Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

TPP

Letters From Heaven
is a Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor
RMT Leader
Hello everyone! With Sword and Shield finally being released, you all are free to start discussing the SWSH OU metagame here! Everything you need should be found in the data mine resources below. I will also list things in a similar manner to the role compendium to help distinguish potential roles. I'll try to keep it updated as we get more information. Enjoy!
- New Abilities & New Moves
- Unreleased Pokemon
- Role Compendium
- Unavailable Moves & Limited Distributed Moves
- New Items
- Usage Stats
- Dynamax Mechanic (next post)

Datamine Resources:

Part 1 of Moveset Listings (includes base stats)
Part 2 of Moveset Listings (includes base stats)
List of changes to moves and movepools
Libero: Changes the Pokémon’s type to the type of the move it’s about to use. - Cinderace
Cotton Down: When the Pokémon is hit by an attack, it scatters cotton fluff around and lowers the Speed stat of all Pokémon except itself. - Eldegoss
Propeller Tail: Ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon’s Abilities and moves that draw in moves. - Barraskewda
Mirror Armor: Bounces back only the stat-lowering effects that the Pokémon receives. - Corviknight
Gulp Missile: When the Pokémon uses Surf or Dive, it will come back with prey. When it takes damage, it will spit out the prey to attack. - Cramorant
Stalwart: Ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon’s Abilities and moves that draw in moves. - Duraludon
Steam Engine: Boosts the Pokémon’s Speed stat drastically if hit by a Fire- or Water-type move. - Rolycoly line
Punk Rock: Boosts the power of sound-based moves. The Pokémon also takes half the damage from these kinds of moves. - Toxtricity
Sand Spit: The Pokémon creates a sandstorm when it’s hit by an attack. - Sandaconda
Ice Scales: The Pokémon is protected by ice scales, which halve the damage taken from special moves. - Frosmoth
Ripen: Ripens Berries and doubles their effect. - Flapple/Appletun
Ice Face The Pokémon’s ice head can take a physical attack as a substitute, but the attack also changes the Pokémon’s appearance. The ice will be restored when it hails. - Eiscue
Power Spot: Just being next to the Pokémon powers up moves. - Stonjourner
Mimicry: Changes the Pokémon’s type depending on the terrain. - Galarian Stunfisk
Screen Cleaner: When the Pokémon enters a battle, the effects of Light Screen, Reflect, and Aurora Veil are nullified for both opposing and ally Pokémon. - Mr Rime
Steely Spirit: Powers up ally Pokémon’s Steel-type moves. - Purrserker
Perish Body: When hit by a move that makes direct contact, the Pokémon and the attacker will faint after three turns unless they switch out of battle. - Galarian Corsola/Cursola
Wandering Spirit: The Pokémon exchanges Abilities with a Pokémon that hits it with a move that makes direct contact. - Runerigus
Gorilla Tactics: Boosts the Pokémon’s Attack stat but only allows the use of the first selected move. - Galarian Darmanitan
Neutralizing Gas: If the Pokémon with Neutralizing Gas is in the battle, the effects of all Pokémon’s Abilities will be nullified or will not be triggered. - Galarian Weezing
Pastel Veil: Protects the Pokémon and its ally Pokémon from being poisoned. - Galarian Ponyta Line
Hunger Switch: The Pokémon changes its form, alternating between its Full Belly Mode and Hangry Mode after the end of each turn. - Morpeko

Double Iron Bash: The user rotates, centering the hex nut in its chest, and then strikes with its arms twice in a row. This may also make the target flinch.
Snipe Shot: The user ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon’s moves and Abilities that draw in moves, allowing this move to hit the chosen target.
Jaw Lock: This move prevents the user and the target from switching out until either of them faints. The effect goes away if either of the Pokémon leaves the field.
Stuff Cheeks: The user eats its held Berry, then sharply raises its Defense stat.
No Retreat: This move raises all the user’s stats but prevents the user from switching out or fleeing.
Tar Shot: The user pours sticky tar over the target, lowering the target’s Speed stat. The target becomes weaker to Fire-type moves.
Magic Powder: The user scatters a cloud of magic powder that changes the target to Psychic type.
Dragon Darts: The user attacks twice using Dreepy. If there are two targets, this move hits each target once.
Teatime: The user has teatime with all the Pokémon in the battle. Each Pokémon eats its held Berry.
Octolock: The user locks the target in and prevents it from fleeing. This move also lowers the target’s Defense and Sp. Def every turn.
Bolt Beak: The user stabs the target with its electrified beak. If the user attacks before the target, the power of this move is doubled.
Fishious Rend: The user rends the target with its hard gills. If the user attacks before the target, the power of this move is doubled.
Court Change: With its mysterious power, the user swaps the effects on either side of the field.
Clangorous Soul: The user raises all its stats by using some of its HP.
Body Press: The user attacks by slamming its body into the target. The higher the user’s Defense, the more damage it can inflict on the target.
Decorate: The user sharply raises the target’s Attack and Sp. Atk stats by decorating the target.
Drum Beating: The user plays its drum, controlling the drum’s roots to attack the target. This also lowers the target’s Speed stat.
Snap Trap: The user snares the target in a snap trap for four to five turns.
Pyro Ball: The user attacks by igniting a small stone and launching it as a fiery ball at the target. This may also leave the target with a burn.
Aura Wheel: Morpeko attacks and raises its Speed with the energy stored in its cheeks. This move’s type changes depending on the user’s form.
Breaking Swipe: The user swings its tough tail wildly and attacks opposing Pokémon. This also lowers their Attack stats.
Overdrive: The user attacks opposing Pokémon by twanging a guitar or bass guitar, causing a huge echo and strong vibration.
Apple Acid: The user attacks the target with an acidic liquid created from tart apples. This also lowers the target’s Sp. Def stat.
Grav Apple: The user inflicts damage by dropping an apple from high above. This also lowers the target’s Defense stat.
Spirit Break: The user attacks the target with so much force that it could break the target’s spirit. This also lowers the target’s Sp. Atk stat.
Strange Steam: The user attacks the target by emitting steam. This may also confuse the target.
Life Dew: The user scatters mysterious water around and restores the HP of itself and its ally Pokémon in the battle.
Obstruct: This move enables the user to protect itself from all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. Direct contact harshly lowers the attacker’s Defense stat.
False Surrender: The user pretends to bow its head, but then it stabs the target with its disheveled hair. This attack never misses.
Meteor Assault: The user attacks wildly with its thick leek. The user can’t move on the next turn, because the force of this move makes it stagger.
Steel Beam: The user fires a beam of steel that it collected from its entire body. This also damages the user.

