Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)


Like most people, I've got my fair share of grievances with the current meta as it is right now; that said however, I believe it still has potential to be a really great meta. I think a good way to describe this gen of OU in comparison to the recent few would be 'pure', since the Dynamax ban there's been no gimmicks, there's no tack-on nuke Z-Moves and no convenient cover-all Hidden Power to crutch on while building, and while in one way that makes things more formulaic under certain circumstances, I think it has potential to lead to lead to more creativity in the use of lures and bait breakers/support. There's still a lot I dislike about the tier right now, and a lot of things I think are being slept on as well as trends I think could emerge or remain, I'll cover those too.

Lures, baits, and breakers:


Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
Koko's around lately more as a Screens pivot for the most part I'd seen, but I think its Specs set deserves more credit than it's getting. The absence of Hidden Power hit it quite hard with its lack of ability to spam a consistent anti-Ground coverage to catch its Electric immune checks with HP Ice or to remove a particular annoying Durian with HP Fire. That said, while the aforementioned durian is still a wall for Koko, Grounds are still not as safe as they'd like to believe with Grass Knot being able to catch Hippo, Gastro, Swampert and such for the O/2HKO and Specs Gleam catching Chomp and all variants of Lando-T for the 2HKO. Losing HP Ice may make them feel more comfortable to switch in, but it is capable of dealing substantial damage to all of these checks.
Partners include the obvious Regieleki who appreciates these threats also removed. Supported on a 'heavy offence' HO structure with a series of other breakers to continue to bait and overwhelm these mons like Cinderace, Magearna, Melm, Nidoking etc make for a solid E-Spam squad. Sand teams also appreciate this set for obvious reasons, being able to chip your Sand Rush sweeper's checks is the main focus of any typical Sand BO team, but not only Exca is your main beneficiary now, but Zolt as well who struggles with these same checks (E-Terrain boosted Bolt Beaks are also terrifying).


Magnezone @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 Def / 116 SpA / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Substitute
A potential partner to the above Specs Koko, as well as common Ferro and Corv lures like Rillaboom and Lando-T, ID Press Zone is still a mon that has great potential. While Metal birds' usages are on the vast decline, Ferro is a very solid pick in the meta to cover a lot of threats including Fini, Lando, Magearna, Melm, and others. We also play in a meta where contact chip is one of the best ways to force progress vs opposing breakers and Ferro is a phenomenal option for that. It's very safe to say that a tool specifically designed to remove the annoying durian is a boon to a lot of teams, and with so many mons, new and old, free to lure it in and pivot off of it into Zone make it very effective in its ability to do so. On heavy offence structures it also serves as a great way to force damage on things like Tran, Melm, and possibly Magearna; in spite of the fact that it will likely lose the 1v1, being able to guarantee chip on those threats could go a very long way towards cracking an opposing team.
Partners include the previously mentioned Rillaboom, Koko, and Lando for reasons mentioned before. Sand balances also appreciate its ability to remove these pesky Excadrill checks. Shift Gear Magearna also loves having its Steel walls forcibly squashed to allow for a clean sweep late game.


Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Crunch
- Ice Beam / Fire Blast
With the return of Lando and Chomp and the rise of Ferro, T-Tar now once again has reason to tack on its special lure. Fuck, if you're a real man then you can run full Specs and run them both plus Hydro Pump to catch Hippo too, but my balls are too small to recommend that. There's really nothing to explain here besides this should pretty much be on every T-Tar, it's a perfect bait for those mons and Sand Rush partners would absolutely love them gone or hurt.


Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam / Flamethrower / Thunderbolt
- Substitute
Nidoking's been an underrated mon for gens now, but with Hidden Power being gone people would really appreciate a cover-all breaker that just has the potential to kill everything. You don't know what you've got to answer this thing with without a lot of scouting first, and that means it puts a lot of pressure on teams that don't have a certain pink fat thing on them. It can serve as a very convenient glue breaker you can tack on to fill your offensive shortfalls.


Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere / Mystical Fire / Surf
- Roost
Latios is incredibly underrated and more people should be using it. Gaining fantastic coverage that covers for the absence of Hidden Power, it's at least as capable a breaker as it used to be. Trick Specs was my choice early meta but I've really fallen for the flexibility of Life Orb Roost, allowing for potentially greater longevity and the ability to switch up moves making it less prediction-reliant and more versatile for only a minor trade-off in power is awesome, though being able to cripple pink things with Trick is quite nice too. It works on a lot of team structures from balance to heavy offence and can deal a lot of damage to checks it lures in to allow your chosen sweeper to clean effectively.
Spectrier loves this thing with its ability to lure in T-Tar and catch it with the Aura Sphere, while also being able to do solid damage to Heatran, Ferro, and Melm similarly. Magearna and possibly CM Clef also appreciate the ability to bait and hit fat Steels. Urshifu is also a great partner given how they cover each others' checks 1v1 with the exception of Clef who they can easily overwhelm together.


Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
Gengar is another mon that doesn't really have any checks. I've got Sub Plot up there as an example, but LO Plot three attacks with Sludge Wave and/or Thunderbolt is a great option too, as is Specs. It's being somewhat overlooked as the premier Ghost type right now is obviously broken Spectrier, but unlike the rejected MLP villain Gengar actually has coverage which allows it to function much better as a mid-game breaker in comparison to Spect's usefulness as a late-game sweeper. Focus Blast and T-Bolt allow it to lure and catch its checks such as T-Tar or Mandi, Sub allows it to play around with Urshifu's Sucker Punch mind games or turn Bliss into set up fodder, and if you're really feeling saucy you can try a Destiny Bond trapper set to guarantee the removal of your opponent's Ghost check, but that's more hilarious that actually practical most of the time.
Partners can include pretty much everything as, similar to Nidoking, pretty much every team values the idea of a breaker that can kill whatever you want to kill. In particular I'd like to re-emphasise Spectrier, as Gengar already has the ability to overwhelm the average Ghost check, what better to make use of that than the ultimate Ghost sweeper? Another pairing for heavy offence HO.


Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch
Melm is one of those mons that has the ability to select its checks, and while it's absolutely no longer the broken hulk it used to be in the pre-DLC meta, it's still a fantastic breaker. Rock Slide is not all that common on Melm lately, and that's kind of understandable with Heatom being almost out of the picture right now and Slide's lack of overall coverage in comparison to the Elemental Punches, but it does have a particular usefulness vs some certain Kantonian pains in the ass. Contact status birds are a cheap way of dealing with a lot of physical breakers, Melm included, so what better way to handle them than ensuring the OHKO, or at least massive damage with Rock Slide without having to risk making your Melm useless after?
This is more of a specific slot as opposed to a blanket coverage slot like the Elemental Punches would be, so most likely you'd want this to support another breaker who struggles with these birds such as Rillaboom and Kartana. These birds are also responsible for the rapid decline in U-Turn viability, which means prediction-reliance in games has gone back up compared to the DLC1 days where you could just chain 5 U-Turners and a Rocker together. That being considered, pivots like Lando-T and Cinderace who suffer greatly from the adverse affects of contact status would love their chance to start clicking U-Turn back as soon as possible.


Clefable @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock
- Trick
- Soft-Boiled
In a meta where Fu, Spect, Mage, and Ace are all insane low risk high reward monsters, there's very reason not to run a set which enables these things even more while offering other near mandatory supportive functions as well. Clef is already on a sickening amount of teams because it kinda has to be, so giving it the ability to force turn by turn chip on things it lures in such as Pex, Bliss, and fat Steels in order to limit their abilities to check the likes of the aforementioned broken threats is a no-brainer. No, seriously, it's pretty brain-dead.


Landorus-Therian (M) @ Power Herb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
This one is one that I think is a bit more ahead of its time, but I've had faith that this will eventually become a staple pick, and I still have faith that it will soon! Discount Supersonic Sky Strike functions in basically the same way as before, luring in fat Grasses and Buzzwole and taking them out, though forced to run SD to get the OHKO on Tang now.
Supporting Sand sweepers and Rillabooms on Sand BO and heavy offence will be its premier usage, and with its general raw power it'll fit great as a supportive breaker on both those archetypes. Get it while it's hot.

Sleeper picks:


I covered this above so I'll just briefly re-emphasise. This thing's dual STAB destroys most things and its last coverage slot can cover the rest, selectable by team support. It supports common breakers and sweepers on balance and BO teams as well as offering great offensive synergy on heavy offence structures. It shouldn't not be used.


Also mentioned above, due to the abundance of Ferro that need killing and Rillaboom that need supporting, Zone needs more usage. And hey, its Analytic set still has the ability to break through all of its checks over time. I think it's criminal that this mon is UU. As a supporting trapper I think it has a firm place in OU, and as the busted risk-free breakers of the tier go to Ubers jail Analytic Zone will go from being a niche pick to a top contender for offensive support very soon. Make no mistake that it's still potent now though regardless of competition.


Similar to Zone above, these things are also a potent overlooked breakers. The best checks are good predictions, on paper they probably 6-0s most of your builds. They face stiff competition from the premier threats right now but you can make them work with the right support to get them in and out safely and often and mind my words if you're ignoring them now, you won't be later.


