Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [See post #321]

Status
Not open for further replies.
UR -> C/C-

I believe Accelgor has a niche in the current SS OU metagame. It's a mon known for it's speed and stacking hazards. While it does not do much more, I do believe that he does this pretty good.

Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Encore
- Final Gambit

Set Explanation + niche:
  • The first 2 moves are given and probably the main reason you would use this thing, being Spikes and Toxic Spikes. The other 2 moves are the ones that set it apart from the others.
  • Encore is a good move to punish more passive setters/removers like Hippowdon, Seismitoad, Mandibuzz which can gain you a ton of momentum.
  • Encore also has the ability to punish Setup Sweepers, paired with his speed. It outspeeds all non Speed boosting Pokémon AND outspeeds +1 Tyranitar (Dragon Dance), Neutral Kommo-o (Clangerous Soul) and Adamant Excadrill (Rapid Spin)
  • Full HP Final Gambit straight up OHKOs a lot of relevant Pokémon. Some examples: 0HP Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Hydreigon, 92HP Grimmsnarl (Smogdex HP stat), Cinderace, Toxapex (Even dies after a turn of poison damage), 0HP Conkeldurr, Xatu, Hatterene
  • If FG Doesn't kill, it can still open punch holes and deny Defog/Spin at the same time (ex. Leave Seismitoad at 24% (30 after lefties) which opens a door for Dracovish. Leave Corviknight and Mandibuzz super low (9%/15% and 14% respectively while denying defog)
  • Being faster than Dragapult really is something that is handy, considering how popular it is right now. While it can't destroy it with FG, it can punish the SubDisable set with Encore and either continue setting up hazard or switch and gain momentum.

Niches over other Suicide Leads:
  • General: Has a surefire way to deal with Hazard deniers like Cinderace, Hatterene and Xatu in 1 move.
  • General: It is the fastest non-scarf Pokémon in the tier which means it isn't as afraid of a bad lead matchup since it will be able to do at least something.
  • : Way better Speed tier and a move to instantly threaten a lot more. Accelgor doesn't have 4MSS and doesn't have to pick it's checks
  • : Has 2 forms of hazard in Spikes and TSpikes instead of Rocks. Accelgor has more chance to keep them up VS Corviknight & Mandibuzz. Excadrill is also slower.
  • : While being able to almost exactly run the same set (Webs over TS), Shuckle has no Speed or HP to Final Gambit effectively and might get fogged on. Did I mention Accelgor's speed yet?

Replays with small notes about the use Accelgor had in the game:

1) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040707068-ke45wg1imoiv7ws0i9hboajcmmy7pzbpw
Accelgor got a spike up and prevented potential screens from orbeetle.
Notes about his Driller plays:
  • If he just spun again I could have gone to Dragapult or one of my steels and forced other stuff + no rocks.
  • If he rocked T1 i could have encored him there and still have a full HP Accelgor (OHKOes orbeetle with FG) + more layers/Tspikes.
  • Other attacks could have been encored as well and potentially more spikes depending on his move/set.
  • You also live Spin + EQ/Steel Beam (Iron Head or Rock moves 2HKO you)
While he might not have played excadrill optimally VS Accelgor, Accelgor fulfilled it's niche by getting up a layer + dent Orbeetle

2) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040987874
Accelgor got op 2 layers of spikes, prevented Mew from getting extra layers without me being able to fully benefit from the free turns and got rid of Cloyster.
Spikes in this game were useful because it puts everything in range of Dragapult.

3) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040995049
In this game Accelgor got up a layer of spikes that didn't matter.
In the endgame however, it was able get an Encore off on Clefable which allowed Corviknight to setup an Iron Defense and win the game.

Other Options:
While not having the biggest movepool, Accelgor has a couple of other moves that you could consider on him if you don't think my sample set is good enough for you. I won't go too in depth on these moves, I bet you can figure their use out yourself.
The moves are: Yawn, Acid Spray, Mud shot, Toxic and a bunch of priority moves.
Accelgor has access to the combination of Unburden and Endure. While Unburden boosted Accelgor litterally is the fastest thing on the planet, there is no real use you can pull off with this. Endure + Liechi + Reversal sounds nice but Accelgor rather has either Encore or Final Gambit to keep the pressure high. You're also better off hitting your opponent with a wet sponge. Endure + Pinch Berry + FG is also a possible moveset but that only does like 50 to 0HP Rotom so there is no merit in even trying to dent something with it


TL;DR
Accelgor a hazard stacking Speed Demon that can gain you a lot of momentum in a game. While not being the most versatile mon, it does have the tools to carve a niche for itself in this metagame, thus i feel like it should be ranked

 
Last edited:
:Araquanid: UR -> C+ (or higher)

After playing around with webs and watching other players do so, I have concluded that Araquanid is the best Sticky Web user in the tier. It works basically the same way as other web setters: lead off, click webs, try to do some damage before dying, etc etc. The difference is that Araquanid is able to keep its webs up against OU's hazard removal methods better than the others, as I'll explain below.

