Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I know this topic has been touched on by others, but I feel like I need to bring it up again.

:garchomp:

Sand Veil/BrightPowder Garchomp is extremely strong, despite how little use it sees. To give some context, with sand up, all 100% accurate moves are 67% accurate. Attempting any move with less than 100% accuracy is a flimsy strategy at best. I know the council does not complex ban, and I have advocated in favor of that sentiment multiple times in this thread, but I seriously think this set should be looked at as something uncompetitive.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242631115-hw1hlnvbo26ttm5ldgvqi0td1116a62pw

(skip to turn 20)

This replay here shows how brutal this set can be. Despite me missing a Scale Shot on a full phys def Mandibuzz, the opponent proceeds to get RNG'd and miss two straight foul plays, allowing me to scale shot twice for the kill. After the opponent attempts pivoting around to try and stop the bleeding, Melmetal proceeds to miss a DIB without sand up, giving me another kill. Then Spectrier comes in a misses a Hex, forcing the opponent to sack another mon.

Was this battle bad luck? Sure. But if we are vying for competitive integrity, I think it would be worth it to at least consider looking into this combination.
Lmao, the more things change, the more they stay the same, huh? This is pre-platinum DP all over again, did you also have Toxic Spikes on Toxapex?
Brightpowder, as appealing as it sounds, isn't better than Leftovers as an item, without it, your 'Chomp will die quickly and have less chances to fish for misses with Substitute, if you really want to try this, definitely not PoS set Leftovers is the better choice.
But if you really want to suspect it, I feel Garchomp has been fucked by the power creep generations 5 to now gradually brought, it's stupid, don't take me wrong, but there are MANY things worse that should be dealt with first.
 
Lmao, the more things change, the more they stay the same, huh? This is pre-platinum DP all over again, did you also have Toxic Spikes on Toxapex?
Brightpowder, as appealing as it sounds, isn't better than Leftovers as an item, without it, your 'Chomp will die quickly and have less chances to fish for misses with Substitute, if you really want to try this, definitely not PoS set Leftovers is the better choice.
But if you really want to suspect it, I feel Garchomp has been fucked by the power creep generations 5 to now gradually brought, it's stupid, don't take me wrong, but there are MANY things worse that should be dealt with first.
To answer your question, no, I don't have t-spikes.


Wasn't around here for gen 5, so not aware of the ban or what happened preceding it. Certainly not suggesting for an immediate suspect, I agree that there is plenty of other unhealthy shit that needs to be addressed first. I just think it is something that should be looked at for the future, just as we have an evasion clause.
 

Kyotoshi

Going Against God
is a Tiering Contributor
I know this topic has been touched on by others, but I feel like I need to bring it up again.

:garchomp:

Sand Veil/BrightPowder Garchomp is extremely strong, despite how little use it sees. To give some context, with sand up, all 100% accurate moves are 67% accurate. Attempting any move with less than 100% accuracy is a flimsy strategy at best. I know the council does not complex ban, and I have advocated in favor of that sentiment multiple times in this thread, but I seriously think this set should be looked at as something uncompetitive.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242631115-hw1hlnvbo26ttm5ldgvqi0td1116a62pw

(skip to turn 20)

This replay here shows how brutal this set can be. Despite me missing a Scale Shot on a full phys def Mandibuzz, the opponent proceeds to get RNG'd and miss two straight foul plays, allowing me to scale shot twice for the kill. After the opponent attempts pivoting around to try and stop the bleeding, Melmetal proceeds to miss a DIB without sand up, giving me another kill. Then Spectrier comes in a misses a Hex, forcing the opponent to sack another mon.

Was this battle bad luck? Sure. But if we are vying for competitive integrity, I think it would be worth it to at least consider looking into this combination.
Sand veil barely came into play here. Really this replay just shows off that you were able to dodge two moves off of the bright powder boost alone (since sand was gone at that point) which you could do with any bright powder mon given good enough rng. It’s like running focus band and getting the 10% rng every time you get hit so your mon can never be knocked out. Hardly banworthy
 
Fumes, Sand Veil + Bright Power Garchomp is something I've actually looked into. I haven't used it nearly enough as I've been looking into more niche OU sets, and more recently, NU sets. Anyways, the combination of these two items leaves 100% accuracy moves down to a whopping 67.5%. It's pretty impressive assuming its left undisturbed. However, this set-up is just too easy to be ruined to be considered as competitive instead of a more direct offense. I mean, Hone Claws pokemon, while not as apparent, still do remain in the tier. However, as I was told about one of my sets, you still have to consider the niche. Although, this set can more directly be ruined by weather changers. Drizzle Pelipper is quite often run, and Defog users can lower your evasion. You also have to consider Knock Off users that will get rid of your Bright Powder, Skill Swap and Entrainment users that may erase your Sand Veil, and that your Sandstorm is still temporary. Since there are too many ways to ruin this set, I don't see it to be as viable as a straightforward offensive Garchomp, although that may just be my opinion.
 
