Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I was thinking of Boots Glastrier a while back, but like you said, I wanted immediate power so once it got a chilling neigh boost it would hit incredibly hard. So Expert Belt is a pretty good alternative..
I was using HDB Swords Dance Glastier in conjunction with Double Screens+Yawn+Trick Room Meowstick, which allowed Glastier to leverage its massive bulk with screen support and not be compromised by hazards, letting it set up SD with ease.

Behind screens this is one faaaaaat pony.
 
Now I may have completely missed the trend here but I have laddered three separate teams to 1700 with this guy and not seen a single one in my entire trip through the tier.. I give you... AV Buzzwole:
Buzzwole @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 172 HP / 100 Atk / 44 Def / 192 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake

The EVs are not optimized at all, but holy crap, this thing can really catch your opponent off guard and will outright win you games that you otherwise might be in a really tough spot in. Stone Edge is solely for Moltres/Zapdos as people love to think that the birds can just infinitely switch into/stay in on Buzzwole but it obviously OHKO's Moltres and forces a roost from Zapdos to which you can either switch on or go for the earthquake which WILL tilt your opponent sideways if executed properly. Outside of that, it does this to offensive Heatran:

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 300-354 (75.3 - 88.9%)
100+ Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%)

Or EQ if you want the insta-kill.

Just a couple other random rolls that helps its case

252+ SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 129-153 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
100+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 150-177 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
100+ Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 216-256 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh, and QD Pheromosa thinks it's got you by surprise... well..
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 165-195 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This right here though, is perhaps my favorite roll :
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 172 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 354-416 (88.9 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

The real kicker on this version of Buzzwole is that he overall really doesn't lose out on too much utility of other sets I commonly see. Moreso, it actually shores up the weaknesses of a bulk up or roost set. It still absolutely reks Rillaboom/Urshifu/Kartana/Pheromosa (the latter in an even better way), with the added benefit of actually beating several potential switch-ins. You can really swing the offensive momentum of a game in your favor by playing this thing at the right time. Not only that, but even once your opponent knows it still does its job properly and can still even win certain late-game situations it otherwise wouldn't.

Now, this thing is highly susceptible to being worn down and is still dying to a hurricane from anything in one hit, so be wary of that. You don't really want to be switching this *in* on a special attacker as it kind of defeats the purpose, so this either needs to be played in an extremely hyper offensive environment or in a team paired with a better overall special wall.

I have managed to ladder three different self-built teams to ~1700 on ladder with this mon being a significant x-factor in getting me there. I do not think that it's just the novelty of the set either, I think (especially if someone optimized the EVs) this thing is a legitimate threat that can put your opponent in a really bad spot if they are not prepared for it.
 
lol AV buzzwole. Seems like buzzwole has become the universal physical check now too, a big change from back when I started the buzzwole meta.

Also, cool that people have started using slowbro and blissey over chansey now. It's just better (even with eviolite) as I mentioned a year ago.

Just started playing some gen8, it seems that FS + Teleport slowking + Urshifu seems dangerously strong as a wall-breaking combo.
 
Last edited:
i have been thinking about using mega gallade in ou with teleport wish and close combat as stab and a move of choice but not really sure or it will work please help me
 

Zneon

schmovin
is a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
i have been thinking about using mega gallade in ou with teleport wish and close combat as stab and a move of choice but not really sure or it will work please help me
For the record, Mega Gallade isn’t allowed in gen 8 since megas are not available.

In the case you actually mean regular Gallade it isn’t going to use teleport + wish well as unlike Clefable, it lacks a good defensive typing to really use it properly. Psychic / fighting is pretty horrible defensively as it’s hit hard by so many things neutrally and doesn’t check anything important and CC as a standalone move gets walled by too many prevalent things and it cannot really afford that since neither is its bulk nor typing allows for any actual defensive utility outside of wishport.
 

ausma

imperfection is beautiful
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
OU Forum Leader
Hey all, I hope you're all having a fantastic weekend! I have a couple of discussion points for you guys that I would like to bring to the table; I'll start with one for now to keep things simple. My first discussion point revolves around Urshifu-SS.



I've been doing a lot of laddering and experimentation lately, particularly focusing a lot on the infamous Futureport user Slowbro, as well as its best abusers. We are all fairly familiar with how this operates, and it's driven a lot of Pokemon from being radar threats to potentially banworthy. For a while, I thought that the enabler--Futureport--was the problem, as there are a myriad of natural answers in the tier to Pokemon such as Pheromosa and Melmetal that can get overwhelmed with the additional pressure provided by Slowbro's incredible facilitation of the move. However, after extensive playing using this technique more thoroughly, I realized that the technique itself can be stuffed relatively easily if Slowbro faces too much pressure in of itself, which it easily can due to how valuable it is as both a wall and a pivot. Its typing, while fairly good for checking Cinderace and Melmetal, is not the best defensively due to a notable weakness to Volt-Turn, the nearly omnipresent use of Knock Off in the tier, and yielding a troublesome weakness to Urshifu-SS and Pheromosa's other STAB options. Against any good offensive team, Futureport can crumble if used recklessly, and for that reason I think it can be more readily checked despite how strong of a strategy it can be on Balanced Offense and Bulky Offense teams. However, I still do not believe such things as Pheromosa or Melmetal are problematic factors in of themselves when it comes to Futureport facilitation; though, Urshifu-SS is a problem in my eyes, and I'd like to explain why.