Araquanid @ Mental Herb
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
-Sticky Web
-Liquidation
-Lunge
-Mirror Coat

I've been using this set primarily. EVs are simple, moveset is pretty standard. I chose to use Mental Herb as not much outside of powerful SE hits can OHKO Araquanid from full. Other Sticky Web users, such as Galvantula and Ribombee, generally don't have that luxury as they are too frail to forgo Focus Sash. Araquanid also sets itself apart because it hits like a truck. This doesn't need any explanation.

So we've established that between its bulk and its ability to run Mental Herb, Araquanid can reliably get webs up. But how good is it at keeping webs up against removers? Very.

  • :Excadrill: Rock Slide-less drill cannot 2HKO and is OHKOd (2HKO if sash obv) in return by Liquidation. No spins allowed.
  • :Corviknight: Can stall out webs with Pressure but is also threatened by Liquidation. Araquanid puts up a fight against Corviknight whereas most other web setters cannot do so. Run Bisharp, as all webs teams should.
  • :Mandibuzz: Cannot stall out webs and dies to Liquidation spam.
  • :Conkeldurr: Dies to Liquidation.
  • :Hatterene: Dies to Liquidation.
  • Other niche stuff like :Weezing-Galar: and:Xatu:They die too.
Araquanid is the only web setter that consistently threatens all of the aforementioned hazard removers. Galvantula gets an honorable mention but it completely loses to Excadrill so it's outclassed.

To expand on the "hits like a truck" part, max attack Adamant Water Bubble Liquidation will put a hole in nearly anything. Araquanid can generally fire off a few of them after getting webs up thanks to its decent bulk, preventing opponents from setting up as they would against more passive hazard setters. Nothing is getting a sub up against it.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1041034261
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1041035379

Some more placement changes I'm in favor of:
:Sylveon: -> A-
:Bisharp: -> B+ / A-
:Grimmsnarl: -> B+ / A-
-> C+ / B-
:Bewear: -> C-
:Mew: -> B+
:Mimikyu: -> B
:Kommo-o: -> A-
:Barraskewda: -> B
:Crawdaunt: -> B
 
Last edited:
Hydregion A -> S

The meta's already evolved quite a bit since the G-Darm ban and Hydregion has come out to be a big winner, and imo a centralizing force in the metagame. With a great speed tier, amazing defensive typing, and a movepool that gives it terrifying flexibility, there's almost no reason not to run this thing. Defensively, it's amazing as an offensive check to nearly all of the bulky water types, who never run (or can't run) Ice Beam, as well as checking a host of anti-meta mons that otherwise can break the game. Bisharp, Grimmsnarl, and other setup Sucker Punch users are too slow to hit it with anything else, so if they get chipped down, Hydre can usually finish them off (although Max Spdef BU Grimm will still win). Its one of the few great checks to Reuniclus, whose reliance on Focus Miss can be exploited by Sub+NP or Sub+Roost sets. Hydre is also a complete monster to LO Clefable, Aegislash, Dracovish, Excadrill, Mew, and non-Darts Dragapult - being able to revenge or even set up on these mons is huge because of their propensity to get kills and put you in an awkward position. Hydre is in no way broken, but it is centralizing - it takes all of the loose threads in the meta and forces them back into their corner, with out a doubt one of the best mons available.
I actually agree with this a lot, although a+ is probably fine with me. With gen8 losing out on chansey, a +2 Life Orb Hydreigon kind of just ohkos everything that isn't sylveon and more niche pkmn like umbreon. You can also go with specs for more immediate pressure. It's definitely the strongest corebreaking mon rn, and its speed tier is pretty good in this metagame. Just wouldn't go with S because I still find it somewhat annoying to fit on a couple of teams mainly because of it's lack of immediate recovery this gen(best way mainly being with a couple volt switch/u-turn mons), but it definitely deserves a raise.
 

RottenInfernape

Banned deucer.
:kommo-o: B+ -> A-

This Pokemon has a great Dragon/Fighting typing which allows it to cover up many teams weaknesses and has a number of resists such as Dark, Water, Fire, Electric, Grass, etc. It also has a great ability in Bulletproof that gives immunity to Clefables Moonblast and Dragapult, and Soundproof gives immunity to Hyper Voice from Sylveon. This Pokemon works soo great under screens and has a signature move called Clangorous Soul that boosts all of its stats by +1. Though this makes Kommo-O lose 33% of its HP, it can take up an item slot. An item introduced this gen known as the Throat Spray makes Kommo O a great special sweeper, making Special Attack +2 instead of +1. It's special movepool is also packed with great coverage, such as Flash Cannon to check Fairy types. Additionally, Kommo O can be used as a Stealth Rock lead with the ability Overcoat, giving immunity to chip damage from weather such as Sandstorm and Hail. This Pokemon must be used correctly, as +1 speed outspeeds Dragapult and Mimikyu must atleast have its disguise worn off. Kommo O appreciates having hazards up, so it can be a bigger threat to opposing teams. Though other Fighting types like Conkeldurr are also great to use, the two serve completely different roles. Plus, there are only 6 Fairy types in the OU metagame. This makes it much easier to check Fairy types before sweeping with Kommo-O. Togekiss has also recently fallen off in OU, so it's not that common. Now that Galar Darmanitan and Dynamax are banned from OU, Kommo O can sweep more safely without having to worry about getting revenge killed and tanked by an HP boost. Overall, Kommo O is a great pick on many teams, both as a special sweeper and a Stealth Rock lead.
REPLAYS:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038876525
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038848523
 