Max Flare: This is a Fire-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user intensifies the sun for five turns.
Max Flutterby: This is a Bug-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This lowers the target’s Sp. Atk stat.
Max Lightning: This is an Electric-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user turns the ground into Electric Terrain for five turns.
Max Strike: This is a Normal-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This lowers the target’s Speed stat.
Max Knuckle: This is a Fighting-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This raises ally Pokémon’s Attack stats.
Max Phantasm: This is a Ghost-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This lowers the target’s Defense stat.
Max Hailstorm: This is an Ice-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user summons a hailstorm lasting five turns.
Max Ooze: This is a Poison-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This raises ally Pokémon’s Sp. Atk stats.
Max Geyser: This is a Water-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user summons a heavy rain that falls for five turns.
Max Airstream: This is a Flying-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This raises ally Pokémon’s Speed stats.
Max Starfall: This is a Fairy-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user turns the ground into Misty Terrain for five turns.
Max Wyrmwind: This is a Dragon-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This lowers the target’s Attack stat.
Max Mindstorm: This is a Psychic-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user turns the ground into Psychic Terrain for five turns.
Max Rockfall: This is a Rock-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user summons a sandstorm lasting five turns.
Max Quake: This is a Ground-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This raises ally Pokémon’s Sp. Def stats.
Max Darkness: This is a Dark-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This lowers the target’s Sp. Def stat.
Max Overgrowth: This is a Grass-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. The user turns the ground into Grassy Terrain for five turns.
Max Steelspike: This is a Steel-type attack Dynamax Pokémon use. This raises ally Pokémon’s Defense stats.
Max Guard: This move enables the user to protect itself from all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession.
G-Max Wildfire: A Fire-type attack that Gigantamax Charizard use. This move continues to deal damage to opponents for four turns.
G-Max Befuddle: A Bug-type attack that Gigantamax Butterfree use. This move inflicts the poisoned, paralyzed, or asleep status condition on opponents.
G-Max Chi Strike: A Fighting-type attack that Gigantamax Machamp use. This move raises the chance of critical hits.
G-Max Terror: A Ghost-type attack that Gigantamax Gengar use. This Pokémon steps on the opposing Pokémon’s shadow to prevent them from escaping.
G-Max Replenish: A Normal-type attack that Gigantamax Snorlax use. This move restores Berries that have been eaten.
G-Max Malodor: A Poison-type attack that Gigantamax Garbodor use. This move poisons opponents.
G-Max Stonesurge: A Water-type attack that Gigantamax Drednaw use. This move scatters sharp rocks around the field.
G-Max Wind Rage: A Flying-type attack that Gigantamax Corviknight use. This move removes the effects of moves like Reflect and Light Screen.
G-Max Stun Shock: An Electric-type attack that Gigantamax Toxtricity use. This move poisons or paralyzes opponents.
G-Max Finale: A Fairy-type attack that Gigantamax Alcremie use. This move heals the HP of allies.
G-Max Depletion: A Dragon-type attack that Gigantamax Duraludon use. Reduces the PP of the last move used.
G-Max Gravitas: A Psychic-type attack that Gigantamax Orbeetle use. This move changes gravity for five turns.
G-Max Volcalith: A Rock-type attack that Gigantamax Coalossal use. This move continues to deal damage to opponents for four turns.
G-Max Sandblast: A Ground-type attack that Gigantamax Sandaconda use. Opponents are trapped in a raging sandstorm for four to five turns.
G-Max Snooze: A Dark-type attack that Gigantamax Grimmsnarl use. The user lets loose a huge yawn that lulls the targets into falling asleep on the next turn.
G-Max Tartness: A Grass-type attack that Gigantamax Flapple use. This move reduces the opponents’ evasiveness.
G-Max Sweetness: A Grass-type attack that Gigantamax Appletun use. This move heals the status conditions of allies.
G-Max Smite: A Fairy-type attack that Gigantamax Hatterene use. This move confuses opponents.
G-Max Steelsurge: A Steel-type attack that Gigantamax Copperajah use. This move scatters sharp spikes around the field.
G-Max Foam Burst: A Water-type attack that Gigantamax Kingler use. This move harshly lowers the Speed of opponents.
G-Max Centiferno: A Fire-type attack that Gigantamax Centiskorch use. This move traps opponents in flames for four to five turns.


Before I get into the role compendium, it is important to note that not every mon coded into the game is available from the start. There are also hidden abilities that are unavailable at the start as well, so the following list will take that into consideration, and the discussion should also try to stay away from currently unreleased mons/abilities.
Hidden Abilities:
(Grassy Surge)
(Libero)
(Sniper)
(Sand Rush)
(Slush Rush)
(Sand Rush)
(Slush Rush)

Rillaboom, Cinderace, Inteleon, Dracozolt, Arctozolt, Dracovish, Arctovish


Pokemon:

Venusaur, Blastoise, Alolan Raichu, Alolan Ninetales, Alolan Dugtrio, Alolan Persian, Rapidash, Weezing, Celebi, Jirachi, Darmanitan, Stunfisk, Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, Kyurem, Kyurem-Black, Keldeo, Decidueye, Incineroar, Primarina, Zeraora, Melmetal

Although not all of the below mons will be viable in OU, I'll go ahead and list every fully evolved mon for each role. As the tier starts to shape up, we'll post a more accurate compendium for OU.

Entry Hazards:
Stealth Rock:

Clefable, Dugtrio, Mew, Sudowoodo, Steelix, Shuckle, Tyranitar, Mawile, Torkoal, Lunatone, Solrock, Claydol, Bronzong, Hippowdon, Rhyperior, Mamoswine, Gigalith, Excadrill, Seismitoad, Crustle, Ferrothorn, Galarian Stunfisk, Bisharp, Mudsdale, Kommo-o, Drednaw, Coalossal, Sandaconda, Cursola, Runerigus, Stonjourner, Copperajah, Duraludon
Spikes:

Cloyster, Mew, Qwilfish, Delibird, Glalie, Roserade, Froslass, Maractus, Crustle, Garbodor, Ferrothorn, Accelgor, Diggersby, Golisopod, Colossal, Pincurchin
Toxic Spikes:

Cloyster, Galarian Weezing, Mew, Qwilfish, Roserade, Vespiquen, Drapion, Cofagrigus, Garbodor, Accelgor, Toxapex, Runerigus, Pincurchin

Sticky Web:

Shuckle, Galvantula, Slurpuff, Vikavolt, Ribombee, Araquanid, Orbeetle

Hazard Removal:
Rapid Spin:

Delibird, Hitmontop, Torkoal, Claydol, Excadrill, Avalugg, Tsareena, Turtonator, Dhelmise, Eldegoss, Coalossal, Mr. Rime, Morepko
Defog:

Galarian Weezing, Noctowl, Shiftry, Drifblim, Conkeldurr, Braviary, Mandibuzz, Hawlucha, Noivern, Corviknight, Cramorant, Sirfetch'd, Frosmoth

Setup Sweepers/Breakers:
Dragon Dance:

Charizard, Gyarados, Lapras, Mew, Steelix, Tyranitar, Tyranitar, Flygon, Whiscash, Crawdaunt, Milotic, Scrafty, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Noivern, Salazzle, Drampa, Kommo-o, Dragapult
Swords Dance:

Charizard, Vileplume, Galarian Rapidash, Kingler, Seaking, Mew, Bellossom, Qwilfish, Ludicolo, Shiftry, Shedinja, Mawile, Solrock, Crawdaunt, Roserade, Cherrim, Lucario, Drapion, Toxicroack, Abamasnow, Weavile, Rhyperior, Leafeon, Gallade, Excadrill, Crustle, Escavalier, Ferrothorn, Haxorus, Beartic, Bisharp, Diggersby, Pangoro, Aegislash, Barbaracle, Hawlucha, Bewear, Golisopod, Silvally, Mimikyu, Dhelmise, Kommo-o, Rillaboom, Inteleon, Dubwool, Drednaw, Hatterene, Perrserker, Sirfetch'd, Falinks, Duraludon
Calm Mind:

Clefable, Ninetales, Rapidash, Mew, Noctowl, Xatu, Sudowoodo, Espeon, Gardevoir, Sableye, Lunatone, Solrock, Claydol, Drifblim, Bronzong, Lucario, Weavile, Gallade, Dusknoir, Musharna, Swoobat, Sigilyph, Cofagrigus, Cinccino, Gothitelle, Reuniclus, Beheeyem, Chandelure, Meowstic, Aromatisse, Slurpuff, Malamar, Sylveon, Trevenant,, Ribombee, Oranguru, Drampa, Orbeetle, Hatterene, Cursola, Mr. Rime, Runerigus, Alcremie, Frosmoth, Indeedee
Nasty Plot:

