Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Update: Post 102]

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AnimaticLunatic

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While I apreciate the effort, tournament stats are also not best way to determine how good something is in the meta as a whole. Winrate in itself is a tricky mistress since these kind of things happen all the time in pokemon and in WcoP. Popularity of few pokemon can make other suffer as result. But I always felt like these viability rankings are meant more for lather then tournament setting (they still help imensly in building your team and getting handle on the meta). Now I have not followed the WcoP so I can not comment on trends, but I do not feel that week one of of tournament with new meta is a good way to judge a pokemon.

This is where I will try to justify myself. Rillaboom has many natural checks in the tire, and it is walled by a lot of things, but as you said it has only 2 constant walls in two flying metal birds. All other walls such as grasses can be overwhelmed by sword dance acrobatics set or couple of you turns. Tangrowth especially is prone to u turn chip and it has to watch out for knock off so that it would not lose rocky helmet. Mandibuzz walls it. yes, but a toxic from any of your teammates (Excadrill as prime example) put in a timer that also gets shorter if it gets its boots knocked off. It is one of few reliable revenge killers to Alakazam and it basically makes rain an auto lose situation for your opponent.
But these are not thing that make it great. What makes it great in my eyes how, while yes grass is not a good typing offensively in OU, it still breaks to many walls that wall other pokemon such as Urshifu and Cindarace. PDf clefable, SPd mandibuzz, Toxapex, Slowbro and Hippowdon are all walls that it either forces out or that can not safely switch in to it. It is one of few pokemon that can come on Zeraora and Exadril and threaten them offensively. So it makes pretty good cores with a lot of top tire offensive pokemon (especially Cindarace).And with how many people realised that Woodhamer is still good as secondery grass stab, it can still damage and threaten to kill a lot of its checks after some chip. And passive healing from grassy terrain is valuable to grounded pokemon, not only to Grassy seed users.

I feel like it is a more of A mon then B- myself, but I am biased since I have been very vocal on how this pokemon is basically a choice band Scizor of old (gen 4 to be more precise).

Edit: Flinch basically said everything I wanted to say. Dammit.
 
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Finchinator

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OU & NU Leader
Hey guys, just an update:
  • We're adding John W to the OU VR Council. Welcome to him!
  • Magearna's suspect is wrapping up soon and OLT starts on Wednesday, so we will get an update in 1-2 weeks to reflect some changes
  • You guys have been especially good with not pestering me about updates mid-suspect, so thanks for that :blobthumbsup:
pm if you have any questions as always
 

Finchinator

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OU & NU Leader
Hey guys, we are re-opening this thread after voting on a new slate to reflect the metagame after the bans of Magearna and Cinderace.