People are starting to use Crawdaunt more and that's a good thing, this thing on Rain, on HO, on whatever will always get you mileage. People are drinking the Banded juice right now, but I'm still personally a fan of SD. SD RillaDaunt is a very potent pairing with dual priority, disgusting power, and ability to overwhelm that still holds up.


I've talked a lot about heavy offence, but Thundy-I could have a lot of merit on more Lead/Breaker/Breaker/Utility/Speed/Sweeper type HO structures as a viable T-Wave pivot. Late towards the end of DLC1, HO teams started to run Sub T-Wave Pult and with good reason, having a fast T-Waver is a great way to ensure your offence successfully outpaces opposing offensive structures and supports, a Prankster T-Waver is an awesome option to do just that. Packing Focus Blasts for the immune Darks and being able to pivot off Electric immunities to safely bring in breakers like Daunt and Rilla, potentially giving them a free set up opportunity, I think could be invaluable. I've yet to experiment with this one, but I really see merit here. Perhaps Sub Plot could be a viable fat breaker in future too with the right support, but that might be a stretch without Hidden Power.

Shit I hate:



I'm not gonna beat these dead horses. They're busted out the ass and should be suspected as soon as convenient. I have no case to make that no one else hasn't already made, I'm just adding my name to the list.


Fuck me if these things didn't turn into the most annoying turds in the tier while not actually being broken. Rocky Helmet could be added to the list at this point too cuz everyone and their mothers are throwing that on everything now. Contact chip has made pivot support more of a liability than a support now, and it's simply no longer efficient to chain together pivots to take the prediction reliance out of some games anymore, or at least it's not so simple to do so anymore. Premier U-Turners like Lando-T, Rillaboom, Urshifu, and maybe Cinderace are now typically best without the move, and I think that's a big pain to Lando in particular, I would not be surprised at all to see Protective Pads being standardised in the near future (I've seen bulky Pads Rillaboom too, but let's not go there). In one way you can say it's a good thing that brainless pivot-spam is finally being punished, but with cheap RNG based low-risk high-reward strats it feels like the pendulum swinging the other way. I don't think anything can be done about this besides Pads and caution, but I really hate these.

Trends and predictions:
I've spoken a lot about 'heavy offence' throughout this post, and I really do think its an important thing to consider in today's meta. Balance and BO is incredibly formulaic as there's only such a fine line you can walk on to try and effectively cover the main beasts of the tier both offensively and defensively. The big four of Fu, Spect, Mage, and Ace are all so potent and require very specific things to keep them in check, add to that how potent they are together and you've got a team of 50% broken shit an 50% trying to check broken shit. I feel like with these things still loose that resorting to the extremes is an appropriate option right now; either go full stall to cover them all defensively or full HO to overwhelm things offensively. I'm not big on stall simply because with the potency of Fu+Future Sight, the splashability of Magma trap Tran, Taunt CM Fini, and the like, and the rise of hazard stacking, stall is just under way too much pressure to consistently perform. HO on the other hand has a myriad of breakers and sweepers to choose from who each posses great offensive utilities and can be strung together to overwhelm common structures without too much hassle. I think now is a good time to run an offensive team if you're bored of the 20 balance teams in your builder that all look the same.
I also predict in the near future that Sand BO will make a triumphant return. The upper echelons of the viability rankings show little in the ways of Ground resists or immunities and they do have the tools needed to achieve what they want to achieve. I think the fear of Rillaboom and Rain, while legitimate, is somewhat blown out of proportion and teams can still accommodate these without too much compromise in other areas. That said, when the number of things to prep for declines after subsequent suspect tests there's gonna be little excuse not to have some Sand in your builder.

Merry Christmas.
 

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Crunch
- Ice Beam / Fire Blast
With the return of Lando and Chomp and the rise of Ferro, T-Tar now once again has reason to tack on its special lure. Fuck, if you're a real man then you can run full Specs and run them both plus Hydro Pump to catch Hippo too, but my balls are too small to recommend that. There's really nothing to explain here besides this should pretty much be on every T-Tar, it's a perfect bait for those mons and Sand Rush partners would absolutely love them gone or hurt.
I think most Tyranitar on Sand BO should run Toxic. Excadrill and Ocelzolt are the premier sand abusers atm, and both struggle with Spdef Hippowdon and Physdef Pert. Tyranitar's toxic is a great way of softening them up so Excadrill can OHKO Hippo and Pert with +2 eq and Dracozolt can 2HKO both with Draco Meteor.
 
not suggesting anything just curious
are there any defensive mons that are either oppressive, centralizing, or constrict team building?
and if any of these defensive mons were removed would that lessen the hole left by removing something like urshifu?
look at this as 2 separate questions not a 2 part question.
 
not suggesting anything just curious
are there any defensive mons that are either oppressive, centralizing, or constrict team building?
and if any of these defensive mons were removed would that lessen the hole left by removing something like urshifu?
look at this as 2 separate questions not a 2 part question.
I don't have an immediate answer for your actual question, but I think Urshifu being banned would actually make the tier more offensive, rather than defensive. A broken breaker getting kicked out frees up a lot more room for balance and less bulky playstyles, cuz you no longer need to run, for example, Clefable, Toxapex, or Amoonguss on every team to beat Urshifu. HO and more offensively-oriented playstyles are only bound to improve with bans.

