Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Mostly standard Vic but with Taunt over a coverage move. Helps keep hazards and status to a minimum. Then there's this which I haven't used as much but has a fun surprise factor:
Victini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Thunder/Trick
- U-turn
[/QUOTE]
why not blue flare?
 
Victini @ Expert Belt
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Glaciate/energy ball
experimetal heatran/gastrodon lure
focus blast is a gurented ko on heatran after rocks
 
Thread is a bit quiet lately sooo let's get some discussion going.

Kartana is in my opinion, one of the best offensive options in the tier right now.
Kartana is, as per usu, disgusting. I typically run scarf and position it as a late game sweeper once everything gets chipped and you can remove a few resists. I dislike banded and timid is a gimmick most of the time. I tend to pair it with :tapu lele: since the psychic terrain can help dodge some priority (a la :weavile:, :urshifu-rapid-strike:) that can knock Kart out once it starts getting to low health from LO recoil. Lele loves the scarf too tho, and I don't love the double scarf, so it's usually FS Lele, which can really blow some holes in teams. If I'm running SD I really like :Nihilego: as a partner, typically :power herb: but I've run :choice specs: as well. They really take care of each others counters pretty well - :Zapdos:/:Buzzwole:/:Corviknight:/:Tangrowth: for Kart, and :Blissey:/:Melmetal:/:Slowking: for the jelly. It's not the most immediately-visible breaking synergy but with a couple of defensive pivots I've found them to work pretty well as a core on more than one team.

Not only is this nice for preventing its sweeps from being cut short, but it also lets it contribute to progress via knock off without fear of being crippled or worn down, and generally spreading damage with attacks. For this reason I personally find that protective pads kartana is an amazing progress making tool that doubles as a sweeper. PPads Kartana I think is also an amazing Weavile partner.
I don't love pads Kart, since you really do feel the lack of power from LO even after an SD, but it certainly has its uses. I normally run things that beat tran/volc/buzz/ferro anyway so I think I might feel a greater inclination towards it if, say, something like :Rocky Helmet: + :Avalugg:or even :Tangrowth: was more prominent. Pads takes away a bunch of what makes Kart so threatening as a breaker rather than a sweeper, one of the reasons I used to like bandkart a lot more, but I've found that there are a number of pokemon more suited to that role (:Melmetal:, :Tyranitar: + :Choice Band:) or for making progress in general (:Zeraora:, :Rillaboom:, :Krookodile:). You miss out on the speed control if you run banded, you miss out on the power if you run scarf, and you really feel the lack of both when you run pads. But that's in a vacuum - you have to consider the metagame as a whole, and I think a lot of us feel that more physically punishing mons are on the rise, while more fat squatters are starting to shirk away a little bit. I think with the way that the meta is headed, I'll probably prefer pads over LO on SD variants in the coming months, especially as things like :Slowbro: decline and :Zapdos: continues to rise, but I'm not quite there yet personally. And of course, I'm still taking :choice scarf: over either :Life Orb: or :Protective Pads:.

This is all just what I think. I'm curious what other players think of protective pads Kartana, or just Kartana in general. What do you think of the PPads set? What do you think of Kartana in the current Metagames as a whole? And if you use it, what are your favorite partners for it?
Yeah. Kartana isn't going anywhere. I both fear (and cant wait for) the day they give Kart something like Power-up Punch, Close Combat, Fell Stinger or some kind of rock move like Head Smash that totally pushes it over the edge and out of OU. Does it have its checks? Absolutely. Is it still a pretty braindead choice that can steamroll a game without any reason? Absolutely.
 
I don't love pads Kart, since you really do feel the lack of power from LO even after an SD, but it certainly has its uses. I normally run things that beat tran/volc/buzz/ferro anyway so I think I might feel a greater inclination towards it if, say, something like :Rocky Helmet: + :Avalugg:or even :Tangrowth: was more prominent.
Now that's interesting because from personally experience I haven't noticed a particularly big drop in relevant match ups. Outside of no longer threatening defensive Zapdos (which could always threaten static vs life orb sets), and against Toxapex I haven't found any match ups where no LO has been a problem. It does still nicely threaten Ferrothorn, Melmetal and offensive Zapdos with a KO post SD and being able to bypass contact via helmets and abilities that are everywhere, as I mentioned, I find really valuable.

