Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I'm not claiming one way or another, but just for the sake of conversation...

I wonder if one day trapping moves will be banned or otherwise problematic. For a very long time Arena Trap and even Shadow Tag were tolerated and banned on a case by case basis. In Dugtrio's case it took 10+ years to finally be banned from 4th and 5th gens. If gen 9 was to be released tomorrow it wouldn't surprise me to see those trapping abilities quick banned, or otherwise the first things on the chopping block. Yet that kind of thinking about Dugtrio would be crazy talk in 2008. Dugtrio and Arena Trap were once considered a fair tactic and were seen as part of the meta.

Yet now we still have Pokemon like Toxapex or Urshifu-Water which can use trapping moves to prevent switching to either kill their counter via some odd anti-set or use the trap effect to deny a double switch. Block has been around since gen 3 and Grip Claw since 4 so these aren't exactly new strategies, but they have certainly seen much more use in recent years. No longer a joke move, trapping moves have seen serious play.

Again I'm not saying they're broken by any means but it seems like trapping moves are an attribute to the meta that has been slowly increasing in viability. I wonder if, just like Dugtrio, the player base will one day decide they are uncompetitive and best to be banished.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I'm not claiming one way or another, but just for the sake of conversation...

I wonder if one day trapping moves will be banned or otherwise problematic. For a very long time Arena Trap and even Shadow Tag were tolerated and banned on a case by case basis. In Dugtrio's case it took 10+ years to finally be banned from 4th and 5th gens. If gen 9 was to be released tomorrow it wouldn't surprise me to see those trapping abilities quick banned, or otherwise the first things on the chopping block. Yet that kind of thinking about Dugtrio would be crazy talk in 2008. Dugtrio and Arena Trap were once considered a fair tactic and were seen as part of the meta.

Yet now we still have Pokemon like Toxapex or Urshifu-Water which can use trapping moves to prevent switching to either kill their counter via some odd anti-set or use the trap effect to deny a double switch. Block has been around since gen 3 and Grip Claw since 4 so these aren't exactly new strategies, but they have certainly seen much more use in recent years. No longer a joke move, trapping moves have seen serious play.

Again I'm not saying they're broken by any means but it seems like trapping moves are an attribute to the meta that has been slowly increasing in viability. I wonder if, just like Dugtrio, the player base will one day decide they are uncompetitive and best to be banished.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The reason why, in my opinion, trapping moves are not as broken as abilities is that trapping moves have drawbacks, like low power, accuracy, and/or pp, alongside being temporary. Trapping Abilities are broken simply because they're instantaneous upon switching in, and forces you to run and Flying-type/Levitator or a Ghost-type, which is very restrictive.

Block exists, tho, but, there's a reason it's not "broken", and no one is suicidal enough to use Block on something that is not a defensive mon. Magnet Pull is the other trapping ability, but unlike Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, it's not OP as it only traps opposing Steel-types, and that's one reason why Magnezone is so good, but definitely not broken compared to Dugtrio or Gothitelle, that are completely unviable without their abilities.
I still remember when everyone started using Corvi with Shed Shell or U-Turn just for Magne, lol.
 
Future Sight in combination with a strong fighting type pokemon hits every type for at least neutral damage except psychic. Which is why i think Urshifu and Pheromosa are so good at acting as the fighting type in the combo, since their secondary stab deals super effective damage to psychic types. I think Urshifu and Pheromosa should definitely be looked at first, then see how the meta progresses against futureport slowtwins.
 
Future Sight in combination with a strong fighting type pokemon hits every type for at least neutral damage except psychic. Which is why i think Urshifu and Pheromosa are so good at acting as the fighting type in the combo, since their secondary stab deals super effective damage to psychic types. I think Urshifu and Pheromosa should definitely be looked at first, then see how the meta progresses against futureport slowtwins.
Essentially this. Urshifu was already a pretty controversial aspect to the metagame long befure FuturePort took off (pre-CT) and Pheromosa was doing its own controversial things before FuturePort's discovery, as well, even though the previous quick banned CT-meta Pokemon took up more of the spotlight. I also agree with the idea of looking into the prime abusers of FuturePort first before looking into the Slowtwins to see if the combination of FuturePort + abuser as an idea is still deemed too much if/when Urshifu and Pheromosa are banned beforehand.
 
Obstagoon can run taunt, which forces sub disable spec into a pretty unfavorable 50/50. Or you can run snarl, which not only goes through sub but weakens special attack and let's goon 1v1 literally every spec set
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Sorry if I'm missing something, but why are people so afraid of Obstagoon being Disabled by Spectrier that they feel like they need to run suboptimal sets? Wouldn't the standard Knock Off/Facade/Close Combat/Switcheroo set with a Flame Orb beat the Substitute/Disable/Nasty Plot or Calm Mind/Shadow Ball Spectrier set? Spectrier can only Disable the Obstagoon Knock Off if Obstagoon has already used Knock Off to break its sub, so you just click Switcheroo after breaking the sub. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think it's common for a Substitute + Disable Spectrier to have any attacking move other than Shadow Ball, so it wouldn't be able to touch Obstagoon and would eventually die to the Flame Orb burn, while Obstagoon would stay healthy with the Leftovers. Clicking Switcheroo after breaking the sub is usually a nice move in case they switch out anyway.
 
