Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [See post #321]

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UR -> C+

Arcanine is similar to Flareon since its main purpose is to counter LO clef so there's no real reason for this mon to be unranked. Both have nearly the same Special bulk and both have a healing move which allows them the hard counter clef. The main thing that Flareon can do over Arcanine is wish pass, but thats not very useful compared to the benefits of Arcanine.

Arcanine has a much bigger movepool which can stop certain pokemon from switching in. Even though Flareon does have will o wisp it can be forced to protect sometimes because of wish while Arcanine has wisp and alot more moves.
  • Play rough can be used to stop dragons from switching in (Dracovish/Zolt)
  • Crunch is useful against ghosts, Flareon has no way of actually damaging something like Dragapult if it doesn't land a wisp on switch
  • Extreme Speed, A great way of cleaning up late game compared to Flareons quick attack (Helps with dugtrio)
  • Wild Charge which can scare bulkier waters and make it so that Arcanine isnt useless against rain
  • CC which is more reliable than Flareon using superpower
  • It also gets pyschic fangs and iron head if you want but there isnt really a reason to use them unless you're avoiding recoil from flare blitz
Another benefit to Arcanine is obviously his ability. He has superior speed and physical bulk compared to flareon with intimidate. He can outspeed ttar, crawdaunt, and others if they invest into speed while Flareon is usually moving second. Intimidate is always useful so Arcanine is still useful when the opponent doesn't have clef, It switches better into mimikyu, corviknight, grimmsnarl, and pretty much all the physical attackers in this tier

Essentially Arcanine is a more unpredictable Flareon which is more useful pretty much all the time since it has much better stats and a larger movepool, most Flareons will just have some variation of protect/wish/flare blitz/wisp.
Wish passing isn't as useful as all the benefits of Arcanine.

My issue with this is that if arcanines main niche is to check all these mons you listed its essentially unable to run anything outside of Wisp/morning sun/Fire stab/Filler. I remember doing calcs on arcanine a while back and this things really weak especially a unstabbed uninvested extremespeed. I remember seeing this thing maybe once and it was super underwhelming. I wouldent really call this thing unpredictable because i think realistically its only capable of running one set similar to flareon lol. Any offensive set is probably going to be outperformed by any other breaker in the tier.(rotom-h included). That being said isnt rotom-H technically going to be better in most situations? It gets nasty plot meaning even on defensive sets its capable of threatening clefable which i think if anything arc just forces clefable out. It just seems like a poor mans Rotom-H with better recovery then rotom-h. If were talking defensive fire types Arcanine is somthing i wouldent recommend anyone to use over rotom-h or even centiskorch.

Just feels like a underwhelming mon that can check hat/clef and spread burns (based on what you said) but thats somthing other pokemon in the tier can do. Sure its got coverage options but its completely unable to make use of most of them realistically.
 
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to B or B-

I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but Dugtrio cannot switch into nearly anything between the S to B- tiers. Nearly everything can switch out (Flying / Ghost types, Levitate) or do not take significant damage from Dugtrio. I rarely even see this thing on the ladder, and was kind of surprised to see it so high.

1577828004503.png
to B or B-

Flareon can safely check: Corviknight, Clefable, Dragapult, Rotom-Heat, and Ferrothorn. Flare Blitz, Wish, Yawn, Protect w/ Heavy-Duty Boots can be incredibly annoying to deal with even if it has a bad match-up.

1577828322657.png
to B or B-

Almost nothing can switch into its Swords Dance set with: Crabhammer / Liquidation, Aqua Jet, and Knock Off. Yes, it can be hard to switch in normally, but with Corviknight and Rotom-Heat can VoltTurn it in pretty easily.

1577828518969.png
to A-

With the best Choice Scarf user being banned, the floodgates have been opened for other slower mons to try and outspeed Dragapult. Togekiss can spam Air Slash, and learns plenty of other great moves that can beat nearly every top tier mon. The only major counter is Rotom-Heat, but you could run Ancientpower in the last move slot if you really wanted to. Choice Specs, Nasty Plot, and Tailwind could be some other sets to use as well.
 
Comparing Arcanine to Flareon is weird cause Flareon performs it's specific niche better than Arcanine. Its Flare Blitz hits harder, wish support helps the whole team, etc. Technically, yes, in a vacuum, Arcanine is a more versatile Pokemon, but in the context of OU, it can't really do anything that other mons don't do better.
 

Estronic

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It's time :v4:
Rises:
--> S
I honestly see Dragapult as the "Landorus-T" of SS OU, as in it's pretty easy to fit on any team while still providing a lot to it with its good amount of useful sets. Choice Specs provides amazing coverage and can easily weaken and dismantle a team when played right, Substitute + Disable is surprisingly good at shutting down Pokemon and allowing for its teammates to come in, and Dragon Dance, while unorthodox, can catch the opponent off guard and thus KO Pokemon that would've checked it had it been Choice Specs. Sure, its Special Attack may not be excelling and its physical movepool may be shallow, but it's proven to be a very versatile Pokemon that can really put a lot of pressure on the opponent.

--> A+
Nearly the same deal as Dragapult. Aegislash may not be as versatile as it used to be without Toxic and its nerfs to its stats and King's Shield, but it still hits like a truck with its offensive sets, Choice Specs especially. Playing around with Stance Change practically give it excelling defensive and offensive stats in one turn, tanking hit and retaliating hard. Honestly, though, it potentially could be S had it not been nerfed, but I can definitely see it as A+ now.

Drops:
--> A-
Basically echoing what Rabia said: Dracovish is pretty overrated right now. Pretty much every team is running something of the sort to keep this Pokemon in check, and the fact that literally all of its attacks hit like a wet noodle (besides Fishous Rend, of course), leads it to be pretty one-dimensional and easy to play around. The fact that Dracovish can force teams to run something for its one move, however, seals it as a viable Pokemon in OU, just not as viable as you may think.

--> B+ / B
Without Dynamax, Ditto doesn't really seem that threatening anymore. Sure, it can still fill its role as a revenge killer effectively, but without taking advantage of crazy boosts, it's hard for it to do much when it comes in if the opponent plays around it. It obviously still can take advantage of the foe's stat boosts, but there's not that much action like that going around right now, with most Pokemon seemingly opting for immediate power.

--> B / B-
Togekiss was almost only viable due to how amazing it was with Dynamax, but it can't really get that much momentum now without it, especially considering the lack of Speed boosts via Max Airstream. My suggestion for its new placement arguably is pretty generous, since I feel like it's downhill for it once people realize its spark is gone.

--> C+
Tanking hits from Galarian Darmanitan was its main niche, but Milotic definitely isn't unranked material. Reliably tanking hits from Choice Specs Aegislash is a big part in its viability, and it bulk in general helps it face a good handful of Pokemon like Dragapult, Hydreigon, and Choice Scarf Dracovish. I agree it's less viable now, but definitely not as much as people are suggesting.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. This list is honestly pretty accurate in my eyes, though I can't really comment too much on most of the Pokemon C+ and below. I would like to comment on one, though:

The hype for the fellow spooky coral died down fairly quickly. It's pretty hard to justify using it when the metagame is infested with Mandibuzz spamming Knock Off, especially in a metagame without non-removable items, and just in general the amount of Dark-types in the metagame as well as Dragapult somewhat never really allowing it to fulfill its niche. In the event it finds an opening, however, Galarian Corsola does have a lot of good utility, specifically the combination of Will-O-Wisp and Strength being annoying to most physical attackers. I don't really see it dropping with how useful it can potentially be, but as long as those Pokemon I referred to above stay relevant, it's not moving up either. C+ seems to be a cozy spot for it.
 
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Srn

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It's completely fucking goofy that durant is C-, this man is an unholy demon
Let's lay out the set first

Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Iron Head
- Thunder Fang / Crunch
- Superpower

Ik you're looking at that adamant nature and scratching ur 3rd chin, but almost everything in between 348 (252+ speed) and 303 (just creep exca) is something you're gonna click first impression vs anyway, only hawlucha you'd like to thunder fang and mimikyu you'd like to iron head, and neither of these ohko you. 48 hp evs gets you to 269 hp, a good LO number, and rest into defense so we get those juicy kills with max ada LO.

