Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [See post #321]

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Finchinator

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Dragapult is undisputedly S tier. Specs, Life Orb Physical Mix, SubHex, and Dragon Dance are all viable and makes it a guessing game to play against. It certainly has it's counters, but luckily you have 5 other pokes.
I mean for starters, only the Specs and SubHex sets see decent usage, but even if you factor in SubDD, which has some fringe viability, then you still have decent overlap in counterplay due to the fact that it is super reliant on Dragon Darts as Phantom Force can prove to be costly in a pinch. Regardless of this, your post does not really highlight any actual information about why these sets are threatening to the extent an S tier Pokemon would be. Nobody is debating Dragapult being good in the current metagame, but versatility can only be a selling point for moving to a tier as high as S if it is backed up by actual depth of viability and offensive potency. In Dragapult's case, a majority of the counterplay to the focal sets overlaps and can function as near-universal answers. On top of this, the lack of physical movepool, especially when compared to the special movepool, makes it way more limited than you claim it is. I am not necessarily opposing the nomination so much as I believe that if someone where to argue for this or any other significant change (i.e: something moving to S rank), then they are going to need a lot more substance than this. Finally, if "luckily you have 5 other pokes" is a focal part of any argument, then you should take a step back and rethink your focus to begin with.
 
While I normally don't post in things like this anymore and usually let the clowns fight each other, I personally feel like Tyranitar is either completely overvalued or the Pokemon its in A- with are completely undervalued. While I'm not sure exactly where I would put Tyranitar, comparing it to the other Pokemon within A-, its easily the least effective in practice (probably can make an argument for Ditto post-Dmax meta but whatever). Pursuit was a huge reason on why to use Tyranitar on a lot of teams and losing it kinda puts Tyranitar in a place where it is a jack of all trades, but really doesn't do anything exceptionally well. Yes it can run Stealth Rock and has access to other utility moves such as Thunder Wave, but unless its specifically for a team, what's stopping me from using Defensive Clefable with access to both of those moves and more such as Wish.

Looking at every other Pokemon within A-, they each have their individual role where they are really good at and merit usage over other Pokemon but I feel like Tyranitar is in a gray area. While by no means is Tyranitar a bad Pokemon, but with the state of the current meta I don't think Tyranitar is as good as it once was and should be moved down.

but hey im retarded and washed up so who cares.
 
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:togekiss: B+ => B-/C+
Right now, Togekiss barely carves a niche for itself. The lack of Max Airstream hurts it hard and while GDarm being banned only helps its case, it is still very mediocre. It isn't nearly strong enough, nor fast enough to make use of flinchax. It does have TWave, but what with Rotom-H, Rotom-W, and even Rotom-C gaining popularity, it's just slowly losing all of its viability.
 

G-Luke

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I would have to disagree with the nomination to move Cinderace down. I agree that Court Change may seem like a useless gimmick, but you have to keep in mind the pressure Cinderace applies just by showing up in Team Preview. If your primary strategy relies on screens or hazard stacking, you're either going to need to play very carefully or find a plan B. I acknowledge it's often underwhelming when it hits the field, but the pressure it applies from team Preview is rather consistent.
I mean, it cannot beat Seismitoad, and there isn't much stopping most Pokémon from setting SR again after it uses Court Change, making that move useless.
 
Heliolisk UR --> Ranked

heliolisk.gif


This thing is a really solid and underrated pick in the meta, with dry skin providing a water immunity to check vish, having a really good speed tier of 109, outspeeding a huge proportion of the meta, and being a reliable pivot. It also has great coverage, having grass knot for seismitoad (and the less relevant gastro/quag), while being able to break exca with focus blast/surf (pretty much better coverage V accuracy). I've personally been using LO, since the freedom of switching moves allows it to beat the grounds with less prediction, although specs is another very good option for it. This guy has a legit and valid niche that deserves to be shown on the VR.

Replay (will look for more/better ones) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1036338066
Edit: Better replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038548287
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040603367
And mostly for lols: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038553213

Thoughts on other shit:
Grimmsnarl is a cool, versatile mon that's useful both offensively and defensively as a nice dragapult answer thats not really passive, and can provide speed control via either prankster twave or sucker punch. I personally like 3 attacks sub on this, and would support a rise to B+.
Mew is really good, solid speed tier and obviously adaptable as hell, although less so with roost and fog gone from it. However, its offensive sets are much better bc most the better offensive threats are gone, is one of very few mons that can actually lure shit and its easily top 2 SR leads for offense now along with exca. I think this belongs in B along with antimeta picks like obstagoon rather than C+ with highly specific mons like flareon.
Rotom-H could probably drop now darms gone as theres a lot less reason to use it, although obviously its too early to make that call.

