Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3

:corsola: :dugtrio-alola: :stunfisk: :linoone: :raichu-alola: :persian-alola:
I don't see much what they can do, maybe we see some gimmick with Alola-Raichu and Pincurchin due to Alola-Raichus ability on electric-terrain.
But otherwise I just dont think they will offer much for Ou-purposes and thus will drop down tier after tier
I agree with all but alolan dugtrio. I was thinking the other day how it found success in Let's GO as a stealth rock suicide lead to hanks to its steel typing and high speed. Planning to experiment with the possibility of it in SS OU once Showdown allows them to be tested despite Excadrill existing.
 
:sm/kyurem-black:
The B stands for Broken (Kyurem-Black) @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Dragon Dance

Yeah, this thing is busted. It has the tools to handle pretty much all of its checks and counters from last gen:
- Steel-types? Corviknight is 2HKO'd by +1 Fusion Bolt, Excadrill gets wrecked by +1 Icicle Spear (assuming you land at least 3 hits), +1 LO Fusion Bolt 2HKOs Aegislash and even the mighty Ferrothorn is 2HKO'd by +1 LO Icicle Spear. Melmetal is the only Steel-type that can stop you.
- Fairy-types? None of them can switch in. A +1 Icicle Spear or an unboosted Iron Head will 2HKO most of them, and at +1 Iron Head is a clean OHKO.
- Faster revenge killers? Yeah, I'll give you that, but good luck outspeeding a +1 Kyurem in the first place (and god help you if it manages to get to +2).
- Hazards? Not if you're running Boots.
EDIT: I'm stupid, it doesn't learn Earthquake so I guess Melmetal counters. Still fucking scary though.

:sm/aegislash:
Devil Sword (Aegislash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- King's Shield

Aegislash just got a billion times more annoying. None of the passive Pokemon that used to check it (i.e. Mandibuzz) like being statused, and it can still nuke the less bulky stuff with Shadow Ball. It's annoying in NatDex and chances are it'll be just as annoying here.

:sm/zeraora:
Speedy Killer (Zeraora) @ Choice Band
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

Is this a bad meme? I don't care. Fastest viable mon in the tier, good coverage options, hits hard... It's pretty much Specs Dragapult but faster and with more power.

:sm/blastoise:
Smashing (Blastoise) @ White Herb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def/252 SpA/252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere
- Shell Smash

People like to say this is outclassed by Cloyster, but at least Blastoise is faster and won't die to basically any special attack. Also, Blastoise has Aura Sphere to 2HKO Ferrothorn.
 
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Colonel M

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:sm/kyurem-black:
The B stands for Broken (Kyurem-Black) @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
- Earthquake/Iron Head
- Dragon Dance
If someone finds a true counter for Kyurem-B, feel free to let me know.
The counter is it doesn't learn Earthquake.

Also Blastoise will have a hard time bypassing Toxpaex, so I don't really see it doing much in OU.

Obligatory Mew / Clefable getting a lot of their toys back make them a lot more threatening. Roost will be nice on Hydreigon too since the amount of Dark and Ghost resists remain scarce, but Band and Specs Aegislash have ways to Cheese around things.
 
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terrakion.png

A lot of people talk about old mons getting their old moves or new mons like Melmetal, Keldeo, Jirachi and all, but I almost see no one talk about Terrakion, I personally think it can prove itself to be one of the bigger threats in the meta with a SD + 3 Attacks set equipped with a Shed Shell to escape Dugtrio.
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 324-382 (100 - 117.9%)
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Sylveon: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 346-408 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 76+ Def Corviknight: 316-373 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o: 240-283 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 232-274 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

necro.png

Maybe Necrozma can be decent? An offensive rock setter with psychic/fire coverage is definitly not something bad, also as access to Power Gem/X-Scissor for Mandibuzz and Hydreigon/Tyranitar respectively, probably not the best of mons, but it can have its niche use.

jirachi.png

Jirachi will pretty much do the same thing as it always did except Dug/Arena Trap isn't banned and Pursuit's not a thing anymore, it's a good Scarf user that has access to new HWish, a decent rock setter that can be used as a pivot or could even make a good wish passer, I could also see some CM sets being used.

aegi.png
hydra.png
washtom.png
heattom.png

Good mons getting better options is obviously really good for them, Toxic Aegislash I feel like can be a huge threat as it can cripple its main check Mandibuzz could see it being used on Specs as a 4th move, or just go back to the old Sub+Toxic. Roost Hydreigon can prove itself to be good but only to make it a permanent check to Rotoms without having Wish support from Clef/Sylveon. Speaking about Rotoms, I think Toxic, Pain Split, and Defog are all really good additions, Pain Split and Defog are good support while checking stuff, but I think Toxic gotta be the better buff, especially for Rotom-Wash, I personally see a Sub+Toxic set being really efficient vs teams that lack Ferrothorn.

