Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [See post #321]

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what do you do vs rain?

Wish+protect (or wish pass) is way more reliable than morning sun in a flooded metagame. Arcanine doesn’t fill a niche because it’s outclassed in its strengths and held back by the metagame with its niches.

The only thing arcanine has going for it is extreme speed, but that only does so much when dragapult exist. Flareon isn’t much of a top tier threat it’s just a viable anti-meta pick, being outclassed by that I don’t think deserves a spot. You could justify some kind of intimidate physically defensive set but even then you’re hardly achieve much with water and ground spam.
you still can burn with will-o-wisp, and you can use wild charge. The only water type that safely can switch it without taking any damage is Seismitoad. Play rough still threatens Dragapult, Mandibuzz, and Hydreigon. I think people are sleeping on Arcanine really.
 

I think this thread's getting a bit out of hand with washing machine hate here. Washtoms still a damn good scarfer w trickwisp and pumps a great stab move for a scarfer bc ur not instantly forced out once you use it unlike overheat and leaf storm + its resistances give it a nice spot on a lot of teams bc it can offensively check both waters and fires which neither of heat/mow can do well. Sure, it's not the best rotom form anymore nor is it super super splashable, but throwing it down 3 subranks is pretty ridiculous. There's also been some neat NP hex sets and such being used to get around the issues that come w having pump as your main stab in this meta, and those are a nice way of using its defensive typing while bypassing some of the issues it has w its offensive typing. It shouldn't drop any lower than B+ at most and noms putting it in B and below are absolutely ridiculous.

sidenote: send mowtom up to A- or A rank that things good as fuck lol
I'd agree it's good, but Species Clause and the presence of Vish really works against it. You even say yourself how good mowtom is, and with 2 other A- or above mons that you can't run if you run Wash, it really hurts it. And it's not even just the issue of a Water immunity, rn using a water move gives one of your opponent's mons access to recovery they otherwise lack, or a power boost to an otherwise passive mon. While Overheat and Leaf Storm are both not ideal to be locked into for a scarfer, RN being locked into a Water move is terrible. Overheat can even put a dent in Toad for something else later. The Sub/Hex set sounds interesting for sure, I'd love to see some replays of that doing damage.
 

I think this thread's getting a bit out of hand with washing machine hate here. Washtoms still a damn good scarfer w trickwisp and pumps a great stab move for a scarfer bc ur not instantly forced out once you use it unlike overheat and leaf storm + its resistances give it a nice spot on a lot of teams bc it can offensively check both waters and fires which neither of heat/mow can do well. Sure, it's not the best rotom form anymore nor is it super super splashable, but throwing it down 3 subranks is pretty ridiculous. There's also been some neat NP hex sets and such being used to get around the issues that come w having pump as your main stab in this meta, and those are a nice way of using its defensive typing while bypassing some of the issues it has w its offensive typing. It shouldn't drop any lower than B+ at most and noms putting it in B and below are absolutely ridiculous.

sidenote: send mowtom up to A- or A rank that things good as fuck lol
rotom wasn't even that decent last generation but yall kept pushing it - honestly cognitive dissonance in my opinion. it is a terrible scarfer and easily exploited. the trick set can be replaced by any other rotom or mons with trick. using np and hex is just simply foolish, youre not beating anything that you could have before and being locked into hydro pump this generation is setup bait, especially bc you are VERY weak. It may come as shocking to you bc you may have viewed rotom as near a tier but I never have, and we all agree that it's worse you all just are holding onto a false notion of where it was in the meta last gen; so I ask you, revisit your assumptions and actually look at your replays. I promise you, this shit is not good. use data to support your mindset

btw legit just had a game with the hex set Mannat in high ladder, that goes for you too BlazeLatias.. it did absolute dick. I am not backing down here lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1042916633
 
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I'm confused I was just saying rotom-wash should drop from A- to B+. Im pretty sure in my post i even explained that rotom-wash isn't in a good spot in the current metagame. What i'm trying to say is that dropping a pokemon (especially rotom-wash) from A- to C+ is kinda silly. Similar to your drop nom with mandibuzz or your haxorus nom you tend to either really overate or completely undersell the pokemon you are noming which isn't right. Pokemon should rise/drop 1-2 sub ranks at a time max and saying mandi which is currently A+ rank should drop all the way down to C+ rank because stuff like Aegi and hydra have mostly adapted to it is too far of a stretch. Rotom-w is still fairly decent, Water+electric stab is still very consistent its just not as strong as the other two currently viable rotoms because of how common seismitoad is. Rotom fits the B+ mons simply because it requires far more support then it did prior to seismitoad being everywhere. Thats not a C rank mon which means you think rotom wash is extremely niche, which it isnt.

While i personally have yet to actually test said Hex+nasty plot washtom (due to being busy) i plan on testing it out for myself and seeing with my own two eyes if it actually helps rotoms case somewhat (though i honestly doubt that my stance on rotom-wash dropping to B+ rank will change).

The point i'm trying to make is that making a outrageous drop for a mon thats currently A- rank is very very wrong. If rotom-W continues to get worse in the meta it should drop even further but dropping it several sub-ranks at once is going too far.
 

Jordy

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I'd like to remind everyone to post with some etiquette. We do not care about your beef with someone; keep it between you two. This most definitely isn't the thread to attempt justifying bad play either. Keep it relevant to the viability rankings or risk having your post deleted and infracted.
 