Rises
  • :Volcarona: from A to A+: Volcarona proved itself a great option in the current metagame due to its ability to defeat potential checks and counters with a varied assortment of Quiver Dance variants. This understated versatility allows for it to get around normal stops to it; for example, Safeguard helps with Blissey and Psychic helps with Toxapex. This allows for Volcarona to be a menace to opposing teams as a special win condition.
  • :Corviknight: from A- to A+: Corviknight is a staple on common stall teams, it is able to wall top options offensively like Excadrill and Rillaboom, and Presusre is a super practical ability. This allows for it to take back the title of top Defog user in the metagame. Previously, Mandibuzz was seen as more common and perhaps practical on balance builds due to how well it did against Wicked Blow Urshifu and Cinderace -- not being weak to Pyro Ball, but now the tier being freed up a bit plays into the wing hand of Corviknight, which sees much more usage now because of all of this.
  • :Rillaboom: from A- to A: Rillaboom is a great option on hyper offensive teams due to having strong priority, being able to deter opposing offensive archetpyes such as Rain, and also giving Grassy Terrain support that helps for options like Hawlucha. On top of this, it is a great soft-check to many things on balance teams and can function as a breaker with Choice Band or a sweeper with Swords Dance. All things considered, Rillaboom is now one of the metagame's best offensive options.
  • :Kyurem: from B+ to A: Kyurem, much like Corviknight, greatly appreciates the ability Pressure. It has recently been running a mixed SubRoost set that has been a cornerstone of some stall teams. It is able to waste lots of PP and force progress like nothing else. In addition, the Choice Specs set is slowly picking back up in usage, which is another reason for it moving up a whole two subranks. Finally, phenomenal natural bulk paired with Heavy Duty Boots goes a long way for the metagame's favorite Ice type.
  • :Skarmory: from B+ to A-: Skarmory is finally picking up as a lot of teams are electing to forgo focusing on hazard removal and instead place an emphasis on setting up their own entry hazards; Skarmory does a great job setting Spikes up and is also able to wall a similar assortment of Pokemon to the aforementioned Corviknight (Excadrill, Rillaboom, and Bisharp to name a few).
  • :Magnezone: from B to B+: Magnezone is finally breaking out into the metagame. Much like everyone's favorite YouTuber Finchinator predicted, Magnezone picked up in usage upon the recent bans. Specs Analytic is a potent special attacker, but Magnet Pull sets are also seen as very practical options due to Skarmory and Corviknight surging in usage. It pairs well with many Pokemon that struggle against those Steel types.
  • :Togekiss: from B to B+: Togekiss is another strong special attacker; the Nasty Plot variants do well against bulkier teams whereas Choice Scarf can put a dent in offensive teams. Overall, Togekiss is an annoying Pokemon to face, but besides from flinching antics, it is still a practical option due to its Fairy typing helping against Urshifu and the various sets it runs doing well against common structures.
  • :Crawdaunt: from B- to B+: Crawdaunt is surging as a physically offensive breaker in the metagame. The Life Orb 3 attacks Swords Dance variant takes advantage fully of the dual STAB combination that Crawdaunt has as well as Adaptability and priority Aqua Jet. It is oftentimes able to at least force a kill, potentially getting multiple against more passive teams.
  • :Aegislash: from B- to B: Aegislash is seeing more usage as a breaker with Choice Specs and Spell Tag oftentimes running Shadow Ball and Close Combat to help make it a mixed breaker against common bulky cores; Aegislash faces lots of competition from other Steel types, but it has a nice place offensively right now.
  • :Ditto: from B- to B+: Ditto is used on stall teams to revenge kill certain offensive Pokemon and give infinite PP on repeat against opposing stall. It has surged in usage and viability over the course of OLT due to this.
  • :Scizor: from B- to B+: Scizor is a great anti-offense option and practical check to Rillaboom and Kyurem for more offensive builds. It goes a long way with Swords Dance and Life Orb powering up an already boosted Technician STAB Bullet Punch and Knock Off. This allows for Scizor to be a sweeper with some utility as well. It does face stiff competition with other Steel types such as the aforementioned Aegislash and the Flying/Steel duo, but on the right offensive build it can be a satisfactory option.
  • :Hatterene: from B- to B: Hatterene's Calm Mind 3 attacks set featuring Draining Kiss for recovery has been doing well in the metagame, making progress via hazard setting challenging for bulkier teams and also posing as an efficient win condition that annoys many balance builds.
  • :Hawlucha: from B- to B: Hawlucha is a great win condition on hyper offensive teams when paired alongside Grassy Terrain Rillaboom. It is able to use Grassy Seed to activate unburden and boost Acrobatics damage; it has a nice choice of fourth moves to help it generate openings to sweep with Substitute doing particularly well against common defensive options like Toxapex, status inducing Grass types, and Toxic Hippowdon.
  • :Necrozma: from C+ to B: Meteor Beam + Power Herb Necrozma is a legitimate offensive threat, luring in things like Mandibuzz in particular, and can either pose as a win condition with Rock Polish or a Stealth Rock setter in the earlier game. With strong Psychic STAB and coverage like Heat Wave, this makes Necormza an underrated offensive option on the special end.
  • :Toxtricity: from C+ to B: Toxtricity with Drain Punch and Shift Gear is able to prevent normal counterplay such as Blissey and Excadrill from safely defeating it. While Toxtricity is still frail and does not do much defensively besides checking Clefable and Toxapex, it still can do a lot to bulkier teams offensively and potentially clean up opposing offensive with timely Shift Gear.
  • :Weezing-Galar: from C+ to B-: Weezing-Galar is a nice utility option with a disruptive ability and the defensive presence that it brings to the table can help tie teams together, especially if they struggle against Rillaboom and Urshifu.
  • :Dracozolt: from UR to C: Dracozolt's mixed set is quite hard to switch in to. It was used a couple of times later in WCOP and recently on the OLT ladder. While it does not have much defensive use, it is able to dish out damage and when paired with Teleport, it is able to get in safely enough to justify use of it, so we decided to rank it.
Drops
  • :Mandibuzz: from A+ to A: Mandibuzz started off as a premier Defog option, but recently fell off a bit due to Pokemon like Clefable surging as Stealth Rock setters and an abundance of Toxic users like Skarmory and Hippowdon setting up hazards as well. In addition, Corviknight has quickly surged to the top of the metagame, leaving Mandibuzz as a secondary Defog option. It still does well against Rillaboom and Excadrill while resisting the Ghost type, but this is not enough for it to remain A+.
  • :Slowbro: from A to A-: Slowbro is a fine pivot that has great physical bulk, but it struggles with a plethora of common attackers such as Urshifu, Rillaboom, Magnezone, and Aegislash, who are all improving in the current metagame. Slowbro has been a fringe pick on balance teams over the course of OLT and likely will surge up again once the metagame grows more stable, but for now it is overwhelmed.
  • :Rotom-Heat: from A to A-: Rotom-Heat is still a solid option, but with a lot of overwhelming competition offensively and less Pokemon it can wall given the recent ban of Magearna and even Cinderace, it is harder to fit on to teams justifiably, especially with the metagame shifting away from balance being spammed so much as Rotom-Heat fits best on those teams.
  • :Chansey: from B to B-: Chansey is simply seen as a less practical option when compared to Blissey, which can use Heavy Duty Boots and can abuse Teleport with more momentum because of this. Also, with Trick and Knock being so disruptive, it is hard to justify using Chansey as much regardless.
  • :Marowak-Alola: from B to C+: Marowak-Alola simply needs to do too much to justify using it. It lacks to bulk and speed. It also struggles to pick between two abilities. Ultimately, not many people like it as an option outside of fringe styles such as Trick Room teams anymore unfortunately. However, there is still some viability on those archetypes.
  • :Rotom-Wash: from B- to C+: Rotom-Wash simply does not have as much of a place in the tier as it once did. No sets stand out as common and while it can check a decent pool of Pokemon, it faces stiff competition among Rotom-Heat, fellow Water types, and a plethora of solid pivots and walls ranked higher than it.
  • :Snorlax: from C to C-: Snorlax probably is not worth using when every stall team has Haze Toxapex and every offensive team can easily overwhelm it, so it has fallen another subrank unfortunately.
Hope you enjoy. This will be open to post in momentarily (TPP update the OP whenever you'd like GMars update the second post to log the updates whenever you'd like)
 

