Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Sorry for such a short post but I just want to give my summarized thoughts about the zamazenta argument. Whether or not you perceive it as broken or not, the majority of the player base believes that zamazenta-CROWNED should at least get a test. That’s a fact. Also, for those who are worried that it might take priority over something like zygarde, I can assure you that the council will almost definitely take action on zygarde and kyurem black before testing zamazenta-c. It’s pretty obvious that we should remove the broken elements of our own metagame before adding something new, and I hopefully believe that the council is of the same mindset
 
What is different about Zamazenta and Silvally being classified separately per item form than Genesect? I feel like a lot of these arguments could equally apply to a Genesect that is forced to run a drive instead of having band/scarf/etc options.
Drive Genesect has the exact same stats and typing as regular Genesect, putting it in the same boat as things like Keldeo, Totems, Toxtricity, and Meowstic (I personally don't really think that last one should be in this boat, but it is so whatever).
 

Nickos

Quack
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Just a heads up for all those posters trying to calc with Zamazenta and such:
The calc is currently bugged, as Dauntless Shield appears active (the +1 Def boost shows up in the calc) but it doesn't actually boost anything, you will need to switch Dauntless Shield to some useless ability like Damp and then give Zamazenta the +1 Def boost yourself for real calcs

For example, I've seen a Choice Band Victini calc previously on the thread, while it does still kill it, the damage difference is too big to just ignore in other calcs:
With Dauntless Shield "active"
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 530-626 (161 - 190.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With Dauntless Shield switched to Damp and the Defense boost applied manually
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-420 (108.2 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

More calcs for comparison in case you were thinking Zamazenta C's bulk wasn't actually that good, first ones are the bugged calcs, second ones are the actual ones:
Scarf Lando-T
232 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 254-300 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-200 (51 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
LO Urshifu
252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 406-478 (123.4 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 273-322 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cinderace
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 264-312 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +1 16 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 176-210 (53.4 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So yeah, its physical bulk is much greater than a lot of people assumed, of course, just blame the calc

Other than that, I'd love to see Zamazenta Crowned being suspected, for experimentation purposes of course, though I must say that a lot of people in this thread are greatly underestimating it just because you can stop it with the classic combination of Rocky Helmet and regenerator spam that we use to keep another broken mon in check (Yes, I do think Shifu is still busted), while 130 Atk itemless isn't as good, it's also more than enough to heavily dent or just plow through offensive mons, which I think will be the main victims of Zamazenta C, this thing is almost impossible to check offensively, as most attacks just fail to OHKO/barely even 2HKO it, while at the same time it can easily outspeed stuff like Latios while running Adamant and 236 Speed EVs (that's why I dumped the remaining 16 EVs into HP for the calcs above), or well, you could also run Jolly and outspeed Cinderace even, though the power loss is noticeable.

Anyway, keep Zamazenta Hero banned, suspect Zamazenta Crowned (after the busted stuff leaves OU ofc).
 
This issue with this is that Power Construct turns pokemon into Zyg100. Saying you are banning the form is banning the ability. This is a distinction without a difference. And the problem is that there is no set definition of what is a tierable mon. Is it a sprite change? Stat change? Is it by the cart data? That why I'm saying this definition should be made around stable forms. If it does it outside battle= different mon. Inside battle=same mon. This clarifies this distinction with a concrete rule.
Zygarde-Complete is seperately tiered then Zygarde, such as mega evolutions are tiered differently than their base form.
There is a clear definition of what is a differently tiered pokemon.


1. Stats
Zygarde and Zygarde-Complete have different stats, which is the main reason the complete version is banned, 216 hp is busted af.

2. Typing
This is why the Silvally forms are tiered differently, a change of type is different enough that all the forms have different checks and counters.

3. Movepool/Ability
Access to different moves and ability define a pokemon, a pokemon may be better than others due to having access to a certain move.

4. Dex Number
This is the last criteria for a difference, if none of the above apply to a specific pokemon, if it's national dex number is different than another similar mon, they are different pokemon. This is why Cascoon and Silcoon are tiered differently (Despite having the same stats, typing, movepool and abilities), while Alcremie forms are not.


As for pokemon that change forms within a battle, forms are tiered differently from each other, depending on the transformation method.

Let's take Galarian Darmanitan for example, the base form is banned, so the zen mode form is unable to be used, since it requires regular galarian darmanitan to be sent out. This is similar to the previous examples with Garchomp and Mega Garchomp, Mega Garchomp was tiered OU by technicality even though it's usage was not enough to hit the OU threshold, since regular garchomp is required to be sent out.

So what happens in the instance the base form of a pokemon isn't broken, but a variation of it is?
Well the form is cut off from the pokemon, even if it means cutting the pokemon itself.

In Zygarde's case for example, Zygarde Complete has been deemed as a pokemon that is too much for OU, so any way of being able to access it has been banned. The less destructive way of banning Zygarde Complete is banning Power Construct.

Now let's take another example, let's assume Castform-Snowy was a Uber pokemon, but regular Castform was not.
Castform-Snowy is obtained through the ability forecast, which could be deemed as uncompetitive, and a banning of forecast would ensue, the problem here is, that forecast is Castform's only ability, so Castform would be banned in consequence. (Banning the use of Hail on Castform is not an option since it is 1. a complex ban, and 2. Still able to be used through your opponen'ts hail or your own hail setter.).
The ban of Forecast here would be rendred instead to a Castform ban, since there is no way to stop castform from turning into castform-snowy, with the exception of banning hail as a whole, which is not the problem at play.

The only real inconsistency with this rule that i can think of, would be the Meowstic forms, as precised above, please tell me if I've gotten anything wrong.
 
What is different about Zamazenta and Silvally being classified separately per item form than Genesect? I feel like a lot of these arguments could equally apply to a Genesect that is forced to run a drive instead of having band/scarf/etc options.
Kind of related to my previous post, but the genesect forms do not have any of the differences I mentionned above, the only difference would be Techno Blast's Typing, which is not indicative of the pokemon's viability, but the move itself.
Kind of like how I'd say that a Raikou shouldnt be tiered differently wether or not it has a Rindo berry or a Wacan berry because it has access to Natural Gift.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
You know that is how you turn discussions into arguments. Your points are valid, but spoiler alert: it's easier to get people to listen to them if you suggest alternatives.
Like: "That set is not very good because X, Y, Z. Instead, this set works better because..." and so on. For real I've said enough at this point but anyway...
I'm not trying to jump into the middle of your argument, but I did just want to point out that MX42 did already do that. He spent several posts saying that he doesn't like the double dance set because it takes too long to set up and ultimately isn't that threatening to sweep even if it can set up, due to a lack of coverage. I will agree though that he was a bit abrasive at times trying to argue his position, but I thought that he made some good points. He does provide an alternative set that would be more immediately threatening and hit the metagame better by saying:
If anything will give Offense a headache, it would just be an all out attacker set. Just by going all out attacker you can take better advantage of what makes Zamazenta Crowned actually good. You have a decent attack stat and a good speed stat, use them. Do not waste time trying to double dance.
"All out attacker" refers to a set with 4 coverage moves, and presumably for Zamazenta-Crowned that would be Behemoth Bash, CC, and two of Crunch/Wild Charge/Psychic Fangs/maybe Ice Fang. As for EVs for that set, you're probably fine just running Adamant/Jolly 252 Attack and Speed, but some bulk may be useful.

So for the sake of clarity, those are the two sets you and that other guy are debating about: double dance or all out attacker. I'm not going to pretend like I'm super familiar with or spent that much time thinking about Zamazenta-Crowned, but to me personally, just using 4 attacks for coverage seems like the better option. That said, I don't think that Zamazenta-Crowned seems to me like it would be that good in OU. 130 Attack without an item isn't spectacular so it gets checked by too many common defensive options (physically defensive Hippowdon, Toxapex, Zapdos, Buzzwole, Moltres if it doesn't have Wild Charge or gets burned, Slowbro, Tangrowth, and more I'm sure I'm overlooking). Zamazenta-Crowned is weird to me because it obviously seems like it was meant to be a defensive Pokemon but it doesn't have reliable recovery so it's very susceptible to being chipped (not being able to hold Leftovers hurts it a lot in this regard) and it doesn't really get any good support moves like entry hazards or status, so it isn't a very useful defensive option. Maybe it was designed more for VGC (and I get the feeling like that's true for a good number of the gen 8 Pokemon, not like there's anything really wrong with that), but I don't know enough about VGC to say whether it's good or even allowed there yet.