Last edited:
I actually agree with this a lot, although a+ is probably fine with me. With gen8 losing out on chansey, a +2 Life Orb Hydreigon kind of just ohkos everything that isn't sylveon and more niche pkmn like umbreon. You can also go with specs for more immediate pressure. It's definitely the strongest corebreaking mon rn, and its speed tier is pretty good in this metagame. Just wouldn't go with S because I still find it somewhat annoying to fit on a couple of teams mainly because of it's lack of immediate recovery this gen(best way mainly being with a couple volt switch/u-turn mons), but it definitely deserves a raise.
Strongly agree with this, Hydreigon should be A+ minimum. Like Kratos mentioned its speed tier is very valuable in this meta which allows it to overwhelm a lot of slow paced teams and also offense alike. Checking it mid late game can be painful seeing as only four mons outpace it in the tier.
Between the four Dragapult is the most reliable check with its speed+infiltrator. Dugtrio isnt doing anything unless its sash is used with reversal, hjk cinderace is rare thru my experience and then that leaves a timid mew set with dazzle (lol). Between those 4, Exca in sand and Conks mach punch(both of which require chip to take down), its no easy feat to dismantle +2 hydreigon mid late game. Choice Scarfers are also pretty niche in the meta so the bump here seems quite appropriate.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
It also has a great ability in Bulletproof that gives immunity to Clefables Moonblast
(citation needed)

So that this isn't a one-liner, I also want to agree with the general sentiment on hydreigon: it's a dummy strong wallbreaker. Some people have run Draco/flash cannon/fire move/NP @LO so not even u-turn mandibuzz+revenge killer is a good answer, pmuch leaving sylveon as the only reliable defensive counterplay, and while that mon is pretty good at its job, it's not hard to overwhelm, chip, and just force to be passive in general. I think offensive counterplay isn't as bad as it seems, hydra will rarely be at 100% health from LO recoil or setting up subs, but it still has good bulk and good speed tier, so you really need to make sure your speed control isn't just scarf rotom-w/h/m. We are gonna start seeing far less scarf hydra with gdarm gone and more variants of NP/specs, so it'll be interesting to see how meta will try to adapt to hydra
 

Colonel M

Anime pfps discredit your value
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus

Prime2049

Banned deucer.
Nominating Cloyster for A-Rank.

Seriously, Cloyster is my girl right now. How is she not even mentioned in the VR at all, much less not being mentioned at the highest grades? The King's Rock set is indisputably archetypal of HO. With a free turn and one item proc with non-trivial statistical odds, Cloyster single-handedly sweeps any balance team not electing to run Conkeldurr or Aegislash. This strain it puts on teambuilding alone warrants it a spot as one of the premier offensive threats in OU. What's more is that a large portion of the meta invites Cloyster to set up, the worst case scenario against a balance team being that you have 30% odds to get burned and 70% odds to seriously maim their party members. Adamant Cloyster being able to outspeed most relevant Choice Scarfers and Ice Shard OHKO the ones that she doesn't allows her to be a destructive threat against offense teams without needing to give up that hard-hitting nature and balance-destroying item hold. Her natural bulk also is key in navigating offense mirrors in several situations. Did I mention that she either makes setup bait or 1v1s any Corviknight that doesn't run Body Press?

Keeping in line with the replay rule:
edit: fixed minor grammar mistakes
 
Last edited:
Nominating Cloyster for A-Rank.

Seriously, Cloyster is my girl right now. How is she not even mentioned in the VR at all, much less not being mentioned at the highest grades? The King's Rock set is indisputably archetypal of HO. With a free turn and one item proc with non-trivial statistical odds, Cloyster single-handedly sweeps any balance team not electing to run Conkeldurr or Aegislash. This strain it puts on teambuilding alone warrants it a spot as one of the premier offensive threats in OU. What's more is that a large portion of the meta invites Cloyster to set up, the worst case scenario against a balance team being that you have 30% odds to get burned and 70% odds to seriously maim their party members. Adamant Cloyster being able to outspeed most relevant Choice Scarfers and Ice Shard OHKO the ones that she doesn't allows her to be a destructive threat against offense teams without needing to give up that hard-hitting nature and balance-destroying item hold. Her natural bulk also is key in navigating offense mirrors in several situations. Did I mention that she either makes setup bait or 1v1s any Corviknight that doesn't run Body Press?

Keeping in line with the replay rule:
edit: fixed minor grammar mistakes
For C+ or something yeah, sure. For A-? Yeah right. I notice in none of those replays Cloyster has to tank special hits, only physical ones. That's because it can't.
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 294-348 (121.9 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Bad)
252 SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 204-241 (84.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Who needs specs or coverage)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 184-217 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (No LO, no investment, no problem)
And King's Rock will only help you 41% of the time. Perspective: Togekiss gets Air Slash flinches 60% of the time, and isn't haxxy enough. But Togekiss loses a lot to priority. Guess what Cloyster does:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 224-266 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yep. Should it be ranked? I don't see why not. But A-? That is an insult to the 59% of times you don't get the hax. Try more like C something.
Also, last Gen's Cloyster analysis that describes in great detail its many issues. https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/cloyster/ Turns out KR is only recommended for BSS, where hax can win you a 3v3.
 
