a); lele just needs godlike predictions vs some teams that are running stuff like steel + flying or literally any core that's able of making it think twice before clicking something. if lele locks into the wrong move vs an incoming ferrothorn, say bye bye to specs or prepare to outright getting 2hkoed by any move not named body press (this also applies to any switch-in on earth), so lele isnt just "uh oh i'll click a random move and win". i think people heavily overrate the psychic moves' damage output. is it great? absolutely, but i don't think its near the level of stuff like dragapult or others that can just spam a move and win.

b) kinda explains itself; stuff like victini and steels on the rise puts lele into situations were it can do amazingly in a match or have an underwhelming performance where it'll just chip opponents and thats it. lele isnt heavily inconsistent by any means but sometimes it'll just find itself in these kind of scenarios.

c) is a bit more complicated and one of my main reasons to not raise it on the vrs / suspect test it. lele has middling stats and is incredibly vulnerable after hitting an opponent if it doesn't claim a kill. stuff like scizor / slowking-g / ferrothorn / heatran / melmetal can scout what does it lock into and send a resist or something that can punish it for that, making your team lose momentum and find itself in an awkward situation; and then lele itself has no defensive utility because its relatively frail and its typing can give opportunities to threats like Dragapult or Weavile to sweep or clean.

overall, lele's good, not banworthy, can make you cry if your team isnt prepared (similar to kyurem; which is your fault for not running a steel or literally anything that can tank one of its attacks lol), otherwise you can win before it does or beat it with faster stuff / scouting.



re: this, i mean i don't know what did you expect vs a magnezone that has 4 / 0 investment lol; and then there's slowking-g... congrats, you targeted its weak defense. thats the whole purpose of psyshock, otherwise it just deals less damage vs corv and ferro.

also while the terrain is useful yea it'll rarely do something as common priority users (like shifu, weav, scizor) can just kill lele (former two can outspeed and KO lele) or cripple it / heal the damage / scout the move (scizor's case, not much more).
ok here's the crazy part this is the best case scenario where your Magnezone is max Special defense vs scarf lele

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 74-87 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's still a crazy amount of damage. My point is this mon can keep clicking its stabs with insane results. Also let us not factor out the stat drops it causes which can make or break your momentum against an opponent.

Additionally, you said it becomes very vulnerable after not claiming a kill. That I have to say is very incorrect as Tapu lele just loves to be paired with the likes of a Magnezone of it's own or a Tapu Fini. Both mons that can pull off trapping shenanigans. Leaving your team in shambles.
Relying on quote on quote "godlike predictions" isn't a solution. It's a temporary answer to the inevitable.
 
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Clone

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ok here's the crazy part here is the best case scenario where your magnezone is max Special defense vs scarf lele

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 74-87 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's still a crazy amount of damage my point is this mon can keep clicking its stabs with insane results and let us not factor out the stat drops it can cause which can make or break your momentum against a Tapu lele.

Additionally, you said it becomes very vulnerable after not claiming a kill. That I have to say is very incorrect as Tapu lele just loves to be paired with the likes of a Magnezone of it's own or a Tapu Fini. Both mons that can pull off trapping shenanigans. Leaving your team in shambles.
Relying on quote on quote "godlike predictions" isn't a solution. It's a temporary answer to the inevitable.
Why are you so focused on magnezone? It's hardly used as a lele check and at most it's a soft check. I'd rather you focus on the steel types that are used for this purpose, such as Lefties melmetal, spdef heatran/ferrothorn, and other mons used to check special attackers (av torn/av gking, which can scout and regen out)

Ignoring the fact that lele is useless defensively, it's more of a threat on paper than in practice. I'm open to hearing you out, but you gotta do better than scarf lele 3HKOing magnezone
 
smogon gave me a push notification for this so i'll take it as an opportunity to give my thoughts on lele because i don't think it's broken.

