Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Pre-DLC]

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Dragapult A+ -------> A

Dragapult doesn't seem to be at the same level nor offer the same consistency as some other A+ mons. Clefable is at every turn with insanely high usage and Zeraora gives a breath of new air to OU being a faster more versatile threat to teams. Being highly reliant on stabs with unreliable boosting moves doesn't do it any favors either. Neutral 100 base specs isn't very strong and breaking through something like a pex/clef core is tedious meanwhile hex remains relatively weak and highly dependent on status infliction for a decent output. Keep in mind a lot more mons have regained access to knock off, leaving it unable to pivot into things as easily like conkeldurr pex and seismitoed. Aside from being a nice offensive pivot into something like Keldeo, home brought galars pseudo nothing noteworthy.
 
Dragapult A+ -------> A

Dragapult doesn't seem to be at the same level nor offer the same consistency as some other A+ mons. Clefable is at every turn with insanely high usage and Zeraora gives a breath of new air to OU being a faster more versatile threat to teams. Being highly reliant on stabs with unreliable boosting moves doesn't do it any favors either. Neutral 100 base specs isn't very strong and breaking through something like a pex/clef core is tedious meanwhile hex remains relatively weak and highly dependent on status infliction for a decent output. Keep in mind a lot more mons have regained access to knock off, leaving it unable to pivot into things as easily like conkeldurr pex and seismitoed. Aside from being a nice offensive pivot into something like Keldeo, home brought galars pseudo nothing noteworthy.
I don't agree with the idea of dropping it, but it's so damn versatile and you don't know which set you're facing until something dies. It's still worthy of A+ IMO, but it does suck that Zeraora seems made to counter it because it's literally one point faster and has the coverage moves to revenge kill it in one hit.
 
look I dont really care about most mon on the slate so not going to go over all of them, but 2 things stood out to me that just seemed offensive. why the hell is the thunder cat (Zeraora) in A +/A ?
1583589506553.png

This shit is consistently the worst mons on your teams and is entirely overrated. In fact it's just its speed tier and coverage. I think people are going a little crazy over it. it lacks power and is honestly really frail, like REALLY frail. I dont understand the hype around it whatever but ive been around long enough to see the massive amounts of bandwagoning and groupthink that propagates on this here smogon dot com to spot it immediately.

What does this thing have - plasma fist, close combat, blaze kick (I run this in sun), play rough, knock off (which is really bad on it ) and like what? the lightning absorb and grass knot.
like I get it, the cat is a legendary with good coverage, but the things it hits were gonna die to any good electric mon other than like ttar, and ttar can live and ko back lmao. not to mention this is hard walled by gastro and cant take any type of hit. in fact if anything it hits lives they will most likely ko back (unless they are passive). massive amounts of overration by this community. id say I’m surprised, but my standards for you are abysmally low, this shit deserves to be in B/B- max and I am serious.
look at the replays of your games with this mon, I am serious when I say that it is one of the worst mons on your teams; and it's obvious
 
hello,

to Zeraoras ranking I think its ranking is justified because of a lot of reasons:
first and foremost its good speed tier leaves it faster by 1 point than dragapult which was pre home the fastest mon in the metagame naturally so zeraora outspeeding dragapult by 1 point leaves dragapult vulnerable to its coverage options in knock off / play rough.
Zeraora is natrually the fastest mon in the current metagame and its hits most of its checks via coverage options, which are amazing by itself, with knock off (dragapult), grass knot (seismitoad, gastrodon, hippowdon), play rough / close combat (hydreigon, dragapult, bisharp), and many more coverage options like the rarer used blaze kick which can hit ferrothorn as example for 4x super effective damage.
the typing of zeraora is also a blessing, which leaves it only vulnerable to one major issue, which is the ground typing attacks like erath power and earthquake.
the power of 112 attack combined with different ind of items is also a blessing, as it can function as a good breaker and can easily overwhelm its checks due to the help with life orb, expert belt or when needed bulk up. Zeraora is known to function as a good breaker currently which can easily explot mons like corviknight, mandibuzz, and ferrothorn for itself to set up a bulk up.
Zeraora right now is one of the most dangerous mons and with the help via slow u-turn / volt switches it is able to get in easily and dent holes in the opposing team or forces switches and is also able to force its checks to recover up.
Zeraora is really good with all these weapons in its arsenal, blessing typing, speed tier and ofc many coverage options which it can pick from. sure some people might think it is a rather one-sided pkmn but it doesn't need much to be a threat in the current metagame at all thus leaving zeraora at a high ranking and it should def not drop right now.
 