Other thoughts:
- Keldeo is okay but inconsistent with Toxapex/Dragapult/Seismitoad running around.
- Regular Kyurem is good, I feel like no one's talking about Specs and it might be better than SubRoost which is also good.
- Umbreon/Vaporeon are way better with Toxic back, but still pretty niche choices.
- Togekiss having Roost back might a thing to not forget.
- Knock Off Bisharp and Conkeldurr is obviously a great thing but I don't think it changes much for them.
- I want KB banned within the end of the day, it's broken and just really unhealthy.
 
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My 2 cents from playing a few games around ~1500 where I did nothing but selected Home Pokemon and crossed my fingers

Kyurem.png
This thing is absurd, has basically no checks after 1 DD. I'm surprised it wasn't instabanned considering Nat Dex OU banned it months ago

Melmetal.png

Both the Band and Assault Vest set felt really really good to me. The amount of damage this thing can pump out while acting as a Avalugg-esque physical wall is crazy. Double Iron also allows it to OHKO Sash Dugtrio and suicide leads which shouldn't be glossed over.

Zeraora.png

Zeraora was one of my favorite mons to use in USUM and it's still very fun here. Now that Z-Moves are gone I've found some decent success with Expert Belt due to its great mixed attack stats and coverage. Don't think its overpowered at all and fits well into OU

Haven't played around yet with SubTox Aegislash or Unaware Clefable but I suspect they'll be as good as they were before. Overall I think the meta will become more fun with the Home additions, at least it will once Kyurem-Broken goes home to Ubers.
 

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Ok, so I know that we aren’t supposed to discuss quickbans, or about other metas, but I think this would be the exception.
Kyurem-B has historically been held back from being Ubers due to its Movepool, and a lack of a reliable Ice STAB.
But now, Kyurem gets access to not only Icicle Spear, but also DRAGON DANCE.
I played the Beta back when the Nexus server hosted them, and everyone knew Kyurem-B was busted.
I am honestly surprise that this thing wasn’t banned on sight before home released for standard OU.
Hell, even ND OU quickbanned Kyurem-B, which has more options. And they banned it before Dynamax even.
The closest thing to a counter that is available is Rotom-H, which gets destroyed by Earth Power (thanks to Teravolt) and even just a LO Dragon Claw
252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 142-169 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO

But anyways, here are some exciting Veterans


Blastoise now has access to Shell Smash and Life Dew, the former making it a bulky set up sweeper with some kick, and the latter giving it some reliable recovery for defensive sets.

Keldeo is a Gen 5 classic, although wasn’t so hot in Gen 7, the removal of several Pokemon, and having a great Speed Tier, it definitely will make a mark here. Though, it does lack HP Electric and Grass

Like Keldeo, Terrakion is also a classic Gen 5 staple, that kind of fell off due to power creep, and especially with Kartana. But again, the removed Pokemon should mean it has less competition and walls than before.

Oh boy.
Heavy Duty Boots and Parting Shot.
Surprisingly, Incineroar still faces competition in this Meta (although it’s not as harsh as OU before) in the form of Cinderace. Having the best switching moves in the game, the second best switching move too, STAB Knock Off, Swampert like stats, and Intimidate will definitely let it stand out and possibly be better than Cinderace (for now)
 
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Timid Nature
-Freeze-Dry
-Draco Meteor
-Ice Beam
-Earth Power/Focus Blast
This thing has legitimately no good switch-ins in the current metagame. Freeze-Dry and Draco Meteor are self explainatory. Ice Beam is used to 2HKO physically defensive Ferrothorn, all Corviknight variants after SR, Clefable without full specially defensive EVs, and for a stronger Ice STAB in general once the Water types in the opposing teams are dead. Earth Power and Focus Blast are its Steel coverage; I think Earth Power is better overall because it hits Jirachi harder than any other move Kyurem can use, and is 100% accurate, however Focus Blast can be used if you want to hit Ferrothorn and Tyranitar harder, as well as nailing pesky Snorlax (still only a 2HKO though and that is if they have no AV).
 