Defensive seismitoad dies to First impression+Superpower, any mandibuzz is dead, corviknight and toxapex are 2hko'd by thunder fang.
First impression can kill dracovish+hatterene after rocks, aegislash is ohko'd by crunch, cinderace is ohkod by superpower.
Ultimately, you're gonna 2hko almost everything that isnt max phys def hippo or corsola-g

252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 242-285 (58.4 - 68.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 213-252 (51.4 - 60.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mandibuzz: 265-313 (62.5 - 73.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 76+ Def Corviknight: 218-257 (54.5 - 64.2%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 278-329 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hatterene: 290-343 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Can RK TR variants, Iron head kills calm mind
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 313-369 (103.9 - 122.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 250-294 (122.5 - 144.1%)


I will admit that the departure of Gdarm makes durant worse, as durant was one of the few mons able to viably RK scarf gdarm on offense teams, meaning you didn't need guts conk mach or some other shitty scarfer. No Dmax also makes durant worse, as max moves didn't miss but still benefited from hustle. Regardless, durant is still a high risk high reward speed control and wallbreaker all in one that does not get enough attention. It's also worth pointing out that first impression has +2 priority, so it will go before sucker punch, mach punch, prankster reflect/t-wave, etc

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1032258981
This is an old replay, but it gets the message across. First 3 turns is all u need to watch.

So lets be real: you're using hustle. Will you miss? Absolutely. Will you lose because of these misses? Absolutely. But we routinely use moves like hydro pump, focus blast, stone edge, and high jump kick bc we want the power, and power is exactly what durant has. Hustle is no reason to shy away.
As a wise man once said: STUNT OR DIE

Durant C- --> B
 
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Mubs

Formerly Pokesartoolcay
is a Pre-Contributor
:ss/pelipper: B- -> B

:ss/barraskewda: C+ -> B-

Rain has shown itself, again, to be a very viable offensive subarchytype, especially now with the ban of Darmanitan-G allowing for more longevity in the primary rain setter, Pelipper. Barraskweda, along with other weather abusers such as Dracovish and a few Seismitoad sets are the reason why pokemon such as Jellicent and the aforementioned Seismitoad are almost necessitated on playstyles such as stall and slower balance builds, which is why I feel that rains only setter and one of its primary abusers should rise.


:ss/rotom-heat: A+ -> A

Don't get me wrong, this mon is great, but it really doesn't appreciate mons such as Dragapult and Hydreigon running around, drop it to A.



I'll write some more noms later, but kinda busy getting some stuff done. Thanks for reading and have a nice day.
 

Jordy

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:ss/rotom-heat: A+ -> A
Don't get me wrong, this mon is great, but it really doesn't appreciate mons such as Dragapult and Hydreigon running around, drop it to A.
I could rehash everything that's been said already, but I'm not going to so I'll just redirect you to Gary's post about Rotom-H instead. Anyways, the reason I wanted to make this post is because arguments like this are honestly really weak and amount to nothing. To prove that, I'll reword the sentence: Don't get me wrong, Dragapult is great, but it really doesn't appreciate mons such as Clefable and Mandibuzz running around, drop it to A. All that arguments like this do is just point out that a Pokemon has checks and counters; which really isn't a reason to drop a Pokemon. A more valid argument would be a significant increase in usage of those checks and counters. However, I don't really think that's applicable here because Dragapult and Hydreigon are still as common as ever, so nothing has really changed for Rotom-H in that regard.
 
A more valid argument would be a significant increase in usage of those checks and counters. However, I don't really think that's applicable here because Dragapult and Hydreigon are still as common as ever, so nothing has really changed for Rotom-H in that regard.
I'd agree with this if there had been a VR update prior to this, however that isn't the case. Instead, we just have initial rankings which were not discussed publicly, and so, I think it's completely appropriate to argue that a certain Pokemon has been inaccurately ranked to begin with, (which I personally consider Rotom-H to have been) as opposed to recent meta shifts. The metagame is still in a very early stage and thus hasn't had the time to stabilize, and we likely haven't had the time to precisely assess everything's viability either, so it's reasonable to assume that a few Pokemon are just not where they should be.

While I'm at it, I want to point out that the Dragapult comparaison is a bit flawed because Hydreigon and Dragapult are huge offensive threats that are difficult to check and counter and switch into Rotom-H relatively easily. Comparatively, Mandibuzz isn't exactly an unwallable beast, and while Clefable kinda is, it can't both reliably check Dragapult and become very difficult to switch into itself. Which, yes, should absolutely have been clarified in the post in the first place, so on its own, it's a weak argument, but there is a real basis behind it, in my opinion.
 
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Gary

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The thing is, neither of those really reliably switch into Rotom-H either. Thunder Wave is a common filler move that is often ran in the 4th slot and considering how many hard switch Pult/Hydrei into Rotom, it's extremely easy to cripple them. Ye sure Rotom can't break them on its own but you essentially crippled them for the rest of the match. Wisp is less of an issue for them but on like Sub Hydreigon/Pult you're basically removing their Lefties. Then ofc there's Volt Switch which people will spam vs teams that rely on Pult/Hydreigon as their Rotom switch-in, which is just free chip and momentum. It's honestly not very often that shit just switches entirely in for free on Rotom and completely kills off your momentum, on the contrary.

I've just yet to see any compelling arguments to keep it out of A+. It's very splashable, hard to deal with defensively, and provides great utility and momentum. So many builds run the same Rotom-H/Seis combo for good reason. Clef, Mandi, Corv, Rotom-H, and Seismitoad are like the backbone of defensive team building right now.
 
UR —> C/C+


Roserade has a niche at the moment as an offensive spikes/toxic spikes setter. Roserade differentiates itself from other spikes setters in Ferro and Pex with an interesting offensive presence, strong grass and poison stabs coming off 125 base special attack allow it to be a ridiculously threatening mon, forcing out the many water and fairy types in the meta, as well as Tyranitar and Hippowdon, with a typing that allows it to come in on Seismitoad, Jellicent, Vaporeon, Milotic, Sylveon, Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Mow, Toxapex, Gastrodon and most Clefable of the things ranked at least B. With the omnipresence of Dragapult, Hydreigon and Dracovish at the moment, almost every team has at least one of the water or fairy types in this list in particular, meaning Roserade will have a switch-in option in almost every game.

However, I can see the alternate argument that Roserade lets many things in, especially Corviknight to Defog and remove it’s spikes. However, Roserade has one crucial tool to negate this - Sleep. The threat of sleep powder means that it is difficult for many things to come in on it, especially as having your Corviknight or Aegislash slept negates their ability to fulfill their defensive requirements. This leaves only a handful of things that can switch in without any real risk, Mandibuzz stands out as it’s immune to sleep powder, but still fears being poisoned off a 30% chance from a sludge bomb, as that severely dents its ability to take on several Pokemon it previously checked, especially as it doesn’t even get leftovers recovery, with some chip even Roserade will be able to take it out on the switch while poisoned.

Also, Roserade has a nice ability to revenge kill quite a few things, at base 90 speed, it actually is quite fast in this meta, and can revenge all of the pokemon listed above, as well as Excadrill, Hatterene, Clefable, Rotom-Mow, Tyranitar, Togekiss and Grimmsnarl with it’s stab combination.
Obviously it’s possible to play around Roserade, as it requires a fair amount of prediction and you can only sleep one mon as well as dealing with sleep powders low accuracy which means it isn’t always safe to use, but it is still a threatening Pokemon that can almost always achieve its goal of setting up spikes and pressuring the opposing team with them and usually prevent defoggers from immediately undoing it’s work.

However, I feel the real crux of why Roserade is deserves a place on the viability rankings is it fulfills several niches that almost no other Pokémon does at the moment, it’s the only real offensive spiker available, it’s the only pokemon with fast, reasonably reliable sleep and it’s got strong Poison and Grass stabs, which are only held Rotom-Mow and Toxtricity, who are both slower and have weaker stabs of those types.

Sample Set:
Roserade @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder

After testing out a few sets this seems to be the most reliable option, Toxic Spikes can be run and are quite nice especially in crippling bulky waters but Toxapex absorbs then pretty easily, alternatively Synthesis prevents Roserade from being worn down easily by life orb recoil so easy and shadow ball prevents the free switch once sleep has been used for Aegislash and Dragapult, but it’s very hard to find space in its moveset.

Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hatterene: 361-429 (113.5 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 408-484 (107.3 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 330-393 (83.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 224 SpD Grimmsnarl: 367-432 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 199-234 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 556-658 (119.8 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 382-450 (105.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 359-424 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 140-165 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO


Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038499952 - Roserade sleeps Clefable on the switch, sets up two layers of spikes on Pex which finish Dragapult and removes Rotom-Heat to allow Aegislash to sweep.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038641471- Roserade sleeps both Pex & Mimikyu as well as revenge killing Togekiss
Will hopefully add a couple more if I play some more games today.
 
Nominating
584.png
for B-

Meet Darmanitan Lite. Losing Darmanitan helps this thing alot. With 2 sets i could argue for, this thing deserves to be ranked.
First set i'll discuss is the Never-Melt Ice set
Vanilluxe @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Taunt

This Speed Tier is fantastic, allowing it to outspeed powerful mons like Specs Toxtricity, Banded Dracovish and Dracozolt, and killing all of them in one hit. This Pokemon is capable is smacking 90% of the tier with blizzard, with its only switch ins being Aegislash, Rotom-Heat, Tyranitar and Cinderace. (Arcanine and Flareon aren't technically OU but they work)
Pokemon neutral to ice like ferrothorn, corviknight and clef and not safe from the ice cream.
Doing up to 45% - 55% to ferro and corv and just walopping clef for like 75%

252 SpA Icicle Plate Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Corviknight: 169-199 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

252 SpA Icicle Plate Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 127-150 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Icicle Plate Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Bulky)
252 SpA Icicle Plate Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 208-246 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (LO Offensive)

It also ohkos toxtricity w blizzard without any chip (low chance) and guarunteed ohko after rocks
252 SpA Icicle Plate Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Toxtricity: 256-303 (87.9 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage

It Taunts things like Toxapex, corsola and milotic trying to beat it down.

Here's a showcase of it trashing Ice resist = Water types

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1037830499 (Got a kill on entry)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038242341 Rain Team

Speaking of rain, every fool will lead pelipper and end up getting like 43% on their phys def ferro from freeze dry on switch in, then it becomes a 50/50 on taunting or switching.

It's also the best/fastest veil setter in the game without A-tales around, getting taunt and explosion too. Entry comes from things like seismitoad, gastrodon, toxapex, pelipper, rotom-w, hippowdon, and mandibuzz on a roost

With the things it has, i'd argue it's better than everything up to C+ and would argue it's inclusion in B-
 

Attachments

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Shedinja from Unranked to C- or C

I've been using Shedinja on a good portion of my builds since day two of Sword and Shield's metagame on Showdown (and in some wifi battles) and I've found it to be consistently reliable due to several key factors that gave it new life in Sword and Shield OU.

- Heavy Duty Boots means Shedinja no longer has to worry about hazards
- Pursuit being removed and Knock Off distribution being seriously gimped were blessings
- The metagame's bounty of dedicated choice users (like Dracovish) means that moves like Fishious Rend aren't as intimidating for your team to deal with
- STAB Shadow Sneak actually hits hard, especially with how many Ghost types are running around in OU.
- Protect, Will-O-Wisp, and Dual STAB is simple but helps bring momentum and combined with Wonder Guard can be an absolute wincon for your team.
- Prominence of Rain means Sandstorm isn't as much of a problem, and means Shedinja is a great fit for Rain team archetypes.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038943194 (Late game clean)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1031689855 (How to handle non-flamethrower Kommo in OU)
 
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Taptricity

Trick or Treat!
is a Pre-Contributor
Just back here saying that I wholeheartedly disagree with dropping Dracovish. Sure it’s one dimensional but Fishious Rend is practically a braindead win button. The fact that you need to prep doesn’t speak against the sheer power Dracovish wields but only supports how big of an influence this mon is to the tier. I could argue that Seismitoad’s popularity is systematically impacted by the existence of this mon and hell a lot of trends from this metagame (not just Seismitoad but other Water immune mons and Baneful Bunker Toxapex) stem from the mere existence of this mon. While Seismitoad is the most splashable Dracovish answer a Band Psychic Fangs is a self assured 3HKO. While that may not seem like much, for a Pokemon lacking recovery this is a dramatic amount of chip damage due to it being a neutral attack. Damage of that level can be dangerous for Seismitoad when it relies on handling telegraphed resisted hits to maintain itself on the field. Outside of Seismitoad, Gastrodon and Vaporeon are the other consistent Dracovish answers (and aren’t splashable answers) because real talk, Jellicent is not a good Dracovish check considering how easy it is to just click Crunch and 2HKO Jellicent. Against Toxapex and Jellicent, Dracovish just needs to make a simple prediction and both are 2HKOed. It’s not as easy to set up Dracovish compared to Darmanitan due to its Speed, but the strength of Fishious Rend cannot be stressed enough on how that plays into how deadly of a Pokemon Dracovish is. Clearly a Pokemon that belongs in A. Also Water/Dragon has a load of merits defensively allowing Dracovish to be an emergency switch in to a +2 Overheat from Heattom as an example.
 
Just back here saying that I wholeheartedly disagree with dropping Dracovish. Sure it’s one dimensional but Fishious Rend is practically a braindead win button. The fact that you need to prep doesn’t speak against the sheer power Dracovish wields but only supports how big of an influence this mon is to the tier. I could argue that Seismitoad’s popularity is systematically impacted by the existence of this mon and hell a lot of trends from this metagame (not just Seismitoad but other Water immune mons and Baneful Bunker Toxapex) stem from the mere existence of this mon. While Seismitoad is the most splashable Dracovish answer a Band Psychic Fangs is a self assured 3HKO. While that may not seem like much, for a Pokemon lacking recovery this is a dramatic amount of chip damage due to it being a neutral attack. Damage of that level can be dangerous for Seismitoad when it relies on handling telegraphed resisted hits to maintain itself on the field. Outside of Seismitoad, Gastrodon and Vaporeon are the other consistent Dracovish answers (and aren’t splashable answers) because real talk, Jellicent is not a good Dracovish check considering how easy it is to just click Crunch and 2HKO Jellicent. Against Toxapex and Jellicent, Dracovish just needs to make a simple prediction and both are 2HKOed. It’s not as easy to set up Dracovish compared to Darmanitan due to its Speed, but the strength of Fishious Rend cannot be stressed enough on how that plays into how deadly of a Pokemon Dracovish is. Clearly a Pokemon that belongs in A. Also Water/Dragon has a load of merits defensively allowing Dracovish to be an emergency switch in to a +2 Overheat from Heattom as an example.
The fact that each team mandates a water immunity, while it may seem like it speaks volumes for Dracovish's power, actually reduces its effectiveness.
Having a switchin that renders Fishious Rend useless, and even if you predict it right, Seis still poisons you, Jelli has strength sap, and while Band Vish can 3hko seis, it trades that power for loss of a ton of speed benchmarks, leaving it prone to Hydreigon, Dragapult, etc.
 
Don’t know how y’all get all the cool graphics but I’ll put my opinion here anyway.

Bisharp to A- or A

This neat mon can consistently put in incredible damage against most common teams. The abundance of ghost types in the tier give it plenty of prey to feast on, and the standard sucker punch and iron head dual stab breaks holes in several defensive and offensive teams.

Additionally, it finds itself to be very customizable, with workable move variations including a secondary dark stab in throat chop or stealth rock.

(SR punishes Mandibuzz incredibly hard, it can set up SDs, has defiant for defog, and OHKO with iron head at +4, underrated rocker)

Additionally, it’s typing is very good defensively, offering it many opportunities to set up. In combination with defiant, getting +4 is not as much a stretch as you’d think it’d be. Additionally, you can punish your opponent for overyreling on certain “blanket checks” to counter Bisharp, a Bisharps good natural bulk allows it to rub Chople and Shuca berries very well. For example, a chople berry max HP set eats Conkeldurr’s Mach punches and takes 50% max from Corviknights body press, while a +4 sucker punch soundly 2 hit KOs.

However, it’s downsides are obvious and prevent it from being as splashable on common teams compared to other metagame superstars such as Clefable.