hello,

to Zeraoras ranking I think its ranking is justified because of a lot of reasons:
first and foremost its good speed tier leaves it faster by 1 point than dragapult which was pre home the fastest mon in the metagame naturally so zeraora outspeeding dragapult by 1 point leaves dragapult vulnerable to its coverage options in knock off / play rough.
Zeraora is natrually the fastest mon in the current metagame and its hits most of its checks via coverage options, which are amazing by itself, with knock off (dragapult), grass knot (seismitoad, gastrodon, hippowdon), play rough / close combat (hydreigon, dragapult, bisharp), and many more coverage options like the rarer used blaze kick which can hit ferrothorn as example for 4x super effective damage.
the typing of zeraora is also a blessing, which leaves it only vulnerable to one major issue, which is the ground typing attacks like erath power and earthquake.
the power of 112 attack combined with different ind of items is also a blessing, as it can function as a good breaker and can easily overwhelm its checks due to the help with life orb, expert belt or when needed bulk up. Zeraora is known to function as a good breaker currently which can easily explot mons like corviknight, mandibuzz, and ferrothorn for itself to set up a bulk up.
Zeraora right now is one of the most dangerous mons and with the help via slow u-turn / volt switches it is able to get in easily and dent holes in the opposing team or forces switches and is also able to force its checks to recover up.
Zeraora is really good with all these weapons in its arsenal, blessing typing, speed tier and ofc many coverage options which it can pick from. sure some people might think it is a rather one-sided pkmn but it doesn't need much to be a threat in the current metagame at all thus leaving zeraora at a high ranking and it should def not drop right now.

I am so glad you went into detail about these here mons so I can just expose yall for the shallow theorymoner you are

"dragapult vulnerable to its coverage options in knock-off / play rough."
not only can this mon not come in on a dragapult, the one mon in it's speed tier, whatsoever, adamant play rough (unless you are running life orb) does not kill dragapult. and knock off is just for that. in fact u shouldnt try and take on a zeraora with a dragapult anyway. In addition, most of the mons in the tier are bulky and slow, ur speed and mediocre attacks mean absolutely dick to them, since they dont care about speed anyway.

NEXT

"grass knot (seismitoad, gastrodon, hippowdon)"
unless ur running max spa with ebelt or life orb (or specs I guess) grass knot is not killing seimitoad (at least the spdef ones). in fact, lets go over this list realistically...
you are running a physical set, since every single attack you listed is physical but this so you NEVER are koing a seimistoad, you are doing like 35% to gastro, and are u not killing hippodon (unless it is just fully max def with 0 spdef and u hit it on the switch). yet all of these mons will definitely kill you. Gastro is more common than hippo, and most likely ur hippo is going to be at full and u will not kill it.

NEXT

"play rough / close combat (hydreigon, dragapult, bisharp, [I’m adding in tyranitar here])" - this is assuming ur life orb, otherwise you actually dont certify a kill on these other than sharp which is not a threat

NEXT

"Zeraora is known to function as a good breaker currently which can easily explot mons like corviknight, mandibuzz, and ferrothorn for itself to set up a bulk up."

ya... gonna stop you there because i actually run mandibuzz, zeraora will kill itself (and mandibuzz) trying to take out of mandibuzz, and corvinight is a flying type so why are saying that an electric mon cna do what an electric mon already does......

anyway cc doesnt oko ferrothro and power whip actually will kill u if they attack

P.s. bulk up zeraora is bad, and a waste of a slot.