B- ---> A-

I sincerely don't understand why is Gyarados so low, yeah, the dmax ban hurts it badly, but this thing has such absurd coverage this gen with Power Whip, while mantaining its threatening moveset and abilites, that there really is no reason to why Gyarados should be lower than Hawlucha and Rotom-Mow. That's the same as putting Hatterene, Excadrill, or Togekiss on B bc they abused Dynamaxed very well, and now can't abuse it anymore, even tho they're great(Toge should really drop tho lol).

Gyarados didn't rely on Dynamax to be viable, and it can still be a powerful sweeping tool even without the broken mechanics pushing it over the edge.

What are some Gyara hard checks? Correct me if I'm wrong, because i'm not 100% sure on this one, but I can only think of Ferrothorn, Mow, and Avalugg. That's very few for a B- mon, that is also fast and can set up easily in comparison to the usually frail HO sweepers. Gyarados can still hit Mow with Ice Fang and Ferrothron with Flamethrower, and sometimes its worth running niche options for very specific threats such as these two.

B--->C

Without Dynamax and without Eletric Terrain Hawlucha is just one of the most underwhelming pokemon to be considered viable in ou rn, 95 atk isn't a good stat, but its usable if you can get free boost with Max Knucle or a free SD after getting in on Electric Terrain. But needing to use Power or White Herb to activate Unburden, to just after that get your boosts is too slow for poor Lucha, boostless Hawlucha is terrible, and if you dont get boosts within 2 turns, then you're just dying before doing anything.

&
---> C+ and UR

I don't know exactly where I'd put them, but they should definetely drop, I'm a huge Jellicent fan but once Darm got banned it really started being outshined by Toad and Vaporeon as Vish checks. Jellicent still has a niche in more defensive teams that appreciate can afford to lose Seismitoad's utility and Vaporeon's Wish Passing for Jelli's additional recovery. So it shouldn't drop much(C+ for male Jelli and UR for female bc that mon is beyond ugly).

Milotic on the other hand has no redeeming attributes to be picked over other bulky waters, it looks just like a discount Pex, with worse Bulk and Worse Abilities, it also doesn't have Water Absorb so it can't compete with the Vish checks, and even if it did get Absorb, Milotic would still be unviable because it adds nothing new to the table and lacks an aspect of it that makes it better than other Water Absorbers, Milotic is outclassed by every other bulky water viable in this tier.

---> B+

Toxtricity has insane damage output, few checks, and decent bulk for such a powerful breaker, it takes advantadge of fairies and Corviknight to get in(this mon shets on Corviknight so hard it's incredible). If you manage to throw off a hit with this mon(which can be hard because of its speed and bulk, which is only useful against resists) you're guaranteed to do damage. Sadly every move on its moveset has an immunity, which allows the opponent to pivot around somewhat easily, but with good plays, Toxtricity can become a real threat. Worthy of B+.

I'm not sure how popular this opinion is, but I do think that there should be no S rank. With Galarian Darm, it made sense because that obviously was far above everything else. However, with that being gone, I don't think it makes sense to have an S rank. There are many great pokemon and huge threats in this meta, but I feel like nothing (including corviknight) stands above everything else. I don't even think corviknight, which is the sole mon in s tier right now, is the best mon in the tier, because I think clefable is. Speaking of which...
Although I think that Corviknight might be the best Pokemon in the tier, I do agree that it isn't above everything else, VR without S rank seems weird, but in my opinion S rank should be reserved for completely metagame warping pokemon that are clearly stronger than the other ones on lower rankings, Vish is the most influential and centralising mon in the tier imo, but I think that mon is pretty bad overprepared for, making it useless in most matchups where the opponent has a Water Absorber, so S rank isn't deserved. Clef is nuts too, and def the closest thing to S rank after Corviknight, but I feel like Rotom-H is just too popular for it to be on the top like that. So I'd say to keep the S rank empty for a while before we discover what are the best mons of SwSh. But if S remains, than I totally agree with Clef rising too.
 
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Gary

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Hello it is I, OUTL Finchinator. I just wanted to inform you that on Wednesday at 5:11 PM I made a post stating that the VR should expect an update early next week. I just wanted to remind you that this is still true in case you forgot to read my recent post. I am posting this because I can and because my name is Finchinator. In case you haven't noticed, my badges scroll, and I currently have the highest amount of likes on Smogon. Now I would like you to please like this post in order for my pee pee to increase in size, or else I will post again in no less than 24 hours reminding you that on Saturday at 12:40 AM I made a post stating that the VR should still be expecting an update early next week.

Oh on another note, the first official analysis is finally up. Just like the previous gen we will hyperlink all the analysis onto the Pokemon once each of them are finished. Rotom-H is the first one, written by a very handsome man.

Yo but for real Finchinator am I doing this right?
 

Finchinator

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OU & NU Leader
Hello everyone, the results from the first slate are up.

The following things were voted on:
Nomination
ClefableA+ to S
DragapultA, A+, or S
MandibuzzA+ to A
Rotom-HeatA+ to A
Aegislash A to A+
DracovishA to A-
DugtrioA to A-
HydreigonA to A+
ConkeldurrA- to A
DittoA-, B+, B, or B-
HattereneA- to B+
TyranitarA- to B+
CinderaceA-, B+, or B
GengarA, A-, or B+
TogekissA-, B+, B, or B-
Rotom-MowB+ to A-
Kommo-OB+ to A-
DracozoltB+ to B
BisharpB-, B, B+, or A-
GrimmsnarlB to B+
SylveonB to B+
JellicentB, B-, or C+
ObstagoonB to B+
MamoswineB- to B
MiloticB- to C+
PelipperB, B-, C+, or C
AvaluggC+, C, C-, or UR
BarraskewdaB-, C+, or C
FlareonC+ to C
MimikyuC+ to B-
SnorlaxC+ to B-
VaporeonC+, C, or C-
XatuC+ to B-
CrawdauntC, C+, B-, or B
RibombeeC to C+
DurantC, C-, or UR
FlygonC- to UR
HaxorusC, C-, or UR
PolteageistC- to UR
Rotom-WashA- to B+, B, or B-
HelioliskUR to C-
ArcanineUR, C-, or C
RoseradeUR to C-
VanilluxeUR, C-, or C
ShedinjaUR, C-, or C
BewearUR to C-
AccelgorUR to C-
AraquanidUR, C-, or C
CloysterUR, C-, C, C+, or B-
Sirfetch'dUR to TBD