Pads takes away a bunch of what makes Kart so threatening as a breaker rather than a sweeper, one of the reasons I used to like bandkart a lot more, but I've found that there are a number of pokemon more suited to that role (:Melmetal:, :Tyranitar: + :Choice Band:) or for making progress in general (:Zeraora:, :Rillaboom:, :Krookodile:).
I do agree that banded Kart isn't too great and stuff like Melm and banded Ttar are better than it for their defensive value. But I'm a bit less sure about Zera, Rilla and Krook being better progress makers. Zera I think is getting worse in an era of resurging bulky grounds and it lacks immediate power. Krook I'm not sure why it's here since I'm not sure what it does that's worth using it over other grounds or Ttar/Weavile. And Rilla I've just never liked because of its non-existent defensive utility and how easily it gets walled, as well as how tough it is to get in. I know it's gotten some new popularity recently for a bulky set but I don't like it.

But that's in a vacuum - you have to consider the metagame as a whole, and I think a lot of us feel that more physically punishing mons are on the rise, while more fat squatters are starting to shirk away a little bit. I think with the way that the meta is headed, I'll probably prefer pads over LO on SD variants in the coming months, especially as things like :Slowbro: decline and :Zapdos: continues to rise,
For me personally this is how I feel. I think newer meta trends greatly favor Kartana and position if really well, and I find PPads Kart to have a nice place in the tier. Especially since it's tough to defensively punish for clicking attacks as it won't get worn down by helmets or barbs or rough skin. Or static or burned. It's a good partner for many breakers and I also have found that future sight support helps it even more.
 
also what victni sets do people use nowdays because nobody talks about these days. I sort of looking into special but losing v create hurts
Beyond the standard (which I think shouldn't be overlooked because it's good), I've seen the occasional Trick Room Victini as a late game sweeper, where you try to abuse V-Create's speed drop to snowball. I've never used it myself tho. It's something to the tune of

Code:
Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Victory Star 
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD 
Brave Nature 
- Trick Room 
- V-create 
- Bolt Strike 
- U-turn / Glaciate
 
lol eject button toxapex is an underatted set
Toxapex @ Eject Button
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Haze
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Scald
or
Toxapex @ Eject Button
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Haze
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Scald
realy good to pivot scarfers into threats
 
is flame body heatran the standard now or is flash fire still more common?
Defensive sets usually use Flame Body, offensive sets use Flash Fire. Although both can use the other ability with success. According to Pikalytics, Flash Fire is used 53% of the time and Flame Body the remaining 47%.
 

Baloor

MORBIDLY A BEAST
is a Tiering Contributor
is flame body heatran the standard now or is flash fire still more common?
I don't think chalk fully answered this question and was a tad misleading in their response. Among tournament play both are used about evenly. What chalk said about offensive/defensive sets is incorrect as both are seen interchangeably on those sets. It mostly comes down to what your team is weak to. If you're super weak to physical attackers like weavile, you'll want to opt for flame body. If you're weak to volcarona and enemy heatran, you'll probably opt for flash fire. While defensive flame body/balloon flash fire are great sets and achieve their purpose well, you're not deadlocked into those sets if you want to run a certain ability. Balloon flame body and defensive flash fire also see a ton a play.

I'd say in tournament play flame body is a tad bit more common, however, if you're an average ladder joe its probably better to use flash fire to have a good matchup vs Volcarona as the moth can be a handful to deal with for the average player. Both are equally useful based on what your team needs defensively.
 
I don't think chalk fully answered this question and was a tad misleading in their response. Among tournament play both are used about evenly. What chalk said about offensive/defensive sets is incorrect as both are seen interchangeably on those sets. It mostly comes down to what your team is weak to. If you're super weak to physical attackers like weavile, you'll want to opt for flame body. If you're weak to volcarona and enemy heatran, you'll probably opt for flash fire. While defensive flame body/balloon flash fire are great sets and achieve their purpose well, you're not deadlocked into those sets if you want to run a certain ability. Balloon flame body and defensive flash fire also see a ton a play.

I'd say in tournament play flame body is a tad bit more common, however, if you're an average ladder joe its probably better to use flash fire to have a good matchup vs Volcarona as the moth can be a handful to deal with for the average player. Both are equally useful based on what your team needs defensively.
Really goes to show why this mon is S tier, it can do so much. Flame Body has strong mind game potential until revealed, but given that you can slot things like Lava Plume and Wisp, myself I've tended to prefer the mileage I've gotten out of Flash Fire. Balloon+Flash Fire gives you 3 strong immunities that really affect the plays your opponent has to make as long as your Balloon is intact, but I'd really only run this on an offensive set with certain speed investments, namely to outpace the slow Landos and a few other things. Another thing I've tried is speedy bulk sets with no SpA invested on Flame Body sets and it felt fine. Heatran might have the most customizable EV spread in the tier.

