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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3 (Usage in post #251)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Primarina has Psychic for Pex, the problem is they can break trought Ferro. Calm Mind is great against slower cores.
I'm trying out the Sun Team with Venu, Torkoal, Duggie, Gastrodon, Mandibuzz, and Scarfed Darm.
I'm only playing with friends, and they most of the times bring out Terrakion spamming Stone Edge, and it feels like without Gastro, the team would fall apart, having to abuse the weakness like such. Tips on how the current meta could handle this kind of check?
I'm only playing with friends, and they most of the times bring out Terrakion spamming Stone Edge, and it feels like without Gastro, the team would fall apart, having to abuse the weakness like such. Tips on how the current meta could handle this kind of check?
Primarina, specifically Substitute sets, do not struggle much with Ferrothorn + Toxapex cores. More and more Ferrothorn are starting to drop Power Whip in favor of Body Press, allowing Primarina to set up a Substitute against it rather freely, after which you can fish for a burn with Scald pretty comfortably. Similarly, Primarina can easily set up a Substitute against Toxapex as well.
This has been my favorite Primarina set so far. As mentioned before, it can setup a Substitute against bulky Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Toxapex rather freely, as well as some other Pokemon such as Mandibuzz and Kommo-o. On top of that, Primarina can bring a lot to teams in terms of defensive utility as one of the few decent Keldeo checks. However, there's one main gripe with Primarina and that's the fact that it can be a little hard to fit Wish support alongside it, leading to it being worn down rather quickly. And without Metronome, Primarina often won't overwhelm teams very reliably, so Leftovers isn't a particularly good choice to mitigate this issue either, though it's certainly viable to some extent.
Primarina @ Metronome / Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Substitute
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Substitute
This has been my favorite Primarina set so far. As mentioned before, it can setup a Substitute against bulky Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Toxapex rather freely, as well as some other Pokemon such as Mandibuzz and Kommo-o. On top of that, Primarina can bring a lot to teams in terms of defensive utility as one of the few decent Keldeo checks. However, there's one main gripe with Primarina and that's the fact that it can be a little hard to fit Wish support alongside it, leading to it being worn down rather quickly. And without Metronome, Primarina often won't overwhelm teams very reliably, so Leftovers isn't a particularly good choice to mitigate this issue either, though it's certainly viable to some extent.
I was running a Restalk PhysDef Calm Mind Primarina, which loses to pex, but set up on Seismitoad and Corviknight easily. Also wins against Dragons, Hatterene and even some Rotoms. Either way, the mon is great, and looks even more splashable than in last gen UU.
What does everyone think of sun right now? Is it a temporary trend or perhaps a long term metagame staple? I think the addition of Weather Ball to Venusaur's movepool gives it legitimate sweeping capability, as it can still give Venusaur a strong attack even in opposing weather. Darmanitan proves to be a fairly decent sun wallbreaker, and Cinderace is finding renewed viability with the number of good offensive partners there are to abuse sun.
With that being said I think Swift Swim Mantine is underrated, as it totally dominates every single sun abuser fairly easily when the rain goes up.
With that being said I think Swift Swim Mantine is underrated, as it totally dominates every single sun abuser fairly easily when the rain goes up.
This is my first post on the Showdown forums, but I've been a lurker for a bit now. I just wanted to share the idea of Centiskorch being a pretty good check to Venusaur, who (to my understanding) seems to be giving a few a fair bit of trouble. The set being:
Centiskorch (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fire Lash
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Lowkey one of my favorite sets this gen. But onto the specifics...
Venusaur can't do a whole lot to Centiskorch outside of Sludge Bombing it. Even 252 sp. atk Modest Venusaur does 25%-30% with it. A +2 Venusaur's Sludge Bomb does make a difference, but it still only 2HKOs. Giga Drain and Earth Power (if you're running it for some reason) do negligible damage while Flash Fire allows Centi to switch into a Sun boosted Weather Ball for free. Centi doesn't even fear the poison chance from Sludge Bomb, as it can Rest to heal itself anyways.
Meanwhile, uninvested Centi can straight up OHKO Venusaur in return with Fire Lash in the sun, and still do 75%-89% without. Heck, sun isn't even necessary if managed to bait out the Weather Ball for that Flash Fire boost.