My 2 cents from playing a few games around ~1500 where I did nothing but selected Home Pokemon and crossed my fingers

View attachment 222961
This thing is absurd, has basically no checks after 1 DD. I'm surprised it wasn't instabanned considering Nat Dex OU banned it months ago

View attachment 222962
Both the Band and Assault Vest set felt really really good to me. The amount of damage this thing can pump out while acting as a Avalugg-esque physical wall is crazy. Double Iron also allows it to OHKO Sash Dugtrio and suicide leads which shouldn't be glossed over.

View attachment 222965
Zeraora was one of my favorite mons to use in USUM and it's still very fun here. Now that Z-Moves are gone I've found some decent success with Expert Belt due to its great mixed attack stats and coverage. Don't think its overpowered at all and fits well into OU

Haven't played around yet with SubTox Aegislash or Unaware Clefable but I suspect they'll be as good as they were before. Overall I think the meta will become more fun with the Home additions, at least it will once Kyurem-Broken goes home to Ubers.
id agree except toxic/knock off meta is so blahh. Excited about the new Pokémon though like Zeraora
 
Also gonna note here and now that Kyurem-B may not have Earthquake, but this is what might make mixed sets fucking scarier since it can afford to run Earth Power alongside the other best moves, giving Kyurem-B a surprising amount of versatility, capable of smacking would be counters out if the opponent mispredicts the set. The combination of Fusion Bolt, Icicle Spear/Ice Beam/Freeze Dry, Earth Power, and even Draco Meteor/Outrage/Iron Head gives off a serious MixMence vibe with even scarier coverage. In the current state, I see Earth Power being more important than ever to breeze through the Rotoms (mostly Heat), Excadrill, Melmetal, and any other key mons, but those are the three that came to mind for me. I’m kinda on the fence about using a Dragon-Type move in a metagame where Clefable literally just gained Unaware and Softboiled again, so I think Iron Head might see more consistent use due to coverage, but I cannot deny that Draco Meteor is a nice one-off Nuke attack that can turn the tide of a battle at the right time.

Can we also talk about how Kyurem-B appreciates the Speed Decreep? Its speed is the same as Darmanitan. On a Pokémon that can boost it further on some sets. And a much better movepool—you see where I’m getting with this.

I’m thinking something like this:

Kyurem-B @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 172 Atk/84 SAtk/252 Spe
Nature: Naive
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Iron Head/Draco Meteor

The EV spread for Special Attack allows Kyurem-B to guarantee a 2HKO on Melmetal after Rocks while still being able to net Rotom-W every time also after Rocks (though the odds are still high without). With Rocks, Iron Head 2HKOs Unaware Max Defense Clefable 94% of the time. Fusion Bolt nets a 2HKO on Max Def Toxapex after rocks 86.7% of the time. Corviknight has no chance to switch into any variant, as this is the weakest on the Physical side, yet still 2HKOs. As a final note, for anybody fearing Choice Scarf Dracovish, Fishious Rend might take up to 49% off of you, but not only does the damage reduce significantly afterwards, you can destroy it with Icicle Spear. Kyurem-B also doubles as a non-Scarf Revenge Killer, but in either situation, Outrage is the big bad move to avoid.

The bad: This set invites Conkeldurr, who isn’t entirely threatened by this variant of Kyurem-B, avoiding every 2HKO, even after rocks, and can Drain Punch for a clean OHKO, which also heals anything Conkeldurr might’ve lost. Because Kyurem-B isn’t using Dragon Dance, Revenge Killing is made much easier from anything faster, but by that time, Kyurem would’ve likely torn a hole in the opposition. Max Special Defense Aegislash can also tank Earth Power in Shield Mode, but the likeliness of running into one with that EV spread is unlikely.