After the OU VR Council both voted on and discussed all of these Pokemon, the following changes will be made to the OU VR:

Rises
  • from A+ to S: Clefable has been a metagame staple for the entire generation thus far. While initially it was voted to be just short of S rank, it is now clearly S rank. Not only is the classic LO set that started off being very common still strong, but also SDef Wish Clefable has been very common. In SPL week 1, we saw Clefable more than any other Pokemon and on far more teams than not. It should be no surprise that Clefable is S rank because of this, its overall defensive merit, and the utility it presents teams on a variety of fronts (Wish, status absorption, etc.)
  • from A to A+: Aegislash started off slowly, but within weeks of the metagame forming people noticed that both Choice Specs and Choice Band variants of Aegislash are potent threats. Recently Aegislash has been tearing up the metagame, posing a massive threat and having a limited number of checks and counters. Versatility coupled with strong attacking and special attacking prowess allows for Aegislash to be one of the best Pokemon in the metagame and find itself up in A+ rank.
  • from A to A+: Hydreigon has been a great Pokemon since day 1, but it has not lost steam at all while also adding a Nasty Plot + 3 attacks with Draco Meteor variant to the mix after Dynamax being banned minimized Ditto usage. Hydreigon is able to make progress in almost any game and is very hard to counter. In addition to this, it is one of the better Choice Scarf users in the metagame right now and this cannot be dismissed either. The three-headed Dragon improved across the board and moving it up to A+ reflects this.
  • from A- to A: Conkeldurr is a fantastic breaker. While poor speed and low base defenses may hold it back, it is still able to tank hits thanks to high HP and it is able to outrun most defensive options due to investing heavily in speed. Overall, Conkeldurr has established itself as a common breaking option with Flame Orb + Guts, having very few counters in the metagame.
  • from B+ to A: Gengar was probably ranked a little too low to begin with, but regardless it is rightfully moving all the way up to A now. The Choice Specs variant is devestating; it is fast and strong with spammable STABs and the ability to cripple foes with Trick. Couple this with Pursuit no longer existing and the fact that common answers to Chansey either do not exist or are not common in the current metagame and you get the ideal metagame for Specs Gengar to thrive, prompting increased usage and an A ranking.
  • from B+ to A-: While not quite as prevalent as Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Mow has established itself as a legitimate threat with the Substitute + Nasty Plot set. It takes advantage of common bulkier presences like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, setting up in their face and proceeding to unleash strong, boosted attacks. It is a far cry from being top tier still, but Rotom-Mow is solid enough to land in A-.
  • from B+ to A-: Kommo-O has broken out as a great Stealth Rock setter and a niche set-up sweeper. Body Press allows for the former to pack a punch while matching up nicely against both common Defog users and the most common Rapid Spinner. Moreover, set-up options such as Belly Drum allow for Kommo-O to pose a potent threat in a pinch, putting it on par with many other A- threats.
  • from B to B+: Sylveon is a step-down from Clefable in most regards; it is not able to absorb status and it takes hazard damage for starters. On the other hand, it has better special bulk and does more damage off-the-bat, so there are lots of scenarios in which Sylveon is worth using and that has been shown throughout SPL week 1.
  • from B to B+: Obstagoon has quietly gained traction in recent weeks. At first, it was a cool new toy that did not seem to have much staying power, especially with other strong breakers like Conkeldurr seeming to be generally superior. However, now it appears that while Obstagoon is not a staple, it does have a noteworthy niche and it has a lot going for it -- certainly enough to hang around and warrant a B+ ranking for the time being.
  • from B- to B: Mamoswine remains a fringe pick in OU, much like every other generation. While it is not the strongest pick right now, Mamoswine has a great dual STAB and is plenty strong. It can be challenging to switch in to and it is able to get in a couple times most games, making it a very viable option in B.
  • from C+ to B-: Snorlax is a nice bulky win condition with Curse + Rest. While it is incapable of sweeping a lot of teams outright, it can do well with support and some teams lack the tools to break it after a Curse boost, which makes it a devastating Pokemon in those games.
  • from C+ to B-: Xatu got Teleport, which is a very intriguing new toy, and there is a general lack of quality hazard removal/deterrents in the current metagame, so it has a clear niche.
  • from C to B-: Crawdaunt initially was seen as inferior to Dracovish, but with it falling in popularity and people recognizing how potent an offensive presence Crawdaunt had, it gained some traction. Now it is still a fringe pick, but Crawdaunt retains some viability, much like the past few generations.
  • from C- to C: Haxorus is a pretty uncommon Pokemon, but when it is used it proves to be an absolute monster. It stood out a little in the depths of C-, so it got bumped up to C rank for the time being.
Newly Ranked Pokemon
  • from UR to C-: Arcanine has a nice niche as a Fairy resist with Intimidate, some nice utility and offensive options, and the ability to take advantage of Heavy Duty Boots. It will never be close to a top tier threat, but fringe viability is all it takes to crack the lower parts of the viability rankings.
  • from UR to C-: Shedinja clings on to a little viability thanks to its unique ability, which is especially relevant here with the lack of Toxic distribution in the current metagame.