PS: Someone remind me to nom Appletun soon
 
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Dragapult should rise up to S tier. With the ban of G-Darm, one of it's most prominent counters, Pult viability should increase, since now it can run safely movesets, like the CSpecs one, or the SubDisable. Dragapult checks very common pokemon on the tier, depending on it's moveset. With Fire Blast, it can hit Ferro really hard, and can hurt a Toxapex, Corviknight and Mandibuzz in the switch with Thunderbolt. This thing checks so many prominent pokemon in the tier, depending ln which move uses, and also is very useful against Substitute shenanigans, thanks to infiltrator, countering the common Substitute + Nasty Plot Hydreigon. In conclusion, Pult viability should definitely increase with one of it's most common checks gone, it can counter most of the tier more safely than before, combining it's movepool, decent attacking stats, and a fantastic unboosted speed tier, which let it serve as a check to the great majority of the tier.
 

GMars

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I mean, it cannot beat Seismitoad, and there isn't much stopping most Pokémon from setting SR again after it uses Court Change, making that move useless.
Court Change is not useless just because opponents can reset hazards, you run teams that apply offensive pressure to take advantage of the swapped hazards and prevent the hazards from being set up again. Cinderace also can use Taunt to prevent hazards on its own if it really needs to, and Seis isn’t a hard mon to wear down due to its lackluster recovery.
 
I'm not sure how popular this opinion is, but I do think that there should be no S rank. With Galarian Darm, it made sense because that obviously was far above everything else. However, with that being gone, I don't think it makes sense to have an S rank. There are many great pokemon and huge threats in this meta, but I feel like nothing (including corviknight) stands above everything else. I don't even think corviknight, which is the sole mon in s tier right now, is the best mon in the tier, because I think clefable is. Speaking of which...

1577763063051.png
Clefable --> S tier

If there is an s tier and it doesn't get abolished, I do think that clefable belongs to be there. To me, clefable is the best mon in the whole meta. There is only one thing that really switches into this thing, and that's rotom heat, which is actually a pretty insane mon but when there's only one real counter to a mon that means it is pretty good. Nothing has really changed for this to be moved up, but I think it is just placed to low to begin with. It obviously shreds through balance, and even the offensive checks to this thing (gengar, cinderace, toxtricity etc) get 2HKO'd, which is absolutely insane. So, while I don't think there should be an S tier, if there is one I believe that clefable should be in it.

1577763333057.png
Rotom Heat --> Stay in A+ (Or maybe even move up to S but probably not)
So first off, anyone that says that this thing isn't very useful because darm is gone is straight up wrong. Rotom heat is, in my opinion, the second best pokemon in the meta. It is an incredible blanket check to most things in the meta obviously because of the incredible typing, and it's speed tier is a huge boon obviously because the meta is overall slower than it was in past generations. of course, the typing is incredible offensively, and the only thing that really switches into this typing (seismitoad) actually dies to +2 overheat after some chip, or at least gets greatly weakened which is huge. however, the thing that i think really puts this over the top is that the rest talk set is kind of insane. nasty plot is probably overall a better set, but the rest talk set makes rotom heat imo the best pivot in the entire tier. it can come in on some hugely threatening mons like aegislash, sand rush exca, clef (which as i discussed earlier is imo the best mon in the tier so the fact that this pokemon as a whole checks it is probably it's best aspect), mandibuzz, corviknight and many, many more is huge, because there is usually only one mon on the other team that can really deal with rotom effectively, so if it's not a ground type you can just volt switch out for momentum and if it is it's very predictable and easy to deal with. however, the best thing about the rest talk set is that it has great longevity, which means you don't have to use it sparingly. you can switch it into many threats many times, and keep it around for a long time. this means that it can check up to three or four mons on the other team because it doesn't have to worry to much about taking damage since it can just heal up. so, there is absolutely no reason for this to move down, and if anything i think it should actually move up because it continues to be one of the most versatile pivots and overall mons in the entire tier.



other things i support for reasons that were stated by other users:
aegislash --> A+
Snorlax --> B
Mamoswine --> B
 
:Sylveon:-> B+

Sylveon, in my humble opinion, is underrated here. Its special bulk combined with the fact that sound moves bypass Substitute is massive, meaning that SubHex Dragapult can't shut it down and Hydreigon can't stay in and set-up. Sylveon also is one of the better counters to LO Clef as Rotom-H can be worn down throughout the game, but can break shit and Flareon offers less defensive value, though it can burn stuff and spam FB. Centiskorch suffers from those issues as well, but can break Balance/Stall as well. Unfortunately, it does fuck all to Corviknight as Mystical Fire is quite weak though Yawn can force SubBU variants to switch. It has recovery in Wish+Protect and can afford to run Leftovers instead of HDB to keep it healthy while Snorlax has to Sleep for two turns. I honestly have no fucking idea why Lax doesn't get Slack Off.