Sand veil barely came into play here. Really this replay just shows off that you were able to dodge two moves off of the bright powder boost alone (since sand was gone at that point) which you could do with any bright powder mon given good enough rng. It’s like running focus band and getting the 10% rng every time you get hit so your mon can never be knocked out. Hardly banworthy
It did come into play though. Sand Veil was the main reason I was able to muscle past the Mandibuzz, which would have easily killed me if not for missing twice. Without those misses, the opponent isn't forced to sack like 3 mons to try and lower my attack enough to revenge me.

I just think having 100% accurate moves go immediately to 67% in sandstorm is inherently uncompetitive.
 

Kyotoshi

Going Against God
is a Tiering Contributor
It did come into play though. Sand Veil was the main reason I was able to muscle past the Mandibuzz, which would have easily killed me if not for missing twice. Without those misses, the opponent isn't forced to sack like 3 mons to try and lower my attack enough to revenge me.

I just think having 100% accurate moves go immediately to 67% in sandstorm is inherently uncompetitive.
Life orb garchomp could have KO'd mandibuzz at +2 with stone edge anyway. Banking completely on rng to dodge attacks and create setup opportunities is not a good strategy whatsoever. If you really want to rng your opponents that badly then run a life orb garchomp with sand veil. Running a wack item like bright powder is a complete waste when Garchomp relies on life orb to secure KO's at +2 vs Clefable, Mandibuzz, Rillaboom, Zapdos and a bunch of other mons. It's just watering down the standard Garchomp set for the hell of it
 
I keep seeing the 67% number come up for sand veil and brightpowder, what am I missing?

Isn't it 1*0.8*0.9 = 72% to hit for 100% accurate moves? How do people even reach the 0.67 number?

Either way, personally, I don't see this set as particularly noteworthy. Annoying and dumb for sure, but nothing particularly different from jirachi flinching you 5868 times in a row, hurricane confusion, crits happening at the most opportune times or whatever other bullshit happens sometimes. It's just Pokemon being Pokemon, and unless it becomes really disgusting (ie: Moody) I don't really see any reason to be particularly appaled by that specific kind of RNG rather than all the other ones.
 
the fact a good what feels like 150 mons are viable are way more problematic
I know this is somewhat out of context, but may you elaborate further? personally i find it better when I dont know what to bring because so many options are open, and not 30-40 role compressed monoliths.
 
I keep seeing the 67% number come up for sand veil and brightpowder, what am I missing?

Isn't it 1*0.8*0.9 = 72% to hit for 100% accurate moves? How do people even reach the 0.67 number?

Either way, personally, I don't see this set as particularly noteworthy. Annoying and dumb for sure, but nothing particularly different from jirachi flinching you 5868 times in a row, hurricane confusion, crits happening at the most opportune times or whatever other bullshit happens sometimes. It's just Pokemon being Pokemon, and unless it becomes really disgusting (ie: Moody) I don't really see any reason to be particularly appaled by that specific kind of RNG rather than all the other ones.
I believe the calculation is 1*0.75*0.9 = 67.5%
 
It did come into play though. Sand Veil was the main reason I was able to muscle past the Mandibuzz, which would have easily killed me if not for missing twice. Without those misses, the opponent isn't forced to sack like 3 mons to try and lower my attack enough to revenge me.
It wasn't just the miss; you also needed the luck of getting enough scale shot hits on said Mandibuzz to 2HKO it (a total of 7 hits, about 44% unless my math is off), and also to hit both necessary scale shots. Taking that neutral situation in isolation (i.e. non-subbed Garchomp in foul play range vs full HP mandibuzz), that's ~44% to 2HKO, * 81% to hit both scale shots * 28% for a foul play miss = ~10% - an insanely lucky situation to be sure. Pokemon is pokemon, and I really don't believe the odds were stacked unfairly in your favour here by you using this set; while getting lucky as a setup pokemon as scary as Garchomp is a big deal, there's still a solid number of viable pokemon that wall this set with even less chance of failure than physdef Mandibuzz's incredibly small chance (steelbirds, bulu, fairies in grassy terrain).
Also, sand veil confers a 20% accuracy penalty, not 25%.
Edit: made a mistake, maths even worse than i thought lol
Edit again: im bad at math
 