  • from UR to C-: Araquanid has a niche setting up Sticky Webs with a bit more of a balanced, long-term approach than Ribombee.
  • from UR to C+: Cloyster clicks Shell Smash and then either flinches through your check or dies pretty quickly. That's all there is to it. Nothing else to see here.
  • from UR to C: Sirfetch'd is apparently a bit more than just a meme. It packs a punch that is pretty hard to keep in check thanks to Scrappy and respectable complimentary coverage.
Drops
  • from A+ to A: Mandibuzz is one of two Defog users that have risen to prominence in the current metagame. While Corviknight is seen as a little better overall, Mandibuzz is still able to resist Ghost types and check a plethora of common Pokemon while rocking the Heavy Duty Boots. With this said, it is not quite as strong as initially imagined and despite being a great addition to most teams, it is a bit limited in the archetypes it can use and other Dark types like Hydreigon make using it on a lot of teams a bit awkward. Therefore, it has settled into A, which is still a very respectable ranking.
  • from A to A-: Dracovish was initially seen as an OHKO machine with Fisheous Rend; now it is regarded as a pretty inconsistent pick that has a high ceiling. Unfortunately, the rise of Seismitoad coupled with Ferrothorn and Toxapex running PDef EVs more often than not stifles the threat of Dracovish in most games. Because of this, it dropped a subrank.
  • from A- to B: Ditto took a big hit with Dynamax going. It now has a lot less niche and consistency. It is still viable, but the drop reflected how much we believe it really fell off since the Darmanitan ban, which was already further down than it would have been during the Dynamax metagame.
  • from A- to B: Rotom-Wash struggles with Seismitoad, has a lot of potential usage taken away by Rotom-Heat and the recently surging Rotom-Mow, and struggles to carve out a specific niche to warrant changing up team structures to integrate it as the primary Water type and finding another way to take advantage of normal countermeasures to it. It has fallen off and dropped a fair amount because of this.
  • from A- to B+: The irksome Hat has taken a hit in popularity. Perhaps new toy syndrome led to some popularity and it finally wore off, but this is not a big drop as it is still a threat with a great ability.
  • from A- to B+: Tyranitar will always be a great, OU caliber Pokemon. With that siad, losing Pursuit has not helped it and a lot of strong threats in the current metagame are bale to make quick work of the tyrant ran the OU metagame of prior generations.
  • from B+ to B: Dracozolt will continue to hit hard with Bolt Beak, but it is hard to get in, trappable, and not the fastest threat. Unfortunately, a lot of other Pokemon are in the spotlight right now, making it hard to use, especially with Rotom forms being far more common as Electric types.
  • from B to C+: It is no shock that Jellicent fell off a bit after G-Darmanitan got banned. It was just a matter of how much -- two sub-ranks it is. Jellicent still is a nice utility pick with a niche on balance teams, but it has seen better days and does not standout too much right now, causing it to reside in C+ instead of in the middle of the B ranks.
  • from B- to C+: Similarly to Jellicent, Milotic took a hit with G-Darmanitan getting the boot. It may still have a niche, but it is not nearly as purposeful now and dropped as a reflection of that.
  • from B- to C+: People are finally starting to notice that Rain is pretty mediocre right now and seeing as Pelipper is a staple on these Rain teams, being the Rain setter, it is no surprise that it dropped a little to show that.
  • from C+ to C: Avalugg dropping is another byproduct of the tactical gorilla getting struck by the banhammer. It may still be usable with Rapid Spin, Heavy Duty Boots, and plenty of physical defense, but it is far from common and there are not many signs of this changing anytime soon.
  • from C+ to C: Barraskewda's dropping a little is another result of Rain falling in usage and effectiveness a bit.
  • from C+ to C: Flareon was a great answer to LO Clefable and it was a bit less passive than most Wish passers, but now it is less practical due to LO Clefable dropping off a bit and the metagame preferring other Fire types, making it hard to fit onto most team structures.
  • from C+ to C: Much like Flareon, Vaporeon was able to check a prominent Pokemon and because of that it had a respectable niche. In Vaporeon's case, it was G-Darmanitan, which is now banned and because of that Vaporeon fell off a bit.
Newly Unranked Pokemon
  • from C- to UR: Flygon was apparently used as a Choice Scarfer earlier on, but there has been virtually no usage of it in recent weeks and it was never really convincingly ranked to begin with. It was voted to go UR unanimously, so off it goes to the realm of irrelevance.
---

Thanks again to everyone for posting nominations, their thoughts, and so much more! We were able to address dozens of different posts made throughout our voting and discussion; hopefully this was reflected in the slate and changes in rankings that it prompted. I am going to open this up again now, so feel free to post about new nominations so long as you follow the forum rules. Posts questioning the slate should not be posted here as these will be regarded as off-topic seeing as they are not nominations or discussion of previously made nominations.
 
A->A+
Define the whole meta into a sneeze fest or HO clicking , dumb , aids and ban worthy it was also shown in Spl week 1 prepared team if played a bit around still get their ass spanked at a point where not bringing this mon in (spl) can be considered chocking .

B -> C+
Slow , frail , easily walled , breaking ability took a punch from Punk rock changed to 1.3 from 1.5 , do I have to mention Arena trap ?
 