The ability to pass wishes to teammates without recovery such as the omnipresent Toad is really nice, considering how much abuse it would need to take throughout a match. Ferrothorn also appreciates this as well. Even mons with recovery benefit from receiving a Wish.

However, what holds Sylveon back is its impotence against threats to bulkier builds, mainly Rotom-H and Corviknight, outside of Yawn and the lack of splashability since it only really fits on Balance and Stall.

:ss/sylveon:
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 40 SpA / 188 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Yawn

HP+Def ensure that uninvested Corv's BB and 8 Attack Hippo's Earthquake 3HKO, 40 Special Attack is to 2HKO offensive toad with HV

Some stuff I support:

Raise:
:Bisharp:-> A- (though wouldn't be mad about B+) great mon, certainly better that Dracozolt

:Clefable:-> S, better than the stuff in A+ imo

:Crawdaunt:-> Much higher (at least B-) This mon is flames

Lower:
:Cinderace:->B, CC is somewhat overrated, it will be in A once HA is released

:Ditto:->B- It the best set-up sweeper in the metagame uses Substitute, got hit the hardest from the D-max ban

:Milotic:&:Jellicent:-> Lower (C&C+?) Darm ban hurts these two as well. Milotic can take on Dragapult while Jellicent switches into fish, though not as well as toad or Vaporeon

:Rotom-Heat:-> A, Darm ban hurts it, though still really good

:Togekiss:-> Lower than my 5-HT levels, D-max ban sucks for it


First VR post :)
 
Hello, I will make some proposals to improve the thread, I hope you like it
1577765041504.png
B ---> A-
The reason for this is that, basically, Dragapult, Hydreigon and LO Clefable have further increased their use, all three are victims of Sylveon, here I will give my verdicts.
Dragapult: Sylveon is the best counter so far, it blocks its 3 sets and now that its use has increased, it is really valuable to have a Dragapult counter, since Clefable, for example, cannot transfer substitutes, Sylveon has a great niche just by that reason in my opinion

Hydreigon: Nothing to say, avoid 1hko of Flash Cannon +2 (with or without investment in SpDef), the truth is that I think it's obvious, Countea Sub NP and that's pretty good, it goes up more and more and I think Sylveon takes advantage Well of that, nothing more to say about Hydreigon.

Clefable: Actually, Clef is among the best mons, Sylveon is a very good counter, Mystical Fire + Hyper Voice manages to overwhelm Clefable, it is very important in the team today, probably this is one of the main reasons why I rise it.

Oh and I have something else to say, Throat Spray is a little explored set, but at least it can be useful in cases where you need an offensive pokemon that has those characteristics, but you want to try something more offensive, throat spray counts the same as its common set, but offensively, that's good, because it increases its versatility and probably a rise to A- is a good idea.




1577767539343.png
1577767551469.png
C+ ---> B+
I will have to talk one by one, but both are good
Flareon: The reason for its rise is the same as sylveon should go up, the pokemon that flareon threatens, are very common, it is a valuable counter of LO Clefable, since no attack by Clefable deals real damage and Flareon returns it with a 2hko of Flare Blitz. On top of that it is an excellent Rotom-C counter, since Flare Blitz is 1HKO to Rotom-C and the only way in which Rotom-C can win a 1v1, is that you hit Flareon after you put Nasty Plot, but not I think someone would do it if he knows how to predict, so Flareon is a very good Rotom-C counter, because no move without boost does real damage to Flareon, that's why I say I should go up to B+, not B or B-, because it damages many common things, it damages bisharp, enters vs Band Cinderace Pyro Ball, etc...

Vaporeon: The reason here is that its rank shows that it is a pokemon with a too limited niche and that it is generally outclassed by other pokemon that do the same and better, but Vaporeon is not that case, it has a fairly wide niche, since thanks to Water Absorb, it can be a good Dracovish counter. Besides it has Wishpass and Haze, which makes it different from Seismitoad, it is a little explored pokemon, but it gives excellent utility, B+ is its ideal rank


1577769748424.png
A- ---> B+
Since the dynamax and gigantamax left, Ditto got much worse, since he took advantage of that and very well (I considered Ditto even possible ban, before galar darm even), but since the dmax left, it was certainly a Mon who lost a lot, it is my reason to lower it, but only to B+, because there are many boosters and you probably want to overcome it and do revenge kill with ditto, but it is no longer the same.