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Katy

You should know I'm never gonna change!
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Hey y'all,

I wanna talk about :Urshifu:-S, since it got brought up earlier in this thread and I think it's important to get different point of views on it.
So first of all a quick view on it, Urshifu-S has sure a centralizing effect on the metagame, which also counts for Pokemon like the currently suspected Pheromosa, the ghosty-horse Spectrier, and also to a lesser degree Magearna. But Urshifu-S is no different in centralizing the metagame to some degree, especially with Future-Port-Support, due to Slowbro and the less used Slowking, but it can also profit and benefit of Galar-Slowkings Future-Sight (allthough it has no Teleport, but its Future-Sight stuff still pressures a ton of the counterplay to Urshifu-S).

Urshifu-S is a strong wallbreaker, capable of using an insane ability in Unseen Fist, which all contacts moves go through Protect. Its great typing in dark/fighting helps it a lot to capitalize from its potential, as this typecombination is really great in the current metagame, with not many Pokemon being able to wall the dual-stabs + its coverage-options. With a great HP, and Defense-stat being both 100 and its amazing Attack-stat of 130 and its great Speed-tier being 97, it has the stats to be a threatening Wallbreaker as well. Furthermore it has different Sets, which it can use, be it Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Bulk Up, all its sets put in some work, and with the foremer two it can easily get Momentum via U-turn and with the latter it can become a dangerous breaker with Wicked Blow, Close Combat / Drain Punch, and Sucker Punch.

:Urshifu: (Single-Strike) Sets:

Urshifu @ Choice Band / @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Poison Jab / Iron Head

Urshifu @ Black Glasses / @ Life Orb

Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch​

these Set-options are the main-sets currently in the metagame and have different counterplay options, but first off, let's dive in into a more in-depth view about these two sets:

Choice Band / Choice Scarf: This set really hits hard,e specially in concjunction with Choice Band, Wicked Blow-spam is really free in the current metagame and hits baring physically defensive Clefable and physically defensive Tapu Fini everything else pretty hard. Choice Band-sets can further Urshifus wallbreaking potential due to the already very good and optimal Attack-stat. Choice Scarf, however, can be also a Set-option, due to how many Pokemon it threatens, due to the Speed-control this set gives, being able to outrun a vast majority of the metagame with a Scarf is pretty functionally and good. It can outrun faster threats such as CB-Pheromosa, Spectrier, Tapu Koko, offensive Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, Barraskewda (without rain), and Scarf-Lando-T. Both sets have the ability to run either Poison Jab or Iron Head to dish out a lot of damage on the aforementioned Clefable and Tapu Fini, especially coupled with a Choice Band. What really helps these both sets is the support, due to Future-Sight and Teleport from Slowbro as it can wear down the typical Checks to Urshifu and Urshifu can get past these Checks, with them taking damage from Futre-Sight and a always critting Wicked Blow or its coverage-options.

Bulk Up:
This Set is seen more on hyper Offensive structures, be it Screens, Veil, or Hazard Stack HO, which it can make use of, to get a better position to Bulk Up. Bulk Up-sets have an overlapping counterplay to the Band- or Scarf-Set; physically defensive Clefable and Tapu Fini! Bulk Up-sets tend to run Close Combat more often than Drain Punch, but if you want to keep Urshifu for longer, a strong Drain Punch can help there, which is a nice tool for it. Sucker Punch gives some mind-games, especially when urshifu is already at +1 any player has to be careful around its mind-games made up by Sucker Punch.

I believe all Sets are really dangerous and have their different aspects of running through the metagame without any real drawbacks. Urshifu-S is a Pokemon, which shines more often than not during a battle and while it has its own flaws, the flaws by any means do NOT overshine how good Urshifu is.

But let's move on to another important aspect, the Counterplay to Urshifu!

These are the Pokemon, which can help versus it:
:Clefable:
:Tapu Fini:
:Toxapex:
:Landorus-Therian:
:buzzwole:
:kommo-o:
:togekiss:

These are the best to go with options currently, but the issue is Kommo-o and Togekiss aren't that splashable anymore, and Buzzwole while still being a great option in the current metagame finds itself in a rather weird spot, it can help to tank stuff against Urshifu, but with the above mentioned suppot due to Slowtwins, it gets ehavily pressured by Futre-Sight, more than Clefable and Tapu Fini do. Landorus-Therian can help the best versus Urshifu-S being locked into its fighting-type STAB or its coverage in Poison Jab, however it still doesn't appreciate a struck by Wicked Blow. Toxapex can also help, but this and Clefable as a core have to be physically defensive, or else they see themselves getting 2HKOed by Wocked Blow. Clefable and Toxapex however can profit from great recovery options in Soft Boiled and Recover, and the latter can grant itself longevity due to Regenerator while the former has Magic Guard to stay healthy and unaffected by entry hazards.
Clefable + Toxapex are the best options right now as a counterplay, Tapu Fini is another great Pokemon, which can help versus Urshifu-S. Tapu Fini is tanky enough to switch 3 times with Stealth Rocks up into Urshifus Wicked Blow. however it still gets pressured when multiple layers of entry hazards are up, Spikes or Toxic Spikes.