Here's the thing though, all of this is just theorizing and ultimately doesn't mean anything. Why not just suspect Zamazenta-Crowned at some point? I get not wanting to suspect it right away with other more pressing things to look at, but if things like Genesect, Naganadel, and Landorus-I were given a shot in OU, why not Zamazenta-C? If it proves to actually be too good, it'll just get banned again. We won't know how good it actually is unless it gets tested. Maybe I'm overly simplifying things though and it's more complicated of a decision than I make it out to be - I don't know.
 
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Kyotoshi

Going Against God
is a Tiering Contributor
Genuinely I don't understand the pushback against AT LEAST testing Zamazenta-C in OU. It really feels like people are putting this mon on a pedestal just because it's a box legendary. The stats on paper are the only impressive thing about it and they're not backed by a good movepool. Not being able to hold an item is a huge hindrance on what sets Zama can actually get away with. Also to put in perspecive how much a damage boosting item actually helps a wallbreaker, Zamazenta-C's 130 base attack is roughly equal to a mon with base 87 attack running a choice band.

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Seaking Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%)
This is just laughable (base 92 attack btw)

A lot of the argument against Zamazenta-C that I have seen centers around it being too much of a threat to offense. That it's going to get behind dual screens and set up howl or agility and become a serious threat. Can someone explain to me how Kyurem-B, Zygarde, Magearna, or even dual dance Galar Zapdos aren't able to do the exact same thing to an arguably better degree? I mean I get that Zama is bulky but howl is just a pathetic boosting move compared to dd, coil, cm + shift gear, etc...
 
Another thing about Zamazenta-C is that it´s best move and most spammable move is Close Combat which drops both defenses by 1 stage which is so counter productive for a Pokemon that is supposed to be really bulky. With those defense drops it's bulk is just nowhere near as good specially from the special side (no pun intended at first but pun intended after seeing the connection) It´s other fighting moves are just not worth it because it needs all the power it can get since it has no access to boosting items. Pokemon like Melmetal are honestly way better since they have a no drawback powerful STAB, and is bulky enough from the physical side and can actually hold an item like Choice Band. Posts like ¨It shouldn´t be OU because it has effectively over 700 BST¨ doesn't really hold any water because high BST alone does not necessarily make a Pokemon broken. Is Tyranitar broken because it gets a free Spdef boost and technically has a higher BST than Kyogre? Was Kyurem B broken in Gen 5 because it had 700 BST? no. I could even see this dropping to UU. Come on guys lets unban this thing already.
 
Zygarde-Complete is seperately tiered then Zygarde, such as mega evolutions are tiered differently than their base form.
There is a clear definition of what is a differently tiered pokemon.


1. Stats
Zygarde and Zygarde-Complete have different stats, which is the main reason the complete version is banned, 216 hp is busted af.

2. Typing
This is why the Silvally forms are tiered differently, a change of type is different enough that all the forms have different checks and counters.

3. Movepool/Ability
Access to different moves and ability define a pokemon, a pokemon may be better than others due to having access to a certain move.

4. Dex Number
This is the last criteria for a difference, if none of the above apply to a specific pokemon, if it's national dex number is different than another similar mon, they are different pokemon. This is why Cascoon and Silcoon are tiered differently (Despite having the same stats, typing, movepool and abilities), while Alcremie forms are not.


As for pokemon that change forms within a battle, forms are tiered differently from each other, depending on the transformation method.

Let's take Galarian Darmanitan for example, the base form is banned, so the zen mode form is unable to be used, since it requires regular galarian darmanitan to be sent out. This is similar to the previous examples with Garchomp and Mega Garchomp, Mega Garchomp was tiered OU by technicality even though it's usage was not enough to hit the OU threshold, since regular garchomp is required to be sent out.

So what happens in the instance the base form of a pokemon isn't broken, but a variation of it is?
Well the form is cut off from the pokemon, even if it means cutting the pokemon itself.

In Zygarde's case for example, Zygarde Complete has been deemed as a pokemon that is too much for OU, so any way of being able to access it has been banned. The less destructive way of banning Zygarde Complete is banning Power Construct.

Now let's take another example, let's assume Castform-Snowy was a Uber pokemon, but regular Castform was not.
Castform-Snowy is obtained through the ability forecast, which could be deemed as uncompetitive, and a banning of forecast would ensue, the problem here is, that forecast is Castform's only ability, so Castform would be banned in consequence. (Banning the use of Hail on Castform is not an option since it is 1. a complex ban, and 2. Still able to be used through your opponen'ts hail or your own hail setter.).
The ban of Forecast here would be rendred instead to a Castform ban, since there is no way to stop castform from turning into castform-snowy, with the exception of banning hail as a whole, which is not the problem at play.

The only real inconsistency with this rule that i can think of, would be the Meowstic forms, as precised above, please tell me if I've gotten anything wrong.
I'm going to elaborate on this post a bit. As far as I'm aware, it's technically not Power Construct that's banned (although various things would lead you to believe otherwise), but rather, Zygarde-50% and Zygarde-10% with Power Construct are tiered separately from Zygarde-50% and Zygarde-10% with Aura Break. You can read about it from this Policy Review thread, where that was determined. A similar determination was made for Ash Greninja and Greninja. The logic behind this determination is that Zygarde with Power Construct and Zygarde with Aura Break occupy different slots within the game's internal memory (as opposed to something like Darmanitan), justifying that they be tiered separately (same with the Greninjas).

In my opinion this is very weird logic. Why should the game's internal memory be the deciding factor, when these two pokemon have identical appearance in team preview and upon being sent out, same dex number, access to the same moves? If we didn't have datamining we would never be able to make that distinction in the context of a battle. Sure, Ash-Greninja is technically a special form that can't breed, but that should have no bearing on the competitive scene. To make my position clear, I personally believe that Zygarde with Aura Break and Zygarde with Power Construct should be tiered together, rather than separately. They have more in common with each other than the Basculin forms, or the Toxtricity forms, on paper (which are visually different in addition to having different abilities and occupying different slots in the game's memory, and are tiered together), and in the interest of making a logically consistent metagame that's what I believe. Same with the Greninja forms, although they are not in gen 8. This recently came up again in a different Policy Review thread, focused on where the line should be drawn for tiering alternate forms, that I also recommend reading. That thread was more focused on Toxtricity, and is arguing basically the same thing that I am, that we should treat alternate forms consistently, and that the line in the sand should be straight rather than curved (although we may disagree where the line should be).

Mega Pokemon are the other big exception to this rule, and they are tiered separately as well, with the exception that Megas cannot be used in a tier lower than their base form (but they can be used in a tier higher). I feel less strongly about this one since it's such a big mechanic and it's possible to simply ban the necessary Mega Stone to ban them from the tier, but you can't argue that this doesn't fly in the face of consistency as well. Sure, there is precedent for banning individual items (like Soul Dew), but that's something that should generally be avoided if possible, and Mega Stones essentially get tiered just like Pokemon. The discovery of Slowbro-Galar-Mega in National Dex throws another exception into the mix. Currently, when you select Slowbro-Mega on Showdown, it defaults to regular Slowbro as the base form when you enter battle, and you can't run any moves only Slowbro-Galar would be able to use on it to make it default to a specific form. An ideal solution to that would be to be able to select Slowbro-Mega and Slowbro-Galar-Mega separately in the teambuilder, so that this is more specific. This doesn't even get into how you would tier this. Say that Slowbro-Galar got banned from OU, but not Slowbro-Mega or regular Slowbro. What tier would Slowbro-Mega be in, then? It would force you to tier Slowbro-Mega and Slowbro-Galar-Mega separately, which could be what's going on right now, but I couldn't find ANY info pertaining to that. While Power Construct is an ability, not an item, and there is precedent for tiering abilities separately as well (like Shadow Tag), but that's not what's going on currently (despite basically all reference to Power Construct in this forum to lead you to believe otherwise).