It can’t run all three Shuca, Occa, and Chople berry. It’s reliance on SP for speed leaves it vulnerable to both PP stalling and mind games from bulkier Pokemon. The SR set is especially susceptible this as Pokemon it should win against (Dragapult) can set up a sub and leave Bisharp with no potential to OHKO, while a Throat Chop variant will lack useful team utility in the midgame. Both sets find themselves being rather predictable, and the removal of bisharps knock off abd pursuit remove it from having any other usable options.

That said, it’s good defensive typing, high powered priority, and access to SD and Stealth rock can provide its team team with much needed defense, offensive, and utility all in one neat package, far outshining the more specific, niche possessing Pokémon in the B tiers.
 
Here's a followup post to the one I made yesterday, I'll talk about some of the rises/drops that have been mentioned and some Pokemon I forgot to mention in my other post.

Kommo-O to A- has been a hot topic on here and for good reason, being able to safely get up Stealth Rock and keep them up against a majority of defoggers thanks to Taunt is a great niche. Kommo-O is also able to check a great number of physical threats that BO teams would often struggle with such as Excadrill. It's offensive sets are great as well but faces stiff competition from the likes of Hydreigon which has much less defensive counterplay compared to Kommo-O, despite the OmniBoost that Kommo-O receives. However I feel like Kommo-O's true niche is a defensive rocker that checks a wide range of threats in the meta while also being able to keep up rocks vs every defogger/spinner. I very much Agree with the rise due to how good it is defensively in the meta right now but it may be too early to tell.

B+>A- = Agree

Obstagoon and Bisharp
to B+ is a rise that I personally disagree with. Bisharp and Obstagoon are checked way too easily by the ever increasing Body Press Corviknight,Hippo,Kommo-O and Conkeldurr. Obstagoon is also generally outclassed by Conkeldurr as an effective Balance Breaker as it doesn't hit as hard, doesn't have priority and overall has worse matchups against the top tier Pokemon. Bisharp has a cool niche at breaking down common balance bulids while having solid priority in Sucker Punch but I feel like due to increasing popularity of it's checks+being worn down pretty easily, it's gonna have a hard time actually doing what it wants.

,
B>B+= Disagree

Dragapult
to S is a little hard to understand, I won't lie. While Dragapult is very splashable in the meta, I feel like S tier should only be reserved for the best of the best such as Corviknight. Dragapult having a really lackluster physical movepool, having many common and viable checks and general lack of versatility especially compared to likes of Corviknight and Hydreigon really hold it into A+.

A+>S = Disagree

Rotom-Heat
being lowered is insane to me and I don't understand why people are saying it needs to lowered to A, Rotom-Heat still tears Balance and Stall a new one with it's Nasty Plot set. it has an amazing typing which allows it to serve as a great blanket check to things such as Corviknight,Clefable,Sylveon, and Mandibuzz is a great niche. GDarm leaving the tier has made Rotom-Heat even better imo as it is able to be a lot more flexible in it's EV Spreads as well. Nasty Plot/Will-O-Wisp also allows it to severely cripple normal switchins to it such as Toad and Dragapult It's just a great Pokemon all around and it's baffling that people want this thing dropped.

A+>A = Disagree
 
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TPP

Blue Bird
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RMT Leader
I'll go ahead and explain the rankings a little bit:

S Rank:

Corviknight is the best Defog user in the tier and having that role while also having superb bulk, excellent typing and access to great moves including Taunt and Roost puts it at the top of the viability rankings. It is extremely easy to slap it onto teams as a Defog user that can check/counter a good portion of the tier, including Ground-types like Excadrill, Steel-types such as opposing Corviknight, and Fairy-types such as Hatterene. It can also be used as a pivot into other threats such as Dragapult or Clefable thanks to its bulk. Taunt allows it to shut down slower and more passive mons like Ferrothorn, usually to prevent hazards from being set up or to prevent slower mons from setting up. It can usually choose to run Iron Head / Body Press / U-turn / Brave Bird, and/or it can choose to run Bulk Up to turn into a bulky sweeper. Lastly, Pressure complements Corviknight quite well as it can quickly PP stall moves such as Mystical Fire from Fairy-types, and Hex from Dragapult. Pressure with Taunt can usually create a situation where the opponent is forced to attack and this usually results in them getting PP stalled more quickly, or them switching out. Overall, there is a tremendous amount of upside to using Corviknight and nearly no downside to using it.

A+ Rank

Clefable with Life Orb is an incredible breaker, which has resulted in the metagame adapting to it with new mons/sets such as Sylveon, Flareon, and specially defensive Clefable. The specially defensive set provides great utility with Stealth Rock, Wish, and bulk to handle special threats such as Dragapult and opposing Clefable. Magic Guard is fantastic as it allows Clefable to safely sit in front of mons like Seismitoad that can pressure opponents thanks to status.


Dragapult is the fastest mon in the tier and can pressure opponents thanks to it's coverage, decent power, and variety of sets. Ghost-typing is incredible this gen, especially with Pursuit no longer being available, and Dragapult has the tools to punish common switch ins such as Mandibuzz with Thunderbolt or Will-o-Wisp. Thanks to its speed, it is able to force out offensive mons regularly and immediately pressure teams or create an opportunity to switch to a teammate. Infiltrator also allows Dragapult to prevent Substitute users, such as Hydreigon, from staying safe while attempting to sweep.


Mandibuzz is the next best Defog user in the tier and it is one of the few Ghost resists in the tier. Mandibuzz is able to somewhat reliably switch into Dragapult and other specially attacking threats like Hydreigon, and then remove hazards or remove opposing items with Knock Off. Knock Off is fantastic this generation thanks to no mega pokemon nor any z-crystals being available, and this allows Mandibuzz to apply a little bit of pressure. Alternatively, it can grab momentum after forcing out Dragapult/Hydreigon with U-turn and stay healthy thanks to Roost with Heavy-Duty Boots.


Rotom-Heat is a big threat to a lot of teams thanks to its new move in Nasty Plot alongside its coverage and power in Volt Switch/Discharge + Overheat. While Seismitoad may commonly switch in, having to take at least 40-50% from a +2 Overheat can cause it to get overwhelmed in the long run unless it has Wish support. It is able to switch in against many Fairy and Steel-types, including the highly common Clefable and Corviknight, and set up the following turn. Darmanitan and Dracovish forced users to run bulky water types, usually Seismitoad, Jellicent, Milotic, Ferrothorn, Toxapex and Gastorond, most of which Rotom-Wash is able to set up through forcing out or flat out KO.


Seismitoad is a fantastic Stealth Rock user thanks to its defensive typing alongside its ability Water Absorb, which allows it to reliably check Dracovish, Dracozolt and Rotom-Heat. Seismitoad can also pressure switch ins thanks to status conditions in the form of Scald burns and Toxic. Providing a defensive answer for several big threats while simultaneously providing Stealth Rock and being capable of applying a little bit of pressure thanks to Status has caused Seismitoad to see high usage and land a spot in the A+ rank.


Toxapex is a great physically defensive pivot that can also spread status via Scald, Toxic, Toxic Spikes and Baneful Bunker. The common core of bulky water / Corviknight or Mandibuzz / specially defensive mon, usually being Seismitoad + Corviknight + Clefable, is something that can find Toxapex frustrating not only because they can't KO Pex, but because they will have to send in something to KO Toxapex that doesn't want to be statused, such as Hydreigon. During that time, Toxapex may set up Toxic Spikes, and because it has a good matchup against the common hazard removal (Corviknight, Mandibuzz and Excadrill), it can give them a hard time when trying to remove Toxic Spikes as Toxapex can punish with Scald or Toxic as well. Finally, Haze allows it to continue staying alive and prevent sweeps from threats like SD Aegislash, Bulk Up Corviknight and Curse Snorlax.

Overall, the mons in S and A+ are extremely common and provide extremely great value with little cost.

A Rank

Aegislash is a very big threat thanks to Ghost-typing being an excellent offensive typing and its ability to go physical, special, or even mixed. It has a lot of sets, including Choice Band, Choice Specs, Swords Dance, Metal Sound and whatever you want really. Switching into it can be difficult due to having to accurately guess between the above sets, namely the first two as a specially defensive mon such as Mandibuzz will fall victim to Choice Band sets, while a physically defensive pivot such as Seismitoad will take a tremendous amount of damage from Specs Aegislash. While it boasts great power, it may not flat out 1HKO much, but it can 2HKO nearly everything and if it is able to attack while forcing a switch, then it is truly a big threat.