Closing Words:

While the counterplay doesn't seem bad they all get pressured by different factors, be it entry hazards in the case of Tapu Fini or be it the help from one of the Slowtwins, which can put pressure on Clefable and Toxapex-cores. I feel, it isn't that we lack Pokemon, which can help versus Urshifu-S but with different aspects, be it a support from the Slows, or be it support due to entry hazards, that counterplay gets limited.
And I can see why people talk about Urshifu-S and that this topic is a heat one. It isn't that we lack the number of Pokemon, but they could get limited during the course over the game to check Urshifu-S effectively. I would say, we still should keep a close eye on it, especially after the Pheromosa suspect is over. I feel Urshifu-S, Spectrier, and Magearna are all Pokemon, we have to keep in mind, when building a team, but also in the general aspect of the current metagame and how they cenetralize the metagame in the future.

Thanks for reading and I hope y'all have a great day!
 
First, Ocelzolt is just plain scary. It has insane speed under sand and most common teams cannot deal with its Dragon/Ground/Fire coverage combined with the sheer power of Bolt Beak. (And I get to say "I told you so!" to everyone that disagreed with me when DLC2 was just new)

Well, time to redirect the discussion with my promised Kyurem post!

1607779779620.png


OBLITERATOR (Kyurem) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast / Earth Power​

This is the definition of a nuke. Choice Specs Modest Draco Meteor manages to be stronger than Tapu Lele, one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier. This alone gives Kyurem quite a nice niche. But one of Kyurem's best selling points as a wallbreaker is that most teams are not prepared for it. For starters, some of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier are water- or flying-types, which Kyurem can easily abuse. Most flying-types gets owned by Ice Beam while Pex and Slowbro gets demolished by Freeze-Dry. On top of that, Blissey gets 2HKOed by Focus Blast after minimal chip. Blissey, I beg you. And almost anything that doesn't resist Dragon gets wiped right off the map by the sheer power of a Draco Meteor. This makes Kyurem a great anti-meta threat, as most common Pokemon and archetypes can't find proper ways to deal with it. Rain have insane trouble with this, as Freeze-Dry alone can often crush 2/3 of their team. Also, going down the viability rankings, the highest ranked mon that can take a hit from the Focus Blast variant (besides AV Mage) is... Aegislash, at B rank, which gets 2HKOed by Earth Power. And I'm not even bother trying to find a mon that can take all five of Kyurem's moves. In case you are wondering though, everything that is above C+ that is not wearing an Assult Vest (and most stuff that is) cannot take a hit given Kyurem picks the correct move. Sure, sometimes they can take a Draco Meteor and heal as Kyurem is forced to switch due to the SpA drop, but that is pretty much forced, and any random teammate can just come in. In the present metagame, Kyurem is an amazing anti-meta breaker, and with the correct prediction it can often get a kill or a gigantic dent whenever it comes in.

Finally, if you are at low ladder, use this. The noobs down there will not see a Freeze-Dry coming on their water-types.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 348-410 (88.3 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 266-314 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Magearna: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (no Magearna runs this anymore but this just shows how strong Kyurem is)

Finally, I would like to speak a bit about Zapdos. Zapdos in rain is yet another mon that most teams aren't prepared for. Having two powerful STABs and a pseudo-STAB in Weather Ball in rain is often too much for opposing teams to swallow. And again, most common defensive Pokemon (besides Blissey, lol) cannot properly deal with Zapdos. So we have the holy trinity of anti-meta destruction: Sand Rush Dracozolt, Specs Kyurem, and Zapdos in rain. No one are prepared for them, and they are bound to create destruction wherever they go.

As I said, despite its flaws, weather is gonna be pretty good.

Edit: after going down the VR, this is the full list of viable Pokemon in the VR that can take a hit:
AV Magearna, Shuckle, Shedninja (lol), Grimmsnarl after Prankster Light Screen, Max SpD AV Slowking-G, end list
Let that sink in, folks.
 