MANNAT

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:primarina:
Please raise this thing I have no idea why it was even C in the first place. SubCM is awesome and can singlehandedly win games. Also it's got neat defensive utility against top threats like Hydreigon and Dragapult among a ton of other special stuff, I think that it can definitely fit somewhere into B-rank alongside stuff like Necro and Azu that have that same autowin-ability.
 

Ruft

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OU Leader

Darmanitan from UR to C/C+

Months ago, before the release of Libero, Darmanitan was a staple abuser on sun teams as a physical breaker and cleaner. However, with Cinderace gaining Libero, it stole its spotlight on this archetype, as while it is weaker, it is much more versatile and has the option to run Heavy-Duty Boots. The rise of Charizard as a sun abuser and breaker also gave it competition on such teams. Now with Cinderace banned and Hatterene and Xatu finding a lot of usage on sun teams to avoid Stealth Rock, I believe Darmanitan deserves to be ranked again, namely with this set:

Darmanitan @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Trick

Choice Scarf makes it a very good cleaner, as it is able to outspeed as well as 2HKO the vast majority of the metagame under sun. It is able to perform well vs offensive and bulky teams alike, as with Trick it is able to cripple switch-ins it has trouble break breaking, such as Toxapex and Hippowdon, as well as setup sweepers like Calm Mind Clefable, Hatterene, and Primarina. Additionally, sun teams are often known to have trouble against Dragapult, but Choice Scarf Darmanitan outspeeds it and is able to take it out with just a little bit of chip under sun:
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Sun: 256-302 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That was Jolly, but I think Adamant is a valid option too. It still outspeeds Dragapult, Zeraora, and Choice Scarf Togekiss, but it does miss out on outspeeding +1 Jolly Excadrill and +1 neutral natured 252 Spe Volcarona, as well as some other important benchmarks when it loses its Choice Scarf:
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Sun: 281-331 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Additionally, Choice Scarf isn't the only item it can run, as Choice Band or even Life Orb may improve its matchup against fatter builds.