Urshifu-SS has always been a fairly polarizing Pokemon offensively, with one of the most spammable STABs in the game in Wicked Blow and a brutal STAB CC to back it. For that reason, it is a prime candidate for Futureport abuse, and I believe that the answers to Urshifu are much more limited than the myriad of checks that can handle Pheromosa and Melmetal. Urshifu's brutal STAB combination and damage output in tandem with hazard support and Future Sight leaves it so its only real switch-ins are Fairy-types. Of the top Fairy-types, the only viable, consistent answers come in the form of Clefable and Tapu Fini. While both compress quite a bit on a team, they can more readily crumble to Futureport support, and Wishport Clefable faces severe difficulty handling it due to Unseen Fist bypassing its only way to remain healthy. Tapu Fini, unfortunately, can be easily overwhelmed with a combination of Stealth Rock chip --> Wicked Blow --> Future Sight --> Wicked Blow, making it unreliable against the strategy (especially if Tapu Fini is pressured dealing with other threats like Melmetal or Garchomp and is already chipped). Utility Clefable can sometimes face this problem as well, though to a slightly lesser extent thanks to Magic Guard to mitigate hazard chip. Poison Jab variants are run sometimes as well, which can completely throttle Clefable and Tapu Fini if it opts for coverage over Sucker Punch priority. Although, I find myself more pressed to run U-turn + Sucker Punch, as Urshifu can always phenomenally pair with any good Fairy-type buster like rising star Nidoking, this still forces a very dangerous guessing game with revenge killers versus bulky Fairy-types to check Urshifu, and especially with Futureport, this can be really overwhelming to play against as guessing correctly can still be mitigated with something as simple as Future Sight to back its onslaught. I find myself nearly obligated to run a Fairy-type simply to check Urshifu to some degree of consistency, but even this isn't too consistent in execution as Futureport can completely throttle the switch-in anyway.

This simply just addresses its Choice Band variant. In fact, I find its LO Bulk Up sets to be extremely strong HO staples, able to pair phenomenally well with dual dance Magearna to lay out severe pressure against most of the defensive tier. Magearna can use Urshifu's few switch-ins as fairly good setup fodder since it is very good at forcing such switch-ins. Having the freedom to switch up moves after a Bulk Up boost makes it even more terrifying, with the 50/50s created via its last moveslot being even more polarizing and sometimes even game defining.

I'm curious to hear what people think about Urshifu-SS in the tier, and if people think it is a main suspect as to Futureport's strength at the moment. I personally think it is, and although I think it alone isn't broken, it takes far too great advantage of team support in my eyes to be a consistently healthy component to the tier, if it is one at all. Even if it can be checked with things like Rocky Helmet or residual damage, I think its sheer wallbreaking ability especially with Futureport to cleave through nearly all of its checks is too much and opens up offensive wincons far too easily to be conceivably healthy in my eyes.
 
Last edited:
Hey all, I hope you're all having a fantastic weekend! I have a couple of discussion points for you guys that I would like to bring to the table; I'll start with one for now to keep things simple. My first discussion point revolves around Urshifu-SS.



I've been doing a lot of laddering and experimentation lately, particularly focusing a lot on the infamous Futureport user Slowbro, as well as its best abusers. We are all fairly familiar with how this operates, and it's driven a lot of Pokemon from being radar threats to potentially banworthy. For a while, I thought that the enabler--Futureport--was the problem, as there are a myriad of natural answers in the tier to Pokemon such as Pheromosa and Melmetal that can get overwhelmed with the additional pressure provided by Slowbro's incredible facilitation of the move. However, after extensive playing using this technique more thoroughly, I realized that the technique itself can be stuffed relatively easily if Slowbro faces too much pressure in of itself, which it easily can due to how valuable it is as both a wall and a pivot. Its typing, while fairly good for checking Cinderace and Melmetal, is not the best defensively due to a notable weakness to Volt-Turn, the nearly omnipresent use of Knock Off in the tier, and yielding a troublesome weakness to Urshifu-SS and Pheromosa's other STAB options. Against any good offensive team, Futureport can crumble if used recklessly, and for that reason I think it can be more readily checked despite how strong of a strategy it can be on Balanced Offense and Bulky Offense teams. However, I still do not believe Pheromosa or Melmetal are problematic factors in of themselves; though, Urshifu-SS is a problem in my eyes, and I'd like to explain why.

