Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Pre-DLC]

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Ferrothorn: A --> A-/B+ Honestly this doesn't do very much. It's a bad hazard setter, being completely unable to threaten really any remover bar Excadrill (who it doesnt exactly enjoy facing either), can't check very much (the only thing that can't harm you is mow, you can kinda check vish with wish support and as discussed you annoy exca, but thats really if for higher ranks), and isn't hard to wear down. Its not even effective V waters as its basically useless if its scald burned. The only thing this has going for it is it kept knock, but its at the expense of gyro being a really subpar move now bc everything is slow. It's nowhere near where it was last gen and its rank doesn't reflect the dip in usefulness its had.

Reuniclus: B --> C+ Why is this so high in a meta with a ton of ghost and dark threats? I rarely see this and haven't been threatened by it all gen, its not worth using over the more offensive psychics, even Xatu brings more to a team. It's a poor wincon that most teams don't struggle with and should drop.

Ditto B- --> C+: Still isn't low enough imo.

Umbreon C --> C-/UR: I haven't seen this used by a competent player on ladder, I can't find any tour usage for it and seriously doubt it has a niche, it lost toxic this gen and is a free switch in for like every fairy. It handles pult and gengar but is setup bait for far too much for this to be meaningful, notably hydra (that you'd expect this to beat as a dark resist).
 
Ferrothorn: A --> A-/B+ Honestly this doesn't do very much. It's a bad hazard setter, being completely unable to threaten really any remover bar Excadrill (who it doesnt exactly enjoy facing either), can't check very much (the only thing that can't harm you is mow, you can kinda check vish with wish support and as discussed you annoy exca, but thats really if for higher ranks), and isn't hard to wear down. Its not even effective V waters as its basically useless if its scald burned. The only thing this has going for it is it kept knock, but its at the expense of gyro being a really subpar move now bc everything is slow. It's nowhere near where it was last gen and its rank doesn't reflect the dip in usefulness its had.
Ferrothorn's matchup against entry hazard removal really isn't as bad as you seem to think. Because of how slow it is, Ferrothorn will move after their Roost, and be able to hit Corviknight and Mandibuzz with a super effective Body Press, which will force them out rather quickly, especially if you're running Leech Seed. Beyond that, just the ability to potentially remove the items of and paralyze Corviknight and Mandibuzz is of a lot of value as well. On top of its ability to pressure all hazard removal, Ferrothorn's also one of the few Pokemon that can consistently take advantage of specially defensive Clefable, and it will practically always be able to make progress. I don't really think I need to explain just why that is as good as it is.

While it's true that Ferrothorn is not an outstanding check to a lot of Pokemon; SPL has shown that Ferrothorn balance teams are a very prominent and effective team style and I don't really see a reason to drop it at this point in time.
 

Finchinator

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Not disputing the Cinderace drop necessarily, but you mention that he's been less common, and wasn't he in the top 10 usage for January?
| 32 | Cinderace | 4 | 3.33% | 50.00% |

SPL usage has dipped a ton, which is what I was referring to. It is used a lot on a very limited pool of teams on the ladder that are decent and then by a ton of people who are inflating its usage with arguably suboptimal strategies or who are still playing out their new-toy-syndrome visions. I should have explained in more detail in the post, but I genuinely do believe that Cinderace is mediocre in the current metagame and tournament gameplay has been depicting this (specifically by its lack of usage, but also it does not do much when used oftentimes). Court Change and a decent speed tier provide it with a clear-cut niche, but it is not much more than a fringe option at this moment in time.
 

