Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [See post #321]

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I'm not saying Cloyster is amazing, I'm saying it's a bigger threat than C+, it's a good offensive check to scarf dracovish which is quite strong vs offence, beats common cores such as Corviknight, Seismitoad, Clefable/Sylv, has ice shard for faster dragons etc. The flinch chance is added bonus to beat checks it shouldn't usually. It can also weaken stuff even if it doesn't sweep which makes it less matchup dependent, example: weakening aegislash for a hawlucha sweep. I think people overrate it too a bit, but not that much.
Cloyster:
  • Forces the team to be built around it.
  • Has 1 set, with about 5 viable moves for it.
  • Fits only on HO.
  • Is reliant on a coinflip weighted against it to break its checks which are very common in the meta.
  • Hard loses to priority.
  • Is weak to hazards and has no recovery.
And let's not forget the gluttony of sweepers we have rn. With the meta we have rn and the restrictions Cloyster puts on your own teambuilding, Cloyster would have to be an instant win button to make it out of the C rankings. And 59% of the time it's not.
 
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A to A+
I’m surprised something that has been A+ or even higher in three generations of increasing power creep in A tier after the dexit. I don’t have to explain what it does for the meta, with an increased popularity of Goon and fairies, its ready to prove why it is so good no matter what.

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B+ to B
Cinderace is still good but not B+ good. Loses to common rockers, including the rising Kommo-o so using Court Change vs them is risky. It has a difficult time breaking past balance cores, Heat has more utility and can pivot as well usually being preferred more than Cinder. Not to mention its Duggy food.

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B to B-/C+
In a meta filled with Fairies, Corviknight, and Pex, it has trouble setting up more than ever in the current meta. It def is still good and can sweep teams, but it requires more support nowadays.

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B to B+/A-
Balance is everywhere rn. Soaking Toxic, hazard dmg, and being one of the best defensive wincons rn. It also provides fatter teams with a Conk check. It can either scare off Hydrei and Ttar with Focus Blast, or hit Mandi and Corv hard with Thunder, or laugh at passive mons as it sets up. Clef slowly running defensive sets more often means Reuniclus has one other mon to setup on.

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B to B-
New toy syndrome at its finest. It needs incredible predictions in order to break past defensive cores. But many of its targets have been running Protect more often such as Sylveon, Toad, Clefable, etc. Soundproof Kommo being more common makes its life even worse. It still could break defensive cores if predicted correctly, but its far more difficult this time around.

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B- to B
An immunity to Toxic and hazard damage along with the ability to break past FerroPex and other common defensive cores with its wide movepool. Between CM and Roost Three Attacks, it is an underrated threat vs balance. It has a bit of trouble breaking past Mandibuzz and Sylveon, but Mandi is hit hard with Gleam or Ice Beam and Sylveon loses to CM.

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C- to UR
Now that people are realizing how good Cloyster is as a Shell Smash sweeper, can we please banish this to the shadow realm? There are way better offensive ghosts like Pult and Aegislash. It is even more difficult to sweep with Crawdaunt and Hydreigon being even more common. Realistically, your only gonna be able to come in once and Shell Smash, due to how frail you are. Just use Cloyster HO instead.
 
This is untrue for a few reasons. Leftovers or Damp Rock is preferred on Pelipper as it's only niche is to set up rain. Pelipper has more than just alot of checks, with Thunderbolt being run on Dragapult, the most highly used Pokemon, and Clefable,who recently moved into S tier. Also, with Dracovish dropping, rain has gotten a bit weaker. Also, for its counters, you still have Seismitoad which is not only useful as a Dracovish but offers great utility in teams with Stealth Rock and Toxic, so you only get hit by a Hurricane while getting weakened with Toxic. Also, Hydro Pump > Weather Ball imo.
it's not, specs pelliper on balance and offense teams (thanks to u-turn) its a thing. Strong stab coverage, decent speed to break slow cores and good defensive and offensive type make this a good option in this meta.
 
Pokemon I think are currently underrated on the vr:

: Should be A+, is unarguably one of the best supporters in the tier, helping threats such as cinderace, lo clef, dragapult run through teams. Also acts as decent speed control and can check a few potent threats. On top of that exudes a good amount of centralising pressure on the metagame, not yet dracovish level but definitely noteworthy. With well thought out team-building also has the added bonus of enabling some very overpowered strats., probably most banworthy pokemon in the tier if there was one, must be at least worthy of A+.

: Big-ass threat, very chippable counters, excels in slow meta which is what we have for the most part, wouldn't be surprised at all to see this thing's usage increase in spl and eventually go up on the VR, I think it's heavily underrated atm.

: Specs Weatherball, good typing, few checks, basically no counters, bring it back up a bit please.

: It's a bigger threat than what you make it out to be. There are not many pokemon who can beat it through a single flinch (which is 40%), it's not amazing but it's better than C+ I think, pretty common on ladder, breaks through common cores pretty easily.

: Disgusting mon... disgusting, you seen the new steel-wing life orb set on ladder? S-tier for sure imo, so versatile, so fast, speed control without scarf, maybe best mon in the tier right now.

: Looking like a very useful mon atm, but I'm not so sure about this one as I haven't used it much. Just note: immunity to shadowball, great defensive typing, strong body press, good stealth-rocker, varied threatening sweeper sets: clangorous, SD, Belly Drum. Watch this space.

: Versatile, best suicide hazards lead but can also sweep on both sides, each individual set is not that threatening but who do you switch to once it nasty-plots in to a non counter since it has decent bulk as well. If you think HO sucks then sure it's C tier worthy but I think it might be a little better.

Some I think might be a little overrated:

: Has more competition than it did previously, people are abusing it with prep in some cases due to its prevalence, people are breaking out of team-building vices now that vish dropped off a bit, was extremely anti-meta a couple weeks ago but there are enough alternatives now and it's enough "meh" in other respects for it to drop a mini-tier imo.

: Looks a bit out of place in A- rank, no-where near as meta defining as vish, no where near as anti-meta as kommo and rotom-mow, supports drill but shares typing and weaknesses, maybe supports a couple rocks too but then you're compiling weaknesses further. I'll admit I'm mostly basing this on the impact *i've* seen it have on the meta, not any deep consideration of its strength.

: Very meh mon imo which can't beat corviknight, does have knock-off which is big plus but I could see it dropping.

: Way worse than the other fairies in its tier, hazards aren't very meta defining atm, should be B imo.