So what is the problem with our current system, besides the fact that I personally disagree with it? Well, on Showdown, and on the Smogon Dex, Zygarde with Power Construct and Zygarde with Aura Break are listed as one single Pokemon, despite being tiered as two, which is contrary to how they are actually treated. I'm really going to split some hairs here, cause I really value consistency. I know I can't actually make demands about stuff like this outside of PS suggestions, but in my opinion, one of the following should happen:

  • Continue tiering Zygarde with Power Construct and Zygarde with Aura Break separately. Update Showdown and the SmogDex to list Zygarde-50% and 10% with Aura Break as separate forms from their Power Construct counterparts, and put the Power Construct ones in Ubers in the teambuilder. Each form should have only Aura Break or Power Construct listed. Zygarde-Complete can either be selectable in the teambuilder or not, but if it is, it should have two forms: Zygarde-50%-Complete and Zygarde-10%-Complete, which each default to their respective base forms when they enter battle. I don't think that would be too confusing or hard to understand. To not retroactively break everyone's teams, you could have "Zygarde-Complete" in teams' importables to default to Zygarde-50%-Complete. On the SmogDex, Aura Break and Power Construct Zygarde (50% and 10%) should each have separate strategy pages, which can link to each other via hyperlinks, similar to what's going on on the Rotom formes' pages, for example. Additionally, anything pertaining to tiering in an official capacity should refer to "Zygarde-50% and Zygarde-10% with Power Construct" as opposed to just "Power Construct", for clarity.
or
  • Stop treating Zygarde with Aura Break and Zygarde with Power Construct as separate Pokemon, and tier them together instead. Instead, ban Power Construct from OU. Power Construct should be listed as a banned ability on this page. Also remove the little brackets around "Power Construct" on Showdown, or add them to Shadow Tag, Moody, and Arena Trap instead, just so all the banned abilities are consistent with one another.
or
  • Stop treating Zygarde with Aura Break and Zygarde with Power Construct as separate Pokemon, and tier them together instead. Ban Zygarde-50% and Zygarde-10% to Ubers.

I believe that similar things should happen in the case of Ash Greninja, and Slowbro-Galar, so that Pokemon Showdown and the SmogDex accurately represent Smogon's tiering to the greatest extent. Thanks for reading.
 
It doesn't need Screens to click Agility once, after which it KOs anything that isn't a wall.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 273-322 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
And if its check isn't directly in front of it the instant it comes in, it gets a Howl off because its check takes 2 turns to kill it and then everything on offense is just dead. The only offensive team that might be able to handle it is... A Zam Screens team. Yep. Whoever gets their screens up wins.

For being so assertive that it is easy to deal with, you are very handwavey when describing how you actually go about doing this. It's immune to poison, a turn spent para'ing it just is mirrored by a second Agility, it can't be Tricked or Knocked off, so the only way of actually crippling it is to burn it. And I'm sure a good player will be so kind as to allow you to do that.
And as for taking it out, if Specs Lele takes two attempts at it and V-create isn't a 100% kill, most mons will struggle much more than that with this. Basically, if it's Super Effective STAB and coming off a reasonable stat, or a neutral Choiced wallbreaker, it kills it in 2. Otherwise it takes 3+ turns to bring it down. Its Speed makes it impossible to revenge kill without taking a hit from it, it eats most priority (Banded Azu Aqua Jet does at most 25%, so does Banded Grassy Glide). And that's where the Screens are especially dumb, since they double the time it takes to bring it down, to the point you are going to have to use Banded Victini to try and stop it setting up, or have an Aegislash or something set up in parallel.
Anyway, I think I've had my say now and I have better things to do than explain that basically a Mega Metagross that trades overwhelming power for absurd physical bulk and more speed in a world without Megas is broken. I think this sums it up:

Once we've got the real brokens gone then we have another look at this sure. There's no harm in testing, but OU isn't so powercrept that it's ready for a Pokemon with actually beyond legendary BST (not an average mon that looks like a legendary because of an absurd outlier stat it never uses) and no real downside beyond "No item".
For god sake, the problem of Zamazenta Crown form is not its bulk, but its damage output. Back in gen 6, there is a better zamazenta called mega metagross, which hits harder and have more coverage. Yet offensive teams often have checks to deal with it, like Landorus or Mega scizor. Then back to gen 8, we have a Zamazenta that struggles to beat common STAB resistance offensive mons, gyara without wild charge, volc for risking 2 turns of burn chances, lando without Ice fang, aegis without crunch, victini without crunch. Hell, you need a lot of support for your double dance to work. First, you use veil or screens. If veil, then you are taking hail chip damage. If screens, you need 2 turns to set up. Then you switch into your Zamazenta to setup, which is turn 3. Then you setup, depend your set, meaning it leaves you around 4 turns with screens up. Which you opponent can hit you twice during you switch in and set up. so assuming a volc is going to attack you twice during your setup and attack.
252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned through Light Screen: 135-159 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 228-269 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so it does around 70% damage, and you aren't be able to beat volc and risk 2 turns of burn chance, still, what you have left is something around 30% health(lets also not talk about hail damage),while not being able to get double dance up, and still doesn't have the power to sweep another mon, so yea, double dance set kinda sucks.
 
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I don't think Spectrier is completely broken, but it should definitely be on the radar sometime after Zygarde and Kyube have been dealt with, and before we think about introducing Zamazenta-C. People go on and on about how this Pokemon lacks coverage, but does it really...need it? All this mon really needs is Shadow Ball and Hex for its attacking moves, and maybe Mud Shot on Specs sets, I guess. SubWispHex is an absolute demon of a set. Hell, Hex in general is stupid on this mon regardless of the set Spectrier chooses to run. So what if Ghost-resists "wall" it? They're either gonna get crippled by its Will-o-Wisp, or they'll be statused by their teammates and suddenly they're in range of Specs Hex (poor Mandibuzz isn't even a good switch-in if it's Burned, let alone Toxic'd). We already know about how Grim Neigh allows this mon to snowball opposing teams, but it really makes sacking mons to Spectrier a dangerous gamble. Hell, Shadow Ball Blissey has become a set thanks to this Pokemon.

That being said, it's not unstoppable. Infiltrator Dragapult outspeeds non-Scarfed sets and revenges it, you have the aforementioned Shadow Ball Blissey, SpDef Tyranitar can cripple it with Thunder Wave (although it struggles vs SubWisp sets), Mandibuzz doesn't take much but it doesn't like Wisp, banded Rillaboom OHKOes with Grassy Glide, and hell I'm even considering RestTalk Galarian Moltres as a possible answer to this thing since it's very bulky on the special side and it can be EVd to avoid the 3HKO from Specs Hex (although it requires a ton of special defense investment). The point I'm trying to make is, keep an eye on this MLP reject.
 

I don't think Spectrier is completely broken, but it should definitely be on the radar sometime after Zygarde and Kyube have been dealt with, and before we think about introducing Zamazenta-C. People go on and on about how this Pokemon lacks coverage, but does it really...need it? All this mon really needs is Shadow Ball and Hex for its attacking moves, and maybe Mud Shot on Specs sets, I guess. SubWispHex is an absolute demon of a set. Hell, Hex in general is stupid on this mon regardless of the set Spectrier chooses to run. So what if Ghost-resists "wall" it? They're either gonna get crippled by its Will-o-Wisp, or they'll be statused by their teammates and suddenly they're in range of Specs Hex (poor Mandibuzz isn't even a good switch-in if it's Burned, let alone Toxic'd). We already know about how Grim Neigh allows this mon to snowball opposing teams, but it really makes sacking mons to Spectrier a dangerous gamble. Hell, Shadow Ball Blissey has become a set thanks to this Pokemon.

That being said, it's not unstoppable. Infiltrator Dragapult outspeeds non-Scarfed sets and revenges it, you have the aforementioned Shadow Ball Blissey, SpDef Tyranitar can cripple it with Thunder Wave (although it struggles vs SubWisp sets), Mandibuzz doesn't take much but it doesn't like Wisp, banded Rillaboom OHKOes with Grassy Glide, and hell I'm even considering RestTalk Galarian Moltres as a possible answer to this thing since it's very bulky on the special side and it can be EVd to avoid the 3HKO from Specs Hex (although it requires a ton of special defense investment). The point I'm trying to make is, keep an eye on this MLP reject.
Definetly agree with this. Another set I'd like to point out is the Sub/Nasty Plot/Disable variant. It sets up on Mandibuzz without both Foul Play and Knock Off in the same set, Shadow Ball Blissey and both Bulk Up and Choice Band Urshifu. Although this is a little prediction reliant, as the opponent can predict the disable and switch out or even cripple Spectrier with Thunder Wave or Toxic in Blissey's case, Disable is often unexpected and most of the time very devastating.
 
Genuinely I don't understand the pushback against AT LEAST testing Zamazenta-C in OU. It really feels like people are putting this mon on a pedestal just because it's a box legendary. The stats on paper are the only impressive thing about it and they're not backed by a good movepool. Not being able to hold an item is a huge hindrance on what sets Zama can actually get away with. Also to put in perspecive how much a damage boosting item actually helps a wallbreaker, Zamazenta-C's 130 base attack is roughly equal to a mon with base 87 attack running a choice band.

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Seaking Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%)
This is just laughable (base 92 attack btw)

A lot of the argument against Zamazenta-C that I have seen centers around it being too much of a threat to offense. That it's going to get behind dual screens and set up howl or agility and become a serious threat. Can someone explain to me how Kyurem-B, Zygarde, Magearna, or even dual dance Galar Zapdos aren't able to do the exact same thing to an arguably better degree? I mean I get that Zama is bulky but howl is just a pathetic boosting move compared to dd, coil, cm + shift gear, etc...
We absolutely should test it, but it kind of gets tiring to hear the same counter argument every single time it's brought up.