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Sorry if I'm missing something, but why are people so afraid of Obstagoon being Disabled by Spectrier that they feel like they need to run suboptimal sets? Wouldn't the standard Knock Off/Facade/Close Combat/Switcheroo set with a Flame Orb beat the Substitute/Disable/Nasty Plot or Calm Mind/Shadow Ball Spectrier set? Spectrier can only Disable the Obstagoon Knock Off if Obstagoon has already used Knock Off to break its sub, so you just click Switcheroo after breaking the sub. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think it's common for a Substitute + Disable Spectrier to have any attacking move other than Shadow Ball, so it wouldn't be able to touch Obstagoon and would eventually die to the Flame Orb burn, while Obstagoon would stay healthy with the Leftovers. Clicking Switcheroo after breaking the sub is usually a nice move in case they switch out anyway.
I think the preferred move for disable spectrier is actually dark pulse, since the intention behind the set is to nail blissey, but otherwise your logic is pretty sound.
The most "normal" exchange between obstagoon and spectrier I can think of is:
1st turn: spectrier subs up, obstagoon breaks it with knock off.
2nd turn: spectrier disables knock, obstagoon tricks it a flame orb.
at the end of this you have a spectrier that subbed up for basically no gain, and is burned. It also needs to sub again to sweep which means it will probably be at around 40% without taking any hits. It can probably win the 1v1 vs obstagoon at the cost of crippling itself beyond help if it packs dark pulse. If it is running a ghost move it's pretty much done for.
But I think people underestimate how bad replacing leftovers with a burn is on pokemon that depend on subs. With lefties, you can invest into your subs, and get a lot of the health back, without them and while burned, every broken sub hurts you a lot and sets you on a ridicoulously fast timer, especially combined with entry hazards. Think of this: we are analyzing what happens in the two turns in both scenarios:
1. scenario: you have lefties, no burn. on the first turn you sub, and the lefties heal you, on the second turn you do whatever you were gonna do behind the sub and get lefty heals again. in this case, a sub cost you 13% health.
2. scenario: you have burn, no lefties. on the first turn you sub, and the burn damages you, on the second turn you do whatever you were gonna do behind the sub and get burn damage again. in this case, a sub cost you 37% health. So basically you can do this twice before dying.
 
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Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
I think the preferred move for disable spectrier is actually dark pulse, since the intention behind the set is to nail blissey, but otherwise your logic is pretty sound.
The most "normal" exchange between obstagoon and spectrier I can think of is:
1st turn: spectrier subs up, obstagoon breaks it with knock off.
2nd turn: spectrier disables knock, obstagoon tricks it a flame orb.
at the end of this you have a spectrier that subbed up for basically no gain, and is burned. It also needs to sub again to sweep which means it will probably be at around 40% without taking any hits. It can probably win the 1v1 vs obstagoon at the cost of crippling itself beyond help if it packs dark pulse. If it is running a ghost move it's pretty much done for.
But I think people underestimate how bad replacing leftovers with a burn is on pokemon that depend on subs. With lefties, you can invest into your subs, and get a lot of the health back, without them and while burned, every broken sub hurts you a lot and sets you on a ridicoulously fast timer, especially combined with entry hazards. Think of this: we are analyzing what happens in the two turns in both scenarios:
1. scenario: you have lefties, no burn. on the first turn you sub, and the lefties heal you, on the second turn you do whatever you were gonna do behind the sub and get lefty heals again. in this case, a sub cost you 13% health.
2. scenario: you have burn, no lefties. on the first turn you sub, and the burn damages you, on the second turn you do whatever you were gonna do behind the sub and get burn damage again. in this case, a sub cost you 37% health. So basically you can do this twice before dying.
Alright, thank you. I think that a Spectrier set that only has Dark Pulse as its attacking move is much less threatening overall, especially if Obstagoon is able to give it a Flame Orb (although burns only do 6.25% in this gen so subbing with a burn would cost Spectrier 31%, which is still a lot). I don't feel like there's much of a reason for Obstagoon to run some niche fourth move over Switcheroo just for Spectrier, especially since Obstagoon isn't a very reliable answer to Specs Spectrier anyway.
 
Alright, thank you. I think that a Spectrier set that only has Dark Pulse as its attacking move is much less threatening overall, especially if Obstagoon is able to give it a Flame Orb (although burns only do 6.25% in this gen so subbing with a burn would cost Spectrier 31%, which is still a lot). I don't feel like there's much of a reason for Obstagoon to run some niche fourth move over Switcheroo just for Spectrier, especially since Obstagoon isn't a very reliable answer to Specs Spectrier anyway.
yh, it is weaker by quite a wide margin. Also the 37% is meant over two turns, beacuse the tought is, you use the first turn to set up a sub, and the second to actually do something behind the sub, which means you take burn damage twice. If you can't use the second turn to actually do something then you shouldn't sub, so that means you are taking two burn damage turns
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
yh, it is weaker by quite a wide margin. Also the 37% is meant over two turns, beacuse the tought is, you use the first turn to set up a sub, and the second to actually do something behind the sub, which means you take burn damage twice. If you can't use the second turn to actually do something then you shouldn't sub, so that means you are taking two burn damage turns
Oh yeah, my bad; I misread what you meant.
 

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I'm not claiming one way or another, but just for the sake of conversation...

I wonder if one day trapping moves will be banned or otherwise problematic. For a very long time Arena Trap and even Shadow Tag were tolerated and banned on a case by case basis. In Dugtrio's case it took 10+ years to finally be banned from 4th and 5th gens. If gen 9 was to be released tomorrow it wouldn't surprise me to see those trapping abilities quick banned, or otherwise the first things on the chopping block. Yet that kind of thinking about Dugtrio would be crazy talk in 2008. Dugtrio and Arena Trap were once considered a fair tactic and were seen as part of the meta.

Yet now we still have Pokemon like Toxapex or Urshifu-Water which can use trapping moves to prevent switching to either kill their counter via some odd anti-set or use the trap effect to deny a double switch. Block has been around since gen 3 and Grip Claw since 4 so these aren't exactly new strategies, but they have certainly seen much more use in recent years. No longer a joke move, trapping moves have seen serious play.

Again I'm not saying they're broken by any means but it seems like trapping moves are an attribute to the meta that has been slowly increasing in viability. I wonder if, just like Dugtrio, the player base will one day decide they are uncompetitive and best to be banished.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The main thing to keep in mind with trapping abilities vs trapping moves is that they tend to have a really high oppurtunity cost on whatever mon they're on or have some sort of enormous drawback like Magma storm's awful accuracy and PP. By using Block+Spite Pex, you are losing out on Haze and Scald, two incredibly important tools to fat teams, to trap a handful of pokemon due to Toxapex's relatively bad PP and noticeable passivity without removing boosts and burning all of its switchins. Dugtrio's opportunity cost was you just had to figure out how to get the thing in and it trapped pretty much everything slower that was grounded without a shed shell, even faster mons like Zera would lose to Sash as long as you were packing good hazard control.

so yea no, I don't think trapping moves as a whole are gonna be next up on the chopping block one day unless we get something as automatically impossible to retreat from, far reaching in what it traps, and low opportunity cost as Dugtrio. Also, its worth mentioning trapping moves have been seeing play since at least ADV with Mean Look Pass Umbreon, so the line on Trapping moves being a joke before is kind of incorrect.
 
