Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [See post #274]

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C ->B-

Haxorus @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
I think putting Haxorus so low on the VR is outrageous for the reason that he hits like a semi truck
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 334-394 (94.8 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 370-436 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 268-316 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 352-416 (108.3 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 542-638 (149.7 - 176.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 306-360 (126.9 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 676-796 (225.3 - 265.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 256-302 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 300-354 (80.2 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So many things that are very common in the meta get absolutely destroyed by a banded Haxorus thats why I love this pokemon so much. If someone stars with a Hydreigon like so many have done when they see my Haxorus on team preview I use first impression and kill one of there most powerful mons. It also does a very nice job killing a weakened dragapault and just about any other mon. I think this deserves heavy review with the killing power it has.
 

Pokeseba

Banned deucer.
C to B- (Agree)
It really is a beast, OHKO / 2HKO to a large part of OU, so I doubt it has counters, only very specific things can cope with it, Dragon Dance and Choice Band are really destructive sets, which makes it worthy to be something more than C, but I want it to be higher than B-, it's because you need some support, but it's excellent in your niche

and my nom:
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C- to B-
Thanks to the darmanitan galar ban, he is no longer surpassed by him, because basically Darmanitan galar had CB + Gorilla Tactics and Durant takes with Hustle + Choice Band, but people preferred to darmanitan galar, because their attacks did not usually fail, in I change those of durant yes, but now that Darmanitan Galar is gone, Durant is a very viable and very strong option, basically like Haxorus, hits 2HKO or OHKO to much of the metagame and only has a defensive weakness, but that if, need some support.
 
dragapult is good but i don't think it's a+ level. people honestly just slap it onto teams as a glue pokemon, but in reality it is truly is just a hit and miss pokemon. the specs set is consistent, but i honestly find myself using gengar more due to its access to sludge wave for clefable and to hit certain pokemon harder than what shadow ball can. dragapult is still great, don't get me wrong. i just don't like seeing it in the same rank as more consistent threats like hydreigon and rotom-h.

cinderace should honestly be b, maybe b- tbh. this pokemon is overhyped due to court change, which isn't that great of a move to be honest since once hazards are on both sides of the field, it is a waste of a moveslot. on top of that it is walled by seismitoad and sometimes even fails to nab the 2hko on certain variants of clefable. the fact that sylveon walls it is kind of embarrasing. i have never seen this thing put in work unless it is in blaze range when i used it, and likewise it never does shit to me. it's an imposter of a threat and needs to be ranked lower until it gets libero. the choice band set is the only set i would consider using at the moment.

lastly, i think hydreigon should be s rank. it's honestly way too fucking good right now to not run it on like 80% of your teams. it shreds every defensive core with the np + 3 attacks set. the sub nasty plot is a menace in a similar way except it can dodge toxic from seismitoad and capitalize on rotom forms. it is also the best choice scarf user in the tier. there is really not much to say that whatever the thread has already said. the results hydreigon produces in every game is unreal.
 
Hello, I would like to nominate:
:diggersby:
Diggersby
Unlisted -> C or C-

Generally, Diggersby is a dual type of Normal/Ground, with access to Huge Power and a remarkable speed tier, gives it a huge power-up against defensive walls such as Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Sylveon and Clefable. I personally think this mon is worth to be discussed in the current meta, especially with ghost types such as Dragapult, Aegislash, Gengar and Corsola roaming around and I will be explaining these in details:

So first of all, the typing itself, makes it a safe switch-in into choiced-locked ghost users such as Dragapult, Aegislash and Gengar while threatening them with the potential Earthquake, as well as choiced locked electric types such as Rotom formes and Toxtricity. One interesting set which is Substitute Diggersby completely walls Galarain-Corsola.

Next, the moves, it has access to Fire, Ice and Thunder Punch, while together with its initial STAB Normal/Ground moves (Quick Attack, Body Slam, Earthquake) where Quick Attack picks up weakened mon as well as knocking out Hawlucha if it has <50% HP , are more than enough to cover most things in OU right now, though I find Ice punch to be less useful comparing to the other two moves, where Thunder Punch shatters Pelipper, Gyarados, Corviknight, Crawdaunt and Ludicolo while Fire Punch devastate Ferrothorn, Corviknight, air-ballooned Aegislash, rotomM and Ribombee(follow up by a quick attack). Substitute is good as it can use it after switching into choice locked users and land a powerful blow on checks that comes into it. Another move is Sword Dance which makes Quick Attack to 2hko mons that aren't resist to it, and makes Fire Punch a potential one-hit KO move on unsuspected Corviknight.

In a nutshell, I feel like Diggersby deserve attention as it serves similar role as SirFetch'd and Conkeldurr, which access to powerful priority and STAB moves, and mainly as a wallbreaker. Thank you for your attention.