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Fumes, Sand Veil + Bright Power Garchomp is something I've actually looked into. I haven't used it nearly enough as I've been looking into more niche OU sets, and more recently, NU sets. Anyways, the combination of these two items leaves 100% accuracy moves down to a whopping 67.5%. It's pretty impressive assuming its left undisturbed. However, this set-up is just too easy to be ruined to be considered as competitive instead of a more direct offense. I mean, Hone Claws pokemon, while not as apparent, still do remain in the tier. However, as I was told about one of my sets, you still have to consider the niche. Although, this set can more directly be ruined by weather changers. Drizzle Pelipper is quite often run, and Defog users can lower your evasion. You also have to consider Knock Off users that will get rid of your Bright Powder, Skill Swap and Entrainment users that may erase your Sand Veil, and that your Sandstorm is still temporary. Since there are too many ways to ruin this set, I don't see it to be as viable as a straightforward offensive Garchomp, although that may just be my opinion.
Who uses hone claws / skill swap /entrainment anyway.
 
1: I was told to consider the niche, I believe in this same thread. So, if I have to ignore that just because we're dealing with a different person, that ain't right.

2: You ignored Knock off, Drizzle, Defog, and Sandstorm being temporary. :/
 
Fumes, Sand Veil + Bright Power Garchomp is something I've actually looked into. I haven't used it nearly enough as I've been looking into more niche OU sets, and more recently, NU sets. Anyways, the combination of these two items leaves 100% accuracy moves down to a whopping 67.5%. It's pretty impressive assuming its left undisturbed. However, this set-up is just too easy to be ruined to be considered as competitive instead of a more direct offense. I mean, Hone Claws pokemon, while not as apparent, still do remain in the tier. However, as I was told about one of my sets, you still have to consider the niche. Although, this set can more directly be ruined by weather changers. Drizzle Pelipper is quite often run, and Defog users can lower your evasion. You also have to consider Knock Off users that will get rid of your Bright Powder, Skill Swap and Entrainment users that may erase your Sand Veil, and that your Sandstorm is still temporary. Since there are too many ways to ruin this set, I don't see it to be as viable as a straightforward offensive Garchomp, although that may just be my opinion.
You know what, you're right. To counter sand veil chomp, I'm going to start running this garchomp set:

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Rush
- Earthquake

Nothing better than needing 2 set up turns to do anything against evasion, it's a very fair and balanced mechanic :)
 

KJ Corp

~ fish wind vane ~
Hey, wanted to share some cool sets I think should see more usage to spice up the meta :)

To preface, I'm sure most people who stick their nose in the OU meta know of the infamous "Team 20" in the craing team archive. This is a team that has seen much usage in tournaments as well as ladder, unfortunately losing pretty much every time (besides Finchinator vs SOULWIND) ...

This is partially due to lack of surprise factor. Trapper Urshifu-R can't do it's job as a Pex lure, because Ushifu-R already being a rarity on non rain teams AND paired with a Suicune is too easy a giveaway.
Additionally, it doesn't even do a great job at killing Pex, it can get scald burnt and have it's pads knocked off and lose the 1v1.... So, overall using this thing is a huge L.

It got me thinking if there are any other cool trappers to use that aren't terrible at their job like Ursh-R and not boring as block+spite Pex, and it led me to something quite useful in a lot more situations than every other luremon (i think):


:ss/cinderace:
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Electro Ball
- Fire Spin
- Taunt
- Gunk Shot/High Jump Kick/Pyro Ball/U-turn/Super Fang

Trapper Cinderace
is likely the best lure-and-trap pokemon available rn. It's very easy to pretend you're a standard Cinderace set just waiting to be walled by a bulky water type. I really want to see some creative teams that take advantage of this in many ways.

Fire spin+taunt is pretty standard as far as trapping goes. Taunt on Cinder is really cool because it outspeeds most of the tier and prevents set up from things that would otherwise wall the lure set.
Electro ball is the move that blasts away bulky water types as well as some other fat "cinder checks" such as defensive moltres and Torkoal. Being an unexpected Toarkoal and Pelipper killer in 1 is p nice, as those mons love to stay in especially at full health. You don't even need to trap Peli, uninvested electro ball 1hkoes.
The last move is up to player preference, and it's usually a move regular Cinderace would run. Gunk is good for hitting fairies hard which is why it's my most used choice, HJK hits Garchomp and Heatran which usually take the place of bulky waters on teams without them, super fang+fast taunt is nice but revealing it alerts the opponent you're not a standard Cinderace.