Urshifu-SS has always been a fairly polarizing Pokemon offensively, with one of the most spammable STABs in the game in Wicked Blow and a brutal STAB CC to back it. For that reason, it is a prime candidate for Futureport abuse, and I believe that the answers to Urshifu are much more limited than the myriad of checks that can handle Pheromosa and Melmetal. Urshifu's brutal STAB combination leaves it so its only real switch-ins are Fairy-types. Of the top Fairy-types, the only viable, consistent answers come in the form of Clefable and Tapu Fini. While both compress quite a bit on a team, they can more readily crumble to Futureport support, and Wishport Clefable faces severe difficulty handling it due to Unseen Fist bypassing its only way to remain healthy. Tapu Fini, unfortunately, can be easily overwhelmed with a combination of Stealth Rock chip --> Wicked Blow --> Future Sight --> Wicked Blow, making it unreliable against the strategy (especially if Tapu Fini is pressured dealing with other threats like Melmetal or Garchomp and is already chipped). Poison Jab variants are run sometimes as well, which can completely throttle Clefable and Tapu Fini if it opts for coverage over Sucker Punch priority. Although, I find myself more pressed to run U-turn + Sucker Punch, as Urshifu can always phenomenally pair with any good Fairy-type buster like rising star Nidoking, this still forces a very dangerous guessing game with revenge killers versus bulky Fairy-types to check Urshifu, and especially with Futureport, this can be really overwhelming to play against as guessing correctly can still be mitigated with something as simple as Future Sight to back its onslaught.

This simply just addresses its Choice Band variant. In fact, I find its LO sets to be extremely strong HO staples, able to pair phenomenally well with dual dance Magearna to lay out severe pressure against most of the defensive tier. Magearna can use Urshifu's few switch-ins as fairly good setup fodder since it is very good at forcing such switch-ins. Having the freedom to switch up moves after a Bulk Up boost makes it even more terrifying, with the 50/50s created via its last moveslot being even more polarizing and sometimes even game defining.

I'm curious to hear what people think about Urshifu-SS in the tier, and if people think it is a main suspect as to Futureport's strength at the moment. I personally think it is, and although I think it alone isn't broken, it takes far too great advantage of team support in my eyes to be a consistently healthy component to the tier, if it is one at all.
I am a big fan of Urshifu SS in the tier. I actually enjoy how much it messes up BO/Stall while doing less against offense. I have spammed that mag Urshifu futureport sample team to 1800. I like the priority, I like that it ignores intimidate. I have a hard time being convinced it’s too oppressive when Mandi, Clef and Pex are all staples and were staples before Urshifu came out says to me it’s not a problem. There’s ungodly amounts of contact punishment in this tier and if you forgo pads you’re likely going to be chipped or heavily crippled. The fact that these checks can be broken down with futureport is fine to me, I think people do need to start playing more aggressively against futureport and punish the Slowbro/Slowking with some aggro doubles. We have stuff like Spectrier in the tier, it’s not brain surgery to mess up those fat pieces of shit, people play them so brainlessly. The fact people can’t just do their usual regenerator loops when a future sight is live is a good thing in my eyes. so much of Gen 6 and 7 is go into your fat thing or regenerator to scout the breaker then switch again or heal, it’s really refreshing to see something that requires the other player to take some initiative.
 
Last edited:

Perish Song

World's Smallest Violin
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Urshifu is a ridiculous Pokemon with an excellent STAB combination and an ability that prevents scouting. Without FuturePort, it will still benefit from teammates with access to moves like Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic, Knock Off, and Thunder Wave and other teammates that can pivot for it. This is an effect of new toy syndrome, aka everyone testing newly introduced Pokemon, and the old ones are forgotten just like how TTar and Aegislash fell to UU for a short time. It surely gained new checks in Tapu Fini and Kanto Birds, but it still punches a great amount of Pokemon in the tier.

FuturePort is a mechanic that needs to be looked upon individually, as this combination isn't the sole factor that enables Urshifu. Many other offensive threats such as Nidoking, Melmetal, Pheromosa, and Cinderace benefit greatly from the FuturePort, as it enables a ridiculous offensive presence that doesn't really have a consistent defensive counterplay and often forces unhealthy '50-'50s. I don't know how this will be handled but Future Sight was only seen as a niche strategy prior to Teleport and with the introduction of Teleport it is the standard set of certain Pokemon, speaks for itself how much of an impact it made in the metagame.
 
I think that IF Futureport is deemed broken by suspect, it should be a prime candidate for a complex ban similar to Aldaron's Proposal. I know people will give me a long slippery slope rebuttals and suddenly care about shitty 0 use futureport potential users and how rain was such a critical part of the bw meta compared to futureport is in gen 8 but like, banning slowking and slowbro is more unacceptable in my eyes, it’s just bonkers insane to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I think that IF Futureport is deemed broken by suspect, it should be a prime candidate for a complex ban similar to Aldaron's Proposal. I know people will give me a long slippery slope rebuttals and suddenly care about shitty 0 use futureport potential users and how rain was such a critical part of the bw meta compared to futureport is in gen 8 but like, banning slowking and slowbro is more unacceptable in my eyes, it’s just bonkers insane to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There have been a number of posts in this thread recently about how we don't tier based on whether we prefer one metagame to another, but rather based on whether the subject at hand is broken or not. If the Slowtwins are oppressive, we ban them, and if that makes Cinderace or whatever broken, we ban that too.

Besides, I haven't seen a single credible argument that Futureport is broken on anything that is not a Slowtwin. It's extremely exploitable. Does anybody even want to try to make that argument?