Last edited:
Nominating Cloyster for A-Rank.

Seriously, Cloyster is my girl right now. How is she not even mentioned in the VR at all, much less not being mentioned at the highest grades? The King's Rock set is indisputably archetypal of HO. With a free turn and one item proc with non-trivial statistical odds, Cloyster single-handedly sweeps any balance team not electing to run Conkeldurr or Aegislash. This strain it puts on teambuilding alone warrants it a spot as one of the premier offensive threats in OU. What's more is that a large portion of the meta invites Cloyster to set up, the worst case scenario against a balance team being that you have 30% odds to get burned and 70% odds to seriously maim their party members. Adamant Cloyster being able to outspeed most relevant Choice Scarfers and Ice Shard OHKO the ones that she doesn't allows her to be a destructive threat against offense teams without needing to give up that hard-hitting nature and balance-destroying item hold. Her natural bulk also is key in navigating offense mirrors in several situations. Did I mention that she either makes setup bait or 1v1s any Corviknight that doesn't run Body Press?

Keeping in line with the replay rule:
edit: fixed minor grammar mistakes
Well, I mean, apart from dying to literally any and every special move, and Adamant Cloyster is outsped by Scarfed Hydreigon,
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cloyster: 237-279 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
And I have literally no idea what you mean by natural bulk do you not see the 45 base spdef stat.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 254-302 (105.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 340-400 (141 - 165.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cloyster: 282-333 (117 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
etc.
 

Prime2049

Banned deucer.
Thanks for the discussion. I'll respond to both points in turn:

1) There are many factors this generation that make Cloyster more viable than C+; it's an accurate characterization of her for generations with national dexes filled with Pokemon that can tank its +2 Shell Smash hits and where there are more viable special attackers and phazers to the point where Cloyster has no room to breathe, but in this generation, there's a dearth of them on mainstream balance and offense builds. There's usually going to be at least one opportunity for Cloyster to set up. See the replays for examples of how an offensive team can force setup bait for Cloyster in; they're all from 1800 range with competent battlers on both sides.

For C+ or something yeah, sure. For A-? Yeah right. I notice in none of those replays Cloyster has to tank special hits, only physical ones. That's because it can't.
That's because it's illogical to set up on a special attacker. If Cloyster could do that, it'd probably warrant being S Ranked.

2) While it's true that Hydreigon outspeeds Cloyster, here's an Ice Shard calc on Scarfed Hydreigon:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is why I mentioned that it either outspeeds most relevant scarfers or kills them. Its priority has great typing for handling its common scarfed checks such as Hydreigon and Dragapult. After one layer of rocks, you have decent chance to kill plus the 10% King's Rock flinch. After two layers of rocks, it's a non-issue, similar to how Scarfed Dragapult dies after a layer. It is more bulky and can pose a bit of a road block, but I don't see it too difficult for an offensive team to force in scarfed Hydreigon at least once prior with rocks up for the kill or for that chance to kill.
 
For C+ or something yeah, sure. For A-? Yeah right. I notice in none of those replays Cloyster has to tank special hits, only physical ones. That's because it can't.
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 294-348 (121.9 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Bad)
252 SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 204-241 (84.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Who needs specs or coverage)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 184-217 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (No LO, no investment, no problem)
And King's Rock will only help you 41% of the time. Perspective: Togekiss gets Air Slash flinches 60% of the time, and isn't haxxy enough. But Togekiss loses a lot to priority. Guess what Cloyster does:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 224-266 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yep. Should it be ranked? I don't see why not. But A-? That is an insult to the 59% of times you don't get the hax. Try more like C something.
Also, last Gen's Cloyster analysis that describes in great detail its many issues. https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/cloyster/ Turns out KR is only recommended for BSS, where hax can win you a 3v3.
C+ or B- seems like an appropriate place to rank Cloyster to me. On HO teams it can be a very threatening closer. A lot of its checks from previous generations like Magearna, Jirachi, Heatran (if not running a water stab) and other beefy Steel types are now gone, plus it gained access to a much better water stab in Liquidation. Combined with the general slower pace and lower power of the SS meta, Cloyster stands out more than it has since Gen 5.

On the other hand, these points about weakness to priority and special hits are very relevant and Cloyster can't function without team support. Light Screen is especially crucial for providing setup opportunities against defensive mons with special attacks. Coming in off a slow U-turn or a sac, Cloyster can set up on Sylveon, Spdef Clef, Seismitoad with Earth Power, and even Rotom-heat without Thunderbolt. That said, Cloyster still appreciates these mons not being around at all, not to mention things like scarf Hydreigon.

I don't have any replays (though I do know someone who runs Cloyster regularly) so not making an official nomination, I'm just adding what I've gathered from my experience.
 