The alternative set:
Kyurem-B @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 Atk/40 SAtk/252 Spe
Nature: Naive
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Earth Power

Thanks to the significant return of Defog on hella good Pokémon like Rotom, Kyurem-B can forego the boots for a power boosting Life Orb, instead. The EV spread given guarantees that Earth Power 2HKOs 252/4 Aegislash holding either Choice Band or Leftovers 1 layer of Spikes, provided the SnS Pokémon of SnS doesn’t hold Air Balloon (EV spread can be slightly changed pending what Aegislash holds popular). Other than that, you hit everything harder at the cost of needing a bit more support for hazard removal. This also 2HKOs Conkeldurr, but Mach Punch with slight chip and Rocks can pick it off (Rocks and Spikes has a 56% chance to OHKO).

I won’t even mention Dragon Dance, everybody else has, but I hope people can figure out how Kyurem-B can be whatever, with or without, and easily oppress OU with 3 different sets without even trying thanks to having just the right tools and Icicle Spear acting as a mostly better Ice STAB now. Also, it still knows Roost, so...

This was posted on mobile, so forgive me for formatting issues.
 

MattL

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Melmetal has so much offensive and defensive value that I'll be interested to see how people work to support it. It has no recovery (aside from potentially Leftovers but that barely counts, or if you're running Resto-Chesto for some reason), but due to the fact that it beats so much of the metagame in a 1v1 scenario, I feel that it's the perfect recipient of Healing Wish support so that you'd essentially have 2 Melmetals. Previously we didn't have much that got Healing Wish, but Celebi and Jirachi, 2 new Pokemon Home additions, have it. Traditional Wish support from Pokemon like Sylveon could be helpful, although Melmetal's high HP makes it so you wouldn't recover as much as you'd like.

Knock Off is the best that it's ever been because it will always have 97.5 power and remove the item. Previously we had Mega Stones and Z-Crystals which lessed the impact that Knock Off had, but now it's more spammable. It was already one of the best moves in the last couple gens and it's only getting better.

Also, what's really interesting to me is how much metagame shift we're having and going to have in this generation. For example, in gen 7, we effectively had 2 metas: SM and USUM. Sure, stuff like the Zygarde ban changed the meta but not a significant amount. But in gen 8, I feel like we're going to have an unprecedented 5 distinctly different metas. The original meta, post-Dynamax ban, post-Pokemon Home release, post-Isle of Armor release, and post-Crown Tundra release. This thread isn't the place for theorymon or talking about the expansion packs, but it's just astonishing to me how almost every few months the meta has been and will be experiencing a massive shift.
 
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Just to make sure I get this right:
You can't pass transfer moves to any new pokémon right?
The daycare transfer method is ONLY for egg moves and not transfer only right?
Kinda sucks, I got a shiny Umbreon last year and been using it with Curse + Payback and wanted to switch it to Toxic + Protect.
But I guess I'd have to make a new Umbreon on an older game for that...
 
Back again and here is an Incineroar set I made

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot/U-turn
- Throat Chop/Knock Off (Edit: Didn’t realize Parting Shot was an egg move only, so you can only have Knock Off with U-turn)
- Flare Blitz
- Taunt/Will-O-Wisp

Incineroar is an excellent user of Intimidate, as seen with previous Gen’s Doubles, and here it can do pretty well. Thanks to its Fire/Dark typing, it can also tank Bisharp’s STABs, while threatening it out.

As a Fire type pivot, Heavy-Duty Boots are essential to Incineroar since it doesn’t need to rely on a Defogger as a teammate just to Pivot.

Parting Shot is an amazing tool, especially in conjunction with Intimidate, which can potentially half the Atk of anything. It will bring in many Pokemon in safely. And like I said before, Bisharp doesn’t want to switch into Incineroar either. U-turn is also an option if you have trouble against Taunt abusers.

Knock Off and Flare Blitz are just standard STAB moves. Former removes items and cripples the opponent, which is huge since Z-crystals and Mega Stones were removed. It also allows Incineroar to do something against bad match-ups like Toxapex or Dragapult. The Latter hits really hard, being able to cleanly 2HKO Corviknight with Max Physical Bulk, and potentially OHKO standard spreads after Stealth Rock.
196+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 76+ Def Corviknight: 306-362 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth

Taunt is great for disrupting walls and set up, putting the Pokemon you want Incineroar to pivot into. Something like preventing Toxapex from Hazing Blastoise while it sets up, preventing your Dragapult from being paralyzed, or preventing the opponent from setting up themselves. Will-O-Wisp is also an option to further cripple physical attackers and doing it permanently.