A->A+
Define the whole meta into a sneeze fest or HO clicking , dumb , aids and ban worthy it was also shown in Spl week 1 prepared team if played a bit around still get their ass spanked at a point where not bringing this mon in (spl) can be considered chocking .

B -> C+
Slow , frail , easily walled , breaking ability took a punch from Punk rock changed to 1.3 from 1.5 , do I have to mention Arena trap ?
Dugtrio is still rather weak and while it excels against offense it struggles quite a bit against balance as staples such as Clefable and Toad and Corv are quite impervious to it. I'm on the fence but leaning for it to stay in A.
I believe Tox is sorely underrated rn, literally nothing resists all of its moves on specs bar Ferrothorn, which you can Volt Switch out. Even Ferrothorn has to watch out for Shift Gear, so Tox is a really a pain for balance to deal with (it has to be brought in w/ turn or vswitch, that being said).
 
A->A+
Define the whole meta into a sneeze fest or HO clicking , dumb , aids and ban worthy it was also shown in Spl week 1 prepared team if played a bit around still get their ass spanked at a point where not bringing this mon in (spl) can be considered chocking .

B -> C+
Slow , frail , easily walled , breaking ability took a punch from Punk rock changed to 1.3 from 1.5 , do I have to mention Arena trap ?
idk how but I disagree with both of these.



ANYWAY.. id argue that toxtricity is too low. Toxtricity is definitely A- material and is neither easily walled nor affected that much by the 1.3 -> 1.5 change. arena trap is a problem but only if they catch it at not +2 or predict. but then again arena trap is a broken mechanic in the first place so really like....
anyway, the shift gear sets ar pretty amazing despite people running the bad set of volt switch, and you can even run fire punch with shift gear, if you really hate ferro lol. overall pretty amazing dude
 
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Ruft

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Dugtrio is still rather weak and while it excels against offense it struggles quite a bit against balance as staples such as Clefable and Toad and Corv are quite impervious to it. I'm on the fence but leaning for it to stay in A.
That's not quite right. Dugtrio is good right now because its Choice Band set actually allows it to trap and beat Clefable 1v1 while also being able to finish off a weakened Seismitoad, among other things.

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio: 130-154 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 177-208 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
idk how but I disagree with both of these.

I’m calling for dugtrio's ban honestly, fuck this nudge until S+ mess. We all know damn well it's absolutely unhealthy and broken yet we play this bullshit game of is it broken or not every generation knowing full damn well that it is; it's a broken mechanic. You even had people running the prevo and trapinch for god's sack like come on, stop the bullshit lol . I do not give a flying shit if it's SPL lmao doesn't mean shit to me, these folks can make teams without it.

ANYWAY.. id argue that toxtricity is too low. Toxtricity is definitely A- material and is neither easily walled nor affected that much by the 1.3 -> 1.5 change. arena trap is a problem but only if they catch it at not +2 or predict. but then again arena trap is a broken mechanic in the first play so really like....
anyway, the shift gear sets ar pretty amazing despite people running the bad set of volt switch, and you can even run fire punch with shift gear, if you really hate ferro lol. overall pretty amazing dude
1.3 Change makes boomburst misses crucial ohko on stuff like seismi , running firepunch over snarl on the shiftgear set is synonym to get rk by Dpult , even tho Bulletproof Kommo-o is usually better soundproof is still a thing . Top ladder is full of clicking and that shit is close to be a sac than anything else in those games and holy cow with how viable ground ghost steel type + protect anyone with a pair of hands can reliably play around it and you know what ? A R E N A T R A P a lot for A- ( and we both know the council got more important stuff to do right now (lul) over banning that shit mon )
 
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:seismitoad: I feel like Seismitoad should drop to A rank. Yes, it's extremely splashable, and still a great SR setter and solid catch-all check to things, but I often find it underwhelming when it comes to taking stuff on defensively. It does wall Dracovish, but Dracovish isn't actually that common and still struggles against Pex and Ferro, so the idea that it's mandatory to run if you don't want to lose to Dracovish doesn't hold up that well in practice.

As for everything else, it just... doesn't convincingly wall as much as it wants due to its lack of recovery and bulk that is still good but not Hippowdon-level. A lot of physical threats such as Excadrill and Bisharp that it wishes it could deal with can break past it with little difficulty. And it's also vulnerable to a bunch of the metagame's strongest threats: Corviknight, Clefable, Hydreigon and Dragapult, arguably the 4 strongest Pokemon in the tier right now, all eat it for breakfast.

The SPL matches we've seen so far have shown us many teams with Seismitoed, but alongside that, a rather high tendency for it to underperform. As such, I feel like it doesn't deserve to be ranked alongside more reliable and consistent threats such as Toxapex and Dragapult. (I also find it to be worse than Ferrothorn but Ferrothorn moving up is a whole other discussion)
 
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I think that dugtrio is needed to keep clefable in check in the current meta, it's quite balanced this way. I expressed my disliking for dug in the past but I don't think it's necessarily ban-material right now. After all, if we look at past gens, dugtrio is still unbanned which means trap arena is not deemed uncompetitive per se, it's just a combination of other factors that makes it uncompetitive. I don't believe that's the case right now, I also find dugtrio to require skill since it's a pretty frail pokemon that most of the time will trade itself for a threat and can trap a handful of things, not every mon bar ghosts.

But since this is a VR topic, I also agree with Dugtrio to join the A+ ranks, he's incredibly useful and it's one of the few things that can help against this clefable-spamming we are experiencing right now.
 