Raichu, Ninetales, Persian, Gengar, Mew, Noctowl, Shiftry, Sableye, Lunatone, Crawdaunt, Claydol, Skuntank, Lucario, Toxicroak, Weavile, Togekiss, Rotom, Rotom-Fan, Rotom-Frost, Rotom-heat, Rotom-Mow, Rotom-Wash, Liepard, Swoobat, Cofagrigus, Gothitelle, Beheeyem, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, Meowstic, Aromatisse, Malamar, Gourgeist, Salazzle, Oranguru, Corviknight, Thievul, Polteageist, Grimmsnarl, Perrserker, Mr. Rime, Runerigus, Morepko
Quiver Dance:

Butterfree, Bellossom, Ribombee, Frosmoth
Shell Smash:

Cloyster, Shuckle, Torkoal, Crustle, Barbaracle, Turtonator, Polteageist
Belly Drum:

Charizard, Snorlax, Galarian, Darmanitan, Kommo-o, Greedent, Eiscue
Coil:

Milotic, Sandaconda, Centiskorch

Clangorous Soul:

Kommo-o

Weather:
Rain:

Pelipper, Seaking, Qwilfish, Ludicolo, Beartic, Seismitoad, Drednaw, Barraskewda
Sun:

Torkoal, Charizard, Vileplume, Bellossom, Shiftry, Cherrim, Leafeon, Whimsicott, Maractus, Heliolisk
Sand:

Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Gigalith, Dugtrio, Gastrodon, Excadrill, Sandaconda
Hail:

Abamasnow, Vanilluxe, Beartic, Bewear, Eiscue


Next, there were some significant changes in movepools, mainly with several moves being cut down in distribution. The following are moves that are not in the game, followed by moves that have limited distribution, along with the mons that do have these moves.

Not available:

Pursuit, Hidden Power, Return, Frustration, Softboiled, Heal Order, Heal Bell

Limited distribution:
Knock Off:

Machamp, Kingler, Shuckle, Ludicolo, Pelipper, Gardevoir, Sableye, Crawdaunt, Drapion, Gallade, Swoobat, Crustle, Cinccino, Escavalier, Ferrothorn, Mandibuzz, Salazzle, Passimian, Rillaboom, Thievul, Centiskorch, Obstagoon, Sirfetch'd
Roost:

Noctowl, Xatu, Mantine, Pelipper, Unfezant, Swoobat, Sigilyph, Mandibuzz, Noivern, Corviknight, Cramorant
Defog:

Galarian Weezing, Noctowl, Shiftry, Drifblim, Conkeldurr, Braviary, Mandibuzz, Hawlucha, Noivern, Corviknight, Cramorant, Sirfetch'd, Frosmoth
Toxic:

Vileplume, Galarian Weezing, Bellossom, Quagsire, Qwilfish, Shuckle, Roserade, Vespiquen, Skuntank, Drapion, Toxicroak, Seismitoad, Garbodor, Ferrothorn, Accelgor, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Salazzle, Pyukumuku, Toxtricity

Finally, here are some new items that were added to the game.

New Items:

Blunder Policy: Raises Speed sharply when a Pokémon misses with a move because of accuracy.
Eject Pack: An item to be held by a Pokémon. When the holder's stats are lowered, it will be switched out of battle.
Heavy-Duty Boots: These boots prevent the effects of traps set on the battlefield.
Room Service: An item to be held by a Pokémon. Lowers Speed when Trick Room takes effect.
Throat Spray: Raises Sp. Atk when a Pokémon uses a sound-based move.
Utility Umbrella: An item to be held by a Pokémon. This sturdy umbrella protects the holder from the effects of weather.


Usage and Damage Calculator:


November Usage Stats (also in post #896) and visual image here:
Code:
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1    | Dragapult          | 34.77819% | 921374 | 35.663% | 660270 | 34.170% |
| 2    | Darmanitan-Galar   | 34.63651% | 845528 | 32.727% | 639910 | 33.117% |
| 3    | Ditto              | 33.01591% | 485493 | 18.792% | 324063 | 16.771% |
| 4    | Excadrill          | 32.75617% | 647707 | 25.070% | 503401 | 26.052% |
| 5    | Corviknight        | 32.13087% | 624516 | 24.173% | 464274 | 24.027% |
| 6    | Ferrothorn         | 28.40382% | 601620 | 23.286% | 499486 | 25.849% |
| 7    | Rotom-Wash         | 19.51660% | 346122 | 13.397% | 286766 | 14.841% |
| 8    | Gyarados           | 18.54957% | 386563 | 14.962% | 271719 | 14.062% |
| 9    | Hydreigon          | 17.63615% | 282357 | 10.929% | 212233 | 10.984% |
| 10   | Toxapex            | 17.42956% | 333812 | 12.921% | 262702 | 13.595% |
| 11   | Aegislash          | 15.62743% | 332485 | 12.869% | 241280 | 12.487% |
| 12   | Hatterene          | 15.49125% | 318647 | 12.334% | 238932 | 12.365% |
| 13   | Clefable           | 15.28517% | 162871 |  6.304% | 125676 |  6.504% |
| 14   | Grimmsnarl         | 13.80130% | 396861 | 15.361% | 297956 | 15.420% |
| 15   | Cinderace          | 13.63177% | 405609 | 15.700% | 304119 | 15.739% |
| 16   | Seismitoad         | 13.20005% | 162603 |  6.294% | 134726 |  6.972% |
| 17   | Corsola-Galar      | 12.69631% | 388387 | 15.033% | 311135 | 16.102% |
| 18   | Dracovish          | 12.43686% | 287527 | 11.129% | 218752 | 11.321% |
| 19   | Tyranitar          |  9.94552% | 210848 |  8.161% | 166683 |  8.626% |
| 20   | Mandibuzz          |  9.42030% | 115892 |  4.486% | 88759  |  4.593% |
| 21   | Toxtricity         |  9.22502% | 290826 | 11.257% | 205602 | 10.640% |
| 22   | Pelipper           |  7.76577% | 198975 |  7.702% | 178933 |  9.260% |
| 23   | Barraskewda        |  7.05556% | 251096 |  9.719% | 173026 |  8.954% |
| 24   | Conkeldurr         |  6.58137% | 140911 |  5.454% | 107156 |  5.546% |
| 25   | Hawlucha           |  6.27095% | 154211 |  5.969% | 105540 |  5.462% |
| 26   | Rotom-Heat         |  5.75952% | 87298  |  3.379% | 71794  |  3.715% |
| 27   | Dracozolt          |  5.66516% | 143643 |  5.560% | 105355 |  5.452% |
| 28   | Mimikyu            |  5.54591% | 97463  |  3.772% | 69012  |  3.572% |
| 29   | Dugtrio            |  5.43636% | 101633 |  3.934% | 77751  |  4.024% |
| 30   | Bisharp            |  5.33964% | 85092  |  3.294% | 61439  |  3.180% |
| 31   | Togekiss           |  5.29094% | 113864 |  4.407% | 84388  |  4.367% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +


The damage calculator is now up to date!
 