Edit: also if anybody wants to say that there's no collateral damage in a complex Futureport ban because there are no viable lower-tier users, I will fight them. There are no broken users, and it's much more exploitable, but there are viable lower-tier Futureport mons.
 
Last edited:
FuturePort is a mechanic that needs to be looked upon individually, as this combination isn't the sole factor that enables Urshifu. Many other offensive threats such as Nidoking, Melmetal, Pheromosa, and Cinderace benefit greatly from the FuturePort, as it enables a ridiculous offensive presence that doesn't really have a consistent defensive counterplay and often forces unhealthy '50-'50s. I don't know how this will be handled but Future Sight was only seen as a niche strategy prior to Teleport and with the introduction of Teleport it is the standard set of certain Pokemon, speaks for itself how much of an impact it made in the metagame.
I don't really see why we are looking at the mechanic itself instead of the pokemon that use them because there are only two that can use FuturePort viably, the slow twins. There are 11 other fully evolved pokemon with the combination of wish + teleport and I don't think any of them are broken with it (unless someone proves me wrong) . It is only due to the slow twins great bulk + regenerator that makes them a problem, which gives them enough chances and the longevity to get a future sight up and teleport to a wall breaker. The slow twins are the alleged problem, not futureport itself and we should probably suspect atleast slowbro first rather than ban the strategy itself. I don't even believe that FuturePort is broken but focus should be on the pokemon that use this strategy, not the strategy itself.
 
I am a big fan of Urshifu SS in the tier. I actually enjoy how much it messes up BO/Stall while doing less against offense. I have spammed that mag Urshifu futureport sample team to 1800. I like the priority, I like that it ignores intimidate. I have a hard time being convinced it’s too oppressive when Mandi, Clef and Pex are all staples and were staples before Urshifu came out says to me it’s not a problem. There’s ungodly amounts of contact punishment in this tier and if you forgo pads you’re likely going to be chipped or heavily crippled. The fact that these checks can be broken down with futureport is fine to me, I think people do need to start playing more aggressively against futureport and punish the Slowbro/Slowking with some aggro doubles. We have stuff like Spectrier in the tier, it’s not brain surgery to mess up those fat pieces of shit, people play them so brainlessly. The fact people can’t just do their usual regenerator loops when a future sight is live is a good thing in my eyes. so much of Gen 6 and 7 is go into your fat thing or regenerator to scout the breaker then switch again or heal, it’s really refreshing to see something that requires the other player to take some initiative.
Can you send me the sample team you're talking about?
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Complex bans aren't happening unless something drastic changes for roughly the same reasoning I alluded to here. It's not like any complex ban would be a rational solution here regardless.

Personally, I feel like Urshifu/Future Sight can be an issue, but Spectrier and Pheromosa may be more troublesome. I plan on posting in more detail on them now, but if you guys want to discuss Urshifu/Future Sight, do yourself and everyone reading a favor and don't bother discussing complex bans as it's just a waste everyone's time as it currently stands. Even if the council was for them, this goes far beyond the council and more towards Smogon tiering policy as a whole, which has no business being in this thread regardless.
 
Complex bans aren't happening unless something drastic changes for roughly the same reasoning I alluded to here. It's not like any complex ban would be a rational solution here regardless.

Personally, I feel like Urshifu/Future Sight can be an issue, but Spectrier and Pheromosa may be more troublesome. I plan on posting in more detail on them now, but if you guys want to discuss Urshifu/Future Sight, do yourself and everyone reading a favor and don't bother discussing complex bans as it's just a waste everyone's time as it currently stands. Even if the council was for them, this goes far beyond the council and more towards Smogon tiering policy as a whole, which has no business being in this thread regardless.
Can you touch on what has changed with tiering policy compared to BW? I realize my position is exceptionally unpopular and I don’t really care how this particular issue plays out but I think it would be good to spell out what if anything has changed besides who’s in charge
 
Hate to be that one guy but I seriously doubt that the council is considering complex bans. The topic seems to be urshifu vs slowtwins, so the question we all need to be answering is if urshifu is gone will futureport still be a problem or the slowtwins are the problematic aspect of it
futureport isnt even a problem. The issue is way overblown and Futureport is being blamed for the constraint individual offensive mons are putting on the tier. Also if your team is weak to Futureport (it can happen unintentionally) check to see you're not weak to Specs Latios (even Latios in general) or Tapu Lele cause chances are you might be just weaker to the psychic archetype. I've played games where Futureport isn't present and it's the powerful mons in question that become the issue I need to handle in game or in the builder. Do nothing fat teams I feel like are the ones that seem to have the most issue with it from discussions I see from people playing stall, games I've used it and play against, or that tend to play it safe with some pex, blissey, zap, clef try to stall my opp out fatty builds. I also feel like people dont like FuturePort cause the move Teleport is a bit brainless to use and punishes passive play so people cant stay in their comfort zone, which is understandable but again misses the point of the debatable unbalanced receivers. I'd like to see some replays that are current dlc2 where slowbro is really breaking the meta and its not Urshifu coming in throwing out free Wicked Blows. I tend to use bro/king for their defensive merits as opposed to future sight use. I think that's what they're actually good for and Future Sight isnt as free of a move as it's made out to be when you might need to click Teleport to get out of the incoming insert breaker that doesnt care about bro. Maybe the complaint is a symptom of too many things to juggle at once but it's such a low priority thing to me leaving me scratching my head as what the uproar is about for this element specifically.
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Can you touch on what has changed with tiering policy compared to BW? I realize my position is exceptionally unpopular and I don’t really care how this particular issue plays out but I think it would be good to spell out what if anything has changed besides who’s in charge
I would appreciate if this was done privately as I just went out of my way to say this discussion was off topic here and this really is not even my topic to discuss as an OU Councilmen only as opposed to someone in charge of Smogon policy, but for the sake of clarity and to end this, sure.