I noticed Finch had some good success using it on the OLT ladder, so I'll add some of his replays showcasing Darmanitan here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1172203957
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1172301761




I also hard agree with Primarina rising, probably to B-/B. Teams that are underprepared against it will often find their checks Scald burned or lose to it on the spot. It is able to find ample setup opportunities with Substitute + Calm Mind and between Leftovers, Draining Kiss, and potential Grassy Terrain recovery it has a surprising amount of longevity, making it often not an easy task to take it out. Draining Kiss also allows it take on Blissey.
 

Monky25

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1597948808591.png
B --> B- : Idk to me gastrodon doesn't feel like a B rank mon compared to the others. Yeah it does check stuff like zera, drill, and volc but rillaboom usage everywhere and freeze dry kyurem re surging hurts it. It just doesn't feel on par with stuff like aegislash, hat, tox, or necrozma, which are all great at dismembering common builds, or the rain archetype which is still very good. That's why I think a small drop to B- makes sense to me.

Other stuff I agree with would be primarina to C+ or B-, it's great at destroing stuff with sub+ calm mind and has great defnse against dragapult and hydriegon. Also, Darm rising to C+/C makes sense as it has filled the void left by cinderace of a physical sun breaker. Nothing much to say, flare blitz with a choice band in the sun really hurts,
 
View attachment 270558 B --> B- : Idk to me gastrodon doesn't feel like a B rank mon compared to the others. Yeah it does check stuff like zera, drill, and volc but rillaboom usage everywhere and freeze dry kyurem re surging hurts it. It just doesn't feel on par with stuff like aegislash, hat, tox, or necrozma, which are all great at dismembering common builds, or the rain archetype which is still very good. That's why I think a small drop to B- makes sense to me.

Other stuff I agree with would be primarina to C+ or B-, it's great at destroing stuff with sub+ calm mind and has great defnse against dragapult and hydriegon. Also, Darm rising to C+/C makes sense as it has filled the void left by cinderace of a physical sun breaker. Nothing much to say, flare blitz with a choice band in the sun really hurts,
I guess I might point out that Gastro offers a semi-unique defensive role as a good check to Analytic Specs Magnezone, because it blocks Volt Switch, resists Flash Cannon, and gets Recover. Otherwise the alternative is to run like Wish Blissey plus some other Volt blocker, which takes up two slots.

EDIT: oh and blocking scald is a plus too
 
milotic.png


Nominating Milotic from Unranked (wtf) to C or C- rank in OU.

I have used Milotic extensively in OU and consistently managed to reach mid-high ladder in the range of 1600 - 1700, to even exceeding 1700.

How to use?

In my view, Milotic’s most consistent and viable set in OU is its mixed wall set (with tweaks to its past SS OU EV spread):

Milotic @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
Nature: Bold
EV: 252 HP/ 124 Defence / 84 Sp Def/ 48 Speed
  • Scald
  • Toxic/Ice Beam
  • Haze/Flip Turn
  • Recover
Flame Orb is no longer a gimmicky item of choice on Milotic as compared to past metagames where the burn damage proved inefficient (some even say detrimental) on Milotic’s walling ability. In particular, with the nerf to burn damage to just 6% per turn and thereafter providing Milotic with an immunity to status, Flame Orb provides Milotic a self-reliant way of obtaining the Marvel Scale (“MS”) boost to its Defence and Milotic can easily regain HP via Recover. The EV investment in Defence allows Milotic to reach 370 Defence when MS is activated, coupled with 394 HP which allows Milotic to check threats that it otherwise originally could not and proceed to cripple them with either Scald (burn), Toxic or dealing heavy damage with Ice Beam (if opponent is a dragon type or weak to Ice) – Terrakion, Scizor, Dragapult (non-hex), Urshifu (non-band), Rilaboom (non-band), Exacdrill (non-Mold Breaker) etc. Also, if Salazzle rises in popularity again, MS Milotic will be sure to check it, especially the Toxic-stalling Salazzle set. Finally, MS Milotic can sponge Knock-Off since Flame Orb is no longer necessary once the burn has set in, and this makes Milotic excellent against ghost types using Poltergeist (Alolan-Marowak etc.)

The proposed moves are standard and quite self-explanatory for a defensive Milotic. Notably, Milotic also gained Flip Turn post-DLC so if your preference is not to stay in, Flip Turn can be used to maintain momentum so that a partner pokemon in the team can deal with the threat ahead.