"Look the fighting / steel can't even beat this defensive poison / water type LOL"

First off 128 base speed should probably let it run Adamant. That outpaces the base 110s which means you lose out on Cinderace and Tornadus... I think that's it right? Anyway back to Toxapex Adamant Howl easily 2HKOs with Psychic Fangs or Wild Charge. With some fuckery via rocks, sand, knock off, or basically any chip damage Pex is getting 2HKOed through Haze. Oh cute comparison to Seaking, a Pokemon with 450 base stats. Try comparing it to Zamazenta-C with effective base 801 stat total (816 with defense investment).

Let me say it again. Even without an item this thing goes far beyond Uber level base stats. Even Arceus forms, taking into account the 20% STAB bonus, caps at around 750 BST. You can use cute damage calcs about how easy this piece of broken shit can't handle some carefully picked wall match ups but lets really throw around some calcs. I'm going to go through all of OU and see how absolutely horrifying this is for the average team to handle. You can make anything look broken / fair with the right damage calcs but in the real world this thing has over 800 BST, two great STABs, enough coverage, and a less than optimal but still potent setup move in Howl. For the following I'm going to assume Howl + 3 attacks (3rd is Wild Charge but I'll explore alternate options) and I will consider both switching in on, and 1v1ing Zama.

Edit: I believe Showdown's damage calc displays Zama's shield as +1 def but doesn't actually calc it. For the following I'm using a Lucario at +1 def with Zama's stats.

Blaziken: If you run Jolly Blaziken is outrun and usually OHKOed by +0 Close Combat. Blaziken can't OHKO with anything.

Blissey: lol

Cinderace: It is outrun and takes 82% min from CC. Adamant LO Libero High Jump Kick deals 99% max.

Clefable: lol

Corviknight: Sp Def is 2HKOed by a raw CC / Wild Charge, phys Def is 2HKOed by +1 versions of the same thing. Can do absolutely nothing back unless it has Iron Defense.

Ditto: Ditto is Ditto.

Dragapult: Pult requires Specs to 2HKO with Flamethrower while Behemoth Bash easily 2HKOs. Twave Hex usually 3HKOs though WoW + Hex might win 1v1. DD Pult gets smashed unless LO Lonely Fire Blast hits twice and rolls high. Also worth noting is Jolly Zama outruns Modest Pult.

Dragonite: +1 Behemoth Bash 2HKOs through multiscale and with Jolly you outrun Dnite after a DD. Jolly Dnite EQ has a very slim chance to only 4HKO.

Excadrill: Obviously dies but even with Adamant LO Sand Rush EQ fails to KO.

Ferrothorn: Body Press 4HKOs while +1 CC easily OHKOs back. If Ferro is Sp Def raw +0 CC OHKOs.

Garchomp: Zama Howls in its face, eats an EQ, then KOs with CC. Chomp's EQ isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO.

Heatran: lol

Kartana: Scarf Sacred Sword deals like 55% (ignores +1 def) but without scarf it's always slower, even slower than Adamant Zama.

Kyu-B: +1 Adamant LO Fusion Bolt does 49.8 % max while Zama CC KOs back. That's of course the worst case scenario, normally Zama just KOs outright.

Lando-T: Zama usually loses but EQ doesn't actually KO while BB is doing about 40% to Scarf Lando and if defensive Lando comes in on Howl BB will do a solid 45%. Obviously Lando will win generally but the thing to take away from this is it takes a LOT of damage doing so and Zama can just tech Ice Fang to humiliate it. Also defensive Lando-T only 3HKOs with EQ and will generally not successfully counter Zama.

Latios: Specs Aura Sphere is IIRC the strongest move Latios has vs Zama and it does about 60%. Pretty much anything Zama has 2HKOs and +1 BB OHKOs. Adamant Zama is faster than Timid Latios.

Magearna: Needs Specs Focus Blast to get a OHKO and that isn't guaranteed even against 0/0 Zama. Behemoth Bash + CC almost always KOs max HP Mag.

Mandibuzz: +1 Adamant Foul Play 6HKOs.

Melmetal: If Zama has a Howl it OHKOs and nothing Melmetal can do, not even Banded EQ, can OHKO.

Moltres: 252/252 takes around 75% from +1 Wild Charge and even with recoil Zama will survive the Flamethrower. Granted Flame Body has a solid chance to activate and Moltres can Roost spam. Moltres is a good counter overall.

Pelipper: Wild Charge

Pheramosa: Needs Adamant Life Orb Jump Kick to have favorable odds of a OHKO.

Regielectric: Unless it's using Electric Terrain Specs Rising Voltage Zama is going to survive and retaliate with a CC OHKO.

Rillaboom: Banded Wood Hammer 4HKOs surprisingly, and Banded Drain Punch 3HKOs. Without Band everything 4HKOs at best and Howl into +1 CC OHKOs back.

Slowbro: +1 Wild Charge 2HKOs but it's still overall a bad match up for Zama.

Spectrier: Specs Shadow Ball has a decent chance to 2HKO while Behemoth Bash doesn't OHKO back at +0. Surprisingly this can actually 1v1 Zama at full, though it can't switch in and can die to BB after sandstorm chip.

Swampert: 1v1 Pert wins but if it switches in on Howl, or takes basically any chip over 20% it risks dying to two Adamant CCs. Zama survives an EQ followed by a post CC defense drop EQ most of the time.

Tapu Fini: Behemoth Bash can 2HKO sp def sets and Fini 5HKOs back.

Tapu Koko: Specs Tbolt does lol 55% while +0 BB does 80% and +1 KOs.

Tornadus-T: Heat Wave 3HKOs unless Specs or LO while Behemoth Bash easily 2HKOs. If you run Jolly Zama can Howl in its face.

Toxapex: This might win with Haze thus Zama is a balanced and fair 800+ BST Pokemon.

Tyranitar: fucking lol

Urshifu-Dark: Banded Adamant Urshifu Close Combat OHKOs... only 75% of the time. Not that you have a chance to do so, as Zama already KOed you.

Urshifu-Wet: Probably wins 1v1 but is OHKOed by +1 Zama Adamant CC.

Zapdos: Hard walls the shit out of this. +1 Ice Fang 2HKOs but you probably end up paralyzed.

Zapdos-G: +1 Wild Charge or Behemoth Bash should KO. You survive anything besides a high roll from Banded CC.

Zygarde: Thousand Arrows 3HKOs lol so you Howl in its face and 2HKO with BB. If Zygarde is defensive Thousand Arrows usually only 4HKOs.


tl;dr Zapdos is a hard counter, Moltres and Toxapex are good under most conditions, and Slowbro probably comes out on top. Otherwise for the most part Zama just fucks most of the tier 1v1 and if it can force a switch it has very few, if any true counters (besides Zapdos). And that's just looking at this thing in a 1v1 vacuum. What happens when your Zapdos eats a Toxic, or if Zama has Wish support, or if it's paired with other ridiculous breakers such as Rillaboom. You imagine a handful of checks on every team that hold Zama back on paper but in reality just how much of a push would it take for Zama to run you down? Unban this just to get the ZaMaZeNtA iS bAlAnCeD crowd to see how good the meta is with Zapdos / Moltres / Quagsire on every team. This thing has far better stats than Arceus rofl it has no place in OU.
 
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I don't see power construct on there...
Zygarde-C is banned from the OU metagame. Power Construct is the ability that lets it convert into Zygarde-C, so it's banned alongside it without being specifically mentioned. Sorry for the one-liner, OU forum staff.
The page Negative Charge is looking at hasn't been updated. If you type /tier ou in PS, you'll see "Power Construct" listed in the bans, along with some other bans that have happened.
chrome_gDumRb761O.png
Hopefully that clears things up for you and Sickist. I would recommend looking at the PS! rulesets in the future, since those are practically guaranteed to be up to date (thanks to the PS devs).
 

Kyotoshi

Going Against God
is a Tiering Contributor
We absolutely should test it, but it kind of gets tiring to hear the same counter argument every single time it's brought up.

"Look the fighting / steel can't even beat this defensive poison / water type LOL"

First off 128 base speed should probably let it run Adamant. That outpaces the base 110s which means you lose out on Cinderace and Tornadus... I think that's it right? Anyway back to Toxapex Adamant Howl easily 2HKOs with Psychic Fangs or Wild Charge. With some fuckery via rocks, sand, knock off, or basically any chip damage Pex is getting 2HKOed through Haze. Oh cute comparison to Seaking, a Pokemon with 450 base stats. Try comparing it to Zamazenta-C with effective base 801 stat total (816 with defense investment).