: I'm torn cause it's such a good mon intrinsically but... corv is on every team, idk probably deserves to stay but I could see corvi forcing it out.
Dugtrio is piss weak w/out band and w/ band it dies to literally almost anything.
Togekiss isn't the best rn given that heattom is on like every team, Specs Weatherball pelipper isn't even a thing, and rain isn't that good so as said in the slate explanations, it's dropping.
Cloyster rising to B-, I think I can tolerate, that being said, 40% isn't exactly consistent.
I'm also pretty sure Steel Wing Dragapult isn't a real set, dropping it for Phantom Force may be worth it, but then it's walled by Corviknight, which isn't exactly ideal given it's the primary hazard removal.
I did agree w/ Kommo-o rising, but now that it has, I don't think it's worth moving up given Clefable is everywhere.
I also agree w/ Mew rising but as a suicide lead, SR+Spikes on the same mon that can actually afford the move slots is too good rn.
I do also agree w/ Toad dropping, with Vish being like nowhere it's mediocre stats are finally starting to show.
I also think Hippowdown dropping a rank, tbh I haven't seen it anywhere around the ladder, but then I'm only around 1500-1600 so it could be more common up the ladder.
Obstagoon is definitely not meh, it has literally no counters so you have to make the right predict to bring a mon in safely, or U-turn when it comes in. It can actually beat Corv w/ Obstruct or Switcheroo combined w/ Knock Off.
Hatt can reflect stuff other than hazards and I'm on the fence but I think it's fine where it is.
Drill stays, SD Rock Slide tears vs non Body Press.
Edit: Also stop this bullshit about tox dropping it tears balance
 

Hey so I'd just like to say I think the conk bump to A is a little overzealous, I think conk is pretty mediocre right now and is closer to B+ than anything. I've been using him alot and I think the extreme prevalence of teams with ghost+fairy cores makes conk rely too heavily on prediction.

Dragapult+clefable is such a common core and every time I see it I know that conk won't do shit that game, because if I ever guess wrong my conk is dead. If I guess wrong on the pult I get ohko'd after rocks, and if I guess right on the pult I still don't ohko back. If I guess wrong on clef my shit gets rocked by moonblast and I don't even ohko 100% of the time with facade.

Conk is so damn slow that if you ever miss predict you have to immediately switch him back out, so you are constantly taking chip from burn and rocks, meaning you miss out on using your bulk to stomach a hit a lot of the time because you took too much chip. Conk doesn't really have an easy time coming in either since he doesn't have enough bulk to prevent getting 2hkod by any decent hit, and he's so slow that he can't outspeed the next turn.

Most games you use conk you end up coming in once, mispredicting, getting forced out and taking some chip, and then come at some point in to do 70-80 on some neutral wall and get ko'd back. At this point I'm considering running CC over drain punch because drain punch damage is honestly disappointing.

I think conk is obviously still good if built around and the niche as a defogger is kind of neat (a bad set tho because you lose out on facade), but honestly I'd usually rather run a different wallbreaker that isn't dead weight vs most of the common cores in the meta. I haven't used Obstagoon too much but I'd honestly put him above conk, it always feels way more threatening when I face it. It has a way better speed tier and I think knock+facade is way harder to deal with in this meta.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 240-283 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 328-386 (87 - 102.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 198 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 344-405 (90.5 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Edit: Also I disagree with Cinderace falling, I think he's actually pretty good right now. He actually has pretty decent bulk and he has a pretty easy time sweeping with his incredible speed tier and access to sucker. Pyro ball does a lot, he comes in on a lot of the meta (corviknight, fairies, ferro) for free, never takes chip because of boots, and is an all around super annoying pivot. I think his court change gimmick is kinda meh, but the all out attacker set with uturn hjk and sucker is super threatening.
 
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zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

oooh. duggy is cute! ok. I think raising him a tier isn't unwarranted. yes he is piss weak without cb, yes he relies on proper pivoting to be brought in safely on threats you want to trap, but I don't think its fair to deny him an up rank because he does his jobs as he should. his main primary role is to remove mons from opposing teams such that your main sweeper or mon that you wanna set up with can do it's job more easily. if we consider it from that perspective and accompanied with it's showings in SPL, I think it's really really safe to say that as long as duggy is on the opposing team, there is already a pressure to play cautiously around your trappable mons and that in itself is already mind games against your opponent. even if you dont bring it in once against your opponent, the fact that you CAN trap his mons is already giving you a huge advantage in itself.

also, by raising him up a rank, we raise awareness to how important it is for us to prepare and mentally ready ourselves to seeing him more in games and as such, promotes more teams to be built with duggy (and trappers in general) as a threat in mind. since we dont have shadow tag and pursuit anymore, trapping might end up being forgotten during team planning and that's not something that we want to happen as long as the duggy family is still around.
 

Hey so I'd just like to say I think the conk bump to A is a little overzealous, I think conk is pretty mediocre right now and is closer to B+ than anything. I've been using him alot and I think the extreme prevalence of teams with ghost+fairy cores makes conk rely too heavily on prediction.

Dragapult+clefable is such a common core and every time I see it I know that conk won't do shit that game, because if I ever guess wrong my conk is dead. If I guess wrong on the pult I get ohko'd after rocks, and if I guess right on the pult I still don't ohko back. If I guess wrong on clef my shit gets rocked by moonblast and I don't even ohko 100% of the time with facade.

Conk is so damn slow that if you ever miss predict you have to immediately switch him back out, so you are constantly taking chip from burn and rocks, meaning you miss out on using your bulk to stomach a hit a lot of the time because you took too much chip. Conk doesn't really have an easy time coming in either since he doesn't have enough bulk to prevent getting 2hkod by any decent hit, and he's so slow that he can't outspeed the next turn.

Most games you use conk you end up coming in once, mispredicting, getting forced out and taking some chip, and then come at some point in to do 70-80 on some neutral wall and get ko'd back. At this point I'm considering running CC over drain punch because drain punch damage is honestly disappointing.

I think conk is obviously still good if built around and the niche as a defogger is kind of neat (a bad set tho because you lose out on facade), but honestly I'd usually rather run a different wallbreaker that isn't dead weight vs most of the common cores in the meta. I haven't used Obstagoon too much but I'd honestly put him above conk, it always feels way more threatening when I face it. It has a way better speed tier and I think knock+facade is way harder to deal with in this meta.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 240-283 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 328-386 (87 - 102.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 198 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 344-405 (90.5 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Edit: Also I disagree with Cinderace falling, I think he's actually pretty good right now. He actually has pretty decent bulk and he has a pretty easy time sweeping with his incredible speed tier and access to sucker. Pyro ball does a lot, he comes in on a lot of the meta (corviknight, fairies, ferro) for free, never takes chip because of boots, and is an all around super annoying pivot. I think his court change gimmick is kinda meh, but the all out attacker set with uturn hjk and sucker is super threatening.
I don't understand how those calcs represent Conk being mediocre. If anything they show just how destructive it is. 50% to OHKO clefable? Chance to OHKO dragapult after rocks with a non-stab, non-se move? These are exactly the reasons that ppl run conkeldurr. You also say he doesn't have much bulk, but for a wallbreaker I think it's bulk is pretty great. Yeah, you're not living a specs draco meteor, but you shouldn't be swtiching into dragapult or hydreigon anyway. You switch into bulky waters, corviknights that are about to defog or roost, rotoms that are gonna click status.