Sp.Def Centi also walls both Scarf and Specs Pult (the latter only doing good damage with Draco once due to the Sp. Atk drop and the incoming Knock Off removing Specs, allowing Centi to Rest for free the next turn). An underrated mon, I think Home can bring out it's niche more often now that Melmetal and KyuB are banned.
Centiskorch (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fire Lash
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Lowkey one of my favorite sets this gen. But onto the specifics...
Venusaur can't do a whole lot to Centiskorch outside of Sludge Bombing it. Even 252 sp. atk Modest Venusaur does 25%-30% with it. A +2 Venusaur's Sludge Bomb does make a difference, but it still only 2HKOs. Giga Drain and Earth Power (if you're running it for some reason) do negligible damage while Flash Fire allows Centi to switch into a Sun boosted Weather Ball for free. Centi doesn't even fear the poison chance from Sludge Bomb, as it can Rest to heal itself anyways.
252+ SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch: 105-124 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Centiskorch: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meanwhile, uninvested Centi can straight up OHKO Venusaur in return with Fire Lash in the sun, and still do 75%-89% without. Heck, sun isn't even necessary if managed to bait out the Weather Ball for that Flash Fire boost.
0 Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur in Sun: 342-404 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Centiskorch Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur in Sun: 342-404 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sp.Def Centi also walls both Scarf and Specs Pult (the latter only doing good damage with Draco once due to the Sp. Atk drop and the incoming Knock Off removing Specs, allowing Centi to Rest for free the next turn). An underrated mon, I think Home can bring out it's niche more often now that Melmetal and KyuB are banned.
What do people think about Machamp since Home released?
Obnoxious Dynamic Punch spam. The only key thing that Jolly lets you outspeed is max speed non-scarf hydreigon which I actually think is one of the most important targets in the meta. There's a trade off in power obviously but if you mostly care about killing the stuff that's vulnerable to scarf dynamic punch (Hydreigon, Excadrill, Bisharp, Tyranitar whatever) Jolly will still do all that. Adamant knock off is never gonna kill Dragapult on the switch so I don't much see the point. I don't really plan on ever clicking Rock Slide or Poison Jab but theoretically you can hit fairies/Mandibuzz
The vest really changes Machamp. Strangely hard to kill. 3HKO from Specs dragapult, eats hits from specs Aegislash, 3hko by defensive Clef are notable ones. I expected this set to totally suck but it kinda works?
I don't think Machamp is going to be a top-tier pick or anything, and it really has a hard time justifying a slot over Conk (I considered posting a Flame Orb set but what is even the point? You'd never run it over Conk in my opinion) but I think it's reasonably viable. I've actually been running it alongside Conk and the fighting spam core feels pretty good now that ghosts get annihilated by Knock Off (a very fair and fun move)
Machamp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Rock Slide
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Rock Slide
Machamp @ Assault Vest
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Bullet Punch
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Bullet Punch
I don't think Machamp is going to be a top-tier pick or anything, and it really has a hard time justifying a slot over Conk (I considered posting a Flame Orb set but what is even the point? You'd never run it over Conk in my opinion) but I think it's reasonably viable. I've actually been running it alongside Conk and the fighting spam core feels pretty good now that ghosts get annihilated by Knock Off (a very fair and fun move)
Sword and Shield has been defined by the dominance of ghost types. There are a number of reasons for this dominance: Lack of pursuit, a grab bag of excellent ghost types, but most importantly, lack of reliable resists. Enter Incineroar. Incineroar's strong natural bulk (seriously, this thing is so bulky), good defensive typing, and deep move pool make this Pokemon an excellent check to the variety of ghost types in the tier.
Strengths:
This set is an adaptation of a set popular in VGC2019 Ultra Series (236 HP/236 SpD). The speed is for speed-creeping Clefables speed-creeping Corviknight. This set does very, very well against specially attacking Dragapult, even being able to switch in on a specs Draco Meteor and threaten it out with Knock Off. Incineroar's dual fire/dark typing means that it is not vulnerable to Dragapult's U-turn. I also use this set to check Gengar. Non-setup Gengar is completely dominated by this set, and this set isn't even 2HKO'd by +2 sludge wave from setup variants +2 252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 236 HP / 200+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 168-198 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (in fact, it doesn't even die to focus blast +2 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 236 HP / 200+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 282-334 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.)