Dumb Sir

Banned deucer.
Reuniclus: B --> C+ Why is this so high in a meta with a ton of ghost and dark threats? I rarely see this and haven't been threatened by it all gen, its not worth using over the more offensive psychics, even Xatu brings more to a team. It's a poor wincon that most teams don't struggle with and should drop.
Despite the most common part of the offensive metagame being comprised of Dark and Ghost types, Reuniclus holds the valuable destinction of dunking on most defensive cores with arguably more consistancy than any other anti-meta threat like Rotom-C, Sigilyph, and even the mighty LO Clef. Even though LO Reuniclus relies on inaccurate moves for coverage for Steel Types Corviknight and Ferrothorn– Thunder and Focus Blast– Psychic alone strikes fear into the prominent defensive Pokémon of the meta including Kommo, Pex, Seis, the Faries, and Hippo. Reuniclus' high HP, Magic Guard, and access to Recover give it staying power that also lends itself to being one of the most annoying breakers for defensive teams to deal with. Its also worth mentioning the more defensive Reuniclus set of CM +Acid Armor/Coverage. Though it can still work in this meta, imo its just not worth it without pursuit. I wouldn't be against a Reuniclus drop, though B- seems more realistic.
 
I think Vaporeon could go as high as B-, though I understand that's pretty optimistic. I really do think it should be at least C+. It's definitely at least on par with Milotic and Jellicent and I see it A LOT more on the ladder than either of those. It scalds, absorbs water, and it passes wish which, yeah isn't a ton of different things, but they're all pretty decent. You can run haze or ice beam too, haze can save your ass sometimes. And because Vaporeon has a pretty fat ass you are getting wishes off pretty regularly and for a very big amount of healing.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
yall really are gonna seriously wait until duggy is S tier before banning it. truly ridiculous and absolutely embarassing. just admit you wanna use broken in tours bro i swear it's so easy.

anyway Id argue that toxpex should be b tier. it's usefulness as a late is pretty negligible considering that everyone and their mother is running answers to it and/or steel types. Thoughts?
 

ausma

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yall really are gonna seriously wait until duggy is S tier before banning it. truly ridiculous and absolutely embarassing. just admit you wanna use broken in tours bro i swear it's so easy.

anyway Id argue that toxpex should be b tier. it's usefulness as a late is pretty negligible considering that everyone and their mother is running answers to it and/or steel types. Thoughts?
B+ at the most, honestly. Despite being really passive and people running effective answers to it, its ability to soak hits, spread status, soak Tspikes, and act as a very efficient anti-sweep measure with Haze gives it a really strong, consistent defensive niche against physical sweepers (barring Excadrill). It's also very nice that it doesn't need to waste turns to Recover and can heal just by switching out unlike its other defensive competition, making it an effective glue on balance squads.

Though, admittedly, it does struggle against special sweepers and mons that run Substitute, especially Hydreigon. Its inability to dish out immediate damage effectively in a meta where damage counts does warrant it to be an A- Pokemon, in my opinion. Though, regardless, B is too much of an overstatement for what defensive utility it can provide.
 
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:reuniclus: I wanna drop in and defend Reuniclus for a second. Specifically the Double Dance set (Recover / Acid Armor / Calm Mind / Stored Power or Psyshock).

Okay so, I've used this thing quite extensively and while it is completely useless against any team with a Dark-type, it can and usually will absolutely clean house against almost any team without one. You'd think that the presence of Ghost-types in the tier is a big problem for it, but then you see shit like this:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reuniclus: 192-228 (45.2 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and yes, you want full SpD, in large part to tank those Shadow Balls. Reuni is boosting its Defense up by 2 stages so it's not like it's in dire need of extra physical defense.

It's possibly the most matchup-based mon in the tier (yes, even more than Dracovish somehow), but when it works it absolutely works. The crit vulnerability is an issue, but other than that it can very easily set up and win against teams that do not have an explicit answer to it. And unlike Dracovish, it also acts as a status absorber and a Clefable counter. And again, absolutely run full SpD, or close to full outside of specific phys def benchmarks I'm not aware of, being able to handle Clefable is far more valuable than whatever physical defense would try to achieve (checking Conk maybe? but Facade easily 2HKOes no matter what so w/e). Don't drop it, it's absolutely a legit threat and deserves to be in the B ranks.
 
Reuniclus: B --> C+ Why is this so high in a meta with a ton of ghost and dark threats? I rarely see this and haven't been threatened by it all gen, its not worth using over the more offensive psychics, even Xatu brings more to a team. It's a poor wincon that most teams don't struggle with and should drop.
Yeah this things a joke. Hat feels a lot better to me. Much more diverse movepool in terms of coverage, support, and status and a better ability at the cost of only slightly worse bulk (less hp better resists) and not having thunder.
 