Let me say it again. Even without an item this thing goes far beyond Uber level base stats. Even Arceus forms, taking into account the 20% STAB bonus, caps at around 750 BST. You can use cute damage calcs about how easy this piece of broken shit can't handle some carefully picked wall match ups but lets really throw around some calcs. I'm going to go through all of OU and see how absolutely horrifying this is for the average team to handle. You can make anything look broken / fair with the right damage calcs but in the real world this thing has over 800 BST, two great STABs, enough coverage, and a less than optimal but still potent setup move in Howl. For the following I'm going to assume Howl + 3 attacks (3rd is Wild Charge but I'll explore alternate options) and I will consider both switching in on, and 1v1ing Zama.

Edit: I believe Showdown's damage calc displays Zama's shield as +1 def but doesn't actually calc it. For the following I'm using a Lucario at +1 def with Zama's stats.

Blaziken: If you run Jolly Blaziken is outrun and usually OHKOed by +0 Close Combat. Blaziken can't OHKO with anything.

Blissey: lol

Cinderace: It is outrun and takes 82% min from CC. Adamant LO Libero High Jump Kick deals 99% max.

Clefable: lol

Corviknight: Sp Def is 2HKOed by a raw CC / Wild Charge, phys Def is 2HKOed by +1 versions of the same thing. Can do absolutely nothing back unless it has Iron Defense.

Ditto: Ditto is Ditto.

Dragapult: Pult requires Specs to 2HKO with Flamethrower while Behemoth Bash easily 2HKOs. Twave Hex usually 3HKOs though WoW + Hex might win 1v1. DD Pult gets smashed unless LO Lonely Fire Blast hits twice and rolls high. Also worth noting is Jolly Zama outruns Modest Pult.

Dragonite: +1 Behemoth Bash 2HKOs through multiscale and with Jolly you outrun Dnite after a DD. Jolly Dnite EQ has a very slim chance to only 4HKO.

Excadrill: Obviously dies but even with Adamant LO Sand Rush EQ fails to KO.

Ferrothorn: Body Press 4HKOs while +1 CC easily OHKOs back. If Ferro is Sp Def raw +0 CC OHKOs.

Garchomp: Zama Howls in its face, eats an EQ, then KOs with CC. Chomp's EQ isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO.

Heatran: lol

Kartana: Scarf Sacred Sword deals like 55% (ignores +1 def) but without scarf it's always slower, even slower than Adamant Zama.

Kyu-B: +1 Adamant LO Fusion Bolt does 49.8 % max while Zama CC KOs back. That's of course the worst case scenario, normally Zama just KOs outright.

Lando-T: Zama usually loses but EQ doesn't actually KO while BB is doing about 40% to Scarf Lando and if defensive Lando comes in on Howl BB will do a solid 45%. Obviously Lando will win generally but the thing to take away from this is it takes a LOT of damage doing so and Zama can just tech Ice Fang to humiliate it. Also defensive Lando-T only 3HKOs with EQ and will generally not successfully counter Zama.

Latios: Specs Aura Sphere is IIRC the strongest move Latios has vs Zama and it does about 60%. Pretty much anything Zama has 2HKOs and +1 BB OHKOs. Adamant Zama is faster than Timid Latios.

Magearna: Needs Specs Focus Blast to get a OHKO and that isn't guaranteed even against 0/0 Zama. Behemoth Bash + CC almost always KOs max HP Mag.

Mandibuzz: +1 Adamant Foul Play 6HKOs.

Melmetal: If Zama has a Howl it OHKOs and nothing Melmetal can do, not even Banded EQ, can OHKO.

Moltres: 252/252 takes around 75% from +1 Wild Charge and even with recoil Zama will survive the Flamethrower. Granted Flame Body has a solid chance to activate and Moltres can Roost spam. Moltres is a good counter overall.

Pelipper: Wild Charge

Pheramosa: Needs Adamant Life Orb Jump Kick to have favorable odds of a OHKO.

Regielectric: Unless it's using Electric Terrain Specs Rising Voltage Zama is going to survive and retaliate with a CC OHKO.

Rillaboom: Banded Wood Hammer 4HKOs surprisingly, and Banded Drain Punch 3HKOs. Without Band everything 4HKOs at best and Howl into +1 CC OHKOs back.

Slowbro: +1 Wild Charge 2HKOs but it's still overall a bad match up for Zama.

Spectrier: Specs Shadow Ball has a decent chance to 2HKO while Behemoth Bash doesn't OHKO back at +0. Surprisingly this can actually 1v1 Zama at full, though it can't switch in and can die to BB after sandstorm chip.

Swampert: 1v1 Pert wins but if it switches in on Howl, or takes basically any chip over 20% it risks dying to two Adamant CCs. Zama survives an EQ followed by a post CC defense drop EQ most of the time.

Tapu Fini: Behemoth Bash can 2HKO sp def sets and Fini 5HKOs back.

Tapu Koko: Specs Tbolt does lol 55% while +0 BB does 80% and +1 KOs.

Tornadus-T: Heat Wave 3HKOs unless Specs or LO while Behemoth Bash easily 2HKOs. If you run Jolly Zama can Howl in its face.

Toxapex: This might win with Haze thus Zama is a balanced and fair 800+ BST Pokemon.

Tyranitar: fucking lol

Urshifu-Dark: Banded Adamant Urshifu Close Combat OHKOs... only 75% of the time. Not that you have a chance to do so, and Zama already KOed you.

Urshifu-Wet: Probably wins 1v1 but is OHKOed by +1 Zama Adamant CC.

Zapdos: Hard walls the shit out of this. +1 Ice Fang 2HKOs but you probably end up paralyzed.

Zapdos-G: +1 Wild Charge or Behemoth Bash should KO. You survive anything besides a high roll from Banded CC.

Zygarde: Thousand Arrows 3HKOs lol so you Howl in its face and 2HKO with BB.


tl;dr Zapdos is a hard counter, Moltres and Toxapex are good under most conditions, and Slowbro probably comes out on top. Otherwise for the most part Zama just fucks most of the tier 1v1 and if it can force a switch it has very few, if any true counters (besides Zapdos). Unban this just to get the ZaMaZeNtA iS bAlAnCeD crowd to see how good the meta is with Zapdos / Moltres / Quagsire on every team. This thing has far better stats than Arceus rofl it has no place in OU.
Yea that's great and all but I think you kind of missed the point I was making with those calcs. I'm not trying to show that toxapex walls Zamazenta-C because everyone knows that already. I was trying to show why Zama is inferior as a wallbreaker by putting its calc alongside another significantly weaker mon that has the ability to use choice band. Toxapex was just the mon that I happened to use as the damage-receiving mon in the calc since it's very relevant to the OU tier. Here I'll do it again:

252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Seaking Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 226-268 (55.9 - 66.3%)
 
The SS OU metagame is in a very interesting place, with several potentially broken monsters running around causing havoc. That said the winds of change are blowing in the form of the latest OU player survey, but I'm not ready to simply put my head down toward the future and not acknowledge some of the very cool Pokemon and team strategies that currently exist in this meta ruled by Zygarde and Kyurem-Black. As someone who has been doing a lot of building and playing the past two weeks I'd like to take the time to discuss some of the more interesting meta trends I have been seeing, before we go through another shift in the form of some likely bans.


As great as Zygarde currently is in the metagame, there are other Ground type Pokemon capable of finding success. I'd like to take a second and go over two of my favorites, and explain why they are solid picks in the current metagame.