48 Speed EVs allows Milotic to hit 210 Speed, thereby checking Adamant Crawdaunt, most Primarinas and most notably Azumarill (especially the Belly Drum set) with Haze to prevent boosting and allowing Milotic to Toxic-stall the same. This investment of EVs in Speed does not reduce Milotic’s bulk thanks to Flame Orb. The remaining 84 EVs are put into Sp Def to beef it up to 307 Sp Def which is respectable for a mixed wall set and allows Milotic to better sponge special hits.

The MS Milotic set also walled Cinderace previously as none of its attacks can 2HKO Milotic and Cinderace risked getting burned by Scald if it stayed in, provided that Milotic hit 400 Defence after MS is activated (267 Defence before MS). Since Cinderace is now banned, Milotic can now afford to beef up its Sp Def more. If the preference is therefore to exploit Milotic’s superior special bulk, the EVs between Defence and Sp Def may be adjusted accordingly and Milotic’s nature can also be changed to Calm. One may then consider equipping Milotic with Leftovers and other moves such as Mirror Coat. A specially defensive Milotic also takes on boosting Volcarona decently so long as Volcarona lacks Giga Drain (which most do not have these days as Psychic is the superior option to deal with Toxapex and at least dent Dragapult).


Downsides

With the OU metagame being so hard-hitting these days, defensive pokemon are rarely able to keep up. The ones that have withstood the harshness and brute force of the current metagame are usually those with a superior defensive ability such as Regenerator or with typings that wall / check the top offensive threats of the metagame (Hippowdon, Galarian-Weezing, Mandibuzz etc.).

A pure water typing is decent though I acknowledge that while there is a lack of weaknesses, there is also a lack of useful resistances which may cause MS Milotic’s augmented physical bulk to also struggle against very strong Close Combats, banded Wicked Blows and boosted dragon attacks such as Dragon Darts and Outrage. The special side did not get easier either since more pokemon now have access to Nasty Plot such as Gengar, Alakazam and Hydreigon.

Additionally, while MS Milotic functions similarly to Toxapex, Milotic lacks Knock-Off, Regenerator and poison support moves. I’m not saying Milotic can wholesale replace Toxapex in a team but I think Milotic distinguishes itself with its lack of exploitable ground and psychic weaknesses and being able to achieve mixed-wall capability at a small price.

Defog support is also highly recommended since Milotic is vulnerable to Stealth Rock and Spikes on top of the burn damage but thankfully, Toxic Spikes no longer affect Milotic once Flame Orb has activated a burn beforehand.


Partners

From experience, MS Milotic is a good member of a strong defensive core in a bulky offence team, especially when partnered with other dedicated walls:
  • Amoongus;
  • Blissey;
  • Chansey;
  • Corviknight;
  • Ferrothorn;
  • Galarian-Weezing;
  • Hippowdon; and
  • Tangrowth.
Offensive partners – dragons and strong ground types such as Hydreigon, Dragapult, Mamoswine etc. all benefit from having Milotic in their team. Steel types such as Excadrill also benefit from Milotic’s presence to help absorb fire, non-boosted fighting moves and ground moves. Pokemon that are susceptible to status also appreciate having Milotic around.


Concluding thoughts

I know many of you will think “you should just use Toxapex” in OU since the movesets are similar and Toxapex clearly has superior defensive support moves and marginally better overall bulk. Putting aside the discussion of banning Toxapex, Milotic’s defensive prowess is not shabby and it has less exploitable weaknesses. It is also not crippled by Knock-Off so long as you get that burn up beforehand which is not difficult. Additionally, Milotic has superior Sp Atk and way higher Speed than Toxapex which can make a stark difference i.e. being able to land a fast Toxic and proceed to toxic-stall its opponents, and Haze boosts away so that it won't get hit by boosted moves.

With the right team support, MS Milotic can put in good work and is a decent choice of a bulky water in OU.

Some replays for reference:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1157247793-9lodnyvt6w4vq14bs93gd35rckx6icapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1157245582
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1158941918-kh5yt2zxjinfkddhnlujyc2y8ocp94rpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1173117963-pkmtjopqynhzkelrzfnyelpuep53jv2pw
 
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I like the current viability rankings, especially the higher rankings; the lower rankings could definitely use some ironing out. There's really only one Pokemon that really stands out in the higher rankings to me right now. That Pokemon being Excadrill.