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A+ > S
It is a bit controversial but Hydreigon has impacted the meta as one of the best. Its sheer power and unpredictability with its sets speaks volumes on it’s viability as one of if not the strongest offensive threat in the meta. Hydreigon has no true counters except for the two fairies, which are almost always required to have one of them on the team in order to keep it in check but can also be trapped by Duggy. It’s a good example of how impactful Hydrei really is and A+ is an understanding for it.

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B+ > B
It’s far from awful but as previously mentioned, it’s a necessity to have either Clef or Sylveon on the tier for Hydreigon and Pult. It’s too hard to fit Hatterene on a team over the two. Losing to Hydrei and Pult is not a good outlook in comaprison to it’s fellow fairies. Corvi and Aegislash being just as good as ever makes matters worse. It can still beat common hazard setters and hits like a truck, but alas, it has rough competition.

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B > B+
Bisharp is too low on the vr. Current trends have been kind to it. It loves the increase of HO and Ghost Spam which it can take advantage of without many issues. It also doesn’t mind Duggy too much cause Sucker Punch. It can end games more often with a decrease in Toad usage. Don’t sleep on it.

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B > B+
I changed my mind about Lucha since the last nom I made. Clef and Sylveon are running more SpD investment letting it OHKO them with BB. It takes advantage of bulkier teams and the increase of Kommo usage. It is able to OHKO a majority of the meta at +2. Also don’t sleep on Lucha.

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B > B+
Ghost Spam teams are rising and Lax could care less about them. It can setup on fat teams with relative ease. The meta has been infested with mostly special attackers which ofc Lax manages. It’s not a top tier due to the lack of a recovery, but it appreciates most current metagame trends and threats.

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C > C+
This thing’s only switch in rn is Pex which is trapped by Duggy. Scrappy Close Combat off of it’s absurd attack stat is nothing to sleep on. It can even 2HKO resists like Sylveon depending on the spread after rocks with CC. Having priority to Rkill Hydreigon and Goon is always valuable.

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C- > UR
Not sure why this is still ranked here. Trick Room is dead in the format, We have more reliable rockers that can beat Corvi like Iron Defense Kommo and LO Clef. Duggy is everywhere, Drill is probably a better choice for the role, and isn’t even that much of a Clef answer. Let it join Geist’s tea party in the Shadow Realm.
 
I used to agree with Hydreigon in S but I’d rather see Dragapult up there. Honestly I was a huge Dragapult hater but now we are seeing its versatility. Choice Specs is still a huge threat and it is a great glue on many teams. The DD Life Orb set is something I’ve been getting fucked up by too, destroying its usual checks like Mandibuzz and Clefable after a little prior damage and cooking up Ferrothorn with Fire Blast. The Hex and Choice Scarf sets are still decent, though not S-tier sets, but it still shows how it can use its great move pool with U-turn and Wisp to support the team in different ways. 40% usage and the fact it is still putting amazing results every game should be enough at this point to raise it.
 
View attachment 222340 A+ > S
It is a bit controversial but Hydreigon has impacted the meta as one of the best. Its sheer power and unpredictability with its sets speaks volumes on it’s viability as one of if not the strongest offensive threat in the meta. Hydreigon has no true counters except for the two fairies, which are almost always required to have one of them on the team in order to keep it in check but can also be trapped by Duggy. It’s a good example of how impactful Hydrei really is and A+ is an understanding for it.
SubNP with Flash Cannon can beat LO Clef alive if you sub on the switch.

+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 370-436 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO afte
+2 252+ SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 406-478 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Specs also wins if you predict the switchin, plus it can beat Sylveon and Togekiss.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 226-266 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
SubNP with Flash Cannon can beat LO Clef alive if you sub on the switch.