And Conk isn't even that prediction reliant to do work. If the opp has a ghost type, click EQ. Unless the switchin is immune, something's still taking a very hefty chunk of damage. And if they switch to corviknight or rotom heat or something, you can stay in and click close combat. The prediction game is in the Conk user's favor IMO, because the opponent has to get 2 predictions right to safely get a check in, or they have to eat a big hit.

I think conk is a very nice mon because it threatens to smash corviknight and clefable and it easily takes advantage of toad, pex, vaporeon, rotom. And on top of this it has powerful priority. admittedly conk can have problems with longevity, but wish support is not hard to come by in this meta. And anyway, he's kind of a 'as long as he did his job' mon.
 
Hello, today I will give proposals, I ho
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1579104475870.png B+ to A (both even A+)
I really don't understand why they are so down, I will give my reasons why they deserve to go up
To begin with, I find it equally interesting, Specs Sylveon, is not walled by almost nothing, Weezing Galar (which is not viable), is his only check, Psyshock and even Hyper Voice is 2hko, Ferrothorn, which should withstand all his attacks, dies of a Mystical Fire after rocks, Toxapex is likely to endure with 3HKO, but it is very passive, although the Throat Spray set can be very useful and works, because you do not get stuck in a movement, but you have to spend a turn, but I both like them, it is probably more in HO Spikes + Stealth Rock, but it is personal taste
Now I will be very direct, it seems that the pokemon that sylveon threatens (like Sub Belly Drum Kommo-O or Hydreigon), are seeing more, Substitute Kommo-O seems silly, but I've seen it a bit, Belly Drum + Substitute It can be dangerous, but Sylveon can stop that if it's not Soundproof, Hydreigon looks even more, because Hydreigon is in my opinion, a check from Clefable (which looks pretty), but probably now, I'll be direct and say Sylveon could be A+.

As for Hatterene, this is a simpler case, nothing goes into both sets (if it is CM Bulky when it is boosted and Trick Room either), the only reliable check it has is Corviknight special defense, which evades 2HKO from Mystical Fire from Trick Room Hatterene, but just the issue is that, no one enters, so entering Hatterene is 50/50, because neither Corviknight is completely reliable, 3 Mystical Fire is enough and if there is Trick Room, it means that it does not enter change , because Corviknight does not weaken Hatterene in one hit, Magic Bounce can make it a check for Excadrill Lead or Mew Lead, interesting thing, because they are made to see and it is not weak to taunt !, so it puts TR or CM quietly and basically There are many more reasons to upload it, it is incredible, you should upload up to A or even A+ material


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B+ to B-
My reason for lowering it, is that Tyranitar is having a problem and is that he does not get used to the changes of the metagame, most of his weaknesses (Water, Fairy, Steel, Fighting and Ground), are very common, apart from the pokemon that ''threat'', they always have something for him, for example, Hydreigon, Tyranitar can't evade 2HKO from Hydreigon's Flash Cannon or he can't even avoid OHKO LO Hydreigon Draco Meteor, there are too many pokemon that threaten him and every time there is more, probably lower him until B- it would be a good choice, if the metagame continues like this, I would not be surprised to see it below.

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B to A-
My reason is that it is very strong, few things come into change, +2 Throat Chop cannot be endured by anyone, fairies like Clefable, Hatterene or Sylveon, they eat good damage with Iron Head, have few checks, but the problem What it has, is that Mach Punch Conkeldurr or Umbreon / Mandibuzz Physical Defensive, are very good counters, that's why I don't upload it beyond A-

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B to B+
My reason for uploading it, is basically that in the ladder you are seeing more HO Screens and Grimmsnarl is probably the best support of OU, it also has other very good support attacks such as Taunt, Thunder Wave, etc ... I don't think this mon be so solid, that's why I only upload it to B+, but it is very good at what it does.

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B to B+
Well, it is a good counter of Rotom Heat, Scarf Rotom Wash I have tried it and well, it manages to be a check of Rotom Heat, because it exceeds and achieves OHKO, here the calculations
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 320-380 (132.2 - 157%) - guaranteed OHKO
and this is not my only reason, the second is that it really is a mon with which you can build many teams, BO, Balanced, etc ... its versatility to fit in teams like those, they are my main reason, because it fits you will ask ?, just this reason is related to the above, Rotom Wash is one of the few mons who can enter and hit with a strong Hydro Pump, that is, it is probably not A, but it certainly deserves to be B+

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B to B+
For my B rank it is very low for him, he deserves B + probably, because now there are quite a few pokemon that increase stats and he can also copy moves like Excadrill's Rapid Spin, Ditto works well in most OU teams, his versatility leads me to want upload it to B+

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B+ to A-
Here my reason for uploading it, is that basically this mon has many possibilities to use it, Choice Scarf can be a great set, because it is very fast and is beneficial for its star attack, Air Slash, which paraflinches, there are also many others, Nasty Plot A very good wallbreaker does it, because it increases its special attack by +2 and can carry Ancient Power for Rotom Heat, basically, versatility is again a reason to raise it.

I have no more ideas, but next time I will publish more, see you later.
 
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Cloyster:
  • Forces the team to be built around it.
  • Has 1 set, with about 5 viable moves for it.
  • Fits only on HO.
  • Is reliant on a coinflip weighted against it to break its checks which are very common in the meta.
  • Hard loses to priority.
  • Is weak to hazards and has no recovery.
And let's not forget the gluttony of sweepers we have rn. With the meta we have rn and the restrictions Cloyster puts on your own teambuilding, Cloyster would have to be an instant win button to make it out of the C rankings. And 59% of the time it's not.
I don't think Cloyster should rise either but I will say some of your points are tenuous.

Forces the team to be built around it is the biggest reason I think it's fine where it is but that definitely is deceiving, HO is one of the most viable strategies. 1 set is definitely not a reason to be ranked lower at all, see Ash-Gren.