:ss/tapu-lele:

honestly its not like lele isnt v good or something but to me it doesn't feel like it needs a suspect test or something, i think it's a solid A mon tbh. imo biggest problems are that a) lele sometimes is surprisingly punishable, b) meta trends don't favour it (say, double steel) and c) its kinda awful on the builder.

going into a); lele just needs godlike predictions vs some teams that are running stuff like steel + flying or literally any core that's able of making it think twice before clicking something. if lele locks into the wrong move vs an incoming ferrothorn, say bye bye to specs or prepare to outright getting 2hkoed by any move not named body press (this also applies to any switch-in on earth), so lele isnt just "uh oh i'll click a random move and win". i think people heavily overrate the psychic moves' damage output. is it great? absolutely, but i don't think its near the level of stuff like dragapult or others that can just spam a move and win.

b) kinda explains itself; stuff like victini and steels on the rise puts lele into situations were it can do amazingly in a match or have an underwhelming performance where it'll just chip opponents and thats it. lele isnt heavily inconsistent by any means but sometimes it'll just find itself in these kind of scenarios.

c) is a bit more complicated and one of my main reasons to not raise it on the vrs / suspect test it. lele has middling stats and is incredibly vulnerable after hitting an opponent if it doesn't claim a kill. stuff like scizor / slowking-g / ferrothorn / heatran / melmetal can scout what does it lock into and send a resist or something that can punish it for that, making your team lose momentum and find itself in an awkward situation; and then lele itself has no defensive utility because its relatively frail and its typing can give opportunities to threats like Dragapult or Weavile to sweep or clean.

overall, lele's good, not banworthy, can make you cry if your team isnt prepared (similar to kyurem; which is your fault for not running a steel or literally anything that can tank one of its attacks lol), otherwise you can win before it does or beat it with faster stuff / scouting.



re: this, i mean i don't know what did you expect vs a magnezone that has 4 / 0 investment lol; and then there's slowking-g... congrats, you targeted its weak defense. thats the whole purpose of psyshock, otherwise it just deals less damage vs corv and ferro.

also while the terrain is useful yea it'll rarely do something as common priority users (like shifu, weav, scizor) can just kill lele (former two can outspeed and KO lele) or cripple it / heal the damage / scout the move (scizor's case, not much more).
I agree entirely. Lele is very healthy and not banworthy, in my opinion. Stall hates it, balance can handle it better, offense wrecks it (at least with Specs, the primary set.) It is a very balanced pokemon that punishes passive teams but is overall very manageable. I don't have much more to say as you articulated my thougts very well in your post (at least about Lele, don't agree at all with your evaluation of Kyurem, Lele Psychic doesn't have a 10% freeze chance). There are plenty of reasonable ways to prep for Lele and it's not easy to fit onto a team.
 
I agree entirely. Lele is very healthy and not banworthy, in my opinion. Stall hates it, balance can handle it better, offense wrecks it (at least with Specs, the primary set.) It is a very balanced pokemon that punishes passive teams but is overall very manageable. I don't have much more to say as you articulated my thougts very well in your post (at least about Lele, don't agree at all with your evaluation of Kyurem, Lele Psychic doesn't have a 10% freeze chance). There are plenty of reasonable ways to prep for Lele and it's not easy to fit onto a team.
It does however have a 10% chance of lowering SPD which is often enough to break through a lot of Lele's checks.
 
Why are you so focused on magnezone? It's hardly used as a lele check and at most it's a soft check. I'd rather you focus on the steel types that are used for this purpose, such as Lefties melmetal, spdef heatran/ferrothorn, and other mons used to check special attackers (av torn/av gking, which can scout and regen out)

Ignoring the fact that lele is useless defensively, it's more of a threat on paper than in practice. I'm open to hearing you out, but you gotta do better than scarf lele 3HKOing magnezone
1. I think you are ignoring the fact that Lele is boasting a Special defense stat of 115. Useless defensively? Absolutely not. While frail physically it's not to the point where it will get ohko'd by it checks with the exception of Melmetal.

2. Ok lets try Melmetal:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 408-480 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Not enough? Let's try Heatran

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 298-352 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think this is more than being good on paper as these are very real scenarios. Don't even get me started on bluffing specs with twisted spoon.

Saying that Lele is not broken because regen mons exist is a great example of strawmanning and those two mons you gave examples of are just the absolute worst to take on Lele.

Edit: 252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 243-286 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Need I say more.
 
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0 hp torn isn't used, but nice try. And I specifically stated AV torn. Get some experience in the metagame before you try and argue for a ban on a mon
Made a mistake of putting regular Torn over therian forme that's my bad. Edited but this guy is still doing Damage to max hp max spd torn. (Let's be real you are wearing boots. Enough of that unset bullcrap.)
Also do you mind putting up any resistance against my arguments? It seems all you are doing is saying no and nothing more I'm interested in what you have to say.

