Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I can click that button and no amount of gentleman's agreement beforehand can prevent my finger from doing it. If you 6v6 me on the Switch with Smogon OU rules I'm gonna Dynamax my +1 Gyarados and there's nothing you can do about it.

While on Showdown cheating like that has been hard coded to not even be possible.
Ok then. What's stops me from not freezing you in cartridge or not critting if I dont want to.
 
What do you guys think of stall in this meta?

I've heard the opinion that stall is bad in this meta very often, but I honestly don't agree. It honestly feels kind of oppressive in the builder to me. Sure it's a big matchup fish, but it seems to have a LOT of favorable matchups. Even FS + Breaker can't reliably beat stall, most of them seem to be favoring Mandibuzz again to come in on things like Cinderace and absorb the FS. "Stallbreaker" Magearna isnt getting through unaware CM clef reliably, and some are even electing to run ditto to reverse sweep. Heatran gets massively annoyed by earthquake Galarian Slowking, Quagsire, defensive Dnite and Hydreigon, and the low Magma Storm PP also really punishes losing 50/50s against stall. I feel like if you don't specifically prep for stall, it's a massive uphill battle.

And when using stall, sure you can win a massive amount of games at matchup alone, but as soon as you run into another bulky team, it just feels helpless. What is even the wincon? Hazards can't do all that much conditioning vs other bulky teams, thanks to boots, regen and magic guard. If you choose to run a breaker and take a more semi stall route, you're overall much more frail against the breakers that matter to such a bulky playstyle, and even then, that breaker might just not be enough to get mileage against other fat teams, depending on the matchup.

On one hand, I think it's incredibly strong at having so many matchup advantages against the typical bulky offense and hyper offense seen on ladder, but it just feels like complete dead weight against other bulky teams. That matchup seems to always end in a draw unless one massively chokes somehow, and even then it's hard to force any progress
As far as i know Stored Power bypasses unaware,besides its not like Clefable can do anything back to magearna really and if you hit it with Flamethrower be careful since some magearnas run Weakness policy
 
As far as i know Stored Power bypasses unaware,besides its not like Clefable can do anything back to magearna really and if you hit it with Flamethrower be careful since some magearnas run Weakness policy
it does not bypass unaware. And a CM boosted unaware clefable can 1v1 magearna and beat it down with moonblast alone.

+6 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (500 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 173-204 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Ok then. What's stops me from not freezing you in cartridge or not critting if I dont want to.
You can't, which is why Smogon clauses are impossible to apply in cartridge. My point is Smogon clauses and rules have never been truly bound by what is possible on the actual game.
 
You can't, which is why Smogon clauses are impossible to apply in cartridge. My point is Smogon clauses and rules have never been truly bound by what is possible on the actual game.
I mean yeah? Smogon is a gentleman's agreement of what IS possible ingame. Ingame you can just not use dynamax. Doesnt mean it's not possible. Unlike Crits or Freeze, dynamax is not an RNG mechanic and can be controlled. If you Dynamax, you broke the gentleman's agreement and is not playing OU rules anymore.
 
it does not bypass unaware. And a CM boosted unaware clefable can 1v1 magearna and beat it down with moonblast alone.

+6 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (500 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 173-204 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In a 1v1 it can defeat Magearna but it can't check it consistenly.Especially in the long run if you rely on Clefable as your magearna check

252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (140 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
 
I mean yeah? Smogon is a gentleman's agreement of what IS possible ingame. Ingame you can just not use dynamax. Doesnt mean it's not possible. Unlike Crits or Freeze, dynamax is not an RNG mechanic and can be controlled. If you Dynamax, you broke the gentleman's agreement and is not playing OU rules anymore.
You're missing my point, and after this I'm going to stop replying because I have nothing else to add and I don't want to get drawn into a back and forth that has nothing to do with the OU discussion. (My fault for bringing it up in the first place)

The guy I originally replied to said certain things can or can not be banned / restricted based off what was possible on cartridge. I replied to him saying that this was almost never the case and Smogon's OU meta has basically never been truly possible to implement on cartridge. What Smogon does or does not ban is more restricted by what the people want, not explicitly how Gamefreak builds their game. Smogon's goal is to balance Pokémon in a way that is as close to the cartridge as possible, but not strictly so.
 
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I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?
 

I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?
I've actually seen Specs with Steel Beam occasionally and it's caught me by surprise each time since I was used to some sort of defensive or physical variant. Steel Beam OHKOs so much of the tier after some small chip.

My poor Mandibuzz got absolutely clowned on.

But honestly, I can see mixed/physical being the de-facto Aegislash sets.
 
I've actually seen Specs with Steel Beam occasionally and it's caught me by surprise each time since I was used to some sort of defensive or physical variant. Steel Beam OHKOs so much of the tier after some small chip.

My poor Mandibuzz got absolutely clowned on.