1577769988396.png
C ---> B-
In general the reason why I rise it, is because it really is a very good wall that manages to stop many common threats, Gengar, Hydreigon (Mainly), Polteagist, etc ... this means that it can be a very good anti metagame threat , so it can be good in certain teams precisely thanks to this and in terms of its niche about Mandibuzz, because it is not weak to rotom heat, rotom wash, etc ... very beneficial thing, since rotomies are very common , I understand that it is weak to Kommo-O, but it is a small niche, it also has a very beneficial wishpass for certain teams, so I rise it to B-, because it can be really good, but it is a bit outclassed by some pokemon.

Other Nom:
1577770662251.png
A+ ---> S
It is the best mon of the metagame, it is very versatile with LO, Wishpass, etc ... It is really good since although it has many offensive threats, you can still deal with them, versatility can help you, because it is very unpredictable, you have to read the rival very well to know what set it is, I really love this mon thanks to all this, must be S (and a possible S+ the truth)

I hope you like my verdicts
 
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Heliolisk UR --> Ranked

View attachment 215642

This thing is a really solid and underrated pick in the meta, with dry skin providing a water immunity to check vish, having a really good speed tier of 109, outspeeding a huge proportion of the meta, and being a reliable pivot. It also has great coverage, having grass knot for seismitoad (and the less relevant gastro/quag), while being able to break exca with focus blast/surf (pretty much better coverage V accuracy). This guy has a legit and valid niche that deserves to be shown on the VR.

Replay (will look for more/better ones) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1036338066

Thoughts on other shit:
Grimmsnarl is a cool, versatile mon that's useful both offensively and defensively as a nice dragapult answer thats not really passive, and can provide speed control via either prankster twave or sucker punch. I personally like 3 attacks sub on this, and would support a rise to B+.
Mew is really good, solid speed tier and obviously adaptable as hell, although less so with roost and fog gone from it. However, its offensive sets are much better bc most the better offensive threats are gone, is one of very few mons that can actually lure shit and its easily top 2 SR leads for offense now along with exca. I think this belongs in B along with antimeta picks like obstagoon rather than C+ with highly specific mons like flareon.
Rotom-H could probably drop now darms gone as theres a lot less reason to use it, although obviously its too early to make that call.

PS: Someone remind me to nom Appletun soon
Your replay of heliolisk is very biased because the team you showcased it against had no ground type to stop it mindlessly clicking volt switch. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve a rank but I thought this needed to be called out.
 
to A+
This guy is an absolute monster this game. Besides being the best rocker for offensive oriented teams, Rapid Spin's buff also turns Excadrill into the nightmarishly fast hard-hitting mole that he is in the sand by just doing his job as a Spinner. He's able to switch into 2/3 of LO Clef's attacks and force her with a situation where she either stays in and dies to Iron Head or switch out to a wall and watches in horror as Excadrill sets up a Swords Dance and proceeds to devastate things with Ground/Iron STAB off of a base 135 attack stat with possible Rapid Spin speed boosts. Not even Corviknight, the most popular answer for Excadrill, wants to be eating +2 Iron Heads that have the possibility to also flinch him. If Drill calls the roost, he can simply boost up with Swords Dance and muscle his way through Corvi if push comes to shove. Oh yeah, Sand Rush Excadrill is still as strong as ever and is still cemented one of the tried and true sweepers of OU. Despite all these strengths, there's quite a few speedbumps in OU that can put a halt to the mole's shenanigans. Galar Corsola, Corviknight, Dugtrio, Mimikyu and strong priority from the likes of Conkeldurr and Crawdaunt are the ones off the top of my head. Switching in on the ubiquitous Toxapex to melt it with Earthquake also proves risky, as the last thing Drill wants is to be burned by a SE Scald. Overall, this mon's a menace that's kept in check before he can set up Swords Dance by a few things, and that's what keeps him from S tier. Absolutely deserving of A+ though no doubt

to A+
This is a really hot take, but hear me out. This guy is hands down the most underrated threat right now, there's no "real" answers to this thing aside from Conkeldurr and maybe Mimikyu. There's absolutely ways to play around the potential switchin on a Defog or Sticky Web, but the entire pace of the game is completely thrown out of sorts if he does get that Defiant boost. +2 Bisharp makes the entire game about him and only him until he is either gone, forced to switch out, or you lose. After Dexit happened, this meta is honestly very ill equipped to deal with a mon that can get +2 attack just for switching in, Dark/Steel STAB, Swords Dance to boost his attack even further, and a comically strong priority STAB move. Even if you do manage to get rid of Bisharp once it gets its boost(s), chances are it left a gaping hole in your team before going out in a blaze of glory. What prevents it from being S tier is it being rather prediction-heavy, needing that +2 before doing any serious damage, and a couple of mons that can tank a Sucker Punch or Throat Chop and revenge kill it. But when he does get that boost, there will be hell to pay.