Read up on asuma's post about lele not too long ago and agree on alot of it. Share alot of the same thoughts too here it is:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...usage-stats-in-post-3539.3672210/post-8960081

A very good read I do recommend.
 

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1. I think you are ignoring the fact that Lele is boasting a Special defense stat of 115. Useless defensively? Absolutely not. While frail physically it's not to the point where it will get ohko'd by it checks with the exception of Melmetal.

2. Ok lets try Melmetal:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 408-480 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Not enough? Let's try Heatran

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 298-352 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think this is more than being good on paper as these are very real scenarios. Don't even get me started on bluffing specs with twisted spoon.

Saying that Lele is not broken because regen mons exist is a great example of strawmanning and those two mons you gave examples of are just the absolute worst to take on Lele.

Edit: 252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 243-286 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Need I say more.
The examples being used here are genuinely very poor. The main argument I'm understanding from you is that Tapu Lele is using its main moves that we know it has to do damage. You are showing meaningless calcs that tell us things we already know; it's obvious Focus Blast is going to pelt Fighting-weak Pokemon, and it's obvious a Choice Specs-boosted Psychic is going to melt a neutral effectiveness, uninvested target. The point of emphasis when it comes to pushing for a suspect, mainly, should be the ways in which it impacts and aims to break down the Pokemon that are supposed to check it in the long-term. How does it affect its checks, such as Steel-types? What does Tapu Lele do in the metagame that makes it as a wallbreaker stand out as being potentially a suspect-worthy threat?

As Clone said, I would suggest playing more of the metagame and lurking the forums for a bit longer before calling for suspects so you can build a stronger understanding of how Tapu Lele operates. That being said, this discussion is clearly just going to keep going in circles, so from here I would like us to move on please. If you ever have any questions on any resources that you can use to help you learn, want to discuss this matter further, or want any advice in general, my DMs are always open.

e: thank you for the compliments on my post btw!
 

Mimikyu Stardust

Tournament Banned
hey guys i wanna share a mon, or i guess, "Un-mon" for everyone that is looking for an offensive pressure that can potentially beat every mon in OU

:bw/sharpedo: :ss/sharpedo: :bw/sharpedo: :ss/sharpedo: :bw/sharpedo:

SHARPEDO

Now i actually dont have a set or even EVs to that matter, AS I HAVE MANY!!, most share a common item and that is :life-orb: as this is an EXTREMELY versatile Un-mon that is a godsend for offensive teams, it has a wide range of offensive moves from Earthquake, Psychic Fangs, Crunch, Ice Fang, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Close Combat, Poison Jab to even Scale Shot (if you are insane), but you also have a wide range of support like Taunt, Destiny Bond, Super Fang or even Roar.
(i meant to post this as a shorter quick post so i apologize for not providing many replays, but i assure you i tested this are in the range of 1800+)

Here are 3 sets that i use and will use as an example, Not all as the other sets are too niche.

MIXED BREED
:dp/sharpedo:

"Due To Its Mixed Breed, The Shark Itself Is Quite Weak,But It Makes Up For That By Being A Smart Hunter, Hitting Its Prey on Their Weak Points"
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Earthquake/Ice Beam/Protect
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Hydro Pump


Having No Protect is EXTREMELY Ballsy But Hey, The Risk is Worthwile for having extremely good coverage vs basically every mon in OU not named :ninetales-alola: Alolan Ninetales, :rillaboom: Rillaboom or :pelipper: Pelipper, but this is an extremely powerful sweeper for a weaken team, Earthquake is to 2hko :reaper-cloth: Pex after rocks, ohko :tapu-koko: tapu koko, Ice Beam is to annihilate :gabite: Chomp and :landorus-therian: and :dragonite: DDnite even if its scaled, hydro pump 2hko :corviknight: Corviknight, :zapdos: Zapdos, :buzzwole: Buzzwole and many more, Close Combat CLEANLY 2hko :ferrothorn: Ferro and :melmetal: Melmetal, it also Ohkos :kartana: Kartana, Crunch is for THE VERY ANNOYING AND COMMON GHOSTS HOLY CRAP CAN YALL NOT SPAM THEM SO MUCH???? and also 2hko :tornadus-therian: torn-t and many others. the down side of this set is it often comes short of a KO like Unable to ohko :tapu-lele: Lele With Crunch after rocks, but it makes up by able to be genuinely one of the best cleaners