I have noticed too that with the increased usage of Flame Body, there are more instances in the Heatran vs Heatran match up, if I have Balloon intact the opposing Heatran will fire off a Magma Storm or another Fire STAB off almost half time to keep Flash Fire honest.

I haven't tried Phys Def Flame Body+Rocky Helmet, but I'd imagine with grassy terrain support or a wish passer that you could destroy u-turn spam teams that are so common. If anyone has any experience with Rocky Helmet on Heatran please share your observations here.
 
Yeah this forum is pretty dead. I hate to prod the bull and get the horns, but post-survey I think it's time to get discussion going about Quick Draw and Quick Claw. Myself and a few others have mentioned it and it has seen some light in months past, but now with Scarlet and Violet on the horizon it's reasonable to say we could see some action against something so fundamentally uncompetitive.

So, the question remains:

On a scale of 1-10, how uncompetitive do you find Quick Draw and Quick Claw in the current metagame? See: do you find Quick Draw and Quick Claw uncompetitive or balanced?

Is there anything else you feel the survey was missing?

[EDIT]

TELL FINCHINATOR HE DID A GOOD JOB!
 
Yeah this forum is pretty dead. I hate to prod the bull and get the horns, but post-survey I think it's time to get discussion going about Quick Draw and Quick Claw. Myself and a few others have mentioned it and it has seen some light in months past, but now with Scarlet and Violet on the horizon it's reasonable to say we could see some action against something so fundamentally uncompetitive.

So, the question remains:

On a scale of 1-10, how uncompetitive do you find Quick Draw and Quick Claw in the current metagame? See: do you find Quick Draw and Quick Claw uncompetitive or balanced?

Is there anything else you feel the survey was missing?

[EDIT]

TELL FINCHINATOR HE DID A GOOD JOB!
I'd personally say its a 9. The fact that the opponent gets something like a 40% chance to just ignore whatever check you have out in front of it and ko, especially if you end up giving it a free turn against one of your defensive mons to get a belly drum/np off.
 
Counter-point counter-point:

Just because something has seen minimal usage in the tier up to this point doesn't mean it isn't uncompetitive. Stuff like Sand Veil and other evasion based abilities and items saw little-to-no usage and success in competitive formats but were uncompetitive and had a visible impact all the same. Besides it has seen usage in high ladder (however little that means), if you look a few months back at this same conversation.

I don't think its recent usage has anything to do with the uncompetitive impact it has. This doesn't speak to previous usage, either. Funny point though lol.

[EDIT]

Now remembering that only covers Glowbro use too. Really doesn't shy away my point at all.
 
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Yeah this forum is pretty dead. I hate to prod the bull and get the horns, but post-survey I think it's time to get discussion going about Quick Draw and Quick Claw. Myself and a few others have mentioned it and it has seen some light in months past, but now with Scarlet and Violet on the horizon it's reasonable to say we could see some action against something so fundamentally uncompetitive.

So, the question remains:

On a scale of 1-10, how uncompetitive do you find Quick Draw and Quick Claw in the current metagame? See: do you find Quick Draw and Quick Claw uncompetitive or balanced?

Is there anything else you feel the survey was missing?

[EDIT]

TELL FINCHINATOR HE DID A GOOD JOB!
quick draw is a dumb gimmick and slowbro galar is Not Very Good but i still think the ability (and by extension quick claw the item) should be banned for being uncompetitive and luck-based like king's rock. sure, it doesn't let you flinch the opponent to death but it's still the same underlying issue and can result in cheesy kills
 

Martin

RIP AND TEAR
is a Live Chat Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Counter-point counter-point:

Just because something has seen minimal usage in the tier up to this point doesn't mean it isn't uncompetitive. Stuff like Sand Veil and other evasion based abilities and items saw little-to-no usage and success in competitive formats but were uncompetitive and had a visible impact all the same. Besides it has seen usage in ladder, if you look a few months back at this same conversation.

I don't think its recent usage has anything to do with the uncompetitive impact it has. This doesn't speak to previous usage, either. Funny point though lol.