1577770662251.png
to S
Everything said about this mon has already been said. LO Clef on its own is a threat that forces the entire meta to respect it, and this isn't even getting into that obnoxious WishPass set that's been picking up steam
 
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I just wanted to defend Rotom-H for A+. I had a feeling that people were going to start nomming it down, but saying that it should drop just because Darm got banned completely ignores why it's so good in the first place. I think people heavily underrate just how much utility this Pokemon can give to teams and I really feel like it's one of those Pokemon that needs to be played a certain way to get the most out of it. I hate to quote one of my older posts but I feel like I explain my reasoning pretty well.
Agree on maintaining Rotom-H for A+.

- gaining Nasty Plot is arguably the most helpful to Heat Rotom than any other Rotom forms, and its ability to setup on Clefable is dangerous. Compared to other NP setup sweepers like Hydreigon/Togekiss/Gengar, being immune to paralysis is also a huge advantage.
- giving it Choice Specs could turn it into a great wallbreaker which can OHKO Corviknight and Toxapex, and hit over half damage on uninvested Hydreigon/Dragapult switch-ins.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Heat Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 163-192 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 327-385 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 141-167 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 144-171 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
- access to Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp also makes possible counters reluctant to switch in to it, namely Dragapult/Hydreigon/Kommo-o(paralysis) and Tyranitar/Dracozolt(burn).
- defensively, Fire/Electric typing + Levitate is also actually better than people expect, due to the abundance of Steel-type attacks from examples like Bisharp/Aegislash/Excadrill, which makes it a perfect Wish receiver from Sylveon/Clefable, and has many chances to scout with VS.
- scarf Rotom-H also act as a revenge killer against stuff like SD Excadrill, Gyarados, Obstagoon, Gengar, etc.
- ChestoRest is viable to some extent as it can further improve its survivability in addition to new Boots, which intensify the threat of Nasty Plot sets.

The only reason it shouldn’t be in S-rank is because of its Stealth Rock weakness really. And Dracovish.
 
Your replay of heliolisk is very biased because the team you showcased it against had no ground type to stop it mindlessly clicking volt switch. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve a rank but I thought this needed to be called out.
I did detail in my post that the replay wasn't exactly good, both me and the opp made questionable plays and I would try to get better ones once I had time, so I'm not exactly why you're calling out a replay I wasn't claiming to be good and only had there as a formality while I got better ones. I also detailed how Helio breaks through the grounds that try to volt block via grass knot and focus/surf, and here's an example of this where it does its job easily V seismitoad balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038548287

Again, some bad plays on both sides but it comes in on and pivots on the corvik, and later removes the seis here for dracovish to finish off, clearly demonstrating heliolisk's capabilities.
 
This VR is really really good Finch and I can tell that you and your team have worked super hard on this. But I wanna share my thoughts on what I think should change.

For starters, I personally think Conkeldurr is worthy of being in A. Conkeldurr is an amazing breaker that dismantles common balance teams quite easily as they usually don't have good switch ins and it serves as a very nice check to Toad and Ferrothorn. Conkeldurr cripples almost everything that's gonna try and answer it and things like Sylveon/Clefable aren't even consistent answers as they are outsped and 2ko'd by the Facade set. Conkeldurr being one of the few breakers that has priority which helps so much in dealing with things such as Corviknight as Corviknight gets crippled and brought into Mach Punch range after just one Tpunch. Conk is definitely not without flaws though, being worn down by Flame Orb is a pain and it usually requires Wish support from Sylveon/Clefable to really shine on top of being slow which means it's being forced out after getting a kill/crippling something. However I feel like Conkeldurr's niche as a extremely reliable balance breaker with priority push it to the bottom or A.