Thanks for the discussion. I'll respond to both points in turn:

1) There are many factors this generation that make Cloyster more viable than C+; it's an accurate characterization of her for generations with national dexes filled with Pokemon that can tank its +2 Shell Smash hits and where there are more viable special attackers and phazers to the point where Cloyster has no room to breathe, but in this generation, there's a dearth of them on mainstream balance and offense builds. There's usually going to be at least one opportunity for Cloyster to set up. See the replays for examples of how an offensive team can force setup bait for Cloyster in; they're all from 1800 range with competent battlers on both sides.
So many OP mons that used to beat Cloyster like... Machamp and Raikou. Dexit has not been so bad that a mon sitting at C in RU is suddenly top-tier. The list of things that checked it last gen in RU and whether it still applies:
"Steel-types: Cloyster has issues breaking Steel-types such as Metagross, Registeel, and Bronzong because it only runs Icicle Spear and Explosion."
Still a huge issue. Steel is a prime competitive type, and while Corv is part Flying, it beats it anyway with Body Press, Ferro walls you to hell, Exadrill can Iron Head it and 30% of the time Flinch you to boot, Bisharp uses you as setup bait... Could be worse to be fair.
"Grass-types: Pokemon like Mega Sceptile, Roserade, Shaymin, and Virizion can apply immediate pressure against Cloyster and force it out of the battle. However, none of them want to come in when it sets up Shell Smash or uses Icicle Spear or even the rare Ice Shard."
Ferro again. And Rotom-M who's really nice RN and usually scarfed.
"Fighting-types: Cloyster's Ice typing leaves it vulnerable to Pokemon such as Machamp, Toxicroak, and Bewear before it can boost with Shell Smash. After it has boosted, these Pokemon need to be wary about switching directly into it."
Conk. Also very common coverage and priority.
"Bulky Water-type Pokemon: Pokemon such as Milotic, Slowbro, and Mega Blastoise can easily take on Cloyster's Icicle Spear. However, none of them want to come in on Explosion, as it can severely dent or even OHKO them after a Shell Smash boost."
We have these in buckets. Name one of about 10.
"Special Attackers: Pokemon such as Raikou, Gardevoir, and Necrozma target Cloyster's weaker Special Defense stat to potentially knock it out, especially if Cloyster goes for Spikes instead of Shell Smash against them."
Oh yeah, we have buckets of these too.
"Priority Moves: After Cloyster has activated Focus Sash, it becomes vulnerable to priority moves such as Zygarde-10%'s Extreme Speed, Machamp's Bullet Punch, and Lycanroc-D's Accelerock."
Conk again, Bisharp again etc.
"Status Conditions: Toxic can stop Cloyster from setting up entry hazards or wallbreaking and breaks its Focus Sash, severely limiting what it can do. Cloyster getting burned or paralyzed makes it lose a lot of offensive presence."
Yeah, and it's not like there's any of these flying around.
"Taunt Because Cloyster is not very fast, it is very vulnerable to being shut down by Taunt users such as Vanilluxe, Houndoom, and Noivern. These Pokemon also easily beat Cloyster with their powerful special moves, especially if its Focus Sash has been broken prior. However, none of these Pokemon want to directly switch into any of Cloyster's moves, especially if it has boosted with Shell Smash."
Corv, Goon, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon too. Cinderace, Grimmsnarl, etc.
And you're not even using Sash or Explosion, so many of these caveats don't apply.
That's because it's illogical to set up on a special attacker. If Cloyster could do that, it'd probably warrant being S Ranked.
Sure, but it also can't switch in on any mon that might be mixed or even resisted special hits.
2) While it's true that Hydreigon outspeeds Cloyster, here's an Ice Shard calc on Scarfed Hydreigon:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is why I mentioned that it either outspeeds most relevant scarfers or kills them. Its priority has great typing for handling its common scarfed checks such as Hydreigon and Dragapult. After one layer of rocks, you have decent chance to kill plus the 10% King's Rock flinch. After two layers of rocks, it's a non-issue, similar to how Scarfed Dragapult dies after a layer. It is more bulky and can pose a bit of a road block, but I don't see it too difficult for an offensive team to force in scarfed Hydreigon at least once prior with rocks up for the kill or for that chance to kill.
This is the exact same calc he ran but with rocks. A 31% chance is not something to write home about. A 10% KR flinch lol, you may as well run Bright Powder at that point. And sure, if you can play 5v6 for most of the game and get lucky with KR flinches, you win. Leave the noob-bait at home. Cloyster is only for beating teams that don't respect it, hence why it deserves a VR spot to show it can beat unprepared teams. But anyone who actually has a check for it, pray for that less than 50% hax.
 
Thanks for the discussion. I'll respond to both points in turn:

1) There are many factors this generation that make Cloyster more viable than C+; it's an accurate characterization of her for generations with national dexes filled with Pokemon that can tank its +2 Shell Smash hits and where there are more viable special attackers and phazers to the point where Cloyster has no room to breathe, but in this generation, there's a dearth of them on mainstream balance and offense builds. There's usually going to be at least one opportunity for Cloyster to set up. See the replays for examples of how an offensive team can force setup bait for Cloyster in; they're all from 1800 range with competent battlers on both sides.



That's because it's illogical to set up on a special attacker. If Cloyster could do that, it'd probably warrant being S Ranked.