so lets go over it all here,
the set that you believe should be run is likely

252 attack, 4 spa, 252 speed, (+ speed nature) holding a life orb
- plasma fists
- close combat
- knock off
- grass knot

is that correct? if so again, this isnt that special other than it being fast, isnt that strong, and is massively overrated. shit really is not that multi dimnesional even though yall try your damned hardest to make it so. pick something else to bandwagon



edit:
Sure Zeraora doesn't hit THAT hard, but it seems almost custom made for this metagame. It gets the jump on Dragapult by one point and has quite good coverage to compliment it and beat common threats. It can run a damage boosting item freely because its speed tier makes a choice scarf hilariously redundant. The only other things faster than pult can't even hit it neutrally lol

It's possible that you just hate Zeraora's design and the fact that its mythical status seems really dumb. I do too. But that has nothing to do with viability, so if that's your reasoning, please keep it out of this thread.
Wtf lmao no and goodbye
 
Sure Zeraora doesn't hit THAT hard, but it seems almost custom made for this metagame. It gets the jump on Dragapult by one point and has quite good coverage to compliment it and beat common threats. It can run a damage boosting item freely because its speed tier makes a choice scarf hilariously redundant. The only other things faster than pult can't even hit it neutrally lol

It's possible that you just hate Zeraora's design and the fact that its mythical status seems really dumb. I do too. But that has nothing to do with viability, so if that's your reasoning, please keep it out of this thread.

edit: also near literally every zeraora runs life orb so shut up about it not being able to kill stuff without lorb because that's literally its item of choice, and it's meant to revenge kill pult not switch in
 
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look I dont really care about most mon on the slate so not going to go over all of them, but 2 things stood out to me that just seemed offensive. why the hell is the thunder cat (Zeraora) in A +/A ?
View attachment 226505
This shit is consistently the worst mons on your teams and is entirely overrated. In fact it's just its speed tier and coverage. I think people are going a little crazy over it. it lacks power and is honestly really frail, like REALLY frail. I dont understand the hype around it whatever but ive been around long enough to see the massive amounts of bandwagoning and groupthink that propagates on this here smogon dot com to spot it immediately.

What does this thing have - plasma fist, close combat, blaze kick (I run this in sun), play rough, knock off (which is really bad on it ) and like what? the lightning absorb and grass knot.
like I get it, the cat is a legendary with good coverage, but the things it hits were gonna die to any good electric mon other than like ttar, and ttar can live and ko back lmao. not to mention this is hard walled by gastro and cant take any type of hit. in fact if anything it hits lives they will most likely ko back (unless they are passive). massive amounts of overration by this community. id say I’m surprised, but my standards for you are abysmally low, this shit deserves to be in B/B- max and I am serious.
look at the replays of your games with this mon, I am serious when I say that it is one of the worst mons on your teams; and it's obvious
man this post is all over the place
your points are
- its bad and everyone is bandwagoning
- it has coverage
- its not killing things (this is the only real point)
- its frail
- everyone is bandwagoning and theyre bad
- its bad
- its bad

literally your only shred of evidence is that its walled by gastro, and you use ad hominem attacks multiple times for no reason. chill its pokemon.

i'll address your real points too i guess
i dont see how zeraora struggles to kill. between cc play rough grass knot and blaze kick, you essentially get to choose which pokemon wall you so in theory you'll always get a kill. killing isn't rly the issue its the problem of not having all the right coverage along with being hard to get in.

like i dont even disagree with you i do think zeraora is bad but this post just has no evidence or real points
 
I can agree with Zera dropping (definitely not to B- tho), the LO set is honestly lame as pretty much any balance can stall it out until it kills itself and while its annoying for more BO/HO builds its not unmanageable for them either. It feels a lot better on paper but in practice it rarely pulls off what you want it to do and its so easy to scout what its running and even more beneficial when its LO bc you get chip as you do it. Unless you predict pretty much perfectly you dont get much out of this mon, which makes it awfully inconsistent. I think it fits better in A/A- than A+.

