Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[pkmnthebest]

Blaziken has many more offensive and defensive checks than Naganadel did. Even at +1, it's still outsped by Scarfers above its base speed of 80, it's much more vulnerable to common priority like Aqua Jet and Grassy Glide (even with the resist it still gets chunked), it's prone to getting chipped through compounded recoil from Life Orb and Flare Blitz, and it needs to pick what it gets walled by depending on its last move (Protect for initial boost, Stone Edge for Flying-types, Thunderpunch for Water-types) - not to mention that it has hard defensive checks such as Hippowdon and Unaware Clefable no matter what it runs.

It might become problematic down the road if potential bans/tests and metagame trends favor it too well, but I'm confident in saying that the chicken is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I absolutely forgot about hippowdown as blaziken's check, indeed it is a fantastic check, it resists pretty comfortably to a +2 flare blitz and revenge kill blaziken, hippodown is also a great wall in general.
I doesn't agree about unaware clefable though, adamant LO flare blitz still 2HKO it especially with hazard/status up, not a check at all on my personal book.

Naganadel was a bit different from blaziken I agree, as you stated it was less susceptible to priority and its defensive typing was better, its coverage was better, it could put huge pressure too with hazards, better speed tier without relying on protect or waiting a turn.
Naganadel was simply a better special blaziken, I don't understand the complains about the QB.

 

[Gomi]

How reliably does it wall physical attackers with that setup when you don't get a flame body burn? Ive been loving Moltres in this meta, but Ive been using a setup with bold nature and significant def evs and significantly less speed. I haven't really experimented much with different spreads though and have just been rolling with the generic one I started with. I'd be interested with trying different options.

The main issue with using Moltres as a physical wall is that alot of things it wants to check hit it WAY too hard or completely cripple it with Knock Off, so beyond like Pheromosa, Blaziken, non gunk Cinder, Excadrill, or a Melm locked into DiB, it really struggles to consistently switch into anything with its numerous weaknesses and relatively average bulk with max invest. Because of that, I figured I'd focus on the valuable specially defensive traits it possesses, as even stuff like Dnite that you could argue it checks ok with massive physdef invest, aren't harmed by it beyond flame body, and the mons I listed earlier don't really require investment to beat.
its really better to use it as a mixed tank that can scare out most threats you need it to while being relatively annoying to switch into, rather than a tank that sits there and fishes for status, similar to Zapdos.

 

[Perish Song]

Let's talk about the one Pokemon I enjoy using too much, and I will hopefully encourage some of you to use it;

This thing is absolutely ridiculous, so why you should use this thing?

1) Buffed up Chandelure.

This should be your #1 reason to test Blacephalon if you ever used Chandelure before. Blacephalon is superior to Chandelure in EVERY aspect. Some of their qualities stay the same, such as identical typing and movesets, but Blacephalon is a lot faster than Chandelure and hits harder. Blacephalon's ability also enables snowballing potential by boosting, and the only advantage Chandelure has is Infiltrator, to kill stuff behind Substitute.

2) Excellent Offensive Capabilities

Blacephalon comes with Fire/Ghost typing, which doesn't have many defensive answers. Besides some dedicated Special Tanks such as Blissey and Tyranitar, there is almost nothing that can switch into its STABS without taking above 50%, or it's some risky prediction they don't want to take. Having ridiculously high offensive stats and a STAB combination that is unresisted by the great majority of the tier, Blacephalon is just very fun to use. While yielding a Choice Specs, all you have to do is to pivot around for this thing then click a few moves.

Having Fire STAB as its disposal can also be seen as what makes this Pokemon par with Spectrier. Spectrier seems to be the trend of the meta right now with its insane Speed stat, but as all of you know its coverage is lacking therefore blocked by many Ghost resists in the tier. This is not the case with the Blacephalon as you can blast through every Dark-type besides Tyranitar. Even Hydreigon doesn't appreciate taking a Specs Fire Blast from Blacephalon, as it 2HKOes it.

3) Trick / Knock Off

Since it is enough for Blacephalon to only run its STABs to be effective, the 4th slot can be dedicated to the utility. In the absence of Mega's and Z-moves, these two moves have proven themselves to be quite effective as we have seen from DLC1 meta. Blacephalon has access to both these moves. You may ask what Knock Off does, it's simply allowing you to maintain your status as a fearsome breaker while removing items from the aforementioned checks. A Tyranitar lacking Rest and Leftovers can only switch in a few times so these moves offer long-term solutions to some of its already limited checks.

 

[DaRkRaii]

Here's a core I like to call "I dream of a stable metagame":
Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flip Turn
- Earthquake
- Body Press

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn
- Brave Bird

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect

The amount of synergy these three have is great. Pert counters Eleki for Corvi and beats Poison-types for Clef while also setting Rocks, Corvi counters Rillaboom for Pert and walls opposing Steels for Clef while also keeping opposing rocks off the field, and Clef keeps Pert healthy with Wish and absorbs status for Corvi. And did I mention all three have a slow pivoting move they can use to bring the others in safely?

If it weren't for all the broken shit that can pretty much brute-force their way past it (looking at you, Zygarde), this would likely be a top core in the meta. As it stands now, it's just... good.

So, I saw this core and decided to use it myself but changed Magic Guard to Unaware. This handles pretty much everything I played last night. Had no troubles with Kyu-B or anything in between. Zygarde was kind of annoying, but Clef stopped any set ups because of Unaware and forced it out with Moonblast. And it's an incredible healer with Wish.

 

[Sensemaker]

So, I saw this core and decided to use it myself but changed Magic Guard to Unaware. This handles pretty much everything I played last night. Had no troubles with Kyu-B or anything in between. Zygarde was kind of annoying, but Clef stopped any set ups because of Unaware and forced it out with Moonblast. And it's an incredible healer with Wish.

You could possibly even run boots to bluff Magic Guard to potentially dissuade status. Of course, the con is over as soon as they're knocked off, weather chip, leech, etc... but still worthwhile to consider I'd say.

 

[Katy]

​

While I see Melmetal as one of the least broken additions to the tier, it is still worrysome, what this poke is capable of, especially with its choice band-set. This pokemon does insane damage with Double Iron Bash and it is capable of 2HKOing if not OHKOing the vast majority of the tier bar Zapdos, Corviknight, full phys def Toxapex, Celesteela, Skarmory, and a defensive Landorus-Therian.

Moreover it has amazing coverage with Earthquake to catch incoming enemies, Thunder Punch to heavily damage the aforementioned Corviknight, Toxapex, Celesteela, and Skarmory. It can also pack Superpower or Ice Punch as its last slot, Superpower to break through other bulky steels and Ice Punch to catch bulky grounds like Landorus-Therian.