Despite its look, Dracovish is actually the hardest hitting pokemon in the tier thanks to Fishious Rend along with Strong Jaw. Dracovish is very centralizing as teams are somewhat forced to run either a water absorb mon, or 2 sturdy water resists in order to sufficiently switch into it. Similar to Darmanitan, it can still deal very solid damage with Fishious Rend while holding a Choice Scarf, which makes it difficult for offensive pokemon outside of Timid Dragapult to revenge kill it or force it out. Choice Band sets trade the ability to outspeed most of the tier for additional power to break past normal checks like Seismitoad (2HKO'd by Outrage), Toxapex (2HKO'd by Psychic Fangs), and Ferrothorn (2HKO'd by Low Kick). Either way, it can be a headache to switch into at times and is fairly reliable mon.


Dugtrio needs little explanation as it is still pretty good at trapping grounded threats with Arena Trap. It can trap and KO weakened threats like Clefable and Hatterene, or it can use its Focus Sash to trap faster threats and priority users, such as Excadrill after Rapid Spin and Sucker Punch Bisharp. While its ability to trap remains the same, it does struggle a bit more than it did in the previous generation due to losing Tectonic Rage, and also having less targets that can be 1HKO'd.


Excadrill is the most reliable Rapid Spin user in the tier and can pose a large threat thanks to Rapid Spin seeing an incredible buff, and Mold Breaker ignoring Levitate on common mons such as Rotom-Heat and Hydreigon. This means that Flying-types are the only safe immunities to Earthquake, and while this is great, Flying-types still have to deal with Iron Head, which something like Mandibuzz won't appreciate. Corviknight on the other hand can safely switch into Excadrill and proceed to Taunt it to prevent setup, or use Body Press to KO it. Corviknight's presence in the tier plays a part in Excadrill from being in a higher rank.


Ferrothorn was able to keep its most useful moves, including Knock Off and Toxic, both of which have fewer users this generation. Ferrothorn is the best Spikes user in the tier and is able to easily switch in on passive mons like Seismitoad and then proceed to set up hazards, or Knock Off an opposing item. Additionally, because Ferrothorn is the only Grass-type in the tier, Leech Seed is able to pressure everything outside of opposing Ferrothorn, and Magic Guard/Bounce users in Clefable, Hatterena and Sigilyph. However, Ferrothorn does have to deal with most Fairy-types carrying Fire coverage, which prevents it from switching in as easily as it wants to. Ferrothorn can also switch into Dracovish's Fishious Rend and proceed to threaten it with Leech Seed/Toxic + Iron barbs/Protect.


Hydreigon is a big threat to balance teams thanks to its new move in Nasty Plot this gen. Substitute sets are able to safely get a sub up against passive mons like Seismitoad and Toxapex, and then get a Nasty Plot off somewhat easily. Flash Cannon being able to hit Fairy-type makes it difficult to switch into, which results in Mandibuzz being the most common switch into Hydreigon. Luckily, the metagame has adapted a little bit and specially defensive Clefable can tank 2 Flash Cannons to force it out, while Sylveon can tank +2 Flash Cannon and immediately KO Hydreigon even with a sub up. However, while Sylveon and Clefable may be hard for Hydreigon to immediately break, Draco Meteor is now an option to potentially 1HKO Mandibuzz, which is not only a common switch in, but is also fairly likely to be the opposing team's only Ghost and/or Dark resist.

Every mon in the A rank can pose a big threat to any team, but they may possess a few extra hurdles to cross in order to maximize their value when compared to the mons in the A+ rank.

A- Rank

Conkeldurr is a fearsome wallbreaker that is pretty tough to switch into. Guts allows it to ignore status conditions from mons like Seismitoad and Toxapex, and then grants Conkeldurr respectable raw power to 1-2HKO a majority of the tier. Drain Punch keeps it healthy and makes it difficult to wear down, Earthquake and Thunderpunch provide great coverage, and finally, Mach Punch allows it to threaten faster offensive mons that may try to revenge kill it like Dugtrio. Conkeldurr's main downside would be its low base speed, which causes it to be outsped by Life Orb Clefable, Aegislash, both of which take little to nothing from Mach Punch.


With dynamax banned, Ditto has seen a sharp decline in usage and it now sits in A-. There are far less set up sweepers nowadays and Ditto is unable to be as valuable as it once was. It can still provide great utility through speed control/revenge killing opposing threats such as Nasty Plot Rotom-Heat and Dugtrio (you can trap them back and outspeed to KO them). As long as Ditto is capable of punishing offensive mons (which it always will), then it will continue to remain viable.


Hatterene, while incredibly slow, can turn into a dangerous sweeper thanks to Calm Mind, coverage options in Mystical Fire, and Magic Bounce, which prevents it from being phased out by Whirlwind, or directly statused by Toxic. Draining Kiss can act as somewhat reliable recovery at times, and Psychic alongside Fairy and Fire coverage can be difficult to safely switch into. Hatterene does have to deal with Corviknight, which can tank a +1 Mystical Fire and Iron Head back, and then faster threats which can force it out with ease. Due to its low speed, the number of faster threats refers to a good size of the tier as base 29 speed is extremely low.


Hippowdon is a solid mixed wall that can check threats like Excadrill, Aegislash and Dracozolt, while simultaneously providing Stealth Rock. Slack Off is great recovery to help Hippowdon remain healthy in the long run, and it can also phase out set up sweepers like Calm Mind Reuniclus and Bulk Up Corviknight. Hippowdon's main downsides are the slow speed stat, along with being threatened by Water-types and all 3 Rotom formes. It can also get shut down by Corviknight's Taunt and let in other hazard setters, such as Seismitoad, Clefable and Ferrothorn.


Rotom-Wash is a decent Choice Scarf user who can be difficult to handle at first thanks to Trick and Thunder Wave. Trick can cripple a switch in like Seismitoad or Ferrothorn, and Thunder Wave can paralyze fast threats like Dragapult, whom you can outspeed thanks to the Choice Scarf. Being immune to Dugtrio and Spikes is nice, and Rotom can also provide momentum via Volt Switch to get teammates in to wallbreak or setup. The downside to Rotom-Wash is that it struggles offensively and mainly needs to rely on Thunder Wave and Volt Switch to apply pressure. While that doesn't sound too bad, it can taken advantage of fairly easily by and forced out, especially after Tricking away its Choice Scarf.


Despite losing Pursuit, Tyranitar continues to be a good choice in OU. Its best set is the Choice Band set, which can be difficult to switch into as Crunch + Stone Edge can hit most of the tier very hard and weaken physically defensive pivots like Seismitoad. Defensively it can switch into Dragapult and Rotom-Heat, although it does have to worry about being burned by Will-O-Wisp. Tyranitar also runs a Stealth Rock set and is a decent setter thanks to its ability to pressure Corviknight, Mandibuzz and Excadrill with Stone Edge and Fire Punch. The downsides to Tyranitar include its speed tier, which can be nice at times due to it being faster than Clefable and Aegislash, but it is still fairly slow and is outsped by Dracovish and Dracozolt. Tyranitar is also trapped by Dugtrio, which means that you can lose it fairly easily even after getting a KO. Finally, Tyranitar dislikes bulky water types, which are very common at this point in time due to teams wanting to be prepared for Dracovish.

This is a bit of a repeating pattern, but the mons in A- carry a heavier cost or more flaws with them than the mons in the ranks above. These mons can be threats, but are also less splashable than the mons above them.

I'll end this post for now and do the mons in B rank next time and C ranks in the post after that. You all are more than welcome to ask questions or correct me on anything I posted above. Happy new year and here's to the first year of Generation 8 and the first day of the new decade. May you all have success with everything you do, reach new heights beyond your limits, and live life to the happiest while developing in whatever ways you choose. :toast:

Explanations for B Rank mons (post #78) can be found here.
Explanations for C Rank mons (post #81) can be found here.
 