Last edited:

TPP

Letters From Heaven
is a Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor
RMT Leader
Dynamax Mechanic:
  • You can turn a single pokemon giant for 3 turns once per game.
  • It does not require an item, meaning that any pokemon can dynamax at any time.
  • When dynamaxed, each attacking move will turn into the corresponding max move for its type, while status moves turn into Max Guard (basically Protect).
  • Gigantamax allows some pokemon to have new forms and special max moves.
  • You lose your dynamax upon switching out.
  • Your pokemon gains a 100% HP Boost while dynamaxed (doubles max HP).
  • The base power for max moves are dependent upon the base power of the original move it replaced.
  • Dynamaxed pokemon cannot be flinched.
  • Dynamaxed pokemon cannot be phased out.
  • All weight based moves will fail when used against a dynamaxed pokemon.
  • When you dynamax a Choice Band/Specs/Scarf user, you will no longer be locked into a single attack. However, you do not gain the attack/special attack/speed boost that comes from the item while dynamaxed. You will become locked again once dynamax wears off.
  • The attack boost and move lock effect of Gorilla Tactics is negated when dynamaxed.
  • The effects of max moves still occur even if the opponent has used substitute.
 

trubbish

Banned deucer.
I've been messing around with Rain and I have to say it's become a favorite play style of mine so far. Perhaps due in part to how crazy Gyarados is looking. So far I've been using a set that looks like:

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Power Whip
- Bounce

Is that optimal? I dunno, it's hard to say at this point, but it really has been smacking things around. Even independent of the rain, it's just a big powerful Dragon Dance sweeper. Power Whip is to hit other water types (Seismitoad has been common) but the real jewel of the set is Bounce. It has power comparable to Z-Fly but it also boosts speed, and a +2 Gyarados is a scary propsect, and it's why I feel a little more comfortable going Adamant. I haven't faced many Toxapex/Ferrothorn cores yet so I can imagine EQ becoming superior over Power Whip (or even Waterfall perhaps) but I do find Gyara fits nicely in a core with Ferrothorn, Pelipper and other rain sweepers like Barraskewda.
 
I've been messing around with Rain and I have to say it's become a favorite play style of mine so far. Perhaps due in part to how crazy Gyarados is looking. So far I've been using a set that looks like:

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Power Whip
- Bounce

Is that optimal? I dunno, it's hard to say at this point, but it really has been smacking things around. Even independent of the rain, it's just a big powerful Dragon Dance sweeper. Power Whip is to hit other water types (Seismitoad has been common) but the real jewel of the set is Bounce. It has power comparable to Z-Fly but it also boosts speed, and a +2 Gyarados is a scary propsect, and it's why I feel a little more comfortable going Adamant. I haven't faced many Toxapex/Ferrothorn cores yet so I can imagine EQ becoming superior over Power Whip (or even Waterfall perhaps) but I do find Gyara fits nicely in a core with Ferrothorn, Pelipper and other rain sweepers like Barraskewda.
i would replace intimidate with moxie, so you get the boosts and maybe life orb with leftovers or something like that, because you do enough damage against the most stuff and with leftovers you don't die so fast
 

talah

Ugh, those feels again
is a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Boots > Orb & Moxie > Intimidate for sure if you're striving to be optimal, they're fantastic

the boots are easily one of the most exciting additions of this gen for me, they make a lot of mons that would be okay or decent actually really good, and they allow for some really interesting dynamics for both offensive and defensive mons, albeit for different reasons.

i'm gonna make a bigger post when i gather my thoughts on the gen a bit, it's all too much and all too day 1 atm.

my thoughts rn are approx:

dynamax kinda really busted
 

Eve

formerly Ezaphs
is a Forum Moderator
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Gyarados is, frankly, ridiculous. I've heard rumours of there being consideration for a suspect of Dynamax but I can't help but feel a lot of that comes purely from how well this mon in particular uses it, along with a few others (ahem Hawlucha ahem). Given screens support it is extremely difficult to stop. The current best answer, in my opinion, is Red Card Mimikyu and that relies on the fact that Dynamax users being immune to phazing hasn't been implemented yet. Other answers include- Ditto which has to let several things drop to beat an opposing Gyarados behind screens, Trick Room Mimikyu (niche), Prankster users (it can still set up over these, even Grimmsnarl with dual screens and twave) and Scarf Dragapult (doesn't KO behind screens). It's really easy to set gyara up and its perfect coverage makes switching around it a nightmare, not to mention once it actually Dynamaxes and starts to boost itself while you dance around it with Moxie + Max Airstream resulting in a free DD for using your STAB. The only thing I see that could really change Gyarados' viability is if the entire meta was catered to never letting Gyarados switch in easily, a feat much harder with the removal of Hidden Power and also a case of overcentralisation. BS mon.
For reference, I've been using this team with it. Nearly all of my losses come from bad luck or getting swept by opposing Gyarados, funnily enough.

EDIT: Forgot Corsola, that's a pretty good answer too tbf but very easy to pressure with special attackers (in my case, Rotom + Polteageist gets the job done)
 

Colonel M

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Barraskewda @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Close Combat
- Bounce
- Psychic Fangs

You could honestly use Leftovers or another item over Life Orb, but with Dynamax Barraskewda is pretty good. I don't think it's quite on the levels of Hawlucha nor Gyarados, but it's Top 5.

Rain with Dynamaxed Waterfall
+1 Attack with Dynamaxed Close Combat
+1 Speed with Dynamaxed Bounce (also helps clear some bully Grasses).
Psychic Terrain which boosts Psychic Fangs and protects against priority attacks.

Other strong contenders are Kommo-o, Excadrill, Corviknight.

As a final note, I feel Ditto deserves a big mention because it's not only a Pokemon that can revenge some Dynamaxed boosted mons, but assuming it retains its form after Dynamaxing it can also reverse sweep too. For reference Ditto only copies the base Pokemon if the Pokemon is already Dynamaxed.
 
I have a couple of things to say.

First of all, I think Dynamaxing is definitely broken. Here's what it does in a nutshell:
  • double the Pokémon's HP
  • make attacks stronger (not quite as strong as Z-moves but close), allowing them to break through Protect
  • crazy secondary effects depending on the type of the attack (weather, terrain, stat boosts, etc.)
  • no item required so you can still hold an item unlike Mega Evolution or Z-moves
  • negates choice-lock from items
  • any Pokémon on your team can do it
This is everything what sparked the discussion about banning Z-Moves (unpredictability, ability to get past checks, etc.) but exponentially worse, so I think discussion about a potential Dynamax ban should absolutely be a priority.

HO seems to be running rampant in this preliminary unbalanced stage of the metagame which has led me to believe that (Scarf) Ditto is almost mandatory on any team at the moment. It is one of the very few checks to current top threats like (Dynamax) Barraskewda, Gyarados, Hawlucha, Excadrill, etc. and it also revenge kills (or even reverse sweeps) all the dangerous Ghost-types we have right now (Polteageist, Dragapult, Gengar, etc.), as well as other threats like Hydreigon. Ditto really strikes me as a must-have Pokémon right now (which to me isn't a good sign about the health of the metagame but I know it's very early).

Rain has worked very well for me for now. People said rain would be dead this generation as the best abusers were cut from the game, but Barraskewda (insanely busted), Ludicolo and Qwilfish (or even Seismitoad) seem to have filled this hole quite well. Pelipper and Ferrothorn are also still around after all. The fact that Dynamax Water-type attacks set rain (as well as the fact that Barraskewda's stats and coverage are busted, especially when Dynamaxed) is what really makes this archetype stand out to me. This is what I've been using for now.

Galarian Corsola is also something that seems to have went under the radar prior to this ladder coming out. Eviolite makes it very bulky and it has access to very useful moves like Strength Sap, Will-O-Wisp and Stealth Rock. Jellicent seems to also be solid with its newly gained Strength Sap.
 