[EDIT]

Now remembering that only covers Glowbro use too. Really doesn't shy away my point at all.
Uncompetitive is a buzzword that has been flung around so much over the past few years that it has lost virtually all meaning at this point, though it's debatable whether it even had any in the first place.

I really don't understand what the purpose of taking action against something that has virtually no metagame presence (and no meaningful metagame relevance) that isn't causing any problems and is overall an extremely weak/unrewarding option is. In the case of Sand Veil and Bright Powder, there was the argument that they sidestep an existing clause (with VeilChomp being significantly stronger than any other evasion strat besides pre-nerf Moody and maybe Minimize?), and in the case of Swagger, it actually had notable levels of metagame relevance to justify looking into it (while having more dubious counter-play and building semi-consistency the same way that Sand Veil did: with Substitute). We should ban things for causing tangible problems that can be backed up with data: not some vague assertion of "competitiveness" that, if the past 5+ years on this site has taught me anything, nobody on this goddamn site can even agree on a definition for because of how vague, meaningless, and made-up it is.

RNG isn't "uncompetitive" on its own, and that is all this really is: RNG. On its own, Galarian Slowbro is an extremely weak and inconsistent option with sorta underwhelming offensive stats (though it does at least have the benefit of being able to go Modest to partially make up for only having 100 bases) and a reliance on low-BP attacks like Psyshock and non-STAB coverage to do its job properly, making it extremely setup-dependent when compared to most other setup sweepers while usually having mediocre-at-best defensive utility. And as an RNG user, the odds are very heavily stacked against it.

In order for a QDQC proc to achieve anything, Slowbro must:
  • KO the target on the same turn that it activates (going first achieves nothing in a vacuum, as if both players move then it makes no difference)
    • Sweeps often depend on multiple consecutive procs due to how much less self-sufficient Slowbro-G is than most other setup sweepers, meaning that the success odds frequently go down from 44% to <20%, to <9% etc.
  • Hit a target who is attempting to Substitute versus you and dealing enough damage to prevent their Substitute going up
  • idk, probably some other niche scenarios like healing when you'd otherwise faint or boosting a defensive stat to take a hit or being protected by a Sub that wouldn't otherwise protect you, I guess? Does QDQC Bro even do any of these things?
It also has 100% consistent counter-play in:
  • Priority
  • Anything that can take a hit and retaliate
  • Not playing like a dumb fuck around Slowbro and respecting that QDQC is an option that it has (and is realistically the only thing it can do in OU that isn't strictly inferior to its competition) when building a gameplan
As well as slightly less consistent options (but still heavily weighted towards you if they let you get away with it) like Knock Off, which reduces the proc rate from 44% to 30% (and thus the consecutive odds become 30% -> 9% -> 2.7%…)

As the Slowbro user, you need to be able to create conditions where setting up a sweep attempt is actually viable, which requires a good sense of judgement, game awareness, and player awareness/conditioning and will test your ability to position properly, create opportunities, and identify key targets for weakening at both a builder and game level. You'd probably also benefit from heavily spreading paralysis to bring slow 'mons below the speed threshold and to add a third thing to fish for procs on, giving you a 1/4 chance to get away with murder when setting up and bringing your safe attack rate up to 58%, sorta like that Machamp+ParaSpam strat that you sometimes see in DP except shitter, gimmickier, less consistent, and requiring extra prior setup. Your reward? A moderately unrewarding setup sweeper that sometimes just won't co-operate when you need it to. A fun one, for sure, and one that will probably farm funny scrubquotes from a lot of opponents, but not a very good one.

I could also anecdotally mention QDQC's pitifully low usage in UU tournaments, alongside its pitiful record in them, as that is a metagame where Slowbro-G as a whole isn't utterly awful and outclassed. There are just no indications that this strategy is a problem… anywhere, frankly.

As for Quick Claw on its own, I find it laughable to even consider it as a problem. Discounting tournament stats for a minute, because I haven't been following WCoP closely enough to know if one guy decided to try and fish with it or whatever (if they did someone please link it to me bc I'd like to watch it) and at least afaik set data isn't collected anywhere, there is just no ladder data here that suggests that there is any kind of problem being caused by Quick Claw other than maybe a few dudes getting kinda salty about it on ladder. The only anecdote I can think of about anything that isn't represented in June's ladder data is fsr having a vague memory of someone mentioning Quick Claw Melmetal? Can't seem to find it anywhere on the forum outside of some post theorymonning about how Melm could potentially proc a Quick Claw and flinch past smth that would otherwise beat it, though, so it might just be a false memory.