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Ausma

Formerly mangarrow
I'm about to give the hottest take of the century, and I expect a lot of flack for it, but I want to put this on the table regardless. Before I get into the details of why I'm about to make the suggestion I make, I want to first explain what I believe an S tier Pokemon actually is.

An S tier Pokemon is a Pokemon that is able to be applied to most types of teams, and not only succeed in its role with extreme consistency no matter what type of team you put it on, but is also able to be a constant threat no matter how you play your cards simply by merit of the tools it brings to battle. Remember that last sentence, because it's a very huge reason why I personally think that...

S --> A+


Look, I'm not going say that it isn't worthy of being considered one of the best Pokemon in the tier (because it definitely is), but, I believe to a degree it is being overplayed, especially given how it's a tier above several Pokemon which I believe are overall better and more applicable on offensive, balanced, and defensive archetypes.

Let me break this down bit by bit, starting with its Bulk Up set.

Its Bulk Up set is simply fantastic, especially in conjunction with its phenomenal defensive typing and even better defenses. However, the fundamental problem lies in the fact that it, for the most part, faces extremely stiff trouble against common offensive Pokemon in the tier. Setting up with this thing by nature is a difficulty, because Electric and Fire are relatively common offensive types in this metagame and are overall very efficient means of coverage in this metagame.

Here are some calcs from common sets against its highest potential special defense. Physically oriented moves will be calculated under the presumption it will have already gotten 1 Bulk Up.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 240-284 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 196-232 (49 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-Heat/Wash/Mow Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 204-242 (51 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 294-348 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 440-518 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +2 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 330-390 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 294-348 (73.6 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 230-272 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 226-267 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It probably goes without saying that most of these would be clean 2HKOs given most are super effective, but these moves are not run solely to counter Corviknight specifically; in fact, these are only a few examples of the things that threaten most Corviknights, even with Pressure in the equation (The only calcs that are really directly affected by Pressure are Cinderace's Pyro Ball and Dragapult's Fire Blast, and it's not guaranteed there'll be 1 Bulk Up even active). This isn't even accounting for even more Pokemon such as Flareon or Toxtricity, for instance. While this seems like a conventional argument of "it has checks and counters, so it shouldn't be S tier"--checks and counters become an issue when its application becomes legitimately difficult. Darmanitan had checks, but that didn't stop it from being an offensive powerhouse and leading to a consequential ban; Corviknight, on the other hand, can't set up without a constant threat threatening to stop it (and even punish it outside of direct damage).

Common staple moves being run by extremely common Pokemon show that, while Corviknight is an effective, bulky threat, its Bulk Up set faces noteworthy trouble. This is even worsened by the fact most of these Pokemon can safely switch in thanks to a resistance or immunity to its commonly run Fighting/Flying/Steel coverage. Additionally, if these sets opt to run Defog as a move over Body Press, Iron Head, or Brave Bird, Corviknight is relegated to a troubling issue that will be addressed in my case against defensive Corviknight.

On top of that, the common Aegislash, Toxapex, and Corsola are incredibly solid defensive counters, as the former resists or is immune to both of its common moves, and the latter two have access to Haze, which can outstall its Roosts even with Pressure.

--

Next is its utility/Defog set, which, is incredibly flexible, however, suffers from something extremely troubling: 4MSS.

While it has incredibly useful options in Body Press, Brave Bird, Defog, U-Turn, Taunt, and the coveted Roost--by default, Roost and Defog are necessities. Of the last 2 moves, one or both should be offensive to not completely relegate Corviknight as too passive, leaving the user to suffer with missing an important move of some kind. The lack of Body Press makes Corviknight setup fodder for Excadrill (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1037445465 obviously my opponent didn't play at all optimally, but it shows that Corviknight itself was essentially helpless 1v1) or NP Hydreigon/Rotom, the lack of Taunt enables more passive Pokemon to burning/paralyzing it or competing for hazards, and the lack of U-Turn hurts the defending team's momentum. It's also worth noting that its lack of Toxic by nature makes it more passive, meaning that setting up on it isn't nearly as big of an issue as it would be with most other Pokemon in Corviknight's position with this set. Overall, Corviknight's defensive set suffers from only having 4 moveslots, as there's always something it can't support in some way (which in execution can be huge).

In conclusion, is Corviknight even remotely a bad Pokemon? Absolutely not. There's no denying this thing is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. However, its troubling problem with 4MSS and matchup against common defensive/offensive Pokemon hold it back from being something I can consider a truly S tier Pokemon especially when being compared to other contenders sitting in A+. Regardless, though, whether Corviknight is worthy of being S tier or not, I wanted to throw its weaknesses on the table, because in my opinion, its stance is somewhat weak in the S tier considering what Pokemon it's above. Really, I don't find it a whole tier better than a good chunk of the Pokemon in A+ with how comfortably most teams can beat it.

On that note... suggestions I agree with but have already been explained:

Clefable: A+ --> S
Dragapult: A+ --> S
Excadrill: A --> A+
Hydreigon: A --> A+
Kommo-o: B+ --> A-
Cinderace: B+ --> B
Ditto: A- --> B-
 
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Forgive me the double post, but there are certain things that I would like to nominate
1577807310904.png
B- ---> B+
My reason for raising it (and not lowering it for rank) is because, although it is a bit outclassed by Seismitoad, it has a Mirror Coat + Haze combo and I want to emphasize this, thanks to Mirror Coat, Milotic defends Dragapult well, too. of Hydreigon, etc ... Haze makes Milotic defend himself well from Hawlucha, Hatterene or NP Hydreigon, all are common threats, it is for the same reason that Umbreon is quite anti-metagame (and it is better than Gyarados imo).

1577811188923.png A+ ---> A-
Well, this pokemon is supposed to be a hydreigon counter, but in that role it is somewhat outclassed by Sylveon, since Sylveon endures and hits, but Mandibuzz endures better, but basically Hydreigon can go up to +4 / +6 thing that vs. Sylveon doesn't you can do, so that your most important niche is lost, also Mandibuzz has a terrible match-up vs Rotom-Heat, which is becoming more common, that is, it is very solid, since it is a very good defogger and That's why I don't lower it much lower, but I feel that A + is too much (even A rank), I think A- would be fine.

1577836212711.png B+ ---> A-
Although it left the dynamax that outdated it, the darmanitan galar ban made this mon improve a bit and now that Dragapult and Hydreigon went up, Togekiss Scarf can be an interesting check of both, since it overcomes and flinches them, Air Slash is his best Stab, since he flinches, that's why I say to lift Togekiss to A-.







Other Noms:

1577809672319.png
A ---> S (Agree)
Hydreigon is probably one of the three best OUs today (along with Clefable and Corviknight), because Substitute + Nasty Plot can shatter any team, the only thing that can stop it in a real way, they are mons like Sylveon or Mandibuzz, but I dare to say that in 80% of the time, normally weakened in the middle of the rival team or even sweep, my reason for to agree to upload it, is because there really is a 50/50 of getting in front of him, so I would say that S rank would be his best rank for this

UR ---> Ranked (Agree, B- or C+)
Well, this mon as BlueLobster said, can take advantage of Dry Skin, since it is immune to the water type and that means that it is immune to Scald or Band Barraskewda trapped in Liquidation or Waterfall, this is probably good, because it is also immune to Fishious Rend, too useful thing.
I also want to emphasize Solar Power, because under the sun it can be very good, TBolt Specs is 2hko to much of OU, see the calculations
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill in Sun: 736-868 (203.3 - 239.7%) - guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar in Sun: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon in Sun: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) - guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 318-375 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 584-688 (141 - 166.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's very powerful, I would really say B- / C + would be fine (I'm not nominating, I just agree with that nom)



1577811780634.png
A+ ---> S (Agree & Disagree)
This mon could be S rank for sure, but the problem is that the metagame is too accustomed to him, Sylveon, Mandibuzz, Scarf Hydreigon or Togekiss, unlike Hydreigon, Dragapult cannot sweep an entire team, because it does not have a form solid to stop your counters or checks, this does not have much potential to be S, because as I said, it has no solid way to stop your checks or counters, however it is very strong to be A+, because it has a versatility about the average of the same OU, I propose that they create an S- rank for Dragapult, since there would be a midpoint.