The complex ban done in generation 5 to ban the combination of Drizzle + Swift Swim, also known as Aldaron's Proposal, was seen as a historic outlier, was only used as a poor knee-jerk response to a unique solution that involved defacing an entire tier otherwise, and any precedence it may have set was clearly removed when Smogon's track record not only distanced itself from a similar pattern of decisions, but also Old Generation Council's BW Council banned Sand Rush and Chlorophyll through votes instead of the same combination. I cannot go back to around when I started and explain what went through the minds of people making decisions ten years ago, but I can say that decisions made since then all clearly convey that complex bans are not in the cards for Smogon. If you have an issue with that, then this is not the place to express that issue, but rather in Policy Review / to tiering admins.
 
You hate Toxapex and want to laugh at your opponent at the same time?

Toxapex Killer
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 Def / 148 SpA / 40 SpD / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Mean Look
- Draining Kiss
- Taunt

I forgot why I put the SpA / Spd EV exactly like that, but CM Draining Kiss + Bold with no HP ensures maximum tanking and healing with Draining Kiss after you dunked Toxapex and setup the maximum +6 Calm Minds.

Vs. Pex you Mean Look and setup Taunt and Calm Minds. Just after one calm mind, your Leftovers already deal with Scald:
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 40 SpD Tapu Fini: 13-16 (4.6 - 5.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

In a pinch, you can do the following aswell:

+1 148 SpA Tapu Fini Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 54-65 (17.7 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO (8.8 - 10.3% recovered)

Therefore:
  • You outheal Scald Burns (don't forget Misty Terrain AND Taunt blocking Scald/Toxic!!)
  • You can't be hazed thanks to Taunt
  • Pex can't switch out thanks to Mean Look (that's the point).
  • I don't think I have to explain why removing Toxapex is amazing, do I?




Also if needed, you even beat Blissey after setting up on Toxapex thanks to the massive Draining HP recovery and Taunt.

+6 148 SpA Tapu Fini Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 184-217 (25.7 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(49.1 - 58% recovered)
 

Zneon

schmovin
is a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator


I do agree that Urshifu-S and Urshifu / Future Sight is pretty problematic especially considering that unlike Pheromosa and Melmetal, consistent counterplay to Urshifu really only limits to just Fairy-types, best ones being Clefable and Tapu Fini. However I also want to also bring up Spectrier as a discussion point too since its been a while since my last post on it while the metagame was still adjusting to the KyuB/Zyg ban and I find it to be the most problematic Pokemon in the tier right now and I feel that it warrants some serious discussion about its impact and place in the tier just like with Urshifu.

So you guys remember what I said about Spectrier before and how I was on the fence on it, well I pretty much made my mind up and I feel its a very limiting and unhealthy Pokemon for the metagame and I want to go over exactly why. So Spectrier is a pretty simple Pokemon, its movepool is very linear and its special attack and Speed are all excellent, as well as Grim Neigh, however it cannot really seem to do anything with just having Shadow Ball as an attacking move. Well the thing is, Ghost-type is one of the most offensively threatening STABs in the game and without Pursuit, Spectrier can just fire them off with pretty much no drawback, and that very Ghost-type STAB is exactly the reason why I feel Spectrier isn't as linear as it looks on paper, and the reason is that its really the only move that its really required on Spectrier.

With that, there are a lot of options you can do with Spectrier because its so threatening offensively already with just its ability, stats and STAB alone that it can really just mix and match what it wants to bypass its checks and counters. Counterplay speaking, I've said in my last post that there are a lack of Pokemon that can deal with Spectrier both offensively and defensively. Offensively, it really depends on its set, as Spectrier is one of the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier, making the only Pokemon faster than it or speed tie with it are Tapu Koko, opposing Spectrier, Dragapult, Pheromosa, and Regieleki. The latter 3 are outsped by Choice Scarf Spectrier, cannot stomach a Shadow Ball especially after rocks and if there isn't a backup answer to Spectrier it can pretty easily sweep after just 1 SpAtk boost from Grim Neigh. Meanwhile Choice Specs can just blow past a lot of stuff including Heatran and Protect Melmetal since Specs Shadow Ball has almost no switch ins. So offensively the best way to deal with it is prority from stuff like Urshifu and Rillaboom, both need to be brought in safely to be good answers to Spectrier but those can lose to Sub + NP. This wouldn't be a problem if Spectrier was a linear Pokemon with a one-dimensional playstyle, but sadly it isn't.