I think Toxapex could be suspect-worthy after all the other broken shit, though. At least, I've seen a lot of people complain about it.
 
not suggesting anything just curious
are there any defensive mons that are either oppressive, centralizing, or constrict team building?
and if any of these defensive mons were removed would that lessen the hole left by removing something like urshifu?
look at this as 2 separate questions not a 2 part question.
Toxapex was broken in DLC1. If the meta returns to something similar to that in the future we may look at a possible Pex suspect.
 
I think Toxapex could be suspect-worthy after all the other broken shit, though. At least, I've seen a lot of people complain about it.
You know, I was gonna make a really lengthy post about how Toxapex is a horribly balanced affront to game design, but to be honest, Spectrier and Urshifu might actually be worse. I really like breaking down game design choices, so might as well attempt to make it relevant to the conversation!
Sure, Pex can choose what it beats and has Knock Off for no reason except you suck, but Spectrier, too, can customize its sets to beat whatever it needs to. Some people even use Dark Pulse (which is very much not optimal) on the substitute set so it doesn’t get blanked by Chansey. Like, you think you have a hard stop to it, but then it blanks you instead of what should happen, which is the opposite. Its movepool sucks, which should be its fatal flaw (I remember everyone was making fun of it when the stats got leaked), but instead, it has pretty much all the tools it needs to beat whatever it must.
Urshifu isn’t really like that. It uses Close Combat, Wicked Blow, two other moves, you’re good now ok go win. It has good-but-not-incredible stats and a typing that historically should be TERRIBLE in OU, but who cares? Wicked Blow and Close Combat are strong enough that OU’s army of resists can’t stand in the way of them. Its other moves can kind of be chosen based on what you need for your team and whether you want to kill Clefable with cold iron or a toxic punch. Urshifu isn’t a mon that can be perfectly tailored to suit the unique needs of YOUR team, but when you have all of its bullshit, that doesn’t really matter, does it?
Basically, looking at them on paper, Spectrier and Urshifu have glaring problems that should make them easy to take care of even if you’re not specifically prepared to beat them. In fact, looking at past OU trends, Urshifu sounds like it should be crippled by its typing, and Spectrier certainly would be were Pursuit still in the game (Ghosts used to suck lol). Yet in practice, these “flaws” do not hinder them in the slightest and are merely an annoyance when building teams with them. I think so anyway, I don’t play very often nowadays and I’m not very high on the ladder so
 
You know, I was gonna make a really lengthy post about how Toxapex is a horribly balanced affront to game design, but to be honest, Spectrier and Urshifu might actually be worse. I really like breaking down game design choices, so might as well attempt to make it relevant to the conversation!
Sure, Pex can choose what it beats and has Knock Off for no reason except you suck, but Spectrier, too, can customize its sets to beat whatever it needs to. Some people even use Dark Pulse (which is very much not optimal) on the substitute set so it doesn’t get blanked by Chansey. Like, you think you have a hard stop to it, but then it blanks you instead of what should happen, which is the opposite. Its movepool sucks, which should be its fatal flaw (I remember everyone was making fun of it when the stats got leaked), but instead, it has pretty much all the tools it needs to beat whatever it must.
Urshifu isn’t really like that. It uses Close Combat, Wicked Blow, two other moves, you’re good now ok go win. It has good-but-not-incredible stats and a typing that historically should be TERRIBLE in OU, but who cares? Wicked Blow and Close Combat are strong enough that OU’s army of resists can’t stand in the way of them. Its other moves can kind of be chosen based on what you need for your team and whether you want to kill Clefable with cold iron or a toxic punch. Urshifu isn’t a mon that can be perfectly tailored to suit the unique needs of YOUR team, but when you have all of its bullshit, that doesn’t really matter, does it?
Basically, looking at them on paper, Spectrier and Urshifu have glaring problems that should make them easy to take care of even if you’re not specifically prepared to beat them. In fact, looking at past OU trends, Urshifu sounds like it should be crippled by its typing, and Spectrier certainly would be were Pursuit still in the game (Ghosts used to suck lol). Yet in practice, these “flaws” do not hinder them in the slightest and are merely an annoyance when building teams with them. I think so anyway, I don’t play very often nowadays and I’m not very high on the ladder so
Yea, specifically I really hate the movepool design for Spectrier. Looking at Spectrier's stats and ability it's broken, so they tried to "nerf" it by giving it a hilariously limited movepool (which they didn't really accomplish). This just turns an obviously broken mon into a still broken but not so obvious mon. These mons can blow through teams without the proper counterplay. Remember Regieleki? Modest Specs 2HKOs 0- speed Chansey after rocks with Electro Ball. The whole idea of "It's not broken because you can just use mon A, B, or C" really just clogs up the whole process. Had Spectrier gotten Moonblast we would all be done with this thing months ago but because they decided to "balance" it it's still clogging up our system as we speak. Of course, the same could be said for any newly released broken mon (poor zamazenta-C), so maybe I'm just being a complainer.