1577843275699.png
B- ---> B+ (Agree)
1577843374578.png
C+ ---> B (Agree)

The reason to upload them, is that rain is a very good offensive archetype, I will divide into 2 parts with each
Pelipper: The reason to raise it, is that apart from the rain, it provides excellent support with immunity to the ground type and hit them super-effective with Scald, a very valuable thing for the rain teams, because the ground type is really common and have someone Stop them is fine, Drizzle is good, because it rains, B + is fine, because his niche is only in a certain type of teams, but he is certainly very good at what he does.

Barraskewda: This mon is more than a mediocre physical rain sweeper, now that Darm Galar left, he can no longer be outclassed, because this mon works separately in some HO, Rain and all the offensive playstyles except perhaps BO, but it is precisely because its versatility in the Balanced and Offense playstyles, since in Balanced if you want a physical attacker who has water-like coverage, Barraskewda is a good choice in my opinion, because Band Barraskewda is a mon that is difficult to stop, because few can receive 2 Waterfall or Liquidation, C + is for mons outclassed, but has a very small niche, Barraskewda is very strong and I think B would be fine.

1577860872071.png
B+ to A- (Agree)
Now apart from Clangorous Soul (which is very good), it has a slightly standard set, its defensive set and stealth rock, so I'm going to focus on that set, despite the lack of clangorous soul here, really defensive kommo-o can acting as a check for Hydreigon no Draco Meteor until +6 manages to hold a cannon flash and hold Defensive Clefable Moonblast (although that happens only if Kommo is 252+ SpD), but that set gives it versatility, which leads me to the conclusion that uploading it is a good idea, until A-.

I hope you like my noms, cya later and happy New Year :blobthumbsup::blobwizard:
 
I'm about to give the hottest take of the century, and I expect a lot of flack for it, but I want to put this on the table regardless. Before I get into the details of why I'm about to make the suggestion I make, I want to first explain what I believe an S tier Pokemon actually is.

An S tier Pokemon is a Pokemon that is able to be applied to most types of teams, and not only succeed in its role with extreme consistency no matter what type of team you put it on, but is also able to be a constant threat no matter how you play your cards simply by merit of the tools it brings to battle. Remember that last sentence, because it's a very huge reason why I personally think that...

S --> A+


Look, I'm not going say that it isn't worthy of being considered one of the best Pokemon in the tier (because it definitely is), but, I believe to a degree it is being overplayed, especially given how it's a tier above several Pokemon which I believe are overall better and more applicable on offensive, balanced, and defensive archetypes.

Let me break this down bit by bit, starting with its Bulk Up set.

Its Bulk Up set is simply fantastic, especially in conjunction with its phenomenal defensive typing and even better defenses. However, the fundamental problem lies in the fact that it, for the most part, faces extremely stiff trouble against common offensive Pokemon in the tier. Setting up with this thing by nature is a difficulty, because Electric and Fire are relatively common offensive types in this metagame and are overall very efficient means of coverage in this metagame.

Here are some calcs from common sets against its highest potential special defense. Physically oriented moves will be calculated under the presumption it will have already gotten 1 Bulk Up.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 240-284 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 196-232 (49 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-Heat/Wash/Mow Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 204-242 (51 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 294-348 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 440-518 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +2 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 330-390 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 294-348 (73.6 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 230-272 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Corviknight: 226-267 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It probably goes without saying that most of these would be clean 2HKOs given most are super effective, but these moves are not run solely to counter Corviknight specifically; in fact, these are only a few examples of the things that threaten most Corviknights, even with Pressure in the equation (The only calcs that are really directly affected by Pressure are Cinderace's Pyro Ball and Dragapult's Fire Blast, and it's not guaranteed there'll be 1 Bulk Up even active). This isn't even accounting for even more Pokemon such as Flareon or Toxtricity, for instance.

Common staple moves being run by extremely common Pokemon show that, while Corviknight is an effective, bulky threat, its Bulk Up set is not infallible by any stretch of the word. This is even worse considering most of these Pokemon can safely switch in thanks to a resistance or immunity to its commonly run Fighting/Flying coverage. Additionally, if these sets opt to run Defog as a move over Body Press or Brave Bird, Corviknight is relegated to a troubling issue that will be addressed in my case against defensive Corviknight.

On top of that, the common Aegislash, Toxapex, and Corsola are incredibly solid defensive counters, as the former resists or is immune to both of its common moves, and the latter two have access to Haze, which can outstall its Roosts even with Pressure.

--

Next is its utility/Defog set, which, is incredibly flexible, however, suffers from something extremely troubling: 4MSS.

While it has incredibly useful options in Body Press, Brave Bird, Defog, U-Turn, Taunt, and the coveted Roost--by default, Roost and Defog are necessities. Of the last 2 moves, one or both should be offensive to not completely relegate Corviknight as too passive, leaving the user to suffer with missing an important move of some kind. The lack of Body Press makes Corviknight setup fodder for Excadrill (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1037445465 obviously my opponent didn't play at all optimally, but it shows that Corviknight itself was essentially helpless 1v1) or NP Hydreigon/Rotom, the lack of Taunt enables more passive Pokemon to burning/paralyzing it or competing for hazards, and the lack of U-Turn hurts the defending team's momentum. It's also worth noting that its lack of Toxic by nature makes it more passive, meaning that setting up on it isn't nearly as big of an issue as it would be with most other Pokemon in Corviknight's position with this set. Overall, Corviknight's defensive set suffers from only having 4 moveslots, as there's always something it can't support in some way (which in execution can be huge).

In conclusion, is Corviknight even remotely a bad Pokemon? Absolutely not. There's no denying this thing is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. However, its troubling problem with 4MSS and matchup against common defensive/offensive Pokemon hold it back from being something I can consider a truly S tier Pokemon. Regardless, though, whether Corviknight is worthy of being S tier or not, I wanted to throw its weaknesses on the table, because in my opinion, its stance is somewhat weak in the S tier considering what Pokemon it's above.

On that note... suggestions I agree with but have already been explained:

Clefable: A+ --> S
Dragapult: A+ --> S
Excadrill: A --> A+
Kommo-o: B+ --> A-
Cinderace: B+ --> B
Ditto: A- --> B-
Yeah, Corviknight has problems, nobody said it didn't. However the sheer utility,flexibility and overall usefullness of the mon outweigh it's cons greatly. All this post is saying is that Corviknight has checks and counters but nobody said it didn't so what's your point? Also Corviknight doesn't have 4MSS, it's usually quite easy to figure out what moves you want on Corviknight since usually the attacking move just correlates to whichever mon Corviknight needs to check for the team. Do I need a better check to Excadrill? Body Press, Do I need a better Hat/Clef check? Iron Head.
 

Ausma

Formerly mangarrow
Yeah, Corviknight has problems, nobody said it didn't. However the sheer utility,flexibility and overall usefullness of the mon outweigh it's cons greatly. All this post is saying is that Corviknight has checks and counters but nobody said it didn't so what's your point? Also Corviknight doesn't have 4MSS, it's usually quite easy to figure out what moves you want on Corviknight since usually the attacking move just correlates to whichever mon Corviknight needs to check for the team. Do I need a better check to Excadrill? Body Press, Do I need a better Hat/Clef check? Iron Head.
Whether a teambuilder knows what to run on a set doesn't entirely mean that it's devoid of 4MSS. Yes, while it's true you know what to run on a Corviknight based on what your team needs, that doesn't at all change the fact that it is held back by the fact it can't run its other options. And yes, you can argue that of literally every Pokemon, but certain Pokemon are held back by that more than others, and Corviknight is a gigantic exhibit as to how that is as merit of how defining its other options actually are.

The point of my post was to bring attention to the fact that its checks, counters, and flaws are much more notable than what people suggest of it; overall, that Corviknight has a hard time despite being incredibly useful and flexible. With all the fire and electric moves running around, and all the different things Corviknight would love to be able to cover in a fell swoop (especially with its defensive set), a smart player is extremely capable of exploiting its flaws to the point where I think it should be held in mind.