In my opinion, the only reason people are even considering spectrier to be limiting at all is that 2 particular fighting-types are dominating the meta and on every team right now. Spectrier itself, I would argue, is not all that limiting seeing as it's checked almost entirely by two types which are weak to fighting itself. There are great dark or normal-type pokemon that just can't work because of Urshifu's and Pheromosa's overwhelming chokehold over the metagame. Bisharp, Crawdaunt, Weavile, Hydregion, and Ttar (in my opinion the weakest), all, I would argue, fantastic offensive options. Meanwhile, on the defensive side, you have AV magearna, Blissey of course, Kommo-o, Mandibuzz, SpDef Clef, and Swampert, though he and Kommo-o are very prone to being chipped down. Many people also come in with the argument "Spectrier can burn its checks with Will-O-Wisp and get out free" well, so can Dragapupt and he wasn't considered for a suspect at all as far as I know. The problem is not that Spectrier is limiting, it's that the fighting types limit teambuilding so much that spectrier is able to find teams over prepared for fighters but underprepared for it.
 
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Hey you! Yeah you, SweatySmogonGamer69. Are you tired out of your mind stacking Rocky Helmet onto things to punish Urshifu? What if I told you that Urshifu is about to make that strategy obsolete, and you can go back to using regular items?

Urshifu @ Protective Pads
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch/Filler
- Bulk Up/Filler

Introducing Protective Pads Urshifu, the newest tech that is sure to make a ladder player bewildered. Imagine a Ferrothorn ready to switch in and get a free 24% of chip damage onto Urshifu, only for Urshifu to take 0% and heal with Drain Punch. Isn't that absolutely hilarious? Imagine a Toxapex with Helmet trying to Baneful Bunker it in desperation only to get Crit and have Urshifu be not poisoned. Imagine an Aegislash trying to Kings Shield and Urshifu critting it through it and not suffering an attack drop. Doesn't that sound wonderful?

For the low low price of slapping a Slowbro on your team, you too can force free damage on the opponent at all times. Many a gamer will clamor for you to be banned, but frankly, it was their mistake to bring a defensive Pokemon and not their own Futureporting Panda Bear. On sale now!
 
I'm not claiming one way or another, but just for the sake of conversation...
I wonder if one day trapping moves will be banned or otherwise problematic. [...]
Considering I have had success with Mean Look Tapu Fini, I have to agree with this sentiment. I am currently experimenting on ladder with Block Taunt Quiver Dance Pheromosa as well. The idea was: In a Regenerator Meta trapping moves should be incredible. However, I still need to find my Future Sight Port Slowbro so to speak - for now the Trappers don't feel overwhelming, but let me be the second person to say I wouldn't be surprised if Trapping moves get suspected in the future.

On a similar note: Have we tried a Smogon metagame to reflect the restricted Pokemon moveset ingame (The guy in the Battle Tower whom removes old event moves etc. for the VGC stamp) ? And if not: Why? This, like an item clause, would of course shift the complete metagame but if we consider the principle of this Generation trying to remove moveset bloat am curious if it ever got considered.
 
View attachment 295222

Hey you! Yeah you, SweatySmogonGamer69. Are you tired out of your mind stacking Rocky Helmet onto things to punish Urshifu? What if I told you that Urshifu is about to make that strategy obsolete, and you can go back to using regular items?

Urshifu @ Protective Pads
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch/Filler
- Bulk Up/Filler

Introducing Protective Pads Urshifu, the newest tech that is sure to make a ladder player bewildered. Imagine a Ferrothorn ready to switch in and get a free 24% of chip damage onto Urshifu, only for Urshifu to take 0% and heal with Drain Punch. Isn't that absolutely hilarious? Imagine a Toxapex with Helmet trying to Baneful Bunker it in desperation only to get Crit and have Urshifu be not poisoned. Imagine an Aegislash trying to Kings Shield and Urshifu critting it through it and not suffering an attack drop. Doesn't that sound wonderful?

For the low low price of slapping a Slowbro on your team, you too can force free damage on the opponent at all times. Many a gamer will clamor for you to be banned, but frankly, it was their mistake to bring a defensive Pokemon and not their own Futureporting Panda Bear. On sale now!

I mean, it works, but Urshifu already ignores Bunker and Kings Shield with Unseen Fist.
 
Re: :Spectrier:

Every second Spectrier stays in the tier somebody around the world stubs their toe. I did question whether it was truly broken (and of course the metagame is still evolving and fresh so there’s always a chance this can change) but undeniably we have reached a point where it is clear that it might be too overcentralizing and unhealthy to stay in this metagame. The main reason for this is because it pretty much feels like if you have a team without specially defensive Tyranitar or some sort of priority/speed (Rillaboom/Specs Dragapult) you’ve already lost. This in and of itself is a huge issue for every mon and if you remember Dracocish was actually banned for almost the exact same reason, being overcentralizing (if your team lacked Seismitoad or Ferro good luck dude). The metagame has tried to adapt - Incineroar and Obstagoon have seen more usage and the former is actually a really good check to it just is mainly held back by its opportunity cost over Lando-T - but with new mons and strategies popping up Spectrier still is by far the best Pokemon in the metagame and requires you to make every prediction perfect to avoid being swept by it. Just in a general sense, the fact that Spectrier forces you to run a check to it and leave that check untouched throughout the game is ridiculous and it puts a lot of pressure on your team and teambuilding; even when you do have a check, it still seems to both a) shift the momentum of the game to the user just by being in the game and b) take out 1-2 Pokemon.