60 Speed EVs ensures that Incineroar outspeed uninvested Corviknight.
The remaining EVs lets Incineroar be as tanky as possible. Hitting hard and taking hard hits.
 
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Back again and here is an Incineroar set I made

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot/U-turn
- Throat Chop/Knock Off (Edit: Didn’t realize Parting Shot was an egg move only, so you can only have Knock Off with U-turn)
- Flare Blitz
- Taunt/Will-O-Wisp

Incineroar is an excellent user of Intimidate, as seen with previous Gen’s Doubles, and here it can do pretty well. Thanks to its Fire/Dark typing, it can also tank Bisharp’s STABs, while threatening it out.

As a Fire type pivot, Heavy-Duty Boots are essential to Incineroar since it doesn’t need to rely on a Defogger as a teammate just to Pivot.

Parting Shot is an amazing tool, especially in conjunction with Intimidate, which can potentially half the Atk of anything. It will bring in many Pokemon in safely. And like I said before, Bisharp doesn’t want to switch into Incineroar either. U-turn is also an option if you have trouble against Taunt abusers.

Knock Off and Flare Blitz are just standard STAB moves. Former removes items and cripples the opponent, which is huge since Z-crystals and Mega Stones were removed. It also allows Incineroar to do something against bad match-ups like Toxapex or Dragapult. The Latter hits really hard, being able to cleanly 2HKO Corviknight with Max Physical Bulk, and potentially OHKO standard spreads after Stealth Rock.
196+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 76+ Def Corviknight: 306-362 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth

Taunt is great for disrupting walls and set up, putting the Pokemon you want Incineroar to pivot into. Something like preventing Toxapex from Hazing Blastoise while it sets up, preventing your Dragapult from being paralyzed, or preventing the opponent from setting up themselves. Will-O-Wisp is also an option to further cripple physical attackers and doing it permanently.

60 Speed EVs ensures that Incineroar outspeed uninvested Corviknight.
The remaining EVs lets Incineroar be as tanky as possible. Hitting hard and taking hard hits.
Egg moves can be transferred through the day care. They are no longer exclusive to being "bred" in and are better compared to tutor moves.

So Parting Shot + Knock Off is legal.
 
i don't think anyone's talking about how good ferrothorn can potentially be. being immune to toxic and punishing knock off users in this new meta will prove to be a huge deal, and it is also a pretty solid check (ish) to kyurem b. i think it will prove to be an incredible defensive mon again, about as good as it was in gen 6/7, maybe even better
 
Ah well rain will be a so good this gen. With keldeo existing rain can now beat most of its former checks (ferrathorn and the toad). Only toxipex seems to work out as solution for now. But even that can be obliderated by dracovish in rain.
 
Seems like Clefable might have to be wary of being potentially crippled by Knock Off from Seismitoad, making it a tiny bit less reliable as a switch-in.
 
Been playing a fair bit with a few mons while also getting a view how other mons function in this gen, I guess I'll start:


I'm gonna be honest, I don't know if it's because I have a scarfer above base 95, Melmetal and/or defensive Toad (which at least two of those are almost on every team anyways)... But I think DD Kyurem-B is overrated/underwhelming. I haven't yet to lose to one DD Kyurem-B, because either Melmetal tanks and OHKOS with Double Bash, Toxic it with Toad or just revenge kill with Scarf Dragapult (which I have using for Zeraora). Sure, maybe something like Toad dies or Melmetal takes like 44% from +1 Fusion Bolt, but I just find it easy to deal it with already meta components such as Scarfers or Toad. I could see it being insane stacked with the likes of Dracovish, but at the point you're making yourself weaker to things like Scarf Dragapult and Hydreigon which got better honestly through these additions. Also Icicle Spear is just too unreliable without Skill Link I feel and Power Herb Freeze Shock either gets knocked off somewhere or you get a kill and left with a shit move afterwards (same with Icium back in SM).