What I really wrote about was about how you made it seem like Fighting-Dark is a bad typing. For a long time, especially before fairies, Fighting-Dark was an amazing type combination. Mons like Darkrai and Lucario have used it in the past to great effect. Fairies coming along mandated a third coverage slot but that's 3 moves to hit the entire meta. CAP invented Tomohawk (Fighting-Flying type with intimidate) in part to help with this. Pangoro obviously isn't that good but bad speed, a not-so-great ability (Scrappy when half your stab is dark), and no stab priority, being bullet punch, means it does face a lot of roadblocks.
 
BOOYAH
Time to abuse it before it leaves :D

Honestly though, in my opinion after this suspect, we can slow down the testing for a while. As much as I hate Spectrier, and I do understand why people want Magearna banned, I think time should be given for the meta to settle. Maybe things will change after the suspect (assuming Urshifu's very likely ban), and maybe Spectrier will hopefully be easier to handle. I'm also posting this because I just know that people will be pushing for another suspect the moment this one is over (or even before it is).
 
Honestly though, in my opinion after this suspect, we can slow down the testing for a while. As much as I hate Spectrier, and I do understand why people want Magearna banned, I think time should be given for the meta to settle. Maybe things will change after the suspect (assuming Urshifu's very likely ban), and maybe Spectrier will hopefully be easier to handle. I'm also posting this because I just know that people will be pushing for another suspect the moment this one is over (or even before it is).
I am disagreeing very hard on leaving the metagame "to settle" after Urshifu suspect most likely removes it from the tier. I am not looking forward to dealing with Magearna in OU. (especially behind screens).


About Urshifu, after it gets banned, I'll run the water one. Its underrated anyways (not superior to dark, but still awesome) And yes, I am certain it will get banned. Otherwise more pressing mons would have been first on the chopping block (e.g. Magearna... again, how is this Mon OU again? It can run 3+ valid sets with different checks and can be slapped on every team archetype.)

(also didn't we have a poll? I don't remember Urshifu being on the poll at all)
 
BOOYAH
Time to abuse it before it leaves :D

Honestly though, in my opinion after this suspect, we can slow down the testing for a while. As much as I hate Spectrier, and I do understand why people want Magearna banned, I think time should be given for the meta to settle. Maybe things will change after the suspect (assuming Urshifu's very likely ban), and maybe Spectrier will hopefully be easier to handle. I'm also posting this because I just know that people will be pushing for another suspect the moment this one is over (or even before it is).
If (when) Urshifu-S is gone, the meta will certainly look much different, so I agree with you that we should let it settle. However, I unfortunately can only see Spectrier getting better. The omnipresent Urshifu-S was just another mon preventing it from mindlessly clicking shadowball. Obviously it wasn't the best answer, but Urshifu was definitely on the list of mons Spectrier would rather not see on the opposing team.
 
I am disagreeing very hard on leaving the metagame "to settle" after Urshifu suspect most likely removes it from the tier. I am not looking forward to dealing with Magearna in OU. (especially behind screens).


About Urshifu, after it gets banned, I'll run the water one. Its underrated anyways (not superior to dark, but still awesome) And yes, I am certain it will get banned. Otherwise more pressing mons would have been first on the chopping block (e.g. Magearna... again, how is this Mon OU again? It can run 3+ valid sets with different checks and can be slapped on every team archetype.)

(also didn't we have a poll? I don't remember Urshifu being on the poll at all)
Urshifu-S has a huuge influence on the tier. When it leaves, Clef are free to run Wishport spdef again, Mandi might run exclusively Spdef, and Buzzwole might drop to UU, not to mention how Slowbro's role would change now that the 2 best fighting types are probably gone. We haven't seen something as controlling yet in such an indirect way in a long time.