Calc Dump:
200 SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 199-234 (51.9 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 135-161 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
56+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 181-214 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 187-220 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
200 SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 452-536 (107.6 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 298-352 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



PHYSICALLY BASED
:lucky-punch::rs/sharpedo::lucky-punch:

"It is Adamant About Brute-Forcing Through Hordes Of Pokemon, However, It Does Make It Jolly After Denting Quite A Chunk From The Opposing School Of Pokemon"
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature/Jolly Nature
- Protect/Earthquake/Poison Jab
- Close Combat
- Ice Fang/Waterfall
- Crunch


Unlike its Mixed Counter-Part, This set acts as a Bruiser other than a Cleaner, While it is still great at cleaning, its main goal is to poke holes and pressure the opponent with offense. protect is better here as its goal is to put pressure on offensive teams and force the opponent to switch around and have their team chipped down for your other mons to clean up. it cleanly ohko :ferrothorn: ferro after spikes, one hit KO kartana, 2hko :melmetal: Melm. Ice fang is able to put the hurt on Spdef Lando, Doing up to 80%, and OHKO :garchomp: tank chomp after spikes. Crunch is the spammable stab attack to kill ghosts and clean, Poison jab is useful to 2hko :tapu-fini: fini and :clefable: clef, eq is useful for :reaper-cloth: pex.

Calc DUMB
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Garchomp: 354-416 (84.2 - 99%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 278-330 (78.9 - 93.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 351-416 (86.8 - 102.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

SUICIDE-SUPPORT-LEAD
_________
/------------\
|----RIP-----|
|-------------|
|---:sharpedo:---|
|-"i fucking-|

:never-melt-ice::never-melt-ice::never-melt-ice: |---died"- --| :never-melt-ice::never-melt-ice::never-melt-ice:
:blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy::blunder-policy:

"It is Sometimes Naive About How It Is In The Cruel, Cruel World. Which Leads it To Having A Hasty End.... But It Won't Go Down Alone.."
Sharpedo @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 184 Atk / 72 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature/Hasty Nature
- Crunch/Close Combat
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond


The Attacking Evs are up to u, hell run max hp if u want, i just choose this cuz i like it. crunch is for lead mew, CC is for ferro, Ice beam for chomp and lando. destiny bond is to take out the thing that is killing it and play mind games, taunt is just good general support. not much to say about this one other than... well, lead and kill a mon.


AND THATS ABOUT IT FOR SHARPEDO!

seriously, its a very fun offensive cleaner and i recommend everyone to try it once, sorry about no replays to show but this was meant to be a short post so i didn't save any replays, but as i said, i tested in the range of 1800+ so it should be good. again, sharpedo is no way an OU mon, its bulk is extreme sad, the almost requirement of protect holds it back a lot, and the fact it ALWAYS comes short of a KO doesnt help. but it is definetly OU viable, and can be used for fun with success and not make you 1 mon short.

Have A good day everyone! :bw/mew:
 
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Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
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OU & NU Leader
Tapu Lele is not close to broken and I highly doubt a suspect occurs in the near future.

It is strong and it is a good Pokemon overall, but Tapu Lele is near useless defensively, it is very reliant on locking into and connecting with Focus Blast — which can have dire consequences, and it is far scarier on paper than in practice.

Let’s start with how it is defensively. You check nothing with Tapu Lele’s normal sets, only revenge killings things with the Choice Scarf set. In a metagame with a demanding teambuilding checklist defensively, many premier offensive presences offer secondary uses. Kyurem and Tapu Lele are the primary exceptions to that rule among top tier Pokemon, but Kyurem has enough natural bulk to find plenty of openings as is, especially on Water types. Tapu Lele essentially means you have to tackle everything the metagame has to throw at you with your five remaining slots. This is possible, but it limits teambuilding and leads to Tapu Lele only working on so many effective builds.