I will be emphasising calc and replays using this set
Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Substitute

Calc:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 348-411 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 374-445 (115.4 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 317-374 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 268-320 (88.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 129-152 (43.2 - 51%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1045478787
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1046045704
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047279806
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1045474822
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047276199 (lucha vs digg)
 
1579494735473.png
B+ to A

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch

From my experience (~1500 ladder rank), I think Tyranitar is a really underrated Pokemon in the current meta game. Although it has previously been known to have a lot of set flexibility, I really think the only viable set this generation is Choice Band. Dragon Dance takes an additional turn to boost its attack, and Stealth Rocks just aren't as useful as they used to be with S Rank Corviknight / Clefable on nearly every team, along with the addition of Heavy Duty Boots. Sand Stream is a great alternative for passive damage on some Pokemon, as hazards aren't as prevalent. This set can OHKO / 2HKO every Pokemon from S to B+ tier, except for Defensive Kommo-o and Hippowdon which are both niche picks (Max Def Corviknight can also check it, but is a pretty rare EV spread and can still be 2HKO with a Stone Edge crit). One could argue that it is a prediction heavy Pokemon, but honestly you are clicking Stone Edge / Crunch like 75% of the time for most switches. Conkeldurr can safely switch in, however must use Mach Punch to kill if heavily damaged, allowing for an easy pivot to a Ghost type. Tyranitar can come in pretty easily on most special attacks, however you must be cautious that he doesn't come in on a super effective attack or Specs Draco Meteor. You can also run Sand Rush Excadrill alongside Tyranitar, however I think the Mold Breaker set with Swords Dance is much better, so it's not really necessary to pair the two.

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047827769
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047770040
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1044783940
 
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Hello, I would like to nominate:
:diggersby:
Diggersby
Unlisted -> C or C-

Generally, Diggersby is a dual type of Normal/Ground, with access to Huge Power and a remarkable speed tier, gives it a huge power-up against defensive walls such as Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Sylveon and Clefable. I personally think this mon is worth to be discussed in the current meta, especially with ghost types such as Dragapult, Aegislash, Gengar and Corsola roaming around and I will be explaining these in details:

So first of all, the typing itself, makes it a safe switch-in into choiced-locked ghost users such as Dragapult, Aegislash and Gengar while threatening them with the potential Earthquake, as well as choiced locked electric types such as Rotom formes and Toxtricity. One interesting set which is Substitute Diggersby completely walls Galarain-Corsola.

Next, the moves, it has access to Fire, Ice and Thunder Punch, while together with its initial STAB Normal/Ground moves (Quick Attack, Body Slam, Earthquake) where Quick Attack picks up weakened mon as well as knocking out Hawlucha if it has <50% HP , are more than enough to cover most things in OU right now, though I find Ice punch to be less useful comparing to the other two moves, where Thunder Punch shatters Pelipper, Gyarados, Corviknight, Crawdaunt and Ludicolo while Fire Punch devastate Ferrothorn, Corviknight, air-ballooned Aegislash, rotomM and Ribombee(follow up by a quick attack). Substitute is good as it can use it after switching into choice locked users and land a powerful blow on checks that comes into it. Another move is Sword Dance which makes Quick Attack to 2hko mons that aren't resist to it, and makes Fire Punch a potential one-hit KO move on unsuspected Corviknight.

In a nutshell, I feel like Diggersby deserve attention as it serves similar role as SirFetch'd and Conkeldurr, which access to powerful priority and STAB moves, and mainly as a wallbreaker. Thank you for your attention.

I will be emphasising calc and replays using this set
Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Substitute

Calc:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 348-411 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 374-445 (115.4 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 317-374 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 268-320 (88.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 129-152 (43.2 - 51%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1045478787
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1046045704
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047279806
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1045474822
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047276199 (lucha vs digg)
I'd like to second this because I've been having success with Diggersby as well. I initially threw him on a team just for fun because I always thought that it was a cool mon, but I was really impressed with how much work it managed to put in on the ladder. I also just want to add a little thing too. You mentioned it learning thunder punch for coverage, but it also learns wild charge which, although it reduces its longevity, especially with life orb, the extra damage makes a significant different different. Notably, for the calc you posted at +2 with life orb against Corviknight, you chose fire punch as the move, only having an 18.8% of OHKing. However, look at what happens when you use wild charge:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 419-494 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Good post though, it's an underrated mon for sure. The banded set is cool too for how strong of a priority move it gives for revenge killing, and just for the immediate damage in general. It has the downside of being quite prediction reliant though.
 