And, yes, I'm aware of the post above talking about how checks and counters aren't a good argument, but... I disagree, somewhat. You can say something like Butterfree gets destroyed by common offensive types, and you'd be right; not only are rocks an issue for it, but so is its general application due to the offensive/defensive troubles it has to face. Obviously, that's not the best analogy, but it can define the execution of a Pokemon depending on what the checks and counters actually are. In Corviknight's case--with how often Fire and Electric moves are being used, how many offensive threats are running them, and how they are easily able to cleave an inherently defensive Pokemon--it can and should be considered an argument if they're genuinely problematic for the application of the Pokemon (mainly if they are a more defensively oriented Pokemon, such as Corviknight).
 
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Hatterene definitely needs to fall to B+ or just B. It’s good not great SpDef and SpAtk lead it to be a common CM sweeper and the main magic bounce user in the tier, but I just find this Pokémon incredibly underwhelming when it hits the field. It’s special resilience is only OK before boosts, and without specs or orb, it’s not really hitting big numbers attacking wise without a boost either. Common attackers fairies should be able to check, like Hydreigon, can run wild since their stab moves hit neutrally. Additionally, it’s poor physical bulk and not great defensive typing means any pysical Attacker can generally punch through its defenses. This is all fairly obvious, but since it lacks both checks and power it falls flat in most regards compared to the overall better fairy type breaker, clefable, and fairy type dragon check, Sylveon.

One could argue its TR strategy is decent, but Psychic Moonblast is terrible dual stab which overlaps multiple resisted and super effective hits, making psychic often redundant. This isn’t even mentioning that mystical fire, it’s go to coverage move, is so low BP most Mons can easily eat one and KO back with steel moves.

It’s also a terrible MB user since it loses to every steel type rocker under the sun, and it’s tendency to have no recovery means a scald burn from toad can be very crippling.

And the worst part about it is that most Pokémon, even when Hat gets some boosts, can sacrifice themselves to get a 1 for 1 trade.

This Mom is just to underwhelming and EVERY TIME it hits the field (which is usually hard) I breathe a sigh of relief that my opponent didn’t bring clefable.


(Apologies for typos/grammar errors this was typed on a phone.)
 
UR -> C+

Arcanine is similar to Flareon since its main purpose is to counter LO clef so there's no real reason for this mon to be unranked. Both have nearly the same Special bulk and both have a healing move which allows them the hard counter clef. The main thing that Flareon can do over Arcanine is wish pass, but thats not very useful compared to the benefits of Arcanine.

Arcanine has a much bigger movepool which can stop certain pokemon from switching in. Even though Flareon does have will o wisp it can be forced to protect sometimes because of wish while Arcanine has wisp and alot more moves.
  • Play rough can be used to stop dragons from switching in (Dracovish/Zolt)
  • Crunch is useful against ghosts, Flareon has no way of actually damaging something like Dragapult if it doesn't land a wisp on switch
  • Extreme Speed, A great way of cleaning up late game compared to Flareons quick attack (Helps with dugtrio)
  • Wild Charge which can scare bulkier waters and make it so that Arcanine isnt useless against rain
  • CC which is more reliable than Flareon using superpower
  • It also gets pyschic fangs and iron head if you want but there isnt really a reason to use them unless you're avoiding recoil from flare blitz
Another benefit to Arcanine is obviously his ability. He has superior speed and physical bulk compared to flareon with intimidate. He can outspeed ttar, crawdaunt, and others if they invest into speed while Flareon is usually moving second. Intimidate is always useful so Arcanine is still useful when the opponent doesn't have clef, It switches better into mimikyu, corviknight, grimmsnarl, and pretty much all the physical attackers in this tier

Essentially Arcanine is a more unpredictable Flareon which is more useful pretty much all the time since it has much better stats and a larger movepool, most Flareons will just have some variation of protect/wish/flare blitz/wisp.
Wish passing isn't as useful as all the benefits of Arcanine.
what do you do vs rain?

Wish+protect (or wish pass) is way more reliable than morning sun in a flooded metagame. Arcanine doesn’t fill a niche because it’s outclassed in its strengths and held back by the metagame with its niches.

The only thing arcanine has going for it is extreme speed, but that only does so much when dragapult exist. Flareon isn’t much of a top tier threat it’s just a viable anti-meta pick, being outclassed by that I don’t think deserves a spot. You could justify some kind of intimidate physically defensive set but even then you’re hardly achieve much with water and ground spam.
 
This list seems super janky to me atm. I don't see how Corviknight deserves S tier outside of being the best defog user, it has multiple sets but really all that matters is whether it is running bulk up and what attack it's using. Otherwise every team should be comfortably beating it. It puts very little pressure on a game for me in nearly every type of team I've ran. Screens teams it can't deal with taunt, rain teams it gets comfortably run over, balance any wallbreaker worth their salt can run over it. It feels like we're putting it S tier because it comfortably fits on a lot of teams. So did Tangrowth last gen and it was A- on the last tier list. I don't think that's the sole reason things should be S rank.

Besides that, Seismitoad and definitely Hippowdon deserve to drop some. Seismitoad is versatile but doesn't do any one thing amazingly. As a defensive mon it's frail as an offensive mon it's not that powerful. It has a very useful spread of resistances I'll give it that and is definitely annoying but it never is a hard wall like pex or ferro for any team. You could argue that's not its role but if it doesn't do that what is it doing in turn? It's your one stop shop to a Dracovish counter but so are 4 other mons. I do think it's good but not A+ good.

Hippowdon is just complete nonsense every gen this thing is overrated for no reason. Please someone explain to me how this thing is useful.

Ditto obviously isn't worthy anymore of being up there. There are a few others that prob should be lower (Gengar, Rotom-Mow, Sigilyph) but none of them I feel as strongly as those above.

As for underrated mons, if there's any mon worthy of S tier atm (which is questionable actually) it would be Dragapult. It's the only mon in the metagame capable of running several different sets that are all very viable. Sub/Hex, Sub/DD, specs, scarf, banded even, LO, these are all good to great depending on matchup. Its sub sets especially are complete win cons against certain teams. I could see a mixed attack set become popular eventually as well.

Grimmsnarl is probably the most underrated mon in the whole list. It could easily be A- to A rank. It too has multiple viable sets. Its attack and bulk are respectable and its utility is nothing to underestimate. Nothing else on the tier uses taunt, screens, and twave as well as it does. It is a full stop to Dragapult and Hydreigon much of the time, does great chip to tanks with its dark/fairy spam, and can surprise kill Excadrill, Bisharp, and Tyranitar by running Reflect and Drain Punch. Its bulk up set is fairly scary as well if you aren't running a special attack user that can survive a sucker punch. It could even run a decent special attacking set tbh with Nasty Plot and Dark Pulse/Focus Blast to throw off opponents. Might be a little gimmicky but I could see that filling in on some teams.

The final mons I wanna bring up that are true headscratchers are Barraskewda and Mew. I mean whoever posted this list and saw those two directly below Sigilyph and said "yes this seems correct" I would love to know who your dealer is cuz that must be some good stuff.

I don't even know if I have to argue this one, anyone with half a brain can tell Barraskewda sweeps up I mean it doesn't even need to be necessarily under rain to do so either. I've seen LO ran now that you can't get out of its choice band from DMax anymore and it still does enough to do its job effectively while having the coverage to always have a good move to click.

As for Mew, again I value it a lot for its versatility and never knowing what it can actually beat. 100 across the board stats is actually fairly remarkable in the current metagame as well. What can revenge/check it and what can wall it is almost entirely dependent on what it's running as well, I don't think there is a single mon that is reliable in that regard. It has fire blast/flare blitz for steels, focus blast/cc for dark, it can run dd or agility to outspeed would be threats like Dragapult or Gengar and possibly OHKO them dependent on what it's running. It's still a great lead with Taunt, rocks, and w/e status you want besides Toxic (rip). Its main flaw atm is that a defensive variant isn't very viable since it lacks recovery now. Regardless, it doesn't belong in the same tier as Flareon and Xatu ffs.

Overall, I can see a bias atm toward defensive pokemon which makes sense when Darm-G is gone and this gen left all the wallbreakers back in Alola. But I do think they're being overrated slightly, they do feel all very good but usually as a team unit not so much individually. Ferro and pex can be ran on a lot of different teams and feel overwhelming, something like Seismitoad I generally only get scared of if it checks half of a mon supplemented by another mon on their team checking the other half. Rarely is there a team I build where I have no answer for Seismitoad. I don't even think about it. I have to think about if I can get past pex or Corv.
 
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