Weaknesses:
Without Heavy-Duty Boots, Incineroar is vulnerable to racking up lots of passive damage from switching in on Stealth Rocks, necessitating reliable hazard removal support. This set also lacks reliable recovery, meaning it is liable to be worn down by continually switching into attacks, especially when taking stealth rock damage. Lack of pursuit means that ghost types may simply switch out to avoid being threatened by Incineroar, but very few things enjoy switching into STAB knock off, if not for the damage then for losing their item, something especially crucial in a metagame void of megas and Z-moves.
This set has significant potential in the current metagame, and I hope that Incineroar sees some usage in this generation.
Incineroar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 236 HP / 200 SpD / 72 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Knock Off
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 236 HP / 200 SpD / 72 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Knock Off
This set is an adaptation of a set popular in VGC2019 Ultra Series (236 HP/236 SpD). The speed is for speed-creeping Clefables speed-creeping Corviknight. This set does very, very well against specially attacking Dragapult, even being able to switch in on a specs Draco Meteor and threaten it out with Knock Off. Incineroar's dual fire/dark typing means that it is not vulnerable to Dragapult's U-turn. I also use this set to check Gengar. Non-setup Gengar is completely dominated by this set, and this set isn't even 2HKO'd by +2 sludge wave from setup variants +2 252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 236 HP / 200+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 168-198 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (in fact, it doesn't even die to focus blast +2 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 236 HP / 200+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 282-334 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.)
Weaknesses:
Without Heavy-Duty Boots, Incineroar is vulnerable to racking up lots of passive damage from switching in on Stealth Rocks, necessitating reliable hazard removal support. This set also lacks reliable recovery, meaning it is liable to be worn down by continually switching into attacks, especially when taking stealth rock damage. Lack of pursuit means that ghost types may simply switch out to avoid being threatened by Incineroar, but very few things enjoy switching into STAB knock off, if not for the damage then for losing their item, something especially crucial in a metagame void of megas and Z-moves.
This set has significant potential in the current metagame, and I hope that Incineroar sees some usage in this generation.
I am thinking that Arcanine is an overlooked Fire mon for Sun Teams. Having a lot of versatility
Arcanine @ Leftovers/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Calm
EV's 252 HP , 206 Sp Def, 48 Spd
Heat Wave/ Fire Blast
Substitute
Will-o-Wisp/Toxic
Morning Sun
Morning Sun may not have many uses but?it will heal 2/3 total HP in the sun. That?combined with leftovers and Arcanine's decent bulk can make it very hard to break down when the sun is shining
WoW or Toxic can be chosen if you either want to cripple physical attackers or bulky water mons like Seismitoad/Gastrodon that check it.
Of course full offensive sets can work too
Arcanine @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
Nature: Jolly
EV: 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
Flare Blitz
Extreme Speed
Psychic Fangs
Play Rough
Wild Charge/Earthquake
Psychic Fangs is to hit Toxapex without the self-damage of Wild Charge, Play Rough will OHKO defensive Hydreigon, Komono-o and Dragapult.
Justified is a very useful ability now with Knock-off Spam going on. If you predict it you can still get Arcanine with an Attack Boost without being choice-locked
Arcanine @ Leftovers/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Calm
EV's 252 HP , 206 Sp Def, 48 Spd
Heat Wave/ Fire Blast
Substitute
Will-o-Wisp/Toxic
Morning Sun
Morning Sun may not have many uses but?it will heal 2/3 total HP in the sun. That?combined with leftovers and Arcanine's decent bulk can make it very hard to break down when the sun is shining
WoW or Toxic can be chosen if you either want to cripple physical attackers or bulky water mons like Seismitoad/Gastrodon that check it.
Of course full offensive sets can work too
Arcanine @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
Nature: Jolly
EV: 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
Flare Blitz
Extreme Speed
Psychic Fangs
Play Rough
Wild Charge/Earthquake
Psychic Fangs is to hit Toxapex without the self-damage of Wild Charge, Play Rough will OHKO defensive Hydreigon, Komono-o and Dragapult.
Justified is a very useful ability now with Knock-off Spam going on. If you predict it you can still get Arcanine with an Attack Boost without being choice-locked
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From my experience playing over the weekend, the biggest new threats are Venusaur, Zeraora, and Aegislash with Toxic.
Venusaur is incredibly scary for most teams. Growth 3 Attacks murders most of the tier and outruns everything. Revenge killing under sun is basically restricted to Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile. I think the best way of handling it is running opposing weather. Tyranitar deals with it well and Ferrothorn counters it if rain is up. Bulletproof Kommo-o is a decent check too. All of these will struggle against the rare Earth Power variants though.