Although I voted Excadrill to stay in A+ on this slate, I've since changed my mind. Excadrill is obviously still one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, but I think that A+ overstates its viability and prominence right now. With Corviknight and Skarmory being as prominent as they are, I don't think Excadrill's utility is quite as strong as it's been in the past; it can't keep Stealth Rock up against Corviknight and isn't really sufficient entry hazard removal against Skarmory. On top of that, its matchup against the current hyper offensive teams we're seeing really isn't that impressive either, as it really struggles with Rillaboom and Crawdaunt. Ultimately, I think Excadrill should drop to A or A- as a result of these recent metagame trends.
 
And I quote:

  • :Snorlax: from C to C-: Snorlax probably is not worth using when every stall team has Haze Toxapex and every offensive team can easily overwhelm it, so it has fallen another subrank unfortunately.

why even keep it in vr then? What team gains a concrete benefit from running snorlax over other options?
 
And I quote:

  • :Snorlax: from C to C-: Snorlax probably is not worth using when every stall team has Haze Toxapex and every offensive team can easily overwhelm it, so it has fallen another subrank unfortunately.

why even keep it in vr then? What team gains a concrete benefit from running snorlax over other options?
My following point may very well not be enough to keep Lax viable, but if I were to compare it to Blissey/Chansey, the difference is that Lax can switch into and OHKO/2HKO special attackers while trading off the pink blobs longevity/wish support.
So Lax may be less of a 'victim' to spAtker/mix sets that have risen more recently, such as:
safeguard Volc, sub Hex Pult, the return of Kyurem, 'Zam to an extent, Gengar, specs Zone to an extent, Gengar, drain punch Toxtricity, & Zard to an extent.

Like having access to Thick Fat, EQ/horsepower, darkest lariat, and rock slide allows a healthy Lax to threaten these more specific breakers if a team wants to lessen their matchup gambling.

But like I said at first, on the other hand I can definitely see an argument that this isn't enough to keep a viability rank.
 
Here are some of my noms!

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C —> C+ or B-

Primarina surged in OLT Cycle 2 recently due to its ability to check post-Cinderace/Magearna threats such as Volc and Urshifu-S. It is also able to deal neutral damage to almost every viable OU mon due to its coverage, with the only one safe from it being Pex.

1598056925567.png
C+ —> B- or B

I have no idea why Urshifu-R is ranked this low in the VR. It is a good Pokémon to use in balance teams, as well as weather, as seen in OLT. It was seen most commonly in rain teams, being used as a wall breaker under rain.
 
1598056925567.png
C+ —> B- or B

I have no idea why Urshifu-R is ranked this low in the VR. It is a good Pokémon to use in balance teams, as well as weather, as seen in OLT. It was seen most commonly in rain teams, being used as a wall breaker under rain
The problems I see with Water Urshifu is two things:
1) his STAB are fairly more easy walled by the defensivo mons of the tier ex. :Slowbro:, :Toxapex:, :Amoonguss:
2) the presence of :Rillaboom: and the ban of :Cinderace: reduce the uselfuness of Rain as a playstile
 

Ruft

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The problems I see with Water Urshifu is two things:
1) his STAB are fairly more easy walled by the defensivo mons of the tier ex. :Slowbro:, :Toxapex:, :Amoonguss:
2) the presence of :Rillaboom: and the ban of :Cinderace: reduce the uselfuness of Rain as a playstile
Some counterpoints:

1) While this is true, Urshifu can use U-turn to pivot out on these Pokemon and bring in a threat to them for free, like Choice Specs Kyurem, which makes for an excellent partner for this reason, offering more breaking opportunities and as such alleviating much of this downside.

2) While Rillaboom can indeed pose trouble to rain, the style itself matches up well against offense in general, which is seeing quite a surge in popularity on the OLT ladder. This is evidenced by the success Ox the Fox and his rain team have seen so far. His team in particular features both Kyurem and Ferrothorn, which vastly improves its matchup against Rillaboom. Besides, Urshifu-R can fit on team styles other than rain too.

That is to say I agree with Urshifu-R rising to B-/B.
 
Urshifu-Dark to S rank - Urshifu may not seem worthy of S rank until you think about what it means to be S rank. Urshifu centralizes the game around itself & is still capable of putting in work every game its in. It doesn't require much help in team building either. Its a very dominant threat that actually appreciates the slower/bulky teams being more common. Hazard Stack + U-Turn also goes a long way in quickening chip on bulky answers. The fact that it pulls a lot of 50/50s in its favor due to its sheer power speaks loudly to how monstrous of a threat it is in the current metagame.

I agree with Ruft's nom on Darmanitan being ranked. Also, Finch is Apollo irl.
 