Meta relevant Pokemon you can lure and eliminate with this: :toxapex: :slowbro: :slowking: :pelipper: :torkoal: :moltres: :weezing-galar: as well as other big ones depending on your 4th move.

High ladder replays: (1800-2000 elo):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242372774-v59psrhu7piwr8g8f3kuah066p5epalpw Pex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242322435-jdy2eupqn7mqpb5ip8wg3lwu2522bp7pw destroying rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242352616-sopsbd2gpji61gn0crrgnf1ezok80a0pw Slowbro
Bonus: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242913645-q6lcz3x3c0oj8ohjd74x921scdx9qeepw poor ox ;-;

Now to something quite underrated:

:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion @ Choice Band/Life Orb/Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance/Toxic/Iron Head


Terrakion is one of the best abusers of Future Sight as it destroys common futureport stops like Mandibuzz and has bulk and typing to not leave it vulnerable to death or 4x effective moves in situations where a player is willing to trade their clef for a Shifu/Mosa.
Eq and SD are moves that really allow it to tear the common defensive cores of today's teams to shreds. Also toxic on band sets for Slowbro/Tang. Justified makes Urshifu players at least think twice before clicking the braindead-move.

It definitely has competition at the moment (from 2 mons that might get banned), but it sure has a niche. No replays but trust me it's good. Cheers :smogduck:
 
One of the most interesting developments in this DLC2 meta to me is the evolution of Cinderace's moveset. Before its initial ban in DLC1 I firmly believed Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn was the best set, and probably the most commonly ran. You would have had to work hard to convince me to run any other set as it was such a good catch all to most defensive cores in the metagame. However, with new mons to beat this DLC the preferred set has seemed to change. Based off my experiences it feels like Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch has taken over as the most prominent set in the metagame. This is pretty wild to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly not having the ability to threaten Toxapex with Zen Headbutt is less than ideal to me. Also not utilizing U-turn to grab momentum while abusing Heavy Duty Boots just feels like a loss when it comes to opportunity cost. That said I can see the merit, since not being walled by Heatran, and having priority to help vs offensive threats like Spectrier in a metagame with more speedy Pokemon in general than DLC1 is practical.

Other sets like trapper Cinderace have even received mention, but most other sets fail to find the consistent usage and success as the one I mentioned earlier. Seeing this trend I obviously wanted to build a team that would utilize this Cinderace set while making up for its faults: lack of options vs Toxapex, and no ability to grab momentum through pivoting.


The first step was to find a way to deal with Toxapex reliably. I remembered a post by Finchinator earlier on in the thread that mentioned a Heatran set that ran both Lava Pume and Magma Storm as a way to lure in and trap Toxapex over the course of a game. Thought that would be a cool partner to start with as it helps with the problem at hand. Next I went with Slowking as I prioritized finding a Water resist to go with my Fire types, and FuturePort provided the team with another way to create situations to threaten Toxapex. Next I added Landorus-T who gave my team an Electric immunity, Ground immunity, some speed control as I went with Scarf. The pick also helps with the momentum issue. Between Teleport Slowking, U-turn on Lando, and even Magma Storm on Heatran the team does a fairly good job of keeping up momentum. Nothing to special about the EVs, still trying to find a good spread for bulky scarf sets. The only thing I'm really attached to is the speed which beats Jolly/Timid Mosa. Technically it only needs 204 to do so but that would leave it with 295 speed, and I don't like the idea of a speed tying Nidoking if Lando gets Knocked Off so I run 208. Like always Clefable is a top notch glue mon that provides the team with a lot of utility like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Fairy typing, Urshifu check, and other Clef things. Hydreigon was my last as it helps me not lose to Spectrier at preview, provides another Ground immunity (most of the time), and helps check Heatran since it would be easy for Slowking to get overloaded vs a team with Nidoking and Heatran. I threw this team together pretty quickly and only played a few games with it, but I like it thus far. At the very least it's a solid start I'll probably tinker with a bit more over time. Feel like it does a pretty good job of showing options that can help facilitate the Cinderace set.

I'm sure a new Cinderace set will be taking over the meta a few months from now, as Protean/Libero sets have proved to be extremely adaptive. I would encourage anyone looking at Cinderace to try out new techs, just make sure to acknowledge any shortcomings the set may have and build accordingly.
 
Personally like Pyro, Sucker, Zen, Bulk Up on Ace right now with stuff to wear down whatever this doesnt target well like Ursh-R to take care of Heatran. I feel like people for the most part have stopped switching Gunk Shot recipients except Slowbro into Ace and lot of Pex still roaming around. I've played around with other things like Life Orb and Adamant if not both together there's a lot of dimensions and ways you can utilize Ace for a team as noted above.
 