I mean come on, what does Clef really run Physdef magic guard for. Pheromosa? Urshifu? that's about it.
 

AM

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LCPL Champion
Clef runs Defense for non offensive Lando-T, unboosted Chomp, Lucha, and a handful of other things besides CM variants. There is real application to Clefs running Def> SpDef not just cause Ursh is in the tier granted that's a big reason now.

With that being said I agree with Pokeron the idea of waiting for meta stabilization is a bad idea . Phero was gone and it stabilized being revolved around Ursh, Spec, Mag within like a week and it was already like that when Phero was around just with Phero added on. You're attempting to stabilize a metagame with a bunch of unhealthy and centralizing mons in the tier that are too restricting in the teambuilder and creates extreme matchup problems. I don't buy the idea of letting a meta settle unless you have suspects that at least are questionably broken. You're suspecting stuff that's already hated by the community they're going to hit 70%+ thresholds in a voter account lol.

Granted I don't think it matters much now since a lot of this is dictated in the direction of whatever tours are being run, with SPL coming up. So we'll see then but Im not buying this argument of letting the meta settle since it settles after like 2 weeks into the same old routine anyways.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
we may look at a possible Pex suspect.
knowing how much people like slower, bulkier play styles, I'll believe this when it happens

A bulky ass 150~/140~ defenses on a water/poison, with good ass recovery in regenerator and black sludge, and yet some think it isnt unhealthy.
like, the only good types are electric, psychic, and ground. electric is like, koko and maybe zapdos, so better hope a ground type like the omniking landorus isnt around, nidoking which surged recently, or hippowdon which is rare but sand uses it well so...
psychic is a fucking joke besides future sight right now, and with the copious dark types in urshifu and a good chunk of the DLC1 meta, it wont be tossed around as much.
ground is used by like, landorus and nidoking, but toxapex says fuck you and packs scald, which not only does intimidate not affect, but it can also burn.
The absurd bulk and amount of effort needed in teambuilder to plan around what if this urchin is who im facing against, while having few answers that arent easily dealt with by the team style toxapex commonly associates with, imo, makes it unhealthy at least. im down for a suspect test after the dark bear thing, whenever really.
 
, the only good types are electric, psychic, and ground.
Most Choiced attacks can still break through. Not at all an argument, just wanted to clarify that it isn't unbreakable by the likes of rillaboom. Lots of mons pack ground coverage not only for it, but also for Heatran, such as Melmetal, Hydreigon, and Dragonite. A lot of pokemon also run psychic coverage but that's just for pex :/. You can also break through it with pretty much any invested special attack since Spdef pex isn't a thing atm.

Toxapex isn't as good right now as in DLC1 largely also due to Slowbro, who can afford to lose its boots for a 100% free future sight and teleport. Honestly when building I never think to myself "how am I going to switch into pex" like i did in DLC1, but that may also be partly due to the fact that a Clef is forced on all of my teams for urshifu anyways.

few answers that arent easily dealt with by the team style toxapex commonly associates with
Mons like Glowking, Nidoking, Tapu Lele, Taunt Roost Koko, Taunt Fini (sometimes) Latios, and Magearna are headaches for balance and can all beat Pex.
 
A bulky ass 150~/140~ defenses on a water/poison, with good ass recovery in regenerator and black sludge, and yet some think it isnt unhealthy.
152 and 142 are both big numbers, but pex has 50 base HP; factoring that in, it's not nearly as bulky as people like to believe. Mandibuzz, for example, is even bulkier both physically and specially, has Roost recovery and a great defensive typing, but nobody wants that to be suspected. A pokemon being hard to kill doesn't make it unhealthy. Pure bulk isn't what makes toxapex overbearing; it's the amount of threat it generates via scald burns and toxic spikes, and said bulk increasing the value of those things.
I think in this current meta it's in no way overbearing; there's plenty of things that can deal with it without caring about scald burns too much. Latis, Slowtwins, Magearna, Koko, Lele and Spectrier all spring to mind as things that can easily deal with it offensively, to say nothing of things like Rillaboom and Garchomp that just have to avoid a scald burn. Toxic Spikes also don't end up too overbearing IMO; Poison types like Nidoking, G-King, Amoonguss and other Pexes are all relatively easy to slot onto most teams, and it's pretty common to see teams with only 1 or 2 TSpikes-affected pokemon factoring in boots.
Bottom line is that you'll have to do more than just say it's bulky to convince people of any type of brokenness.
 
the idea that Pex is too hard to break right now is laughable

Urshifu, Cinderace, Spectrier, and Magearna all can easily blow through Toxapex (Band/BU, Electro Ball/Zen, Specs/Wisp, Specs/DD/CM+Thunderbolt respectively), and stuff like Nidoking, Rillaboom, offensive Lando-T, Suicune, Kartana, Tapu Lele, (Specs) Koko, G-Slowking, and more run can easily through Pex.