Its ability should not be underestimated either as this strengthens Melmetals breaking power with boosting not only its STAB move in Double Iron Bash but also most of its coverage-options.
I think Melmetal is really worrysome as there aren't enough Pokemon, which can switch into Melmetals STAB and/or Coverage options comfortably.

To add onto this, people where already considering an Acid Armor + Body Press-Set, which is in its own right a troublesome Set to deal with, especially when it's ran behind Dual Screens / Aurora Veil, as it furthers Melmetals bulk even more making revengekilling it harder.

I think as soon as the Metagame calms down, It is a good thing to keep a close eye on Melmetal, as this Pokemon can be troublesome in its own right.

 

[SlickHippo99]

Let's talk about the one Pokemon I enjoy using too much, and I will hopefully encourage some of you to use it;

This thing is absolutely ridiculous, so why you should use this thing?

1) Buffed up Chandelure.

This should be your #1 reason to test Blacephalon if you ever used Chandelure before. Blacephalon is superior to Chandelure in EVERY aspect. Some of their qualities stay the same, such as identical typing and movesets, but Blacephalon is a lot faster than Chandelure and hits harder. Blacephalon's ability also enables snowballing potential by boosting, and the only advantage Chandelure has is Infiltrator, to kill stuff behind Substitute.

2) Excellent Offensive Capabilities

Blacephalon comes with Fire/Ghost typing, which doesn't have many defensive answers. Besides some dedicated Special Tanks such as Blissey and Tyranitar, there is almost nothing that can switch into its STABS without taking above 50%, or it's some risky prediction they don't want to take. Having ridiculously high offensive stats and a STAB combination that is unresisted by the great majority of the tier, Blacephalon is just very fun to use. While yielding a Choice Specs, all you have to do is to pivot around for this thing then click a few moves.

Having Fire STAB as its disposal can also be seen as what makes this Pokemon par with Spectrier. Spectrier seems to be the trend of the meta right now with its insane Speed stat, but as all of you know its coverage is lacking therefore blocked by many Ghost resists in the tier. This is not the case with the Blacephalon as you can blast through every Dark-type besides Tyranitar. Even Hydreigon doesn't appreciate taking a Specs Fire Blast from Blacephalon, as it 2HKOes it.

3) Trick / Knock Off

Since it is enough for Blacephalon to only run its STABs to be effective, the 4th slot can be dedicated to the utility. In the absence of Mega's and Z-moves, these two moves have proven themselves to be quite effective as we have seen from DLC1 meta. Blacephalon has access to both these moves. You may ask what Knock Off does, it's simply allowing you to maintain your status as a fearsome breaker while removing items from the aforementioned checks. A Tyranitar lacking Rest and Leftovers can only switch in a few times so these moves offer long-term solutions to some of its already limited checks.

Would definitely like to second this as I've been using Blacephalon a lot too. Specs Blacephalon is super scary, but Scarf can also be a great late-game cleaning option. With all the crazy threats in the meta right now, checks like Heatran, Swampert, and Tyranitar are stretched pretty thin, making them easy to wear down for a Blacephalon sweep. Scarf also serves as a solid check to Pheromosa, especially if it lacks Drill Run/Throat Chop, and Pokemon choiced into fighting moves (like Zapdos-G). I've had a lot of success pairing it with Aura Sphere/Earthquake LO Latios to lure in Heatran and Tyranitar and KO or weaken them for Blacephalon. Give it a try if you haven't!

 

[CoolMan6001]

Blacephalon is superior to Chandelure in EVERY aspect.

Not to be that guy, but Chandelure has Energy Ball for coverage, so Blacephalon has inferior coverage.

 

[majority]

1) Threat?
I see Xurkitree being one of the biggest threats here once the metagame settles down. 178 base SpA, makes me say, "GF, There was no reason to make something insane like this, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE????" This pokemon doesnt get any bad stats in return, like we think Pheromosa did because of it's insane speed and good SpA and Atk. This Pokemon does alot of damage, and can literally destroy things here. It is also another pokemon that we use to destroy the insane almighty Toxapex. Because it lost Tail Glow and HP Ice, that's pretty much why it is pretty okay this gen, but I still think it is a threat to keep a distance from.

2) What does it really beat and how is it any different from Regieleki?

Zapdos, Moltres, Articuno, and the galarian versions, Corviknight, Toxapex (full phys def invested), Clefable, Celesteela, Skarmory, all say "gg" once it meets this guy. Landorus, both formes, check this thing however due to bad coverage like Regieleki, but what makes this thing different it is...well, It isnt as frail as Regieleki. Regieleki has 50 base Def and SpD? That is the main difference between Regieleki and Xurkitree. The 2nd main difference is the ability, Beast Boost and Transistor, my Main reason why I prefer Xurkitree over that frail mon. And when you have a pokemon on your team, that is broken in a specific stat, with Beast Boost, I promise you your opponent will be wondering..Why the fk is {insert beast boost pokemon} not banned yet? I bet you will be having so much fun watching your opponent suffer before your eyes against a very good pokemon. Just gonna point out that, Xurkitree's chance of getting banned isn't too high.

3) Other Potiential Sets?

CM Xurkitree, Charge Xurkitree, or Charge Beam Xurkitree, or even Magnet Rise Xurkitree, making Lando-T nothing to it, (not Lando-I as well).
Too lazy to send you the sets, but im sure you could probably make them yourselves, dont expect alot of things from someone else, so you could just take it. (That is a LESSON)


​

 

[DaRkRaii]

​

While I see Melmetal as one of the least broken additions to the tier, it is still worrysome, what this poke is capable of, especially with its choice band-set. This pokemon does insane damage with Double Iron Bash and it is capable of 2HKOing if not OHKOing the vast majority of the tier bar Zapdos, Corviknight, full phys def Toxapex, Celesteela, Skarmory, and a defensive Landorus-Therian.

Moreover it has amazing coverage with Earthquake to catch incoming enemies, Thunder Punch to heavily damage the aforementioned Corviknight, Toxapex, Celesteela, and Skarmory. It can also pack Superpower or Ice Punch as its last slot, Superpower to break through other bulky steels and Ice Punch to catch bulky grounds like Landorus-Therian.

Its ability should not be underestimated either as this strengthens Melmetals breaking power with boosting not only its STAB move in Double Iron Bash but also most of its coverage-options.
I think Melmetal is really worrysome as there aren't enough Pokemon, which can switch into Melmetals STAB and/or Coverage options comfortably.