One of the most interesting developments in this DLC2 meta to me is the evolution of Cinderace's moveset. Before its initial ban in DLC1 I firmly believed Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn was the best set, and probably the most commonly ran. You would have had to work hard to convince me to run any other set as it was such a good catch all to most defensive cores in the metagame. However, with new mons to beat this DLC the preferred set has seemed to change. Based off my experiences it feels like Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / High Jump Kick / Sucker Punch has taken over as the most prominent set in the metagame. This is pretty wild to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly not having the ability to threaten Toxapex with Zen Headbutt is less than ideal to me. Also not utilizing U-turn to grab momentum while abusing Heavy Duty Boots just feels like a loss when it comes to opportunity cost. That said I can see the merit, since not being walled by Heatran, and having priority to help vs offensive threats like Spectrier in a metagame with more speedy Pokemon in general than DLC1 is practical.

Other sets like trapper Cinderace have even received mention, but most other sets fail to find the consistent usage and success as the one I mentioned earlier. Seeing this trend I obviously wanted to build a team that would utilize this Cinderace set while making up for its faults: lack of options vs Toxapex, and no ability to grab momentum through pivoting.


The first step was to find a way to deal with Toxapex reliably. I remembered a post by Finchinator earlier on in the thread that mentioned a Heatran set that ran both Lava Pume and Magma Storm as a way to lure in and trap Toxapex over the course of a game. Thought that would be a cool partner to start with as it helps with the problem at hand. Next I went with Slowking as I prioritized finding a Water resist to go with my Fire types, and FuturePort provided the team with another way to create situations to threaten Toxapex. Next I added Landorus-T who gave my team an Electric immunity, Ground immunity, some speed control as I went with Scarf. The pick also helps with the momentum issue. Between Teleport Slowking, U-turn on Lando, and even Magma Storm on Heatran the team does a fairly good job of keeping up momentum. Nothing to special about the EVs, still trying to find a good spread for bulky scarf sets. The only thing I'm really attached to is the speed which beats Jolly/Timid Mosa. Technically it only needs 204 to do so but that would leave it with 295 speed, and I don't like the idea of a speed tying Nidoking if Lando gets Knocked Off so I run 208. Like always Clefable is a top notch glue mon that provides the team with a lot of utility like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Fairy typing, Urshifu check, and other Clef things. Hydreigon was my last as it helps me not lose to Spectrier at preview, provides another Ground immunity (most of the time), and helps check Heatran since it would be easy for Slowking to get overloaded vs a team with Nidoking and Heatran. I threw this team together pretty quickly and only played a few games with it, but I like it thus far. At the very least it's a solid start I'll probably tinker with a bit more over time. Feel like it does a pretty good job of showing options that can help facilitate the Cinderace set.

I'm sure a new Cinderace set will be taking over the meta a few months from now, as Protean/Libero sets have proved to be extremely adaptive. I would encourage anyone looking at Cinderace to try out new techs, just make sure to acknowledge any shortcomings the set may have and build accordingly.
Something else worthy of mention is a set I have been using a lot recently. U-turn/Pyro Ball/HJK/Court Change is a really strong Pivot and a great way to disrupt the ever present screens HO archetype. It's not always super safe to have Ace sit in on a potential threat and click Court Change, but it does alleviate a lot of the worry one might have when the opponent starts stacking hazards. It is also quite fast, so something like a suicide lead Mew, for example, has no way of preventing the hazard swap.
 
First, Ocelzolt is just plain scary. It has insane speed under sand and most common teams cannot deal with its Dragon/Ground/Fire coverage combined with the sheer power of Bolt Beak. (And I get to say "I told you so!" to everyone that disagreed with me when DLC2 was just new)

Well, time to redirect the discussion with my promised Kyurem post!

View attachment 299232

OBLITERATOR (Kyurem) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast / Earth Power​