Pokeseba

Banned deucer.
:diggersby:
Diggersby
Unlisted -> C or C-
Well, very creative nom, but here I will give my opinion.
1579555375352.png
UR to C+ / B- (Agree)
Really if I see that it is viable, but it has quite limited niches (that does not mean that it is not feasible in OU), Huge Power + Swords Dance is a set that can sweep entire teams, it needs support with sticky web, but it is very good, Body Slam + Earthquake is a lethal combination, only Corviknight resists, which eats Fire Punch damage, basically Diggersby finds a niche in OU with Swords Dance and Huge Power.
Missing his band set, that no OU enters so easily, Fire Punch + Earthquake + Body Slam / Mega Kick that few mons enter, Corviknight does not evade 2HKO from Fire Punch and is somewhat decent, because this mon has no counters, but this last set , has the problem that you need to predict well and Diggersby's idea is to hit, but it will always be one of the few wallbreakers that break all defensive pokemon (and probably the only one), C+ / B- is perfect
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 382-452 (95.5 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 291-346 (95.7 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 516-608 (130.9 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 409-484 (103.8 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 473-559 (114.2 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 265-312 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 432-510 (122.7 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 516-608 (127.7 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 411-486 (126.8 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 539-636 (116.1 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 325-383 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

1579539046489.png
B+ to A (Disagree)
I disagree, their real niches have disappeared and while Choice Band is lethal (which is my reason for not lowering it to C rank, but I would), it is very slow and unlike Sylveon Specs in XY, Tyranitar does not stop Pokemon that threatens, should threaten Hydreigon and Flash Cannon + Life Orb, manages to hit a very strong blow (I even think it's OHKO), so that leaves Tyranitar in a difficult situation, apart from losing Pursuit and Knock Off, something that Tyranitar was excellent, now without that, it is not so good anymore, my only reason to use it is because it is one of the few viable rock type, but is something bad, although so little is pity.

and my own nom:
1579537356380.png
S to S+
Clefable is the best OU without a doubt, it fits into many teams and its versatility leads it to force many teams to carry things like Arcanine, Flareon or Centiskorch, basically centralizing the metagame excessively, so S+ rank would be ideal
 
View attachment 219528 S to S+
Clefable is the best OU without a doubt, it fits into many teams and its versatility leads it to force many teams to carry things like Arcanine, Flareon or Centiskorch, basically centralizing the metagame excessively, so S+ rank would be ideal
We had this discussion about Lando-T last generation (a far more centralizing threat than Clefable), and the final decision was that the S+ subrank is reserved for Pokemon like Primal Groudon, who are nearly ubiquitous in their tier and over-centralizing to an absurd level, and that were such a Pokemon ever to be present in OU, it would likely be banworthy. Clefable is far from banworthy, and while it may arguably be the best single Pokemon in the tier, it's not so much better than the others that it deserves an exclusive subrank to indicate that, nor is it even close to as centralizing as P-Don.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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View attachment 219533 B+ to A (Disagree)
I disagree, their real niches have disappeared and while Choice Band is lethal (which is my reason for not lowering it to C rank, but I would), it is very slow and unlike Sylveon Specs in XY, Tyranitar does not stop Pokemon that threatens, should threaten Hydreigon and Flash Cannon + Life Orb, manages to hit a very strong blow (I even think it's OHKO), so that leaves Tyranitar in a difficult situation, apart from losing Pursuit and Knock Off, something that Tyranitar was excellent, now without that, it is not so good anymore, my only reason to use it is because it is one of the few viable rock type, but is something bad, although so little is pity.
Let the record show that Tyranitar never learned Knock Off.

And please know what you are talking about before posting; play the metagame, use the Pokemon, and understand their niche so that you can contribute positively moving forward if you wish to. This goes for everyone.
 
Hello, I would like to nominate:
:diggersby:
Diggersby
Unlisted -> C or C-

Generally, Diggersby is a dual type of Normal/Ground, with access to Huge Power and a remarkable speed tier, gives it a huge power-up against defensive walls such as Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Sylveon and Clefable. I personally think this mon is worth to be discussed in the current meta, especially with ghost types such as Dragapult, Aegislash, Gengar and Corsola roaming around and I will be explaining these in details [...]
I havr to agree with nomination, Diggersby has a lot of value, but in case I didn't miss it in this nomination:
Do people remember Spikes Greninja? It was a crazy mon which setup Spikes instead of a Setup Move/Sub when the Counter tried to switch.