To add onto this, people where already considering an Acid Armor + Body Press-Set, which is in its own right a troublesome Set to deal with, especially when it's ran behind Dual Screens / Aurora Veil, as it furthers Melmetals bulk even more making revengekilling it harder.

I think as soon as the Metagame calms down, It is a good thing to keep a close eye on Melmetal, as this Pokemon can be troublesome in its own right.

On the team I spoke about above, one of my wincons was subDD Kyu-B. I was having trouble with Melmetal overall. It laughs off even boosted hits and sub means nothing to Double Iron Bash. I think, once the meta calms down (only one I can see being banned right now is Lando-I), we are going to see a lot of Zygarde and Melmetal usage.

 

[658Greninja]

1) Threat?
I see Xurkitree being one of the biggest threats here once the metagame settles down. 178 base SpA, makes me say, "GF, There was no reason to make something insane like this, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE????" This pokemon doesnt get any bad stats in return, like we think Pheromosa did because of it's insane speed and good SpA and Atk. This Pokemon does alot of damage, and can literally destroy things here. It is also another pokemon that we use to destroy the insane almighty Toxapex. Because it lost Tail Glow and HP Ice, that's pretty much why it is pretty okay this gen, but I still think it is a threat to keep a distance from.

2) What does it really beat and how is it any different from Regieleki?

Zapdos, Moltres, Articuno, and the galarian versions, Corviknight, Toxapex (full phys def invested), Clefable, Celesteela, Skarmory, all say "gg" once it meets this guy. Landorus, both formes, check this thing however due to bad coverage like Regieleki, but what makes this thing different it is...well, It isnt as frail as Regieleki. Regieleki has 50 base Def and SpD? That is the main difference between Regieleki and Xurkitree. The 2nd main difference is the ability, Beast Boost and Transistor, my Main reason why I prefer Xurkitree over that frail mon. And when you have a pokemon on your team, that is broken in a specific stat, with Beast Boost, I promise you your opponent will be wondering..Why the fk is {insert beast boost pokemon} not banned yet? I bet you will be having so much fun watching your opponent suffer before your eyes against a very good pokemon. Just gonna point out that, Xurkitree's chance of getting banned isn't too high.

3) Other Potiential Sets?

CM Xurkitree, Charge Xurkitree, or Charge Beam Xurkitree, or even Magnet Rise Xurkitree, making Lando-T nothing to it, (not Lando-I as well).
Too lazy to send you the sets, but im sure you could probably make them yourselves, dont expect alot of things from someone else, so you could just take it. (That is a LESSON)


​

Xurkitree isn’t bad, but I think your overestimating it as a top threat in fact Xurk is arguably worse than in its debut gen. Despite the slightly lower power level, Xurk lost HP Ice which let it hit Lando, Gliscor, and bulky grasses last gen. On top of that it also lost Z-Hypnosis which gave it the smallest of niches in OU. Xurk faces as much competition as last gen. Koko has more utility and higher speed, Zapdos has defog and better bulk, Regieleki doesn’t have coverage, but it’s the fastest mon in the tier while being close to having Xurk’s damage output, even Toxtricity can hit Lando and bulky grasses while having the typing to switch into Clef and Pex. Xurk is too slow and frail to make a surge in OU, if it makes it to the vr it will be at best, C+/C.

 

[STEELDRAGON]

1) Threat?
I see Xurkitree being one of the biggest threats here once the metagame settles down. 178 base SpA, makes me say, "GF, There was no reason to make something insane like this, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE????" This pokemon doesnt get any bad stats in return, like we think Pheromosa did because of it's insane speed and good SpA and Atk. This Pokemon does alot of damage, and can literally destroy things here. It is also another pokemon that we use to destroy the insane almighty Toxapex. Because it lost Tail Glow and HP Ice, that's pretty much why it is pretty okay this gen, but I still think it is a threat to keep a distance from.

2) What does it really beat and how is it any different from Regieleki?

Zapdos, Moltres, Articuno, and the galarian versions, Corviknight, Toxapex (full phys def invested), Clefable, Celesteela, Skarmory, all say "gg" once it meets this guy. Landorus, both formes, check this thing however due to bad coverage like Regieleki, but what makes this thing different it is...well, It isnt as frail as Regieleki. Regieleki has 50 base Def and SpD? That is the main difference between Regieleki and Xurkitree. The 2nd main difference is the ability, Beast Boost and Transistor, my Main reason why I prefer Xurkitree over that frail mon. And when you have a pokemon on your team, that is broken in a specific stat, with Beast Boost, I promise you your opponent will be wondering..Why the fk is {insert beast boost pokemon} not banned yet? I bet you will be having so much fun watching your opponent suffer before your eyes against a very good pokemon. Just gonna point out that, Xurkitree's chance of getting banned isn't too high.

3) Other Potiential Sets?

CM Xurkitree, Charge Xurkitree, or Charge Beam Xurkitree, or even Magnet Rise Xurkitree, making Lando-T nothing to it, (not Lando-I as well).
Too lazy to send you the sets, but im sure you could probably make them yourselves, dont expect alot of things from someone else, so you could just take it. (That is a LESSON)


​

No I don't see Xurkitree as huge threat in the current metagame. The loss of Tail Glow and some other things certainly have made it a lot less viable. Make no mistake about though it still has some things over the other electric types primarily its insane special attack and its ability. I think the main set will be a Choice scarf set as it outspeeds everything except Regieleki and once you get rid of the ground types can snowball out of control quickly. It also gets Energy Ball/Grass Knot and Dazzling Gleam for coverage which hit many electric resists very hard. I honestly don't see Xurkitree staying in the tier though.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Hello, felt like now that Genesect and Naganadel are banned, I could give some thoughts and fun stuff I've built with so far as well as what's good and or broken right now. Feel free to tag if you want to start a discussion or correct me if I overlooked something.

is really nice right now. It makes a nice glue with an Assault Vest that lets you maintain offensive pressure while being a decent pivot against most things, namely Latios, Kyurem-B, TornT, and Lele (I'll link the sets below at the end). Choice Band also recently got a feature in the samples (can be found here) and Finchinator did well with it in a recent live (can be watched here), showing it still has some versatility even if it's slight. Personally, I don't think it's very broken right now, considering CB is easy to revenge kill with things like Tornadus-T with Focus Blast, Pheremosa, Landorus-I, and Heatran thanks to that set's lack of special bulk and recovery. Meanwhile, AV and sets like it can be pivoted around well enough since Steel resists+coverage resistant stuff that revenge kills are a pretty common team structure (from what I've made and seen) along with the lack of the power boost. Maybe my opinion will change, but there are much more pressing matters atm. Like...