Anyway, in the June stats, Quick Claw usage is high enough to show up as a blip for the following Pokemon:
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-06/gen8ou-1695.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-06/moveset/gen8ou-1695.txt

Pokemon usage rates:
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 90   | Slowbro-Galar      |  0.71894% | 31643  |  1.079% | 23755  |  1.017% |
| 136  | Araquanid          |  0.22428% | 18991  |  0.647% | 16673  |  0.714% |
| 226  | Turtonator         |  0.04496% | 4955   |  0.169% | 3584   |  0.153% |
| 238  | Aggron             |  0.03480% | 8889   |  0.303% | 6911   |  0.296% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
Quick Claw usage rates:
Slowbro-Galar: 77.939%
Araquanid: 15.728%
Turtonator: 5.828%
Aggron: 2.227%
Pokemon usage rates:
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 116  | Slowbro-Galar      |  0.19497% | 31643  |  1.079% | 23755  |  1.017% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
Quick Claw usage rates:
Slowbro-Galar: 88.435%

Given the complete absence of any notable Quick Claw usage outside of Slowbro-G, Quick Claw discussion is essentially entirely synonymous with Slowbro-G discussion. There just isn't any real data to suggest that this is even relevant, let alone problematic. And all of this is before considering that Quick Claw's functional value is dependent on all of the same factors as QDQC, meaning that it won't necessarily benefit the user every time it activates (unlike evasion and King's Rock, which both functionally prevent your opponent from acting on a given turn, which is useful no matter what). And once it has proc'd once (usefully or otherwise), you now know to factor it into your gameplan and play around that Pokemon accordingly.

Your options for fishing for good Quick Claw procs are very limited. Hell, I can't actually think of any off of the top of my head that don't leave the user directly in the line of fire short of your opponent opting to not engage with you. This contrasts directly with with Cloyster, which was not only naturally faster than the entire metagame but could also just repeatedly fish against anything that is forced to spam Recover between cripple attempts. It is also different from Sand Veil users like Garchomp, which could spam Substitute to mostly-safely fish for a free turn. Quick Claw users simply can not do that versus an opponent who is trying to attack them, as they can't use innate speed and firepower and/or the threat of setup to force specific actions out of their opponent to, in turn, create more opportunities for good procs. Realistically, your best bet when fishing for procs against an opponent who is attacking you is to put it on something like Melm that is bulky enough to tank a strong hit if something goes wrong, and even then it's probably not worth the hassle of trying to gimmick your opponent a lot of the time as it means you can't run Pads for contact protection on your 2-hit contact STAB or Leftovers/AV for consistent defensive utility or Choice Band for firepower.

There is merit in allowing inconsistent, RNG-centric options in the game when it is clear that they aren't realistically causing any problems. It improves the range of player expression, broadens the scope of risk/reward (the only thing that makes this game even remotely interesting as an alternative to something like chess), and being able to recognise bad procs (most procs tend to be bad procs in my experience) and adjust on the fly with this new information is a skill that can further differentiate players: RNG management is a skill, after all, and one that Pokemon places very high value on. It's also very, very funny more often than not, frankly, and while that doesn't particularly count for anything as a serious argument, I still want to bring up because this is a game at the end of the day, and not a particularly competitively sound one at that (especially compared to doubles).

This is also all before factoring in the handful of inarguably competitive and healthy uses for the item. For example: Quick Claw provides an option for moving before (and thus serving as counter-play for) faster Substitute stallers that trades consistency for being less committal than an item like Choice Scarf. This was apparently a thing that saw some niche slivers of usage in ADV before any action was taken against BP, as you could sorta noncommittally slap it on your lead as a bit of a fuck-you to Ninjask. Regardless, this is one of the few situations where fishing is actually something you can safely do, as an opponent who is alternating between Subsitute and Protect isn't actually posing an immediate threat to you outside of any residual chip or recovery they may accrue due to it, and even then they can still adjust their game plan if you get a bad proc vs them e.g. on a Protect turn). You could theoretically do something similar with QDQC Slowbro-G in a meta state where a Pokemon like VinCune or some fast SubSeed user that can't otherwise bypass it is common, and I'd argue that this would be entirely competitive and, depending on the potency of said Sub user and the amount/quality of alternative counter-play to it available, an incredibly healthy/important option to have available… though one that would still probably not be game-defining given the more broadly-applicable utility of Regen users like Toxapex, Slowbro, Slowking, and Slowking-G and strength-based wallbreakers like Nidoking and Tapu Lele as far as Poison- and Psychic-types go.

