Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Pre-DLC]

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This vaporeon calc is very weird because you're calcing the 5th consecutive hit and with a defense drop. Considering the first hit only does 25, the max hit does 50, and vape has wish + other moves, I don't see how this breaks through. You'll get ice beamed or toxicd or even just scald burned and stalled to death. Similarly the EQ calc is on the 5th consecutive use of the move, and it's likely the Pex would do something back to you in that time, or notice the metronome damage on the second hit and go to an immunity. In fact they'd probly assume you're scarf and just switch out after 1 eq.
I haven't been using vish enough to say whether it deserves a rise, but i don't think these reasons are good enough of an argument.
He did mention sub, although he probably should have put some more emphasis on it. With Sub and Metronome, you can break past mono-Scald Vaporeon and pretty much all Toxapex, but you sacrifice either some serious immediate power from Band or revengekilling ability from Scarf, so I'd call it a niche set at best.
 
:ss/stunfisk: to C

You're probably wondering why I'm nomming Stunfisk to be ranked in OU. In fact, you're probably wondering why I used it to begin with. Well, as all of my spicy meme teams start, I pick a few fun looking mons out of a random pokemon generator and build a team around them. Stunfisk ended up putting in some work. Why?

1. Stealth Rock user that beats Defog users

Stunfisk beats Corviknight with Discharge spam and can threaten Mandibuzz and Rotom variants, the latter on the switch-in, with Toxic. It lacks the raw strength necessary to reliably beat Corviknight on paper, but the yellow color means Corviknight usually loses in practice. At the very least it can cripple everything with status effects. This brings us to reason number 2.

2. Paralysis spam

As many ladder and tour players are aware, paralysis has always been bullshit relevant in battle. The current meta has few real answers to Thunder Wave spam, and Discharge functions similarly. It's fantastic for punishing the likes of Clefable, Hydreigon, and Dragapult, which could. otherwise come in on Stunfisk relatively easily. In addition, Static is annoying as hell. Any physical attacker runs the risk of being paralyzed. I've even made use of this by keeping Stunfisk as death fodder, dying to a physical attacker only to paralyze them in return. Incredibly skilled mechanic.

3. Solid Zeraora check

Not too much to say here. Zeraora can't do much to Stunfisk, and Stunfisk KOs with Earth Power in return. Grass Knot doesn't do much since Stunfisk doesn't weigh much, and Knock Off isn't a big deal either.

To summarize, Stunfisk's niche comes from its ability to beat common Defog users, spam paralysis, and check all sets of Zeraora, which other rockers, such as Hippowdon, Kommo-o, and Ferrothorn, cannot do as well or at all.

I recommend this core in particular:

:ss/Clefable: + :ss/Stunfisk:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm Nature
-Wish
-Protect
-Moonblast
-Filler

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 32 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature
-Discharge
-Earth Power
-Stealth Rock
-Toxic

Specially defensive Clefable is a fantastic partner for Stunfisk. It checks powerful special attackers like Hydreigon, Dragapult, and Life Orb Clefable and can keep Stunfisk healthy with Wish. Stunfisk can beat Corviknight and check most physical attackers in general. It also frees up a slot among Clefable's moves since it prevents Clefable from being forced to be the team's Stealth Rock user. EDIT: The speed on Stunfisk is to outrun Toxapex.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1077045780
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1077626891
 
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Hydreigon A+ -> A

This one low-key hurts me to say since a favourite mon of mine is A+ but, however I feel like in comparison to the other pokemon in A he hasn't been seeing as much usage lately, and obviously usage doesn't speak for a pokemons viability entirely, but its felt like the meta rn has been unkind to him. With more support clefs to completely block its scarf set, and fast offensive threats like scarf/wisp pult and Zeraora running around, it seems NP Hydrei can't catch a break either. However, he does get lots of milage vs balance teams if you get a safe nasty plot off, and can still wall break nicely if you have solid switch ins to his checks. Still a A-rank worthy beast but I feel like hes not doing the same work as Zeraora, Kommo, Aegis etc.