is absolutely disgusting and I'm honestly kind of surprised it didn't get a quickban (This isn't a slight at the council or anything for the record, I'm just genuinely surprised). Glare + Sub + Coil is such a nasty set, and makes Zyg really hard to deal with if you lack Tangrowth, Slowbro, Clefable, and the like (assuming you don't get Glare cheesed). It can win games by itself if gets the Sub up on one of the many things that can't break it (Blissey, LandoT if +1, Heatran, Toxapex, Slowking, etc) and still puts in a ton of work even if it doesn't autowin. While this set is easily the most devastating in my opinion, Sub DD Toxic is also a set I've experimented with (with and without Tspikes) and it's also really good, being able to more effectively cripple Tangrowth, Slowbro, and Swampert while beating the common switch-ins for Toxic (Spikes) like Toxapex, Corviknight, and Heatran. The removal of HP Ice and Zyg's bulk staying really damn high naturally really makes this thing a nightmare for many teams to handle, even if they carry one of its few hard "counters". While many Pokemon can take 1 or more hits on common bulky offenses (Melmetal, Pheremosa, Slowtwins, Latios, Tapus, Landos, etc), Zygarde can easily take at least 1 hit from most of them and or cripple them with Glare / Toxic and proceed to set up with Sub and or DD / Coil. Due to these things and Arrows just being absolutely absurd in general, I think Zygarde should be banned, and based on the fact the majority of the council (wasn't banned due to being not a supermajority) wanted to quickban it, it seems this will be the reality in due time. Also, Choice Band, while not as good as the Coil and DD sets, is still a set worth considering, with Arrows + Toxic covering so much just on their own and having priority and Iron Tail to smack Clefable, Bulu, etc.

is really bonkers with it not competing with Genesect anymore. Its ability to pivot around any bad matchups and being a pretty big headache to the teambuilder, forcing Fairies (some of which lack reliable recovery) as well as Scarfers or priority makes it an out of battle headache. This isn't helped by its absurd coverage (expanded since its last rodeo in OU, even with SwSh additions excluded) and ability to ignore hazards with boots, making chipping it an ordeal and a half in tandem with its absurd speed and U-Turn spam, making it an even bigger nuisance in-game. This isn't even accounting for sets like Choice Band or Specs, while not mindblowing things of versatility, can still be incredibly scary and require scouting, which is hard to do when there's no real indication of what the set will be before without hazards damage (or lack thereof). This is even harder when accounting that even if the set is properly scouted, it's still a huge threat and the risk-reward is much in favor of Pheremosa. I expect it to get a closer examination in a bit once we get some time in a non-Genesect / Naga metagame. I'd hope Zygarde comes before it, however.

is another Pokemon I expect will be banned relatively soon as it's a really ferocious threat to deal with. Earth Power + Focus Blast + Sludge Wave alone is great coverage, and can get you by against pretty much everything. The last slot can be used on rocks with it beating common removers like Fini, unboosted Excadrill, and Zapdos and all the switches being forced letting LandoI get them up. However, it has other great options like Calm Mind to tear through fat even better than it does already, Knock Off removing Leftovers and Boots from pivots like Celesteela and Slowking, Rock Polish on some HO teams (I've seen it on webs moreso) to just jet past offense, and Gravity to just make a prediction with Earth Power and its normal coverage a non-factor. I've used Rocks the most out of all of these, but all the others have great merit and are more than viable. I don't see it as broken as Zygarde since while LandoI's bulk is pretty decent for a wallbreaker of its power and speed, it's not going to let it take on strong attackers, furthered by common Pokemon like Tornadus, Pheremosa, Garchomp, and Latios all outspeeding it due to LandoI's Speed tier being nothing amazing (unlike Pheremosa, which is why I find it easier to check LandoI offensively). This issue is furthered if you run Modest on non-Rock Polish sets to get the muscle to 2HKO more things on the switch, leaving you outpaced by things like Jolly Urshifu and Excadrill. Plus, these faster revenge killers alongside pivots for the moves these Pokemon can't take (Latios / Tornadus + Mag / Melmetal as one example) as well as just hard checks like Slowking make it so you can dance around LandoI more easily than Zygarde or Pheremosa. LandoI is imo quite broken but it has more reasonable in-game counterplay than Zygarde from what I've played and seen.


is pretty slept on right now imo, moreso the choice sets. Specs is still a nice breaker that brings nice defensive and momentum-maintaining utility that isn't very overbearing in the current metagame. I paired it with Glare Zygarde, seeing as Glaring offensive Pokemon makes you more freely throw out Fleur Cannons and take on otherwise good answers like Cinderace and Heatran while Mag pivots into coverage from Pokemon like Latios and takes out or softens up things like Clefable, Tornadus, and Melmetal. It also gets Zygarde in on Heatran and the like with Volt Switch. Meanwhile, Scarf is a more niche but cool set for some offenses that appreciate the "glue" type of niche Scarf fills, being Speed control (outspeeds up to and including TornT) that can pivot around and in on common Pokemon while getting in powerful breakers on forced switches and even catching the opponent off guard. Both sets also are great Trick users in spite of Trick not being quite as amazing to throw out compared to DLC 1. Setup sets are pretty alright on HO as well (they may still be good on other team types too, just haven't experimented with setup sets outside HO) Sets will be linked below.

is pretty cool as a breaker with its great STABs and U-Turn. While its Speed tier is nothing special (furthered by no priority like Urshifu has), this is made up for with decent bulk and the great STAB combo. The typing is pretty alright defensively as well in tandem with the typing, making you able to somewhat pivot on some threats like Landorus and Urshifu. Feel like this Pokemon will see some more experimentation once meta develops a bit more.

is still very good despite the new meta. Scarf and Band, in particular, are really nice, as Scarf is really good against offense while Band does what it did before, which is break through teams with Wicked Blow + CC. It helps that U-Turn makes Urshifu fit well on those offenses that like to keep momentum. Banded still kind of has the beneficial matchup against offense that Scarf does, albeit more abusable due to how Sucker works and the Pokemon that resist it. Both sets are also good against Spectier with the Ghost resist, which many teams can have issues with, which is a big niche for offensive teams that can't afford to just throw on Blissey or Tyranitar.

is a pretty interesting Pokemon in the current metagame, with Ghost being such a great STAB and Speciter having great offensive stats. I've enjoyed using Scarf and Specs, due to the STAB being so good as well as the snowballing potential for Scarf in particular (I've used Modest because you don't really need Timid for anything now that Naga's banned). However, Sub + NP + Wisp is great as well, and has a much better fat matchup than even Specs and can even set up on and beat burnt Mandbibuzz. I've used Specs alongside Aura Sphere Latios because Latios lures in and really dents Tyranitar. Definitely worth trying out (there's a sample team with it here).