Teams typically have 1 to 2 counters/checks to Cloyster. Its biggest wall by far is Pex followed by something like Corsola-G, Jellicent, Rotom-W and then maybe Aegislash if you don't have Liquidation. Pyukumuku too but that's something else and honestly sometimes flinch hax is the only way to beat that thing. Seismitoad is 2HKO and its best response is typically Toxic or hope for Scald burn, Earth Power sometimes if it's been weakened by hazards. If any of those encounter prior damage or get flinched it's a pretty done deal.

Priority is not a hard loss to Cloyster at all if you're running the good version of HO aka screens. Under screens, this is the best priority move available basically
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster through Reflect: 135-160 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO .
So you'd need Stealth Rocks and prior damage or hit it on setup for 34% which there are very few mons you'd set up on/could respond after hit that could deliver that (maybe Ferro gyro after failing to flinch or something). One of the most common things to set up on is lead Exca and provided you don't let it get rocks up it cannot deliver that
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster through Reflect: 54-65 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 38.2% chance to 4HKO

Sucker punches are pretty bad especially with Cloyster running Ice Shard. There're basically no SpA priority users besides Lucario. The best choice scarf responders to Cloyster are usually Dragapult or Hydreigon, each are countered usually by one single teammate and can be killed with Ice Shard if given prior damage or maybe none at all
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

So in conclusion, Cloyster isn't the best sweeper in the tier (I'm about to make a post on what I think is) but Cloyster is maybe the best utter wincon against I would say the majority of non-stall teams. Either way I think it's very good as even if it doesn't sweep you typically go +1 in the trade or setup the wincon of another member. Even getting Pex to switch in sometimes is cool because you have something that sets up on it and you likely still have a few turns of screens. You could even run something like Spikes over Ice Shard and get momentum that way when counters come in so there is something you can run to make it do something every game.
 
Forces the team to be built around it is the biggest reason I think it's fine where it is but that definitely is deceiving, HO is one of the most viable strategies. 1 set is definitely not a reason to be ranked lower at all, see Ash-Gren
HO has mons like Kommo-O, Dragapult... An endless list of mons to choose from that don't exclusively go on HO. While HO is very viable RN, that doesn't mean other playstyles don't exist. IMO, if a mon is only viable on one playstyle that is not a good thing unless there are no other playstyles.
lol wat. Ash-Gren was a meta-defining mon that you had to actively play around the entire match and if it got one kill you were mostly toast. (Also, Protean.) Comparing Cloyster to Ash-Gren is like comparing Scolipede to Tapu Lele. Not only do they both do totally different things, but one is a darn slight better at what they do than the other. Having one set is not an issue if that set is good enough, (see also Pex, Ferro, etc), but Cloyster's one set isn't that great. And a designated sweeper needs variance in its sets or the opponent will be able to beat it from Team Preview. A wallbreaker doesn't care, it just hits like a truck and kills whatever is in front of it unless it resists it in which case it just switches out, something a sweeper often can't afford to do.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster through Reflect: 135-160 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SS drops Def by 1. Here's the actual calcs.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 204-242 (84.6 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster through Reflect: 102-121 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
So you'd need Stealth Rocks and prior damage or hit it on setup for 34% which there are very few mons you'd set up on/could respond after hit that could deliver that (maybe Ferro gyro after failing to flinch or something).
so you are saying Cloyster, who has no recovery, SR weakness, takes Spikes damage, and who the opponent KNOWs has to Shell Smash to do anything is going to take no chip?? Cloyster WILL take chip. That's just a fact.
One of the most common things to set up on is lead Exca and provided you don't let it get rocks up it cannot deliver that
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster through Reflect: 54-65 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 38.2% chance to 4HKO
Soo... You get screens up and switch (3 turns, 2 if you risk your safety), and Drill does not get Rocks up OR switch (1 turn)?? Hmm. One lazy mon. Need I remind you that the best Screens lead, Grimmsnarl cannot get your own hazards up or remove them, and Mew cannot remove hazards and is total Taunt bait.
Sucker punches are pretty bad especially with Cloyster running Ice Shard. There're basically no SpA priority users besides Lucario. The best choice scarf responders to Cloyster are usually Dragapult or Hydreigon, each are countered usually by one single teammate and can be killed with Ice Shard if given prior damage or maybe none at all
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHK
Running Ice Shard means not running much-needed coverage. And even then, here's the calc you didn't want to show:
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 230-272 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Cloyster is maybe the best utter wincon against I would say the majority of non-stall teams.
BU Corv, NP Hydreion, every Dragapult set, Conk.... We have an endless list of them.
Either way I think it's very good as even if it doesn't sweep you typically go +1 in the trade or setup the wincon of another member.
only 41% of the time or if your opponent is stupid or lacks a check
Even getting Pex to switch in sometimes is cool because you have something that sets up on it and you likely still have a few turns of screens.
Getting burned is cool. Jk, this is true. But Cloyster being forced out implies a second round of hazard damage it really does not like.
You could even run something like Spikes over Ice Shard and get momentum that way when counters come in so there is something you can run to make it do something every game.
Soo... You are ok with losing to the scarfed mons then. Cloyster already has 4MSS.
 
I did exaggerate on Ash-Gren yea, I just generally meant that that in itself isn't a good argument. What you're saying about the 41% chance though is not correct really, I listed what its actual counters were. Only 4 of them actually hard wall it without hax, the rest at the very least are severely damaged. Only one of them (pex) is very popular. The best semi-wall (Aegi) takes 50% to beat it and reveals its set. It does something in the majority of games.

SS drops Def by 1. Here's the actual calcs.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 204-242 (84.6 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster through Reflect: 102-121 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Yea I forgot, I guess I'm just posting in case you do 2 smashes haha.
so you are saying Cloyster, who has no recovery, SR weakness, takes Spikes damage, and who the opponent KNOWs has to Shell Smash to do anything is going to take no chip?? Cloyster WILL take chip. That's just a fact.

Soo... You get screens up and switch (3 turns, 2 if you risk your safety), and Drill does not get Rocks up OR switch (1 turn)?? Hmm. One lazy mon. Need I remind you that the best Screens lead, Grimmsnarl cannot get your own hazards up or remove them, and Mew cannot remove hazards and is total Taunt bait.
If you run Grimmsnarl and the opponent gets hazards up something is wrong or you're playing Mental Herb Shuckle or Drapion or something. You can always team Hatterene too. But really the Exca example I mentioned is extremely common, you can EV your Grimm to tank a non-Reflect Iron Head and taunt turn one or just predict the attack first (90% of the time that's the case) and taunt after. When Grimm dies you get Cloyster in free. You usually do this when Cloyster is guarenteed 2 kills at least based on preview. If the opponent doesn't kill Grimm you keep it and have screens up without hazards, pretty fair trade. Either way, at least the way I play HO is I don't let hazards up or if they're going up something is setting up.
Running Ice Shard means not running much-needed coverage. And even then, here's the calc you didn't want to show:
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 230-272 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

BU Corv, NP Hydreion, every Dragapult set, Conk.... We have an endless list of them.

only 41% of the time or if your opponent is stupid or lacks a check

Getting burned is cool. Jk, this is true. But Cloyster being forced out implies a second round of hazard damage it really does not like.