You may notice how Mandibuzz was off that list I mentioned (with Ttar and Speed being its best checks), and that brings me to another point: Spectrier’s ability to get around its checks and counters is characteristic of an unhealthy Pokemon (Greninja when it got Gunk Shot, Landorus-I when it started using Gravity) and it has become so problematic we're starting to see teams dedicate 1-2 hard checks (would say counters but even then some of these can get worn down throughout the match) like Shadow Ball Blissey and Obstagoon running something other than Guts. We'd seldom see these movesets or mon (Obstagoon, to an extent Incineroar which I love to use but still) pop up if Spectrier was out of the tier. In this case of Mandibuzz, Mandibuzz actually can lose to some Substitute sets, which should theoretically never happen at all. This, and just the fact that new mons are popping up solely to beat this thing, is really concerning; it's the most simple example of Spectrier being overcentralizing and unhealthy to the metagame. Mons that are overcentralizing to this extent have a certain spot for them in Smogon metagames, and it's called Ubers. I think insta losing a game because Spectrier ripped off a boost and your "checks" still somehow fail to beat it is unhealthy to the metagame. I'm still on the fence obviosuly because the metagame is like two weeks old, but it's felt like Spectrier has been an issue before brokemon #1 and brokemon #2 left anyways, and I think because of its overcentralization and ability to evade its checks and counters it might be time to get it out of the tier.
 
Honestly IMO, you could replace the words "FuturePort" with Spikes pre-Heavy-Duty Boots. All that matters is the switch-in is taking extra chip as it goes to take the hit which prevents it checking what it's meant to. It's a different means of accomplishing the same result.
Not really.
Firstly, Teleport is an easy guaranteed way to bring in a solid breaker like Ushifu without the commitment of regularly switching or having a faster Pivot. That’s easy the most broken component. Slowbro/king tanks a hit/status for Urshifu, brings it in, then also heals itself while a pretty hard hitting Psychic attack coming right at you. Or it could very well do the same for another breaker in the tier that could replace Urshifu or is on the same team.
Second is the fact that Defog exists. While Taunt does exist, you are not always going to have a Taunter out on the field to immediately stop Teleport. With hazards, you can remove them at almost any time.
Third is that Spikes requires a lot more set up to deal 25% damage. While FS can’t hit Dark types and is resisted other types, you also have to consider that most special tanks don’t take kindly to Urshifu’s Close Combat or Wicked Blow, while physical tanks don’t like FS.

This combo wouldn’t be as problematic as people are making it out to be because of Teleport. It’s the underlying problem here, as Future Sight+Wallbreaker on a team hasn’t been a problem before, and such a combo could easily be stopped by having your own wallbreaker or some offensive threat that beats both Pokemon.
Problem is that Slowbro/King can just Teleport when that check into something faster than can threaten them out or ko them.
 
Considering I have had success with Mean Look Tapu Fini, I have to agree with this sentiment. I am currently experimenting on ladder with Block Taunt Quiver Dance Pheromosa as well. The idea was: In a Regenerator Meta trapping moves should be incredible. However, I still need to find my Future Sight Port Slowbro so to speak - for now the Trappers don't feel overwhelming, but let me be the second person to say I wouldn't be surprised if Trapping moves get suspected in the future.

On a similar note: Have we tried a Smogon metagame to reflect the restricted Pokemon moveset ingame (The guy in the Battle Tower whom removes old event moves etc. for the VGC stamp) ? And if not: Why? This, like an item clause, would of course shift the complete metagame but if we consider the principle of this Generation trying to remove moveset bloat am curious if it ever got considered.
Block QD is fun asf. I run bug buzz and ice beam as my attacking moves. What moves do you run, I'm interested in seeing what you run.
 
Even though against most sets Obstagoon is a pretty good answer, one set has potential to break through it: Specs. Obstagoon is cleanly 3HKOd by a Specs Mud Shot AKA Fake HP Ground, which is a common filler move so it can hit Heatran for massive damage. While this does not seem like big damage, and it kind of isn't, this can dissuade it from switching in again due to it's very poor longevity, especially if hazards are up and it's burned, because then it can be easily chipped down really fast and becomes more wary of coming in on another Mud Shot. The speed drop also does not do it any favors.


(Other possible filler moves on the Specs set like Uproar and Hyper Beam 2HKO and almost always OHKO respectively, but I didn't mention them for their obvious drawbacks. Hyper Beam does at least either outright kill it or at worst force a trade. Still, considering that Spectrier has almost nothing else to run someone might decide to use these just for specific situations.)
Its generally a loss for the Spectrier player if they lock into mud shot because its so bad against most other things. At worst you can still force them out once after a switch in, which can be pretty costly for the opponent since flame orb Goon is very difficult to switch into, and can still later revenge or force the Spectier out after they've locked into shadow ball. The Spectrier player will often double out with it early in the game if they see a Goon on your team since its such an obvious switch in, but that at least gives you a free flame orb activation, so its not a total loss even if you lose some momentum.
 
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Just a general commentary on the metagame to both add to discussion and maybe start some new ones too.



I maintain that practically nothing has changed for this thing since sm. What it lost in z moves was minimal this generation due to less set variations across the tier and it still being absurdly strong both choiced and unchoiced for Quiver or HDB sets which can outright sweep late game in their own right. Its offensive utility is unrivaled across the tier between its insane speed and dual offensive stats and it outright picks what mons and structures it wants to beat. This is in tandem with its ability to always force in its checks or pivot directly out of them and you just have in my opinion a very oppressive force in the meta. Its frailty doesn't really matter when it has tonnes of opportunity to free pivot in and the priority in the tier being practically non existent outside Urshifu who can't KO it and Rilla who requires a band to beat and as far as I'm aware mosa can be ev'd to live it from full too without much of a loss in power or speed. Personally I'd ban it based on how polarizing it is alone, especially considering the sentiment in this thread seems to be trending pro ban again? Fickle fuckers cant make up their minds lol.