SD Garchomp is a monster in the current metagame. The damage output at +2 is sort of ridiculous, several would be checks and counters simply fold to Garchomp. With SpDef Zygarde being the premiere Ground type in the tier a lot of team have started to use pseudo Ground resists like a Slowbro or Clefable + a Flying type and calling it good, but that just doesn't work with Garchomp who can power through. On top of this power, Garchomp has the same typing as Zygarde. Meaning it similarly can help switch into Heatran, and serve as the teams Electric immunity to keep Regieleki in check. On top of what was already great on Garchomp, it got a new toy this generation in Scale Shot. A multi hit move that raises Garchomp's speed, giving it the potential to clean teams. However, I am not the biggest fan of the set since Scale Shot is to unreliable to trust in my opinion. I still really like EdgeQuake on Garchomp, as it is sad how often people try and check +2 Garchomp with a Zapdos, Moltres, or Mandibuzz. The final slot has a lot of potential from Stealth Rock to Draco Meteor to a personal favorite in Aerial Ace which just shreds Buzzwole and opens games up for teammates like CB Urshifu-S a ton in that match up.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 286-339 (72.5 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 374-441 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 329-387 (81.4 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 376-445 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 426-504 (100.7 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 416-494 (99.5 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Nidoking is a really cool pick in the current metagame, that is more than capable of holding its own. It serves as a teams Ground type checking Regieleki, and unlike Garchomp and Zygarde it resists Dazzling Gleam from Tapu Koko allowing it to better check it. Nidoking is also a grounded Poison type, which is great to have in a meta where Toxic Spikes Toxapex seems to be getting more and more frequent usage. Aside from absorbing Tspikes Nidoking is pretty good on the utility front itself being able to set Stealth rock or Tspikes for its own team. All that said utility and defensive capabilities are not why you use Nidoking, it is for Sheer Force + Life Orb attacks that simply tear teams apart. Between STAB Earth Power and Sludge Wave, on top of great coverage options like Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and even something like Superpower to catch a Blissey the ability to tear bulkier teams apart is very prevalent. Also it is worth noting that at least I prefer King>Queen due to their speed tier. With mons like Heatran running around, Nido really cannot afford to be any slower. Overall though Nidoking rips apart a ton of common defensive cores right now, and has just enough defensive utility to find itself a home on successful teams in the current metagame.

Going back to last generation Zapdos was a solid OU mon and Moltres had a niche on some stalls, but with the introduction of Heavy Duty Boots these two have really taken off in the tier and most balances use one of these two mons. Being able to avoid hazard damage, along with strong defensive typing for the metagame, and abilities that spread status on contact have really helped these two find their place. I still worry about Moltres a bit more as it really dislikes being Knocked Off, meaning switching into something like Rillaboom can be difficult since a predicted Knock Off really hurts the longevity of Moltres, and it usually feels like a net negative even if you burn the Rillaboom. That said Moltres is still solid checking the likes of Pheromosa, Kartana, Heatran if Moltres is Scorching Sands, Melmetal, Buzzwole, and can even help vs Cinderace a bit among others. Zapdos checks many of the same Pokemon with the exception of Heatran, Cinderace and it fears the Ice move from Pheromosa a bit more, while better checking Rillaboom, Tornadus-T, Gapdos, and Tapu Fini. Overall these two are really solid picks in the metagame, and really good deterents to most physical attackers. When one of these two are in a game it creates actual negative consequences from clicking U-turn outside of potential Helmet/Rough Skin/Iron Barb damage, which is really nice for bulkier teams that want to avoid getting caught in the vortex. Also do not sleep on offensive sets from either of these two, they can put in work.

Buzzwole is everywhere right now, and for good reason. It walls Urshifu-S, Zygarde, Rillaboom, Kartana, Exacdrill, non-Fly Landorus-T, and is helpful against Pheromosa, Garchomp (mixed is a threat), Kyurem-B, Melmetal, among others. On top of checking a large portion of the physical threats in the metagame, Buzzwole is able to exert some pressure of its own being able to act as a wincon vs fatter teams thanks to Bulk Up + Roost allowing to help break down bulkier teams. I have really liked the combination of Buzzwole + Kanto bird, as the two in combination check most physical threats in the tier. If you have not tried Buzzwole yet I strongly recommend it, it feels like this thing always puts in work just walling some threat on the opposing team.


Spectrier is a very interesting mon as it basically relies on its STAB Ghost type attack, be it Shadow Ball or Hex, and still manages to be an incredibel threat in the tier. Its effect on the tier is definitely felt as it more or less warps the meta into finding a way to check it. I feel like this will only get worse as more sets like Sub Taunt and Sub Disable get more usage making would be checks fall flat, but only time will tell on that. All of that said I want to go over some of the main ways I've been checking Spectrier as it can be kind of difficult.

It shouldn't be much of a surprise that bulkier Dark types are seen as favorable options to checking Spectrier. It is kind of unfortunate that the number of viable bulkier Dark types is not bigger, but it is better than nothing. Mandibuzz is still solid shrugging off any hit and Roosting off the damage, Tyranitar has seen a shift towards bulky SpDef sets this DLC to better check threats like Spectrier as well as Volcarona and Zapdos, and Zarude has been finding a cool niche thanks to Jungle Healing as it is able to check both Spectrier and Zygarde, resisting their spammed stab and removing the status from Will-O-Wisp and Glare respectively.

Blissey has even started to run Shadow Ball to better answer Spectrier, but this is one of the adaptations that fear Sub Disable sets. Blissey is starting to feel a bit of 4MSS in the current metagame as it would really like Soft-Boiled, Seismic Toss, Shadow Ball, Toxic, Stealth Rock, and Teleport. Personally I am not the biggest fan of Shadow Ball Blissey and would rather run Teleport + something like Melmetal or Infiltrator Dragapult that can get in on the free switch from Teleport and threaten Spectrier even if it is behind the Substitute.

I mentioned Melmetal and Dragapult a second ago since they are very helpful, and similarly fall into this category with Heatran, but since Heatran does not have a way to hit a mon behind a Sub I am giving it its own section. Heatran is immune to Will-O-Wisp, and SpDef sets can stomach Hex and Shadow Ball well enough to help check it. I would not rely on Heatran alone, it is more a scenario of one of the first four mentioned: Mandibuzz / Tyranitar / Zarude / Blissey + Melmetal / Dragapult / Heatran, and you should be good to go.


That is all I had that I really wanted to go over in detail. I want to mention that Rain is really strong right now, and common on the ladder as it seems to be proving fairly consistent in a meta full of broken threats. Finally, I really hope the DLC2 metagame continues to develop well, as this is honestly the most fun the game has felt since SM for me personally.
 
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I don't think Spectrier is completely broken, but it should definitely be on the radar sometime after Zygarde and Kyube have been dealt with, and before we think about introducing Zamazenta-C. People go on and on about how this Pokemon lacks coverage, but does it really...need it? All this mon really needs is Shadow Ball and Hex for its attacking moves, and maybe Mud Shot on Specs sets, I guess. SubWispHex is an absolute demon of a set. Hell, Hex in general is stupid on this mon regardless of the set Spectrier chooses to run. So what if Ghost-resists "wall" it? They're either gonna get crippled by its Will-o-Wisp, or they'll be statused by their teammates and suddenly they're in range of Specs Hex (poor Mandibuzz isn't even a good switch-in if it's Burned, let alone Toxic'd). We already know about how Grim Neigh allows this mon to snowball opposing teams, but it really makes sacking mons to Spectrier a dangerous gamble. Hell, Shadow Ball Blissey has become a set thanks to this Pokemon.

That being said, it's not unstoppable. Infiltrator Dragapult outspeeds non-Scarfed sets and revenges it, you have the aforementioned Shadow Ball Blissey, SpDef Tyranitar can cripple it with Thunder Wave (although it struggles vs SubWisp sets), Mandibuzz doesn't take much but it doesn't like Wisp, banded Rillaboom OHKOes with Grassy Glide, and hell I'm even considering RestTalk Galarian Moltres as a possible answer to this thing since it's very bulky on the special side and it can be EVd to avoid the 3HKO from Specs Hex (although it requires a ton of special defense investment). The point I'm trying to make is, keep an eye on this MLP reject.
Id like to mention how on certain teams and sets, Calm Mind is actually better than Nasty Plot as Spectrier's boosting move. If you Sub-Disable their opposing Spectrier "counter" and you get free turns of set up, Calm Mind is better because it defends you more against most of the pokemon who can reliably revenge kill Spectrier naturally: Eleki and Pult. It also defends against Shadow Ball Blissey. I for one really like the set Sub-Disable-Calm Mind-Dark Pulse, as many of the OU dark resists are A: Special Attacking (Magearna, Clefable) B: Defensive and only have 1 attacking move (Mandibuzz, Sball Blissey) or C: Choice Locked (Urshifu, Gapdos). I haven't tested it personally, so I might be idealizing. Although Dark Pulse at +6 doesn't 2HKO Blissey, it has no way to touch you can you can fish for flinches in peace. Oddly, this set loses to non-ghost resists like Knock-Haze pex or spdef invested Hippowdon, as well as Ttar. Many times they might just let you set up, though, as I don't know anyone who's willing to switch in Toxapex to a sub Spectrier.
 
I heard a lot of people wanting to see Zamazenta-C be unbanned, but I don't see why.

I keep seeing a lot of people discuss about things that can tank hits from it, such as Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Dragapult, and other medium to good bulk Pokemon.
Among these, they forget that Zamazenta has HUGE Bulk. Effectively 92/226/145 bulk thanks to Dauntless Shield, while also being part Steel.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 250-295 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Look at this ridiculous amount of bulk. Only 64 EVs in HP, and this thing can tank a CS Hex after being Burned from Spectrier.
And this is from it's frailer side of defenses as well.
And let's also not forget that Zamazenta-C has a x4 resistance to Stealth Rock, and immunity to Toxic/Toxic Spikes, and an immunity to Sand.