Zeraora is a fantastic anti-offense mon, outrunning the entire unboosted tier and 2HKOing nearly everything. The main sets right now are Plasma Fists, Close Combat, Grass Knot, Knock Off/Play Rough, and Bulk Up, Plasma Fists, Close Combat, Knock Off/Play Rough. Expert Belt and Life Orb both suffice for damage output. I can’t think of anything off the top of my head that reliably avoids a 2HKO from Zeraora.
Aegislash is the least obviously terrifying mom of the three but no less menacing. Toxic has led to a resurgence in Sub Toxic sets, but due to its inability to deal with Toxapex and general passive nature it hasn’t put in a lot of work from what I’ve seen. Specs, however, is crazy. Shadow Ball, Flash Cannon, Steel Beam, and Close Combat was the pre-Home set, but Steel Beam can be dropped in favor of Toxic now. It is a very safe option to go for against any Dark-type as well as Gastrodon and Kommo-o. More importantly, it makes Aegislash much more threatening over the course of longer games, as rather than eating a Steal Beam and managing to recover, it becomes harder and harder for the opponent to answer to one’s own mons. Standard Toxic stuff, basically. The most significant part of not relying on Steel Beam is the preservation of HP. Not cutting your lifespan in half to KO an opponent is pretty nice, and gives Aegislash more opportunity to come in against stuff like Terrakion, which can’t beat Aegislash unless it has Earthquake.
I’ll probably write something about Conkeldurr in the near future since that thing is crazy too.
Venusaur is incredibly scary for most teams. Growth 3 Attacks murders most of the tier and outruns everything. Revenge killing under sun is basically restricted to Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile. I think the best way of handling it is running opposing weather. Tyranitar deals with it well and Ferrothorn counters it if rain is up. Bulletproof Kommo-o is a decent check too. All of these will struggle against the rare Earth Power variants though.
Zeraora is a fantastic anti-offense mon, outrunning the entire unboosted tier and 2HKOing nearly everything. The main sets right now are Plasma Fists, Close Combat, Grass Knot, Knock Off/Play Rough, and Bulk Up, Plasma Fists, Close Combat, Knock Off/Play Rough. Expert Belt and Life Orb both suffice for damage output. I can’t think of anything off the top of my head that reliably avoids a 2HKO from Zeraora.
Aegislash is the least obviously terrifying mom of the three but no less menacing. Toxic has led to a resurgence in Sub Toxic sets, but due to its inability to deal with Toxapex and general passive nature it hasn’t put in a lot of work from what I’ve seen. Specs, however, is crazy. Shadow Ball, Flash Cannon, Steel Beam, and Close Combat was the pre-Home set, but Steel Beam can be dropped in favor of Toxic now. It is a very safe option to go for against any Dark-type as well as Gastrodon and Kommo-o. More importantly, it makes Aegislash much more threatening over the course of longer games, as rather than eating a Steal Beam and managing to recover, it becomes harder and harder for the opponent to answer to one’s own mons. Standard Toxic stuff, basically. The most significant part of not relying on Steel Beam is the preservation of HP. Not cutting your lifespan in half to KO an opponent is pretty nice, and gives Aegislash more opportunity to come in against stuff like Terrakion, which can’t beat Aegislash unless it has Earthquake.
I’ll probably write something about Conkeldurr in the near future since that thing is crazy too.
With Kyurem-B banned I was wondering about the viability of this set:
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Roost/Protect
- Icicle Spear
(I'm not sure about the EV/nature spread, there is probably a better one for the current meta.)
The idea is to take advantage of pokemon who would otherwise stop this set cold, like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, thanks to Pressure turning them into setup baits.
Kyurem also happens to be weak to several types that typically run 8 PP moves, such as Rock (Stone Edge), Dragon (Draco Meteor), Steel (Steel Beam and Gyro Ball) and Fighting (Close Combat, Superpower and Focus Blast) and are commonly seen on Choice users, such as Terrakion and Dragapult, all of which end up wasting PP thanks to a combination of Pressure, Substitute and either Roost or Protect.
Ice is a fine type for a mono-attacking set and Kyurem has both the stats and the movepool to exploit this. It also helps that Icicle Spear has very high PP, giving it the edge on PP stall wars.