Sets I've used (the ones with more complicated EVs or explanation):

Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 244 HP / 136 Atk / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Superpower

Relevant Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Mystical Fire vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 196-232 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 396-468 (83.8 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 398-471 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 342-404 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 272-320 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 330-390 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This thing is pretty splashable for bulky offense and brings a lot to the table that other Steel-types can't. I've paired it with Wish Clefable on some teams, but it can easily get by without that, so long as it has a reasonable backbone to pivot with it.

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 96 Atk / 144 SpD / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil
- Substitute
- Glare

Zyg Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 188 HP / 144 SpD Zygarde in Psychic Terrain: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 144 SpD Zygarde: 282-332 (69.8 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 188 HP / 144 SpD Zygarde: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 354-416 (87.6 - 102.9%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 188 HP / 144 SpD Zygarde: 78-93 (19.3 - 23%)
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 144 SpD Zygarde: 176-210 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The HP EVs make Substitute live Seismic Toss, letting it easily use Blissey lacking Ice Beam as setup fodder. The Speed also lets you outspeed paralyzed Scarf Urshifu. The Attack is just for better rolls once you start boosting. These can likely be better optimized though.

Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 176 HP / 24 Def / 200 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Trick
- Volt Switch

Mag Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 176 HP / 24 Def Magearna on a critical hit: 141-166 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 176 HP / 24 Def Magearna: 291-343 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 141-167 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 176 HP / 24 Def Magearna: 289-340 (83.7 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 138-163 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These EVs outspeed 8 Speed Heatran and live 2 Wicked Blows and Specs Pult Fire Blast always. The wallbreaking on this set is still really nice despite all the new breakers and walls and Trick not being quite as amazing due to some more decent pivots into it.

Magearna @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 176 HP / 24 Def / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Trick
- Volt Switch

The calcs bulk-wise are the same but this set outspeeds up to and including Tornadus-T (you do need 252 positive nature to do this). The Special Attack is just for the sake of rolls on Pokemon like Zygarde. This set can catch the opponent off-guard to get a surprise kill while not being a totally suboptimal choice due to its good defensive utility for a scarfer.

Hopefully you enjoyed the post if you decide to read it!

 

[5thTimesTheCharm]

1) Threat?
I see Xurkitree being one of the biggest threats here once the metagame settles down. 178 base SpA, makes me say, "GF, There was no reason to make something insane like this, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE????" This pokemon doesnt get any bad stats in return, like we think Pheromosa did because of it's insane speed and good SpA and Atk. This Pokemon does alot of damage, and can literally destroy things here. It is also another pokemon that we use to destroy the insane almighty Toxapex. Because it lost Tail Glow and HP Ice, that's pretty much why it is pretty okay this gen, but I still think it is a threat to keep a distance from.

2) What does it really beat and how is it any different from Regieleki?

Zapdos, Moltres, Articuno, and the galarian versions, Corviknight, Toxapex (full phys def invested), Clefable, Celesteela, Skarmory, all say "gg" once it meets this guy. Landorus, both formes, check this thing however due to bad coverage like Regieleki, but what makes this thing different it is...well, It isnt as frail as Regieleki. Regieleki has 50 base Def and SpD? That is the main difference between Regieleki and Xurkitree. The 2nd main difference is the ability, Beast Boost and Transistor, my Main reason why I prefer Xurkitree over that frail mon. And when you have a pokemon on your team, that is broken in a specific stat, with Beast Boost, I promise you your opponent will be wondering..Why the fk is {insert beast boost pokemon} not banned yet? I bet you will be having so much fun watching your opponent suffer before your eyes against a very good pokemon. Just gonna point out that, Xurkitree's chance of getting banned isn't too high.

3) Other Potiential Sets?

CM Xurkitree, Charge Xurkitree, or Charge Beam Xurkitree, or even Magnet Rise Xurkitree, making Lando-T nothing to it, (not Lando-I as well).
Too lazy to send you the sets, but im sure you could probably make them yourselves, dont expect alot of things from someone else, so you could just take it. (That is a LESSON)


​

Nope.
I get it, it looks appealing. I myself fell in love with scarf Xurk last gen. However the fact is, it is substantially outclassed by Eleki, and the meta doesn't favor it at all. The fact is it is substantially outclassed by Eleki. This tangent on bulk is technically correct, however not by nearly as much as to where it's a defining factor. It's 83/71/71 bulk compared to Eleki's 80/50/50. Yes that's an improvement, but not overly substantial. Also, Eleki can easily get away with bad bulk to do amazing speed. Xurk, on the other hand, has a pretty terrible 81. The argument could be made that what makes Xurk more usable than Eleki is coverage, but that's also false. While it has Gleam and E-ball, which are admittedly nice, it lost HP Ice and it still gets outsped and OHKO'd by a lot. Scarf could be considered a viable way to undermine that, but then you're locked into one move, which is undesirable for Electric types and means you can't be as versatile and take advantage of the coverage you do get. Either way, you're put into a rough position.

Oh, also, speaking of versatility Eleki is also better than Xurk based on what it can do. Xurkitree can really only snowball sweep no matter what set you use, whereas Eleki can pivot, sweep, set screens, and it even functions as a decent spinner. Any way you slice it, Xurk isn't that good anymore. Kind of lost it's niche as an extremely powerful electric type that can burn through stuff. But hey, it'll probably be awesome in UU, or maybe even get into UUBL.

 

[MidnightReaper]

I have absolutely been adoring Aegislash lately, and I think people are really underestimating the benefit of King's Shield in this hyper-nuts metagame. It really helps to ease the burden of prediction with all of these borked threats going around and is a damn near hard stop to Pokemon such as Pheramosa.

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Sneak
- Rock Slide / Iron Head
- Close Combat​

This is the particular set that I've been using as of late. King's Shield is a wonderful move, and can halt the opponent's momentum even better than similar mons who run Protect. Shadow Sneak is absolutely fantastic for nailing the myriad of fast Ghosts running around (and also dumps on Spectrier with some chip).

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Conversely, from full health, Aegislash can switch in, survive a Spec shot, and revenge kill with Shadow Sneak.