A->A

Hydreigon
is also a Pokemon I think deserves to be higher. Hydreigon is such a versatile Pokemon in this meta, being able to serve as the best breaker in the tier or the fastest scarfer in the tier. Despite being able to get chipped heavily, it has such little defensive play that it barely matters and the scarf set generates a lot of momentum. It's quite splashable, fitting in on almost every balance/BO team. A>A+ for sure, arguably S (tho I disagree on this personally)

A>A+/S


Rotom-Mow
is another Pokemon that has been gaining a lot of attention recently, being able to check Corvi,Mandi,Toad and Pex all in one mon is great and being able to push advantage on top of this makes this thing well worth it in my eyes. It's just great at breaking balance with the Nasty Plot set and serving as a blanket check to some of the best mons is always great, Darm being banned also helped this thing out so much as there is no longer a need to always run Rotom-Heat to serve as your Darm check. Tldr good blanket check+good breaker+gaining momentum = good and certainly better than B+, A- in my personal opinion although you can make an argument for A as well but it's a little bit of a stretch.


B+>A-/A


Mamoswine
is also an underrated threat in the meta right now. Being able to set up rocks while also having having great stabs and pretty limited switch-ins is really really good. Mamoswine is also one of the few rockers that is able to keep the rocks up against common defoggers like Mandibuzz and Spdef Corviknight. Mamoswine is also able to revenge kill things such as Hydreigon,Rotom-Mow and Kommo-O thanks to it's priority as well. TLDR Mamoswine is a great offensive rocker which has good STABS and priority and with the main Ice-Type leaving, Mamoswine will fill in with a great niche. B->B+ imo.

B->B+
 
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Zneon

formerly f is for frens
Aight first nom of the day let's go

A->A+ = First will be Aegislash and I do believe this mon is worthy of A+, incredibly versatile that has a way to bypass its checks with shit like Specs and Band, amazing typing lets it switch into a lot more things than you think, and honestly this Pokemon has very few switch ins, and it can be a hard hitting spinblocker. This Pokemon is overall great and gives so much in one slot that is it hard to justify leaving it in A.


A+-> S = Dragapult is potentially the best Pokemon in the tier though has competition with Corv and Clef for the best. Probably the most versatile Pokemon in the tier as it can utilise Specs, Physical DD, Mixed DD, SubDisable etc, this Pokemon is very splashable, fitting onto many HO, Balance or BO teams and can be either be a dangerous threat to many teams with Specs and Physical DD, or it can disrupt with SubDisable by crippling mons. It is the fastest Pokemon in the tier unboosted and can usually always be threatening no matter what team you're playing against due to its extreme versatility. Fantastic mon and its rank should be a testament to that.

B- -> C- = This mon basically loses its main niche after Darm got banned, as a bulky water it is completely outclassed by Toxapex, Gastrodon or Seismitoad, which have more support and utility such as walling Dracovish out or just setting up Tspikes or spreading poison. It is hard to justify using it at this point.
 
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Sure I'll give this a go.

:sylveon: B --> B+/A-
Sylveon is one of the game's premier support mons right now, and is practically a necessity on bulky offense teams. Wish support is extremely good with some of the game's best defensive checks in seismitoad and heattom both lacking their own recovery. Sylveon has good defensive synergy with these two thanks to its crazy high special bulk and ability to easily handle hydreigon and kommo-o, and unlike support Clefable it actually has solid offensive presence even when uninvested. While it does face competition for wish passing on defense oriented teams, it is hands down the best wish user for any remotely offensive team and is probably the best support mon overall for those teams.

:bisharp: B --> B+
A number of people have pointed this out already but bisharp is stupidly hard to stop if it gets a boost. It laughs off corviknight, toxapex, ferrothorn, seismitoad (especially ones lacking ground STAB) and others with its ludicrous power and priority. It genuinely only fears conk, lucha and hydreigon, and if you don't pack one of these and bisharp switches in on a defog you basically lose instantly. It's true that bisharp doesn't fit as neatly on balance teams as it does on heavily offensive ones, which does hold it back a bit in this meta, but it's got amazing role compression as hazard insurance, priority abuser, wallbreaker and sweeper all in one and I think offense teams can scarcely afford to drop it.

That's all I've got for now.
 
One things i want to say about bisharp is that it can't really switch into defog corviknight because of body press (which is imo a better move than u-turn on this set). It's still a very good mon and i think it deserve to be higher but A+ seems a way too high since corviknight (The best defogeur in the tier) can easily run a move to constantly beat i and defiant being his main asset
 
Aight gonna take a crack at this.

Sylveon: B to A-

Most people already seemed to have beat me to a punch with sylveon to A- but i completely agree with sylveon rising up to it. This things capable of switching safely into hydra,pult and clef in one slot making it very handy for balance and Stall teams. It also provides wish support which is great. probably one of the better defensive fairy types out there in the current meta.