When it comes to the actual usage of Tapu Lele, you need Focus Blast to break through things like Heatran and Ferrothorn or to even have a chance at getting past Scizor. Not only does this require correct prediction and hitting a 70% move, but it also does not usually lead to an OHKO, barely 2HKOing Scizor with Specs, and leaves you in a defenseless position immediately afterwards against one of the tier’s many threatening fighting resists or immunes. The net outcome of this sequence oftentimes leaves a lot to be desired. The same can be said for Thunderbolt being needed for Slowking and Corviknight, but Slowking can Regenerate this off promptly — you also need to clear a moveslot for Thunderbolt on top of everything, which is a nuisance.

At this point you see how hard it is to use Tapu Lele, how challenging it is to actually break through would-be checks and the consequences of those sequences, and all of the natural limitations of Tapu Lele usage. It is still an exceptionally strong option, but it has far too much going against it to be considered broken at this point in time.
 
Guys, I found out a baller G-Zap set that will put Lando into Obscurity

:ss/Zapdos-Galar:

Zapdos-Galar @ Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drill Peck
- Thunderous Kick
- Bulk Up/Taunt
- Substitute/Taunt

Lando's existence is nothing but pain for the opponent if using this set.

Best partners are mons that bait in Lando like Electrics such as Regieleki, Zeraora, as well as stuff that Lando pivots arounds like Garchomp, Kartana, Heatran

Will post replays soon
 
Last edited:
Guys, I found out a baller G-Zap set that will put Lando into Obscurity

:ss/Zapdos-Galar:

Zapdos-Galar @ Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drill Peck
- Thunderous Kick
- Bulk Up/Taunt
- Substitute/Taunt

Lando's existence is nothing but pain for the opponent if using this set.

Best partners are mons that bait in Lando like Electrics such as Regieleki, Zeraora, as well as stuff that Lando pivots arounds like Garchomp, Kartana, Heatran

Will post replays soon
This is similar to a set I experimented with and posted in Next Best Thing (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-next-best-thing-cycle-51-gengar.3659339/post-8966113) a while back and yeah Adren Orb Gapdos rocks. Especially when you realise that most Lando can’t touch you with Sub up unless they‘re running Stone Edge. You can use Acrobatics over Drill Peck for more power after Orb pops-this has the advantage of letting you outspeed and OHKO Dragapult-but I can see why you’d run Drill Peck since it’s more reliable against teams without Lando-T. Looking forward to seeing those replays!
 
Guys, I found out a baller G-Zap set that will put Lando into Obscurity

:ss/Zapdos-Galar:

Zapdos-Galar @ Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drill Peck
- Thunderous Kick
- Bulk Up/Taunt
- Substitute/Taunt

Lando's existence is nothing but pain for the opponent if using this set.

Best partners are mons that bait in Lando like Electrics such as Regieleki, Zeraora, as well as stuff that Lando pivots arounds like Garchomp, Kartana, Heatran

Will post replays soon
Adrenaline orb mons have to come with the caveat that when you put one on your team, you will absolutely never actually encounter a lando on the ladder lol
 
Adrenaline orb mons have to come with the caveat that when you put one on your team, you will absolutely never actually encounter a lando on the ladder lol
Never encounter a Lando? Dude, the mon is ubiquitous.

Besides, G-Zap does well vs other grounds too, it subs and uses Hippo as fodder. Chomp is a bit more difficult, but you can manage to squeeze a win if Scale Shot doesn't hit too many times.
 
Never encounter a Lando? Dude, the mon is ubiquitous.

Besides, G-Zap does well vs other grounds too, it subs and uses Hippo as fodder. Chomp is a bit more difficult, but you can manage to squeeze a win if Scale Shot doesn't hit too many times.
but does not hippo whirl you if it has it?(btw its kinda underrated on hippo)
 
but does not hippo whirl you if it has it?(btw its kinda underrated on hippo)
never tried it, but sub bu or taunt bu or even sub-taunt-bu with drill peck seem usable. toxic hippo is more common but 2/3 of these beat whirl hippo too. i feel like sub bu is the best one though. to be fair, thunderous kick can be a setup move of its own with a sub-taunt (it also works on unaware users but clef is a bad matchup anyway) and also works well with spikes to abuse switches forced by taunt, sub or defense drops, since people wont click defog anyway. this is just theorymonning though, i don't claim any of these to be effective due to practice, I'm only throwing out ideas and fueling conversation
 

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