2) While it's true that Hydreigon outspeeds Cloyster, here's an Ice Shard calc on Scarfed Hydreigon:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is why I mentioned that it either outspeeds most relevant scarfers or kills them. Its priority has great typing for handling its common scarfed checks such as Hydreigon and Dragapult. After one layer of rocks, you have decent chance to kill plus the 10% King's Rock flinch. After two layers of rocks, it's a non-issue, similar to how Scarfed Dragapult dies after a layer. It is more bulky and can pose a bit of a road block, but I don't see it too difficult for an offensive team to force in scarfed Hydreigon at least once prior with rocks up for the kill or for that chance to kill.
Did you just decide to ignore my calcs, even with 180 def, 50 HP is just mediore at best, and dies to basically all SE hits, and dreigon has guaranteed chance to kill after rocks.
And I don't understand "after two layers of rocks", Hydreigon is literally only affected by rocks, you can't have 2 rocks ;-;
Also Pex can take 3 hits of rock blast, and provided you don't double flinch (about a 16% chance) it just phazed you or poisoned you, effectively stopping you, and putting you in range to be revenge killed.
I don't doubt Cloyster deserves to be in the VR.
What I am saying is that it is definitely not A-, even B+ would be a stretch.
 
Last edited:

Prime2049

Banned deucer.
Did you just decide to ignore my calcs, even with 180 def, 50 HP is just mediore at best, and dies to basically all SE hits, and dreigon has guaranteed chance to kill after rocks.
I didn't respond to the fighting priority calcs because it is a valid point; fighting priority does revenge Cloyster quite effectively. It should not be ignored, though, that Cloyster is one of the main reasons why Balance is/should be starting to run fighting priority, and the fact that it warps teambuilding to that degree is proof of its competitive pedigree this gen.

Every other thing listed (i.e. weak to Special attacks) are obvious weaknesses of Cloyster, and I did consider them before nominating the Pokemon; I believe they're not consequential enough to drag it down. Corviknight cannot Bulk Up on Rotom, but its strengths outweigh its weaknesses in the metagame; the same, I believe, holds true for Cloyster.
 
I didn't respond to the fighting priority calcs because it is a valid point; fighting priority does revenge Cloyster quite effectively. It should not be ignored, though, that Cloyster is one of the main reasons why Balance is/should be starting to run fighting priority, and the fact that it warps teambuilding to that degree is proof of its competitive pedigree this gen.

Every other thing listed (i.e. weak to Special attacks) are obvious weaknesses of Cloyster, and I did consider them before nominating the Pokemon; I believe they're not consequential enough to drag it down. Corviknight cannot Bulk Up on Rotom, but its strengths outweigh its weaknesses in the metagame; the same, I believe, holds true for Cloyster.
Unfortunately, in this case, Cloyster's weaknesses outweight it's strengths too much to be in A-, or even B.
Your comparison to Corviknight doesn't even make sense; Corv is significantly better, and Corv can indeed Bulk Up on Rotom, Rotom usually only carries Volt Switch, and deals like 40 something, therefore Corv can roost off the damage after.
Hydro Pump also does less, so your analogy is also pretty weak.
Cloyster is definitely not one of the main reasons Balance is running fighting priority, Conk runs fighting priority regardless of the presense of Cloyster; it just makes sense due to its slow speed and really doesn't have anything else to run bar Defog (which is a fringe pick on Conk anyways).
Lucario also doesn't run fighting priority because of Cloyster, it runs it because it's speed is middling at best, and it wants a way to deal with faster threats like Hydreigon.
 

Prime2049

Banned deucer.
Robot, you misinterpret "forcing balance to run fighting priority" as "forcing Fighting-type Pokemon to run fighting priority." If I responded to the rest, this argument would be circular.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
A ---> A+: I know this was brought up a few times but I definitely want to echo this nom. I legitimately think this Pokemon is kinda dumb. The choiced sets have like no reliable switch-ins and both have almost entirely different methods of counterplay. Pex can switch into CB relatively well but still has to worry about Shadow Claw critting which definitely happens more often than you'd hope. It obviously can't really do shit vs Specs tho unless it runs full SpDef which is pretty sub optimal rn. It doesn't even need to kill itself with Head Smash to beat Mandi considering you just 2HKO with Iron Head anyway, and we all know how much Steel Beam does. Like legit the only things I've seen really handle Aegi semi reliably is like Corvi, but that depends a lot on Pressure stalling and praying that you don't get SpDef drops. SpDef Corvi also just gets blown back by like Banded CC and Shadow Claw has a pretty damn good chance to 2HKO (also crit sucks for him too). SD/Double Dance is also pretty sick on HO so there's that too. All of its sets are aids to deal with defensively, its typing and defenses gives it many opportunities to force shit out, and with moves like Banded Sneak it can just outright clean late game. Dumb mon.