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Eve

formerly Ezaphs
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I have a couple of things to say.

First of all, I think Dynamaxing is definitely broken. Here's what it does for those still unaware:
  • double the Pokémon's HP
  • make all attacks stronger (not quite as strong as Z-moves but close), allowing them to break through Protect
  • crazy secondary effects depending on the type of attack (weather, terrain, stat boosts, etc.)
  • no item required so you can still hold an item unlike Mega Evolution or Z-moves
  • negates choice-lock from items while retaining their positive effects
  • any Pokémon on your team can do it
This is everything what sparked the discussion about banning Z-Moves (unpredictability, ability to get past checks, etc.) but exponentially worse, so I think discussion about a potential Dynamax ban should absolutely be a priority.

HO seems to be running rampant in this preliminary unbalanced stage of the generation which has led me to believe that (Scarf) Ditto is almost mandatory on any team at the moment. It is one of the very few checks to current top threats like (Dynamax) Barraskewda, Gyarados, Hawlucha, Excadrill, etc. and it also revenge kills (or even reverse sweeps) all the dangerous Ghost-types we have right now (Polteageist, Dragapult, Gengar, etc.), as well as other threats like Hydreigon. Ditto really strikes me as must-have Pokémon right now (which to me isn't a good sign about the health of the metagame but I know it's very early).

Rain has worked very well for me for now. People said rain would be dead this generation as the best abusers were cut from the game, but Barraskewda (insanely busted), Ludicolo and Qwilfish (or even Seismitoad) seem to have filled this hole quite well. Pelipper and Ferrothorn are also still around after all. The fact that Dynamax Water-type attacks set rain (as well as the fact that Barraskewda's stats and coverage are busted, especially when Dynamaxed) is what really makes this archetype stand out to me.

Galarian Corsola is also something that seems to have went under the radar prior this ladder coming out. Eviolite makes it very bulky and it has access to very useful moves like Strength Sap and Will-o-Wisp. Jellicent seems to also be solid with its newly gained Strength Sap.
Ok so
doubling the pokemon's hp also means that every team can have a mon twice as bulky to respond to the opponent's dynamax if they so wish. This is a very big deal and one of the many things that imo keeps Dynamax as a gimmick in check- it provides its own counterplay. Z-Moves provide 0 defensive utility in response to themselves (unless you count, like, Z-Haze).

The issue imo is specific abusers, similarly to Z-Moves- ban Gyarados and maybe a few others and you'll have a perfectly playable Dynamax metagame! No reason to ban an entire mechanic for a few mons using it too well.

Ditto doesn't answer Hawlucha due to holding a Choice Scarf and therefore not getting Unburden. Also for anyone looking for more varied counterplay to top threats, try Prankster Grimmsnarl or Mimikyu. Or the Corsola you mention later on.

Rain is really good for sure, Barraskewda is in my "maybe a few others" list.

Corsola 4 OU
 
I have a couple of things to say.

(SPOILER: He had a lot of things to say)
On top of all that, it's also worth noting that Choice brings all non-Fight non-Poison moves to ABOVE Z-Moves by 10 base power, effectively, while LO brings it dang near, and the fact that you have multiple options is also crazy. Z-Moves restricted you to one type, so you had to make the Z-Crystal choice count.

As someone who has been outright avoiding the meta due to the insanity that is Dynamax, I can't say much more than what has been already said though.
 
:Aegislash: + :Hydreigon:

Very good core since they both combine resist everything.

Honestly Aegislash feels really easy to punish right now. Probably because its a really bad abuser of Dynamaxing because of its speed. Still pretty great but the nerfs it recieved this gen with base stats and king's shield makes it much more manageable imo.

Also Ditto feels required on every team right now because of how ridiculously easy it is for a dynamaxed pokemon to snowball teams.
 

Colonel M

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By the way I highly suggest reading this post from talah because a lot of things have changed from yesterday:
not a question but i assume people will be asking a lot of stuff that could be summed up easily;

PS has a lot, and I mean a lot of inaccuracies, because they
1) need to be coded properly, which takes a lot of work and i assure u ppl are on it
2) need to be researched and tested in-game before proper implementation

for example, yesterday, Dynamax was significantly stronger than it is currently(whether it's too strong is a different discussion that we don't need to have here), which messed things up a lot and a lot of questions abt it popped up

so keep that in mind, and shift through other threads before randomly posting here and burying others
Ditto doesn't answer Hawlucha due to holding a Choice Scarf and therefore not getting Unburden.
While it doesn't answer Hawlucha, it still answers others like Barraskewda and Excadrill.
 
Ive only gotten limited experience but it seems like hyper offense is super popular at the moment. I've also run across a good number of dual screen teams and teams that us terrains via Dynamax. Additionally, I regardless of how crazily hyped and crazily looked down upon (after move pool reveal) dragapult was, I find this mon to be a pain in the ass to deal with. It can run some potent sets, like DD, choice items, LO. But I'm mostly scared of the mixed DD. There are definite counters and checks to it but it's really hard to deal with it when I don't have some bulky ass fairies or something. That speed tier is just...something.

How is everyone else's thoughts regarding Dragapult?

side note: Gyarados is strong AF.
 

Ereshkigal

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I've been messing around with Rain and I have to say it's become a favorite play style of mine so far. Perhaps due in part to how crazy Gyarados is looking. So far I've been using a set that looks like:

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Power Whip
- Bounce

Is that optimal? I dunno, it's hard to say at this point, but it really has been smacking things around. Even independent of the rain, it's just a big powerful Dragon Dance sweeper. Power Whip is to hit other water types (Seismitoad has been common) but the real jewel of the set is Bounce. It has power comparable to Z-Fly but it also boosts speed, and a +2 Gyarados is a scary propsect, and it's why I feel a little more comfortable going Adamant. I haven't faced many Toxapex/Ferrothorn cores yet so I can imagine EQ becoming superior over Power Whip (or even Waterfall perhaps) but I do find Gyara fits nicely in a core with Ferrothorn, Pelipper and other rain sweepers like Barraskewda.
Yes this thing while dynamaxed after 1 dragon dance is beyond stupid. I've been playing a little bit in the ladder with a ferro/toxa core and oh god this thing can just obliterate through practically anything. But they usually run moxie and eq because you don't really need power whip because of the sheer force of max fly. You can be sure you will get +1 spe AND a moxie boost when you click this move making your opponent face a +2/+2 gyarados dynamaxed. This mechanic can just make you win any game even if you're behind (even if you've nearly lost if your opponent make a suboptimal play). So I really think this should be quickbanned or at least suspected in the coming days because there is really few counterplays to it.
 

Indigo Plateau

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As a general reminder, please do not post one liners. I encourage all conversation so long as its on topic and isn't fluff. I'll do my best to delete posts that lack content, and if you feel that your post was unjustly deleted (or you just want to add more to it), feel free to PM me or just post again with more details
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
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Hello everybody! Former big man behind SWSH Speculatory here! Lemme drop my opinions on the meta and some pressing questions.


1. Is Dynamax Broken?
1573929530021.png

Nah, I don't think so. I see people say it's even worse than Z-Moves, but honestly I think the HP boost and Max Guard can be used as counterplay. It has lower overall BP, you can bait out Dmax at the wrong time for a suboptimal user, so on and so forth. With that said, my words may not convince everyone, so I'm gonna offer a proposal here.