- We have choiced Ghost AND electric type moves in OU
- We have a Rapid Spinner weak to Ground Moves
-Defoggers are weak to Thunderpunch
-Offensive Ground Types are rare in OU, only Excadrill as an option

Diggersby
Life Orb
Jolly
Spikes
Earthquake
Thunderpunch(Corv, Mand)
Quick Attack/Body Slam(run Priority)
tl;dr Spikes is great. Quick Attack can KO Court Changing, weakened Cinderace btw
 
1579539046489.png

B+ to A (Disagree)
I also disagree with the tyranitar nomination because it just doesn't do enough damage. there is too many Mons that just destroy this pokemon when it comes to actual game play it looks very good on paper but something like a hydregion can switch on on almost any move and get a nasty plot and kill you're whole team it is a lot more viable using stealth rock rest rock tomb and crunch making rotom heat not able to kill it and it doesnt take very much from a volt switch i think tyranitar is completely fine where it is at
That being said i have another nomination

Obstagoon B+ ->>> A-
Obstagoon is an insanely powerful Pokemon doing 97.5 percent at minimum meaning you only need a u turn on corv to kill a s tier mon it also one shots dragapault bisharp excadrill and will kill ferro if it tries to come in on it this pokemon is an insanely powerful mon and just kills most of the meta very easily given it does get walled by pex and soft walled by corv it is a very good mon to use and I will definatly be using it myself
 
I think Hatterene and maybe even Cinderace are ranked a bit high at B+. Cinderace just doesn't really do much in games where it doesn't get a good court change and court change itself is kind of limiting in terms of how many hazards you yourself can set up. It's a very high risk high reward hazard removal and I frequently find myself wishing that I just had defog and a better fire type. On top of that it doesn't hit all that hard. It's a good mon to be sure but like, is it on the level of Sylveon/Tyranitar? I dunno man.
Same for Hatterene, I just don't really see this mon do all that much. It's not very easy to bring in between weaknesses to steel and ghost and a hilariously low speed stat. Magic Bounce is nice in a gen where very little has it but I feel like Hat needs so much support to get stuff going. I'll admit I haven't played too much with Hat since dynamax got banned but I just have not been seeing it do much work at all, it just strikes me as something that's outclassed a specially defensive mon, a fairy type and a hazard controller. It fills all three of those roles, but not as good as other stuff in the tier. Honestly I wouldn't even consider running it personally unless I was running trick room and trick room has never really been that dominant a force

What are you guys running on Cinderace/Hatterene and how is it working out for you? What am I missing about these mons?
 
This is my first contribution to, not only the Viability Ranking thread, but Smogon as a whole. After playing Showdown for close to 6 years, and OU a lot more post-release of PKMN S/S, I feel as if I have enough of a grasp of the current meta to share my opinions. As it's my first post, I apologise if I've left anything out, formatted anything wrong or not provided a good enough argument to support the changes - if anyone thinks I've made an invalid point or agrees and wants to expand on it then I'd be happy for it :)

1579642576260.png

C to B-
In my opinion, Haxorus is a very underrated Pokemon in this OU meta. It has a plethora of moves to deal with common threats (such as Close Combat, Outrage, Earthquake, Poison Jab, Crunch, Iron Tail, Rock Slide and First Impression), meaning that it can act as a revenge killer for a lot of the top tier threats. This multitude of strong competitive moves also allows Hax to not be another 1-dimensional wallbreaker as it can shift around it's moveset to accommodate for the team that it's implemented in. Also, with the ability to run support moves, like Dragon Dance and Substitute, it has a fairly easy time switching in and setting up in front of common walls like Ferrothorn and Toxapex. As well, Hax can be ran with various items; Choice Band can allow for harder hits, making it easier to revenge kill slower mons, Haban Berry allows for Hax to take a hit from a Sub+Disable Dragapult and revenge kill it with Outrage and Expert Belt or Life Orb allow for more unrestricted power and also the ability to still set up in front of opposition. Leftovers could also be used for added longevity.
+1 252 Atk Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 230-271 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 401-473 (113.9 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 52 Def Rotom-Heat: 514-610 (169.6 - 201.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 281-331 (86.4 - 101.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Corviknight: 199-235 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

1579642592920.png

B to B-
Dracozolt is strong, don't get me wrong. Adamant, Hustle, potentially Banded Bolt Beak on a Base 100 ATK mon is definitely something to be feared. However, I feel like there are too many common counters to Zolt, meaning that it is rendered as more of a niche sweeper. The majority of teams run a water-immunity mon as Dracovish is a huge threat without, however this staple mon is 9 times out of 10 either a Seismitoad or Gastrodon, which serve as hard counters to Zolt due to their electric-immunity and defensive typing. Also, other common ground-type mons, such as Excadrill, Hippowdon and Mamoswine force Zolt out and can't really be touched by it. Also, Dugtrio completely obliterates this mon. Overall, teams in the current meta form a 'natural protection' over Zolt as ground-type mons are ever-present, it is easy to work around and doesn't provide a great deal of threat. As well, every move coming from Zolt is essentially a Stone Edge due to Hustle, meaning that Zolt can also be unreliable. I do appreciate that Zolt does have it's place in the meta, and is still insanely powerful when matched with common threats and walls, such as Corviknight and Toxapex, however I think it's place in the meta is diminishing and I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop to UU in the next tier shift.