I would consider pairing this set with Aegislash, which resists all of Kyurem's weaknesses and can deal with its counters, most notably Sylveon who can force Kyurem out with Hyper Voice.
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Roost/Protect
- Icicle Spear
(I'm not sure about the EV/nature spread, there is probably a better one for the current meta.)
The idea is to take advantage of pokemon who would otherwise stop this set cold, like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, thanks to Pressure turning them into setup baits.
Kyurem also happens to be weak to several types that typically run 8 PP moves, such as Rock (Stone Edge), Dragon (Draco Meteor), Steel (Steel Beam and Gyro Ball) and Fighting (Close Combat, Superpower and Focus Blast) and are commonly seen on Choice users, such as Terrakion and Dragapult, all of which end up wasting PP thanks to a combination of Pressure, Substitute and either Roost or Protect.
Ice is a fine type for a mono-attacking set and Kyurem has both the stats and the movepool to exploit this. It also helps that Icicle Spear has very high PP, giving it the edge on PP stall wars.
I would consider pairing this set with Aegislash, which resists all of Kyurem's weaknesses and can deal with its counters, most notably Sylveon who can force Kyurem out with Hyper Voice.
i ran into someone running special ebelt the other day and have been messing around with this set...
Kyurem @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
this probably isn’t the most optimized set but you have options. Flash cannon, dragon pulse (instead of Draco), and Freeze Dry are all probably justifiable imo. I’ve been theory monning a little bit but I imagine that the choice specs version will run modest instead of timid and will want flash cannon if Sylveon is it’s target (spread from smogon’s article).
vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Sylveon: 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kyurem @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
this probably isn’t the most optimized set but you have options. Flash cannon, dragon pulse (instead of Draco), and Freeze Dry are all probably justifiable imo. I’ve been theory monning a little bit but I imagine that the choice specs version will run modest instead of timid and will want flash cannon if Sylveon is it’s target (spread from smogon’s article).
vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Sylveon: 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I've been a really big fan of the Sub Roost Kyurem set from last gen.
Kyurem @ Metronome / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost
With Kyurem getting access to Freeze-Dry, I think set has potential to take the meta by storm. Not only does Freeze-Dry have twice as much PP as Ice Beam, making it much more effective in concert with Metronome, but having the ability to nail Water-types such as Primarina or Keldeo - which would otherwise be fairly safe switchins - for good damage is a huge blessing. Loosing 20 base power does kind of blow, but there hasn't really been any matchups where I've sorely missed it. Kind of echoing Jordy's post on Primarina, I find that you'd really like to run both items on Kyurem, but neither of which fully patch up Kyurem's weaknesses on their own. Without Heavy Duty-Boots, Kyurem is very susceptible from chip to hazards, while lacking Metronome means that Kyurem has a much harder time dealing with some SpDef pokes like Clefable (after some chip of course).
In particular, I find that SpDef Corviknight is actually one of the best checks to this set. Bar being frozen, Corviknight is able to come in on Freeze-Dry quite easily, even being able to take two of them with ~50% HP remaining and threatening Kyurem with Iron Head or Body Press. Even a Brave Bird can break a sub. SpDef Clef being everywhere is also quite annoying, but with team support Kyurem can circumvent this. Kyurem's fairly crowded speed tier can also lend it to being revenge-killed sometimes as well, especially with Terrak/Keld/Zeraora/Drag around.
All that said, this is still a very fun mon and one of my absolute favorites to use in the meta right now regardless of its flaws.
Kyurem @ Metronome / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost
With Kyurem getting access to Freeze-Dry, I think set has potential to take the meta by storm. Not only does Freeze-Dry have twice as much PP as Ice Beam, making it much more effective in concert with Metronome, but having the ability to nail Water-types such as Primarina or Keldeo - which would otherwise be fairly safe switchins - for good damage is a huge blessing. Loosing 20 base power does kind of blow, but there hasn't really been any matchups where I've sorely missed it. Kind of echoing Jordy's post on Primarina, I find that you'd really like to run both items on Kyurem, but neither of which fully patch up Kyurem's weaknesses on their own. Without Heavy Duty-Boots, Kyurem is very susceptible from chip to hazards, while lacking Metronome means that Kyurem has a much harder time dealing with some SpDef pokes like Clefable (after some chip of course).