Scald is really annoying but it's only a 30% chance to burn - those are not favorable odds in a 1v1, which means even the physically oriented threats listed above will beat Pex in the 1v1 assuming they don't come in on a Scald (or Knock Off, depending on the set) on the switch in.
 
the idea that Pex is too hard to break right now is laughable

Urshifu, Cinderace, Spectrier, and Magearna all can easily blow through Toxapex (Band/BU, Electro Ball/Zen, Specs/Wisp, Specs/DD/CM+Thunderbolt respectively), and stuff like Nidoking, Rillaboom, offensive Lando-T, Suicune, Kartana, Tapu Lele, (Specs) Koko, G-Slowking, and more run can easily through Pex.

Scald is really annoying but it's only a 30% chance to burn - those are not favorable odds in a 1v1, which means even the physically oriented threats listed above will beat Pex in the 1v1 assuming they don't come in on a Scald (or Knock Off, depending on the set) on the switch in.
No one is saying that Pex is impossible to win 1v1 against, but the problem is that it is so Hard to make consistent progress in some games due to Pex because it can constantly fish for burns or quickly knock off switch-in's items and Then switch out of unfavorable matchups. Also, if you havent noticed half of the mentioned mons are really good because they break Pex or are only good vs it if they are specifically prepared. Now I am not saying it is the biggest problem in this meta because it is not even close but still after the remaining trio gets banned it could be something to consider I guess
 

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I'm not the biggest fan of Pex and all that, but I think people are just really oversimplifying the ways we have to deal with it, not saying it's totally busted (sadly) but the amount of arguments just completely forgetting about Toxapex's access to Knock Off is astounding.

I mean yeah, you can blow it away with a Choiced user(never in one hit though), but then at full health you can just make it tank stuff like Adamant Banded Rillaboom's Wood Hammer, attack that does a maximum of 80% and Knock its Choice Band away and flee (you'll be at half health after this exchange thanks to Regenerator), next time, Rillaboom's Wood Hammer goes from doing 80% to barely 50%, which Pex can easily recover from, the same stuff applies for a huge amount of offensive mons, as you may notice that they do indeed need their items to even kill Pex reliably, another great example is Urshifu of course:

Goes from doing respectable damage
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
To failing to even 2HKO it, it can literally recover the most of the damage done to it by switching out
252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

No need to mention what happens if Pex gets the "30%" with Scald. Other stuff like Slowking Galar, Nidoking and more sure hate losing their AV/LO too, because while they might still defeat Pex 1v1, they become much easier to deal with for the partners Pex is frequently being accompanied by.
Also, of course, why are we even discussing Toxapex's stats when it's been constantly proven that this thing is very rarely OHKOed by anything in practice?

Again, not saying Pex is incredibly difficult to deal with right now, specially with the Future Sight spam, but I just wanted to illustrate how people are seriously undermining it ITT
 
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I'm not the biggest fan of Pex and all that, but I think people are just really oversimplifying the ways we have to deal with it, not saying it's totally busted (sadly) but the amount of arguments just completely forgetting about Toxapex's access to Knock Off is astounding.

I mean yeah, you can blow it away with a Choiced user(never in one hit though), but then at full health you can just make it tank stuff like Adamant Banded Rillaboom's Wood Hammer, attacks that does a maximum of 80% and Knock its Choice Band away and flee (you'll be at half health after this exchange thanks to Regenerator), next time, Rillaboom's Wood Hammer goes from doing 80% to barely 50%, which it can easily recover from, the same stuff applies for a huge amount of offensive mons, as you may notice that they do indeed need their items to even kill Pex reliably, another great example is Urshifu of course:

Goes from doing respectable damage
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
To failing to even 2HKO it, it can literally recover the most of the damage done to it by switching out
252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

No need to mention what happens if Pex gets the "30%" with Scald. Other stuff like Slowking Galar, Nidoking and more sure hate losing their AV/LO too, because while they might still defeat Pex 1v1, they become much easier to deal with for the partners Pex is frequently being accompanied by.
Also, of course, why are we even discussing Toxapex's stats when it's been constantly proven that this thing is very rarely OHKOed by anything in practice?

Again, not saying Pex is incredibly difficult to deal with right now, specially with the Future Sight spam, but I just wanted to illustrate how people are seriously undermining it ITT
I think another thing that people tend to overlook is how easy it is to cover pex's weaknesses with your team. All three weaknesses (electric, psychic, and ground) all have natural immunities that are easy to add to a team. Lando T and Mandi both cover two of pex's weaknesses in one slot while Pex covers their weaknesses in return. This makes strong neutral hits the better option because of how hard it is to deal chip damage that sticks.
 