(I'll redo Morpeko nomination soon in the correct format)
 
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:tyranitar:
B+ to A (Agree)
While it is much more one-dimensional than it used to be, Tyranitar can deal serious damage off of a single bad decision from the opponent. Very few Pokemon can afford to switch into a CB Tyranitar without having a massive chunk of health taken off, and usually, they have one turn to make that switch count. Echoing jamba's point, Pokemon that take neutral damage are usually 2HKO'd. CB Tyranitar really does get at least 2HKOs on virtually any Pokemon even in the high viability rankings. It quite clearly is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier.

Here are some examples going down the viability rankings. These EV spreads were taken from analysis and usage stats. I don't feel these are the absolute best points, but I hope they contribute at least a little bit to the discussion.
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 241-285 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 192-226 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 300-354 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 190-225 (45.8 - 54.3%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    • It is possible to threaten Tyranitar through various means with Seismitoad. It gets Earthquake and fighting coverage is possible. As a result, this one is a bit shaky, in my personal opinion.
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Black Sludge recovery
While Tyranitar is easily worn down by residual damage and has significant drawbacks, history has shown they are rarely an issue in the hands of an experienced player. The point is that once he's in, a single turn can flip the game on its head. And facilitating that isn't exactly hard when let's say, Corviknight, can make such an excellent pivot with a slow U-Turn, for example. I really have no idea what some of the people are talking about here regarding it not dealing enough damage, it's bonkers how much it can do. I hope those damage calcs can emphasise that.

Anyway, I'm gonna sound like a broken record if I continue droning on. Tyranitar deserves A Tier.
 
I think Hatterene and maybe even Cinderace are ranked a bit high at B+. Cinderace just doesn't really do much in games where it doesn't get a good court change and court change itself is kind of limiting in terms of how many hazards you yourself can set up. It's a very high risk high reward hazard removal and I frequently find myself wishing that I just had defog and a better fire type. On top of that it doesn't hit all that hard. It's a good mon to be sure but like, is it on the level of Sylveon/Tyranitar? I dunno man.
Same for Hatterene, I just don't really see this mon do all that much. It's not very easy to bring in between weaknesses to steel and ghost and a hilariously low speed stat. Magic Bounce is nice in a gen where very little has it but I feel like Hat needs so much support to get stuff going. I'll admit I haven't played too much with Hat since dynamax got banned but I just have not been seeing it do much work at all, it just strikes me as something that's outclassed a specially defensive mon, a fairy type and a hazard controller. It fills all three of those roles, but not as good as other stuff in the tier. Honestly I wouldn't even consider running it personally unless I was running trick room and trick room has never really been that dominant a force

What are you guys running on Cinderace/Hatterene and how is it working out for you? What am I missing about these mons?
Hat I can see around B, just because she's so slow. Definitely a "needs team support to work effectively" mon because of the relative ubiquity of Dragapult, Corvi, Hydregion, and other less notable but still monstrous mons like Lucario, Reuniclus, Bisharp, Obstagoon, and Gengar. I've been running Gardevoir instead and will eventually nom here as an alt-Hat but need more time to collect replays - but the point is that coverage that Fire/Fairy/Psychic provides can be very threatening, especially on a bulky CM user who can't be poisoned.

Cinderace, on the other hand, is a solid B+ mon imo. It has some coverage options like Psychic Fangs, Sucker Punch, and Hi Jump Kick, while also filling a rare anti-hazard niche and acting as fast sweeper in a tier of middling speed stats. Yes, its walled by water types, but it has U-Turn and can abuse common team compositions by allowing potent breaker teammates a free entry against the walls that are so inclined to swap into it. I see it similarly to Tapu Koko last gen, filling the role of "mon who's fast, but not fast enough, strong, but not strong enough, and versatile, but not versatile enough - but with all these traits and the ability to pivot, it is no less a threat." At the very least, Court Change forces an important metagame dynamic because it abuses fat hazard teams, and is unforgiving to the tier's popular Defoggers/Spinners - Mandibuzz, Corviknight, and Excadrill, in particular.
 