This thing actually upsets me. It is countered by Buzzwole. That is it. It has access to priority, its strongest set is probably bulk up due to its flexibility with move choice and ability to blow past its typical switch-ins. Even in a meta filled with Pheromosa its still finding itself to be insanely dominant. To a point where people are blaming future sight as the main issue over this. This in spite of the fact that the back end of DLC 1 OU meta showcased that even with a lack of future sight support Urshifu is an incredibly strong wallbreaker. I can't really see any significant changes between how this current meta has shaped up compared to DLC 1 and considering the consensus was that it should have been banned then surely it should still be the same. As for if this would be ok post say a pheromosa ban, a mosa ban will inherently make the tier slower with the exception of certain mons in the 110 area becoming popular again that don't actually resist sucker anyways so it should just benefit its wall breaking. Side note that we've all been losing to a mon that is still without a gif 5 months on. Just ban it and save the coders some trouble of adding the .gif at this point.




Y'all know what Spectrier does. I'm not gonna wax lyrical about what sets it can run to circumvent certain checks and counters cause its pretty limited so everyone should know by now. The only set that I don't really really see being mentioned is sub calm mind to actually circumvent Blissey 100% of the time unless its calm mind itself but that's beside the point. This things checks and counters are extremely limited and its honestly pretty unique in that I don't think we have had a mon that constricts building this much while only really having like 6 moves that it can click viably. The issue is its absurd strength and speed and the pressure it puts on building. Now if you don't build and only really play with good teams people have built I'm sure you'd assume people are insane for wanting it banned. The issue is you are essentially required to run minimum one normal or dark type to proactively switch in to this thing. If your sole choice of mon in this regard is say an Urshifu you will also require additional speed control via priority or scarfing or a SpDef Heatran to additionally check it. Generally these are nice things to have anyways but Spectrier makes them essential. It can break past its shakier checks once it gets to neighing and its scarf set has pretty much unrivaled ability to pick off Bulky/Hype offense in the late game once its checks have been whittled. I'd like to ban the spooky horse based on its constrictive nature as such. I dont envision anything changing for how this horse operates in the future nor do I see how any additional metagame changes could negatively affect it in the future. Unless for some reason Umbreon, Snorlax, and Calm Mind Blissey become staples of the ou metagame after a potential ban of the premier figthing types.


Those are what I see the big 3 as far as bans needing to happen. Be they quickbanned or suspected i'm fairly certain the community would benefit from this happening quite soon. The only metagame development outside ladder play happening at the moment is smogtour and so if we choose to delay decisions further for metagame development and then choose to suspect, not ban, each of these one at a time we are going to be playing whats essentially the same metagame until after March (assuming at least one suspect is allowed to occur during SPL which is usually avoided due to metagame locks during tours being preferable).

Other notable pokemon include:



The fire bunny got unbanned and is still causing massive issues for offense teams. Dragonite is the main new check offense got and is currently struggling with how to value itself while using HDB due to being prone to status without lum and lacking immediate power without band. All while the metas a little too fast and strong for bulky DD to see any notable use thus far but it has potential. Anyways, Cinders got Tran to worry about now too but its kinda being overshadowed by the other fast strong hitters in the tier at the moment. Once they're gone I'm sure we will end back up to the wcop dlc1 meta with some slight variations.




Magearna is still very much dope and again, not much has changed for this mon outside tran becoming a thing again too. Specs is still insane and kinda underrated at the moment while its cheesy boosting sets are still winning games behind screens with a regularity reminiscent of why it got banned in the first place. Right now overshadowed but again, once other stuff goes nothing has really changed for this thing. I would however not be surprised to see it take up more of a support role a la late SM because of the dlc 2 additions which obviously wouldn't see it be broken so should be fun to watch and develop in future but specs does still practically one hit the whole tier so....... who knows.




The blazin' kickin' chicken dropped and kinda seems to have some semblance of balance to it weirdly enough. I'd strongly recommend people to start running specially biased mixed sets if they want something a lil different from their Blazikens. It is absurdly strong on both offenses and special can afford solarbeam with sun up or with power herb (Honestly I don't like power herb cause you lack power but its a neat lure so props to Omari for highlighting it earlier in the thread). I also think protects being undervalued on Blaziken as a way to circumvent its speed tier issues. It still does Blaziken things but its struggling to do it as easy in this meta. Once other stuff goes if the meta slows down a bit it will be back to uber levels of relentless wallbreaking and snowballing but hey, its fun for now so lets enjoy it n_n




This things absurd LOL. Anyone running utility Torn right now needs to take a reassessment on how they're building in SS. Life orbs power is unbelievable and in rain it pretty much one hit or two hits the whole tier between hurricane weather ball and superpower/focus blast. Outside rain it still has heatwave which leaves it walled by like Nihilego????? Well, and the Rotoms if your superpower>focus blast. I do feel like the rotoms deserve more usage in this meta but they're kinda hard to fit on teams right now so I get the lack of them. Fast and strong with incredible bulk and repeat longevity cause of Regenerator. Give it time and watch Torn grow as a dominant force in this meta cause I really don't see any eventuality in which it doesn't leave its mark on this tier.




I oddly enough don't have any major problem with Mel and I think it could well be balanced in the tier. The shit hits incredibly hard, is kinda only walled by like Corviknight and Skarmory but its also slow as balls. Then again its bulk is insane. This mon may be the most conflicting piece of fuckery I have ever had the displeasure of trying to figure out. At the moment I abstain from judgement on it because even when this thing got rebanned after the test it wasn't actually clear if it was broken. I do usually lean to the side of do not ban if it isn't blatantly restricting so as such I don't think I'd ban it even if we ever got round to having to test it.




So there was talk of a Pex ban before snake and although it quietened down during it it still murmured on. The issue I see with Pex is similar to the one we had with Aegislash in XY with the exception that its exclusively in a defensive sense. Toxapex tends to warp the meta around itself just due to its sheer bulk, typing and regenerator being capable of shutting down entire move sets and typings by itself. Honestly, I'm perfectly fine with it right now but the same issues that were pronounced in DLC1 will continue to occur in most metagames it exists outside the ones that have been extremely power crept or apparently the ones where trapping moves reign supreme above all (fuck you benjamin) i.e. The current metagame. Even then its almost an inevitability this gets slapped on a team to deal with Mosa. Also for the dude who mentioned Calm Mind Taunt Fini to beat this, Toxapex should really be running one of Gunk Shot or Poison Jab to beat Quiver Dance Mosa alone on alot of the structures its been ending up on recently so gotta be careful with that.