Urshifu-Dark to S rank - Urshifu may not seem worthy of S rank until you think about what it means to be S rank. Urshifu centralizes the game around itself & is still capable of putting in work every game its in. It doesn't require much help in team building either. Its a very dominant threat that actually appreciates the slower/bulky teams being more common. Hazard Stack + U-Turn also goes a long way in quickening chip on bulky answers. The fact that it pulls a lot of 50/50s in its favor due to its sheer power speaks loudly to how monstrous of a threat it is in the current metagame.

I agree with Ruft's nom on Darmanitan being ranked. Also, Finch is Apollo irl.
Disagree. I'm by no means a good player, but the only time I've found Urshifu-Dark to be oppressive damage-wise is when its carrying Choice Band. And while that set deals great damage, it can be played around with via Rocky Helment Damage and mons that resist its moves, like Kommo-o, Clefable, Regenerator mons, and Togekiss. Most of the time, its struggling to get past its checks because so much prediction is required to get rid of them. Even using U-Turn isn't safe because Rocky Helmet damage adds up over time. And even if you get a kill, you are almost always forced out immediately by a revenge killer. Other sets like Black Glasses and Bulk Up are good, but aren't as immediately threatening as CB and can similarly be played around with by defensive mons.

There also the fact the Urshifu's typing gives very few switch-in oppurtunities vs S and A Rank threats. Almost all of them can 2HKO it with one of their STAB attacks or coverage moves or cripple it with burn and paralysis. Its the only mon in A+ who has almost no switch-in opportunities and no way to get past even one status condition. This is a huge issue and prevents it from being on the same level as Clefable and Toxapex, who are virtually immune to Status and can switch into most mons with little to no worrying thanks to their better typings and Magic Guard / Regenerator.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
:Urshifu: (Water/Fight one) from C+ to B

this mons deserves a higher ranking, imho 2 subranks, as b+ is still way too much of a stretch as it finds itself only in certain archetypes rather than being a standalone mon. but with OLT going on and rain being prominent and effective enough and Urshifu-R being one of the key pkmn on this kinda team this pkmn should rise. in rain all its water-stabs are hitting with massive damage output and its signature-move in surging strikes makes it a menace on rain-oriented team structures.

:primarina:

finds itself recently on more offensive teamstyles with sub+cm rising up in popularity again this pkmn is really hard to check once it gets a boost and scald and moonblast / draining kiss are annoying enough, and with magnezone and rillaboom as good teammates it doesnt struggle too much currently to mid-late-game sweep so i would see it in a higher ranking, from C to B-.

:keldeo:

one subrank lower in my opinion, it isn't that effective in the current metagame and faces stiff competition on rain teams with azumarill, barraskewda, urshifu and kingdra. also the rise of rillaboom, primarina (sub+cm + drain-kiss-set) and teampartners like magnezone for them wont make keldeo effective in the way it wants to act. keldeo has also the problem that sun as an archetype is so common in tour- and ladder-games alike and venusaur is a big threat to it. keldeo finds itself in a very awkward place in the current metagame and it is either outclassed on certain structures or else it will find itself in a weird spot against teams like sun or offense with rilla+zone. volcarona also doesn't make keldeos life easier as it commonly runs psychic on its offensive set and the offensive set is still used a lot in general. i think therefore keldeo should drop 1 subrank from B- to C+
 
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TPP

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to S- or S rank

First of all, the following post is just my opinion and not the VR council's. I think Zeraora has proven itself to be a cut above the A+ mons and deserves to go into S- or S rank. I chose S- because I think Clef and Pex are still in a class of their own, but after seeing Boots Zeraora in world cup and in OLT, I think it deserves to raise a little bit.

Despite the initial predictions expecting Zeraora to fall with Tangrowth and Amoonguss being released, Zeraora has only gotten better imo. The biggest reason why is Heavy-Duty Boots. Boots make Zeraora extremely hard to wear down and it's also fairly difficult to safely switch into due to the only Electric immunities being Zeraora, Hippowdon, Excadrill and Rhyperior (Gastrodon too but it's less common). Most of the time you end up needing to go into Clefable or Hippowdon, the former of which will take Knock Off and then can't prevent the following Volt Switch. This is not counting the fact that Zeraora might turn out to be mixed with Grass Knot or fully special. The combo of Volt Switch + Knock Off along with avoiding chip damage thanks to Boots while simultaneously having nothing faster than makes Zeraora a very valuable mon.