I think that dugtrio is needed to keep clefable in check in the current meta, it's quite balanced this way.
broken checks broken is not an argument accepted by Smogon policy.
If Clefable or anything else is a problem without duggy, we'll just ban that too.
After all, if we look at past gens, dugtrio is still unbanned which means trap arena is not deemed uncompetitive per se, it's just a combination of other factors that makes it uncompetitive.
Every gen past Gen 4 has banned Arena Trap (including BW recently).
https://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/dugtrio/
https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/dugtrio/
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/dugtrio/
So in other words, Arena Trap is banned in every last Gen since Team Preview was a thing. Every gen since Ferrothorn was a thing. Every gen... Do I have to go on?
I also find dugtrio to require skill
I'm pretty sure using Mewtwo in RBY against an opponent prepared for it required skill and careful use of Rest. This does not balance anything.
it's a pretty frail pokemon that most of the time will trade itself for a threat and can trap a handful of things, not every mon bar ghosts.
Replay from SPL of a Dugtrio getting 6 kills in one match, including 2 ghosts, a Flying mon and a Levitator:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471196
Oh, and agree Dugtrio needs to move up to at least A+. Possibly S.
:seismitoad: I feel like Seismitoad should drop to A rank. Yes, it's extremely splashable, and still a great SR setter and solid catch-all check to things, but I often find it underwhelming when it comes to tanking stuff on defensively. It does wall Dracovish, but Dracovish isn't actually that common and still struggles against Pex and Ferro, so the idea that it's mandatory to run if you don't want to lose to Dracovish doesn't hold up that well in practice.

As for everything else, it just... doesn't convincingly wall as much as it wants due to its lack of recovery and bulk that is still good but not Hippowdon-level. A lot of physical threats such as Excadrill and Bisharp that it wishes it could deal with can break past it with little difficulty. And it's also vulnerable to a bunch of the metagame's strongest threats: Corviknight, Clefable, Hydreigon and Dragapult, arguably the 4 strongest Pokemon in the tier right now, all eat it for breakfast.

The SPL matches we've seen so far have shown us many teams with Seismitoed, but alongside that, a rather high tendency for it to underperform. As such, I feel like it doesn't deserve to be ranked alongside more reliable and consistent threats such as Toxapex and Dragapult. (I also find it to be worse than Ferrothorn but Ferrothorn moving up is a whole other discussion)
I personally think this is why Vish needs a suspect soon. Toad is getting found out, and he's dead weight unless your opponent brings Vish. But if your opponent does bring Vish you need Toad to reliably check him. Pex and Ferro don't check Vish. They take way too much damage from Rend, and don't really threaten it back either outside of Iron Barbing it to death (and even then, Ferro's best recovery option is still Leech Seed so it can be worn down) or PP stalling it by using all your Recovers (and Vish hurts Pex hard with Psychic Fangs so you best hope he did click Rend).
Anyway, echo this, Toad is garbage unless your opponent brings Vish, down to A for now.
See also the above replay where both players bring Toad and it's dead weight on both teams.
 
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Leo

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Hey, reminder that this isn’t the place to call for suspect tests or bans of any kind. I have taken the liberty to edit a few posts to stop the discussion from shifting to wether or not Dugtrio should be banned but from now on I will be deleting and infracting any posts I see about the topic. Thats all, have a good one
 
broken checks broken is not an argument accepted by Smogon policy.
If Clefable or anything else is a problem without duggy, we'll just ban that too.

Every gen past Gen 4 has banned Arena Trap (including BW recently).
https://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/dugtrio/
https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/dugtrio/
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/dugtrio/
So in other words, Arena Trap is banned in every last Gen since Team Preview was a thing. Every gen since Ferrothorn was a thing. Every gen... Do I have to go on?

I'm pretty sure using Mewtwo in RBY against an opponent prepared for it required skill and careful use of Rest. This does not balance anything.

Replay from SPL of a Dugtrio getting 6 kills in one match, including 2 ghosts, a Flying mon and a Levitator:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471196
Oh, and agree Dugtrio needs to move up to at least A+. Possibly S.

I personally think this is why Vish needs a suspect soon. Toad is getting found out, and he's dead weight unless your opponent brings Vish. But if your opponent does bring Vish you need Toad to reliably check him. Pex and Ferro don't check Vish. They take way too much damage from Rend, and don't really threaten it back either outside of Iron Barbing it to death (and even then, Ferro's best recovery option is still Leech Seed so it can be worn down) or PP stalling it by using all your Recovers (and Vish hurts Pex hard with Psychic Fangs so you best hope he did click Rend).
Anyway, echo this, Toad is garbage unless your opponent brings Vish, down to A for now.
See also the above replay where both players bring Toad and it's dead weight on both teams.
I don’t know... I don’t think DV is at that point yet. Not to mention we’re getting a TON of previous gen behemoths. This also means we have a fairly reliable check for Lando-T. I’d say it should be in Uber’s til lando and the others come back, but that’s about it. In fact, scratch that, it shouldn’t. It still isn’t too overpowered
 
Pokemon I think are currently underrated on the vr:

: Should be A+, is unarguably one of the best supporters in the tier, helping threats such as cinderace, lo clef, dragapult run through teams. Also acts as decent speed control and can check a few potent threats. On top of that exudes a good amount of centralising pressure on the metagame, not yet dracovish level but definitely noteworthy. With well thought out team-building also has the added bonus of enabling some very overpowered strats., probably most banworthy pokemon in the tier if there was one, must be at least worthy of A+.