Even if Zamazenta-C isn't 2HKOing absolutely everything, something it can circumvent with Howl since without boosts Zamazenta-C is still hitting those Pokemon that can tank a Close Combat or Wild Charge for about 40% HP.
With it's combination of Speed, Bulk, and Power, what exactly are you supposed to do?

Outspeeding Zamazenta-C requires one of the coveted Speed Lords in Regieleki/Dragapult, but even with very little investment, Zamazenta can still easily tank their attacks, and have some option for them. The other option is using a choice scarfer, but how many Scarfers can easily switch into a Close Combat or Behemoth Bash while still being able to KO it? Both option disapear when Zamazenta-C just runs Agility to easily sweep a weakened team. With Max speed EVs and a neutral nature, Zamazenta speed ties +3 Jolly Blaziken.

For defensive answers, what are you going to do? It shrugs off so many of the weaker attacks, has Howl, which will win a Haze war due to having much more PP and constantly focing Haze on Toxapex, and can't be worn down by Toxic or Sand. It can be burned, but if Zamazenta-C decides to run Sub or has Cleric support, you're never going to force it out defensively.

There are strong Wallbreakers that can do a huge chunk of damage, such as Urshifu or Landorus-t, but neither outspeed Zamazenta, the former requires Choice Band, and the latter only KOs after an Earthquake or Close Combat drop. Hell, not even CB Kartana with Sacred Sword is able to OHKO an uninvested Zamazenta-C.
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Zamazenta-C requires multiple Pokemon to just be able to kill it, or requires some of the tier's strongest wallbreakers DESPITE it being a fast offensive Pokemon that's hard to wear down due to it's typing only having to really worry about Spikes.
Also God forbid Blissey and Tornadus-T in conjunction with Zamazenta-C to patch up the few weaknesses it has in Burns, Spikes, and a lack of healing.

On top of this, we already have a bunch of insane things in the Meta to already deal with like Zygarde and Kyurem-B. We don't another bulky hard hitting threat, but now being even harder to kill and already having good speed.
 
I heard a lot of people wanting to see Zamazenta-C be unbanned, but I don't see why.

I keep seeing a lot of people discuss about things that can tank hits from it, such as Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Dragapult, and other medium to good bulk Pokemon.
Among these, they forget that Zamazenta has HUGE Bulk. Effectively 92/226/145 bulk thanks to Dauntless Shield, while also being part Steel.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 250-295 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Look at this ridiculous amount of bulk. Only 64 EVs in HP, and this thing can tank a CS Hex after being Burned from Spectrier.
And this is from it's frailer side of defenses as well.
And let's also not forget that Zamazenta-C has a x4 resistance to Stealth Rock, and immunity to Toxic/Toxic Spikes, and an immunity to Sand.

Even if Zamazenta-C isn't 2HKOing absolutely everything, something it can circumvent with Howl since without boosts Zamazenta-C is still hitting those Pokemon that can tank a Close Combat or Wild Charge for about 40% HP.
With it's combination of Speed, Bulk, and Power, what exactly are you supposed to do?

Outspeeding Zamazenta-C requires one of the coveted Speed Lords in Regieleki/Dragapult, but even with very little investment, Zamazenta can still easily tank their attacks, and have some option for them. The other option is using a choice scarfer, but how many Scarfers can easily switch into a Close Combat or Behemoth Bash while still being able to KO it? Both option disapear when Zamazenta-C just runs Agility to easily sweep a weakened team. With Max speed EVs and a neutral nature, Zamazenta speed ties +3 Jolly Blaziken.

For defensive answers, what are you going to do? It shrugs off so many of the weaker attacks, has Howl, which will win a Haze war due to having much more PP and constantly focing Haze on Toxapex, and can't be worn down by Toxic or Sand. It can be burned, but if Zamazenta-C decides to run Sub or has Cleric support, you're never going to force it out defensively.

There are strong Wallbreakers that can do a huge chunk of damage, such as Urshifu or Landorus-t, but neither outspeed Zamazenta, the former requires Choice Band, and the latter only KOs after an Earthquake or Close Combat drop. Hell, not even CB Kartana with Sacred Sword is able to OHKO an uninvested Zamazenta-C.
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Zamazenta-C requires multiple Pokemon to just be able to kill it, or requires some of the tier's strongest wallbreakers DESPITE it being a fast offensive Pokemon that's hard to wear down due to it's typing only having to really worry about Spikes.
Also God forbid Blissey and Tornadus-T in conjunction with Zamazenta-C to patch up the few weaknesses it has in Burns, Spikes, and a lack of healing.

On top of this, we already have a bunch of insane things in the Meta to already deal with like Zygarde and Kyurem-B. We don't another bulky hard hitting threat, but now being even harder to kill and already having good speed.
Well normal Zamazenta may be unbanned. Zamazenta -C is frighteningly bulky, not even including Dauntless Shield which makes it more tanky on the physical side. I am still thinking of what item to run on normal Zamazenta, so if you have any suggestions thank you.

Post sets or GTFO. On another note I do agree that Pheromosa is quite good with Drill run, Triple Axel, Uturn and CC/HJK. The only one I'm having trouble is whether Mosa wants Band, Scarf or Boots
Oh sorry I will post a set.

Pheromosa @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-Turn
- Poison Jab
- Throat Chop
I have been using this set in Sword and Shield OU. It makes for a pretty nice pivot. Its speed lets it get the jump on even Dragapult (non-scarfed of course). You could also run Ice Beam to nail Landorus-T.

I am so happy that Salamence has received Dual Wingbeat. It never had a good physical flying stab move outside of Mega Salamence's Aerialite Double-Edge and Return. Here are two sets you can use:
Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake

Salamence @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
I like using these sets. The first set is a classic dragon dance moxie set, this time improved Heavy-Duty Boots. The boots are very useful for not being chipped by stealth rocks which Salamence is weak to due to its flying type. This set allows you to boost up, outspeed things that would normally outspeed such as Garchomp, Pheromosa, Tapu Koko etc. The second set is an immediately threatening Choice Bander. It hits hard due to its great 135 base attack stat plus the 1.5% boost to that attack from choice band. This set is meant to break open holes rather than sweep. These broken holes can help your hazard setters and sweepers dominate mid to late game. Both sets have a Jolly nature so that Salamence can make the most out of its good speed. I hope this helps. Here is a special set that you can use to threaten physical walls or Pokemon that can match up well such as Landorus-T or Corviknight.
Salamence @ Choice Specs
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump / Surf
Finally if you want it here is False Swipe Gamings competitive overview of Salamence from generations 3 to 6.

TPP edit: please avoid double posting in the future. I went ahead and merged all your posts into 1 post
Oh yeah sorry I didn't know how to do that before.
 
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I heard a lot of people wanting to see Zamazenta-C be unbanned, but I don't see why.

I keep seeing a lot of people discuss about things that can tank hits from it, such as Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Dragapult, and other medium to good bulk Pokemon.
Among these, they forget that Zamazenta has HUGE Bulk. Effectively 92/226/145 bulk thanks to Dauntless Shield, while also being part Steel.
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 250-295 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Look at this ridiculous amount of bulk. Only 64 EVs in HP, and this thing can tank a CS Hex after being Burned from Spectrier.
And this is from it's frailer side of defenses as well.
And let's also not forget that Zamazenta-C has a x4 resistance to Stealth Rock, and immunity to Toxic/Toxic Spikes, and an immunity to Sand.

Even if Zamazenta-C isn't 2HKOing absolutely everything, something it can circumvent with Howl since without boosts Zamazenta-C is still hitting those Pokemon that can tank a Close Combat or Wild Charge for about 40% HP.
With it's combination of Speed, Bulk, and Power, what exactly are you supposed to do?

Outspeeding Zamazenta-C requires one of the coveted Speed Lords in Regieleki/Dragapult, but even with very little investment, Zamazenta can still easily tank their attacks, and have some option for them. The other option is using a choice scarfer, but how many Scarfers can easily switch into a Close Combat or Behemoth Bash while still being able to KO it? Both option disapear when Zamazenta-C just runs Agility to easily sweep a weakened team. With Max speed EVs and a neutral nature, Zamazenta speed ties +3 Jolly Blaziken.

For defensive answers, what are you going to do? It shrugs off so many of the weaker attacks, has Howl, which will win a Haze war due to having much more PP and constantly focing Haze on Toxapex, and can't be worn down by Toxic or Sand. It can be burned, but if Zamazenta-C decides to run Sub or has Cleric support, you're never going to force it out defensively.