Kommo-O: B+ to A-

This might be kinda a stretch but recently i'd say kommo-o is certainly deserving of a rise. While i personally think all of its offensive set-up sets are mostly outclassed by Hydra, Kommo-o has something going for it that hydra cant do and thats that it can pull off both defensive and offensive rocks sets. While i might be too excited about mow-tom here i think that if this things gaining tons of popularity and usage Kommo-o shines as being a rocker that isnt forced out or threatened by it(you also switch into heat-tom and wash-tom). That being said Kommo's defensive rocks set is capable of checking the obvious sylveon and Toxtricity but can also check bisharp and tyranitar thanks to being a fighting type and having sky high defensive. It also gets nice utility in Taunt which means it can deny corviknight a defog temporarily which is somthing not many rockers can really do. As for offensive sets kommo-o is capable of becoming a rocker that can cause offensive pressure.

Just 2 small calcs:
252+ SpA Kommo-o Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 146-172 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 184-217 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

Basically Special rocks sets are capable of annoying corviknight while Physical rocks sets can threaten corviknight with a 2hko. Of course corviknight isnt the only thing offensive rocks sets threaten as it can deny clefable and hatterene switch-ins if its using a offensive set. Overall while not as potent as Rocks Lorb clef and Seismitoad Kommo-o is a really good rocker right now.

Rotom-Mow: B+ to A-

This things obscenely good right now. While not as good as rotom-heat, rotom-mow is incredibly useful in the current meta being able to completely dismantle corviknight+bulky water cores which are extremely useful backbones for teams right now. Not much really likes switching into grass+electric coverage which makes a offensive nasty plot set very potent. Not much more to say here, just a really strong mon in the meta. I think darm being banned really helped its case and it can really shine now.
 

Yung Dramps

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B- ---> Shadow Realm
Some don't want to unrank it outright, instead opting for a drop to C-. All I can say is: Why? Even these noms admit it is totally outclassed by Toxapex now that it can't wall Darmanitan while simultaneously failing to provide even theoretical niches that could warrant a placement with so many other great Water types around. Truth be told I'm not even entirely opposed to keeping it ranked, but again, until I see someone explain to this forum what Milotic does that Toxapex or even Pyukumuku and Quagsire don't as a bulky Water trying to keep it in the VR by even a thread feels very wishy-washy.

1577820644207.png

B+ ---> A-
Kommo-o at B+ post-Darmanitan is an insult. Everyone has gone in-depth about how lethal the set-up sets are, but I wanna highlight an awesome set I've been using: Specially Defensive Rocker.

Kommo-o (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch

Yeah it's total Fairy food, but who cares? It laughs in the face of Rotom-Heat, Excadrill, Ferrothorn and more. Bulletproof is an amazing ability that can do shit like force Specs Dragapult into incredibly awkward 50/50s if paired up with another Fairy type. There is almost nothing Kommo-o can't do, and I am certain that there is more for it just waiting to be discovered.

Popular noms I support: Mamoswine raise, Ditto drop, Dragapult and Clefable to S
 

Jordy

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I really don't think that any of the current Milotic nominations are being fair. Yes, reliably checking Galarian Darmanitan was a part of Milotic's niche, but that is not the only thing it does. Milotic is by far and away the best Choice Specs Aegislash check, it can easily be EVd to survive 2 Choice Specs-boosted Shadow Balls from Aegislash. Toxapex may have access to Regenerator, still making it a generally decent pivot against Choice Specs Aegislash, but it does not outright beat Choice Specs Aegislash because Toxapex has a far harder time running specially defensive spreads right now. To add onto that, Milotic is one of the few defensive Water-types that isn't taken advantage of by Hydreigon and Dragapult, which certainly does count for a lot in this metagame.

I can definitely understand dropping Milotic to C+, but dropping it to C- or unranking it altogether is simply ridiculous.
 
(responding to nominations for Dragapult to S) - I really don't think Dragapult belongs in S tier. Yes, it has several viable sets (although if we're being real there are 2, maybe 3 sets that are common if you include the Dragon Dance set) - and those sets (at least specs and SubDisable) are good at their jobs. But none of those sets are particularly overpowering. The argument that the mon should be S tier based on it's versatility in spite of the fact that none of it's sets are S tier quality on their own just doesn't jibe to me. Sure, Dragapult is common in the meta and has a couple of strong sets but it doesn't really live up to the hype as a dominant force in the meta. Instead it strikes me as a mon similar to Ash-Greninja, which floated around A for most of the last generation and was nominated for S at times but ended up at A at the end of the gen.