Stuff like Pheromosa and Dragapult beat Specs, but they lose to Scarf, SpDef Heatran and Tapu Fini can take a Scarf Shadow Ball and force it out however they cannot take a Specs Shadow Ball especially after rocks. Finally we have Sub + NP. Now the best answers to Spectrier are Blissey, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz and Zarude defensively. Blissey can wall choiced Spectrier forever and use it for momentum with Teleport, however Sub + NP can take advantage of it unless its running Shadow Ball or has an answer like Infiltrator Jolly Dragapult, Shadow Ball Blissey and Jolly Dragapult especially have become very needed options just to avoid Spectrier of having the chance of sweeping. Mandibuzz is also a great check to all sets, however if its SubDisable Spectrier, even fucking Mandibuzz has a chance of losing against Spectrier. Tyranitar has started to become exceedingly common for its special sponging abilities and also its ability to be a sand setter that checks Spectrier, this is probably the best one on this list because its a great Pokemon in its own right and one of the best counters to it, however its started to run Rest, which speaks volumes to the impact Spectrier has started to have on the tier. Lastly we have Zarude, if we are talking about answers to all sets overall then this is probably the best answer to Spectrier we have, however in terms of viability and splashability I find it to be worse than all the other Pokemon I've listed.

Get the problem? Spectrier is capable of bypassing all of these Pokemon and this is really depending on what set it is running, and its pretty hard to tell given the fact that Shadow Ball is really the only move really is required to use, from there the item and moves can really be whatever the Spectrier user really wants, this is pretty similar to Zygarde just much less broken, but it still has a pretty negative impact on the metagame at large.

Well that's all. Let me know your guys thoughts on Spectrier! I feel this post has pretty bad timing considering there is a big Urshifu discussion point, however I feel Spectrier warrants a lot of discussion too since I feel its impact on the tier and healthiness also needs a lot of introspection. I hope you guys enjoyed!
 
Last edited:
Honestly IMO, you could replace the words "FuturePort" with Spikes pre-Heavy-Duty Boots. All that matters is the switch-in is taking extra chip as it goes to take the hit which prevents it checking what it's meant to. It's a different means of accomplishing the same result.

What's the real issue here is the breakers themselves, because it doesn't matter whether Urshifu-S is backed by FuturePort or Spikes and Rocks, either way your Tapu Fini is no longer a check and you're looking at a risky switch or a sac.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 128-151 (37.3 - 44%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

We are in a world where Aegislash is UU. A reminder that Aegi 2HKOs pretty much the entire game with just CC/Shadow/Flash(or Iron Head) and has 3 checks or something which can all lose to whatever it's last move is or it can even fit priority. The thought of a Pokemon that good (even ignoring the defensive utility it beings) being neglected is honestly shocking to me. And let's not even go into Kyurem and Terrakion being RU, Blaziken seriously underperforming in the current metagame and Nasty Plot Expanding Force Zam and the still nutty Lele both being UU.

But when I look at the standards that are being set by OU's current crop of breakers, that all actually makes a crazy amount of sense. Why does no-one use Aegislash? It's basically Urshifu that can't pivot and has a weak speed tier. "Who are Blaziken and Hawlucha, and why do they need help to beat their checks?"-Spectrier. Let's not even get into Melmetal making sturdy physical Steel resists mandatory, Magearna's utterly absurd versatility, and Cinderace just U-turning on everything, because those are unironically balanced atm.

Oh and Pheromosa. Just try and name a consistent check to that thing. It's like Cinderace if Cinderace could fire off Ice moves, go fully physical or special, wasn't mandated Boots, snowballed off surprise coverage kills and was faster than Zeraora. Are you for real. Like I get each set has checks and U-turn means less coverage, but there's nothing that outspeeds it other than absurd Choice Scarfers and it can just U-turn to safety every time the opponent doesn't have priority or one of the aforementioned absurd scarfers. And it has the statline and coverage to abuse weakened checks. I'm not even taking into account the QD set here because that's another essay in of itself. That's like if Urshifu could Dragon Dance on the switch. You do lose a lot of the value offered by U-turn (again, similar to Urshifu) but the moment it gets a kill the game is already over.

So all that considered, somehow Slowbro is the problem here? I think not...
 
I do think that while futureport is good to talk about, considering banning either part of it (with no complex bans ofc) when we still have pheromosa and spectrier around is weird, to say the least. Not even talking in a "they should have been banned already" sense, but in the fact they seem to be way more important in the pyramid of "what could be a problem for ou" than teleport, future sight, the slowtwins etc.

I find spectrier the bigger problem right now, even more than urshifu and pheromosa, with the sub sets being probably the ones I find the worse overall. Not only by having to predict if the horse is running a choice item or sub, but also what its going to do behind that sub. Zneon laid down my thoughts pretty well already, so I don't want to repeat it all again. I don't know if i find urshifu and phero balanced, but I don't think they're as much of an issue as the horse rn.
 
Hey all, I hope you're all having a fantastic weekend! I have a couple of discussion points for you guys that I would like to bring to the table; I'll start with one for now to keep things simple. My first discussion point revolves around Urshifu-SS.