There are strong Wallbreakers that can do a huge chunk of damage, such as Urshifu or Landorus-t, but neither outspeed Zamazenta, the former requires Choice Band, and the latter only KOs after an Earthquake or Close Combat drop. Hell, not even CB Kartana with Sacred Sword is able to OHKO an uninvested Zamazenta-C.
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Zamazenta-C requires multiple Pokemon to just be able to kill it, or requires some of the tier's strongest wallbreakers DESPITE it being a fast offensive Pokemon that's hard to wear down due to it's typing only having to really worry about Spikes.
Also God forbid Blissey and Tornadus-T in conjunction with Zamazenta-C to patch up the few weaknesses it has in Burns, Spikes, and a lack of healing.

On top of this, we already have a bunch of insane things in the Meta to already deal with like Zygarde and Kyurem-B. We don't another bulky hard hitting threat, but now being even harder to kill and already having good speed.
Well main thing is not about its bulk, but its damage output, so you think that +1 zama is strong, wrong!
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 228-269 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
that thing even hit less than banded seaking lol and it even cant ohko a 0hp volc at +1
without wild charge, water types walls it, without crunch, aegis and victini checks it, defensive lando t can check it without ice fang. without steel type moves, clefable checks it, buzzhole checks it without psychic fangs or play rough. Blacephalon resists it both stab. zapdos checks it without ice fang, moltres walls it without wild charge. So at the end, we have enough checks to deal it both offensively and defensively.
Basically this meta doesn't check things with only 1 pokemon, but multiple ,like how they deal with urshifu and melmetal. So basically Zamazenta works like that.
 
Zamazenta-C might be more useful as a wall/stall with dual screens, Sub and Rest, than an attacker. It's obvious that it's nowhere near strong enough to run a 4 attacking moveset since it has only Howl and no item.

This is a potential stall set if it gets unbanned.

Zamazenta-Crowned
252 HP, 252 SpD, Careful nature
- Substitute
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Rest

I don't see its attacking sets do anything worthwhile, Urshifu-S and Melmetal are much, much better at those. One issue is that this set gets shut down by taunt users, but that's easy to fix (replace either reflect/light screen with an attacking move)
 
I want to talk about Tornadus, well mostly Tornadus-Therian. Here is a Nasty Plot set:
Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Grass Knot
- Heat Wave / Focus Blast / Superpower (change the nature if you're using this)
This set aims to boost and then potentially sweep. Air slash provides a stab move that has good accuracy and a solid 30% flinch rate. Tornadus-Therian can use its bulk to safely set up. If you want to be more safe use substitute. Grass Knot can smack ground, rock. water types (heavier ones preferably). Heat Wave applies great offensive pressure against steel types, especially scizor and ferrothorn. Hurricane is a stronger stab but its also less accurate. You can attempt to solve this accuracy issue with a Wide Lens or using Tornadus-Therian on a rain team (Hurricane does not check accuracy in rain). Here is a set for Tornadus (basic form non Therian):
Tornadus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Tailwind
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Taunt/Rain Dance
This set uses some of Tornadus supportive capabilities while still applying some offensive pressure. Taunt helps shut down set-up and stall Pokemon that could potentially cause problems for your team early game. Tailwind can give crucial speed support to slower Pokemon such as Nidoking, Chandelure, and Mamoswine. It can also be used to make fast Pokemon even faster such as Dragapult and Regieleki. Life Orb boosted Superpower can help knock out chipped down rock and steel types. Hurricane boosted by stab and Life Orb hits pretty hard given that Tornadus has 125 Special Attack. You can replace Taunt with Rain Dance if you want, you will just be limiting your stallbreaking, but it can be worth allowing your powerful Hurricanes to never miss. The best part about this set is that all of the support moves go first because of Prankster. If you don't know what Prankster does here is the description: This Pokemon's Status moves have priority raised by 1, but Dark types are immune. The final set is a bulky pivot Tornadus-Therian:
Tornadus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
This set is very useful for tanking hits and doing good damage. We are now running Hurricane over Air Slash as this set doesn't have a way to boost its power. Heat Wave is still here for smacking steel types (now it's definitely more for Scizor and Ferrothorn as Tornadus-Therian only threatened other steel types out at plus 2 from Nasty Plot). Knock Off removes the opposing Pokemon's item, I can see this being useful to knock off all the Life Orbs, choice items, Leftovers especially and other items. U-Turn helps Tornadus-Therian Pivot out of bad matchups or switch out for some chip damage when its at low health. U-Turn pairs perfectly with Regenerator. If you don't know Regenerator heals 1/3rd of the Pokemons hp when it switches out. This means you can Pivot out with U-Turn and heal damage off of Tornadus-Therian. I hope this helps you choose or build your own set.
Also here is the Smogon Strategy Dex Page for Both Tornadus Forms: https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/tornadus-therian/
 
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that thing even hit less than banded seaking lol and it even cant ohko a 0hp volc at +1
And how long is Seaking going to last during a match? And how high in the speed tier is Banded Seaking too?
That's the issue with Zamazenta-C. It's doing pretty good damage while also absorbing so much from the strongest attacks to all sorts of passive damage.
The underlying point isn't that Zamazenta-C can do a lot of damage in 1 attack, it's that it can deal a lot of damage over matches while also being unphased by several things you can throw at it.
And that is still pretty good damage coming from something that bulky and fast.
without wild charge, water types walls it, without crunch, aegis and victini checks it, defensive lando t can check it without ice fang. without steel type moves, clefable checks it, buzzhole checks it without psychic fangs or play rough. zapdos checks it without ice fang, moltres walls it without wild charge.
Uh huh.
Water types against Non-WC Zamazenta-C:
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 157-186 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 116-137 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Only Toxapex can wall Zamazenta-C lacking Wild Charge
Aegislash/Victini against pretty much any Zamazenta-C:
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 156-183 (59.7 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 67-79 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Unless you seriously want to use defensive Aegislash, it's not even a counter thanks to Behemoth Blade and Howl. Also why would you use Aegislash in a Meta where it's just food for Spectrier and Urshifu? It's fallen off in viability since the DLCs.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 108-128 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With enough chip damage, Zamazenta easily deals with Banded Vicitini, and Scarf Victini (from last gen as Vicitini has no sets on the analysis page currently) can't even OHKO with V-Create
4 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 282-332 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defensive Landorus-T against Ice Fang-less Zamazenta-C:
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 106-126 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Landorus-T can pivot around Zamazenta 4 times without Howl, which is very underwhelming giving Zamazenta's amazing longevity. If Zamazenta-C has Howl, Lando-T is then 2HKO, which makes it hard for it to switch in again without amazing support.
Clefable against Zamazenta-C:
+2 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 189-222 (47.9 - 56.3%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Close Combat still does a ton of damage, and +2 can force Clefable to spam healing. Meanwhile, thanks to it's 92/145 Special Bulk, Clefable can't do anything in return, making it incredibly easy to set up Howls, only needing 2 to force Clefable out.
Buzzwole against Zamazenta-C:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 165-195 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Pretty much the closest thing to a Zamazenta counter in OU, but we can say the same thing about Marshadow as well.
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 114-136 (27.2 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But should Marshadow be unbanned? It's only way of breaking past Buzzwole is Bulk Up, but that's what these scenarios are about. Assuming the best case scenario that will undoubtly be in favor of you.
Zapdos/Moltres against Zamazenta not using its respective Super Effective moves:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- 92.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 208 HP / 60 Def Moltres: 165-194 (44.2 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Decent, but like before, they really can't do much to Zamazenta in return thanks to its bulk.
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. -1 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 254-302 (74.4 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. -1 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 180-214 (52.7 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and again, it only needs some prior chip damage from its teammates (probably a Knock Off for Boots) to make it impossible to beat Zamazenta-C.

Blacephalon resists it both stab.
Basically this meta doesn't check things with only 1 pokemon, but multiple ,like how they deal with urshifu and melmetal. So basically Zamazenta works like that.
[/QUOTE]
Urshifu is easier to check thanks to the DLC giving us Buzzwole and Galarian Zapdos, where before you had to abuse it's Choice Lock weakness to wall it. Something much easier to do than with something that can freely choose its moves. It is also much easier to actually do something to Urshifu with it not exactly being the bulkiest Pokemon and not having any passive damage immunities. Also Melmetal easier to check in this meta as well. It still has only alright Special Bulk and horrible speed.
An immunity to Toxic/Sand, having sky high bulk, and outspeeding most of the Metagame is something those 2 Pokemon do not have, while Zamazenta-C does, at the cost of some fire power.
 

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