+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 370-436 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO afte
+2 252+ SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 406-478 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Specs also wins if you predict the switchin, plus it can beat Sylveon and Togekiss.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 226-266 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
NP LO is a much bigger threat in the meta rn(at least more common) also those calcs are wrong, Clefable never runs that little spdef on defensive, and never that much HP on LO.
also specs is pretty uncommon ;-;
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 395-465 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 341-403 (86.5 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
not even max spdef always lives
This is mainly the reason why sylveon has a niche over clefable; it's just that much beefier on the special side than Clefable. It only needs 56+ EVs in spdef to live +2 flash cannon after rocks
I agree w/ some of your points but overall not really. Also I think Hydreigon should be S-, but I'm a-ok w/ it staying in A+, it doesn't seem like Corv or Clef level.
 
I think Vaporeon could go as high as B-, though I understand that's pretty optimistic. I really do think it should be at least C+. It's definitely at least on par with Milotic and Jellicent and I see it A LOT more on the ladder than either of those. It scalds, absorbs water, and it passes wish which, yeah isn't a ton of different things, but they're all pretty decent. You can run haze or ice beam too, haze can save your ass sometimes. And because Vaporeon has a pretty fat ass you are getting wishes off pretty regularly and for a very big amount of healing.
I echoed a vaporeon nom up last slate and i will again. Vape is so damn fat and hard to kill. Mons like dragapult, non-np hydreigon, corviknight, aegislash, bisharp, all struggle to break thru it. Cloyster needs to flinch you twice to beat you, dugtrio doesn't successfully trap unless you're already in the range where dugtrio traps anything grounded (~40%), you switch into cinderace all day. Vape's wishes heal most mons back to full or very near full (and I'll say again that wish support is the most useful it's ever been off stall). Haze is great insurance against setup sweepers, and a powerful scald is a challenge for any team without a water-absorber of their own to switch into.

This mon is easily the most consistent pick in the all the C ranks and should be in the currently super-awkward B- rank.
 
I echoed a vaporeon nom up last slate and i will again. Vape is so damn fat and hard to kill. Mons like dragapult, non-np hydreigon, corviknight, aegislash, bisharp, all struggle to break thru it. Cloyster needs to flinch you twice to beat you, dugtrio doesn't successfully trap unless you're already in the range where dugtrio traps anything grounded (~40%), you switch into cinderace all day. Vape's wishes heal most mons back to full or very near full (and I'll say again that wish support is the most useful it's ever been off stall). Haze is great insurance against setup sweepers, and a powerful scald is a challenge for any team without a water-absorber of their own to switch into.

This mon is easily the most consistent pick in the all the C ranks and should be in the currently super-awkward B- rank.
Big agree on the point about wish. Because of the dexcut there are actually so few wish passers that aren't shitmon and in this pretty balance/BO heavy metagame its really nice to not instantly get blown out because you are disadvantaged matchup wise and take some hits while scouting em out. A lot of the good breakers in the metagame appreciate the support and dugtrio (sigh) can more find opportunities to switch in with the help of wish.
 
Big agree on the point about wish. Because of the dexcut there are actually so few wish passers that aren't shitmon and in this pretty balance/BO heavy metagame its really nice to not instantly get blown out because you are disadvantaged matchup wise and take some hits while scouting em out. A lot of the good breakers in the metagame appreciate the support and dugtrio (sigh) can more find opportunities to switch in with the help of wish.
It's not really that much of a big point given that Clefable, arguably the best mon, exists. Defensive Clef is becoming more and more appreciated for its wish-passing abilities, and therefore vaporeon is thrown into it's shadow.
 
It's not really that much of a big point given that Clefable, arguably the best mon, exists. Defensive Clef is becoming more and more appreciated for its wish-passing abilities, and therefore vaporeon is thrown into it's shadow.
I wasn’t referring to vaporeon, just wish itself being good in the meta. I agree with your statement. Clef and Sylveon are much better for the job.
 