As an additional note, not to get bogged down in teiring philosophy, but I really believe that the S tier should be reserved for particularly powerful, borderline overpowering, and omnipresent meta forces. I really don't think there is a mon that fits that description right now. I would agree with paoisd that there doesn't seem to be a clear frontrunner worthy of an S rank right now.
 

Rabia

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:bisharp: :obstagoon: -> B+
bisharp and obstagoon both benefit from the general trends of teams lacking great answers to them; i think the post trying to fling bisharp to a+ is really out of line because defensive counterplay very much exists (body press corvi, hippo, conk, kommo-o, rotom formes can burn it, etc), but i think both of these are slightly underappreciated.

drops
:dracovish: -> B+/A-
probably the second most overrated mon on the VR right now; literally every team is overprepared for it because of how centralizing it is. physdef ferro/pex, seis, gastro, and faster mons like dragapult and draco hydrei existing make it a lot less effective than it originally was. I know people have a hate boner for it because "fishious rend op!!! :(" but it's so far below where it used to be. still really good and can get by in these matchups but imo not where it was.

:cinderace: -> B
ive never been high on cinderace and think court change is mostly a bad gimmick. i think cinderace's utility through uturn and court change (and other niche options like taunt/super fang) are mostly outweighed by it providing very little otherwise in a game. its not particularly strong even with cb and is really exploitable by common mons like toad, heattom, pult (if not cb sucker punch), and more.

:ditto: -> C+
hyper offense and stall are both pretty bad rn and with dmax being banned alongside that ditto has lost a lot of its niche. it ofc still has a niche on fatter builds and will always be valuable in scouting sets, but the main reasons to run it aren't present currently

:flygon: -> UR
i was told it runs choice scarf. it was bad. like, i dont really see what youre supposed to be doing outside of clicking uturn and bringing in something against the huuuuge amount of stops to this mon. pult feels superior in this role entirely and has the natural speed to avoid running scarf to make up for its lacking damage output, which flygon cant really. this feels like the definition of "sure you can use it but why would you cwl"

mostly agree with other noms like milo drop (to C+), sylveon rise, also definitely wanna see more talk about Tyranitar because I've been incredibly let down with it this gen. no pursuit actually feels pretty huge for it, dd is kinda lackluster; only set i've had some success with has been rocks. cb is probably fine, but :blobshrug:
 
UR -> C+

Arcanine is similar to Flareon since its main purpose is to counter LO clef so there's no real reason for this mon to be unranked. Both have nearly the same Special bulk and both have a healing move which allows them the hard counter clef. The main thing that Flareon can do over Arcanine is wish pass, but thats not very useful compared to the benefits of Arcanine.

Arcanine has a much bigger movepool which can stop certain pokemon from switching in. Even though Flareon does have will o wisp it can be forced to protect sometimes because of wish while Arcanine has wisp and alot more moves.
  • Play rough can be used to stop dragons from switching in (Dracovish/Zolt)
  • Crunch is useful against ghosts, Flareon has no way of actually damaging something like Dragapult if it doesn't land a wisp on switch
  • Extreme Speed, A great way of cleaning up late game compared to Flareons quick attack (Helps with dugtrio)
  • Wild Charge which can scare bulkier waters and make it so that Arcanine isnt useless against rain
  • CC which is more reliable than Flareon using superpower
  • It also gets pyschic fangs and iron head if you want but there isnt really a reason to use them unless you're avoiding recoil from flare blitz
Another benefit to Arcanine is obviously his ability. He has superior speed and physical bulk compared to flareon with intimidate. He can outspeed ttar, crawdaunt, and others if they invest into speed while Flareon is usually moving second. Intimidate is always useful so Arcanine is still useful when the opponent doesn't have clef, It switches better into mimikyu, corviknight, grimmsnarl, and pretty much all the physical attackers in this tier

Essentially Arcanine is a more unpredictable Flareon which is more useful pretty much all the time since it has much better stats and a larger movepool, most Flareons will just have some variation of protect/wish/flare blitz/wisp.
Wish passing isn't as useful as all the benefits of Arcanine.

Edit: Replays
Note: These are all from a tour in the ou room which allowed zen mode darm
Replay 1 - Scares out hydreigon / deals with rotom heat
Replay 2 - Uses espeed to kill set up sweeper / would have walled rotom heat late game
Replay 3 - Kills kommo-o / brings aegislash down to 5% / espeed to stop prankster screens

Flareon wouldn't have done most of that stuff and as I said before both deal with LO Clef equally, theres no reason Flareon should be ranked higher than Arcanine
 
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