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1579539046489.png

B+ to A (Disagree)
I also disagree with the tyranitar nomination because it just doesn't do enough damage. there is too many Mons that just destroy this pokemon when it comes to actual game play it looks very good on paper but something like a hydregion can switch on on almost any move and get a nasty plot and kill you're whole team it is a lot more viable using stealth rock rest rock tomb and crunch making rotom heat not able to kill it and it doesnt take very much from a volt switch i think tyranitar is completely fine where it is at
That being said i have another nomination

Obstagoon B+ ->>> A-
Obstagoon is an insanely powerful Pokemon doing 97.5 percent at minimum meaning you only need a u turn on corv to kill a s tier mon it also one shots dragapault bisharp excadrill and will kill ferro if it tries to come in on it this pokemon is an insanely powerful mon and just kills most of the meta very easily given it does get walled by pex and soft walled by corv it is a very good mon to use and I will definatly be using it myself
While I do agree that Obstagoon is a powerful wall breaker I just wanted to point out that it is not doing 97.5% minimum to Corviknight at any point.

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 165-195 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 136-160 (34 - 40%) -- 31.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 118-139 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Obstagoon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 170-202 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I threw a calc for Fire Punch in there too because it hits corv hardest of all Obstagoon’s moves, although I don’t think it’s ran commonly. This is also against the standard Defog set listed on its analysis, I’m sure there are plenty of people out there running more defense.

I do think it does its job as a wallbreaker quite effectively, especially considering most fairies are running more special defensive investment, so it can nuke them with guts boosted facade. With its coverage and STABs it also prevents common defensive Pokémon from switching in without risking a 2HKO such as Ferrothorn, Clefable, Seismitoad, and Sylveon or having their items removed. Plus it likes all the ghosts running around right now. However with fighting types such as Conkeldurr and Kommo-o rising in popularity as well as Corviknight being as popular as it is, I’m on the fence with a raise to A-.
 
View attachment 219664
B to B-
Dracozolt is strong, don't get me wrong. Adamant, Hustle, potentially Banded Bolt Beak on a Base 100 ATK mon is definitely something to be feared. However, I feel like there are too many common counters to Zolt, meaning that it is rendered as more of a niche sweeper. The majority of teams run a water-immunity mon as Dracovish is a huge threat without, however this staple mon is 9 times out of 10 either a Seismitoad or Gastrodon, which serve as hard counters to Zolt due to their electric-immunity and defensive typing. Also, other common ground-type mons, such as Excadrill, Hippowdon and Mamoswine force Zolt out and can't really be touched by it. Also, Dugtrio completely obliterates this mon. Overall, teams in the current meta form a 'natural protection' over Zolt as ground-type mons are ever-present, it is easy to work around and doesn't provide a great deal of threat. As well, every move coming from Zolt is essentially a Stone Edge due to Hustle, meaning that Zolt can also be unreliable. I do appreciate that Zolt does have it's place in the meta, and is still insanely powerful when matched with common threats and walls, such as Corviknight and Toxapex, however I think it's place in the meta is diminishing and I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop to UU in the next tier shift.

(I'll redo Morpeko nomination soon in the correct format)
Agree.

I have also tried volt absorb dracozolt and imo it's not very good especially with all the dugtrio running around. Switches in to rotoms just to get burned, and doesn't do enough damage in general.

The sub hustle set has some decent breaking power for sure but imo it doesn't do enough to it's counters such as seismitoad when you consider it also has a 20% chance to just miss outright. Sub alleviates it's dugtrio weakness somewhat but it's still an issue for it. There are too many electric and dragon immunities for a choice set to work. Might be a decent mon if dugtrio is ever banned but not very good in the current metagame.

Edit: On that point, I think Toxtricity could also drop for the same reasons. I think B tier feels right for its power level but for the reasons stated below I'm gonna make the nomination:


B to B-

It basically suffers from some of the same things that I mentioned dracozolt does above, in particular: There are too many immunities for a choice set to be effective. Almost every team has all of the following: Ground type, Ghost type, Steel type. This basically means that every time you come in with choice Toxtricity it's a massive prediction with very high risk (do no damage + give opponent free turn). Further to that, there are very common pokemon in Excadrill and Ferrothorn which resist both stabs + boom burst. On top of all that the choice specs set, which is the most common set, gets trapped by dugtrio after any kill, the only way to alleviate this is to use volt switch, exacerbating the high risk prediction problem it has. The choice scarf set also gets trapped when using any move except boomburst, so the problem isn't much better there.

Now on to the next point: The Shift Gear throatspray set is just not good. You don't get the SpA boost upon using shift gear, so you then have to use a sound move the next turn to get the boost anyway, it's walled by too much stuff and doesn't do enough damage off the bat. I think one of the issues in general with this mon is that (at least I heard), the ps programmers got it wrong at the start and made punk rock give a 1.5x boost to sound moves instead of 1.3x, this gave people the wrong impression about Toxtricity's power so it seemed a lot better than it is and that stuck in people's heads.