In contrast, I'd say;

Kyurem A -> A+

This thing is a demon and I don't think anybody needed to hear that from me. Lots of balance's have a rough time with this thing (specs). Clefs need max spdef to take 2 beams and even then, high rolls could favour you if you manage to knock its leftovers. Exact same applies for Corviknight, max spdef and lefties are needed for a 3hko. Keep in mind, this is only timid specs. There are people who resort to modest and just dominate both of the above mons, leaving balances with clef + corv + rocker + aegis (tanks beams well enough, drops instantly to earth power on a roll or with light chip) very little chances to come in on kyurem. In its in the same boat with hydreigon, where its forced out a lot by like, any offensive mon, but its immediate power is incredible in comparison.
 
Bisharp B+ --> A-


Imo, Bisharp feels a little underrated, Sure Bisharp Does have a Bad Match-up Against Conkeldurr, but you got to consider the fact that it possibly has the most damaging Knock off and Sucker Punch in the OU metagame, it has Defiant that can threaten Defog Users, It's Immune to Prankster Users status moves, and it could threaten OU Top-tier staples, like Zeraora, Aegislash, Clefable, and anything that has low defense.

Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
 
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Slyveon A- ----------------------------> Unranked (or somewhere around here lol)

Lol this pokemon is worse than clefable in every way. Should be UU or like RU lmao. But since its an eeveelution people will use it anyway... look at jolteon in past gen RU. Its a noob trap.

Use clef

(it probably has a nice that lets it stay on the viability rankings but definitely not A- lol)
 
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zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Slyveon is super cute
damn boi I know right? Sylveon IS cute af.

anyway, Sylveon has the ability to use Specs to a better effect, higher Sp Def to give it more specially defensive tanking niche, has Hyper Voice to bypass Subs, can utilise it's decently high HP stat to pass fat wishes, has access to heal bell and quick attack, it's cute too like you mentioned in my quote.

nobody said it was better than clef, that's why the rankings suggests so, it still has a relevant niche in OU due to it's fatter spdef bulk and access to hyper voice.

edit: also i feel like you are unsure of how usage based tierings work? Sylveon by usage is OU so it will stay in OU until it's usage declines.
 

Jordy

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I agree that Sylveon should move down, but unranking it in one go is a little extreme. It definitely faces very, very tough competition from Clefable, but it still retains a slight niche over Clefable with its much better special bulk, which gives it a better matchup against Hydreigon in particular. Moving it down to B- or C+ is much fairer in my eyes.

I also agree that Hydreigon should move down; it's really not on the same level as the rest of the Pokemon in A+, or even most of the Pokemon in A. Hydreigon is really strong on paper, but it is pretty significantly worse in practice; it often struggles to find setup opportunities and, due to its relatively mediocre Speed tier, often won't even be able to grab more than one KO. That said, a lot of teams have been blatantly ignoring Hydreigon lately, so it's definitely going to go up from here.
 

Ausma

Bonafide Monafide!
is a Pre-Contributor
Use primarina if u want to use specs fairy type LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
By that logic, let's just unrank Mandibuzz just because Corviknight is better at Defogging. However, the thing with Mandibuzz is that it has unique attributes that give it a unique niche as a Defogger; for instance, Toxic and a Dark typing. The same goes for Sylveon; it has access to Mystical Fire to break Ferrothorn and co., which Primarina can't do at all in the same vein. Obviously, this is a pretty clear cut example, but my point holds regardless.