1573929530021.png
You see this guy? This is Gyarados, and as you may know, he is probably - no, definitely the best Dynamax abuser in OU. One Dragon Dance is all it takes a lot of the time to wipe entire teams unless you have a faster scarfer or Rotom-Wash. Things could change, but considering how far back my experience goes speculatory-wise and seeing the meta, he is probably the prime candidate for a suspect test, maybe even an outright quickban.

1573929685103.png
This here is Hawlucha. He's fast and has an absurd Dynamax combo of STAB Max Knuckle and Max Airstream. With the addition of Close Combat, it is now easier than ever to activate Unburden, and he finds himself being quite splashable on many offensive builds.

These two are the best Dynamax abusers, no doubt. So how about this: Let's suspect/ban these two first since they are the ones who benefit and cause the most damage with Dynamax. Then if we wait a bit and the mechanic is still causing trouble, we can move on to a suspect of Dynamax as a whole. And if it gets banned then, we can free Lucha and Gyara again. Sound good? Alright then, let's move on.

2. Is Aegislash Manageable?
1573929896181.png

For the unitiated, not only has Aegislash gotten all its 150 stats in both forms reduced to 140, but King's Shield's Attack drop has been reduced from -2 to -1. With that in mind, could it actually be not broken this time? Personally, it's hard to say. King's Shield's Attack drop is still very useful, but now it can't debilitate or cause 50/50s quite as well as it once could, especially not against Swords Dance sweepers like Bisharp. In conjunction with the bulk drop in Shield form, it no longer can easily carve favorable positions for itself like it could in Gens 6 and 7. And that's not even going into Dynamaxing punching through King's Shield partially! Overall, considering these nerfs and there being bigger fish to fry like Gyarados, I think it's worth giving Aegislash more of a chance this time around.

3. What About The New Pokemon?
1573930378954.png


Now lemme go over some of my favorite new Pokemon, as well as the ones which seem most threatening overall.

1573930408496.png
Barraskewda has risen up as the new face of rain alongside Pelipper, and it's not hard to see why. 123 Attack and 136 Speed with Swift Swim is as lethal as it sounds, and despite the pure Water type it gets some deadly coverage like Close Combat, Drill Run, Crunch, Poison Jab and Psychic Fangs, as well as priority in Aqua Jet. Thankfully it doesn't get Swords Dance, and the pure typing hampers its offensive capabilities a bit while not being able to really be taken advantage of defensively due to very mediocre 61/60/50 bulk. That said, don't sleep on Barraskewda!

1573930566412.png
In a tier filled with hard hitters, Galarian Darmanitan is one of the most nuclear of them all. Choice Scarf can shred through just about any team lacking good defensive options courtesy of the amazing Gorilla Tactics and powerful Ice/Fire coverage with U-turn. That said, it suffers from being exceedingly linear: Once you've faced a Galarian Darmanitan, you've faced them all. There's been hype for Zen Mode and Choice Band sets, but I have yet to see either of those in action.

1573930847061.png
The irony of a Ghost-type bleached coral Pokemon refusing to die aside, Galarian Corsola is up there with Toxapex and Ferrothorn as one of the best defensive options in the tier. Strength Sap and Eviolite truly is a really hard-to-break combo, and it even gets Stealth Rocks to wear down the opposition.

And now for some less hyped-up/overall viable choices I personally have been enjoying:

1573931072130.png
This mon is a really cool fat breaker with Heavy Duty Boots. You don't even need to worry about phasing or Unaware, Fire Lash does the work for you and Leech Life keeps you healthy. When Gyarados gets inevitably banned, he's gonna get a big viability boost, trust me. Just watch out for Toxapex!

Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Lash
- Will-O-Wisp
- Leech Life
- Power Whip


1573931295823.png
What if Tapu Lele wasn't busted? That's the question Indeedee answers. Scarf on this little guy is legit flames af for taking on offensive teams, and Mystical Fire is the kind of coverage its Tapu ancestor would've killed for, and it even has Trick to cripple checks like Ferrothorn. At the same time, its Psychic Surge is great for supporting your own attackers like Galarian Darmanitan and Gyarados! Unfortunately the utter inability to dent Tyranitar + Excadrill cores knocks it down a few pegs. Still, try it out, he's a cool mon. Just remember to pick the Male form, Female is more defensively inclined stat-wise and not as good overall for Psychic Surge abuse as a result.

Indeedee (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire
- Trick


4. Other Pokemon Thoughts
1573931649455.png
Durant is MAD slept on, it's not even funny. I am admittedly guilty of not trying it a whole lot, but Hustle with Choice Scarf and a titanic arsenal of Max Moves including Max Knuckle and Max Steelspike sounds NASTY, especially considering Scizor isn't around to poop on the party. Fear the ant

1573931744887.png
Eiscue is garbage. Do not use it.

1573932708961.png
1573932725648.png
This mon is 100% wack. Galarian Corsola may better overall, but this guy can hold items aside from Eviolite, has Taunt, higher speed and Water Absorb to cuck mons like Barraskewda.

So Generally Speaking...
I'm having a lot of fun with this meta! That could just be the new toy syndrome and within a month I'll be bitching again about whatever becomes top tier this time making things stale in the vein of Lando-T rants, but right now it's already way better than USUM OU imo with heaps more variety. It's definitely a shake-up, you can say that much at least! Hopefully it grows and prospers in the months to come.
 
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Ok so
doubling the pokemon's hp also means that every team can have a mon twice as bulky to respond to the opponent's dynamax if they so wish. This is a very big deal and one of the many things that imo keeps Dynamax as a gimmick in check- it provides its own counterplay. Z-Moves provide 0 defensive utility in response to themselves (unless you count, like, Z-Haze).
It doesnt provide its own counterplay because the pokemon that dynamaxed first always has the advantage

If u dynamax second youll always be in a worse spot because of the secondary effects already activated, for example terrain or weather will be summoned that boosts their coverage move up, or have +1 offenses which means its harder to take hits from or they have +1 defense making them harder to revenge

People keep saying it has lower bp than z moves are forgetting u can run LIFE ORB, it lasts 3 turns and it summons weathers, terrains which give you psuedo stab boost on ur second turn using it

2. Is Aegislash Manageable?View attachment 206630
For the unitiated, not only has Aegislash gotten all its 150 stats in both forms reduced to 140, but King's Shield's Attack drop has been reduced from -2 to -1. With that in mind, could it actually be not broken this time? Personally, it's hard to say. King's Shield's Attack drop is still very useful, but now it can't debilitate or cause 50/50s quite as well as it once could, especially not against Swords Dance sweepers like Bisharp. In conjunction with the bulk drop in Shield form, it no longer can easily carve favorable positions for itself like it could in Gens 6 and 7. And that's not even going into Dynamaxing punching through King's Shield partially! Overall, considering these nerfs and there being bigger fish to fry like Gyarados, I think it's worth giving Aegislash more of a chance this time around.
I think its worth mentioning it loses toxic, which is a huge loss for the incredibly disgusting sub toxic set which beat alot of its counters such as hippowdon, mandibuzz, milotic and such

View attachment 206637The irony of a Ghost-type bleached coral Pokemon refusing to die aside, Galarian Corsola is up there with Toxapex and Ferrothorn as one of the best defensive options in the tier. Strength Sap and Eviolite truly is a really hard-to-break combo, and it even gets Stealth Rocks to wear down the opposition.
Corsola is shaping up to be a much better mon than its evolution ironically, and im glad its getting recognition since its my favourite mon since gen 2

Just wanted to add that this is the first time we see cursed body utilised on a defensive mon, it activates surprisingly often which can force ur opponent out if it disables their strongest stab

It can 1v1 almost every physical attacker in the tier and it LOVES toxic and knock off distribution being very limited right now