252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 212-252 (65.4 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Close Combat is absolutely fantastic for all the Steel-types running around, and Rock Slide / Iron Head are toss-ups dependent on your specific coverage needs. If this set doesn't work, Aegislash also has access to boosting moves like Swords Dance and Automize. It can also run dedicated Special sets, mixed sets, so many options.

It's not exactly the most splashable Pokemon on the planet right now, but it can put in some serious work and it could be argued that it's actually a bit of an anti-meta pick right now.

 

[DeltaInsurgent]

One could say that a combination of certain traits, i.e. stats and Ability usually, is what makes a Mon broken.

Zygarde specifically is... a weird case of this, in my opinion.



Zygarde's main drawback by far in my opinion is that, for all intents and purposes, it doesn't have an Ability of any kind. One is banned from the tier (rightfully so) and the other only has an impact on two Ubers (again, rightfully so). In ORAS OU, it was in UUBL because it was essentially a weaker Garchomp, but was still rather strong due to its stats. Should it have access to its other signature moves that were present in XY/ORAS but which were rendered unobtainable because GameFreak said so, it likely would have been a very overwhelming Mon to deal with as it was seen to be in SM/USUM OU. Only needing one offensive move is huge for any Mon, especially with a type as powerful as Ground, but Zygarde has a surprising amount of utility on a great offensive and defensive typing that makes it incredibly hard to predict, very flexible to build with, and overall a very good candidate for the meta.

Am I sold on banning it because of its stellar qualities and well-rounded stats? Not entirely, but I absolutely agree with some aspects of pro-ban arguments. It can bypass potential checks with relative ease if it has the right set, and is overall a potentially unhealthy presence. However, before anything, I believe the meta should be given time to settle first, i.e. allowing drops to happen as they've been planned (time for Salamence in RU let's GOOOOO) and removing the stuff that many people have identified more readily to be broken because of their sheer force ( haha see what I did there) and raw power.

TL;DR: I don't fully think Zygarde is broken... yet.

 

[IceTMDAbss]

TL;DR: I don't fully think Zygarde is broken... yet.

I really feel that lol. I don't know if it's broken. It's extremely good no doubt, it's super threatning and potentially unhealthy, but I find it more annoying to deal with because of the whole Glare haxx thing than straight up broken. Within the proportional limits, it kinda reminds me of Regeleki. You can get easily 6-0'd by him if you're team isn't well prepared, but at the same time it has one extremely common weakness that you can exploit to wear it down.
Can we say that Zygarde forces anything on us by requiring us to have Ice coverage when it's that good and spammable in general ? That's on this point only that I compare it to Regieleki. Is Regieleki really unhealthy/broken as it forces Ground mons, when Ground has always been one of the best and most spammable typings in the game ?

I don't know, maybe is it just me because I almost never build a team without Ice coverage, or is it because there aren't that many players that are capable of fully exploiting its potential in the mid-ladder (1600 lol). But most times when I see Zygarde, I'm more annoyed by not having a Thousand Arrow switch-in, than anything else really. But from my experience, it rarely does immediate overwhelming damage and it needs time to be fully operational, thus making it somewhat managable. At least more managable than a brainless Lando-I consistently dealing 45%-55% to the whole metagame with any move it goes for lol.

 

[Zneon]

Hi everyone, I want to go over a Pokemon that has been honestly been doing a lot for me as a defensive backbone, Buzzwole:

This Pokemon is better than I would ever really expect, its a pretty nice defensive glue for quite a lot of teams and there are quite a few reasons why I think this.

1. Incredibly bulky

The first thing that comes to mind is that it is extremely bulky, physically I should specify, you are not going to be using this to tank any strong special hits anytime soon, however what you are going to use it for is tanking strong physical hits almost all the time. This pretty much means that Buzzwole is going to be a great blanket check to some really great Pokemon. I'm talking about Zygarde, Pheromosa, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Urshifu-S, hell even Landorus-I depending on how much SpDef investment you can put onto it. It's such a great thing that this Pokemon is so bulky on the physical side, because this leads to my next point.

2. Great longevity

This is probably the main appeal of Buzzwole in my opinion. Because it has reliable recovery in Roost, it can keep itself healthy throughout the course of the game and continue to check these Pokemon, its even better when you add the fact that it takes a lot to OHKO Buzzwole physically, you will need to wear it down to where it will get knocked out, but even that will be a hassle because the point above about its bulkiness along with Roost make this Pokemon pretty hard to completely overwhelm. Now it has flaws, like how its forced out my special attackers pretty easily or how its mediocre defensive typing causes it to lose to common types like Fairy-types, Flying-types and Fire-types, but nonetheless I feel these 2 qualities are already pretty great and the number of prominent Pokemon it checks are good enough to warrant a place on a team in my eyes.

3. Very solid movepool

Probably my last point will be its movepool, I'm not going to go too much into detail about this compared to the other 2 points, but its movepool is solid enough to where its able to check the Pokemon it needs to check with a lot of consistency. Ice Punch in my eyes is a given on Buzzwole because it checks Zygarde, which is an important target given how dominant it is right now, however there are other movepool others you can go, Poison Jab, Iron Head, Toxic, Stone Edge, Drain Punch, CC etc. Now it cannot fit all of these moves and depending on the moves you give it, its going to struggle with something else, so the 4MSS syndrome is there its not that severe in my opinion.

Conclusion

Use Buzzwole, its flaws are not that appealing I know, but I think the advantages it can give a player are enough to consider it on a team. Its not the best Pokemon in the metagame I would say however it does have a pretty solid niche as a anti-meta pick in the metagame and I would highly advise you guys to use it in some way.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

I really feel that lol. I don't know if it's broken. It's extremely good no doubt, it's super threatning and potentially unhealthy, but I find it more annoying to deal with because of the whole Glare haxx thing than straight up broken. Within the proportional limits, it kinda reminds me of Regeleki. You can get easily 6-0'd by him if you're team isn't well prepared, but at the same time it has one extremely common weakness that you can exploit to wear it down.
Can we say that Zygarde forces anything on us by requiring us to have Ice coverage when it's that good and spammable in general ?
That's on this point only that I compare it to Regieleki. Is Regieleki really unhealthy/broken as it forces Ground mons, when Ground has always been one of the best and most spammable typings in the game ?