The thing that annoys me the most when facing Zeraora is that it is capable of threatening nearly every single offensive mon in the tier, and it's also outsped by nothing barring priority or weather mons. Forcing it out offensively is so hard because your only options are Grassy Glide from Rillaboom, Sucker Punch from Urshifu and Bisharp, or Aqua Jet from Crawdaunt. You can use offensive mons that can tank a hit, like Kommo, Reuniclus or Rotom-Heat, but you'll end up chipped by Volt Switch first and end up in a less favorable position. It's common sense for Zeraora to switch out, but the key thing here is that double switches usually don't work against it because it can almost always Volt Switch first.

Finally, the last bit is that Zeraora is capable of naturally threatening Clefable, Toxapex and Dragapult. I think this is a big point to mention because the former 2 are the best and most common defensive mons in the tier, and the latter is one of the most common forms of speed control outside of Zeraora itself. Clefable to a degree can check Zeraora, but Knock Off + having Softboiled get PP stalled by Plasma Fist while taking the occasional Volt Switch makes it vulnerable.

If I had to make a comparison, I would say it's like Torn-T from the previous generations (fast pivot with Knock Off that keeps on staying alive). That being said, I think Zeraora may actually be a bit better because of how strong it is offensively when it comes to forcing out/revenge killing offensive mons. It's like a mix of Torn-T and your scarf revenge killer in 1 slot.

Overall I think it's the strongest offensive pivot in the game and deserves to be put into S- rank. It's the fastest mon in the tier that is capable of threatening a majority of offensive mons while providing utility in Knock Off and is excellent at generating momentum. It's capable of making progress in every game, whether it's through attacking, pivoting with Volt Switch, and/or removing items with Knock Off. I know we don't have an S- rank at the moment, but we could discuss it if there are other mons that look potent enough to rise up.

Have a nice day and a wonderful weekend.
 
it can be played around with via Rocky Helment Damage and mons that resist its moves, like Kommo-o, Clefable, Regenerator mons, and Togekiss. Most of the time, its struggling to get past its checks because so much prediction is required to get rid of them.
If it takes multiple mons to keep Urshifu-Dark in check (as well as a revenge killer) then that means it is over-centralizing as a threat AND it puts in work every game. If it takes predictions to keep Urshifu-Dark from blowing past defensive cores then, that means it brings in 50/50s; also, if the best you're doing is getting rocky helmet damage & the best Urshifu-Dark is doing is getting off an OHKO or 2HKO then that means the 50/50s are in its favor.
Burns also don't completely cripple Urshifu-Dark due to Wicked Blow's effect of always critting.
Clefable and Toxapex don't appreciate paralysis (nothing does). And early burns in Toxapex 1v1 against another Pex can go a long way. True, they can handle status way better than Urshifu-Dark but at the same time, that's not its job. Its job is to be a top tier wallbreaker, which is what neither mon is capable of doing.
 


If Zeraora rises then I see no reason for Dragapult to not rise as well. A lot of what TPP said applies to Dragapult as well. Hard to wear down because of HDB and has a momentum move in U-turn for free chip. Able to go mixed/physical/special. Pretty sure Dragon/ghost has perfect coverage except for like Bisharp and it's a good typing defensively too. If I had to pick between Zeraora and Dragapult for a team I´ll pick Dragapult almost everytime. It just has a lot more options at it's disposal and very useful resistances/immunities able to check Volcarona in an emergency. It also has DD which after a DD outspeeds Kingdra, Venusaur and Excadrill in weather and can run Substitute to get around Sucker Punch and to wall Blissey. It's hard to check because Dragon Darts technically has a higher than normal crit chance than something like Stone Edge. If one of them crits it becomes a 125 BP move. If you're switching into Dragon Darts, most of them time you´ll be outsped the next turn so that's 4 chances for atleast one of them to crit. One crit can often mean a 2HKO specially if Dragapult has LO or the rare Band. Then there's Will-O-Wisp and Thunder-Wave which goes likes bread and butter with Hex so nothing is ever guaranteed safe from this thing. That being said I think Zeraora is a great mon too, Knock Off is amazing to slowly pick apart teams and STAB Volt Switch always leaves a nice little dent on anything that isn't immune. It's a surprisingly hard mon to switch into as well because even CC hits hard. Like even if you got a Tangrowth it sucks switching into Volt Switch only to now be facing a Volcarona or something, it just completely destroys your momentum and/or traps you in a Volt Turn vortex where you often have to make some risky plays in order to escape it before you're left at a too disatvantage position.
 
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