You're essentially saying that just because it's outclassed, it doesn't deserve a ranking, despite having shown its proficiency and niche as a defensive/offensive Pokemon in the tier numerous times and in tournament play. I get the impression you haven't really seen any actual OU games based on both your attitude and your very stubborn perspective.
 
damn boi I know right? Sylveon IS cute af.

anyway, Sylveon has the ability to use Specs to a better effect, higher Sp Def to give it more specially defensive tanking niche, has Hyper Voice to bypass Subs, can utilise it's decently high HP stat to pass fat wishes, has access to heal bell and quick attack, it's cute too like you mentioned in my quote.

nobody said it was better than clef, that's why the rankings suggests so, it still has a relevant niche in OU due to it's fatter spdef bulk and access to hyper voice.

edit: also i feel like you are unsure of how usage based tierings work? Sylveon by usage is OU so it will stay in OU until it's usage declines.
Use primarina for specs fairy type lol. Everything else you said it can do clef can do too. Should rank at like C. But it gets to go up two ranks to A cause yknow... eevee
 

Jordy

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Use primarina for specs fairy type lol. Everything else you said it can do clef can do too. Should rank at like C. But it gets to go up two ranks to A cause yknow... eevee
It's not up in A- because it's an eeveelution. Its current ranking is a relic from a past, pre-Home meta, in which its additional special bulk was actually fairly huge as Hydreigon was making waves, and there was less competition from Clefable because 1) Clefable didn't have Soft-Boiled 2) Clefable didn't have Teleport. The reason nothing happened to its ranking in the last update is because we wanted to take a look at how it'd unfold in the new metagame. It has become pretty apparent that Sylveon simply isn't that good anymore, so it'll definitely drop some ranks in the next update. Please be a little more respectful moving forward.
 
can utilise it's decently high HP stat to pass fat wishes, has access to heal bell
These are not niches over Clefable, which has the same base HP stat, and access to Teleport, so it is a better wishpasser.
quick attack
Regrettably, this is still a valid niche at the moment due to Dugtrio, however it is quite situational, so that alone doesn't warrant an A- ranking.
higher Sp Def to give it more specially defensive tanking niche
Sylveon is better against non boosting threats, but worse against boosting sweepers like Hydreigon and Clanger, if you run Unaware. There are admittedly few setup sweepers in the tier, but a team weak to these two threats is much better off with Unaware Clefable. However, there are some special breakers that Clefable is not that good at handling; coupled with the next point
has Hyper Voice to bypass Subs
I think the potency of Kyurem, among other threats, is the main reason why Sylveon should retain a decent ranking. Thanks to Hyper Voice and its high special defense, Sylveon can reliably hard check every variant of Kyurem, where Clefable doesn't take Specs Ice Beam too well and might risk being stalled out if it is not LO or CM (admittedly, this requires very careful plays on the subroost Kyurem's part, but it's something Sylveon is not susceptible to period). Overall I think Sylveon should be somewhere in the B rankings, again mainly because it is much more solid against Kyurem than Clefable while not being *significantly* worse against other special threats like Hydreigon. It is however an objectively worse wishpasser, so its niche is quote limited, in my opinion, it's just valuable enough to not let it drop to the C ranks.
 
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These are not niches over Clefable, which has the same base HP stat, and access to Teleport, so it is a better wishpasser.

Regrettably, this is still a valid niche at the moment due to Dugtrio, however it is quite situational, so that alone doesn't warrant an A- ranking.

Sylveon is better against non boosting threats, but worse against boosting sweepers like Hydreigon and Clanger, if you run Unaware. There are admittedly few setup sweepers in the tier, but a team weak to these two threats is much better off with Unaware Clefable. However, there are some special breakers that Clefable is not that good at handling; coupled with the next point

I think the potency of Kyurem, among other threats, is the main reason why Sylveon should retain a decent ranking. Thanks to Hyper Voice and its high special defense, Sylveon can reliably hard check every variant of Kyurem, where Clefable doesn't take Specs Ice Beam too well and might risk being stalled out if it is not LO or CM (admittedly, this requires very careful plays on the subroost Kyurem's part, but it's something Sylveon is not susceptible to period. Overall I think Sylveon should be somewhere in the B rankings, again mainly because it is much more solid against Kyurem than Clefable while not being *significantly* worse against other special threats like Hydreigon. It is however an objectively worse wishpasser, so its niche is quote limited, in my opinion, it's just valuable enough to not let it drop to the C ranks.
Yeah, to go with your last point, Sylveons ability to safely take on arguably the tiers greatest breaker right now is enough of a niche for me to consider it to stay in relatively high ranks. A- is fine, from what I see. Of course, thats not its only niche, while uncomparable to clef, its still a nice wish passer, and It actually can take on setup hydrei and clanger better than Clef (I know you mentioned unaware, but that is overall a less used and less useful ability right now) due to its much higher spdef stat.
 