This is a really basic point that doesn’t really hold water in the context of the builder or gameplay. You can say any Pokemon
isn’t broken because “it has a 4x weakness to y” but we all know it doesn’t work that way (we have an entire tier for broken Pokemon, some of which have 4x weaknesses). This was the same logic some used back in the days of DPP when Garchomp was being called for a ban, and it didn’t really hold water then either. It’s even worse logic now becauss HP Ice has been gutted, so things like LandoT aren’t answers anymore and the Electrics are total setup bait. Also, comparing it to Regeleki is lol. Regileki can’t cheese past its answers with paras on its own or run a different move or set and just beat its counters. Plus, you’re comparing running an Electric resist, which is easy to fit, to a very small pool of Pokemon that Zygarde can beat by itself (I made a post about this very point earlier here). Also, Zygarde has way better defensive utility than Regileki, so I have 0 idea what this comparison even is, try to actually look past the most basic level if you’re gonna make comparisons like this. It’d be nice if you elaborated in actual metagame contexts how it isn’t actually broken rather than just “just run Ice coverage and Glare is just annoying”.

I don't know, maybe is it just me because I almost never build a team without Ice coverage, or is it because there aren't that many players that are capable of fully exploiting its potential in the mid-ladder (1600 lol). But most times when I see Zygarde, I'm more annoyed by not having a Thousand Arrow switch-in, than anything else really. But from my experience, it rarely does immediate overwhelming damage and it needs time to be fully operational, thus making it somewhat managable. At least more managable than a brainless Lando-I consistently dealing 45%-55% to the whole metagame with any move it goes for lol.

Yeah, Zygarde doesn’t automatically win the game a lot of the time or super quickly, that doesn’t make it not overwhelming. Also, you really dismissed Thousand Arrows and relegated it to a passing mention when it’s like one of the main reasons Zygarde is (imo, and to the majority of council I’d assume) broken and unhealthy. Thousand Arrows being so good on its own is why Zygarde can pull off things like Sub + setup move + status so well. It only has like a few good switch-ins in objective terms (Buzzwole (good post on it Zneon), Tangrowth, and Pheremosa (not really that last one but fuck it lol)). Of course, switch-ins like max Defense Clefable and Slowbro still exist in spite of type chart. Thing is, all of these Pokemon can lose to Zygarde by itself if it has the right status and or setup move in the mid- or late-game and Zygarde gets a ton of setup opportunities anyway since a lot of the metagame gives it those chances. It can’t run every single setup or status move, of course, but that doesn’t make this ability to just cheese or wear down itself and beat its counters relatively consistently any less of an unhealthy aspect of building and preparing for it. The sets meant to beat certain counters are also still self-sufficient and very good even if you don’t get the matchup you want, so it’s like you’re making a big risk fitting x Zygarde compared to y. I know in Finchinator’s video (can be found here at 8:15. I promise I’m not Finch’s appointed advertiser), he made it a point that the offensive pressure in the metagame limits Zygarde quite a bit, I agree to an extent but don’t see that pressure as being enough to really keep it in a balanced state since Zygarde’s still able to take hits and cripple those offensive Pokemon with Glare or Toxic or even DD up (also Screens, even if uncommon right now, make this point less pertinent). I wanna wait until the inevitable suspect test to make a more detailed post about Zygarde and I wrote this from phone, but yea. Side note, I’d only be using top ladder gameplay as a basis for a mon’s worth if we gotta use ladder gameplay, since below the top is frankly not good, and probably part of why Zygarde has barely done shit vs you if you lacked a TArrows switch-in like you said you did. I’m glad we seem to get a discussion about Zygarde going here, even if it’s relatively small atm.

 

[IceTMDAbss]

This is a really basic point that doesn’t really hold water in the context of the builder or gameplay. You can say any Pokemon
isn’t broken because “it has a 4x weakness to y” but we all know it doesn’t work that way (we have an entire tier for broken Pokemon, some of which have 4x weaknesses). This was the same logic some used back in the days of DPP when Garchomp was being called for a ban, and it didn’t really hold water then either. It’s even worse logic now becauss HP Ice has been gutted, so things like LandoT aren’t answers anymore and the Electrics are total setup bait. Also, comparing it to Regeleki is lol. Regileki can’t cheese past its answers with paras on its own or run a different move or set and just beat its counters. Plus, you’re comparing running an Electric resist, which is easy to fit, to a very small pool of Pokemon that Zygarde can beat by itself (I made a post about this very point earlier here). Also, Zygarde has way better defensive utility than Regileki, so I have 0 idea what this comparison even is, try to actually look past the most basic level if you’re gonna make comparisons like this. It’d be nice if you elaborated in actual metagame contexts how it isn’t actually broken rather than just “just run Ice coverage and Glare is just annoying”.



Yeah, Zygarde doesn’t automatically win the game a lot of the time or super quickly, that doesn’t make it not overwhelming. Also, you really dismissed Thousand Arrows and relegated it to a passing mention when it’s like one of the main reasons Zygarde is (imo, and to the majority of council I’d assume) broken and unhealthy. Thousand Arrows being so good on its own is why Zygarde can pull off things like Sub + setup move + status so well. It only has like a few good switch-ins in objective terms (Buzzwole (good post on it Zneon), Tangrowth, and Pheremosa (not really that last one but fuck it lol)). Of course, switch-ins like max Defense Clefable and Slowbro still exist in spite of type chart. Thing is, all of these Pokemon can lose to Zygarde by itself if it has the right status and or setup move in the mid- or late-game and Zygarde gets a ton of setup opportunities anyway since a lot of the metagame gives it those chances. It can’t run every single setup or status move, of course, but that doesn’t make this ability to just cheese or wear down itself and beat its counters relatively consistently any less of an unhealthy aspect of building and preparing for it. The sets meant to beat certain counters are also still self-sufficient and very good even if you don’t get the matchup you want, so it’s like you’re making a big risk fitting x Zygarde compared to y. I know in Finchinator’s video (can be found here at 8:15. I promise I’m not Finch’s appointed advertiser), he made it a point that the offensive pressure in the metagame limits Zygarde quite a bit, I agree to an extent but don’t see that pressure as being enough to really keep it in a balanced state since Zygarde’s still able to take hits and cripple those offensive Pokemon with Glare or Toxic or even DD up (also Screens, even if uncommon right now, make this point less pertinent). I wanna wait until the inevitable suspect test to make a more detailed post about Zygarde and I wrote this from phone, but yea. Side note, I’d only be using top ladder gameplay as a basis for a mon’s worth if we gotta use ladder gameplay, since below the top is frankly not good, and probably part of why Zygarde has barely done shit vs you if you lacked a TArrows switch-in like you said you did. I’m glad we seem to get a discussion about Zygarde going here, even if it’s relatively small atm.

The comparison with Regieleki as I said was "WITHIN THE PROPORTIONAL LIMITS". Of course Regi isn't as threatning as Zygarde because it's so untilateral compared to Z which unhealthy as I said it in my post. It was less a comparison between them than really a single common point. Again, my point was to make the parallel between the Ice and Ground affinities in both cases.