This whole debate around Quick Claw that has popped up this generation really feels like a storm in a teacup to me: people arguing based on emotion about something that at steals maybe a handful of games at most and is grossly inconsistent. Losing to it feels bad, sure, but there are usually other mistakes throughout the entire game that lead to you being put in a position where a good proc is enough to checkmate you. There a lot of dogma/rhetoric that floats around on this site that can essentially be boiled down to "luck bad," and more often than not, it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. If I wanted to reduce the level of agency that I and/or (generally more productively) my opponent has on the outcome of a game, I have so, so many other options that are more consistent, more fishable, and more potent than Quick Claw and Quick Draw are. Or I could just use a sweeper that has a predictable output, as time has shown that predictable output generally tends to trump risky alternatives with similar or higher potential output (and frankly, more often than not, Quick Claw strats don't have higher potential output than comparable strategies with predictable output).
 
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Baloor

MORBIDLY A BEAST
is a Tiering Contributor
?????????

C- Rank: Zarude

View attachment 442373
i know this is suppose to be a haha funny meme but realistically if this quick claw issue was as blown up as everybody is making it out to be, than it would have relevant tournament usage, which is not comparable to zarude at all. strategies with similar hax related game plans like kings rock and brightpowder + sand veil did see tournament usage before their eventual ban. why? because they had decently consistent approaches to get unfair wins. the only relevant abuser, slowbro-galar, is a painfully inconsistent mon that does not get a lot of opportunities to be a threat at all. a lot of teams can safely handle gbro on their own without thought in builder at all. despite me actually thinking gbro is relatively okay without the claw, the facts still stand that it never gets a ton of room to brief with his current qcqd set. it honestly baffles me how anybody is SEEING enough gbro to have this much of a issue with it even its ladder usage is low as fuck, let alone being nonexistent in tours. Ive probably seen maybe 5 gbros the past two months and only lost to it once that i remember because i threw hard. martin just made an essay on why this is ridiculous and the inconsistencies of this strat so i dont plan on breaking anything else down but this seriously just reeks of skill issue rather than being an actual problem. nobody is using this and just because you lost to the one person on ladder using it on their hax team doesnt mean we should nuke it. if this is a problem down the line im open to changing my mind as opinions can change over time but right now this is not a big enough issue to warrant this kind of response.

i know this thread has been pretty dead with no real discussion for a bit but we have had this convo in the past and its always ended the same way while at the same time being incredibly derailing. just talk about the actual survey or something lol
 

SetsuSetsuna

formerly suwa
is a Pre-Contributor
i know this is suppose to be a haha funny meme but realistically if this quick claw issue was as blown up as everybody is making it out to be, than it would have relevant tournament usage, which is not comparable to zarude at all. strategies with similar hax related game plans like kings rock and brightpowder + sand veil did see tournament usage before their eventual ban. why? because they had decently consistent approaches to get unfair wins. the only relevant abuser, slowbro-galar, is a painfully inconsistent mon that does not get a lot of opportunities to be a threat at all. a lot of teams can safely handle gbro on their own without thought in builder at all. despite me actually thinking gbro is relatively okay without the claw, the facts still stand that it never gets a ton of room to brief with his current qcqd set. it honestly baffles me how anybody is SEEING enough gbro to have this much of a issue with it even its ladder usage is low as fuck, let alone being nonexistent in tours. Ive probably seen maybe 5 gbros the past two months and only lost to it once that i remember because i threw hard. martin just made an essay on why this is ridiculous and the inconsistencies of this strat so i dont plan on breaking anything else down but this seriously just reeks of skill issue rather than being an actual problem. nobody is using this and just because you lost to the one person on ladder using it on their hax team doesnt mean we should nuke it. if this is a problem down the line im open to changing my mind as opinions can change over time but right now this is not a big enough issue to warrant this kind of response.