Finally there's some "lure" or something sets going around with like shift gear + physical moves such as fire punch for Ferrothorn, since it gets a decent 98 atk stat. It could be a decent lure for Ferrothorn or Excadrill or something but I don't think it's much more than a gimmick.

Toxtricity also gets outclassed by the ghosts (gengar, aegislash) in quite a few instances/roles.
 
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While I do agree that Obstagoon is a powerful wall breaker I just wanted to point out that it is not doing 97.5% minimum to Corviknight at any point.

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 165-195 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 136-160 (34 - 40%) -- 31.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 118-139 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Obstagoon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Corviknight: 170-202 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I threw a calc for Fire Punch in there too because it hits corv hardest of all Obstagoon’s moves, although I don’t think it’s ran commonly. This is also against the standard Defog set listed on its analysis, I’m sure there are plenty of people out there running more defense.

I do think it does its job as a wallbreaker quite effectively, especially considering most fairies are running more special defensive investment, so it can nuke them with guts boosted facade. With its coverage and STABs it also prevents common defensive Pokémon from switching in without risking a 2HKO such as Ferrothorn, Clefable, Seismitoad, and Sylveon or having their items removed. Plus it likes all the ghosts running around right now. However with fighting types such as Conkeldurr and Kommo-o rising in popularity as well as Corviknight being as popular as it is, I’m on the fence with a raise to A-.
Im sorry i meant on clefable didnt mean corv he doesnt hit him too hard
 

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While Tyranitar's not as bad as people make it out to be pretty often, it should not move up to A or even A- right now. Beyond its obvious flaws, there's also a few notable trends within the metagame that I think should be taken into consideration as well. The most notable of which is Dugtrio. The fact that Dugtrio is as prevalent as it is, is very hard for Tyranitar to deal with and significantly limits its potential as a wallbreaker against bulkier teams. On top of that, Kommo-o and Conkeldurr have been enjoying a pretty big surge in usage the past few weeks, further limiting Tyranitar's potential as a wallbreaker.

I don't think any of the posts made in favor of raising Tyranitar were particularly convincing or did a good job at explaining why Tyranitar should move up. Basically no meta trends in its favor were pointed out; we all know Tyranitar is strong and 2HKOs most bulky Pokemon, that's why it's ranked in B+.

to A-
While Sylveon already rose to B+ last slate, I don't think that's quite high enough. Among the rest of B+, Sylveon definitely stands out as it is significantly more splashable; it's the best check available to Pokemon such as Hydreigon, which makes it a very appealing option very often. On top of that, it's much harder for Pokemon such as Rotom-H to punish it with the discovery of Calm Mind on Sylveon. Sylveon definitely fits in better among Pokemon like Kommo-o, Hippowdon, and Rotom-C.
 
gyarados.png
B- to B

I want to nominate Gyarados from B- to B (at least).

This thing can completely shred a lot of the standard Clefable / Corviknight / Seismitoad type cores with just a single Dragon Dance, and at +2 is only revenge-killed by fast scarfers like Gengar, Dragapult, or Ditto. It also gets easy set-up on CB Dugtrio, other Choice users locked into the wrong move, or any mon relying on status if you're using Lum Berry. I'd say this thing is as threatening as Bisharp at least, so I'd say it deserves a raise to B.

This is the set I've been using mainly, I'm ranked in the mid 1500s.

Gyarados @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Dragon Dance

Intimidate could be nice for easier set-up opportunities, but Moxie helps with breaking Ferro, Mandibuzz, and Corv with the boosts.

Replays: (I don't have many saved, I can add more later)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1050453532
 
View attachment 219763 B- to B

I want to nominate Gyarados from B- to B (at least).

This thing can completely shred a lot of the standard Clefable / Corviknight / Seismitoad type cores with just a single Dragon Dance, and at +2 is only revenge-killed by fast scarfers like Gengar, Dragapult, or Ditto. It also gets easy set-up on CB Dugtrio, other Choice users locked into the wrong move, or any mon relying on status if you're using Lum Berry. I'd say this thing is as threatening as Bisharp at least, so I'd say it deserves a raise to B.

This is the set I've been using mainly, I'm ranked in the mid 1500s.

Gyarados @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Dragon Dance

Intimidate could be nice for easier set-up opportunities, but Moxie helps with breaking Ferro, Mandibuzz, and Corv with the boosts.

Replays: (I don't have many saved, I can add more later)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1050453532
Supporting the nom, but for different reasons. I've been using a pretty effective gyara HO, using a DD rest set:

Gyarados @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 8 HP / 200 Atk / 48 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Power Whip
- Dragon Dance
- Rest

What the EVs do: The HP dodges the 2hko from uninvested corviknight and I dont remember exactly what the SpD was for, but it takes dracos from specs pult and LO hydra, allowing it to rest the damage off. 152 SpD can be ran to dodge the 2hko from specs pult shadow ball as well.