: Big-ass threat, very chippable counters, excels in slow meta which is what we have for the most part, wouldn't be surprised at all to see this thing's usage increase in spl and eventually go up on the VR, I think it's heavily underrated atm.

: Specs Weatherball, good typing, few checks, basically no counters, bring it back up a bit please.

: It's a bigger threat than what you make it out to be. There are not many pokemon who can beat it through a single flinch (which is 40%), it's not amazing but it's better than C+ I think, pretty common on ladder, breaks through common cores pretty easily.

: Disgusting mon... disgusting, you seen the new steel-wing life orb set on ladder? S-tier for sure imo, so versatile, so fast, speed control without scarf, maybe best mon in the tier right now.

: Looking like a very useful mon atm, but I'm not so sure about this one as I haven't used it much. Just note: immunity to shadowball, great defensive typing, strong body press, good stealth-rocker, varied threatening sweeper sets: clangorous, SD, Belly Drum. Watch this space.

: Versatile, best suicide hazards lead but can also sweep on both sides, each individual set is not that threatening but who do you switch to once it nasty-plots in to a non counter since it has decent bulk as well. If you think HO sucks then sure it's C tier worthy but I think it might be a little better.

Some I think might be a little overrated:

: Has more competition than it did previously, people are abusing it with prep in some cases due to its prevalence, people are breaking out of team-building vices now that vish dropped off a bit, was extremely anti-meta a couple weeks ago but there are enough alternatives now and it's enough "meh" in other respects for it to drop a mini-tier imo.

: Looks a bit out of place in A- rank, no-where near as meta defining as vish, no where near as anti-meta as kommo and rotom-mow, supports drill but shares typing and weaknesses, maybe supports a couple rocks too but then you're compiling weaknesses further. I'll admit I'm mostly basing this on the impact *i've* seen it have on the meta, not any deep consideration of its strength.

: Very meh mon imo which can't beat corviknight, does have knock-off which is big plus but I could see it dropping.

: Way worse than the other fairies in its tier, hazards aren't very meta defining atm, should be B imo.

: I'm torn cause it's such a good mon intrinsically but... corv is on every team, idk probably deserves to stay but I could see corvi forcing it out.
 
Pokemon I think are currently underrated on the vr:

: Should be A+, is unarguably one of the best supporters in the tier, helping threats such as cinderace, lo clef, dragapult run through teams. Also acts as decent speed control and can check a few potent threats. On top of that exudes a good amount of centralising pressure on the metagame, not yet dracovish level but definitely noteworthy. With well thought out team-building also has the added bonus of enabling some very overpowered strats., probably most banworthy pokemon in the tier if there was one, must be at least worthy of A+.

: Big-ass threat, very chippable counters, excels in slow meta which is what we have for the most part, wouldn't be surprised at all to see this thing's usage increase in spl and eventually go up on the VR, I think it's heavily underrated atm.

: Specs Weatherball, good typing, few checks, basically no counters, bring it back up a bit please.

: It's a bigger threat than what you make it out to be. There are not many pokemon who can beat it through a single flinch (which is 40%), it's not amazing but it's better than C+ I think, pretty common on ladder, breaks through common cores pretty easily.

: Disgusting mon... disgusting, you seen the new steel-wing life orb set on ladder? S-tier for sure imo, so versatile, so fast, speed control without scarf, maybe best mon in the tier right now.

: Looking like a very useful mon atm, but I'm not so sure about this one as I haven't used it much. Just note: immunity to shadowball, great defensive typing, strong body press, good stealth-rocker, varied threatening sweeper sets: clangorous, SD, Belly Drum. Watch this space.

: Versatile, best suicide hazards lead but can also sweep on both sides, each individual set is not that threatening but who do you switch to once it nasty-plots in to a non counter since it has decent bulk as well. If you think HO sucks then sure it's C tier worthy but I think it might be a little better.

Some I think might be a little overrated:

: Has more competition than it did previously, people are abusing it with prep in some cases due to its prevalence, people are breaking out of team-building vices now that vish dropped off a bit, was extremely anti-meta a couple weeks ago but there are enough alternatives now and it's enough "meh" in other respects for it to drop a mini-tier imo.

: Looks a bit out of place in A- rank, no-where near as meta defining as vish, no where near as anti-meta as kommo and rotom-mow, supports drill but shares typing and weaknesses, maybe supports a couple rocks too but then you're compiling weaknesses further. I'll admit I'm mostly basing this on the impact *i've* seen it have on the meta, not any deep consideration of its strength.

: Very meh mon imo which can't beat corviknight, does have knock-off which is big plus but I could see it dropping.

: Way worse than the other fairies in its tier, hazards aren't very meta defining atm, should be B imo.