I think the real thunder lies with Mixed LO Freeze-Dry, which just breaks common cores without needing to setup. Should it be suspect tested? Yeah, probably I could see the argument that it requires you to have a base 95+ scarfer or things like Melmetal on your team to check it well. Should it be quick-banned though? I honestly don't think so but that could just be me.



This thing is as solid as I hoped it would be, it just hits so hard. Dugtrio is annoying to it if it's locked into anything besides Double Bash, but it's not as hindered as say Terrakion is to Dugtrio. It's great bulk and offensive power allows it to beat many top tier mons such as Corviknight, Clefable and Toxapex even if you're locked into Double Bash, cause more than likely you're gonna flinch it to death or near it. It's bulk allows it to take on threats such +1 Kyurem-B, Aegislash, physical Dragapult and Zeraora in times of need. I think it's low-key busted, but we'll have to see where the meta ends up.



This mon has almost zero defensive counter play through it's SD set, I'm gonna be honest, it might be ban worthy if Dugtrio goes. Even without Shed Shell, I've been finding success through the SD Life Orb Edge/CC/EQ set, it just hits so hard. Defensive Toad only needs like 30% chip and it dies to +2 CC, and considering how much Toad needs to check that doesn't seem too hard. It's obviously revenge kill able much Kyurem-B, but unlike Kyurem-B I think that defensive counter-play just isn't there. I suspect a Phys Def Hippo resurgence in the future.



And thus, Toxic was bestowed and it's just as annoying/busted as it used to be. SubToxic is just gross as it allows it to break it's counter-play via Mandibuzz, Toad (physical sets), Umbreon etc. Corviknight does Pressure stall it though, so there's that I guess. I might need to be looked at in the future.



Hydreigon with the access of Roost is big threat, I could see it being one the best mons in the tier due to it having longevity now. I also found Scarf is even better now considering the importance of breaking +1 base 95 now. Overall, really good Pokemon, probably one of the best in OU.



This thing getting Toxic is a huge boon in breaking down Pokemon like Seismitoad as well putting Dragapult on a faster time than Wisp does. It also one of the few Pokemon that reliably checks Melmetal so I could see a Pain Split set in the future.



Venusaur is great! Great sun abuser which has been missing (with the exception of probably Roserade) especially with base 100 fire type moves in Weather Ball, which is now legal with Growth? I'm pretty sure it wasn't before. I could see Sun being a very strong arche-type or mix sun-sand teams. Kommo-o is obviously the best check to it right now, and that mon has been on the up as of lately but I feel like that won't hinder the success Venusaur will find in the tier.



Blastoise is actually really solid as Shell Smash user, though Cloyster is better in most cases. Situations where Toxapex are not on a team is where this Pokemon truly shines, I've seen SS Spout/Surf/Aura which does a absurd amount of damage if you force the switch with SS. It will probably drop to UU, but probably be banned to BL in the later future via suspect is my guess.



This mon is a lot better than I expected, but I guess that's to be expected when Gliscor, Tangrowth and Lando-T aren't in the tier. It breaks common Electric-immunities such as Seismitoad, Gastrodon etc. via Grass Knot which also does a lot to Hippo unless it's heavily SpDef invested. PFists/Play Rough/CC/Grass Knot or Volt Switch with Expert Belt/Life Orb seems to be it's best set, and I find it very hard to deal with defensively due to that insane coverage. Best bet of dealing with this? Trap it with Sash Dug or run Scarf Draga, because this thing is insane.



I personally haven't used it, but, SubRoost and Choice Specs seems SUPER good in this meta where common Water-types are 4x weak to Freeze-Dry. I think this will be one of the best mons in the tier, due to it beating almost every defensive core in the game. Also this thing just 6-0s stall with SubRoost, so if you see on the enemy when you're running stall, just forfeit lol.



Oh SPEAKING of overrated, I found this mon to be ass. Maybe because I haven't fought it in rain? But via all the Fairy types running Sp.Def to beat Hydreigon and Dragapult, Dragapult and Gengar just being so good, water-immunites, Toxapex etc. I find it to be very bad. Maybe stacked with Vish it will be good? But then again, Mantine Rain stacked with Vish also good so what's to say about how good this mon is? Imo use this as a Scarfer to deal with Kyurem-B if you want to use it.
 
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