Now, back to why this is so good: It can set up on a bunch of relevant stuff, such as seismitoad, non bulk up corviks and cinderace just to name a few. Rest plays an important role in this, usually seis can timer you with toxic and corvik can deal a decent amount of damage which prevents setup, but rest means you dont really care about this and can beat both of them 1v1. It also lets you to keep out of priority range, which is really useful for offenses. EQ > pwhip lets you beat haze toxapex too, but pex cant do anything back so you can waste its pp regardless.

I think it should move up to B/B+ based on this set as it has carried me a ton on ladder (~1800, was going to get higher ladder replays before I nommed myself but someone brought it up now), and I feel it's massively underrepresented here, being below mons like Mamoswine that idt I've seen put in work at all this gen. I've tried a bunch of HO stuff and this is by far the best thing I've come across.

And to finish off, here's some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1049755206-tcxb7ph5im28l3ei14c42p8mcb0uekipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1048000629-vosqk565b598ss8qhg4i2uept3glxy9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1045032119-r60jinilisu7zrvvt54m7acr0zgyqa8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1048742306-b1bxvnjo6iifioebfaxtzwrg2o3yd9vpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1049218781-gxxd9lrq67oybged695gqu68j0zn5y6pw (this one wasnt a serious game but it shows its capabilities)

Edit: Just wanna mention idt Cinderace should drop, it's been pretty useful to me, outspeeds most the meta and blaze pyro ball is super strong, helping massively V balance/BO. Here's a replay where it makes a comeback:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1048754517-0wzc7pnh3srrij5d5ml54lnlmw14w6ipw
 
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to B
I don't think Cinderace is that great, it offers less for a team than anything B+ has to offer besides switching into Corv and besides having Court Change. Court Change is just not a good enough niche to justify its B+ position as it can't really do much of anything else. Even with its somewhat decent abilities when it comes to hazard control it still has an awful matchup against the most common rocker in Seismitoad and overall a bad matchup against the majority of A- to S, also being trapped by Dugtrio is the last thing you really want. If you want good and viable hazard control, just use Corviknight.

to A+
This mon has top 10 usage in SPL XI atm, and it is not really surprising. Even outside of this Dugtrio is a metagame defining Pokemon right now that absolutely deserves a rise to A+. Its ability to trap and kill metagame staples like Clefable and Toxapex give unbelievable support to threatening mons like Hydreigon, Dragapult and LO Clefable in that it can wreak havoc without their checks/counters getting in the way. It has quite an impact of the meta currently and thus should warrant a rise.
 

B to B-

It basically suffers from some of the same things that I mentioned dracozolt does above, in particular: There are too many immunities for a choice set to be effective. Almost every team has all of the following: Ground type, Ghost type, Steel type. This basically means that every time you come in with choice Toxtricity it's a massive prediction with very high risk (do no damage + give opponent free turn). Further to that, there are very common pokemon in Excadrill and Ferrothorn which resist both stabs + boom burst. On top of all that the choice specs set, which is the most common set, gets trapped by dugtrio after any kill, the only way to alleviate this is to use volt switch, exacerbating the high risk prediction problem it has. The choice scarf set also gets trapped when using any move except boomburst, so the problem isn't much better there.

Now on to the next point: The Shift Gear throatspray set is just not good. You don't get the SpA boost upon using shift gear, so you then have to use a sound move the next turn to get the boost anyway, it's walled by too much stuff and doesn't do enough damage off the bat. I think one of the issues in general with this mon is that (at least I heard), the ps programmers got it wrong at the start and made punk rock give a 1.5x boost to sound moves instead of 1.3x, this gave people the wrong impression about Toxtricity's power so it seemed a lot better than it is and that stuck in people's heads.

Finally there's some "lure" or something sets going around with like shift gear + physical moves such as fire punch for Ferrothorn, since it gets a decent 98 atk stat. It could be a decent lure for Ferrothorn or Excadrill or something but I don't think it's much more than a gimmick.

Toxtricity might seem decent until you realise that Gengar basically does all that Toxtricity can but better, and Toxtricity has very few niches over it.
I agree with quite a bit of what you said here but I can't agree with your points about gengar making toxtricity useless. It has more resistances (albiet no immunities) and a free resist to all sound moves which can be pretty important when you consider how squishy both pokemon can be. Also it has volt switch. Not that gengar isn't necessarily a better mon than toxtricity ( not being super slow and having better coverage is nice) but I don't think you can really draw that much equivalence.
 
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