B+ ---> A-/A:
Ghosts are broken as fuck like for real. Gengar is extremely underrated and keeping it any lower than A- would be a crime. People are starting to finally catch just how easily exploitable Mandi is as a "Ghost resist". Specs Gengar is like a middle ground between Pult and Aegi. It's strong enough to actually kill shit with its moves like Aegi, and it's fast enough to outspeed most relevant offensive Pokemon. Sludge Wave can 2HKO SpDef Mandi with very little chip, and Sludge Bomb can just fish for Poison and 2HKO it the next time. Like just look at all the common builds rn and tell me what really deals with Gengar well. It takes full advantage of a meta where Scarfers are uncommon and people's only real means of Speed control is Pult, while also taking advantage of how shitty Ghost counterplay is. Every time it comes in, it has a pretty good chance at just claiming a kill much like Aegi. It also has T-bolt to pressure Mandi/Corvi further and Trick if you really want to be a dick, although honestly Specs is something you can afford to keep in most matches. I'm not gonna say Dragapult is overrated but I think people depend way too much on that Pokemon and are hesitant to explore other options. Gengar is definitely not the same as Pult but people are definitely forgoing using this Pokemon thinking they absolutely need to use Pult as their Ghost on every team.

A+ ---> A: I'm not gonna go full Omari and call this mon ass but it's definitely not A+ anymore. Its main niche rn is the fact that it gets Defog and Corviknight isn't something that can fit on virtually every team (although sometimes it feels that way). It's a shoddy Ghost resist in a meta plagued by Ghosts that can pressure it someway or another. The only Ghost I feel comfortable switching into is Pult because more often than not they'll just spam U-turn anyway. It's also not really the greatest Hydreigon answer anymore either because more people are starting to run Nasty 3 Attacks, so it's not very consistent. It's also major Conk bait which sucks pretty bad because fuck letting that thing in for free. It's a good Defogger and can still be a pain to deal with but it's very hard to justify it being the same rank as Clef/Rotom/Toad imo.

Also Cloyster these nuts.
 
Last edited:
Robot, you misinterpret "forcing balance to run fighting priority" as "forcing Fighting-type Pokemon to run fighting priority." If I responded to the rest, this argument would be circular.
I was referring to the only viable priority.
Yes, CB Aegis runs Shadow Sneak, but it runs it regardless of Cloyster, it runs it because it hits insanely hard, and helps against Faster ghosts like pult and Gengar.
 
Didn't expect to discuss Cloyster of all things but I feel like there are too many silly arguments here to ignore

So many OP mons that used to beat Cloyster like... Machamp and Raikou. Dexit has not been so bad that a mon sitting at C in RU is suddenly top-tier.
Screenshot_20200106-211006__01.jpg

lol
while Corv is part Flying, it beats it anyway with Body Press, Ferro walls you to hell, Exadrill can Iron Head it and 30% of the time Flinch you to boot, Bisharp uses you as setup bait... Could be worse to be fair.
Have you forgotten that Ferro is part-Grass?
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 200-240 (56.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 150-176 (62.2 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cloyster doesn't exactly like Ferro but it doesn't wall it either. Also, you can hit Bisharp with Liquidation if you run it
and Rotom-M who's really nice RN and usually scarfed.
+2 Cloyster outspeeds Rotom-M
Corv, Goon, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon too. Cinderace, Grimmsnarl, etc.
Grimmsnarl is the only one here that's really relevant. Corv and Mandi get outsped by Cloyster, Hydreigon never runs Taunt, and to my knowledge neither do Cinderace or Obstagoon (also, Cinderace lose 1v1 anyway).

I didn't respond to the fighting priority calcs because it is a valid point; fighting priority does revenge Cloyster quite effectively. It should not be ignored, though, that Cloyster is one of the main reasons why Balance is/should be starting to run fighting priority, and the fact that it warps teambuilding to that degree is proof of its competitive pedigree this gen.
Buddy, if you think Cloyster, a pokemon with 3.6% usage, is one of the main reasons Conk runs Mach Punch, as opposed to Hydreigon or Bisharp or Obstagoon, I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway, I think Cloytser can probably go somewhere in the C ranks. It's a pretty dangerous sweeper, even if it is stopped cold by many bulky waters, most notably Toxapex.
 
Last edited:

Cloyster

I would go as far as saying that Cloyster is easily the biggest threat in the metagame at the moment. I have used King's Rock Cloyster since Gen 5 when it was also viable, having peaked #1 with it on a number of occasions then, and have topped the ladder with it on a few occasions this time around too.

With all of the missing mons in this generation, Shell Smash Cloyster is definitely the best it has ever been - the removal of Scizor and Magnezone from the game in particular helps enormously. The other massive help is that few of the OU Steel types resist Ice: Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Corviknight are all hit neutrally and the ones that do resist, namely Aegislash and Bisharp can be flinched to death, with Bisharp also getting stuck in Ice Shard/Sucker Punch mind games. The two bulky steel types that would wall it are Bronzong and Copperajah, both of which I have hardly seen and probably take massive damage to a +2 Cloyster anyway + can be flinched to death.

Cloyster sets up on the following OU mons: Cinderace, Corviknight, Dracovish, Physical Dragapult, Dugtrio, Excadrill, Gyarados, Hippowdon, Mimikyu, and a whole host of other non-OU mons that are regularly seen. This list only grows if you use it under screens. Most teams feature at least two of these mons.