But honestly, I can see mixed/physical being the de-facto Aegislash sets.
Just for fun I threw together some of the ludicrous damage calcs that Specs Steel Beam is capable of. I know it's 140 base power off Uber level sp attack and you practically kill yourself to do it but even so some of the things this move shit-wrecks is crazy.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-423 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-206 (49.4 - 58.5%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 282-333 (67.3 - 79.4%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana through Light Screen: 236-278 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 282-333 (78.1 - 92.2%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%)

Of course these Pokemon are specially bulky and / or resist it. Something like a Hippowdon or Rillaboom stand no chance of survival. I guess if you want a Pokemon that can click a button and kill itself and you, look no further than Aegislash.
 
Just for fun I threw together some of the ludicrous damage calcs that Specs Steel Beam is capable of. I know it's 140 base power off Uber level sp attack and you practically kill yourself to do it but even so some of the things this move shit-wrecks is crazy.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 358-423 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-206 (49.4 - 58.5%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 282-333 (67.3 - 79.4%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana through Light Screen: 236-278 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 282-333 (78.1 - 92.2%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%)

Of course these Pokemon are specially bulky and / or resist it. Something like a Hippowdon or Rillaboom stand no chance of survival. I guess if you want a Pokemon that can click a button and kill itself and you, look no further than Aegislash.
Imo these calcs should be with Timid, since you want to outspeed standard Heatran so you can Close Combat it twice.
 

I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?
I've mostly been using spell tag and sub toxic aegislash sets. I don't particularly like specs right now, because spell tag can net pretty similar damage while overall easing prediction against stall teams. Beating bulky teams is where I think aegi really shines.


Aegislash @ Spell Tag
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Close Combat
- Toxic

I like toxic over shadow sneak on the spell tag set, because I think putting mandibuzz on a timer is overall more important for aegi. The given spread maximizes aegi's damage output, guarantees that it outspeeds adamant Crawdaunt, and dumps the remaining EVs in HP.

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- King's Shield

sub toxic can overall make a really nice glue against powerful special breakers like specs lele, and sort of specs gear to an extent.

I personally dont like to use other aegi sets besides these ones.
 
Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?
I've been seeing good results with the Sub Toxic set. It can come in on things like Specs Lele or Banded Grassy Glide and proceed to cripple ghost resists on the switch with Toxic and chip everything else down with a strong max attack Shadow Ball. Shadow Ball's 20% SpDef drop chance often forces defensive pivots out too. It's match-up dependent though and doesn't do much some games because of how prevalent Ace, EQ, and Knock Off are currently.
 
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I apologize if this is in the wrong spot, but here is a Pyukumuku set that can be used in gen 7, I'm not sure if gen 8 has leppa berry.


Pyukumuku (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Recycle
- Rest
- Recover


Leppa and Recycle lets it pp stall more walls than one. With Max sp.def it can take on more sp. attackers like Volcarona, Mega Venusaur, Amoongus. Look out for Knock Off, especially from Gliscor, who it can't out-stall without leppa.
 
I apologize if this is in the wrong spot, but here is a Pyukumuku set that can be used in gen 7, I'm not sure if gen 8 has leppa berry.


Pyukumuku (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Recycle
- Rest
- Recover


Leppa and Recycle lets it pp stall more walls than one. With Max sp.def it can take on more sp. attackers like Volcarona, Mega Venusaur, Amoongus. Look out for Knock Off, especially from Gliscor, who it can't out-stall without leppa.
Ah yes, Amoonguss. One of the most broken special breakers in the tier. Also M-Venu and Gliscor aren’t in Sword and Shield so this post is mostly irrelevant.

You can post it here tho
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion-v2.3666135/
 

I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?
If you're a real chad you use head smash banded aegislash to screw over mandibuzz. I use with wish support so it stays healthy to soft check a lot of things. It definitely has a good niche in this meta. Most lele sets can't break it and it beats set-up mag(to a certain extent).
 
:ss/hydreigon:

I've been wanting to use NP Hydreigon again, it seems like such a hard breaker to stop in so many matchups. Has anyone else been using it? What are some nice teammates?
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
:ss/hydreigon:

I've been wanting to use NP Hydreigon again, it seems like such a hard breaker to stop in so many matchups. Has anyone else been using it? What are some nice teammates?
Nasty Plot Hydreigon can indeed work on more offensive teams with Teleport and U-turn support, as it gets it in freely and safely, good teammates are those which can take on the rising Dragapult, and also Cinderace and other faster threats such as Tornadus-T and Garchomp and Kartana.
I think great teammates would be Slowbro, Blissey, Magearna, and Landorus-Therian as they can check the problematic Pokemon Hydreigon struggles with. Corviknight can also help Hydreigon with Garchomp, opposing Landorus-T, and moreover Tapu Lele and it also has U-turn to bring Hydreigon in safely.

An offensive build can also work with Choice Specs Magearna, and Swords Dance Garchomp; or even Cinderace + Zeraora with Hydreigon works as they compliment each other very well and Zeraora sees a surge in usage again and can threaten Dragapult offensively with a strong Knock Off.