I also think Kyurem deserves a rise to A+. The specs set's notoriously hard to switch in to, with only a handful of checks that are all quite shaky (Jirachi can't take epower, SpD clef can only really PP stall it with wish tect etc) and it's not 1 dimentional either, being able to do a sub roost set and I've even seen DD. It's probably the scariest mon in the tier imo and deserves to be above stuff like ferro and terrak.
 
Gastrodon does not hard wall life orb zeraora lol. If you are max special defense you are getting 2hko'd by close combat.

The optimum spread for gastrodon to take on life orb zeraora is 252hp, 44def, 212 sp def with a calm nature. Running this spread you take equal damage from both cc and grass knot. Without rocks up you have an 8.2% chance of getting 2hko'd by cc.

4 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Gastrodon: 198-234 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Gastrodon: 198-233 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With rocks up you are getting 2hko'd 60.5% of the time.

4 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Gastrodon: 198-234 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Nice hard wall you found there.
 
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Ruft

You're boned
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Won OST Predictions
Zeraora offers:
  • the highest natural Speed of all relevant Pokemon,
  • a stellar offensive typing that allows it to abuse Corviknight and threaten out other very common Pokemon like Toxapex and Mandibuzz,
  • amazing coverage options that make it practically unwallable,
  • setup capabilities with Bulk Up,
  • an Electric immunity.
It also has skyhigh usage in SPL (3rd most used Pokemon in week 7, 4th most in week 8) and even warps the metagame around it by doing stuff like having Dugtrio run Focus Sash (or Choice Scarf) to revenge kill it. People are also really overstating how frail it is; it has 88/75/80 defenses which allows it live stuff like Earth Power from Seismitoad/Gastrodon even with a -SpD nature. Looking at these factors it's easily deserving of A+ if you ask me.
 
Zeraora is one of those mons that can sweep an entire team if you don't have a counter to it. It obviously can't sweep EVERY team (that would make it banned from the meta), but with the right set you can destroy nearly everything.

So, it's not the most powerful, but it is extremely threatening to most mons currently in the metagame. Since it ruins most high usage pokemon currently in OU play (Corvi/Dragapult/Toxapex/Ferrothorn/Mandibuzz) it's pretty reasonable to say it's A+ rank.. Even Magic Guard Clefable can get ruined by it with one Bulk Up.

When more pokemon get released into the metagame it will drop again though, since the meta will shift and the mons at the top will change.
 
Vaporeon C ------> C+/B-

This thing is in a very fortunate spot in the metagame right now. It completely blanks non-specs aegi if it runs speed, non-specs pult, duggy, exca, terrak, Cloyster, Vish, Rachi, and a bunch of lower ranked threats. (Most notably Cinderace and Keld.) This thing is just an absolute pain to deal with. Granted, it's definitely not winning any awards for its offenses and it Is checked by Clefable which is a terrible thing in this gen more than any other. However, it works well, surprisingly, on Offense as a great pivot into attacks from many threats that offense has trouble dealing with. (Scarf pult and Terrak particularly come to mind.) This thing is able to take a surprising amount of hits from strong threats and wish up. In addition, home granting Vaporeon toxic is a godsend. It can now whittle down mons it comes in on without having to rely on Scald burns. Putting things on a timer is amazingly useful for setup mons or mons that are otherwise just generally annoying. The chip damage is also much appreciated for things like Zeraora, which love mons having just a little less hp. Obviously its main draw comes from Water Absorb in combination with semi-reliable recovery, a combination that only Gastro and Quag have alike with it. What gives it the edge over Gastro, however, are it's great physical defense, usable speed tier, and wish, which, as Clef has shown us, is a wonderful move for team support.

Here's some calcs

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vaporeon: 245-290 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With protect that's a 0% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vaporeon: 214-253 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vaporeon: 369-435 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 298-352 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's a hit from the Specs set

I'm sure you see my point by now. Vaporeon deserves a rise, as it is one of the most annoyingly bulky pokemon in the meta and supports its team well.
 