In particular, I find that SpDef Corviknight is actually one of the best checks to this set. Bar being frozen, Corviknight is able to come in on Freeze-Dry quite easily, even being able to take two of them with ~50% HP remaining and threatening Kyurem with Iron Head or Body Press. Even a Brave Bird can break a sub. SpDef Clef being everywhere is also quite annoying, but with team support Kyurem can circumvent this. Kyurem's fairly crowded speed tier can also lend it to being revenge-killed sometimes as well, especially with Terrak/Keld/Zeraora/Drag around.
All that said, this is still a very fun mon and one of my absolute favorites to use in the meta right now regardless of its flaws.
imo kyurem absolutely needs freeze dry otherwise gastrodon just kinda... sits on you, esp w/ amnesia gastro popping up now
Now that kyurem Black and Melmetal are gone, which I don't agree with, Kyurem would be harder to beat. And all of them I named were OHKO on Kyurem. Sure all of them can switch in but Pokemon is a game that to win some times you need to give something up to win.
Please redirect to my "checks are not counters" statement
In any case, wow, this meta. I think now that Melmetal and Kyurem-Black are gone that things have definitely rounded out a bit more, and I'm curious to see how that retest on Melmetal goes once the meta starts to favor new sets and ideas.
So, with that aside, let me give a new round of updated thoughts.
Oh lawd he comin. I'm happy to say that, in my experience, my first impressions on this guy have been pretty on the nail. At the moment, I've found great success in shredding balance (especially with the new prevalence of Primarina) and rising stall cores consisting of Zeraora checks. I absolutely adore how well Metronome Kyurem shreds through common cores, and now that it doesn't have things like Kyurem/Melmetal to threaten it, it's a lot capable of switching in and clicking buttons. This thing is a rising threat for sure.
Oh lord how have I underestimated my baby. Primarina's dual STAB combo is much more of a threat to the tier than I originally thought, and it heavily appreciates Melmetal and Kyurem being gone so it can more safely pry apart unprepared teams. I've found great success running a choiced variant on Rain cores to threaten dragons/vish counters, and it pairs surprisingly well with Dracovish. What's even better is, thanks to Calm Mind, it's even able to run a cleaner set, and this works wonders on webs and against balance. Ferrothorn could arguably be a check, but as mentioned, it's not running Power Whip as much anymore, letting it set up a substitute in its face and prepare to clean house. If you play against it wrong, you're going to get punished hard, and that's pretty huge.
I'm finally seeing some Zeraora, and people's premonitions have not failed to live up to the expectations. This thing breaks so many things, and its coverage is fucking insane. The fact it can run Knock Off, Play Rough, Close Combat, Grass Knot, or Bulk Up on top of a brutal electric STAB option (which is super good right now) makes it an absolute menace and something that, similar to Primarina, you need to play against intently and carefully if you don't want to get pried open.
epic
also epic, but only because dugtrio is epic. If dugtrio goes away, this thing will be a strong threat but it won't be overly strong like it is now. It's less Venusaur's fault and more how Dugtrio is so easily able to screw over the things that would wall it otherwise.
Mantine greatly appreciates the quickbans on Melmetal and Kyurem due to their 100% run electric coverage moves, but the rise of Zeraora is not something it likes whatsoever. Still, don't sleep on it, but I think it will have a much more linear utilitarian use since it needs Toxic (and probably a bit of speed investment) to threaten Primarina, which like I said, is on the rise.
Decidueye just makes me sad. It's cool that it has an offensive niche in being able to scare bulky waters and punish consequential Pult/defensive switchins with Spirit Shackle into SD to pseudo trap, as well as having a surprisingly potent defensive typing. However, it's way, way too slow to really do much of anything. The only real mileage I think you can get out of Decidueye is an SD set or a Scarf variant, but both will probably require a lot of team support. It's sad, because if it were faster I feel like this thing would have a more realized niche. Probably not really OU material.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1065388468 Here's a replay of said "niche" in action, though.
Honestly, kind of underrated. It's a surprisingly bulky mon with wish support and its solid defensive typing, and the fact it has access to SR and Volt Switch allows for it to role compress both hazards and pivoting. What's also cool is offensive variants are just as viable since it has a very nice STAB combo in Fighting/Steel, and Volt Switch is still a good means of repositioning with a Banded or Scarf set. I don't feel it's as strong as Terrakion since it lacks a lot less firepower in its offenses, but it for sure has a place in the tier due to its surprising flexibility.