This is the definition of a nuke. Choice Specs Modest Draco Meteor manages to be stronger than Tapu Lele, one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier. This alone gives Kyurem quite a nice niche. But one of Kyurem's best selling points as a wallbreaker is that most teams are not prepared for it. For starters, some of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier are water- or flying-types, which Kyurem can easily abuse. Most flying-types gets owned by Ice Beam while Pex and Slowbro gets demolished by Freeze-Dry. On top of that, Blissey gets 2HKOed by Focus Blast after minimal chip. Blissey, I beg you. And almost anything that doesn't resist Dragon gets wiped right off the map by the sheer power of a Draco Meteor. This makes Kyurem a great anti-meta threat, as most common Pokemon and archetypes can't find proper ways to deal with it. Rain have insane trouble with this, as Freeze-Dry alone can often crush 2/3 of their team. Also, going down the viability rankings, the highest ranked mon that can take a hit from the Focus Blast variant (besides AV Mage) is... Aegislash, at B rank, which gets 2HKOed by Earth Power. And I'm not even bother trying to find a mon that can take all five of Kyurem's moves. In case you are wondering though, everything that is above C+ that is not wearing an Assult Vest (and most stuff that is) cannot take a hit given Kyurem picks the correct move. Sure, sometimes they can take a Draco Meteor and heal as Kyurem is forced to switch due to the SpA drop, but that is pretty much forced, and any random teammate can just come in. In the present metagame, Kyurem is an amazing anti-meta breaker, and with the correct prediction it can often get a kill or a gigantic dent whenever it comes in.

Finally, if you are at low ladder, use this. The noobs down there will not see a Freeze-Dry coming on their water-types.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 348-410 (88.3 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 266-314 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Magearna: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (no Magearna runs this anymore but this just shows how strong Kyurem is)

Finally, I would like to speak a bit about Zapdos. Zapdos in rain is yet another mon that most teams aren't prepared for. Having two powerful STABs and a pseudo-STAB in Weather Ball in rain is often too much for opposing teams to swallow. And again, most common defensive Pokemon (besides Blissey, lol) cannot properly deal with Zapdos. So we have the holy trinity of anti-meta destruction: Sand Rush Dracozolt, Specs Kyurem, and Zapdos in rain. No one are prepared for them, and they are bound to create destruction wherever they go.

As I said, despite its flaws, weather is gonna be pretty good.

Edit: after going down the VR, this is the full list of viable Pokemon in the VR that can take a hit:
AV Magearna, Shuckle, Shedninja (lol), Grimmsnarl after Prankster Light Screen, Max SpD AV Slowking-G, end list
Let that sink in, folks.
I've used kyurem quite a bit but i've realised that focus blast and earth power are usually better than draco is most cases i've had as i've stated in my old post
So lately I've seen how a lot of people don't really use kyurem and kyurem is actually a great mon.
It has 5 main sets that i've seen on the ss ou ladder near the 1400-1900 areas
1. Sub Roost-
sub roost freeze dry earth power is a great set which counters common threats like heatran pex offesnive mag and most of rain while having quite abit of longivity with the new HEAVY DUTY BOOTS and Roost. the pressure ability is also very helpful.
2.Specs-
although this is kyurems best set [imo] not most of sets run this and even the ppl who use it imo use the ]wrong sets [imo] The best set according to me IS Freeze Dry Ice Beam Focus Blast and Earth Power
most specs kyurem run draco which isnt rly important for it [again only imo] while freeze dry hits water types ice beam is a more POWERFUL move when waters are gone or weakened .
Earth power can hit heatran magearna ttar the newly amazing ou mon slowking witch galar and melmetal when u cant risk a miss.
Focus Blast is there to ohko ttar 2hko blissey ohko heatran 2hko av melm with focus blast into earth power on the next switch
A LOT OF CALCS
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 224 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 306-360 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 316-374 (81.8 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 476-564 (123.3 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 195-229 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

3.Scarf- scarf kyurem is a great revenge killer with a speed of something like 475 idk and a great base special attack its quite a good scarfer on rain weak teams with freeze dry ice beam draco and focus blast.
4.Sub Roost v2- thiz was one of the most spammed dlc1 sets with freeze dry as its special move and icicle spear to kill physically weak mons. This was a pp staller set.
5.DD Kyurem- this is the worst set kyurem uses imo but it works on quite a few teams from what ive heard. This is a pp stalling offensive Kyurem that uses sub roost dd icicle spear.
Thank you for looking at this post and I hope ive done unova icy boi justice. Feel free to pm me for any questions. SAM OUT ! PS: Ttar is tyranitar and imo=in my opinion
Although I do agree about sand zolt being a huge threat as its only main counters if im correct are are spdef swampert and spdef hippo and u could actually use kyurem sand [I already made a few teams with that lol] very effectively although you stated that zapdos could only be beat by blissey tyrainitar is also a good zap check [as weather ball becomes rock] so maybe rain with single strike shifu could be good ? idek so anyways back to the kyurem topic. Although kyurem is sadly weak to rocks you could obviously just use boots but since specs has more damage you'l need hazard control. I've realised that if on sand or maybe even if not on sand excadrill works pretty well with earthquake iron head rapid spin and toxic and it can decimate all of the kyurem "checks". SAM OUT
 

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