Unfortunately it has its fair of weaknesses. Sub shuts it down way too hard, and the lack of good special walls in this tier means nasty plot hydreigon and gengar get to come in almost for free and get to spam attacks vs corsolas team
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 211-250 (65.1 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 144-170 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Its special bulk isnt half bad either honestly, it can take a special hit if it needs to scout for example

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 84-99 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

244 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 168-200 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 151-178 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO

Ill cover Hatterene, Obstagoon and Eldegoss in a future post, theyre all a little underwhelming (hatterene being the best of them) but they all have a unique niche we havent seen before

Corvinight great, Barraskewda strong, Indeedee cool Lele replacement, Centiskorch bad, Copperajah bad, Frosmoth bad, Orbeetle bad, Dragapult decent, Sirfetchd bad, Eldegoss almost bad, Hatterene decent, Obstagoon okay, Pincurchin bad, Cinderace too good, Rillaboom great, Intelleon Meh

#BanDynamax
 
I genuinely believe the price to keep Dynamax as a mechanic isn't worth it and it should be banned. Gyarados and Hawlucha aside, stuff like Ditto basically turns entire matches around with very little effort due to Dynamax ignoring Choice Lock if you use it before you get locked into a move so any opponent setting up a fast win condition has to pretty much run substitute or risk getting revenge killed by a Ditto who will simply become that mon+1 without any drawbacks and having been in both sides of this situation I can safely say it's not fun on either case.
Overall this mechanic will cause a lot of mons that are completely manageable without it to get banned for the trade off being keeping otherwise mediocre sweepers who absolutely have to use this mechanic to become strong, and this will pretty much extend to every tier.

Aegislash seemed a lot more manageable but I'm pretty sure it's just the contrast of the metagame not being too kind to it. Max Moves bypassing Kings Shield without any drawbacks makes it lose a lot of power, I guess not having Toxic also makes it more manageable.

Mew is basically Deoxys-D right now, though I feel like hazard stacking became a lot harder with Excadrill and the rapid spin buff, not many ghosts used in offense at all want to risk switching into an Excadrill quake.
 
How is everyone else's thoughts regarding Dragapult?
I think Dragapult isn't THAT great because it's movepool is pretty odd, with it's only ghost stab being phantom force. in all honesty clefable just nukes this thing, and i've seen quite a bit of clefable in the 8 ladder games i played LOL but overall i think it's held back a lot by its movepool alone.


1. Is Dynamax Broken?
hell yea it is. being able to dynamax a scarfer or band or specs and being able to keep the boost while being allowed to use your other moves is OP. it's not as busted in OU than in lower tiers like NFE or LC but it's still pretty wild.
another point is i do believe dynamax is hella broken because of the point yung dramps made with hawlucha. hawlucha's typing makes it's dynamax form absolutely fucking deadly and still could push past mons like aegislash. dynamax is like having 3 turns worth of z moves and if we could do that in gen 7 z moves def would have been banned and i don't see why it shouldnt be banned here lol

:durant: ah yes. this man with hustle and i believe max moves can't miss so this mon is kinda busted too.

nice 600 posts even
 
Apart from agreeing with banning Dynamax, I just want to say that out of the new Mons, Corviknight is the best one by far. Its what Celesteela and Skarmory never could become. Its the best Defoguer thanks to its godly typing + Pressure. This is the set I use:

(Corviknight) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Iron Head
- Bulk Up / U-Turn

Bulk Up helps him to boost his physical Stats and act as a win condition in Stall teams. U-Turn helps to bring Dugtrio if I use that.

There are lots of other Sets that work with the Steel Crow:
-Same set but PDef.
-Pure BU + STABs.
-BU + Taunt.
-BU + Sub to abuse Pressure even more.
-Taunt + Sub.
-BU + Power Trip to win mirror match-ups.
-Dual Screen + U-Turn.
-Tailwind + U-Turn + Taunt.
-Spite to consume even more PPs.

He learns NP too, but I don,t think that is viable.

So, use Corviknight, he is the best. Also, I now have to confess that the whole post was made so I could show for the first time the new medal and trophy from my signature.
 
(Posted this in the wrong thread by mistake; hopefully I got it right this time)

The more I play this meta the more I feel as though Dynamaxing is incredibly unhealthy for the metagame.

I'm all for offensive playstyles coming to the forefront, but this feature effectively gives anything your heart desires three turns of nothing but Z-Moves with absolutely ludicrous secondary effects that range from completely changing the weather to setting terrain to giving a Dynamaxed sweeper even more boosts. The only actual "counterplay" to Dynamaxing is to run shit like Red Card Eiscue or Mimikyu or to threaten a weakened Dynamaxed sweeper with something like Choice Band Durant. Everything else becomes a glorified 50/50 that either results in burned Dynamax turns where something is still doing a ton of damage instead of claiming three mons or you outright losing to a single prediction instead.

It gives offensive stuff way too much versatility, too. The difference between a Waterfall/Bounce/Power Whip Gyarados and a Waterfall/Earthquake/Power Whip Gyarados is absolutely huge in practice and guessing wrong even once can result in your entire team being swept because of how incredible these Dynamax moves' secondary effects are. This also applies somewhat to Excadrill, but in reality any offensive threat can abuse the everloving shit out of this feature and it's pushed to a whole new extreme by the fact that you get three of them and any Pokemon on either team can abuse it at the player's discretion. If I don't wanna blow my Dynamax on Gyarados I can still maintain a powerful sweeper and just blow it on my Dragapult with a million and one different coverage options instead.

I feel like as long as this feature remains legal we'll be banning stuff by the droves because basically anything with even remotely decent offensive stats can abuse the shit out of Dynamaxing. If Gyarados and Excadrill get banned for being too good with Dynamaxing, what happens to Dragapult and other sweepers that can't abuse the feature quite as well as the former two?

This feature seems almost blatantly broken as fuck. It really, really needs to be assessed very carefully because of the combination of different factors that go into why this shit is as insane as it is.
 

Colonel M

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When using Defog Corviknight you really should use Body Press IMO. While Bisharp will be rare without Knock Off (maybe never relevant), you can easily punish Bisharp trying to get +2 Attack with Body Press. I feel Iron Head isn't worth it other than you stand a better chance against Clefable that use Stealth Rock.

It's also good for Excadrill but I didn't want to mention it so fuck Jordy
 
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1573937865450.png
Hydreigon: I'm sure people are going to throw stones at me for saying this but I'm finding hydreigon not as good as I thought he was going to be - broken. It's really good against stall and slower teams but I'm finding large majority of the teams I fight to be hyper offense wth some insanely fast things. Its speed is pretty lacking. It's still pretty good when it works. I am not too sure about other sets like the scarfer but everything seems to be really REALLY fast so far.

1573937852830.png
: Dynamax Gyarados is just so scary. I'm usually trying to have a couple checks to it when building a team, only to get messed up by some other Dynamax mon. What are some good mons that hard stops this thing while being amazing outside of being a check/counter?

: Definitely not broken as I first thought after seeing its stats for the first time. But definitely not "trash" as some people ought to make it seem after its move pool was leaked. Just the natural speed with good attack and decent spA, backed with good special moves, make it rather annoying to deal with. It's also a REALLY strong Dynamax user, albeit not as strong as something like Gyara. I'm thinking about trying out mixed DD since it seems like the Koreans that typically follow Japanese trends are starting to really like mixed though they are, like we are, still salty about the poor physical move pool. I'm actually glad we have the baton pass clause since this thing would've been the biggest abuser of it if not for the clause. This thing is already considered a huge threat in 3v3 singles, or 63 singles format as the Koreans and Japanese like to refer to as.
 