Unaware clefable is not really better at dealing with hydreigon because it can't switch into flash cannon if rocks are up.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 133-159 (33.7 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Clefable is also 2hko'd on the switch without rocks if hydreigon gets a sp def drop but Sylveon is not. Sylveon also has a good chance to survive the 2hko with rocks and sp def drop and threaten the ko with hyper voice.

Clefable is obviously still the best fairy (and is S rank for a reason), but I just wanted to point this out.
 
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Sylveon can also better act as a cleric than Clef as well, due to being able to more easily and capably run Heal Bell on its sets. Something you'd have to forgo Teleport on Clef in order to do. Its better special bulk also comes in handy against mons like Kyruem and Drei, as mentioned which should keep it around B rank imo.
 
Tyranitar B+-B-,maybe C+

This thing is just destroyed by so many of the top threats of the meta game.Clefable,Corviknight,Dracovish,,Dugtrio,Mamoswine,Excadrill and Komooo just take it out with little trouble.If it gets a DD up it’s threatening but Corviknight can still taunt it and set up Bulk Up.Often when I use it it just ends up not doing much.Heck the thing can potentially be a help to your opponent if they have a Sand Rush Excadrill(Though that won’t happen often because Ex and TTar are often paired).Its speed is also terrible.Its super easy to take advantage of its speed and kill it with very few things it can outsped

If we look at pros for it though,It’s Dragon Dance set like I said before is threatening if used correctly.It can also make for a good stealth rocker and user of Weakness Policy but that’s about it use Excadrill lol

I’m gonna make a bold prediction and say this thing gonna drop to UU eventually(All though low ladder won’t allow that lol).Its super sad lol for the first time in Smogons history it might drop to UU and I honestly don’t ever think it’s overwhelming down there because Cobalin doesn’t look to be leaving and that completely obliterated it
 
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Tyranitar B+-B-,maybe C+

This thing is just destroyed by so many of the top threats of the meta game. Clefable, Corviknight, Dracovish,, Dugtrio, Mamoswine and Komooo just take it out with little trouble.If it gets a DD up it’s threatening but Corviknight can still taunt it and set up Bulk Up.Often when I use it it just ends up not doing much.

heck I’m gonna make a bold prediction and say this thing gonna drop to UU eventually(All though low ladder won’t allow that lol)
It's not bad because It gets destroyed by OU Top-Tier staples, It's bad because It usually can't counter most Pokemon, because of its Slow Speed stat (in fact, a tyranitar + 31 IVs in speed + 252 EVs in speed + A choice scarf= 364.5 speed, Which is really slow for a scarfer), it has no priority offensive moves, No Knock off, and Gets outclassed by Excadrill
 
Tyranitar B+-B-,maybe C+

This thing is just destroyed by so many of the top threats of the meta game.Clefable,Corviknight,Dracovish,,Dugtrio,Mamoswine and Komooo just take it out with little trouble.If it gets a DD up it’s threatening but Corviknight can still taunt it and set up Bulk Up.Often when I use it it just ends up not doing much.

heck I’m gonna make a bold prediction and say this thing gonna drop to UU eventually(All though low ladder won’t allow that lol)
I'd prolly go further and drop TTar to C. It's honestly sad how "mid" this mon has become. It's really not the threat it has been in the past nor does it even do enough defensively to warrant a spot on a team honestly.
 