Lastly, so that this post is not entirely unrelated to some of the stuff people have talked about (even in spite of Finch asking very nicely not to talk about it) I'll leave some direct responses to stuff like Future Port below.

PK gaming summed it up rather perfectly when he said people are trying to treat the symptom rather than the cause. Anyone claiming Urshifu has not always been this issue I urge you to go look at late DLC 1 meta and reassess that opinion. Its not really just one of many. Yes, it so happens that Cinderace also benefited from Future Port when it was running around but again, Cinderace was in its own right a demon in that metagame barely requiring any support at all to dismantle teams and prove limiting to multiple archetypes. As such we have actually yet to see a single mon that is not largely accepted as broken in its own right be pushed over the edge by Future Port into a ban. So why is the strategy being considered broken again? One it really is not and Ill gladly argue against anyone who thinks it is until someone comes up with a breaker that ACTUALLY requires Future Sight+Teleport support and is consistent enough to be considered ban worthy. On the topic of complex bans I agree that their fucking stupid and every instance of them has been all but eradicated via recent tiering decisions and I fully support it. The only instance I probably would have advocated for one was with Baton Pass to preserve dry pass in ORAS cause it was actually fun and useful but by gones are by gones. If for some reason you ever want the strategy banned you gotta ban Slowbro and show how it clearly facilitates MULTIPLE pokemon to be pushed over the edge or become problematic and right now I don't think that is possible so I'd love for people to move on from the ban Slowbro arguments that have been plaguing this thread for about a week now.


Obstagoons a great pokemon that struggles to function versus so many different archetypes that are your standard Pex balance. I absolutely love it but its kinda just average at the moment. Especially considering it actually loses to like all the coverage moves on Spectrier if its a choiced set which is just funny. I agree that it can be explored further but currently I probably wouldn't bother running it. If obstruct was kings shield I'd probably change my mind as it could provide utility versus the mons that are faster than it like Mosa or Scarf Lando/Tran in terms of balance handling switching into them easier but its obviously something that can work and so why not have fun with it!


Ben Gay had a pretty fun Lickilicky stall in XY/ORAS and it was probably the only other instance I've seen someone legitimately suggest it as useful. I kinda love the Mon as it has a pretty hilarious design. I like that it does beat taunt but unfortunately a burnt knock doesn't break its Substitute which is depressing. Lickilicky is also ALOT easier to force chip on to with doubles. It beats Dark Pulse sets which is cool but I largely see it as outclassed entirely by Blissey with it only really beating one particular set better than Blissey (Sub Calm Mind Dark Pulse Shadow Ball, If its Nasty Plot Blissey still beats it just as well).


Trapping moves wont ever be banned in their current form because they come up with so much opportunity cost to be ran. They can miss, have low strength, are turn limited, type locked, and crucially mean you have to drop a utility move alot of mons can't afford to drop with their most common sets. Block is the most notable exception but it has practically no PP and is only really viably ran on Aegislash and Toxapex, both as lures rather than standard sets due to losing out on so much utility. Ben gay is a demon who pops up every few months and decides he wishes to ruin OU once more by abusing the fuck out of trapping and I respect and hate it. The abilities have less drawback and as such are inherently broken.


Overall I don't really like the meta and would love to see some of the more problematic stuff go before SPL so that we can finally have some positive metagame growth that is not revolved solely around threats that we have already banned previously in this gen or the last. I don't particularly agree with reasoning behind unbanning half of what got unbanned in the first place as I'm sure people can agree that it has decreased the speed at which this meta could settle in time for some of the major tours to take place i.e. Smogtour Playoffs and SPL. Council are being way more open with dealing with discussion on these kind of things now though so that is greatly appreciated, just wish there was a way to speed things up without the whole of Smogon having a good cry about it. Sucks to be in a lose lose situation 90% of the time. ANYWAYS, thanks for reading, tag me if you wanna talk pokemons n_n

P.S. TDK and Eo Ut Mortus should give us some of their thoughts on the metagame. TDK recently managed the Rattlers to Snake Draft finals and has been considered one of the foremost builders of generations 6 through 8. Eo recently won said Snake Draft finals with the Lindworms and is largely considered to be one of, if not, the best Gen 8 OU player on site. This might also give poor Finch a break as the designated community liason for the council. Only if they have time, of course :bloblul:
 
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Wigglytuff

mad @ redacted in redacted
is a Tiering Contributor
Mamoswine?