Soo... You are ok with losing to the scarfed mons then. Cloyster already has 4MSS.
I wouldn't consider Ice Shard imperative coverage, I already mentioned really the two most common scarf users that outspeed it which are blocked usually by one thing (Sylveon, Clef, Grimm, Bisharp) so you can be confident against them and forgo. The example I presented is definitely only relevant in certain teams but that's an example of the little but existent nuance Cloyster has for its 4th moveslot.

Anyway I already said I agree that it's good where it's at I'm just pointing out some of the parts I think are overly criticized.
 
Nomming Mew from C+ --> B.

So we all know Mew is one of just 2 viable SR rocks leads for HO, but what I want to highlight is its versatility not just in this role, but its ability to run other sets too. First of all, the first lead set that comes to mind is probably the sr spikes taunt boom set, which is a decent lead but imo the better lead is the red card flare blitz set, that allows it to beat the other lead, excadrill. Another option for Mew is gunk shot, allowing it to hit hatterine, which would otherwise bounce its hazards back (you can drop either taunt or spikes for this). Another set worth mentioning is SR 3 attacks, which is nice on BO as a rocker that has a good chance to rock V corvik (ebelt fire blast 2hkos SpD corvik), while being able to use its diverse movepool to take on pretty much anything the team needs. Finally, the set I've had the most success with is its sweeper set, dragon dance. It has a great stab move in psychic fangs (breaking screens helps the HO matchup), and good coverage in flare blitz and cc, with other options such as gunk shot or even power whip to function as a lure for hat or seis, which can be problematic to the standard DD set. This level of versatility is worthy of more than than the predictable, one dimensional mons with it in C+, and even without that versatility I think the DD set outshines most, if not all, of them alone. Raise this thing.

Quick notes on other noms:
Supporting a conkeldurr drop, its a nice breaker but its better on paper than in practice, i rarely see this put in enough work to look at it and see an A rank mon, A- seems more appropriate to me.
Cinderace shouldn't drop imo, court change is really useful hazard control for HOs which would otherwise struggle with rocks or webs (depends on the build ofc), and even outside of this it has great utility moves in sucker punch and uturn, meaning it puts in work most games.
Can we keep dropping Ditto and Toxtricity as well? In all honesty, both are meh, toxtricity massively struggles with dug's existence and offers no defensive utility regardless, only the sg set is viable (other sets are dug trapped, so it fails miserably as a breaker bc almost every fat team seems to have dug), and I'm yet to see this set justify it's ranking. Still feels like new toy syndrome and should be C+ imo, at least while dug is here. Meanwhile idt ditto has fallen far enough in the vr to represent how little it does post dyna.
Also, tea should go UR, idt ive seen one since dyna ban for a good reason: It's shit, other ghosts are better, other sweepers are better and even other shell smash sweepers are better. It's a new toy that doesn't work, UR.

Edit @ below: idk if ur familiar with dug but it rarely switches in to things, also scarf toxtricity is rare (~8% on 1695 stats) and is a bad set (like, just straight up worse than sg or better scarfers the rotoms really) so idek what ur argument is there. My point was tox struggles bc fat can remove it via dug after it gets at most 1 kill (better teams/players will be able to pivot dug in via eject button/teleport/volt switch/uturn/whatever else), its kinda slow so HO (and even BO) dont really have much of a problem with it unless its sg, which has flaws including it being hard to set up and not exactly having a ton of moveslots (eg: a healthy pult beats boomburst/overdrive/fire punch, if u drop punch for snarl u lose to ferro/exca etc), so can fail to kill shit if it didnt have the right set for that game, really the one good matchup is has is dugless balance, and even then it has reasonable checks in shit like exca, ferro and ttar, even if they have to be wary of a specific set.
 
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Why does everyone try to drop Tox?
It's annoyingly difficult for Balance and BO to deal with, only Ferrothorn is able to switch into all of its common moves (Reunigerus doesn't count) and it has to watch out for SG Fire Punch. And @above dugtrio can not switch in safely Boomburst OHKO's it, and brings it down to sash (assuming there's no hazards and its not band) and if tox is scarfed you just lost your duggy.
My point is not every team can afford to fit a slot for Ferrothorn and therefore once it comes in safely it really comes down to guesswork as what to switch in(of course, you need to know how your opponents play). The fact that it can run either Specs or Scarf makes it a nuisance early game as you have to determine which it is and you can't risk the fact that the it's not bluffing Scarf early-game and if it's in on a Seismitoad, you can't risk the fact it's Specs and will be sure to OHKO you with minimal prior chip.
And of course Shift Gear is imo inferior to the other sets but with the right support and once Toad is out of the way it's sure to get on a roll. SG is an excellent late-game cleaner.
 
Nom I agree with:

:Mew: C+ -> B

Been recently testing this mon. It feels great to have so many set options with a movepool that most mons would love to access to. Base 100 stats across the board are pretty deece this current meta as well. From utility to DD to NP to, heck even Choice items if you really want, Mew has an abundance of play options. I definately agree that the DD set is one of its most solid options as Blue Lobster and Thunder Pwoell have already pointed out.

It is so fun to watch players assume you’re setting rocks and thus click hazards of their own, only to realized mew is now +1 on attack and speed. I did notice a fair amount of players on latter were wise to this bluff and would immediately switch to counter however. Regardless, with so many options to play around with, ability to break screens, be physical or special atk oriented, and a really solid stat line, mew deserves much better then C tier.

Shoutouts to Thunder Pwoell for bringing this versatile poke to my attention. :psyglad:
 
hi

i think weavile should be ranked. where exactly i dont rly know but i know for sure its better than shit like arcanine and durant. its not rly hard to see why it should be ranked— its super fast, strong, good typing. ice coverage as a whole is super good cause not much resists it. looking through the list, we have aigislash, rotom-heat, and toxapex as the three main icicle crash switch ins, and two of them get taken out by throat chop. i think the best set is choice band on teams with spikes so you can knock out stuff like dragapult with ice shard, but i'd bet that life orb is viable too. so even though weavile lost knock off and pursuit, overall i think weavile's a decent breaker at worst so yeah rank it

ok i know this replay a) isn't mine and b) is old but it still shows that weavile kills stuff and its not hard to see how it would work now.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038387366

edit:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047219537

there's a better replay. kinda shows the pressure weavile can put on a team cause there just aren't good switch ins esp since mega scizor, magearna, and mega mawile are gone.
 