No one is saying that Pex is impossible to win 1v1 against, but the problem is that it is so Hard to make consistent progress in some games due to Pex because it can constantly fish for burns or quickly knock off switch-in's items and Then switch out of unfavorable matchups. Also, if you havent noticed half of the mentioned mons are really good because they break Pex or are only good vs it if they are specifically prepared. Now I am not saying it is the biggest problem in this meta because it is not even close but still after the remaining trio gets banned it could be something to consider I guess
I think that's fair, but the increased ease of pivoting stuff in via Teleport, especially in conjunction with Future Sight, make it easier than before to deal with Pex since there's more ways to bring in breakers vs Pex that avoid taking a Knock Off or Scald on the switch in.

Mind you, if the remaining potentially-busteds (Mag, Spectrier for sure will be suspected at some point IMO) leave, Pex might prove to be unhealthy (if not broken) and warrant a suspect.
 
:cinderace:

I would like to talk how ridicolously underrated of a set 4 attacks Cinderace is. I got 33 and 4 in a night thanks to this set + LO Shifu. Running U-Turn is absolutely a waste, like it used to be on Ash Gren back in Gen 7. Pyro Ball, HJK, Sucker and Gunk breaks basically every defensive core around, and to be effective you need all of them at once. The only mon you miss out the 2hko with the aforementioned moves are Zapdos, Moltres, Mandi, Slowbro and Pex. The birds are forced to Roost at every 120 base power STAB move you throw at them, considering each does around 46%: they are a Knock Off away from falling to Cinderace's attacks. Slowbro and Pex are thougher to deal with, but the fact that this mon forces them in can easily be exploited by Ace's teammates with a double.
I cannot overstate how good this mon when paired with Knock off support, with Urshifu being the busted mon that it is, considering how wears everything down and how enjoys Fini getting Gunked, or with Future Sight support demolishing Zapdos, Moltres and Pex.
 
:cinderace:

I would like to talk how ridicolously underrated of a set 4 attacks Cinderace is. I got 33 and 4 in a night thanks to this set + LO Shifu. Running U-Turn is absolutely a waste, like it used to be on Ash Gren back in Gen 7. Pyro Ball, HJK, Sucker and Gunk breaks basically every defensive core around, and to be effective you need all of them at once. The only mon you miss out the 2hko with the aforementioned moves are Zapdos, Moltres, Mandi, Slowbro and Pex. The birds are forced to Roost at every 120 base power STAB move you throw at them, considering each does around 46%: they are a Knock Off away from falling to Cinderace's attacks. Slowbro and Pex are thougher to deal with, but the fact that this mon forces them in can easily be exploited by Ace's teammates with a double.
I cannot overstate how good this mon when paired with Knock off support, with Urshifu being the busted mon that it is, considering how wears everything down and how enjoys Fini getting Gunked, or with Future Sight support demolishing Zapdos, Moltres and Pex.
IMO Adamant + Life Orb on 4 Attacks (non-U-Turn) Cinderace is the way to go - that extra power lets Cinderace just beat the birds outright, and Mandibuzz is threatened with a 2HKO if Gunk Shot poisons (or even if Pyro Ball burns IIRC). Yea the chip is annoying, and losing that speed tier isn't the best, but Adamant LO Sucker Punch is pretty good speed control in and of itself.
 
IMO Adamant + Life Orb on 4 Attacks (non-U-Turn) Cinderace is the way to go - that extra power lets Cinderace just beat the birds outright, and Mandibuzz is threatened with a 2HKO if Gunk Shot poisons (or even if Pyro Ball burns IIRC). Yea the chip is annoying, and losing that speed tier isn't the best, but Adamant LO Sucker Punch is pretty good speed control in and of itself.
That depends wildly on the team. Being Adamant means that you underspeed non scarf Kart, which is a very big threat in general, but if you have the right team (Zapdos/Moltres + secondary grass check) I would agree that Adamant is the way to go. Kart is also the only mon you lose out by going Adamant, considering that you hit 337 speed, which is higher than Chomp (333), the mon immediatly below Kartana if you order the OU tier by Speed.

I don't personally like Orb, considering how common Clef is and how much Ace likes to switch into Moonblasts. HDB are also so ridicolously good on an offensive mon that the added longevity lets it actually do a lot more damage in the longer run. On webs offense or hyper offense in general though, where the turns in which Ace has to deal its damage are much less, I'd agree with you on Orb being very good.
 

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