With Static, Flame Body, Rocky Helm/Iron Barbs/Rough Skin all running rampant in the metagame, the conventional physical breakers (Urshifu-S/R, Pheromosa, Cinderace, etc) have to be extremely careful with when they attack, pack a teammate with Misty Surge, or compromise their offensive utility or longevity by running Protective Pads. In fact, I think this might be why there's been an uptick in SD Garchomp; the three attacks it usually makes use of (Earthquake / Scale Shot / Stone Edge) don't make contact. However, I've been curious to see how Mamoswine might fare under the same conditions.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat / Oblivious
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off / Freeze Dry / Heavy Slam
- Ice Shard
The set obviously isn't anything groundbreaking.
  • Life Orb is preferable to Choice Band because you'll often find yourself in situations where after hitting something faster on the switch, you'll need an Ice Shard to finish it off, but if you're a mons god you'd get more efficiency and longevity out of CB. I also find myself in a lot of endgame scenarios where it's something like Pex and a Flying type. Yeah it's possible to still lose if you get outplayed 10 times but really what are the odds of that versus having to switch out if you pick the wrong move.
  • Thick Fat is nice for the rare situation where opposing Moltres is somehow fast enough to outspeed Mamo and also bulky enough to take two Crashes (sometimes with a bit of luck with rolls). Having Flamethrower do ~50 as opposed to straight up killing gives you the possibility of staying in and going for the kill. This is obviously somewhat niche (not as niche as you'd think though, Moltres is pretty common) so Oblivious is also an option to make Lando switchins irrelevant. Without Intimidate drop, they're either faster and they drop to an Ice Shard, or they're bulky but are outsped and drop to a Crash.
  • Earthquake / Icicle Crash / Ice Shard are all set in stone. I don't think running Icicle Spear for better accuracy is worth it because you miss out on so much power that you really need.
  • Knock Off is where it gets interesting. Out of ~50 games played, I think I've clicked Knock once, and that was just a read of my opponent going Barraskewda from weakened Pelipper.
    • Freeze Dry might be better to OHKO Pelipper (unless SpDef, which is almost never) and the rare Quagsire, along with doing heavy damage to Swampert (PhysDef: ~80 SpDef: ~55). I wouldn't recommend changing the nature from Adamant to something that's SpAtk neutral, because I can't think of any calcs where that would be relevant, and you really need as much bulk as you can get.
    • Heavy Slam also pretty much OHKOs Max Max Bold Clef (~88%), but I think of situations like that as pretty rare since I build my teams so that there are better things to handle Clef.
  • Ice Shard is the main draw of this over Garchomp. Pheromosa is running rampant at the moment and having something that can pick it off from high health is always a plus. Like all other unboosted priority, you do need a bit of chip (252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 200-238 (70.6 - 84%), but that's not difficult to achieve. If it's QD, some pivoting and LO/Hazard chip will get you there quickly. If it's Boots Physical, any Rocky Helmet user gets you there pretty much instantly.
    • also OHKOs any offensive Garchomp. HP or PhysDef (or both) invested will take 1, but not very well
    • also does a nice job of forcing out/taking out some common rain threats after like 1 stealth rock of chip (Torn (T), Thundurus (T), Zapdos). Just be sure to calc these carefully.
Impressions so far: I paired Mamo with a Future Sight Slowking because, as we've discussed for > a page, Breaker + FuturePort is really strong at the moment. From there I went more of a defensive route with stuff like Moltres and AV Magearna, but I could see a more offensive build work too (although I think not as well for reasons I'll explain later).

It's a high risk, high reward pick for sure. It tears apart common defensive mons and cores (Clef, Mandi, Pex, Melmetal, Slowking/Bro to a smaller extent, Tyranitar and Moltres if you can secure a bit of chip (like 1 sand tick is usually enough)) but is also deadweight against really common offensive threats. Both of the Urshifus force it out with both of their STABs (Ice Shard does barely anything), Water-type anything tends to give it trouble, it's embarrassingly slower than some Suicune sets, it hard loses the Rillaboom dynamic most of the time. Some of these issues can be mitigated with Future Sight but then you have to think about just using some other broken breaker.

The metagame is a little too fast for Mamoswine to thrive at the moment, but it's a solid sleeper pick against players hoping to win by attrition with balance. Be careful with managing hazards and Life Orb chip and calc things for god's sake.
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
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OU & NU Leader
Been playing a lot lately and figured I would share some observations. I'll be posting my thoughts on Spectrier/Pheromosa/other controversial Pokemon in the next day or two, too. For now, here are some strategies I view as underrated:

:Kartana:
Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Giga Impact

This Kartana is a foolproof breaker in the metagame; virtually every single game it can get a kill on a target Pokemon, be it due to the sheer strength of Kartana's Leaf Blade, the convenience of and power of boosted Knock Off, or the nuclear option of Giga Impact, which is the big selling point of the set. When paired with Pokemon that enjoy the birds or Buzzwole lured (see: calcs on all of these) and traded with, this Kartana does a fantastic job opening things up. Of course, it mandates speed control or a durable enough defensive backbone to withstand giving the opponents a free turn or making this into a full-on trade as Giga Impact has a gnarly drawback. With this said, it is oftentimes worthwhile due to the sheer convenience of covering the Pokemon it hits. Regardless of this though, SD LO Kartana is very strong and I believe it should be used a lot more on both balance and offensive teams.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Moltres: 441-519 (115.1 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 464-547 (120.8 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 363-428 (102.5 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 409-482 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 309-365 (90 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 385-454 (123.7 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 326-385 (109 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 298-351 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+4 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 500-590 (119.6 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Works if you SD on switch and then SD again because of: 0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

:Magearna:
Magearna @ Life Orb
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast
- Stored Power

Not that you can go wrong with Magearna much at all, but this is easily my favorite Shift Gear variant. Yes, it is reliant on Focus Blast, but if you hit (which you only need to ~once most games), then it has just about all you need so long as you do not run into Aegislash, Volcarona, or Victini. Stored Power with a Shift Gear and/or a Calm Mind gets surprisingly strong when boosted by Life Orb, being able to outdamage Toxapex's Recovery and Life Orb also allows for you to decimate non-Thunder Wave Blissey so long as you hit 2/3 Focus Blast. I quite like this as a cleaner against balance teams, but if you face enough offensive firepower, it can simply be used to break down the defensive core of balance teams in order to assure some progress is made while still being a soft check to a handful of things defensively in the early game because it's still a Magearna after all. I like it best on hyper offense due to its ability to snowball out of control and compliment other common win conditions, but it can certainly work on a balance / bulky offensive build so long as there are other strong offensive presences that can keep up the pressure.
252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- Shift Gear
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- Calm Mind
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 393-463 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 393-463 (101.8 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 307-361 (90 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO -- Shift Gear + Calm Mind
252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 289-341 (95.3 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock -- Shift Gear

https://pokepast.es/b03b80b5f61db9aa -- Here's a HO team I have been using with both of the above sets. Originally Storm Zone had a team with Cinderace > Magearna, Bisharp > Urshifu, Smart Strike > Giga Impact on Kartana, and some other set changes, but I made some edits to make it more to my liking and then changed the aforementioned Pokemon. It has been really successful on the ladder and I think it carves up balances, besides those with Unaware Clef + Buzzwole cores or a well-played Ditto.