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Nomming Mew from C+ --> B.

So we all know Mew is one of just 2 viable SR rocks leads for HO, but what I want to highlight is its versatility not just in this role, but its ability to run other sets too. First of all, the first lead set that comes to mind is probably the sr spikes taunt boom set, which is a decent lead but imo the better lead is the red card flare blitz set, that allows it to beat the other lead, excadrill. Another option for Mew is gunk shot, allowing it to hit hatterine, which would otherwise bounce its hazards back (you can drop either taunt or spikes for this). Another set worth mentioning is SR 3 attacks, which is nice on BO as a rocker that has a good chance to rock V corvik (ebelt fire blast 2hkos SpD corvik), while being able to use its diverse movepool to take on pretty much anything the team needs. Finally, the set I've had the most success with is its sweeper set, dragon dance. It has a great stab move in psychic fangs (breaking screens helps the HO matchup), and good coverage in flare blitz and cc, with other options such as gunk shot or even power whip to function as a lure for hat or seis, which can be problematic to the standard DD set. This level of versatility is worthy of more than than the predictable, one dimensional mons with it in C+, and even without that versatility I think the DD set outshines most, if not all, of them alone. Raise this thing.
I was going to post this exact nom so let me just add the double dance SpA set that I think could be even more threatening than DD. I've been running Psychic/Aura Sphere to better deal with Hydreigon and TTar as well Snorlax I guess. Most people run Fire Blast which is better into Corv and beats Aegi. The advantage to this set over DD is two fold: there are more physical walls now generally, prepared for sweepers and Mew can click one or the other of the two to either be a breaker immediately against slower teams (really base 100 is fast anyway, timid lets you outspeed any non-scarf Hydreigon) or to outspeed and 2hko certain threats like adamant barraskewda under rain (yes it is that fast). The trade-off obviously is coverage, it gets walled by something but honestly it is useful enough outside of attempting a sweep and the opponent can't know what actually walls it until you reveal.

The best part about Mew and why I think it's basically the best sweeper is that it can run coverage to beat basically everything so your opponent has to figure out what it is or they lose. Mew also has the bulk to come in on nearly everything after screens. Its main weakness is that it is weak to the two most common priority moves in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch.

Edit: This is a somewhat fun replay of a game I just played sweeping with DD Mew. It shows off its bulk capabilities well at the end (albeit the opponent could've outplayed this scenario) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047571197
 
I was going to post this exact nom so let me just add the double dance SpA set that I think could be even more threatening than DD. I've been running Psychic/Aura Sphere to better deal with Hydreigon and TTar as well Snorlax I guess. Most people run Fire Blast which is better into Corv and beats Aegi. The advantage to this set over DD is two fold: there are more physical walls now generally, prepared for sweepers and Mew can click one or the other of the two to either be a breaker immediately against slower teams (really base 100 is fast anyway, timid lets you outspeed any non-scarf Hydreigon) or to outspeed and 2hko certain threats like adamant barraskewda under rain (yes it is that fast). The trade-off obviously is coverage, it gets walled by something but honestly it is useful enough outside of attempting a sweep and the opponent can't know what actually walls it until you reveal.

The best part about Mew and why I think it's basically the best sweeper is that it can run coverage to beat basically everything so your opponent has to figure out what it is or they lose. Mew also has the bulk to come in on nearly everything after screens. Its main weakness is that it is weak to the two most common priority moves in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch.

Edit: This is a somewhat fun replay of a game I just played sweeping with DD Mew. It shows off its bulk capabilities well at the end (albeit the opponent could've outplayed this scenario) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047571197
I too was experimenting with DD Mew. As you demonstrated, Psychic Fang is Mew’s most powerful Physical STAB, and Flare Blitz is its most powerful option to hit Psychic resistant Steel types, like Aegislash and Corviknight.

I didn’t see your third attacking move in that clip, but as I tend to think Leech Life is generally the best third attacking move, as it hits both Psychics and Dark types for Super Effective Damage, while also off setting FB’s recoil damage with its healing factor and could be coupled with Life Orb for higher damage output. Psychic, Bug and Fire grant perfect neutral coverage together.

Still, these three moves aren’t without issues, and the third move is probably debatable. Megahorn is a stronger physical Bug move, but less accurate. A fighting move like Close Combat could be used to clobber Tyranitar in one shot without a boost, but then Mew would have to rely on Flare Blitz to hit Psychic types.

Still another issue is Mandibuzz, who takes neutral damage from both Bug and Fighting. If wanting to hit Mandibuzz hard is your desire, Play Rough is an option that also hits other Dark types like Tyranitar, but again, without Bug, you risk being walled by fat Psychics.

Then there’s also fat ghosts like the dreaded Evolite Corsolla or Runerigus. Knock Off or Crunch work well for these guys, as well as Psychics, but now you’re walled by Dark types more easily.

Fun to think about. Mew has a lot of options!
 
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There really aren't any fat Psychics in this meta. Hatterene, Reuniclus, and Sigilyph are the closest things, but Hatterene and Sigilyph take neutral damage from Leech Life and Reuniclus beats you 1v1 anyways if it's carrying Acid Armour. I haven't used DD Mew since the beginning of the generation, but the most consistent sets I tried were Psychic Fangs / Darkest Lariat / Close Combat and Psychic Fangs / Play Rough / Flare Blitz. I lean more towards the first set being more consistent in general but matchups versus Mandibuzz are tough, whereas +1 Play Rough 2HKOs Mandi, and Flare Blitz is also nice for pummeling Corviknight with less prior damage.

In general though I think DD Mew is kind of a gimmick. It lacks power before it sets up and often needs 2 DDs to sweep cleanly, its typing sucks both offensively and defensively, and it doesn't have fantastic matchups against metagame staples like Aegislash, Corviknight, and Mandibuzz. It has all the coverage you could ever possibly ask for which makes hard countering it pretty difficult, but that's really its only upside.
 