I've been doing a lot of laddering and experimentation lately, particularly focusing a lot on the infamous Futureport user Slowbro, as well as its best abusers. We are all fairly familiar with how this operates, and it's driven a lot of Pokemon from being radar threats to potentially banworthy. For a while, I thought that the enabler--Futureport--was the problem, as there are a myriad of natural answers in the tier to Pokemon such as Pheromosa and Melmetal that can get overwhelmed with the additional pressure provided by Slowbro's incredible facilitation of the move. However, after extensive playing using this technique more thoroughly, I realized that the technique itself can be stuffed relatively easily if Slowbro faces too much pressure in of itself, which it easily can due to how valuable it is as both a wall and a pivot. Its typing, while fairly good for checking Cinderace and Melmetal, is not the best defensively due to a notable weakness to Volt-Turn, the nearly omnipresent use of Knock Off in the tier, and yielding a troublesome weakness to Urshifu-SS and Pheromosa's other STAB options. Against any good offensive team, Futureport can crumble if used recklessly, and for that reason I think it can be more readily checked despite how strong of a strategy it can be on Balanced Offense and Bulky Offense teams. However, I still do not believe such things as Pheromosa or Melmetal are problematic factors in of themselves when it comes to Futureport facilitation; though, Urshifu-SS is a problem in my eyes, and I'd like to explain why.

Urshifu-SS has always been a fairly polarizing Pokemon offensively, with one of the most spammable STABs in the game in Wicked Blow and a brutal STAB CC to back it. For that reason, it is a prime candidate for Futureport abuse, and I believe that the answers to Urshifu are much more limited than the myriad of checks that can handle Pheromosa and Melmetal. Urshifu's brutal STAB combination and damage output in tandem with hazard support and Future Sight leaves it so its only real switch-ins are Fairy-types. Of the top Fairy-types, the only viable, consistent answers come in the form of Clefable and Tapu Fini. While both compress quite a bit on a team, they can more readily crumble to Futureport support, and Wishport Clefable faces severe difficulty handling it due to Unseen Fist bypassing its only way to remain healthy. Tapu Fini, unfortunately, can be easily overwhelmed with a combination of Stealth Rock chip --> Wicked Blow --> Future Sight --> Wicked Blow, making it unreliable against the strategy (especially if Tapu Fini is pressured dealing with other threats like Melmetal or Garchomp and is already chipped). Utility Clefable can sometimes face this problem as well, though to a slightly lesser extent thanks to Magic Guard to mitigate hazard chip. Poison Jab variants are run sometimes as well, which can completely throttle Clefable and Tapu Fini if it opts for coverage over Sucker Punch priority. Although, I find myself more pressed to run U-turn + Sucker Punch, as Urshifu can always phenomenally pair with any good Fairy-type buster like rising star Nidoking, this still forces a very dangerous guessing game with revenge killers versus bulky Fairy-types to check Urshifu, and especially with Futureport, this can be really overwhelming to play against as guessing correctly can still be mitigated with something as simple as Future Sight to back its onslaught. I find myself nearly obligated to run a Fairy-type simply to check Urshifu to some degree of consistency, but even this isn't too consistent in execution as Futureport can completely throttle the switch-in anyway.

This simply just addresses its Choice Band variant. In fact, I find its LO Bulk Up sets to be extremely strong HO staples, able to pair phenomenally well with dual dance Magearna to lay out severe pressure against most of the defensive tier. Magearna can use Urshifu's few switch-ins as fairly good setup fodder since it is very good at forcing such switch-ins. Having the freedom to switch up moves after a Bulk Up boost makes it even more terrifying, with the 50/50s created via its last moveslot being even more polarizing and sometimes even game defining.

I'm curious to hear what people think about Urshifu-SS in the tier, and if people think it is a main suspect as to Futureport's strength at the moment. I personally think it is, and although I think it alone isn't broken, it takes far too great advantage of team support in my eyes to be a consistently healthy component to the tier, if it is one at all. Even if it can be checked with things like Rocky Helmet or residual damage, I think its sheer wallbreaking ability especially with Futureport to cleave through nearly all of its checks is too much and opens up offensive wincons far too easily to be conceivably healthy in my eyes.
I think the thing that makes urshifu so problematic is that it is able to check the things that resist future sight better than any other futureport abuser. No type resists all 3 of dark fighting and psychic stabs. Pokemon that would be switched in to take a hit from future sight, like dark types or fat special walls such as blissey, just don't work against shifu. You could use a fairy type, but shifu can counter with iron head or poison jab. The only thing that can consistently check both shifu and future sight is mandibuzz, but mandi can't do much to hit it back.
 
Honestly IMO, you could replace the words "FuturePort" with Spikes pre-Heavy-Duty Boots. All that matters is the switch-in is taking extra chip as it goes to take the hit which prevents it checking what it's meant to. It's a different means of accomplishing the same result.