i know this thread has been pretty dead with no real discussion for a bit but we have had this convo in the past and its always ended the same way while at the same time being incredibly derailing. just talk about the actual survey or something lol
This is not really supposed to be a haha funny meme (at least from my part). I understand it may have come off like that which is why I deleted the post before you quoted it; that and the fact I agree with everything else you mention here. Since we are talking tournament and GBro has no usage I would like to know what even are the metrics for that, cause it feels like super subjective and weird rn.
  • Mons like Zarude are still ranked even though they haven't seen any tour play whatsoever in the last couple of tours (SPL and WCoP) and even less usage on ladder than GBro (90 vs 161 https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-06/gen8ou-1695.txt)
  • Blastoise got ranked with the reasoning being a link to 1 tour replay. Did that replay change your mind on stoise going from UR to C-? Then I am guessing we are just waiting on one tour replay of Gbro or Registeel 6-0ing rain, like the high ladder replays of that exact thing happening from time to time.
It just feels inconsistent, that's all. For the record I am guessing the reason this is being brought up again is cause we've been told Quick Claw/Draw haven't been looked into because "not enough people have mention it in the surveys"; thus if a portion of the playerbase feels like saying "hey let me all remind you, looking into qc/dq might be a good idea" should be perfectly acceptable. If nothing comes of it then that's fine too, Idt any high ladder/tour player is really that invested in this discussion.
 

Baloor

MORBIDLY A BEAST
is a Tiering Contributor
This is not really supposed to be a haha funny meme (at least from my part). I understand it may have come off like that which is why I deleted the post before you quoted it; that and the fact I agree with everything else you mention here. Since we are talking tournament and GBro has no usage I would like to know what even are the metrics for that, cause it feels like super subjective and weird rn.
  • Mons like Zarude are still ranked even though they haven't seen any tour play whatsoever in the last couple of tours (SPL and WCoP) and even less usage on ladder than GBro (90 vs 161 https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-06/gen8ou-1695.txt)
  • Blastoise got ranked with the reasoning being a link to 1 tour replay. Did that replay change your mind on stoise going from UR to C-? Then I am guessing we are just waiting on one tour replay of Gbro or Registeel 6-0ing rain, like the high ladder replays of that exact thing happening from time to time.
It just feels inconsistent, that's all. For the record I am guessing the reason this is being brought up again is cause we've been told Quick Claw/Draw haven't been looked into because "not enough people have mention it in the surveys"; thus if a portion of the playerbase feels like saying "hey let me all remind you, looking into qc/dq might be a good idea" should be perfectly acceptable. If nothing comes of it then that's fine too, Idt any high ladder/tour player is really that invested in this discussion.
last post regarding this in particular but the usage comparison between zarude and gbro instantly falls apart considering the fact people want to BAN qcqd while you just want to unrank zarude. I personally think zarude deserves his spot in C-, however, he is incredibly inconsistent and outclassed in OU, much like slowbro-galar. Outside of the fact nobody is using galar bro, this whole usage and rankings thing is very much a non factor. I personally have no idea if gbro is ranked off the top of my head when writing this but I do not see why blastoise getting ranked matters in the point of flat out banning qcqd. since you mentioned replays, for a ban there would need to be more significant replays in tours and high ladder games where qcqd bro is consistently a problem and getting wins from actually being busted and not somebody playing awful or bringing something with no outs which is highly unlikely unless youre playing rain/ho which in that case its just cheese vs cheese which isnt really a fair assessment of how good something is. also using a small sample size of replays from ladder in situations like this is typically not telling of something viability as ladder is notoriously plagued with awful teams and players who dont really know what they are doing, even into the higher elos. usage on ladder would need to be quite high for it to be considered important to look into as most of these current cases can just be written off as bad vs bad.

yes i understand why its being brought up, but the point is this is a repetitive cycle after the initial hax item ban every few months (typically around surveys) where a group of people try to get quick claw banned, but the survey just shows little support. its clearly just a case of a very vocal minority at the point we are at. yes losing to hax master johnny on the ladder once every 200 games can be annoying but like martin said most of the time by the time you're losing to gbro, you probably already choked earlier in the game. rng can be annoying but in the game we play theres a certain level of it we are forced to accept. as it stands, there is no usage of gbro outside of ladder, gbro is generally pretty shit, there is no actual problem outside of wanting a "quality of life" ban. again if theres a actual problem in the future than we can come back to this and I have no issue saying im wrong, but right now we are just regurgitating everything thats been said regarding quick claw the last three times we've had this "ban qc" wave while there continues to be no actual evidence that this is a broken strategy.