Hello, excuse me, there are several points in discussion about which I want to comment
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C+ to A- / A / A+ (Agree)
My real reason now, is no change of the metagame, but its great versatility and usefulness, you can really take it in many ways, its typing can make it a target for dragapult, but its great movepool makes it possible to defend itself from many threats it has, so it is very useful in many teams, really if I agree with Mew going up, A- it may seem very high, but it is not, it is more, I can see it A or even A +, because it can sweep or be a lead, its great versatility and utility leads me to want to upload it to A- (and probably A / A +)

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B+ to A- (It deserves to rise, not drop)
I don't think I deserve to drop imo, not only does Court Change take it, it takes All-Out-Attacker too and it is very good, but I will focus more than anything on Court Change, it is a set that now with so much grimmsnarl dual screens or Spikes / SR, it is very good, because it is like a Magic Bounce that returns the traps, so it is not completely invalidated by Seismitoad or Toxapex, I will also mention a full offensive with Band / Scarf, it is really valuable, because Band can 2HKO A large part of OU and Scarf makes it very fast, I think it deserves to rise more than lower, A- rank for this mon

and my noms:
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B to B+
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B- to B+
Mamoswine: It is quite consistent in my opinion, it deserves the rise of rank quite a bit, because it has a dual Ground / Ice stab that will probably be one of the best in OU, offers great offensive coverage and also Thick Fat makes it a wall against the fire type and Scarf Mamoswine, is very good, is very fast and can overcome Cinderace no scarf and many types of fire and now without darmanitan galar it is really excellent, B + would be a suitable place for

Toxtricity: it has a great offensive typing, I still don't know why many people propose to lower it, I think its offensive typing is good, because its dual STAB, it damages the current metagame a lot, if you need extra coverage, it has things like Boomburst and Snarl that they do a lot of damage, Snarl is for Dragapult, Corsola Galar and Gengar especially (also Runerigus if it is used) and Boomburst hits hard, basically it is wonderful, but it has the problem that it is somewhat slow, but it can be solved in sticky web or even some trick room.

Crawdaunt & Dracozolt: They are great physical sweepers, Crawdaunt has a dual STAB equally threatening as the others (their stabs are the main reasons why I climb these mons), because Dark / Water covers each other well and forms a nice slot in many offensive teams, that means you can easily fit it up to Crawdaunt.

Dracozolt can hit many current defensive threats strongly, Bolt Beak is enough to put 2HKO or OHKO to many common mons, my reason for raising it, is basically that it lacks counters and a mon B rank, it has even some counters, but this one does not This is the case, because Bolt Beak has 170 BP and Hustle and a pretty good physical attack and if you add it to a Choice Band or Choice Scarf, it is a monk that lacks counters, the only ones he has are the ground type and not is that there are many, so B+ rank is perfect.

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C to B-
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C- to B-
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C+ to B-
This will be a very long nom, but it is worth mentioning why they deserve to go up
Vaporeon & Jellicent: They could ''worsen'' without Darmanitan Galar, but their real niches are not those, the reason for wanting to use Jellicent or Vaporeon, is to be able to stop Dracovish and offer something else for the OU teams, Vaporeon offers great support, Wish + Haze is probably the most impressive thing it has and gives it great utility, B-rank would be perfect and Jellicent offers WoW and Strengh Sap, this gives teams not only a way to stop Dracovish, but a really physical wall well, so I'm not worth the excuse that '' they went down Darmanitan Galar '', because they offer much more than that, they should be B- rank

Flareon, Arcanine & Centiskorch: Their niche was always to be threats to Clefable, LO Clefable under slightly (which was practically minimal), but not only are threats from LO Clefable, but of the other variants, for example, Wish Clefable, because Wish Clefable is even more passive for these mons and they can hit him hard, they are also very good checks for Rotom-C and Rotom-H, from Rotom-C, because if it's not 2, he can't hit with 2HKO and an intelligent player who plays Flareon / Centiskorch / Arcanine, I could predict when you are going to put Nasty Plot and the same with Rotom-H, but these are only defensive checks of Rotom-H, but they could do it 1v1 if they don't carry Nasty Plot or haven't done nasty plot yet and I mean they also offer something else, Flareon has a support with Wish that can be valuable in balanced constructions, because there are certain sweepers and defensive mons who need wish, Arcanine has more movepool and has Morning Sun, direct recovery, which makes it interesting Also, Centiskorch RestTalk + Knock Off, gives an interesting niche as well, but all this shows that they are more than just Clefable checks.

Umbreon: My reason for wanting to raise it from C or C + even, is basically, because its competitive niche is not so small, I will concentrate on its niche and how consistent it is today, its niche about Mandibuzz is that of being a Wishpasser, how so It is good now to be a wishpasser ?, because it is excellent and consistent, because now the teams with Umbreon, Aegislash is usually carried and those things, defensive mons, but without direct recovery, so these mons can benefit from Umbreon, this means that Umbreon is a bit easier to fit in than Mandibuzz, because it also has fewer weaknesses, going up to Umbreon.

Milotic: It can get worse without darmanitan galar, but it has an unexplored niche and it is Mirror Coat, this makes it an interesting special defense that can be a dragapult check and other special attacks and in general it is its best niche, because it is a way of using it It came back better now that Dragapult is more common, that's why I want it to go up to B-.

Goodbye see you later
 
I support this nom. Vaporeon shuts down taunt-less corviknight, and threatens to burn and break subs if it does have taunt. It's a decent pivot into aegislash avoiding the 2hko from specs most of the time, and obviously threatening choice band out. Handles ground types (exca/hippo/dug/mamo without band), cinderace, counters dracovish, and passes huge wishes, which are really useful in this meta because it's a fairly offensive one and healing is hard to come by. Flareon's role hasn't changed since it was added to VR, but I think it's underrated. It has a good matchup against top threats like dragapult, clef, hydreigon (+2 hydrei can't even kill it with draco, and gets superpowered back), and can even check some physical mons like bisharp and grimmsnarl, making it more valuable than other C rank walls like table and pyuku. Flareon has a little more room for tech than vaporeon because it can choose whether it wants to inflict burn or sleep, or it could drop wish and run both.
Both mons are also deceptively powerful, even with 0 investment. Their walling/wishing niche should give them a bump up.

And dracozolt is starting to look like a real threat, too.
 
:centiskorch: I don't know about any of the other stuff mentioned above but I want to echo moving Centiskorch to B- rank. I tried this thing out for a run and completely exceeded my expectations, not only is it a great answer to Clefable and solid special wall in general, but Fire Lash is just an incredible tool for overwhelming defensive Pokemon. It's just so, so good at putting continuous pressure on walls and defensive boosters, and this is especially true when you factor in Knock Off removing their passive Leftovers recovery. For example, I once managed to beat both Curse Gastrodon and Acid Armor Reuiniclus in the same match (unfortunately I didn't save the replay so you'll have to take my work for it). I really want to reccommend people try it out because it's the kind of Pokemon that works better in practice than on paper, it's definitely on par with the likes of Xatu and Snorlax in my opinion.
 