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SpDef Centiskorch also handles Kyurem quite nicely, since Earth Power doesn't do much (with 252 SpA and the 5-consecutive-use boost, Earth Power does 38-45% to 252/236+ Centiskorch) and RestTalk pulling Fire Lash doesn't use Fire Lash PP, while Fire Lash also breaks 56 HP Kyurem's sub despite 0 Attack investment.
Metronome Kyurem's not that good, honestly. It's walled by specially defensive fairies, especially as those are starting to run Calm Mind more often, and can even struggle with Corviknight, which are, as you know, some of the best Pokemon in the tier.
I've had a lot more success with Choice Specs Kyurem, and definitely think it's the better set overall right now. It can immediately pressure teams much better and doesn't waste turns setting up Substitutes on Pokemon like Toxapex, which actually gives players a lot more room to play around Kyurem this generation. The only issue is being worn down by Stealth Rock, but with the solid entry hazard removal we have now, it's not a particularly big deal.
I've had a lot more success with Choice Specs Kyurem, and definitely think it's the better set overall right now. It can immediately pressure teams much better and doesn't waste turns setting up Substitutes on Pokemon like Toxapex, which actually gives players a lot more room to play around Kyurem this generation. The only issue is being worn down by Stealth Rock, but with the solid entry hazard removal we have now, it's not a particularly big deal.
From my experience, I've found that Metronome works best against defensive archetypes in a core with mons that break these fairies such as Excadrill/Bisharp (formerly Melmetal), though I do definitely agree that defensive fairies give it a ton of trouble. However, I personally think Kyurem has a lot of potential sets at the moment, which is a testament to its rise as a whole. Choice Specs is really strong, as the item gives Kyurem the immediate power to break things that otherwise would check it as you've said, especially with how Freeze-Dry by itself is only really resisted by Rotom-Heat, Cinderace (kind of), and Bisharp (kind of). I've also mentioned Scarf before, which also has some merit, as it can then check Specs Pult, Offensive Kommo variants (Clangorous/Salac/DD), NP Hydreigon, and Scarf Rotom variants (minus Heat).
Though, I do agree that specs overall is probably much better to have. Immediate power works much more to its benefit (despite the hazard weakness), and it doesn't really need the extra speed allotted by a Choice Scarf unless something in specific is heavily threatening your team.
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Substitute Metronome Dracovish is fantastic (credits to WarioMasters for pioneering it)
Dracovish @ Metronome
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Crunch
- Fishious Rend
- Earthquake
This thing eats the traditional switchins alive and really allows Dracovish to be less team reliant to break. Here's a 1600 replay with it, after I scout for Baneful Bunker I clean up with Fishious Rend - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1065414314
EDIT - Two more replays straight from the salt mines of our lovely community :)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1066123743 (1700)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1065580312
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1065575068-u7nyjg1zrjs8fqiqzr15wa8ws8ei7pmpw
Obviously you're scared of Dragapult but this is common to all substitute mons.
Dracovish @ Metronome
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Crunch
- Fishious Rend
- Earthquake
This thing eats the traditional switchins alive and really allows Dracovish to be less team reliant to break. Here's a 1600 replay with it, after I scout for Baneful Bunker I clean up with Fishious Rend - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1065414314
EDIT - Two more replays straight from the salt mines of our lovely community :)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1066123743 (1700)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1065580312
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1065575068-u7nyjg1zrjs8fqiqzr15wa8ws8ei7pmpw
Obviously you're scared of Dragapult but this is common to all substitute mons.
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Sorry misspoke. None can switch in.
Sayuze
Banned deucer.
I'm really not sure where to bring up this, but I want to urge for more potential debate and discussion for suspect testing in SS OU.
As of the introduction of Pokemon Home, SS OU has been a pretty big mess, and if you have played a lot on the ladder, or even played a good amount of games with your buddies, you can probably agree with me on that. Every team is more or less left with big holes to common threats in the meta, one way or another, to the abundance of powerhouses like LO Zeraora, Conkeldurr, NP Hydreigon, along with cheesy shit like Cloyster existing, and the list only continues. By trial and error, I believe you have no hope to try and check ALL these reliably (by defensive means), so you're forced to bring likes of such mons yourself. This turns out to create a meta of the one similar to the Dynamax one, in my opinion.