I used it in Smogon Tour here as well, but it ran into a nightmare situation against a Jolly Choice Band Pheromosa. The team -- and other HOs -- tend to struggle with things that can snowball out of control like specific Pheromosa and Scarf Spectrier, but you can oftentimes minimize this due to priority and timely resistances. Even in games like this, there are still outs. For example, Magearna lived Close Combat 40% of the time from Pheromosa and if it did or I set up my own Pheromosa first before his got rolling, then the game could have snowballed in my direction instead (re: the former, if I lived, then Kartana clean swept the remainder after Pheromosa died, which is a totally different way for things to snowball out of control to maintain the same point). Obviously you live on the edge with these and similar hyper offenses, as people have for most of the generations, but the tools to win virtually every game are there and that is really cool imo).


:Zapdos:
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 184 HP / 252 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Discharge
- Roost
- U-turn

I have not used this one as much as the others quite yet, but it is really hard to switch into and not challenging to fit on to teams so long as you have another plan for hazard removal (hint: using two Flying types will not kill your entire synergy scheme, but also there's a wide array of viable removal rn). Offensive Zapdos is not a complete stranger from the metagame, having surfaced since the first days of it being out, however I think U-turn allows for it to always be part of sequences that are generating progress. The obvious benefits are being able to U-turn on things like Blissey and Heatran, but to that you might ask "why not Volt Switch?" and the simple retort is that U-turn offers a midground that does not get punished by Ground types. You are going to encounter the inevitable Zapdos on Garchomp/Landorus-T/Excadrill/Swampert/Nidoking/Gastrodon/Hippowdon match-up most times you use Zapdos and not having to predict around this while relying on a 70% move makes the most of Zapdos and its teammates I feel. Going for a Volt Switch on a potential midground to a Stone Edge Landorus-T, Sheer Force Nidoking, or any sort of offensive Garchomp is not ideal. You do lose out on the damage output from Volt Switch, but overall I like U-turn as a midground option and I think that not limiting your Zapdos to the role of Defogger offers a lot of untapped offensive potential. As for the EV spread, this just outruns +Speed Magearna and neutral speed Heatran. 248 SAtk is needed to 2HKO Clefable with Hurricane always, so I just maxed it out and put the remainder in HP. There are some other combinations worth experimenting with, especially if you can reliably Knock Off Clefable earlier in games, freeing up more room to invest in bulk or speed. Obviously Defog defensive Zapdos is still a good option, but this is a different take on Zapdos and I find it does a great job, too.

:Heatran:
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 204 HP / 176 SpA / 128 Spe*
Modest Nature*
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume

*also works with a standard SDef spread, which also helps bluff being fully SDef Heatran

If you reveal Lava Plume in the early game with Heatran, then Toxapex is far more likely to stay in against you to go for Knock Off/Scald/Recover. From there, getting off a Magma Storm makes it very easy to trap it. The same goes for things like weakened Blissey or Clefable. While you lose the ability to set-up Stealth Rock, which can easily be fulfilled by a number of other common options, you gain a ton of practical surprise value that can help eliminate common defensive options. Lava Plume in general is a good move as it can burn things and still does solid STAB damage, but using it + Magma Storm opens up a ton of scenarios where the opponent is lured into a false sense of being able to switch by a former only to be trapped by the combination of the ladder and Taunt+EPower. Being able to remove a Toxapex or a Clefable can open up so many potential paths for teams, too. I think this Heatran set is super underrated, but it is admiteddly a little more challenging to fit onto teams than the normal sets we see that have other defined roles. I believe ABR used dual Fire Heatran on a Z set last generation once or twice, but otherwise I do not think it has seen much use, let alone any this generation.

:Garchomp:
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 232 HP / 220 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Dragon Tail / Flamethrower
- Endure

I don't like Tank Garchomp as much now as I did when it initially came out, but it is still a serviceable pick on bulky offense. If I ever were to use it more, it absolutely would be with Endure though. Endure + Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin followed up by another round of Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin to potentially kill Garchomp from there can lead to hilarious amounts of residual damage being taken. In a metagame where U-turn spam is already super prevalent, it is one way to punish it more directly. I feel like this only shines on a handful of teams right now, but the damage can wrack up and making the most of that while potentially having the option to scout things out or save Garchomp as fodder can come in handy. Not my original idea or set here as it has existed in prior generations, but it was never truly mainstream and I feel it is one of the best options if Tank Garchomp were to see more usage.

Back to spamming Toxapex and Clefable as that's clearly all I want the metagame to evolve into~
 
Mamoswine?
Mamoswine @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat / Oblivious
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off / Freeze Dry / Heavy Slam
- Ice Shard
  • Knock Off is where it gets interesting. Out of ~50 games played, I think I've clicked Knock once, and that was just a read of my opponent going Barraskewda from weakened Pelipper.
    • Freeze Dry might be better to OHKO Pelipper (unless SpDef, which is almost never) and the rare Quagsire, along with doing heavy damage to Swampert (PhysDef: ~80 SpDef: ~55). I wouldn't recommend changing the nature from Adamant to something that's SpAtk neutral, because I can't think of any calcs where that would be relevant, and you really need as much bulk as you can get.
    • Heavy Slam also pretty much OHKOs Max Max Bold Clef (~88%), but I think of situations like that as pretty rare since I build my teams so that there are better things to handle Clef.
I have to wonder if having Stone Edge as a possible fourth move slot option could have any merit, mainly for catching unsuspecting Moltres on the switch. Knock Off would automatically cripple Moltres as it is, due to HDB removal neutering it with rocks up. But I imagine it would be hilarious to catch an incoming Moltres with a surprise SE to the flaming beak. Knock is probably better in most matchups solely due to the utility, but I think edge could have some unexplored merit too.
 
sry to barge in and change the topic but,

i think magnezone is quite underrated right now as both a steel type trapper(mainly ferro) and a potential sweeper and here is the said set:

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Discharge

i use this set alongside scarf trick clef and it works so well since it helps to remove steel mons+setup for 1-2 extra kills before switching out(or not if the game is already over by then). Really fun to use and it needs more love. The speed is for Heatran btw...

Random replays that feature the set:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1231815594-hzh3wumwzrn42m5okv1khy7v4nj8fiopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1231817420-arvke3anes0lg1lcyv44abr5lb9chwrpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1233032847-559rjd8vknqvspud22wvsx8mwc4ypdupw
 

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