These are the teammates I would personally run for supporting Hydreigon and moreover to pressure problematic Pokemon for it.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
:ss/hydreigon:

I've been wanting to use NP Hydreigon again, it seems like such a hard breaker to stop in so many matchups. Has anyone else been using it? What are some nice teammates?
To add on to Katy's answer, Zapdos is an incredible partner for any slow but powerful attackers and Hydreigon is no exception. The u turn spammers like Cinderace or Dragapult are rendered useless for the rest of the battle if they get staticed. If that doesn't work then there's always the threat of random discharges. Ferrothorn is also another great partner due to thunder wave and of course, the ever obknockxious knock off. It is also a reliable paralysis spreader as guys like Cinderace like coming in on it assuming its gonna go for a hazard or leech seed and are hit by a surprise thunder wave. Surprisingly, I barely encounter any thunder wave Ferrothorn

Another one of Hydreigon's main roadblocks is Blissey, which you would need two or three nasty plots just to power thru with draco meteor so someone like Cinderace or Kartana or even magma trap Heatran could work

Finally, poison or steel types are great partners for Hydreigon. One of its biggest issues and something that cannot be dealt with by paralysis is Tapu Koko with dazzling gleam. Galarian Slowking is tremendous for this role as it can also be irritating with its like, near limitless movepool while posing a threat via random poisoning. Scarfers like Landorus Therian and the rare scarf Garchomp can also put in work against Tapu Chicken
 
Hey guys, I was fairly active in playing OU at the start of Crown Tundra, but I dropped off playing a while ago. I wrote the Zapdos analysis and figured I should update it to match with the current metagame. How is Zapdos doing and are its main sets still these?
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Discharge
- Heat Wave/U-Turn

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb/Choice Specs
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Hurricane
- U-turn/Volt Switch
- Roost/Heat Wave/Weather Ball
If there are any new sets that work well please let me know, as well as if there have been any massive shifts in Zapdos' viability in the past couple of months.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
1613428487201.png
Heavy-Duty Boots and the reaction to them:

:cinderace: / :zeraora:

We've seen a lot of pivoting in SPL with the influx of Zeraora, and the all so prominent Cinderace which both wear the good item Heavy-Duty Bots to overcome their weak point in dealing with entry hazards to be able to pivot around more often and in a more reliable way, with the item Heavy-Duty Boots being really good at what they're doing I feel a trend is going forward into adapting to that situation currently.

Pokemon such as :slowbro: don't run their own Heavy-Duty Boots 100% of the time anymore, as they want to punish hard to punish Pokemon such as Cinderace in a way to chip them down with Rocky Helmet, the same could be said about our Bunker-Pokemon, which strikes back in a revenge with carrying Rocky Helmet on its own.

:toxapex: also adapted well to that with punishing Cinderace and with running Baneful Bunker to also punish and cripple Zeraora for the rest of the game. Cinderace and Zeraora are the big ones which carry Heavy-Duty Boots currently, especially on VoltTurn Offense to pressure the opposing team as much as possible. But with Slowbro and Toxapex wearing Rocky Helmet more often currently to punish them is a way to keep them at bay. One would argue that Heavy-Duty Boots might be too much and it was heavily discussed in earlier stages of the game, but with the adaptation to them I feel like there is at least a few countermeasure to these dangerous Pokemon. I am more than curious how the metagame will adapt more to the influx of these fearsome Wallbreakers.

Knock Off users such as Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian and Toxapex can do a great job at removing the opposing teams items, there is also :kartana: surging up in usage in SPL with Knock Off on its blades, to remove items, and it showed it is a great wallbreaker as well, which I want to Highlight especially. Other great Knock Off users include Rillaboom, which I still feel like is one of the best Grass-types out there alongside Tangrowth which makes a comeback recently.

:Tangrowth: is also a great option to punish in different ways with Knock Off and carrying Rocky Helmet simultaniously it is a great Pokemon to keep Zeraora in check and it doesn't stop there; Ground-types like Garchomp and Landorus-Therian getting checked as well, although it lost Hidden Power Ice to reliably check them, but with the defensive set it can easily keep them at bay, which is why I think this Pokemon deserves a special mention as a great Grass-type currently.

Other noteable threats:
:dragapult: ever since Spectrier left, I feel Dragapult is with its natural high Speed tier the premiere Ghost-type again; Choice Specs hits hard and the Hex set is still a promising tool for teams.
:Corviknight: is a great Pokemon with checking Tapu Lele, Garchomp and Landorus-Therian and its assets to U-turn out and getting in a teammate safely is very appreciated currently.
:Tornadus-Therian: is great as a wallbreaker and a pivot, I feel like the defensive set has great measures currently with Knock Off and U-turn giving that Pokemon alongside Heavy-Duty Boots a very great and appreciated role on plenty of teams.
 
what have you guys been using on rain lately? I've been wanting to try it out some more, just looking for some ideas on how to make a really effective rain
 

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