It's not really that much of a big point given that Clefable, arguably the best mon, exists. Defensive Clef is becoming more and more appreciated for its wish-passing abilities, and therefore vaporeon is thrown into it's shadow.
Defensive clefable and vaporeon are very different mons. Just having wish doens't make clef an answer to vish or other mons i listed. Vaporeon is also far less passive because it threatens to burn and chip every non-immune switch in. Don't make comparisons just because there is 1 shared aspect in the mons.
 
Defensive clefable and vaporeon are very different mons. Just having wish doens't make clef an answer to vish or other mons i listed. Vaporeon is also far less passive because it threatens to burn and chip every non-immune switch in. Don't make comparisons just because there is 1 shared aspect in the mons.
Bruh, ok.
I was stating how it struggles to compete as a wish-passer due to Clefable existing. First off, Vaporeon is not less passive, it burns them and then what next? Clefable actually has a decent move in Moonblast plus much more utility w/ rocks, paralysis, and aromatherapy. It also has an incredibly offensive presence, with few good checks/counters. And I don't get the comparison part that you're trying to say, wdym, I'm just saying it's outclassed as a wish passer.
;-;
 

peng

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I’m not sure anyone can say that a defensive water type is outclassed by a defensive fairy given they beat a completely different set of mons, and therefore functionally wish-pass to different things too?

First and foremost, Vap is a defensive water that competes for a teamslot with Seismitoad, Gastrodon etc. The ability to WishPass is its niche over those mons. It shouldn’t really compete with Clefable directly when teambuilding, so its viability isn’t really tied to Clef for the most part.

By that logic, we should be bumping Mandibuzz down the rankings for not being as good a defogger as Corviknight.
 
I’m not sure anyone can say that a defensive water type is outclassed by a defensive fairy given they beat a completely different set of mons, and therefore functionally wish-pass to different things too?

First and foremost, Vap is a defensive water that competes for a teamslot with Seismitoad, Gastrodon etc. The ability to WishPass is its niche over those mons. It shouldn’t really compete with Clefable directly when teambuilding, so its viability isn’t really tied to Clef for the most part.

By that logic, we should be bumping Mandibuzz down the rankings for not being as good a defogger as Corviknight.
I disagree. Dark types are incredibly useful, especially dark types that can take a d-meteor from pult(which dreigon can't). It also possess better bulk, more utility options in the form of Knock Off and Toxic, and well as move such as Foul Play and providing a slow U-Turn.
It's one of the best Pult switchins, because it can comfortably take all of its attacks (bar Thunder), and also deals w/ physical attackers via Foul Play.
 

peng

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I disagree. Dark types are incredibly useful, especially dark types that can take a d-meteor from pult(which dreigon can't). It also possess better bulk, more utility options in the form of Knock Off and Toxic, and well as move such as Foul Play and providing a slow U-Turn.
It's one of the best Pult switchins, because it can comfortably take all of its attacks (bar Thunder), and also deals w/ physical attackers via Foul Play.
Exactly. You could make the exact same list for things that Vap can do that Clefable can’t, which precisely proves the point.

Vaporeon has a niche for the ability to role compress wish pass with bulky water, which means its pretty incomparable to clefable. You’ll almost never get into a teambuilding situation where you’ll think “i really need a bulky water but damn vap is so bad compared to clef, so I’ll forget the water and use clef”
 
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Umbreon C --> C-/UR: I haven't seen this used by a competent player on ladder, I can't find any tour usage for it and seriously doubt it has a niche, it lost toxic this gen and is a free switch in for like every fairy. It handles pult and gengar but is setup bait for far too much for this to be meaningful, notably hydra (that you'd expect this to beat as a dark resist).
Yawn prevents Umbreon from being setup bait for too much and it just synergises very well with Wish. Hydra can only set up on it if it doesn't switch into a Yawn and it has to be a Sub set too (which is getting slightly less common). Plus, dugtrio can trap a lot of things that can freely switch in, and when dugtrio is around, there's no such thing as a free switch in.

Like Mandibuzz, I don't think this thing is as good as it used to be maybe a month ago. I was heavily championing it during the early meta and throughout my reqs and it's definitely dropped a bit but still easily useful enough to be ranked. If dug gets banned, I could see it going lower but really it's not that bad at all.
 
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