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Adding on to the Corviknight discussion, this is the set i've been using (got to me 1400, I intend to play some more tomorrow).

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Roost

It's fat enough to take hits from any defensive mon, can outstall aegislash w pressure, can outstall unaware w pressure and can check stuff like dragapult, mimikyu, rillaboom etc. More importantly after a few bulkups and (preferably under a sub), you can just DMAX to break through soft checks like the Rotoms with max brave bird all the while accumulating speed boosts to let you sweep after dmax is gone. It cant be revenged by ditto either as it takes around 10-15 from ditto's BB and just subs up on it. The EV spread could probably be worked on to get some crucial breakpoints for the Sub, but I wasn't in the mood for that. I do think that being fast is important though.

All in all, I knew this mon was gonna be good - I even said it was arguably better than both Skarm and Steela as a defensive mon, but it's so much more than that. With it's great overall bulk and amazing movepool this thing is probably one of (if not THE best) mons in OU rn.

View attachment 206669: Dynamax Gyarados is just so scary. I'm usually trying to have a couple checks to it when building a team, only to get messed up by some other Dynamax mon. What are some good mons that hard stops this thing while being amazing outside of being a check/counter?

: Definitely not broken as I first thought after seeing its stats for the first time. But definitely not "trash" as some people ought to make it seem after its move pool was leaked. Just the natural speed with good attack and decent spA, backed with good special moves, make it rather annoying to deal with. It's also a REALLY strong Dynamax user, albeit not as strong as something like Gyara. I'm thinking about trying out mixed DD since it seems like the Koreans that typically follow Japanese trends are starting to really like mixed though they are, like we are, still salty about the poor physical move pool. I'm actually glad we have the baton pass clause since this thing would've been the biggest abuser of it if not for the clause. This thing is already considered a huge threat in 3v3 singles, or 63 singles format as the Koreans and Japanese like to refer to as.
I think the combination of Jellicent/Ghost Corsola + Washtom should check any Gyarados set - the issue being you need to guess correctly. Corsola checks 3 attacks gyara really well as max invested lives a +1 max waterfall from full and saps it to get back to full HP. Then you can just willow it and Gyara is out of commision. Gyara can opt for sub/taunt to break corsola, but that set loses out on a coverage move so it likely gets walled by washtom because of it (I don't think gyara can cut any of it's stabs for taunt/sub). I haven't really used Jelli, but it gets Sap + Wisp as well and has water absorb to better check the other rain abusers (barraskewda etc).

As for dragapult, I'ts been a bit dissapointing due to it's bad physical movepool, but mixed DD Life Orb (does dmax even get boosted by LO?) with darts, fireblast, steelwing could work to break through steels and fairies that want to prevent you from spamming darts.

EDIT: apologies for the double post by the way
 
Initial thoughts on gen 8 meta/threats
I'm not going to go too much into dynamaxing, I know most people don't love it. Sometimes I think there's counterplay but other times it just seems meta-breaking
Arena trap/stag: Both are pretty dumb. Maybe not as potent on stall as gen 7 but it still limits teambuilding. I think a ban on it will be likely but we'll see
Ditto is absolutely anti-meta, being able to dynamax and pick moves while outspeeding is massive

Threats/Non-threats (there are a lot):
Darmanitan Galar- The perfect choice user. It's ability boosts its attack but you lock into one move, so band/scarf both work incredibly. This thing doesnt really have any checks, you rely on prediction or u-turn will chip your team super fast
Toxapex- Basically as annoying as it was in gen 7. Tspikes are pretty good right now. I prefer phys defense for sure, paired with a shuca in most cases. Without shuca darm and dugtrio threaten way too much
Ferrothorn- Gamefreak won't let this thing die will they. Yes, it's still good :eyes:
Ditto- See above notes
Corviknight- Simulataneously a defensive juggernaut and offensive THREAT. It's coverage is pretty lackluster, so a lot of people opt for bulk up in last slot. Even without attack invest, a couple bulk ups, then dynamaxing to gain speed boosts makes this seemingly passive mon super effective in the late game. Also dynamaxing means hawlucha is walled nicely
Corsola Galar- See someone's post above. This mon with eviolite reaches insane defenses. I've had times where it stalled out guts obstagoon because of strength sap. As nice as this mon is (one of the few that check toxtricity decently), sap isnt perfect recovery. It leaves it super weak to hatterene, which chips and magic bounces strength sap for days
Hatterene- Don't look now, but this is a great mon in the meta. It's slow speed means it comes in on ferrothorn and sets up on it. It also walls corsola for days, and makes all passive mons look silly. Is life dew viable on it? I think so. 31 recovery after lefties isnt AWFUL, and it does help the 1v1 mu vs passive mons. I've been running it, and while sometimes i hate it I think overall its a decent 4th move
Pyukumuku/Quag- Having one is pretty important for pure stall, they do what they have done in previous gens. You can't keep them in on dynamax mons, though
Bisharp- Webs seem to be pretty decent right now, and bisharp just has a lot of good matchups
On the note of starters:
Cinderace- not worth using without protean
Intelleon- sniper is meh, I wouldn't rec
Rillaboom- Pretty dope scarf user with wood hammer, uturn, and grass terrain (sets up hawlucha super nicely)
Hawlucha- BIG THREAT. Ditto obviously loses the 1v1. With so many offensive threats having this thing as speed control is nice af
Aegislash (banworthy?)- I dont think so. Ive never had much trouble with, lot revenges right now. On the other hand its pretty unpredictable so im not sold on any argument regarding it
Dragapult- This thing is super scary just because of its unpredictability. If you think its the physical set, you'll probably lose to its equally effective special set. Uturn is nice for the special set, and just overall a super solid choice. It is walled by fairies and stuff, so not sure if itd be considered for a ban. Also, phantom force is pretty ass.
Frosmoth- Not really worth using imo. Boots make it somewhat viable I guess
Gyarados- People have EXTENSIVE thoughts on this mon. Yes, it is the best dynamaxer by a long shot from what I've seen. Ditto basically always gets the reverse sweep on it, but that doesn't mean it ain't broken
Hydreigon/Gengar- Both unsurprisingly super dangerous with nasty plot up. They're pretty dumb but w/e
Indeedee- I dont know what to think abt this yet. I don't think its top tier by any means, but it can set up lucha and threaten offensively with specs
Pelipper- *insert obligatory rain setter*
Tyranitar- see above with sand
Excadrill- Weather is kinda dumb, like you need a corviknight/ditto/rot-wash for this thing or youll be losing a few mons most likely
Rotom-wash- still a very good wall
Polteageist- has hard time setting up and can be revenged, but somewhat scary after a shell smash
Toxtricity- Pretty bad but very hard to wall. Dugtrio makes it irrelevant
Barraskewda- By far the best rain sweeper. Awesome power and pretty good coverage after a dynamax. Obligatory on rain and another mon where dynamax seems dumb broke

If anyone is curious to see some replays from the meta here ya go (basic stall I used to peak ladder day 1)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1010767630
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1010563662-q3id4gh3371ug4xyhs0wq7czdvknp8epw

Heres a team I'm currently 25-1 with (it's just thick stuff with galar darm as a dumb breaker)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1010873524-du6y4h4s0j9ne9r9rh2ve4s1ig422tnpw

The meta is obviously going to change a LOT, there's a ton of stuff that needs to be looked at. Regardless, I think some of these mons will be very good with or without dynamax, as many are not suited to use it well anyhow
 
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