Finchinator

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Jordy

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Hey everyone, Finchinator's been quite busy these past couple days so I'm here with the VR update for you!

Ranking Update
Code:
Rises:
Clefable S → S+
Rotom-H A+ → S-
Conkeldurr A → A+
Ferrothorn A → A+
Seismitoad A → A+
Dracovish A- → A
Bisharp B+ → A-
Hippowdon B+ → A+
Obstagoon B+ → A-
Primarina B → A-
Snorlax B → B+
Chandelure C+ → B+
Incineroar C+ → B+
Rhyperior C+ → B-
Darmanitan C → C+
Diggersby C- → C+
Quagsire C- → C
Salazzle UR → B
Galarian Weezing UR → C-

Drops:
Corviknight S → S-
Sylveon A- → C+
Hatterene B+ → B
Rotom-W B+ → B-
Tyranitar B+ → B
Ditto B → C+
Mantine B → C
Dracozolt B- → C
Sigilyph B- → C
Celebi C+ → C
Copperajah C- → UR
Galarian Corsola C- → UR
First things first, we decided that a division in the S ranks was due. The creation of the S+ rank is very easy to justify, as Clefable is just that good. However, we felt that putting other Pokemon in S did not accurately reflect just how far ahead Clefable really is, so we have also created the S- rank to reflect that better. Here are some explanations for every change that impacts the A ranks and upwards.


This should be a surprise to nobody who has played SS OU recently; Clefable is so far ahead of the rest of the metagame to the point where you are actively hurting your team if you don't run it, save for hyper offensive teams. This rise to S+ signifies just how far ahead Clefable is of the rest of the metagame.


Rotom-H has been seeing more and more consistent usage, and it is an incredible Pokemon right now. It's very versatile defensively, checking Pokemon such as Corviknight, Togekiss, and Sand Rush Excadrill, and a really strong wallbreaker that is very self sufficient as it often gets the opportunity to cripple its checks with Toxic. All of this is very valuable in the current metagame and we believe that a Rise to S- is deserved.


Corviknight's not quite as good as it was previously, though still easily a top 3 Pokemon in the metagame. A small drop to S- reflects this.


With more people using Close Combat on Conkeldurr, it's really proven that it can hang as one of the top wallbreakers; there are no defensive checks to Conkeldurr, save for Galarian Weezing, as it 2HKOes the entire defensive metagame at minimum.


Spikes have become increasingly more dominant in this metagame, with Ferrothorn being the primary setter. This rise reflects that.


Sand has seen a big rise in usage over the past month or so, and Hippowdon is the cornerstone of this archetype. Hippowdon is very versatile defensively, checking Pokemon such as Terrakion, Excadrill, and physical Aegislash with ease, while serving as a potent Stealth Rock setter and an enabler of one of the strongest potential winconditions in the metagame; Sand Rush Excadrill.


Dracovish has been gaining traction, so naturally Seismitoad is going to too. Seismitoad's a very useful role compresser right now as a Stealth Rock setter and one of the very few Dracovish checks.


More people have been recognizing just how potent Dracovish is in this metagame, so a small rise to A is due.

If you've got any questions with regards to these changes, you should ask them in the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread, or you can choose to PM Finchinator about it. This thread will be locked for 24 hours so that everyone can gather their thoughts first.
 

Srn

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Thoughts on some of the VR changes:

Personally idt obstagoon should be raised. It's really not that effective of a wallbreaker, and though it has cool tricks like switcheroo flame orb, bulk up, taunt, and obstruct, it really struggles with the standard defensive picks like helmet hippo, pex, and body press corv+ferro. I just don't see how it has gotten better or why I would choose it over some other wallbreaker, but if anybody wants to correct me w/replays or cool sets im open.