Hydregion A+-A

Sorry but this thing has really has kinda fallen off IMO.Theres just so many things faster then it that kill it.Zerora with Play Rough,Dragapult,Terrakion,Durant with either X-Scissor or First Imprssion,Keldeo,Also Cloyster after a boost.The Scarf set is pretty good but so much is able to resist its stabs or just bulk em out.Its still a good mon just not amazing
 
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vaporeon: 245-290 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With protect that's a 0% chance to 2HKO
Quick thing about this calc. One of the reasons that Cloyster is so good rn is its ability to just get past its checks with 1 flinch. Said flinches occur 50% of the time and Vaporeon here is no exception. There's actually about a 49.8% of a 2HKO. Coinflip isn't such great odds. Not to mention, this is Jolly Cloyster, chads run Adamant.

That being said I don't necessarily disagree with a Vape rise, probably to C+ as I definitely prefer it over options currently there (Milotic / Jellicent). Water immunity with Wish role compaction is really good. That being said, I prefer running other Water immunities + a separate wisher, but I can see Vape's niche being more than justifiable in this meta.
 
I think gastodron should get a buff to at least B+ because its so commonly run in ou and it can do so much work against various mons with its ability and movepool (scald and sludge bomb mostly) and its acess to recover. It makes rotom h and w useless and gets a free sludge bomb or scald on whatever switch in. It can be used in various teams with water weakness or really any team because its only weakness is grass. Overall it just does really well against rotom, toxapex, grimmsnarl, cinderace and many other mons such as clefable!
 
I think gastodron should get a buff to at least B+ because its so commonly run in ou and it can do so much work against various mons with its ability and movepool (scald and sludge bomb mostly) and its acess to recover. It makes rotom h and w useless and gets a free sludge bomb or scald on whatever switch in. It can be used in various teams with water weakness or really any team because its only weakness is grass. Overall it just does really well against rotom, toxapex, grimmsnarl, cinderace and many other mons such as clefable!
I think the way to argue for Gastodon is to point out what it does alternatively to/better than Seismitoad, as those 2 are essentially in competition with one another for a spot on a team (Seismitoad gets the nod over Gastrodon due to being a SR user and compressing that role in). If you already have a rocker and need/want a Dracovish answer, then Gastro is cool. Honestly, that is the primary reason I don't think Gastro should move up.
 
I think the way to argue for Gastodon is to point out what it does alternatively to/better than Seismitoad, as those 2 are essentially in competition with one another for a spot on a team (Seismitoad gets the nod over Gastrodon due to being a SR user and compressing that role in). If you already have a rocker and need/want a Dracovish answer, then Gastro is cool. Honestly, that is the primary reason I don't think Gastro should move up.
Gastrodon has recovery and it can threat many mons with scald burns and sludge bomb toxics which can hit many mons
 
Gastrodon has recovery and it can threat many mons with scald burns and sludge bomb toxics which can hit many mons
The Recovery aspect is the only real thing it has over Seismitoad. Toad can threaten with scald burns as well lol, and I mean - Toad does the same thing poisioning wise with Toxic, so that's essentially a moot point as well.
 
The Recovery aspect is the only real thing it has over Seismitoad. Toad can threaten with scald burns as well lol, and I mean - Toad does the same thing poisioning wise with Toxic, so that's essentially a moot point as well.
Gastro can hit clef and other mons in the switch in like grimmsnarl and toxapex.
 
Gastro can hit clef and other mons in the switch in like grimmsnarl and toxapex.
The "hit mons like Clef and Grimmsnarl on the switch in" should be the argument in regards to sludge bomb. Plus, pointing out how Storm Drain enables Gastro to handle Pex easier than Toad due to the SpA boost it gives (as Toad can Earth Power Pex on the switch as well). Having a "Haze type" of option in Clear Smog is another point that can be made in Gastrodon's favour too.
 

zbr

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is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
are we really contemplating the differences between gastro and toad? it's pretty simple. if you have no rocks and want a water check, use toad. if you have rocks and want a water check, use gastro. See? Done.

anyway, I am all for it to raise but that's not the boy i wanna discuss today.