Obviously, I'm not proposing to ban/suspect test all of them, nor am I proposing to ban a single one of them specifically. Looking at this problem from a bigger point of view, I believe it's because of how teambuilding is this restrictive right now, so my go-to option would be to take a look at Dugtrio, but Arena Trap in specific. I think Arena Trap / Dugtrio are very unhealthy but also broken and shouldn't belong here. I already made a post on that, so I won't include it here, but here's the link. Anyway, I'm still a bit clueless to how the meta can be fixed, by doing what, but it would be unfortunate if the council takes slow or no action at all, similarly to in SM (I don't mean this in negative spirit).
While it is valid argument to say that we should wait more to the meta to develop, and that we don't have a standard basis of teams to look to (since Pokemon Home has only been allowed in SPL since the beginning of this week as well as not in OST), I feel like, personally, I haven't been this frustrated with CG OU for a long time. Hopefully, more people can bring up what they feel like they think should happen testing-wise, and we'll start to see more changes.
Edit: Just so I made it clear, while I do think Dugtrio is broken imo, I don't think that it's the sole reason that SS OU is the way it is, I'm just proposing ideas of stuff that can be tested
As of the introduction of Pokemon Home, SS OU has been a pretty big mess, and if you have played a lot on the ladder, or even played a good amount of games with your buddies, you can probably agree with me on that. Every team is more or less left with big holes to common threats in the meta, one way or another, to the abundance of powerhouses like LO Zeraora, Conkeldurr, NP Hydreigon, along with cheesy shit like Cloyster existing, and the list only continues. By trial and error, I believe you have no hope to try and check ALL these reliably (by defensive means), so you're forced to bring likes of such mons yourself. This turns out to create a meta of the one similar to the Dynamax one, in my opinion.
Obviously, I'm not proposing to ban/suspect test all of them, nor am I proposing to ban a single one of them specifically. Looking at this problem from a bigger point of view, I believe it's because of how teambuilding is this restrictive right now, so my go-to option would be to take a look at Dugtrio, but Arena Trap in specific. I think Arena Trap / Dugtrio are very unhealthy but also broken and shouldn't belong here. I already made a post on that, so I won't include it here, but here's the link. Anyway, I'm still a bit clueless to how the meta can be fixed, by doing what, but it would be unfortunate if the council takes slow or no action at all, similarly to in SM (I don't mean this in negative spirit).
While it is valid argument to say that we should wait more to the meta to develop, and that we don't have a standard basis of teams to look to (since Pokemon Home has only been allowed in SPL since the beginning of this week as well as not in OST), I feel like, personally, I haven't been this frustrated with CG OU for a long time. Hopefully, more people can bring up what they feel like they think should happen testing-wise, and we'll start to see more changes.
Edit: Just so I made it clear, while I do think Dugtrio is broken imo, I don't think that it's the sole reason that SS OU is the way it is, I'm just proposing ideas of stuff that can be tested
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment of this post. It seems like problems are building up and, granted home did come out right in the middle of discussing arena trap/dugtrio, which came up in the middle of a smaller discussion around kings rock/cloyster, I feel like we need to get things moving a little bit. IMO we should just quick-ban King's Rock/Razor Fang (idt razor fang is even in the game, but you can use it on showdown) and focus on dealing with Dugtrio/Arena Trap. Although the only major abusers of KR are Weavile and Skill Link mons (Cloyster), the item itself is fundamentally uncompetitive and I don't think we would miss much by just quick-banning it. I think doing a Dugtrio-free suspect of Arena Trap makes the most sense, but I am open to any approach that more dedicated smogonites might suggest, and I realize that now that we have so many new mons that it's possible Dugtrio is no longer a problem (but I do doubt it).
I've supported a ban on purely RNG-based items (King's Rock/Razor Fang, Brightpowder, Quick Claw, etc.) since Gen 4. They might not be broken in most cases but they perfectly fit the definition of uncompetitive. They take an element of the game out of the hands of the players and place it at the mercy of RNG instead, and offer no real competitive utility in return. It just so happens that in the case of Skill Link / Beat Up users, it's both uncompetitive and somewhat broken, but I think there's a solid enough argument that these items (or at the very least King's Rock/Razor Fang which is the biggest offender at the moment) should be banned anyways on their own merit and that we wouldn't really lose anything of any competitive value in the process.
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