there is no point of mentioning other "abusers". gbro is the only mon that should be running quick claw in the tier. you're literally making 98 percent of pokemon worse by putting this item on it just for a small chance of funny.
 
last post regarding this in particular but the usage comparison between zarude and gbro instantly falls apart considering the fact people want to BAN qcqd while you just want to unrank zarude. I personally think zarude deserves his spot in C-, however, he is incredibly inconsistent and outclassed in OU, much like slowbro-galar. Outside of the fact nobody is using galar bro, this whole usage and rankings thing is very much a non factor. I personally have no idea if gbro is ranked off the top of my head when writing this but I do not see why blastoise getting ranked matters in the point of flat out banning qcqd. since you mentioned replays, for a ban there would need to be more significant replays in tours and high ladder games where qcqd bro is consistently a problem and getting wins from actually being busted and not somebody playing awful or bringing something with no outs which is highly unlikely unless youre playing rain/ho which in that case its just cheese vs cheese which isnt really a fair assessment of how good something is. also using a small sample size of replays from ladder in situations like this is typically not telling of something viability as ladder is notoriously plagued with awful teams and players who dont really know what they are doing, even into the higher elos. usage on ladder would need to be quite high for it to be considered important to look into as most of these current cases can just be written off as bad vs bad.

yes i understand why its being brought up, but the point is this is a repetitive cycle after the initial hax item ban every few months (typically around surveys) where a group of people try to get quick claw banned, but the survey just shows little support. its clearly just a case of a very vocal minority at the point we are at. yes losing to hax master johnny on the ladder once every 200 games can be annoying but like martin said most of the time by the time you're losing to gbro, you probably already choked earlier in the game. rng can be annoying but in the game we play theres a certain level of it we are forced to accept. as it stands, there is no usage of gbro outside of ladder, gbro is generally pretty shit, there is no actual problem outside of wanting a "quality of life" ban. again if theres a actual problem in the future than we can come back to this and I have no issue saying im wrong, but right now we are just regurgitating everything thats been said regarding quick claw the last three times we've had this "ban qc" wave while there continues to be no actual evidence that this is a broken strategy.

there is no point of mentioning other "abusers". gbro is the only mon that should be running quick claw in the tier. you're literally making 98 percent of pokemon worse by putting this item on it just for a small chance of funny.
I’ve seen a few melmetal using quick claw on ladder, mainly to cheese double iron bash flinch chances on things faster than it. Is it cheesy? Definitely, but a singular proc of quick claw on that monster could literally lose you an entire game because of how frail pretty much anything faster than Mel is. I don’t get why it’s so controversial amping the staff to ban it, most players hate it and I don’t think we realistically lose anything from the tier by getting rid of it
 
I’ve seen a few melmetal using quick claw on ladder, mainly to cheese double iron bash flinch chances on things faster than it. Is it cheesy? Definitely, but a singular proc of quick claw on that monster could literally lose you an entire game because of how frail pretty much anything faster than Mel is. I don’t get why it’s so controversial amping the staff to ban it, most players hate it and I don’t think we realistically lose anything from the tier by getting rid of it
*Saying everything faster than Melm is frail when the mons that outspeed and check it are
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8BDB96BB-7D86-4EDB-A66F-67C229DCD694.png
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09A765F4-C602-4DDA-879C-BA34B9BEC68D.png
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9D115EAD-EF15-45BA-9FBA-A3DC4E07CDD8.png
*
 
thanks to my ban and all that blablabla, i was dead for some months, and unfortunately for that reason i couldn't help my team in wcop or push the meta in the right direction this year, I came back a week ago and before all i want to give a shoutout to france for the magnificent job they did on this wcop, fully deserved as they pushed the metagame in the right direction and showed that not being a pussy pays off. Regarding the meta itself, I think we have some responsibilities, but if we are not open and constant in trying things I think we will never achieve stability in the tier. Personally, among the opinions that I have that could perhaps be tested if it improves the meta are:

- ban melmetal (he's a stupid Mon who should never have been in the tier)

-Do a suspect test on Toxapex

- Ban magnezone

- Try a metagame without boots (this can be in a sidetournament or in a new ladder)

Honestly, these are just some ideas that I could give, but I have even more, I don't know how this can be achieved, but I think that if something should be done to change it, it should be a set of constant decisions that help us find the perfect stability for the tier and it should be as fast as possible. Even bringing some mons from uber, but that is a conversation for another day.
 

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