guys can we please put hippo a bit higher on the pedestal? maybe up to A-? Reason for this is just because of how hippo drill core has regained it's popularity from ye old days and on top of that it can check hard hitters like terrak and aegi (physical ones) and with zeraora's recent item change by not utilizing LO as well as the fact that a lot of zeraoras are trending towards more physical orientations is a huge sign that hippo + clef / corvi / drill cores will see a rise. also whirlwind / yawn is godly.

yawn isnt soundproof like what the heck its a goddamned sound
 
Vaporeon C ------> C+/B-

This thing is in a very fortunate spot in the metagame right now. It completely blanks non-specs aegi if it runs speed, non-specs pult, duggy, exca, terrak, Cloyster, Vish, Rachi, and a bunch of lower ranked threats. (Most notably Cinderace and Keld.) This thing is just an absolute pain to deal with. Granted, it's definitely not winning any awards for its offenses and it Is checked by Clefable which is a terrible thing in this gen more than any other. However, it works well, surprisingly, on Offense as a great pivot into attacks from many threats that offense has trouble dealing with. (Scarf pult and Terrak particularly come to mind.) This thing is able to take a surprising amount of hits from strong threats and wish up. In addition, home granting Vaporeon toxic is a godsend. It can now whittle down mons it comes in on without having to rely on Scald burns. Putting things on a timer is amazingly useful for setup mons or mons that are otherwise just generally annoying. The chip damage is also much appreciated for things like Zeraora, which love mons having just a little less hp. Obviously its main draw comes from Water Absorb in combination with semi-reliable recovery, a combination that only Gastro and Quag have alike with it. What gives it the edge over Gastro, however, are it's great physical defense, usable speed tier, and wish, which, as Clef has shown us, is a wonderful move for team support.

Here's some calcs

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vaporeon: 245-290 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With protect that's a 0% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vaporeon: 214-253 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Vaporeon: 369-435 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 298-352 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's a hit from the Specs set

I'm sure you see my point by now. Vaporeon deserves a rise, as it is one of the most annoyingly bulky pokemon in the meta and supports its team well.
I agree with this. I've ran Vaporeon for the niche role of being a wish-passer that also walls Dracovish since I had my Clefable on LO duty, and I've noticed that it certainly can stand its own and take quite a few hits. While I don't think that this thing will be a staple, I definitely feel like this thing deserves the rating you ranked, and for the same reasons you explained.
 
I agree with this. I've ran Vaporeon for the niche role of being a wish-passer that also walls Dracovish since I had my Clefable on LO duty, and I've noticed that it certainly can stand its own and take quite a few hits. While I don't think that this thing will be a staple, I definitely feel like this thing deserves the rating you ranked, and for the same reasons you explained.
Outside of ice beam vap can be potentially baited by sub metronome vish with some crunch drop :

252+ Atk Metronome Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 328-388 (70.6 - 83.6%)

Gotta mention it also lure bunker pex with Eq and totally shit on mantine ;

252+ Atk Metronome Dracovish Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%)

Thanks to knock off support from fat stuff like clef and pex pushing through his actual water absorb counter isn't that hard making that set dumb to deal with in short Vish A- to A
 
Outside of ice beam vap can be potentially baited by sub metronome vish with some crunch drop :

252+ Atk Metronome Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 328-388 (70.6 - 83.6%)

Gotta mention it also lure bunker pex with Eq and totally shit on mantine ;

252+ Atk Metronome Dracovish Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%)

Thanks to knock off support from fat stuff like clef and pex pushing through his actual water absorb counter isn't that hard making that set dumb to deal with in short Vish A- to A
This vaporeon calc is very weird because you're calcing the 5th consecutive hit and with a defense drop. Considering the first hit only does 25, the max hit does 50, and vape has wish + other moves, I don't see how this breaks through. You'll get ice beamed or toxicd or even just scald burned and stalled to death. Similarly the EQ calc is on the 5th consecutive use of the move, and it's likely the Pex would do something back to you in that time, or notice the metronome damage on the second hit and go to an immunity. In fact they'd probly assume you're scarf and just switch out after 1 eq.
I haven't been using vish enough to say whether it deserves a rise, but i don't think these reasons are good enough of an argument.
 
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