: I'm torn cause it's such a good mon intrinsically but... corv is on every team, idk probably deserves to stay but I could see corvi forcing it out.
I'm not sure why people in this thread has such a hard-on for Cloyster but please stop. C+ is fine for it, and shouldn't be higher. It's a niche sweeper with flinch chance if holding King's Rock to get through its checks. Sounds great on paper, but in practice it is not as great as you clowns make it out to be. It's pretty weak on its own, and is extremely matchup dependent to even be remotely useful. Onto some next stuff I couldn't help but comment on, Hippowdon being out of place in A- is a joke. Hippowdon has often been one of those overlooked Pokemon but it provides a ton of utility while also being able to check a large amount of threats like Aegislash, and Excadrill. Also with Tyranitar not being as dominant as before, some teams even opt for Hippowdon for sand support with Excadrill, which leads into my next topic of Excadrill being overrated. This Pokemon is insanely good and its the sole rapid spinner of the tier. While that's not where its niche lies, having that role uncontested is huge. SD Excadrill is such a huge threat whether it would be in Sand or not (Not to mention Rapid Spin giving +1 Speed now making Excadrill an even more threatening win condition). While Corviknight is a threat yes, Excadrill being as great as it forces Corviknight to use Body Press to be able to beat it, if it doesn't its a free set up turn for Excadrill and SD, which is exactly why I think Excadrill is fine where it is at, if it has to force a meta defining Pokemon such as Corviknight to use a move to be able to beat it then just the presence of this Pokemon in the meta is great. Lastly, Obstagoon is one of the best wallbreakers available at the moment which warrants its rise to B+. Not only with its great coverage and sheer power, there really isn't much that switches into it. While it may not beat Corviknight straight up in a 1v1 (which a lot of Pokemon cannot do that one flaw doesn't define their entire viability), it can easily be pressured with chip damage throughout the game, Knocking Off its Leftovers, and with the move Obstruct. This move literally prevents Corviknight from touching it as Corviknight gets forced out the very next turn if they happen to try to U-turn to gain momentum, or flat out try to kill with Body Press. While you think these Pokemon are overrated, I think you're completely underrating these mons in terms of what they actually do in the meta and how they effect the Pokemon around them and what they bring to the table.

there's other shit i'd talk about but I really don't have much experience with mons like togekiss, mew, or hatterene to really speak on them.
 
I'm not sure why people in this thread has such a hard-on for Cloyster but please stop. C+ is fine for it, and shouldn't be higher. It's a niche sweeper with flinch chance if holding King's Rock to get through its checks. Sounds great on paper, but in practice it is not as great as you clowns make it out to be. It's pretty weak on its own, and is extremely matchup dependent to even be remotely useful. Onto some next stuff I couldn't help but comment on, Hippowdon being out of place in A- is a joke. Hippowdon has often been one of those overlooked Pokemon but it provides a ton of utility while also being able to check a large amount of threats like Aegislash, and Excadrill. Also with Tyranitar not being as dominant as before, some teams even opt for Hippowdon for sand support with Excadrill, which leads into my next topic of Excadrill being overrated. This Pokemon is insanely good and its the sole rapid spinner of the tier. While that's not where its niche lies, having that role uncontested is huge. SD Excadrill is such a huge threat whether it would be in Sand or not (Not to mention Rapid Spin giving +1 Speed now making Excadrill an even more threatening win condition). While Corviknight is a threat yes, Excadrill being as great as it forces Corviknight to use Body Press to be able to beat it, if it doesn't its a free set up turn for Excadrill and SD, which is exactly why I think Excadrill is fine where it is at, if it has to force a meta defining Pokemon such as Corviknight to use a move to be able to beat it then just the presence of this Pokemon in the meta is great. Lastly, Obstagoon is one of the best wallbreakers available at the moment which warrants its rise to B+. Not only with its great coverage and sheer power, there really isn't much that switches into it. While it may not beat Corviknight straight up in a 1v1 (which a lot of Pokemon cannot do that one flaw doesn't define their entire viability), it can easily be pressured with chip damage throughout the game, Knocking Off its Leftovers, and with the move Obstruct. This move literally prevents Corviknight from touching it as Corviknight gets forced out the very next turn if they happen to try to U-turn to gain momentum, or flat out try to kill with Body Press. While you think these Pokemon are overrated, I think you're completely underrating these mons in terms of what they actually do in the meta and how they effect the Pokemon around them and what they bring to the table.

there's other shit i'd talk about but I really don't have much experience with mons like togekiss, mew, or hatterene to really speak on them.
I'm not saying Cloyster is amazing, I'm saying it's a bigger threat than C+, it's a good offensive check to scarf dracovish which is quite strong vs offence, beats common cores such as Corviknight, Seismitoad, Clefable/Sylv, has ice shard for faster dragons etc. The flinch chance is added bonus to beat checks it shouldn't usually. It can also weaken stuff even if it doesn't sweep which makes it less matchup dependent, example: weakening aegislash for a hawlucha sweep. I think people overrate it too a bit, but not that much.

I'm willing to concede on the Hippowdon + Excadrill issue, but I do want to see that style of team have some success in spl etc. as for me it leaves you quite constrained/under pressure in teambuilding with that combo. (Example, Eo's team in spl vs suapah is pretty vish weak among other things). On the point about excadrill spinning though, yes it is definitely a niche, but generally you'd want this niche on your team if you have hazards of your own you want to keep while spinning the opponent's, but what happens in practise is you spin their rocks as they switch to corviknight then it just defogs anyway. SD Excadrill can definitely be threatening tho I admit, and it checks quite a few things.

Obstagoon might be ok it's just underwhelming whenever I see it, having a mon that can switch in to shadow balls is always nice as well.
 

RottenInfernape

Banned deucer.
: Specs Weatherball, good typing, few checks, basically no counters, bring it back up a bit please.
This is untrue for a few reasons. Leftovers or Damp Rock is preferred on Pelipper as it's only niche is to set up rain. Pelipper has more than just alot of checks, with Thunderbolt being run on Dragapult, the most highly used Pokemon, and Clefable,who recently moved into S tier. Also, with Dracovish dropping, rain has gotten a bit weaker. Also, for its counters, you still have Seismitoad which is not only useful as a Dracovish but offers great utility in teams with Stealth Rock and Toxic, so you only get hit by a Hurricane while getting weakened with Toxic. Also, Hydro Pump > Weather Ball imo.
 
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