What's the real issue here is the breakers themselves, because it doesn't matter whether Urshifu-S is backed by FuturePort or Spikes and Rocks, either way your Tapu Fini is no longer a check and you're looking at a risky switch or a sac.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 128-151 (37.3 - 44%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
This is a bad take. First of all, hazards and their setters all have ample counterplay. Taunt, Magic Bounce, Rapid Spin, Defog, and of course, the classic, preventing hazards from going up. Future Sight is not the same. The main abusers in OU, are so bulky that it difficult to prevent them from getting of a FS. It can't be taunted, and wearing them down isn't an option due to Regenerator + Slack Off. So counterplay is extremely limited. You have to play perfectly in order to prevent Future Sight—if Slowbro gets in once for free, which isn't that hard, it's getting off a Future Sight.

Furthermore, Spikes and Rocks aren't attacks. They do a fixed amount of damage, which is important, because Future Sight is an attack. It's 120 Base Power, which is strong, and importantly, it's Psychic type. So Slowbro etc. gain STAB on it, and it hits things Supereffectively.
Even with multiple layers of Rocks and Spikes, there are still switchins to Urshifu-SS:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Buzzwole on a critical hit: 96-113 (23 - 27%) -- 46.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery.
However, with Future Sight: 0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 428-506 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The difference is clear: what is potentially the only true counter to Urshifu in the tier completely folds when faced with Future Sight. So no, it is not the same as hazards. It is literally being hit with 2 attacks in the same turn. In Doubles, everything runs Protect because being hit with two attacks hurts. However, Protect isn't good counterplay, because Future Sight breaks protection, AND you have to waste a valuable move slot. Against abusers other than Urshifu, you could bring something like Protect Mandibuzz, which you can probably see is awful.

There are definitely broken mons in OU right now, but this is not it.
 

Gomi

g9 waiting room
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
SPECTRIER HATE?
Time for me to buckle down and make a post on my least favorite Pokémon in the current metagame by a mile
1606608858314.png

I hate this pokemon. I despise building for this Pokémon. I have tried several times to write well composed posts on how much I dislike this pokemon, but I cannot see this thing as anything but an extremely awful to build for, awkward to revenge kill, versatile monstrosity. Pheromosa is restrictive, yes, but Mosa does not make you give up slots or movesets on your team soley to beat it, while in the process making you worse vs. the metagame at large. THIS DOES, this absolutely does. Here's a few obvious examples
:ss/mandibuzz:
Has to give up U-turn or Foul Play for Knock off and needs toxic to not get overwhelmed by Hex+Nasty Plot before Spectrier essentially forces a trade at best, not to mention Taunt or Disable variations of spect.
:ss/blissey:
Running shadow ball and losing out on status, TP, or Rocks is so detrimental to role compression on Stall and Bliss' insane momentum on Balance. Sball bliss straight up loses to boosters with recovery as well, due to its lack of para to cheese or Toxic to whittle the target down. again, this isn't even bringing up Taunt/Disable variants.
1606609241656.png

I would never run this if not for Spectrier.

Now this is all swell, but being restrictive defensively is nothing new. At least Spectrier is relatively easy to revenge! right? oh right it gets Will-O-Wisp to cripple every physical attacker slower than it and is faster than all but like 3 pokemon with no choice item while having the possibility of Disable, Sub, and Taunt all looming over you as you try to take it out. great. And Mosa can't actually threaten Spectrier without Throat Chop so that might as well be 2.5 pokemon for how common that move is.

So its extremely varied, capable of bypassing its counterplay with set variation, and difficult to actually pin down with offensive counterplay. That's a lot of amazing traits already, surely it can't get any better! Well that's where you're wrong because the demon who designed this Pokémon decided that it needed to be able to SNOWBALL with a special moxie clone, meaning sacking to this monstrosity causes its own issues as that chipped Mandi it did 40% to at +2 now dies outright because you had to sack to bring it in. I'm not even done listing this mon's crazy number of upsides, because its absolutely incredible at forcing switches due to its combination of blistering speed, crippling Will o Wisps, threat of snowballing, amazing resists and immunities, and ability to surprise with Choiced sets if it hasn't taken prior damage.

So what are the downsides to this monstrosity? Well, there are a few. It needs some bulk investment to beat Mandibuzz (about 72-76 physdef I can't remember exactly), it can be awkward to fit all the moves it wants because while every set with Wisp will put in work no matter what, there are some that do more than others in certain MUs (cm for Sball bliss, taunt+sub for really locking down Mandi Balances, etc.), and sometimes it just lacks the raw power to force KOs without specs, especially if you opt for a hex variant. But honestly, all of this is minor compared to the immense strain it puts onto you as a Builder and you in battle. Certain playstyles that struggle to fit solid Ghost resists just fold outright without very good play (Rain most notably), and building without a Dark or Bliss pretty much guarantees you're gonna be matchup fishing given how hard Spectrier will turn you into dust without one.

Playing and building around this thing is a nightmare, as far as im concerned this is the most bannable Pokémon around. If you disagree that's cool but I truly cannot see this Pokémon as anything but unhealthy for a metagame that's already struggling to handle crazy offensive threats like Urshi, Magearna, and Mosa. I haven't even gotten into how pairings like Spectrier+Kartana are absolutely unmanageable because of how adept Spectrier is at forcing pressure onto your counterplay for other mons and just turning them into dust if they lack the proper move to deal with you or your offensive partner, but I don't feel like writing any more about how much I dislike this mon.
wall of text weeeeee
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 7)

Top