The Ice type part is of course extremely basic, and it was not here to be deep or whatever. Of course it's more complex than that, otherwise it wouldn't have been banned last gen despite HP Ice's existence. But on the other hand, you actually have more solid Ice options this gen in K-B (which is so threatening too btw), etc. That's why I don't have the feeling of it being less managable than during the HP Ice meta.
Also, I think you overestimated a personal feeling that I had on Zygarde. I wouldn't be surprised if it's banned because it's not healthy.

And I think you misunderstood what I said at the end about T-Arrows, or maybe wasn't it clear enough, but the main thing that makes Zygarde threatening is absolutely T-Arrows more than anything else. It's arguably the most spammable move ever, and having a Smack Down+Earthquake in one move is just unfair and broken for sure.

But bottom line, yeah, I just don't feel like it's broken to the point of it being quick banned or banned before Lando-I that I find more threatening. But that doesn't mean that Z isn't broken or unhealthy. For the exact same reasons why I actually never complained about Aegi's bans in previous gens, because of this very unhealthiness (and just to make it clear, I'm not comparing Zygarde and Aegislash as pokemons lol).
I actually happen to find that its ban in USUM made total sense because of how overwhelming it was at some point. But it took some time quite logically because it's not a ban as obvious as some others, in my humble opinion once again. It definitely deserves discussions, and again, I wouldn't be surprised to see it banned because of its degree of unhealthiness in a meta.

Hope it's a bit clearer than my previous post, and thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[hmsa2012]

At the end of the day, Zygarde benefited alot this gen due to the absence of HP Ice. Since it has so much bulk, Glare + Sub is absolutely insane to deal with because if your answers or checks get subdued to Para, you now have to play the Sub games and if its DD or Coil, you pretty much just have to sack mons in order to get in the answers, break sub, watch it get para'd and its GG.

Even though its an amazing mon, I think its inherently broken to the point that its unhealthy. Sure, you can bring phy def walls that can check it, but if it gets behind a sub and start's Coil, you also will succumb to PP loss as well in the long run.

 

[Arcueid]

Zygarde ​

Zygarde is disgusting. It is almost impossible to switch-in to this safely unless you know which set you're going up against as this Pokemon can run either Coil, Dragon Dance, or Choice Band and be extremely effective in the match due to the offensive pressure this Pokemon creates on his own. Sub Coil is probably the most common set it runs you're going to face and if Zygarde gets a free switch-in, you're always going to get horribly punished for letting this walk in. It always proceeds to paralyze one of your Pokemon with Glare and attempt to setup behind a beefy substitute which gets even more physically bulkier with each instance of Coil. It also can run Dragon Dance which allows it to improve its middling speed tier and threaten the enemy team by outspeeding it. Moreover, there is the Choice Band set which goes hand in hand with Extreme Speed and Thousand Arrows, which hit extremely hard. It can also run Iron Tail/Superpower on the band set for coverage as well. Moreover, Zygardes on the ladder have started running Toxic in one of their moveslots, so good luck trying to bring in Buzzwole unless you're sure that the enemy Zygarde isn't carrying Toxic.

Honestly, this Pokemon benefited so much from the loss of Hidden Power this generation as Hidden Power was just a free coverage move. There are now quite a less number of Pokemon that can easily break through Zygarde's substitutes as Hidden Power is being omitted leading to Zygarde being dominant in this meta, making it extremely centralizing. It is essentially a game losing move if you do not bring Zygarde checks and since there aren't many, this makes Zygarde quite restrictive to teambuilding. Hence, I honestly believe that this Pokemon should be part of the next wave of quick bans.

Also somewhat of a list of Pokemon that can power through Zygarde reliably:
(Prevents status and needs defensive investment to take Zygarde's hits. Only means of recovery when facing a Zygarde is Draining Kiss)
(Against non banded variants, still can lose to parahax against non banded variants)
(Runs BU and can recover from status via Jungle Healing. Darkest Lariat ignores stat changes.)
(Wins until Zygarde uses Toxic on Buzzwole.)
(Wins as Infiltrator Draco Meteor or unless Zygarde has been setting up via Dragon Dance and/or is specially defensively invested.)
(Hates getting Glared but Icicle Spear breaks through Zygarde. Can go either way per parahax, however, this matchup is heavily in Kyurem's favor.)

 

[BigFatMantis]

Just a thought here:

Was there any discussion at all in considering the unbanning of Darmanitan-Galar w/ Zen Mode? I mean, since Zygarde w/ Aura Break was unbanned, but Power Construct stayed banned, it seems like the same concept. And I don't think Darmanitan-G w/ Zen Mode is anywhere nearly as close as broken as Zygarde is. It's just a fun gimmick that nobody is allowed to use anywhere because the entire mon is banned.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Just a thought here:

Was there any discussion at all in considering the unbanning of Darmanitan-Galar w/ Zen Mode? I mean, since Zygarde w/ Aura Break was unbanned, but Power Construct stayed banned, it seems like the same concept. And I don't think Darmanitan-G w/ Zen Mode is anywhere nearly as close as broken as Zygarde is. It's just a fun gimmick that nobody is allowed to use anywhere because the entire mon is banned.

The difference between Garmanitan and Zygarde is that with Zygarde, it's the in-battle transformation that's broken. You can't just unban Zen Garm because when it's over half health, it's regular Garm. It's the same problem with Mega Garchomp in past gens. You can't allow Mega Garchomp in UU because until it Mega Evolves, it's just regular Garchomp.

In-battle alternate forms are only tiered separately if the transformation is better.

 

[kstiemsma]

Was there any discussion at all in considering the unbanning of Darmanitan-Galar w/ Zen Mode? I mean, since Zygarde w/ Aura Break was unbanned, but Power Construct stayed banned, it seems like the same concept.

Pumpkinz explained it well but also from charmflash's announcement of Darmanitan's ban:

Alright so Darmanitan-Galar with Gorilla Tactics is broken. Why aren't we just banning Gorilla Tactics?

We ban Pokemon regardless of whether their movepool, their stats, or their ability makes them overpowered. Our tiering system is built on this principle; banning Pokemon components separately will produce a bloated and convoluted ruleset if consistently used as a first measure. The circumstances need to be exceptional for us to stray from this norm, such as inherently uncompetitive (heavily luck-based / devoid of skill) abilities, or abilities that affect a larger variety of Pokemon very negatively. Two recent examples would be Shadow Tag and Moody.