I also don't think celebi should've dropped, especially when vish/conk are raised in the same change. I think a set like this with celebi is most viable:
Celebi @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Recover
- U-turn

With the speed investment, you hit 250, enough for ada band vish, but you can easily go higher to hit modest venu or w/e. You run colbur to minimize long term knock off damage, as well as eat a crunch from vish. T-wave is your best bet and being not passive, and ur generally catching clef/corv/dragapult/etc with t-waves so it pairs great with a hex pult of your own. The point is, you're a very serviceable vish/conk/zeraora check and this hasn't changed, so I see no reason to drop celebi. With natural cure, you're also a uniquely comfortable pivot into pokemon like seismitoad and toxapex, because you don't mind eating toxic or knock off. It's fine right at C+ with this shaky but still unique set.

I dont think mantine should even be kept at C, it's a total non-threat without metronome as a swift swimmer, and I personally don't see it as a worthwhile vish check with water absorb when banded outrage does 60.4 - 71.3%. It should just be unranked.

Some VR changes I'd make:

Gengar A- --> B+

I never really thought gengar was good enough to stand out from aegislash and pult, and idt this has changed. It's a really strong wallbreaker that can get free turns off of the omnipresent wishport clef, but it's still frail, very prone to revenge killing from the 3 main speed control mons in the tier (pult, zera, exca under sand), and it still needs some support to chip checks if ur using NP black sludge or hex/venoshock sets. I just don't think gengar is that much better than chandelure, and they should both be at the same tier imo.

Grimmsnarl B-->B+

Screens HO is still fairly rare in the tour scene, but it's really been picking up in high ladder, and grimmsnarl should be raised to reflect this. It's one of the most effective teamstyles rn that still allows for a lot of creativity, and people are starting to go beyond the standard bisharp/cloyster/dd pult/zeraora/sd aegislash esque builds of old that got merked by melmetal. I havent tried out any non screens grimm sets, as I think it will have a very tough time breaking standard physical walls, but I think the rise of screens HO is enough to warrant a rise for grimm.

Necrozma B-->A-

Like I mentioned earlier, screens HO is evolving and necrozma is a product of that. I'm really surprised it's still this low, because necrozma is crazy fuckin good. As both a set up sweeper and wallbreaker, it's very powerful and bulky, and its main checks are pokemon like hydreigon and ttar, both of which don't have great longevity. What sets it apart from more MU fish mons like cosmic power mew is its strength to blast through toxic/ww mons like toad and hippo, a +1 photon geyser is gonna blow through both with any minor chip, like a cc from lead terrak.

I wouldn't suggest such a big rise without some replays, so here we go:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1106444516 one misstep from opponent let necrozma break through special walls for teammates to clean.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1104031407 I set up too early, but here's an example of necrozma breaking through mandibuzz, even without screens.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108576795 clean sweep vs some goofy shit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108572814 gets me out of a tight spot, also an example of some experimental HO from lord storm zone.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1108589563 Grimm sets up a clean sweep, photon geyser breaks through mimikyu, a common HO roadblock.

I can give some more if needed (including some private replays), but I think its clear that necrozma is gonna be a screens HO staple moving forward. It has good MUs vs common defensive cores like clef/corv/toad and clef/corv/hippo/pex, and while it is slower than exca under sand, it has the bulk even outside of screens to eat hits and ohko common revenge killers.
Here's the set I'm running
Necrozma @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
- Calm Mind
- Rock Polish

Modest max speed to outpace adamant diggersby, dracovish, etc. Modest > Timid because all u rly miss is modest venu/chandy and jolly cloy, and even with timid you're still outsped by jolly exca so i'd rather have power

Rock Polish > Autotomize bc less damage from heavy slam/heat crash is more relevant than less damage from low kick/gknot

I think RP 3 attacks is garbo, u need CM to break through mons like clef, and power gem barely helps with hydra/ttar. CM Moonlight is a set that some have vouched for, and I can see it working on bulkier teams, breaking down fat teams better with reliable recovery. That set would probably benefit a ton from partners like snorlax and cleric support. Either way, Necrozma is a super potent force that separates itself from mew with more power, bulk, and photon geyser, and should be ranked higher.
 
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