A big part of the reason it is so deadly is because of the 41% flinch chance from King's Rock - and we all know what game this is. That is, 41% of the time, your counter to Cloyster loses to it. If I'm using an offensive team, I like those odds. Most balance teams run just one mon that can take 2 hits from a +2 Cloyster, which means that you immediately have a 41% chance of outright losing to it at +2. Again, I like those odds. Rotom-W, Milotic, Jellicent, and Seismitoad all lose to a +2 Cloyster 41% of the time. Even running the broken max-max Bold Pex doesn't help if the Cloyster user flinches you once, since you more or less have to switch out to regen, likely losing more of your team.

Another big factor is that at +2 speed, Ice Shard can KO many opposing priority solutions to take you down.

Yes it requires a specialist team built around it to function, but so do most of the threatening sweepers to be at their most effective. Arguments akin to 'it can't take special hits' are ludicrous. Simply don't leave it in against special hits.

Cloyster has been absolutely smashing up the top of the ladder consistently which I think says something at the very least, below are a few replays from some of my games under Webs as well as some guy called ezwz who used it on Screens and peaked #1 a few times too.

I would suggest it should be ranked at B as an absolute minimum.

These replays probably don't do it justice, if you look through some of my other replays, you'll see that Cloyster would have swept several teams 41% of the time, and many of the other sweeps, the player just forfeits immediately with nobody saving a replay.

Corumba
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040837097
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1037200998
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1036586341
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1036548824

ezwz
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038437933
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038405842
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1037273951
 
Last edited:
I'd also want to throw in my support for the Cloyster, honestly I think A is an appropriate ranking for it. For many games, especially in the less diverse parts of the meta, you simply auto win which many people have hinted at. But if you run the screens, you actually can hax your way to victory and it's insane. you can Also live a lot of special hits even without the help of them. The the person that said that you couldn't setup on special attackers.... and your point? there are like 3 of the those bitches and if a mon has Draco meteored, you definitely can..... thats a weak point even without their being 3 special attackers but even then like come on. you weren't gonna setup on special mons anyway. You also live a Mach punch and can run sash. people act like teams weren't custom made multiple gens to get volcorana in safely like come on bruh cut the bullshit. I’m not wit it.



A+ ---> A: I'm not gonna go full Omari and call this mon ass but it's definitely not A+ anymore. Its main niche rn is the fact that it gets Defog and Corviknight isn't something that can fit on virtually every team (although sometimes it feels that way). It's a shoddy Ghost resist in a meta plagued by Ghosts that can pressure it someway or another. The only Ghost I feel comfortable switching into is Pult because more often than not they'll just spam U-turn anyway. It's also not really the greatest Hydreigon answer anymore either because more people are starting to run Nasty 3 Attacks, so it's not very consistent. It's also major Conk bait which sucks pretty bad because fuck letting that thing in for free. It's a good Defogger and can still be a pain to deal with but it's very hard to justify it being the same rank as Clef/Rotom/Toad imo.
I didnt really know ppl ran non np 3 attacks lmao bc I only run np 3 attacks and mandibuzz is ko'd every game. people go to it and I’m like ?? +2 Draco bitch fuck you thought was happening. when that happens to me I just switch out bc I’m a god tier mandibuzz player but like the sets ppl running that are meant to take hits from hydre are a joke
 
Last edited:
Yikes this cloyster discussion though. I have some experience with Cloyster but honestly i dont really understand the point of nomming this thing past like C+/B- rank.

Cloysters Good, i'm not going to deny that. That being said i think its outrageous to put this thing in A- rank which implies its among the best of the best in the current meta. It really isnt. Cloyster is without a doubt a threat but i think Its stretching it to call it one of the best.

Tons of teams are not completely prepared for cloysters ice stabs which **is** good, however cloyster has tons of shortcomings which i feel hurt it and prevent it from being a top tier threat. Personally i feel like those in favour of cloyster rising that high are over hyping it.

Counterplay for cloyster is as follows:
GK seismitoad (lives as long as its above 90% and returns with a OHKO)
Ferrothorn (typically running max defense currently in order to "check" dracovish and can smack cloyster with powerwhip/leech seed+protect
scarf hydra/Dragapult (pretty sure both of these outspeed if adamant?)
Aegislash (resists both skill link moves and threatens to demolish it with Sball/flash cannon)
Toxapex (toxic+baneful bunker, or just haze it lol)
Rotom-Wash (Deals roughly under 50% to defensive rotom-w and must run explosion in order to break it)

(theres more but im not going to list every way of dealing with it lol)

This isn't even factoring for the fact if you run "kings rock" you are at risk of getting ohko'd by virtually every special attack which can make setting up pretty risky in many situations. Also speaking of kings rock, that just sounds like a low ladder set, why bother using it over somthing thats more useful like focus sash or white herb instead of relying on hax to be on your side.

Again im not going to deny cloysters possibly a niche mon thats viable right now. HOWEVER the posts that are for cloyster just feel like they are overselling cloysters usefulness. I'm not going to go into this much further but while being decent cloyster has a tough time setting up in many cases because of how specially frail it is in a metagame where you got tons of very strong special attackers. Compared to other set-up sweepers cloysters slower and requires shell smash under its belt to do anything which i think prevent it from doing much or being worthy of anything above B-.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 6)

Top