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Jaajgko

I will disband the soccer club
is a Tiering Contributor
This is untrue for a few reasons. Leftovers or Damp Rock is preferred on Pelipper as it's only niche is to set up rain. Pelipper has more than just alot of checks, with Thunderbolt being run on Dragapult, the most highly used Pokemon, and Clefable,who recently moved into S tier. Also, with Dracovish dropping, rain has gotten a bit weaker. Also, for its counters, you still have Seismitoad which is not only useful as a Dracovish but offers great utility in teams with Stealth Rock and Toxic, so you only get hit by a Hurricane while getting weakened with Toxic. Also, Hydro Pump > Weather Ball imo.
Specs Pelipper is good, if you predict correctly with it you're usually able to 2HKO something, even on fat teams.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Mandibuzz in Rain: 246-289 (58.1 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 300-354 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seismitoad is a bit annoying as it prevents it from spamming water moves freely but it takes a ton from Hurricane so if you catch it once on the switch you put your other rain abuser(s) in a really good position.
With Specs you have fewer turns of rain but at the same time it's not a big deal as long as you don't try to run 3 rain abusers with it, one rain abuser like Crawdaunt or Vish is enough and then you can add some mons that benefit from rain being up like Ferro or Dragapult. It doesn't come in on much mons though, but since the meta is so defensive, I don't think it's a big deal, and defog Corviknight gives it a lot of free turns which is quite nice. Overall a pretty good breaker that brings good utility to the team, which may restrict the build a bit (things like Rotom-H are harder to make use of and your clef needs to be wish) but enables really cool strategies and a 382 bp Fishious Rend ^^. Speaking of Dracovish, it has seen a drop because the very popular core of Seismitoad + Clef/Sylveon but I think it's because people only thought of it as a choice item user, whereas it seems way better to me with a Splash Plate set. Crawdaunt is also incredible against bulky teams, this mon can get a kill on every defog / sr / recover / double switch and can even sweep, especially under rain.

TLDR : Pelipper is pretty epic and should see a raise, and rain is better than people think it is, it's hard rain that lost in viability.
 
Specs Pelipper is good, if you predict correctly with it you're usually able to 2HKO something, even on fat teams.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Mandibuzz in Rain: 246-289 (58.1 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 300-354 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seismitoad is a bit annoying as it prevents it from spamming water moves freely but it takes a ton from Hurricane so if you catch it once on the switch you put your other rain abuser(s) in a really good position.
With Specs you have fewer turns of rain but at the same time it's not a big deal as long as you don't try to run 3 rain abusers with it, one rain abuser like Crawdaunt or Vish is enough and then you can add some mons that benefit from rain being up like Ferro or Dragapult. It doesn't come in on much mons though, but since the meta is so defensive, I don't think it's a big deal, and defog Corviknight gives it a lot of free turns which is quite nice. Overall a pretty good breaker that brings good utility to the team, which may restrict the build a bit (things like Rotom-H are harder to make use of and your clef needs to be wish) but enables really cool strategies and a 382 bp Fishious Rend ^^. Speaking of Dracovish, it has seen a drop because the very popular core of Seismitoad + Clef/Sylveon but I think it's because people only thought of it as a choice item user, whereas it seems way better to me with a Splash Plate set. Crawdaunt is also incredible against bulky teams, this mon can get a kill on every defog / sr / recover / double switch and can even sweep, especially under rain.

TLDR : Pelipper is pretty epic and should see a raise, and rain is better than people think it is, it's hard rain that lost in viability.
In full agreement here. I've been running a team based on Specs Pelipper since I saw it in SPL and it's actually quite strong in this meta. The only thing that hard checks it is Rotom-W (which still doesn't like to switch in on Weather Ball much) and that's been quite uncommon lately. It's hard to overstate just how great spamming Hurricane is, it takes a huge chunk out of pretty much anything that comes in on it bar Corviknight. And much like Dracovish, it makes an excellent partner with Rotom-Mow, but it's even better as Rotom-Mow appreciates the rain weakening Fire moves, allowing it to potentially live some weaker coverage moves. You don't even really need to run other rain abusers to make it worthwhile. Pelipper definitely needs team support though, you need a ground type to soak up those tbolts and something to clear rocks since Pelipper really misses having boots. Lefties Excadrill sets make a solid partner here, as do Wish users and, somewhat counterintuitively, sdef Hippowdon.
 
I do agree that the toad would never be in A rank if not solely for checking Vish. I’m unsure how I feel about banning it. I wouldn’t be opposed per se, but I don’t really think it’s necessary since Vish play is about as subtle as a guy hiding a sledgehammer. A sledgehammer is powerful, but unless you’re skilled, the other guy ain’t getting hit. But that’s neither here nor there and I honestly don’t know if this or the OU meta game forum is where you’d discuss if Vish is or isn’t banworthy.

Nom:
:chandelure: Unranked -> ranked

Anyways, something that was brought up by ppl in SQSA forums that is really interesting. They mentioned how odd it is that mons like Drednaw and Arcanine are ranked over Lure. The blazing mansion ornament has got its selling points as well. It has the highest special attack of all OU ghosts at 145. And it’s speed is... ok? Lol. 80 speed means it is faster then Aegislash. It is a ghost making it immune to conk mach punch and Kommo body press. But reasonably the main reason you would want to choose lure is because it has flash fire. Being immune to Rotom-Heat’s mainstay attack and getting a boost to it’s already skyhigh Sp.A is awesome. And many other pokemon carry fireblast/flamethrower to take on steels.

Ideally you’re pairing this mon up Excadrill, Ferrothorn, or Rotom-Mow to either entice the other player to click a fire move or they gotta respect that you’ve got lure for switch ins which cause uncertainty with 50/50s. Boots are almost a must 90% of the time. If you’re feeling adventurous you could risk using scarf to remedy the average speed.

Now I cannot in good confidence reasonably see this mon going anywhere higher then -C. It may have the highest special atk of all ghosts, buuut drop 5-15 points and you gain steel typing with Aegislash and significantly better speed with Gengar. And that’s before we mention OU superstar Pult. It has tremendous competition for the ghost slot. Not to mention it has to face off against said ghost frequently, and Mandibuzz, AND Hydreigedon. There are all needless to say difficult matchups. Lure is a niche pick fosho. It has to be built around. It has to utilize good team synergy with its flash fire ability to cover fire weak mons. But when Lure can switch in to a fire move and it starts to deliver hits, it can pack a punch.

Tl;dl - Give a dog a bone and toss Chandelure some kind of a rank. :mehowth:

finch edit: you need replays to make a nomination to rank smth, so the nomination is invalid. keeping this up cuz the rest of the post tho, you can edit in replays

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Just one so far to make a starting case. Not very pleased with it tbh. Will add more to make a clearer case soon.

Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1048975936
 
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